sha'ir

[Ashtagon]

The sha'ir was a variant wizard introduced in the Al-Qadim setting. He had access to every spell list (yes, even that one), but only if he had personally witnessed the spell being cast. IN addition, he could only have one spell readied at a time. Preparing a spell could be done at any time, and involved asking his 'familiar' to fetch the spell, a process would could take 1d6+x rounds for a basic spell, or that many hours for high-power or obscure magics.

Was it ever converted to 3e?

Where on the tier power level would it be?

[Psyren]

Yes, they were converted to 3.5 in Dragon Compendium.

They're quite powerful; early levels can be a chore when they can't hold onto the spells very long and haven't seen much magic, but mid-late their potential repertoire starts to expand rapidly. They can also cast divine spells, which can have interesting implications with theurges.

Tier-wise I would put them at 2 or 1.

[DogbertLinc]

It did, and the best source for it is the Dragon Magazine Compendium. Some of its wacky spell preparing methods was retained, which makes it very annoying to play at low levels.

[SSGoW]

Sounds versitile tho not handy in combat since by the time he gets a 2nd spell the battle. Would be over... You did say he could only have one spell readied right? As in he casts one spell then says "oh no I'm out of spells... Familiar gto get me a spell!"?

I've never heard of this* but homebrew might have something.

Do you have a link to the actual class?

Edit: But aparently other people have :p

[sreservoir]

Yes, they were converted to 3.5 in Dragon Compendium.

They're quite powerful; early levels can be a chore when they can't hold onto the spells very long and haven't seen much magic, but mid-late their potential repertoire starts to expand rapidly. They can also cast divine spells, which can have interesting implications with theurges.

Tier-wise I would put them at 2 or 1.

decidedly tier 1. 1d6+X minutes for a situational spell is more or less negligible unless you need to get a lot of spells at a time, and the spells you'll want often and quickly can go on spells known.

so you have situational spells on tap whenever, just pump diplomacy and it's 15 minutes at most for any single spell, which is comparable to the wizard's minimum 15 minutes to prepare. even at 20th, you can prepare all your spells in probably less than an hour from known, and your prep time is almost directly proportional to the spells you prepare -- unlike the wizard, you don't have a 15 minute minimum, so you can just load up on the spells likely to be needed at time-critical times, and prep the rest on the fly.

in short, once you have a few levels, you can pretty much act like a prepared caster.

[Psyren]

decidedly tier 1. 1d6+X minutes for a situational spell is more or less negligible unless you need to get a lot of spells at a time, and the spells you'll want often and quickly can go on spells known.

so you have situational spells on tap whenever, just pump diplomacy and it's 15 minutes at most for any single spell, which is comparable to the wizard's minimum 15 minutes to prepare. even at 20th, you can prepare all your spells in probably less than an hour from known, and your prep time is almost directly proportional to the spells you prepare -- unlike the wizard, you don't have a 15 minute minimum, so you can just load up on the spells likely to be needed at time-critical times, and prep the rest on the fly.

in short, once you have a few levels, you can pretty much act like a prepared caster.

The trouble here is scaling though. At low levels they can't hold onto their spells all day (plus you're more likely to fail the check, forcing you to try again) so you can frequently end up needing a spell during or immediately prior to combat and not having the time to get it until combat is over. In addition, for spells outside their repertoire they need to have seen them cast to call them. So early on, they play much more like sorcerers - needing to rely more on their spells known for a given situation, with less room for out-of-box utility.

I'd be more likely to say that they start out T2 and move to T1 later.

[CTrees]

Just backstory could lead to ridiculous swings in power. "Yeah, there was this adventuring group? One of them took Leadership, and I did a stint as a follower. One of the guys was this wizard/archivist/mystic theurge? Cast like every spell ever. I made sure I stayed with them, helped be a pack mule. Even if I didn't gain any experience (hey, follower), just the spells I saw made it sooo worth it."

[Ashtagon]

Just backstory could lead to ridiculous swings in power. "Yeah, there was this adventuring group? One of them took Leadership, and I did a stint as a follower. One of the guys was this wizard/archivist/mystic theurge? Cast like every spell ever. I made sure I stayed with them, helped be a pack mule. Even if I didn't gain any experience (hey, follower), just the spells I saw made it sooo worth it."

That backstory wouldn't make sense in 2e, which lacks those funky classes. Also, the setting makes it improbable that you would have adventured with a foreign wizard or priest. And even if you had, 2e wizards had hard limits on the number of spells known, and if you tried to fetch priest spells, you risked the literal wrath of the gods.

[Andorax]

Or, if you have the magazines themselves...

Issue 315, January 2004. The "Campaign Classics" issue that introduces a 3.5 element for a host of different settings from the Defilers of darksun to rules for Birthright bloodlines to a new Ghostwalk faction.



I can't post the article wholesale, but just to give you a general idea...

Spells per day is still limited (looks to be just a hair better than a generalist wizard).

Charisma based caster similar to a sorceror. Limited list of sorc/wiz spells "known" that can be retrieved within rounds, but access to sorc/wiz spells unknown but seen (and successfully identified by Spellcraft) that can be retrieved within minutes, or divine spells (from a limited list of domains, not generally open) that can be retrieved...within hours. Memory of the spell remains for 1 hour per caster level.

Metamagics are allowed (if the Sha'ir has the metamagic feat), but the spell has to be 'fetched' with the proper metamagic feat applied.

There's nothing about only being able to have only one spell retrieved at a time. The way I read it, once retrieved, a spell becomes a "memorized" spell in that spell slot, but if it runs out of time it 'drains away' and the slot is open again.


Example:

A 3rd level Sha'ir has "magic missile" as one of his first level spells known. He sends his Gen (tiny elemental genie familiar that you're 100% dependant on) to fetch it for him. It takes 1d4+1 rounds and a successful diplomacy check (by you) to obtain it, and he has it "available" to cast for the next 3 hours. He could send the Gen back out 3 more times and fill all four 1st level slots with Magic Missile, but then he's stuck for the next 3 hours with those choices...since technically, there is no rule about releasing a retrieved spell without casting it that I can see (a reasonable DM's ruling).

That same Sha'ir now wants to cast Web (a 3rd level Sha'ir has no 2nds "known") because he saw it cast once and made his Spellcraft check to identify it being cast. This time, it takes the Gen 1d6+2 minutes to track down the spell and deliver it to the Sha'ir...and it, too, remains in memory for 3 hours.

Finally, he decides he wants to cast Aid (a 2nd level divine spell from the Luck domain, one of the allowed domains). He'd better want it rather badly, becuase his Gen will be gone for the next 1d6+2 hours trying to barter with the genies for access to it.



An interesting class, definately T2 since it is essentially a sorcerer/wizard hybrid. The divine spells might as well not even be available, since they are limited in number (handful of domains) and hard to get for non-downtime use, but being able to take a few minutes to load-up the spells you want to use, then going to town with them...it makes for an odd sorc/wizard hybrid. It's a lot like a wizard who keeps a lot of spell slots open and memorizes into them during the day.

And for what it matters PrC-wise...yes, it casts divine spells. Not divine-as-arcane, if it fetches Aid, it casts Aid as a 100% genuine divine spell. Unfortunately, it loses out on class features designed to support its class (such as adding your Sha'ir level to your diplomacy check to fetch spells) by PrCing...PrCs that grant Diplomacy as a skill are recommended.

The only real crippling design flaw is the dependance on having maximized Spellcraft (to identify new spells and add them to your "seen and identified but not officially known" list), Diplomacy (for successful recovery) and Concentration (spellcaster...that's a given) on a 2+I Cha-based caster.

[sreservoir]

The trouble here is scaling though. At low levels they can't hold onto their spells all day (plus you're more likely to fail the check, forcing you to try again) so you can frequently end up needing a spell during or immediately prior to combat and not having the time to get it until combat is over. In addition, for spells outside their repertoire they need to have seen them cast to call them. So early on, they play much more like sorcerers - needing to rely more on their spells known for a given situation, with less room for out-of-box utility.

I'd be more likely to say that they start out T2 and move to T1 later.

well, by the same criteria, wizards, which need to add spells to their spellbooks before they can prepare them, also begin t2 and move to t1.

which is not inaccurate, really.

the short spell retention is a pain, though, yes. it's not too different from simply running out of spells on any other caster, though, it's just more likely to happen.

it also can vary quite a bit based on your reading of what happens if a spell times out -- if you lose the slot, that kind of sucks; but if you just have to refill it, that's quite nice. talk to dm, and so on.

[Psyren]

There's nothing about only being able to have only one spell retrieved at a time. The way I read it, once retrieved, a spell becomes a "memorized" spell in that spell slot, but if it runs out of time it 'drains away' and the slot is open again.

Yeah, this is how I read it - so long as you stay within your spells/day limit, if a spell expires you can re-fetch it. The problem is keeping it around at low levels; at around level 8 this ceases to be an issue.


well, by the same criteria, wizards, which need to add spells to their spellbooks before they can prepare them, also begin t2 and move to t1.

which is not inaccurate, really.

Not sure I agree. Say you adventure 5 days a week, that gives the wizard weekends to scribe into his book. The Sha'ir must "scribe" daily; at low levels, he actually must scribe multiple times/day, or else walk around with nothing in his head. For spells that take minutes/hours to retrieve this is not feasible during or just before combat. This forces them to rely on their repertoire, effectively making them sorcerers.


the short spell retention is a pain, though, yes. it's not too different from simply running out of spells on any other caster, though, it's just more likely to happen.

The difference is that other casters have to actually use their spells to run out. The Sha'ir can find himself short of a needed spell at a critical time. (The tradeoff of course is that he can dig up a needed spell at a critical time too.)



it also can vary quite a bit based on your reading of what happens if a spell times out -- if you lose the slot, that kind of sucks; but if you just have to refill it, that's quite nice. talk to dm, and so on.

As I said above, I definitely follow the "refill" interpretation, so that's a point in the class' favor.

[CTrees]

Ah... so the 3.X update changed it significantly from how I was thinking (having never actually encountered the class). Still an interesting variant (and possibly a good blue mage, for people trying to build that Final Fantasy archetype?)

[TheGeckoKing]

Could someone quickly clarify how the Sha'ir works? The way I'm reading it, they have a list of Spells Known, but can ALSO send their familiar to go get them a spell if it's not on their Spells Known.

[Psyren]

Could someone quickly clarify how the Sha'ir works? The way I'm reading it, they have a list of Spells Known, but can ALSO send their familiar to go get them a spell if it's not on their Spells Known.

Not quite; Sha'irs have to send their Gens to get spells whether they "know" the spells or not.


I'll see if I can summarize. 3.5 Sha'irs basically have three categories of spells:

1) Arcane and known
2) Arcane and unknown
3) Divine

- "Known" means "I chose to add this spell to my repertoire by leveling up" (identical to how a sorcerer learns spells.) However, unlike a sorcerer, knowing a spell is not enough to allow a Sha'ir to cast it - it just makes it quicker for his gen to bargain for it. Grabbing "known" spells only takes a few rounds each, letting you feasibly grab one or two even during combat (at least the lower ones.) It also means that you only need a few minutes to an hour to fill all your slots with these, a comparable amount of time to a wizard filling all his own slots.

- "Unknown" means "this spell isn't in my spells known, but I've seen it before and identified it with a Spellcraft check." (Obviously, the DM needs to step in here and decide if out-of-play information, like backstories, counts for this.) Unknown spells take a few minutes each to grab, letting you feasibly grab them between fights. Grabbing a lot of them can take an hour or two though.

- Divine spells are their own category - it doesn't matter to the bargaining time if the Sha'ir has seen them before or not. However, they take much longer (hours each) to bargain for, and can only come from particular cleric domains - namely Air, Chaos, Earth, Fire, Knowledge, Law, Luck, Sun and Water. The Sha'ir doesn't actually gain these domains, he can just pull spells from them. But they are still divine spells, opening Sha'irs up to some neat tricks (like self-qualifying for theurges etc.)


The second component to Sha'ir preparation is the bargain itself - the Sha'ir makes a Diplomacy check whenever he sends his gen off to get spells. The check is modified by things like spell level (higher spells are harder of course), metamagic (the bigger the spell level adjustment, the harder the check), whether it is known or not (known arcane are the easiest to get, unknown divines get a steep penalty), a boost from your Sha'ir level, and finally, a stacking penalty for each time you've tried and failed to get the same spell in a given day. As Sha'ir's are Cha-based and have Diplomacy as a class skill, this shouldn't be too hard even for your most complicated toys. If the check fails, your gen comes back empty-handed and needs to be resent; if it fails badly, he might be kept back from you for a few extra minutes.

The final component comes into play after a spell is successfully retrieved - it stays prepared (i.e. ready to cast) for a number of hours = your Sha'ir level. If you haven't cast it by then, the slot empties and you can put something else in it. So once you hit 8 or above, you can prepare a bunch of spells and reasonably count on having them active all day, similar to a wizard.


In practice, they work out to a hybrid of wizard and sorcerer with some divine magic thrown in. Very cool and interesting class. And as noted above, having access to the entire wizard/sorcerer list makes them pretty powerful.

[Andorax]

No...their "spells known" list is actually a "spells easily retrieved" list.

It only takes a few rounds for a Gen to retrive a "known" spell...even those aren't immediately accessible.

It takes a few minutes for a Gen to retrieve a "seen it done but not on my specific known list" arcane spell.

A 4th level Sha'ir has, for example, 2 2nd level spells known....say Web and Flaming Sphere. If he wanted to cast Summon II, he'd have to wait longer to retrieve it (at a harder check).

[Psyren]

No...their "spells known" list is actually a "spells easily retrieved" list.

It only takes a few rounds for a Gen to retrive a "known" spell...even those aren't immediately accessible.

It takes a few minutes for a Gen to retrieve a "seen it done but not on my specific known list" arcane spell.

A 4th level Sha'ir has, for example, 2 2nd level spells known....say Web and Flaming Sphere. If he wanted to cast Summon II, he'd have to wait longer to retrieve it (at a harder check).

That's what I said (in many more words :smalltongue:) Or was that "No" directed at GeckoKing?

[TheGeckoKing]

Many thanks, Psyren. So, looking at the class, they're in the same club as the Shadowcaster - nice class, but have an unholy attachment to a crossbow/Wild Cohort at low levels.

[Mnemnosyne]

Thought I'd drop a link to the Sha'ir Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=849.0) here.

One of my biggest questions for the DM with the Sha'ir is if it's possible for them to allow a spell to drain away on purpose, so they can refill the slot. If it is, that gives them even more versatility since even if they fill all their slots, it'll take only a few minutes at most to get a new arcane spell to fit the particular situation they encounter. If it isn't, it means they have a rather interesting situation where they want to leave a lot of slots open, but have just enough filled so they can take action when a surprising situation comes up.

The handbook above also makes a big deal out of the fact that they are both an arcane spellcasting class and a divine spellcasting class, and therefore qualify for and are advanced by prestige classes that advance divine spellcasting. That allows them to take the Skypledged prestige class from Races of the Wild, which gives them access to Divine Spellpool, thus allowing them to cast divine spells without the extreme wait time on retrieving them.

They also qualify directly for Dweomerkeeper; Mantle of Spells can be helpful since in a way it can be used to expand a Sha'ir's spells known list - add a spell that's not 'known' to the Mantle, then have the gen fetch a known spell and spontaneously convert it to the Mantle spell, saving you several minutes of spell fetching (or hours, if you pick a divine spell). Plus of course the standard tricks with Supernatural Spell.

A trick I thought up (which is technically effective for any spontaneous caster but most useful for those with an expansive spell list) involves the Quick Potion spell. Once you've got a CL high enough for your quick potions to last longer than 8 hours, you can, before you rest, retrieve quick potion spells and long-duration buffs, then cast those spells into the quick potions. When you wake up, you can then use yesterday's spell slots to buff up today by drinking your potions.

Low levels aren't that big a problem in my opinion - yes, it's annoying, but you can set up a retrieval schedule and stick to your spells known list for the most part. Level 1 is the worst but quickly over with. Level 2 already gets much better, and by level 3 you're retaining spells in memory for 3 hours so you're not too bad off. Since you want a large number of unfilled slots anyway (assuming you can't empty slots on purpose except by casting them) so you can quickly adapt to situations, having a few key spells fetched once every 3 hours isn't a major problem.

That actually leads to another concern: if you can't intentionally empty slots, getting too many levels of Sha'ir can actually be a bad thing, because then your slots don't empty and you don't get to 'reclaim' them for later adaptation. It is entirely feasible to drop out of the class at level 5, thus giving you a 5 hour memorization time on your spells - every 5 hours, you can switch up the spells you have memorized, which makes you tremendously adaptable. The longer after that you wait to PrC out, the longer you have to wait to adapt to a new situation. I would consider 9th as a good breakpoint where you get the inherent ability to plane shift to an elemental plane once a day. If you're caught with your pants down, so to speak, you can just plane shift to the Elemental Plane of Air which tends to be a nice safe environment. But even that might not really be valuable enough to delay prestige classing out.

[Psyren]

I wouldn't (nor do the rules) allow them to drain on purpose, any more than I'd allow a wizard to empty a slot and reprepare, or a sorcerer to swap spells known more often than the 1 per 4 levels. T1 and T2 don't need the help.

[Mnemnosyne]

Yeah, that'd generally be my assumption too, but worth asking.

That said, assuming you can't drain slots on purpose, I wonder if there's a way to objectively determine exactly what the optimum amount of Sha'ir levels would be, so you can have your spells memorized for the optimal amount of time... My first inclination is to say 5 hours is plenty decent, but I'm not sure if there's an even more optimal answer.

[Psyren]

It's actually ambiguous whether they are "stuck" with retrieved spells or not. Sha'ir entry:


A sha'ir's spells must be retrieved from the elemental planes by his familiar, an outsider called a gen. Once retrieved, a spell remains set in the sha'ir's memory, like a wizard's prepared spell, until cast or until a number of hours pass equal to the sha'ir's class level.

The key phrase there is "like a wizard's prepared spell." Because a Sha'ir's prepared spells explicitly function like those of a wizard, we can use the language from Rules Compendium:


If an arcane spellcaster wishes, some or all of the spells still prepared from the previous day can be abandoned to make room for preparing new ones.

"But wait, Psyren," I hear you ask, "doesn't that mean they can in fact drain their spells on purpose to free up slots as needed during the day?"

To which I answer - it would, except for this subsequent passage:


They can’t, however, fill any slot that contained a prepared spell after the initial preparation process of the day. This means an arcanist can’t abandon a recently prepared spell to prepare another, nor can that spellcaster refill spell slots of spells that have been cast since the initial preparation process of the day. (Such a spell slot is expended, not open.)

The Sha'ir's drain works because it leaves the slot open (as opposed to expended, which it would be if cast.) However, they still cannot drain voluntarily, as that would be "abandoning a recently prepared spell to prepare another." The spell itself can dissipate, but the Sha'ir cannot initiate the process. He can cast the spell, but doing so will leave the slot expended rather than open.


TL;DR they aren't stuck with yesterday's uncast spells if they don't want to be, but they can't keep swapping out what their gen has brought back at-will either.

[Malimar]

...now I want to play a sha'ir. Adding it to the pile of concepts, which is already half a dozen characters deep. :smallsigh:

[Fouredged Sword]

They can be really fun in gestalt. Go Sha'ir on one side and say druid on the other.

Now go Geomancer. Convert all those tough to retrieve divine spells to arcane.

[Psyren]

They can be really fun in gestalt. Go Sha'ir on one side and say druid on the other.

Now go Geomancer. Convert all those tough to retrieve divine spells to arcane.

Well, the fun thing about them is that they qualify for Geomancer solo - no gestalt needed. In fact, if they get Knowledge (Nature) from somewhere they can enter Geomancer at level 3.

But Geomancer won't allow a Sha'ir to circumvent the time-lag on retrieving divine spells. Complete Divine:


Spell Versatility: At 1st level, the geomancer learns to blend divine and arcane magic. He still acquires and prepares his spells in the normal manner for his individual spellcasting classes...

[Ashtagon]

Is there any difference between the Dragon #315 and Dragon Compendium versions?

[Psyren]

Is there any difference between the Dragon #315 and Dragon Compendium versions?

Not sure as I only have the latter. But for what it's worth, the Dragon Compendium entry references #315 as its source.

[Andorax]

I'd say they're well worth giving a go. If it doesn't work out...well...at least you can die messily and try again with something else ;) For what it's worth, while you still have the standard XP loss of losing a familiar, at the very least you can replace it the next day, so you're not rendered functionally useless.

As I mentioned earlier, the class's only glaring weakness I can see (besides familiar-dependance) is being 2+I with three "necessary" skills, which makes it a bit Int-MAD despite being a purely Cha casting class.

[Psyren]

Given that the familiar can plane shift at will (even when you're not sending it to spell-hunt for you) it's much easier to keep it safe than, say, a PF Witch's familiar. Retrieve all the spells you need as you storm into the BBEG's sanctum, then tell it to chill out on an elemental plane while you gird your loins and attack. (Or send it for a Divine spell that you have a feeling you'll need afterwards - that should tie it up for awhile also.)

[GnomeGninjas]

This probably doesn't work but it seems to me that if you take levels in Mystic Theuge it advances your casting twice per level.

[Arcanist]

This probably doesn't work but it seems to me that if you take levels in Mystic Theuge it advances your casting twice per level.

Without a dip into a class that provides access to Knowledge (Religion) then its not possible to gain levels in Sha'ir.

Factotum: Able Leaner
Sha'ir 3
Mystic Theurge 10 and in 14 levels you have double 9's Sha'ir is however you lack one of the main selling points of being a Theurge. Durability and Variation. Sure if your campaign is only going to be 14 levels you are creating Wish Traps and exploring the multiverse on the back of a Mindraped Tarrasque :smallsmile: