Why is Halruuan Elder a +2 tier when Red Wizard is +0?

[monkey3]

I am talking about the tier system, and the PRC modifiers on top of the base classes listed here:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5198.0

Let's take a specialist Wizard because that is a limitation of Red Wizard, and we want to compare apples & apples. This wizard wants 40th level caster level.

To me the reason to take Halruuan Elder or Red Wizard is to get that awesome circle magic goodness. Since these are the only two classes that get you that, I figured they would be equivalent as far as modifying your tier. Yet, the link above says Halruuan Elder is 2 tiers better than Red Wizard.

Halruuan Elder is slightly better in terms of other goodies it gives, but it also comes as later level. In addition ALL of the Halruuan Elder prerequisite feats are waste, and ALL od the Red Wizard prerequisite feats are good!

Any insights as to why Red Wizard doesn't get love?

[Hirax]

You lose another school. Versatility is a huge reason wizards are tier 1. You're still earth shatteringly powerful, but less so than a generalist. That alone makes the elder better, the metamagic reducers are just gravy, especially on an if you have 4 levels of incantatrix. Which, speaking of incantatrix, you're basically shut out of taking that unless you want to lose yet another school.

edit: this is more significant because red wizards need to be specialists, so they already have banned schools to begin with.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Also don't Halruuan Elder have free metamagic or something like that within halrua (or whatever it is called their homeland) which is ripe for abuse using accorn of far travel?

[Hirax]

Also don't Halruuan Elder have free metamagic or something like that within halrua (or whatever it is called their homeland) which is ripe for abuse using accorn of far travel?

That's hathran. At level 5, when you get circle magic, you can reduce the metamagic cost of 2 metamagics feats by 1 as an elder.

[grarrrg]

Because red is the color of 2nd place.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41D3W89Y5FL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

:smalltongue:

Now if he were a BLUE Wizard...

[monkey3]

Touche on the 8-bit reference. Or was it a reference to the Wizard of War computer game?


A clarification on losing an extra school of magic when you become a Red Wizard: You actually don't lose an entire school. You can't learn any more spells from the school. So if you have learned all you want, then you can use the spells you already know.

A wizard could reasonably say that he is interested in Enchantment up to 5th level spells, in order to get the Charm Monster, and Control Person spells, and after that, losing the rest of enchantment is a small sacrifice. In that case, when he becomes a Red Wizard after 9th level, he keeps casting all the enchantment spells he knows and cares about. He just cannot learn any new higher level ones.

So, I wish to restate my opinion that Red Wizard is as good or maybe better that (better prerequisite feats) than Halruuan Elder.

[Arcanist]

Touche on the 8-bit reference. Or was it a reference to the Wizard of War computer game?


A clarification on losing an extra school of magic when you become a Red Wizard: You actually don't lose an entire school. You can't learn any more spells from the school. So if you have learned all you want, then you can use the spells you already know.

A wizard could reasonably say that he is interested in Enchantment up to 5th level spells, in order to get the Charm Monster, and Control Person spells, and after that, losing the rest of enchantment is a small sacrifice. In that case, when he becomes a Red Wizard after 9th level, he keeps casting all the enchantment spells he knows and cares about. He just cannot learn any new higher level ones.

So, I wish to restate my opinion that Red Wizard is as good or maybe better that (better prerequisite feats) than Halruuan Elder.


Oh Joy, I have to pay money to be an equal to a class that was supposed to be my equal...

My question is why doesn't the Red Mage just Chaos Shuffle his feats so that he gives up his proficiency for the ability to cast his schools of magic? Hell the Red Wizard could be a Focused Specialist and still get away with it... So my question is: Why? Because its to cheesy? Because its unfair to assume that the Red Wizard wouldn't atleast attempt to rid himself of his weaknesses? Stop me when I get it :smalltongue:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

My question is why doesn't the Red Mage just Chaos Shuffle his feats so that he gives up his proficiency for the ability to cast his schools of magic? Hell the Red Wizard could be a Focused Specialist and still get away with it... So my question is: Why? Because its to cheesy? Because its unfair to assume that the Red Wizard wouldn't atleast attempt to rid himself of his weaknesses? Stop me when I get it :smalltongue:

If you're talking about the Red Wizard in the DMG, there's nothing to Chaos Shuffle away except your prerequisite for the prestige class, in which case you lose everything it grants.

Red Wizard gets Circle Magic, but it's not exactly good until the extremely high levels (20+). A Halruuan Elder also gets Circle Magic, and his is just as good, though it doesn't become completely broken until 24th level unless you use early entry shenanigans (i.e. Sanctum Spell and two Bloodline levels).

Halruuan Elder is also similar in function to Incantatrix, in that it can Mailman quite well, and actually sooner than an Incantatrix build. He reduces the cost of one of his metamagics by one at character levels 8, 11, 14, and 17, whereas the Incantatrix has to wait until character level 15 to reduce the cost of all his metamagic feats. Again, he also doesn't have to give up a school of magic to do it!

[Arcanist]

If you're talking about the Red Wizard in the DMG, there's nothing to Chaos Shuffle away except your prerequisite for the prestige class, in which case you lose everything it grants.

Actually you can Chaos Shuffle your weapon proficiency feats away, they're actually bonus feats.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Actually you can Chaos Shuffle your weapon proficiency feats away, they're actually bonus feats.

Class feature proficiencies are not feats, but racial bonus proficiencies (i.e. Elf proficiencies) that make specific mention of a feat will work for that. I'm pretty sure Red Wizard is Human-only, as its prerequisite Tattoo Focus is a regional feat specific to a human-only region and the Kn: Local trick doesn't work as of PGtF.

I'm just wondering what he's going to Chaos Shuffle into to regain his lost schools?

[Dusk Eclipse]

There is a a feat chain (3 IIRC) in LEoF that gives you a banned school back.

[Arcanist]

Class feature proficiencies are not feats, but racial bonus proficiencies (i.e. Elf proficiencies) that make specific mention of a feat will work for that. I'm pretty sure Red Wizard is Human-only, as its prerequisite Tattoo Focus is a regional feat specific to a human-only region and the Kn: Local trick doesn't work as of PGtF.

Hmm, I see :smallconfused: I was told elsewhere however as I cannot remember where I heard that Class Proficiencies were considered bonus feats. I've no reason to believe that they aren't.


I'm just wondering what he's going to Chaos Shuffle into to regain his lost schools?

Arcane Transfiguration feat tree, for a Focused specialist or a Red Wizard you'd need to swap 5 feats (Spell Reprieve, Item Reprieve, and then Arcane Transfiguration 3 times). It unfortunately falls flat now that I'm re-reading the feat. :smallconfused:

[sreservoir]

Hmm, I see :smallconfused: I was told elsewhere however as I cannot remember where I heard that Class Proficiencies were considered bonus feats. I've no reason to believe that they aren't.



Arcane Transfiguration feat tree, for a Focused specialist or a Red Wizard you'd need to swap 5 feats (Spell Reprieve, Item Reprieve, and then Arcane Transfiguration 3 times). It unfortunately falls flat now that I'm re-reading the feat. :smallconfused:

armour proficiencies are bonus feats. weapon proficiencies are not. their rules definitions are slightly different.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Hmm, I see :smallconfused: I was told elsewhere however as I cannot remember where I heard that Class Proficiencies were considered bonus feats. I've no reason to believe that they aren't.

Arcane Transfiguration feat tree, for a Focused specialist or a Red Wizard you'd need to swap 5 feats (Spell Reprieve, Item Reprieve, and then Arcane Transfiguration 3 times). It unfortunately falls flat now that I'm re-reading the feat. :smallconfused:

Weapon, armor, or shield proficiency may be granted by the character's race, class or by the following feats: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#weaponArmorAndShieldProficienc y)

Racial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType) trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#monstrousHumanoidType) proficiencies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#giantType)
or
Class-granted weapon proficiencies
or
feat-granted proficiencies.

Only one of those three can be Chaos Shuffled.


Arcane Transfiguration is a bit tricky, since they put most of the feat on one page, then an entire page of tables, and then put the 'special' entry for the feat another page later.

[PinkysBrain]

Red Wizard gets Circle Magic, but it's not exactly good until the extremely high levels (20+).
Heightening up to equivalent of 40th level spells is not good? You can do that at 10th with a few scrolls of simulacrum.

As far as core only exploits go it's pretty decent ...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Heightening up to equivalent of 40th level spells is not good? You can do that at 10th with a few scrolls of simulacrum.

As far as core only exploits go it's pretty decent ...

It's heightened to 20th, and you get a potential caster level of 40.

At Wizard 5/ Red Wizard 5, your Simulacra are Wizard 5's, so they have up to 3rd level spells. Assuming five 3rd level spells from them, and a 5th from yourself, that's 20 total spell levels you can get to distribute between increasing your caster level and adding metamagic to your prepared spells. He could spend three hours to do circle magic with them three times each day, gaining 45 spell levels plus whatever he wants to spend each time, but he's spending three hours each day on circle magic in addition to an hour to prepare his spells. That's a part-time job just getting set up for the day. At level 10, you'll probably spend 30 of that to boost your caster level to 40, and the remaining levels can Heighten a spell to 20th level. If your adventures take more than one day to complete, you shouldn't count on getting in four hours of circle magic every day.

At level 20, your Simulacra are Wizard 5/ Red Wizard 5 and can lead their own circles. You have nine of them each take turns being a circle leader, the purpose of which is to heighten one of their spells to 20th level. When your PC finally does his circle magic for the day, each of those nine participants expends a 20th level spell, giving you 180 spell levels for the day.

[monkey3]

How did we get on this crazy Chaos Shuffle cheese?
This thread is about the differences on 2 PRCs: Halruuan Elder and Red Wizard. Specifically my beef is that I don't see why Halruuan Elder is worth a +2 tier upgrade. What am I missing about the Red Wizard's problem?

[Hirax]

This thread is about the differences on 2 PRCs: Halruuan Elder and Red Wizard. Specifically my beef is that I don't see why Halruuan Elder is worth a +2 tier upgrade. What am I missing about the Red Wizard's problem?

What is unclear about my post?

[monkey3]

...

A clarification on losing an extra school of magic when you become a Red Wizard: You actually don't lose an entire school. You can't learn any more spells from the school. So if you have learned all you want, then you can use the spells you already know.

A wizard could reasonably say that he is interested in Enchantment up to 5th level spells, in order to get the Charm Monster, and Control Person spells, and after that, losing the rest of enchantment is a small sacrifice. In that case, when he becomes a Red Wizard after 9th level, he keeps casting all the enchantment spells he knows and cares about. He just cannot learn any new higher level ones.

...

I replied to your good criticism of Red Wizard. Is the partial loss of a school the reason for the -2 tier? If so, in my opinion it is not enough to offset the complete trash prerequisites of the Elder.

[Hirax]

Well, then there's nothing to argue about, you simply disagree with the valuation of their class features. The metamagic reduction and signature spells the elders get blow red wizards out of the water, and incantatrix is still a viable option for elders. The one additional feat you need to become an elder is well worth those things.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Weapon, armor, or shield proficiency may be granted by the character's race, class or by the following feats: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatModifiers.htm#weaponArmorAndShieldProficienc y)

Racial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#outsiderType) trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#monstrousHumanoidType) proficiencies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#giantType)
or
Class-granted weapon proficiencies
or
feat-granted proficiencies.

Only one of those three can be Chaos Shuffled.


You may be correct about outsiders and the like, but elf has a distinctly different wording that calls out granting feats rather than proficiency. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#elves

Not, arguing that it's outrageous cheese, but your RAW argument is invalid. In a weird way it actually makes sense. Some races have in born knowledge, elves actually train in these weapons. That's the answer to the question of what an elf was doing with an extra fifty or so years of pre adult teen years; picking up 4 suboptimal feats.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You may be correct about outsiders and the like, but elf has a distinctly different wording that calls out granting feats rather than proficiency. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#elves

Not, arguing that it's outrageous cheese, but your RAW argument is invalid. In a weird way it actually makes sense. Some races have in born knowledge, elves actually train in these weapons. That's the answer to the question of what an elf was doing with an extra fifty or so years of pre adult teen years; picking up 4 suboptimal feats.

A few posts up I specifically pointed out that Elves can indeed Chaos Shuffle, but also that Tattoo Focus is a Human-only regional feat which excludes Elves from becoming Red Wizards. I didn't say racial bonus proficiencies were non-feats, I pointed out that creature-type-traits were non-feats.

After a little bit more reading, it appears that class-granted armor and shield proficiencies are indeed granted as bonus feats, as per the feat descriptions. That means a Cleric gets three feats over a Cloistered Cleric, for example, though it's not really going to matter until the very high levels.

[sreservoir]

You may be correct about outsiders and the like, but elf has a distinctly different wording that calls out granting feats rather than proficiency. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/races.htm#elves

Not, arguing that it's outrageous cheese, but your RAW argument is invalid. In a weird way it actually makes sense. Some races have in born knowledge, elves actually train in these weapons. That's the answer to the question of what an elf was doing with an extra fifty or so years of pre adult teen years; picking up 4 suboptimal feats.

those, yes, those can be shuffled. but you were talking about class weapon proficiencies, which can't be shuffled -- they're written like "All characters except for druids, monks, and wizards are automatically proficient with all simple weapons. They need not select this feat."

(class armour proficiencies, on the other hand, are written as "All characters except wizards, sorcerers, and monks automatically have Armor Proficiency (light) as a bonus feat. They need not select it." -- which can be shuffled away, because they're bonus feats.)

you seem to be misinterpreting.

[sonofzeal]

I'm not familiar with Halruuan Elder and was not involved in its tiering, but given that the PrC Tier System is kind of my brainchild....

Red Wizard got its ranking, IIRC (it's been quite a long time), because Circle Magic is so highly campaign-dependent, and the other features only barely justify the entry cost and partial loss of a school. I know for a fact that Incantatrix did not factor in at all - the benchmark is simply a comparison between straight Wizard 20 and Wizard 10 / Red Wizard 10. I believe my judgement at the time, in collaboration with those that gave me feedback, that Circle Magic is more useful for theoretical exercises than it is for actual play, and that a Red Wizard might play differently than a pure Wizard but is likely hitting very much the same balance points. It's certainly not bad (and it could have been with that cost), but it's not obviously a good deal either. "Even".



btw, the "+2"/"-2" terminology gets seriously awkward in this context, and I deliberately avoided using it in the actual descriptions. Really, I think the whole thing could be reworded to stand on its own rather than making reference to other tier systems, and that might be better. But until then, you might find "Up Two"/"Down Two" to be less ambiguous.