Undead Templates

[AWiz_Abroad]

Hey All,

One of my campaigns had a fascinating development occur which is likely to dictate the party all become undead. (LONG story) However, intelligent undead who still maintain control/alignment. Like I said, long story.

For a whisper gnome stealth beguiler/wizard (eventually Ultimate magus) build, what sort of undead template would you all recommend? I'm at work and thus away from books, so please also describe the benefits.

[JoshuaZ]

Hey All,

One of my campaigns had a fascinating development occur which is likely to dictate the party all become undead. (LONG story) However, intelligent undead who still maintain control/alignment. Like I said, long story.

For a whisper gnome stealth beguiler/wizard (eventually Ultimate magus) build, what sort of undead template would you all recommend? I'm at work and thus away from books, so please also describe the benefits.

Necropolitan from Libris Mortis, the primary benefit is that there's no LA adjustment.

[JeminiZero]

Necropolitan from Libris Mortis, the primary benefit is that there's no LA adjustment.

You do however lose 1 level + 1000 XP. So it leaves you a bit behind the party, like bought off LA.

Ultimately, though, it is the "cheapest" and most straightforward undead template available. Everything else (lich, vampire, ghost, grave touched ghoul) comes with more bells and whistles, but far more LA than usually worthwhile.

Unless you get LA for free, then thats another story.

[AWiz_Abroad]

Assume LA up to +8 for free. Faerun if it makes any difference. Our Cleric just had to touch the glowing ball of negative energy. He's now a vampiric cleric of mystra (who in this version just got killed by a Shar worshipper). We have to all decide to go undead, or not, but if my Chaotic Neutral Whisper Gnome gets a choice, I'd like to know what to ask for.

Current party is level 3.

[Wookie-ranger]

Weretiger-lich or a ghost come to mind. Both are hard to kill and have some neat abilities. Still not necessarily better then +8 in class levels.

If you get +8 template for free, may be you can talk to the DM about letting you become Necropolitan and gain +6 class levels. This would come to +7 ecl (if you count Necro as LA+1) so it seams like a good deal, but you will actually gain way more power.
Even +4 class levels and Necro would be better if you ask me.

[JoshuaZ]

Wookie-Ranger makes a really good suggestion. Also, if you can't have class levels, consider filling up some of the LA with the "Evolved" template. It is in Libris Mortis and can be applied multiple times to an undead. Each application is +1 to LA. You get some nice special abilities, but the really nice bit is that you get +2 strength and +2 charisma with each use. So multiple applications can give ridiculously high charisma and strength.

The only issue is that the fluff of evolved is that it is something that happens to undead that have been around for a very long time.

[ahenobarbi]

Faerun has good liches :smalltongue:

[Suddo]

Assume LA up to +8 for free. Faerun if it makes any difference. Our Cleric just had to touch the glowing ball of negative energy. He's now a vampiric cleric of mystra (who in this version just got killed by a Shar worshipper). We have to all decide to go undead, or not, but if my Chaotic Neutral Whisper Gnome gets a choice, I'd like to know what to ask for.

Current party is level 3.

I assume you'll be gaining some crazy templates, if so I've always liked Lich. That combined with anything else that gives +4 LA/RHD would be fine (Half Dragon or something) but once you're a lich you're pretty much set. Oh and Lich will help with Ultimate Maguses being MAD.

[Wookie-ranger]

The only issue is that the fluff of evolved is that it is something that happens to undead that have been around for a very long time.

Nice idea about 'evolved undead'. Its semi-cheese but if your DM allows it for fluff reasons, as around for a crazy wizard that made himself a genesis plane with a time trait that is crazy fast (like 1 year on genesis is 1 second material).
Pay him a fee to train, study, play video games, etc on his plane for a few centuries. At this point you obviously need to be undead already. Come back a few minutes later and say hallo to your friends that you have not seen in ages (literally) as a new-and-improved (evolved) undead.

"Its the Cheese man. Its all in the Cheese" :smallcool:

[MrRigger]

If you're getting LA for free, Evolved Undead is a good template to look at for any undead, and I'll throw my hat in for Dry Lich from Sandstorm. Bonus NA, Desiccating Touch (5d6 or 5d8 against Water creatures, plus Constitution drain), fear aura, Turn Resistance, DR 10/bludgeoning and magic (not as good as a standard lich, but still uncommon type to bypass), limited fast healing, a handful of immunities, and a few other bonuses. Unfortunately, the Salt Mummies and Sand Golems they are known to produce are from the Walker in the Waste PrC, not natural to the template. Still, if you're ignoring the LA, I say go Dry Lich and Evolve it a few times.

MrRigger

[Wookie-ranger]

If you're getting LA for free, Evolved Undead is a good template to look at for any undead, and I'll throw my hat in for Dry Lich from Sandstorm. Bonus NA, Desiccating Touch (5d6 or 5d8 against Water creatures, plus Constitution drain), fear aura, Turn Resistance, DR 10/bludgeoning and magic (not as good as a standard lich, but still uncommon type to bypass), limited fast healing, a handful of immunities, and a few other bonuses. Unfortunately, the Salt Mummies and Sand Golems they are known to produce are from the Walker in the Waste PrC, not natural to the template. Still, if you're ignoring the LA, I say go Dry Lich and Evolve it a few times.

MrRigger

+1!
and don't forget:
"Unholy Toughness (Ex): A dry lich gains a bonus to its hit points equal to its Charisma bonus (minimum +1) times its Hit Dice."
Cha bonus to hp? yes please! Its incredibly hard to get this otherwise

[Madara]

Ghost, Lich, and Vampire don't come with RHD. (I don't know how anyone can have Vampire at level 3, since it requires 5 HD)

I will also vote for being a Lich(Which you wouldn't qualify for normally..)

and the Evolved Undead Template, if it is included in the free LA



The only issue is that the fluff of evolved is that it is something that happens to undead that have been around for a very long time.

It states that its been super-charged with negative energy. So, whatever this sphere thing is, could easily explain fluff-wise getting the template.

[Wavelab]

Well that sucks. You could have gone vampire if you had more levels. I agree that dry lich is pretty good. You should go dry lich and get evolved. I'd also suggest spellstitched to get animate dread warrior as a SLA, this effectively gives you an unlimited amount of undead minions.

[MrRigger]

If Lich or Dry Lich is unavailable due to Phylactery issues, you might look at Mummified Creature from Libris Mortis and Evolve it a few times. Not as good as Lich or Dry Lich, but not a bad second choice.

MrRigger

EDIT: On second thought, looking back at your classes, don't go Mummified Creature. I forgot about the -4 INT the template hits you with.

[AWiz_Abroad]

Ghost, Lich, and Vampire don't come with RHD. (I don't know how anyone can have Vampire at level 3, since it requires 5 HD)

I will also vote for being a Lich(Which you wouldn't qualify for normally..)

and the Evolved Undead Template, if it is included in the free LA



It states that its been super-charged with negative energy. So, whatever this sphere thing is, could easily explain fluff-wise getting the template.

Magic (re being a vampire at lvl 3). Vampire is an approved template, and the one the Cleric got when he picked up the orb.

As an aside, the orb is the last shard of mystra (the bit that connects to the weave albeit contaminated with a LOT of Shar style shadow Weave & Necromancy around it). The shard got ejected when Cyric killed Mystra (yeah, 1385 DR full on Spellplague setting). It's whispering in the cleric's head that it's the patch for the weave, and the whole party should touch it, become undead so the undead roaming around outside town don't kill us. We will see what the party does.

Another note. Alignment for intelligent undead is not restricted. We've already met a vampiric paladin of Selûne.

[Madara]

I think I'll stand by Lich in that case. I suppose you could go Dry Lich as well, but there's something about the classic feel.

[CelestialStick]

Assume LA up to +8 for free. Faerun if it makes any difference. Our Cleric just had to touch the glowing ball of negative energy. He's now a vampiric cleric of mystra (who in this version just got killed by a Shar worshipper). We have to all decide to go undead, or not, but if my Chaotic Neutral Whisper Gnome gets a choice, I'd like to know what to ask for.

Current party is level 3.

In our campaign it wasn't a worshipper of Shar who killed Mystra; it was the evil god Cynric who put his sword through her heart at the "witching hour," which in his campaign is 2 AM (instead of the standard midnight), and Mystra was "the Witch." That mirrors the story of the Spellplague, although as our DM hates 4e I'm not sure he got it from the Spellplague.

I also don't think we get to choose which undead we become if we touch the black orb--I think it will just turn us into vampires. I mean, maybe it can be reasoned with and allow us to take some other form that can pass for humanoid, since the reason it changed our cleric from bone creature to vampire was so that he could pass as human and not get attacked wherever he went.

The DM said that if we all did it, he would ignore the +8 level adjustment for being a vampire and just have us all advance normally. If you could talk it into giving you an undead template with a lower level adjustment, I'm not sure if the DM would allow you extra levels or force us to take a higher level adjustment, but I think his preference is that we're all vampires. Remember that he loves whatever that latest vampire show is.

Anyway it sounds like the player of the cleric 1. doesn't want to play a vampire cleric and 2. doesn't want to play the same cleric character now that his goddess has dead and the overarching story line has pretty much ruined his character's intended story line from his perspective.

If I were a power gamer I might take the free +8 level adjustment. Imagine stacking the vampire benefits on top of the astral deva benefits! From a role-playing perspective, my guy doesn't buy into the whole "undead are just a different form of life and not evil" thing anyway, and isn't about to voluntarily turn himself into an undead. I mean it should be impossible anyway, since vampirism doesn't work on outsiders, but even though the DM has said he'll allow the artifact to do it, it's not in his character.

The one player of a (still) human character too said that he doesn't fancy turning his character into a vampire either.



I think I'll stand by Lich in that case. I suppose you could go Dry Lich as well, but there's something about the classic feel.

Even if the orb allowed some other form besides vampire (which the DM loves), it would have to be one that can pass for humanoid because that was the whole reason it turned him from a bone creature into a vampire when he accepted "the Patch" (for the Weave). So incorporeal and skeletal forms are out.

[Madara]

Liches can pass for humanoid, they aren't skeletal. Unless you don't take good care of yourself. Remember, at first, your body is the same, then it ages. So use some magic to counter-act that.

[MrRigger]

Disguise is also a Beguiler Class Skill, Disguise can help hide your undeadness. Or any other undead you may happen to create. "No, of course my manservant isn't a zombie! He's just taken a vow of silence... and no bathing. I tried to talk him out of the second part."

MrRigger

[Wookie-ranger]

Liches can pass for humanoid, they aren't skeletal. Unless you don't take good care of yourself. Remember, at first, your body is the same, then it ages. So use some magic to counter-act that.

If i remember correctly there is something called a "Living Lich". That looks like it did in life, and uses its own body as a Phylactery, if any part of the body the Lich reforms.
Not sure which book though, will try to find it.

Edit:
OK didn't take long, found it right away.
Its in the book "Secret College of Necromancy" its 3rd party.
p.57

[CelestialStick]

Liches can pass for humanoid, they aren't skeletal. Unless you don't take good care of yourself. Remember, at first, your body is the same, then it ages. So use some magic to counter-act that.

From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm


A lich is a gaunt and skeletal humanoid with withered flesh stretched tight across horribly visible bones. Its eyes have long ago been lost to decay, but bright pinpoints of crimson light burn on in the empty sockets.

[Keld Denar]

Nothing a good pair of sunglasses can't fix. Look cool and hide your creepy side all in one easy action! Its functional fashion! Plus, then you get to sing a certain song when you refuse to take them off at night...

[Madara]

Originally Posted by SRD
A lich is a gaunt and skeletal humanoid with withered flesh stretched tight across horribly visible bones. Its eyes have long ago been lost to decay, but bright pinpoints of crimson light burn on in the empty sockets.

It suggests a transformation based on time and Decay. Plus that text is in the fluff, not actually the area under "Creating a Lich"

[Larkas]

I wonder if Gentle Repose works on the body of a Lich? If so, you'd have the most human-like undead possible.

[CelestialStick]

It suggests a transformation based on time and Decay. Plus that text is in the fluff, not actually the area under "Creating a Lich"

It amazes me that anyone can read "skeletal" and "horribly visible bones" and maintain that it's not skeletal.

[Madara]

It amazes me that anyone can read "skeletal" and "horribly visible bones" and maintain that it's not skeletal.

I'm saying that when you first become a Lich, you don't just super-auto decay. It happens because you're around for hundreds of years.

[JoshuaZ]

Libris Mortis seems to imply based on some of the sample lichs that in fact a lich does start off looking essentially human and that the classical skeletal lich only occurs as the body decays over time. For example, on page 153 there is "Durak the Eternal" who is described as:



Durak is now a relatively young lich, having experienced the transformation mere months ago. He appears mostly human, if a bit pale and sunken-eyed.


This supports the interpretation that a lich looks essentially normal until after they've had time to rot.

[Wookie-ranger]

This supports the interpretation that a lich looks essentially normal until after they've had time to rot.

Agreed. i also think that a Lich does not auto-transform into a skeleton.

Also:
easy way to not decay and gain +1 on saving throws.

From SRD:

Unguent of Timelessness
When applied to any matter that was once alive this ointment allows that substance to resist the passage of time. Each year of actual time affects the substance as if only a day had passed. The coated object gains a +1 resistance bonus on all saving throws. The unguent never wears off, although it can be magically removed (by dispelling the effect, for instance). One flask contains enough material to coat eight Medium or smaller objects. A Large object counts as two Medium objects, and a Huge object counts as two Large objects.

Faint transmutation; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item; Price 150 gp.

Bold me.

Cheese? may be, but it is as RAW as they come! :smallbiggrin:

[JoshuaZ]

Cheese? may be, but it is as RAW as they come! :smallbiggrin:[/SPOILER]

Why is that cheesy? It seems like something a lich that cared about passing in public or had any vanity might do. And it isn't like it ends up helping that much- the mechanical benefits are pretty small.

[CelestialStick]

I'm saying that when you first become a Lich, you don't just super-auto decay. It happens because you're around for hundreds of years.



Libris Mortis seems to imply based on some of the sample lichs that in fact a lich does start off looking essentially human and that the classical skeletal lich only occurs as the body decays over time. For example, on page 153 there is "Durak the Eternal" who is described as:



This supports the interpretation that a lich looks essentially normal until after they've had time to rot.

While it might be logical to infer that a lich starts basically humanoid and then decays, other than the suggestion in Libris Mortus there's been no history of liches as anything but skeletal. I'm looking at my old copy of D&D Supplement I: Greyhawk, which first introduced the lich, which says on p. 35, "LICHES: These skeletal creatures..." Here too "The mere sight of a Lich will send creatures below 5th level fleeing in fear."

The AD&D Monster Manual keeps the "mere sight of a lich" language, and says, "Description: A lich appears very much as does a wight or mummy, being of skeletal form, eye sockets mere black holes with glowing points of light, and garments often rotting." The 3.5 lich not only keeps the reference to skeletal but also the fear from merely looking at a lich, so there's no way a lich could pass for a humanoid.

[JoshuaZ]

While it might be logical to infer that a lich starts basically humanoid and then decays, other than the suggestion in Libris Mortus there's been no history of liches as anything but skeletal. I'm looking at my old copy of D&D Supplement I: Greyhawk, which first introduced the lich, which says on p. 35, "LICHES: These skeletal creatures..." Here too "The mere sight of a Lich will send creatures below 5th level fleeing in fear."

The AD&D Monster Manual keeps the "mere sight of a lich" language, and says, "Description: A lich appears very much as does a wight or mummy, being of skeletal form, eye sockets mere black holes with glowing points of light, and garments often rotting." The 3.5 lich not only keeps the reference to skeletal but also the fear from merely looking at a lich, so there's no way a lich could pass for a humanoid.

Yes, and a lot of the standard descriptions of lichs are assuming that the lich has been around for a long time. Given the LM material and the other material quoted, it seems reasonable that those other properties of a lich show up later as the lich is rotting. There is not as far as I'm aware any material which talks about the lich transformation which mentions some sort of ultrafast decay or the like, although certainly some 3rd party sources (e.g. Start of Darkness) do have something like that.

[Wookie-ranger]

The AD&D Monster Manual keeps the "mere sight of a lich" language, and says, "Description: A lich appears very much as does a wight or mummy, being of skeletal form, eye sockets mere black holes with glowing points of light, and garments often rotting." The 3.5 lich not only keeps the reference to skeletal but also the fear from merely looking at a lich, so there's no way a lich could pass for a humanoid.

If you are referring to the fear aura, in 3.5 this has nothing to do with the pure visual image of the Lich. This is may be debatable, but by RAW it does not.
SRD:
Fear Aura (Su)
Liches are shrouded in a dreadful aura of death and evil. Creatures of less than 5 HD in a 60-foot radius that look at the lich must succeed on a Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell from a sorcerer of the lich’s level. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same lich’s aura for 24 hours.
Bold Mine.

the question is:
WHY would the Lich look like a skeleton?
is it part of the transformation? Is it simply time that wares away at it?

Anyway:
Buy a Hat of Disguise and be done with it.
If that is not enough, there are enough Illusion spells that can help you. And if this is STILL not enough, just buy a heavy cloak/full plate/mask/etc in D&D you see all sorts of people for all sort of cultures, an man in a full mask and hooded cloak a shouldn't draw too much attention.

[Madara]

I know there's one official source that talks about the actual ritual...maybe it was BoVD?

[CelestialStick]

If you are referring to the fear aura, in 3.5 this has nothing to do with the pure visual image of the Lich. This is may be debatable, but by RAW it does not.
SRD:
Fear Aura (Su)
Liches are shrouded in a dreadful aura of death and evil. Creatures of less than 5 HD in a 60-foot radius that look at the lich must succeed on a Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell from a sorcerer of the lich’s level. A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same lich’s aura for 24 hours.
Bold Mine.

the question is:
WHY would the Lich look like a skeleton?
is it part of the transformation? Is it simply time that wares away at it?

Anyway:
Buy a Hat of Disguise and be done with it.
If that is not enough, there are enough Illusion spells that can help you. And if this is STILL not enough, just buy a heavy cloak/full plate/mask/etc in D&D you see all sorts of people for all sort of cultures, an man in a full mask and hooded cloak a shouldn't draw too much attention.

You still have to look at the lich for the fear aura to take effect. The description still says that the lich is skeletal. There's a 30-year history of liches being skeletal, and nothing but one mention in one non-core book that they're anything but skeletal.


I know there's one official source that talks about the actual ritual...maybe it was BoVD?

I did a quick look in the Book of Vile Darkness and didn't spot anything, although I might have just missed my Spot check (or Perception check, if you're playing Pathfinder, or whatever it might be if you're playing 4e). :smallbiggrin:

Draconomicon does say a bit about the ritual of creating a dracolich, and then says that a dracolich is skeletal or semi-skeletal.

[Madara]

You still have to look at the lich for the fear aura to take effect. The description still says that the lich is skeletal. There's a 30-year history of liches being skeletal, and nothing but one mention in one non-core book that they're anything but skeletal.

Your referencing Old Sources doesn't help much. Also, None-Core doesn't disqualify a book, and LM is The Book of Undead, if anything it is more reliable than a bit of flavor text before a template entry.

Non-Core of 3.5 > Previous Editions(They aren't even 3.0!)

[CelestialStick]

Your referencing Old Sources doesn't help much. Also, None-Core doesn't disqualify a book, and LM is The Book of Undead, if anything it is more reliable than a bit of flavor text before a template entry.

Non-Core of 3.5 > Previous Editions(They aren't even 3.0!)

What's more reliable is 30 years of D&D history and an SRD that says "skeletal." A lich is and has always been a skeletal creature, regardless of what some authors who didn't bother to read the SRD implied in some late product.

[Madara]

What's more reliable is 30 years of D&D history and an SRD that says "skeletal." A lich is and has always been a skeletal creature, regardless of what some authors who didn't bother to read the SRD implied in some late product.

Non-Core is not "Late", and RAW is not based on previous editions(With the exception of 3.0). Books outside of core expand on and correct Core. In this case, the Book dedicated to the undead. These authors did read the Lich template in the Monster Manual because they made sample enemies with the template in the back.


So in the end we have two bits of fluff text conflicting. By crunch, the only penalty to disguise would be trying to disguise yourself as another type.

[CelestialStick]

Non-Core is not "Late", and RAW is not based on previous editions(With the exception of 3.0). Books outside of core expand on and correct Core. In this case, the Book dedicated to the undead. These authors did read the Lich template in the Monster Manual because they made sample enemies with the template in the back.


So in the end we have two bits of fluff text conflicting. By crunch, the only penalty to disguise would be trying to disguise yourself as another type.

A lich is what it's always been, and what the description still says it is: a skeletal creature. It cannot pass for a humanoid, period.

If my buddy's whisper gnome voluntarily touched the DarkLife orb, it would transform her into what it wanted her to be, as it did when the cleric holding the orb voluntarily accepted "the Patch." If the whisper gnome has means to essentially permanently disguise herself, then perhaps she could talk the Patch into transforming her into a lich instead of a vampire, but keep in mind that the DM changed the whole "undead are evil" specifically because he likes one of the current, popular vampire TV shows and that there's no particular non-metagame reason to prefer to be a lich, so most likely the DM and the Patch wouldn't do it. :smallbiggrin:

I think it's likely moot, furthermore, because the player running the cleric who got transformed, the player running the human scout, and the player running the astral deva, do not want to play a campaign where everyone's character is an undead, even if we can all be good-aligned. From what the player playing the now-vampire cleric said after the session, even if we could restore his character and release him from the Patch, with Mystra dead, he really wouldn't want to play the character anymore.

[JoshuaZ]

A lich is what it's always been, and what the description still says it is: a skeletal creature. It cannot pass for a humanoid, period.

So at this point you aren't actually making an argument, you are just repeating your prior conclusion. You have not addressed the fact that a book specifically about undead has other lichs and essentially describes why a lich might not be skeletal. You haven't given any mechanism for why the lich transformation process would make you skeletal. Never underestimate the importance of being able to say oops. (http://lesswrong.com/lw/i9/the_importance_of_saying_oops/)

[Gavinfoxx]

I'll Second Dry Lich / Evolved Undead.

[Madara]

Seriously Joshua? You made the flat-out wrong statement that a lich isn't skeletal when the Monster Manual and SRD say otherwise, and you're telling me that I should say oops? Just admit that you were wrong from the start, and that after all of your false arguments and now insults you're still wrong, and then call it an evening like an adult.

:smallsigh:

That's not what he's saying. We're saying that it doesn't immediately happen. We're saying that description applies to aged Liches, which most versions assume to be the case. We've give evidence from the same edition, from the official source on the Undead in 3.5. Let's just leave the evidence laid out for other to decide on their own from.

[CelestialStick]

:smallsigh:

That's not what he's saying. We're saying that it doesn't immediately happen. We're saying that description applies to aged Liches, which most versions assume to be the case. We've give evidence from the same edition, from the official source on the Undead in 3.5. Let's just leave the evidence laid out for other to decide on their own from.

While I said that it might be logical to assume such a thing, there's only one throw-away line in one non-core book to that effect in one version of the game, while everything else in D&D for 30 years has said that liches are skeletal. In any case anyone looking at a lich knows immediately from the fear it evokes that it's not just a humanoid, and the whole point of the DarkLight orb changing the cleric from a bone creature to a vampire was to make him passable as humanoid so he wouldn't get attacked by the good as well as the evil on his way to trying to restore the Weave.

[Madara]

While I said that it might be logical to assume such a thing, there's only one throw-away line in one non-core book to that effect in one version of the game, while everything else in D&D for 30 years has said that liches are skeletal. In any case anyone looking at a lich knows immediately from the fear it evokes that it's not just a humanoid, and the whole point of the DarkLight orb changing the cleric from a bone creature to a vampire was to make him passable as humanoid so he wouldn't get attacked by the good as well as the evil on his way to trying to restore the Weave.

:smallsigh: You don't understand. 30 years of DnD is not the same as something from the same edition.(And 'Everything' is definitely an overstatement.)

Humans can be described as "Skeletal" and "Gaunt", so to say they are skeletal doesn't mean they mostly resemble Skeletons.

[CelestialStick]

:smallsigh: You don't understand. 30 years of DnD is not the same as something from the same edition.(And 'Everything' is definitely an overstatement.)

Humans can be described as "Skeletal" and "Gaunt", so to say they are skeletal doesn't mean they mostly resemble Skeletons.

Yes, it's better. When you're older you'll understand the value of historicity. :smallsmile:

[JoshuaZ]

I'm not sure where you think I've insulted you, but if I did so, I apologize- there was no insult intended.


While I said that it might be logical to assume such a thing, there's only one throw-away line in one non-core book to that effect in one version of the game, while everything else in D&D for 30 years has said that liches are skeletal.

Actually, I can give you other lines also from Libris Mortis that are similar, so no, it isn't a throwaway. And yes, it is a non-core book, that's true- it is also the book that focuses on undeath. Madara and others have already pointed out that in context it looks like the other material is talking about the stereotypical, ancient lich.

There is incidentally one other book which does support you slightly. The Heroes of Horror description of the Dread Necromancer describes the transformation to a lich as a "hideous transformation", which could be weakly read as implying an immediate skeletalization or something similar.



In any case anyone looking at a lich knows immediately from the fear it evokes that it's not just a humanoid

Yes, this is potentially a problem. There are ways of dealing with the fear effect but they take work.

[CelestialStick]

I'm not sure where you think I've insulted you, but if I did so, I apologize- there was no insult intended.

Thanks. I went ahead and deleted that one post of mine.


Actually, I can give you other lines also from Libris Mortis that are similar, so no, it isn't a throwaway. And yes, it is a non-core book, that's true- it is also the book that focuses on undeath. Madara and others have already pointed out that in context it looks like the other material is talking about the stereotypical, ancient lich.

There is incidentally one other book which does support you slightly. The Heroes of Horror description of the Dread Necromancer describes the transformation to a lich as a "hideous transformation", which could be weakly read as implying an immediate skeletalization or something similar.



Yes, this is potentially a problem. There are ways of dealing with the fear effect but they take work.

Okay, fair enough on Libris Mortis, and since I said it could be logical that they start out looking more human and slowly degenerate, it might make sense that the previous 30 years of lich material referred only to the standard aged lich. ("Naturally aged with the finest of woods." :smallbiggrin:) I really do think, however, that until Libris Mortis, people generally thought of the lich as becoming skeletal or at least semi-skeletal as a result of the transformation, which seems to be what the authors are saying about the dracolich in Draconomicon. I don't have Heroes of Horror but thanks for the reference.

Sure, it's probably possible for her to hide herself if she's a lich. I don't think she'll want to clank around in full plate, although a mask and gloves might do the trick by themselves. I'm not sure the DarkLight orb would give her a choice though as to what sort of undead it would transform her into. Initially it transformed both the priestess of the shrine of Mystra and the cleric of Mystra into bone creatures. When the cleric communed with the orb and accepted the Patch, it transformed him into a vampire so he could still pass for human. He didn't get to choose.

Our choice of magic items too so far has been limited. We can't just go ask the magic-item makers for things our characters have never heard of before. So we couldn't go to them and say, "Can I get a hat of disguise?" I guess if someone weren't undead yet he or she could ask for an item that allows her to disguise herself, and maybe the front-office guy would tell her and sell one.

I have a feeling though that DM wouldn't allow this sort of meta-gaming anyway. I also think that the other players aren't going to go the undead route so that we're going to end up retiring the undead character so that nobody will be undead in the party.

[danzibr]

Disguise is also a Beguiler Class Skill, Disguise can help hide your undeadness. Or any other undead you may happen to create. "No, of course my manservant isn't a zombie! He's just taken a vow of silence... and no bathing. I tried to talk him out of the second part."

MrRigger

Nothing a good pair of sunglasses can't fix. Look cool and hide your creepy side all in one easy action! Its functional fashion! Plus, then you get to sing a certain song when you refuse to take them off at night...
Ahh worth some good lolz.

[CelestialStick]

Disguise is also a Beguiler Class Skill, Disguise can help hide your undeadness. Or any other undead you may happen to create. "No, of course my manservant isn't a zombie! He's just taken a vow of silence... and no bathing. I tried to talk him out of the second part."

MrRigger

That is humorous, plus the Disguise skill might be a possibility. I wonder though how it would work with a lich's fear aura. I mean you have to look at the lich to get affected, but would a failed Spot check against Disguise actually stop the fear aura?

[Urpriest]

Honestly, Liches started out skeletal, but they only stayed skeletal in computer games. I rather strongly doubt that Good Liches (FR-specific, so as old as 2e at least) were all described as resembling skeletons. The concept has evolved, both closer to its core logic and into something more interesting. Many monsters do this. Before Lords of Madness, were Mind Flayers time travelers from the future?

[CelestialStick]

Honestly, Liches started out skeletal, but they only stayed skeletal in computer games. I rather strongly doubt that Good Liches (FR-specific, so as old as 2e at least) were all described as resembling skeletons. The concept has evolved, both closer to its core logic and into something more interesting. Many monsters do this. Before Lords of Madness, were Mind Flayers time travelers from the future?

Since the description in the 3.5 Monster Manual calls them skeletal, they've remained skeletal everywhere but in Libris Mortis. Saying that mind-flayers are time travelers from the future doesn't conflict with the core of what mind-flayers have always been, so the mind-flayer addition in Lords of Madness doesn't actually parallel the lich change in Libris Mortis. I mean there probably is one parallel: most DMs probably ignore or don't even know about the non-standard material about either creature in these non-core books. :smallsmile:

[Wookie-ranger]

Since the description in the 3.5 Monster Manual calls them skeletal, they've remained skeletal everywhere but in Libris Mortis. Saying that mind-flayers are time travelers from the future doesn't conflict with the core of what mind-flayers have always been, so the mind-flayer addition in Lords of Madness doesn't actually parallel the lich change in Libris Mortis. I mean there probably is one parallel: most DMs probably ignore or don't even know about the non-standard material about either creature in these non-core books. :smallsmile:

Its his (or more accurately his DMs) Game, If he wants Liches to decay naturally, let him; if you wants to make all Liches insta-decay (be it for fluff or part of the ritual) so be it.

BTW:
From MM1, p.166
"Like its body, however, the garb of a Lich shows all too well the weights of year."

By your logic all clothing that a Lich PC puts on insta-decays because it says so in the description. or am i missing something? :smallconfused:

[CelestialStick]

Its his (or more accurately his DMs) Game, If he wants Liches to decay naturally, let him; if you wants to make all Liches insta-decay (be it for fluff or part of the ritual) so be it.

BTW:
From MM1, p.166
"Like its body, however, the garb of a Lich shows all too well the weights of year."

By your logic all clothing that a Lich PC puts on insta-decays because it says so in the description. or am i missing something? :smallconfused:

Well it's actually our DM's game. :smallsmile:

In the original description of the lich it actually says that the liches robes are rich (but sometimes rotting) suggesting that only some of the time has the lich been around long enough to have rotting robes. It's more likely that they dropped the "sometimes" out of carelessness or lack of space than as a deliberate change to the idea that liches transform immediately into skeletal creatures, especially since the drawings and the description but indicated skeletal. :smallsmile:

[Wookie-ranger]

In the original description of the lich it actually says that the liches robes are rich (but sometimes rotting) suggesting that only some of the time has the lich been around long enough to have rotting robes. It's more likely that they dropped the "sometimes" out of carelessness or lack of space than as a deliberate change to the idea that liches transform immediately into skeletal creatures, especially since the drawings and the description but indicated skeletal. :smallsmile:
Bold mine.

What do you mean by Original Description? In MM1 there is no such entry; and citing a description in a previous editions is not a valid point for an argument about 3.5.
It makes no sense combining editions.
There is no dual-classing in 3.5, Elves don't have Infravision in 3.5, and Wizards are not nerfed as in 4.0.
3.5 is 3.5, that's it, nothing else; its not AD&D, 2.0, PF, 4.0 and not even 3.0.
Sorry that I might sound like a d**k about this, but I have had very many discussions about this and they never end well.


So. what are the arguments for (pro) a Lich being skeletal in 3.5 and against (con)? (just to list a few that come to mind)

Pro: The description in MM1 as well as SRD state that it is "gaunt and skeletal humanoid with withered flesh stretched tight across horribly visible bones"

Con (and counter): it also explicitly states that "Its eyes have long ago been lost to decay", therefore giving an explicit reason why the Lich is Loosing body parts; through decay, taking a long time.

Pro: The fear aura states that "Creatures [...] that look at the lich", hinting at the horrible appearance of the Lich.

Con (and counter): It has a Fear Aura bc "Liches are shrouded in a dreadful aura of death and evil", it does not say anywhere that it is because of the visual image of the lich, only a line of sight aura. also: a skeleton or zombie looks very similar to a very old lich, and they don't get the aura.

Pro: The Picture in the MM1 looks like it.

Con (and counter): so? does that mean that every monster has to look exactly look like the picture?

Con: Libris Mortis (published by WotC and 3.5) has multiple examples of Liches that are not (yet) skeletal. To list a few: p.153 Dallia Thistledown, the whole first paragraph states that she looks like a normal halfling (even though she does have disguise self on her spell list), and as already mentioned Durak the Eternal, "appears mostly human, if a bit pale and suken-eyed".

Con: In the entry for creating a Lich it does not say that the base creature needs to have a skeleton (as it does in the 'Skeleton' monster entry) there fore you can make a Lich out of any humanoid creature, even if it does not have a skeleton, therefore it simply cannot be skeletal.

Pro: in previous/3rd part descriptions it said so. (added for completeness, not to be mean)

Con (and counter): Irrelevant, see rant above.

[Urpriest]

I think regardless we can drop the fear aura argument, since it's Su and the Lich has it regardless of form.

[dascarletm]

In the original description of the lich it actually says that the liches robes are rich (but sometimes rotting) suggesting that only some of the time has the lich been around long enough to have rotting robes. It's more likely that they dropped the "sometimes" out of carelessness or lack of space than as a deliberate change to the idea that liches transform immediately into skeletal creatures, especially since the drawings and the description but indicated skeletal. :smallsmile:

The description is intended to let you tell your players what they see if they were to happen across a lich. It isn't a end all, ALL LICHES LOOK JUST LIKE THIS!

Your argument is, and correct me if I'm wrong, that because the description text says it looks like something then all of that creature look like that.

Logically if we follow your line of reasoning, all Elves wear, "Armor with a natural, forest-themed design that appears organic instead of worked and crafted." So do all elven wizards suffer from arcane spell failure?
Dwarves are described in the monster manual as having black hair. Do all dwarves have black hair? Can some have red?

(granted those were the description text and not in the body of the creature, but for elves they give a "how they live," which isn't universal.)

The worst part of this discussion is that people argue these things all the time. I think now-a-days 3.5 players have played for so long that most have begun to take the rule system and wrap some role-playing around it; instead of roleplaying a story and having some rules to help out.

BAH! I'll stop before I rant any longer.