Building an E6 Sorcerer

[Eonir]

So my resident DM has decided to play an E6 game and I am really excited about it. I have read countless forum topics over it and it just seems like an awesome campaign variant.

I have decided to play a sorcerer. Sorcerer is my favorite class hands down and combined with a magic-blooded lesser aasimar I plan to have ALL the charisma.

That being said...what is a good way to OPTIMIZE, not CHEESE a sorcerer for E6? No Loredrake and/or hieighten sanctum dragonblood pool craziness. Just a good, well rounded, useful sorcerer.

[Azernak0]

Giving up Familiar for Animal Companion is pretty good. You act as if you are a Druid one half your Sorcerer level but taking Natural Bond will get you to 6. Take a Fleshraker/War Trained riding or something and you are good to go.

Otherwise, just take the basic spells that are useful. You may want to consider something like Battle Sorcerer so you can still do the Power Attack thang. However, that will lower the number of spells you get so it is a trade off.

[Lonely Tylenol]

A good idea would be to focus on your spell selection, because it's the only thing you really get as a class feature. The general rule for a Sorcerer is to pick spells that you would use every day and wouldn't mind using twice. For your sole third-level spell, this might as well be a staple, such as Haste/Slow or Fly, since it might as well be something that you want to use often. Actually, this advice is true for every spell you pick, so pick 7 level 1-3 spells you absolutely adore (4 from 1st, 2 from 2nd, 1 from 3rd) and choose them.

Wands will be your saving grace. Pick up a wand braced and some wands/eternal wands of lesser utility spells and go nuts. You will probably be investing a fair percentage of wealth into this option, until you reach the desired level of versatility.

A Mindbender dip at 6th level is a requirement. You gain nothing from the level save for BAB and saves, and two of your saves will be better for having dipped Mindbender anyway, so there is no reason not to go this option every time for the free telepathy.

My best advice, however?

Pick whichever of Beguiler, Dread Necromancer and Warmage best fits your concept, then take Arcane Disciple for any spells not on that class's list that you want. Suddenly, your 1st-3rd level spell list goes from 7 at level 6 to 32 (Dread Necromancer), 34 (Warmage), or 53 (Beguiler), with three new spells coming your way every time you take Arcane Disciple. On top of that, you gain a d6 Hit Dice, the ability to cast in light armor, and actual class features. If you miss the familiar, it's a feat at level 3.

[Zonugal]

Because of feats like Extra Spell & Extra Slot, there is no reason to not go with the Battle Sorcerer variant. You'll end up being able to cast in light armor (which can be upgraded through feats like Armor Proficiency & Battle Caster), you'll have better hit-die (d8 over d4, but because of Improved Toughness & Toughness in E6 isn't a huge feature) and a BaB of +4 as opposed to +3 (which doesn't jump out as huge but does open up some more combat-based feats).

Azernak0 had some good advice regarding trading out your familiar for an animal companion. While a familiar has a lot of utility (what with higher int score and shared skills) it takes a full year to come back if killed. An animal companion can be refreshed every 24 hours, which makes it very viable on dangerous missions/situations.

For spells you'll want to be a bit picky, like Lonely Tylenol said, in the first couple levels but at a certain point into your epic career you can begin to snag any 0, 1st or 2nd sorcerer spell you like with Extra Spell (this is why I'd say a Sorcerer in E6 must attain 3rd-level spells). You'll only be getting one 3rd-level sorcerer spell, so it really has to be your character's signature thing. They should be known for it and it should ideally be both powerful & versatile. Some good ones are:

Arcane Sight
Battlemagic Perception
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance
Disobedience
Dispel Magic
Dragonskin
Explosive Runes
Fireball
Fly
Great Thunderclap
Haste
Legion of Sentinels
Lightning Bolt
Magic Circle against Evil
Shivering Touch
Sticks And Stones
Summon Monster III
Wand Modulation

Mind you, with a wisdom of 13, you can pick up some other 3rd-level spells once a day from Arcane Disciple. Another consideration to be taken are reserve feats. Acidic Splatter, Fiery Burst, & Winter's Blast are all quality choices to give your character more versatility throughout a day with Storm Bolt & Touch of Healing taking a bit more effort to secure but bringing some good power.

Finally regarding races I think a magic-blooded lesser aasimar is a solid choice but for power (not crazy, but impressive power) take a look into Illumian for the ability to possibly persist two spells per day (so you could have Fly for example going on all day which in E6 is pretty nice).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Magic-Blooded Lesser Aasimar is a good start. I'd add on either Unseelie Fey from Dragon Compendium or White Dragonspawn from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting. Keep in mind that in E6 you don't actually take a level adjustment, it just reduces your starting ability pointbuy. That makes even Phrenic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) worth consideration, especially if you get Magic in the Blood (PGtF) to be able to use all of those abilities 3/day. Half-Fey (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) would also be a decent choice, again be sure to take Magic in the Blood. If none of those look appealing, Quasi-Lycanthrope (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) would add some fairly extreme survivability with its DR 10/Silver, and you could walk around all day with cat ears/tail.

Use this ACF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) which Azernak0 mentioned to get an animal companion instead of a familiar. Take at least one flaw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) to pick up Natural Bond (CV) and Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) at 1st level, and put max cross-class ranks into Handle Animal. Dismiss both initial companions, and meditate for a new companion that benefits from both of those, which should be a Magebred (ECS) Riding Dog. Get a Masterwork Tool (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#toolMasterwork) for Handle Animal if necessary, and take ten on the checks to give it the Warbeast template (MM2) prior to the start of play. A riding dog can be both war-trained and gain Warbeast, as it doesn't use a separate creature entry from one that's not war-trained, or you could just war-train it after giving it Warbeast.

Edit: Out of curiosity, I figured up what its stats would be at Sorcerer 6:
Magebred Warbeast Riding Dog, Wild Cohort 6, Animal Companion 6, War-Trained
Size/Type: Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 10d8+50 (95 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 50 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 34 (+5 Dex, +15 natural, +4 Mage Armor), touch 15, flat-footed 29
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+14
Attack: Bite +15 melee (1d8+7)
Full Attack: Bite +15 melee (1d8+7)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip +7
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, link, share spells, evasion, devotion
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +6
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: Jump +19, Listen +9, Spot +9, Swim +8, Survival +2*, Spellcraft -2
Feats: Alertness, Track*, Improved Natural Attack*, Weapon Focus: Bite, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Protection
*racial bonus feat

Trip (Ex)
A wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip the opponent (+7 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the wolf.

Skills
Riding dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Jump checks. *Riding dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.

Be good-aligned and take Ancestral Relic (BoED) at 3rd level IF your DM will let you count some or all of your post-6th virtual levels toward its maximum value. Counting half of your virtual levels would probably be fair. Your relic will be a staff inscribed with arcane symbols, which you use Ancestral Relic to make into a custom Runestaff (MIC) with whatever spells you want up to the maximum value. A Runestaff normally requires the Craft Staff feat, which is unavailable in E6, so the only other way to get one is to buy a +1 Quarterstaff and take Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm). Keep in mind that an item's default caster level is not a prerequisite for crafting it (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#casterLevel) (post-errata DMG).

Don't forget that Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) exist, so it is possible for E6 characters to access spells much higher than 3rd level, though it has little use in combat. For example, Hallow and Unhallow should still exist, and Planar Binding and Planar Ally spells could be cast as Incantations. Even the Dark Chaos Shuffle could be available. Also remember that a creature with racial spell-like abilities can use that caster level to qualify for item creation feats, so Craft Rod and Craft Staff aren't completely excluded from E6 since you could possibly summon a powerful outsider who possesses one of those feats. Plus creatures with naturally high caster levels still exist, such as Dragons, Nagas, Lammasu, etc. Finally, there's the Midgard Dwarves in Frostburn, who can craft any item of the Ring, Wondrous, or Arms/Armor categories as though they met all the prerequisites, which includes intelligent items and even epic items of those types.

[Eonir]

WOW! Thanks for all the replies guys! Lots of great ideas.

And I will definitely have that dog! Sounds awesome.

[Vladislav]

Get a good +1 or +2 metamagic feat. This way you can still make good use of your 3rd level slots if you run into a scenario where your one and only 3rd level spell happens to be useless.

[137beth]

I'm not a fan of battle mage, although I see its merits (I'm just not a fan of the flavor). Have you considered mage of the arcane order for the spell pool?

[Tytalus]

Dismiss both initial companions, and meditate for a new companion that benefits from both of those, which should be a Magebred (ECS) Riding Dog.

Animal Companion (which you gain "as [a] druid") and Wild Cohort don't seem to be compatible / stackable, judging by the relevant passage in the Wild Cohort rules:

"Special: Druids and rangers who take the wild cohort feat gain an animal cohort in addition to their animal companion. Although the two abilities are similar, they follow different sets of rules and must be tracked separately."

And unless there's a special exception, Magebred animals don't seem to qualify as Animal Companions or Wild Cohorts:

"Animal Companion Basics: Use the base statistics for a creature of the
companion’s kind, as given in the Monster Manual, ..."

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"Special: Druids and rangers who take the wild cohort feat gain an animal cohort in addition to their animal companion. Although the two abilities are similar, they follow different sets of rules and must be tracked separately."

The two abilities are similar and must be tracked separately, i.e. the level progressions for determining extra HD and other benefits are tracked separately. That's to avoid confusion in case someone wants to take Wild Cohort to ignore the table built into the feat and add his character level to his Druid level and use the Animal Companion table based on that. It says you initially gain an additional animal cohort, but nothing about a creature benefiting from one ability disqualifies from allowing it to benefit from another ability.


"Animal Companion Basics: Use the base statistics for a creature of the
companion’s kind, as given in the Monster Manual, ..."[/QUOTE]

So if you gain an Animal Companion which doesn't appear in the Monster Manual at all, does it not begin with any stats? In the book Five Nations there are monster entries for specific magebred animals, complete with a "Magebred X as Animal Companions" section with each one. The above quote is under the presumption that you're only playing with the core books, and that your only animal companion options are from the Monster Manual. It's basically saying that you use the base monster stats for a creature of the companion's kind, unmodified by things like switching feats, giving it the elite array, etc.


There's one more quote you've missed, from the Eberron Campaign Setting under the Druid entry:

"A druid or ranger may never acquire a magebred animal as a companion. Most druids and rangers are ambivalent toward such creatures, while some consider magebred animals to be corruptions of nature."

This character isn't a Ranger or Druid, so this is absolutely not applicable. Their reasoning behind why the prohibition exists for those classes is not even applicable to an arcane spellcaster.

[Tytalus]

The two abilities are similar and must be tracked separately, i.e. the level progressions for determining extra HD and other benefits are tracked separately.

The relevant part is not the passage about tracking separately, but: "Druids and rangers who take the wild cohort feat gain an animal cohort in addition to their animal companion.". As in: two separate creatures.


So if you gain an Animal Companion which doesn't appear in the Monster Manual at all, does it not begin with any stats?

Again, that's not the relevant part. It is: "Use the base statistics for a creature of the companion’s kind...". As in: you take the stats of the available creatures as listed. Magebred creatures are neither on the Animal Companion nor on the Wild Cohort lists. And magebred version of those animals certainly do not have the "base statistics" of the given choices.


There's one more quote you've missed, from the Eberron Campaign Setting under the Druid entry: "A druid or ranger may never acquire a magebred animal as a companion."

Since you acquire an Animal Companion "as [a] druid", that most certainly does apply here.

[Tyndmyr]

So my resident DM has decided to play an E6 game and I am really excited about it. I have read countless forum topics over it and it just seems like an awesome campaign variant.

I have decided to play a sorcerer. Sorcerer is my favorite class hands down and combined with a magic-blooded lesser aasimar I plan to have ALL the charisma.

That being said...what is a good way to OPTIMIZE, not CHEESE a sorcerer for E6? No Loredrake and/or hieighten sanctum dragonblood pool craziness. Just a good, well rounded, useful sorcerer.

Step 1: Do not foresake caster levels. Not even one. Can't do it in E6.

Note additionally that Arcane Thesis is ungodly good in E6. Not even for the metamagic boosts, necessarily, but because +2 CL means CL 8 fireballs out the gate. That's kind of awesome.

A reserve feat is frequently awesome for solving any endurance issues. Note also that the CL boost from them is fantastic. Extra Spell is also priceless.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The relevant part is not the passage about tracking separately, but: "Druids and rangers who take the wild cohort feat gain an animal cohort in addition to their animal companion.". As in: two separate creatures.

Again, that's not the relevant part. It is: "Use the base statistics for a creature of the companion’s kind...". As in: you take the stats of the available creatures as listed. Magebred creatures are neither on the Animal Companion nor on the Wild Cohort lists. And magebred version of those animals certainly do not have the "base statistics" of the given choices.

Since you acquire an Animal Companion "as [a] druid", that most certainly does apply here.

You initially gain a separate animal cohort in addition to your animal companion. There's nothing to stop you from dismissing both and gaining a new animal that benefits from both. You can't normally combine Wild Cohort or Animal Companion with a Familiar or a Paladin's Mount, because the latter two change its creature type to Magical Beast thus disqualifying it from any animal-specific benefits. In this case, neither ability disqualifies the creature from benefiting from the other ability. It works.

They initially barred Druids and Rangers from gaining Magebred Animals as Animal Companions, but then later made allowances for specific cases in which it's totally OK. There's no longer a blanket prohibition on Magebred Animal Companions. A Ranger gains an animal companion as a Druid but it still had to make a specific mention for that class. That the Sorcerer ACF grants a partial Animal Companion class feature that uses the Druid progression is irrelevant to prohibitions that the Druid would normally have to follow. He doesn't lose access to spellcasting if he wears metal armor, and his Animal Companion class feature doesn't stop advancing if he ceases to revere nature (or never did in the first place). A character of a given class only has to follow prohibitions of their own specific class, regardless of what other classes the various alternate class features follow. Otherwise you'll end up with Druidic Avengers (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAve nger) being forced to follow the Barbarian alignment restrictions in addition to all the Druid restrictions.

[Eonir]

Can you give me a quote on the 'Magebred creatures as animal companions' part? My DM is kind of nitpicky about that stuff :/

And I agree, Arcane Thesis sounds legit in E6.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Can you give me a quote on the 'Magebred creatures as animal companions' part? My DM is kind of nitpicky about that stuff :/

From Five Nations, a Magebred Brown Bear is available as an animal companion at 'level -6' whereas a standard Brown Bear is also a 'level -6' companion. Also in Five Nations, the Magebred Ghost Tiger (a white Magebred Tiger) is available as an animal companion at 'level -6' whereas a standard Tiger is also a 'level -6' companion. Therefore, magebred versions of animals are obtainable at an equal level to non-magebred varieties.

There is absolutely nothing prohibiting a non-Druid, non-Ranger from obtaining a magebred version of an otherwise standard animal as his animal companion.

[Tytalus]

You initially gain a separate animal cohort in addition to your animal companion. There's nothing to stop you from dismissing both and gaining a new animal that benefits from both.


The rules say: "Although the two abilities are similar, they follow different sets of rules and must be tracked separately.". If you combine the two, there is nothing to track separately, it's a single creature (you don't have to "track" the bonuses at all, they are readily apparent in the relevant tables).



They initially barred Druids and Rangers from gaining Magebred Animals as Animal Companions, but then later made allowances for specific cases in which it's totally OK. There's no longer a blanket prohibition on Magebred Animal Companions. A Ranger gains an animal companion as a Druid but it still had to make a specific mention for that class. That the Sorcerer ACF grants a partial Animal Companion class feature that uses the Druid progression is irrelevant to prohibitions that the Druid would normally have to follow.

That's not how rules and exceptions work. If it did, then the writers of Wild Cohort (written before Unearthed Arcana was even published, by the way) would have had to predict every special (future) rule exception that's based on the druid's companion. Of course, that's impossible. That's why it's sufficient to just write "as druid", and that's what it means: the same rules as for druid animal companions apply. They didn't have to mention rangers, too, for it to apply to their companions as well, but seem to choose to do so for clarity's sake.


From Five Nations, a Magebred Brown Bear is available as an animal companion at 'level -6' whereas a standard Brown Bear is also a 'level -6' companion.


The Magebred Brown Bear explicitly replaces the Polar Bear, not the Brown bear: "A druid from Breland of 7th level or higher or a ranger from Breland of 14th level or higher may select a magebred brown bear as her animal companion instead of a polar bear. See page 36 of the Player’s Handbook for more information on animal companions.".

Clearly, a magebred animal counts as more powerful than the base animal. Also, this option is only available to character from a specific region.



Also in Five Nations, the Magebred Ghost Tiger (a white Magebred Tiger) is available as an animal companion at 'level -6' whereas a standard Tiger is also a 'level -6' companion.

Same here. The Magebred Tiger is an alternative for a more powerful base creature, the Dire Tiger: "A druid from Breland of 7th level or higher or a ranger from Breland of 14th level or higher may select a magebred ghost tiger as her animal companion instead of a dire lion. See page 36 of the Player’s Handbook for more information on animal companions."

And again, additional restrictions apply.



Therefore, magebred versions of animals are obtainable at an equal level to non-magebred varieties.


No. Even if your above points were true, concluding that two exception make a general rule is not RAW.



There is absolutely nothing prohibiting a non-Druid, non-Ranger from obtaining a magebred version of an otherwise standard animal as his animal companion.

Yes: the restrictions that only "base" creatures statistics can be used ("Use the base statistics for a creature of the companion’s kind...") - barring special exceptions, as in the cited cases.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The rules say: "Although the two abilities are similar, they follow different sets of rules and must be tracked separately.". If you combine the two, there is nothing to track separately, it's a single creature (you don't have to "track" the bonuses at all, they are readily apparent in the relevant tables).

They are two separate abilities that you character has, so your character's power in each of those abilities is tracked separately. Your effective level in one does not change your effective level in the other. There are many abilities that give bonuses to a separate creature from your character, you must track your effective level in each ability independent of other similar abilities, and this is no exception. However, a given creature can benefit from multiple such abilities as long as those benefits are not exclusive of one another. For example, if a creature is a familiar it counts as a magical beast, and cannot benefit from another ability that cannot apply to magical beasts. If a character takes both Improved Familiar and Leadership and obtains a Hell Hound as his familiar, he can also designate it as his cohort and add class levels to it. In the case of Wild Cohort and Animal Companion, an animal benefiting from one is still an animal and it still qualifies to benefit from the other.


That's not how rules and exceptions work. If it did, then the writers of Wild Cohort (written before Unearthed Arcana was even published, by the way) would have had to predict every special (future) rule exception that's based on the druid's companion. Of course, that's impossible. That's why it's sufficient to just write "as druid", and that's what it means: the same rules as for druid animal companions apply. They didn't have to mention rangers, too, for it to apply to their companions as well, but seem to choose to do so for clarity's sake.

Unearthed Arcana was first printed in February 2004. The Eberron campaign Setting was first printed June 2004. Sorcerers and Wizards could gain animal companions four months before ECS was printed, so by your reasoning if they didn't intend for Sorcerers and Wizards to gain Magebred animals as companions, they could have included those classes along with the prohibition to Druids and Rangers. By your reasoning, they didn't even need to mention that Rangers can't get them, as they too acquire an animal companion "as a druid," but they did include them because it does not necessarily apply to every "as a druid" companion, only those of Druids and Rangers.


The Magebred Brown Bear explicitly replaces the Polar Bear, not the Brown bear: "A druid from Breland of 7th level or higher or a ranger from Breland of 14th level or higher may select a magebred brown bear as her animal companion instead of a polar bear. See page 36 of the Player’s Handbook for more information on animal companions.".

Clearly, a magebred animal counts as more powerful than the base animal. Also, this option is only available to character from a specific region.

Magebred Brown Bear is a 7th level (level -6) companion. If you wish it to appear on your list of alternate companions, you must remove Polar Bear from the list of what you have available, but it's not obtained at the same level as a Polar Bear. It's available at the exact same level as a standard Brown Bear.


Same here. The Magebred Tiger is an alternative for a more powerful base creature, the Dire Tiger: "A druid from Breland of 7th level or higher or a ranger from Breland of 14th level or higher may select a magebred ghost tiger as her animal companion instead of a dire lion. See page 36 of the Player’s Handbook for more information on animal companions."

And again, additional restrictions apply.

Again, the Magebred Tiger is a 7th level (level -6) companion. If you want it to be available to you then you remove the Dire Lion from your list of available alternate companions, but it does not appear on the list at the same level as the Dire Lion. It's available to you at the exact same level as a standard Tiger.


No. Even if your above points were true, concluding that two exception make a general rule is not RAW.

It does set a precedent, which is exactly what WotC looks for when making rulings themselves. I'm following the exact same steps that the game designers follow when deciding officially whether or not something should be permitted after the book was published. If they didn't want it that way, they would put it in the errata.


Yes: the restrictions that only "base" creatures statistics can be used ("Use the base statistics for a creature of the companion’s kind...") - barring special exceptions, as in the cited cases.

If "the companion's kind" is a Magebred Riding Dog, then you use the base statistics for a creature of that kind. As I already said, that means you give it the same feats and skill ranks, and you use the same ability score array rather than the elite array. There is absolutely no violation of the rules in obtaining a Magebred Riding Dog as the animal companion for a Sorcerer.

There is absolutely no violation of the rules in obtaining a Magebred Riding Dog as the animal companion for a Sorcerer.

[strider24seven]

Am I the only one that thinks that keeping a familiar is the better option?
Since an animal companion has an INT < 3 (usually), it's technically controlled by the DM and you have to issue orders to it.

Besides, I prefer familiars because they mesh better with arcane casters in general... the ability to deliver touch spells and wield a second set of equipment (i.e. wands/etc) is -godly-. That's why Raven familiars are awesome. Think about it... do you want a(n admittedly better than the original) fighter or another caster as a class feature.

Also, since you are in E6, Improved Famliar is awesome.

Although if you are going to PrC... I'd say take the AC and take Obtain/Improved Familiar. The Imp is my favorite if you can get your CL to 7th and are LE.

[Tytalus]

They are two separate abilities that you character has


We certainly agree on that: One is an animal companion, one is a wild cohort. They are not the same, have to be tracked separately, which combining them undermines. Thus, they cannot be combined.


If a character takes both Improved Familiar and Leadership and obtains a Hell Hound as his familiar, he can also designate it as his cohort and add class levels to it.


[citation needed]



In the case of Wild Cohort and Animal Companion, an animal benefiting from one is still an animal and it still qualifies to benefit from the other.


The basic rule for both animal compaions and wild cohorts is: "Use the base statistics for a creature of the companion’s kind". If you are taking wild cohort, it's no longer a base creature, since its stats are modified. Ergo, it's not a legal chocie for the wild cohort. And vice versa. Thus, the two aren't compatible.



so by your reasoning if they didn't intend for Sorcerers and Wizards to gain Magebred animals as companions, they could have included those classes along with the prohibition to Druids and Rangers.


That's a misrepresentation of my reasoning. I very clearly stated that "as druid" is all that's needed to clarify that the same rules and restrictions apply "as (they do for) druids".



Magebred Brown Bear is a 7th level (level -6) companion. If you wish it to appear on your list of alternate companions, you must remove Polar Bear from the list of what you have available, but it's not obtained at the same level as a Polar Bear. It's available at the exact same level as a standard Brown Bear.


The RAW passage specifies it as an alternative for a specific kind of druid who has the option to obtain a polar bear instead. The two are mentioned directly in the rules text, and it is obvious the two (polar bear and brown bear) are of different power.

Druids from Breland do have the option to choose a polar bear at 7th level, that much is clear from the rules quote. It's obviously an exception to the general rule. Claiming that all druids have access to a polar bear (or the magebred brown bear alternative) at that level is not supported by the rules.



It does set a precedent, which is exactly what WotC looks for when making rulings themselves. I'm following the exact same steps that the game designers follow when deciding officially whether or not something should be permitted after the book was published. If they didn't want it that way, they would put it in the errata.


No. Exceptions are just that: exceptions. Concluding that two exception make a general rule is not RAW.



If "the companion's kind" is a Magebred Riding Dog, then you use the base statistics for a creature of that kind.


What kind of creatures are available as animal companions is clearly spelled out in the rules for animal companions. "Magebred Riding Dog" is not among them. "Riding dog", however, is.



There is absolutely no violation of the rules in obtaining a Magebred Riding Dog as the animal companion for a Sorcerer.

Bolding doesn't make that statement true.

[Gwendol]

I'd stick with the familiar (improved) if possible. Wild cohort is great if you plan on sticking to mounted combat for example, but in this case the synergies are not that great.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

We certainly agree on that: One is an animal companion, one is a wild cohort. They are not the same, have to be tracked separately, which combining them undermines. Thus, they cannot be combined.

A Rogue 5/ Assassin 7 tracks his sneak attack dice for both classes separately, but combining them does not undermine that at all. Your argument is invalid.


[citation needed]

A Hell Hound can be a cohort via Leadership. A Hell Hound can be an Improved Familiar. Benefiting from one does not automatically exclude it from benefiting from the other, therefore you can. I don't need a citation to show a lack of prohibition, the burden of proof lies on you to show that it's not allowed if you wish to refute it.


The basic rule for both animal compaions and wild cohorts is: "Use the base statistics for a creature of the companion’s kind". If you are taking wild cohort, it's no longer a base creature, since its stats are modified. Ergo, it's not a legal chocie for the wild cohort. And vice versa. Thus, the two aren't compatible.

[citation needed]


That's a misrepresentation of my reasoning. I very clearly stated that "as druid" is all that's needed to clarify that the same rules and restrictions apply "as (they do for) druids".

You're ignoring my point. UA was printed before ECS. Sorcerers and Wizards were able to gain an animal companion "as a druid" before ECS was printed. Rangers also gain an animal companion "as a druid" and they were specifically mentioned in the prohibition against magebred companions. Therefore, "as a druid" is not enough to include a class in that prohibition, because otherwise Ranger would not have needed to be included.


The RAW passage specifies it as an alternative for a specific kind of druid who has the option to obtain a polar bear instead. The two are mentioned directly in the rules text, and it is obvious the two (polar bear and brown bear) are of different power.

Druids from Breland do have the option to choose a polar bear at 7th level, that much is clear from the rules quote. It's obviously an exception to the general rule. Claiming that all druids have access to a polar bear (or the magebred brown bear alternative) at that level is not supported by the rules.

You are completely incorrect. ECS page 37, a Druid or Ranger from Breland cannot gain a Polar Bear or a Dire Lion as their animal companion at all. The Magebred Brown Bear is made available on their list at 'level -6' because Polar Bear doesn't appear on their list in its normal place. The Magebred Tiger is made available on their list at 'level -6' because the Dire Lion doesn't appear on their list in its normal place. Therefore, the proper place for these Magebred varieties are at the exact same level as the mundane varieties of the same animal (Brown Bear and Tiger), which sets a precedent for any Magebred animal to use the same 'level -X' list as its base animal. These creatures are only an exception to the no-Magebred-animals rule, there is no other rule or precedent for where on the level list a Magebred animal should appear for other classes.


No. Exceptions are just that: exceptions. Concluding that two exception make a general rule is not RAW.

As I said above, there is no general rule at all. The only indication of a rule that's even available is precedent, and luckily there are two precedents which completely agree with each other.


What kind of creatures are available as animal companions is clearly spelled out in the rules for animal companions. "Magebred Riding Dog" is not among them. "Riding dog", however, is.

Warbeast Riding Dog is also not on the list, but it's definitely available. Celestial Riding Dog is not on that list, but it's also available with the right feat. Creatures from books added later, like the dinosaurs in MM3, aren't on that list either but they can also be gained as animal companions. There are many varieties of animals that don't appear on the list which are perfectly valid as animal companions. That a magebred variety of creature isn't listed is irrelevant.


Bolding doesn't make that statement true.

Saying that does not make my bolded statement any less true.

[Fouredged Sword]

I created an interesting sorcerer build for a E6 game. Rogue 1/sorcerer1/kobold paragon 3 / trapsmith.

Be a kobold. Between greater draconic rite of passage and you get 4 levels of sorcerer. Trapsmith makes up for the lack of 3rd level spells by granting gaseous form and haste.

Fun build. Interesting character who is both a trapmonkey and a spellcaster while losing very little to pay for being both. Save your offensive spells and use traps as battlefield control whenever you have a moment to prep for a battle. You can easily get your traps to basicly auto hit with +20 or so attack modifiers. Just carry around a sizeing crossbow so you can set up a colossal crossbow trap that you can hide in your pocket:smallbiggrin:.

[Tytalus]

A Rogue 5/ Assassin 7 tracks his sneak attack dice for both classes separately, but combining them does not undermine that at all.

What? LOL! Sneak attack explicitly stacks. Animal companion and wild cohort are explicitly separate. If anything, that is point argainst your argument.



A Hell Hound can be a cohort via Leadership. A Hell Hound can be an Improved Familiar. Benefiting from one does not automatically exclude it from benefiting from the other, therefore you can. I don't need a citation to show a lack of prohibition, the burden of proof lies on you to show that it's not allowed if you wish to refute it.


"Hey, I can still take actions then I'm dead - the rules don't say I can't"

In short, that's not how the rules work. You can do what the rules say. You cannot do everything the rules don't say.

If you need clarification on this particular rule interaction, I recommend you post in one of the "Simple Q&A D&D 3.5 (by RAW)" threads.



[citation needed]


I provided the citation (how could you overlook that? It's the part in double quotes). Once you apply either of the bonuses from wild cohort or animal companion, it's no longer a "base creature" and thus doesn't qualify for the other.



You're ignoring my point.


I showed how your claim that the wild cohort rules should have included the sorcerer's animal companion as a special mention is ridiculous, given that the latter didn't exist at the time the rules were written.



UA was printed before ECS. Sorcerers and Wizards were able to gain an animal companion "as a druid" before ECS was printed. Rangers also gain an animal companion "as a druid" and they were specifically mentioned in the prohibition against magebred companions. Therefore, "as a druid" is not enough to include a class in that prohibition, because otherwise Ranger would not have needed to be included.


First, ranger did not have to be mentionend. You conclusion that just because it's there it had to be there is baseless. Second, if all new rules would have to refer to all other new rules that deal with a similar subject, rules texts would become exponentially larger and more complex as the number of sources increases. Therefore "as druid" is how things like these are handled. Sometimes, core rules, or rules specifically changed or extended are mentioned additonally, for clarity - everyone knows them (or they are essential). Most people probalby don't know about an obscure, optional rule in a randon splat book.



You are completely incorrect.


Please refer to the actual rules from Five Nations (the source you base your argument on). I've quoted the relevant partsHere is the section again, for your convenience, with bolding of the relevant sections. : "A druid from Breland of 7th level or higher or a ranger from Breland of 14th level or higher may select a magebred brown bear as her animal companion instead of a polar bear."

Obviously, the magebred brown bear is equivalent to a polar bear according to the book (for a druid/ranger from Breland that is, no one else).

Now, you can assume that there is a mistake. Basically, there are three options:


Perhaps the author confused when polar bears are accessible to druids.
Perhaps druid/rangers from Breland do have earlier access to polar bears than other druid/rangers.
Perhaps the author thought that magebred brown bears are equivalent to brown bears.


Given that the rules text explicitly compares magebred brown bears to polar bears, option 1 or 2 seem likely. Option 3 doesn't seem likely at all. YMMV.



These creatures are only an exception to the no-Magebred-animals rule, there is no other rule or precedent for where on the level list a Magebred animal should appear for other classes.


My point exactly, thank you. From two explicit exceptions you can't conclude other exceptions.

Using your (incorrect) "they would have done it if they wanted it that way" argument: If they wanted other magebred animals to be available as animal companions, they would have created an appropriate rule. They didn't.



Warbeast Riding Dog is also not on the list, but it's definitely available.


If it's an explicit exception [citation needed, of course], than that's ok. That's how rules work.



Celestial Riding Dog is not on that list, but it's also available with the right feat. Creatures from books added later, like the dinosaurs in MM3, aren't on that list either but they can also be gained as animal companions. There are many varieties of animals that don't appear on the list which are perfectly valid as animal companions.

All explicit exceptions to the general rule. I fail to see your point.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I showed how your claim that the wild cohort rules should have included the sorcerer's animal companion as a special mention is ridiculous, given that the latter didn't exist at the time the rules were written.

The rule against Druids and Rangers gaining Magebred animals as animal companions is in the Eberron Campaign Setting, which was first published in June 2004. Sorcerers and Wizards were given the option to gain an animal companion in Unearthed Arcana, which was first published in February 2004. It very much did exist when that rule was written, I stated this days ago and you've conveniently ignored it.

As I said, Rangers gain an animal companion "as a druid" just as much as Sorcerers and Wizards do. If gaining an animal companion "as a druid" was enough to include a given class in that prohibition, then Ranger wouldn't have needed a mention. The reasoning behind why characters of those classes can't gain Magebred animal companions, that they consider such creatures corruptions of nature, does not even fit with a Wizard or Sorcerer anyway.


First, ranger did not have to be mentionend. You conclusion that just because it's there it had to be there is baseless. Second, if all new rules would have to refer to all other new rules that deal with a similar subject, rules texts would become exponentially larger and more complex as the number of sources increases. Therefore "as druid" is how things like these are handled. Sometimes, core rules, or rules specifically changed or extended are mentioned additonally, for clarity - everyone knows them (or they are essential). Most people probalby don't know about an obscure, optional rule in a randon splat book.

As I said, the reason why Druids and Rangers wouldn't gain a magebred animal companion makes absolutely no sense for a Sorcerer or Wizard, which would be a good reason why the same prohibition doesn't include those classes. From what I can see, they intentionally did not include other classes which may be able to gain an animal companion (a Fighter with levels in Beastmaster, for example) because they did not intend for the prohibition to apply to such characters. Only characters of classes which have built-in flavor regarding a reverence of nature are prohibited from gaining magebred animal companions.


Please refer to the actual rules from Five Nations (the source you base your argument on). I've quoted the relevant partsHere is the section again, for your convenience, with bolding of the relevant sections. : "A druid from Breland of 7th level or higher or a ranger from Breland of 14th level or higher may select a magebred brown bear as her animal companion instead of a polar bear."

Obviously, the magebred brown bear is equivalent to a polar bear according to the book (for a druid/ranger from Breland that is, no one else).

Now, you can assume that there is a mistake. Basically, there are three options:


Perhaps the author confused when polar bears are accessible to druids.
Perhaps druid/rangers from Breland do have earlier access to polar bears than other druid/rangers.
Perhaps the author thought that magebred brown bears are equivalent to brown bears.


Given that the rules text explicitly compares magebred brown bears to polar bears, option 1 or 2 seem likely. Option 3 doesn't seem likely at all. YMMV.

From Eberron Campaign Setting, pages 36-37:

"A character’s choice of companion is constrained
by his region of origin: He must choose a companion
that occurs naturally in this region, as indicated
in the following list."

"Breland, Darguun, or Zilargo: 1st—badger, dire
rat, dog, riding dog, eagle, hawk, horse (light or heavy),
owl, snake (Small or Medium viper); 4th—ape, black bear,
crocodile, dire badger, horrid rat*, monitor lizard, snake
(constrictor or Large viper); 7th—giant crocodile, dire
ape, snake (Huge viper); 10th—horrid ape*, horrid bear*,
snake (giant constrictor); 13th—dire bear."

Druids and Rangers of Breland never had Polar Bears or Dire Lions available as animal companions. Your entire conclusion is incorrect.


My point exactly, thank you. From two explicit exceptions you can't conclude other exceptions.

Using your (incorrect) "they would have done it if they wanted it that way" argument: If they wanted other magebred animals to be available as animal companions, they would have created an appropriate rule. They didn't.

Straw man. If there was a modifier to your effective druid level for having a magebred version of a given companion, then it would have been spelled out. It was not, because no such modifier exists. Magebred versions of animals are available at the exact same effective druid level as a non-magebred animal of the same type, provided the character is able to obtain a magebred companion. This conclusion is supported by two separate precedents which are in complete agreement with each other.


If it's an explicit exception [citation needed, of course], than that's ok. That's how rules work.

Warbeast is a template that can be added to any animal via the Handle Animal skill. Since an Animal Companion is still an animal, it can gain the Warbeast template. It will still be an animal companion even after it becomes a warbeast.


Once you apply either of the bonuses from wild cohort or animal companion, it's no longer a "base creature" and thus doesn't qualify for the other.

This is absolutely incorrect, see Warbeast.


All explicit exceptions to the general rule. I fail to see your point.

You're again ignoring my point because it's convenient. You say that because a creature doesn't appear on the list, it can't be gained as an animal companion. I gave examples of other creatures that don't appear on the list but are definitely available as animal companions.

You're going to keep holding up one straw after another that you've grasped in an effort to continue believing that a perfectly valid animal companion choice is actually invalid. I'm through arguing it with you, this discussion is over.

[Tytalus]

The rule against Druids and Rangers gaining Magebred animals as animal companions is in the Eberron Campaign Setting, which was first published in June 2004. Sorcerers and Wizards were given the option to gain an animal companion in Unearthed Arcana, which was first published in February 2004. It very much did exist when that rule was written, I stated this days ago and you've conveniently ignored it.


You are confused. I am (and have been) talking about UA and the Wild Cohort article. They couldn't address Sorcerer companions in the article as UA wasn't punlished yet.



I stated this days ago and you've conveniently ignored it.


I've addressed it in my last post. See the part about "exponentially larger and more complex as the number of sources increases" - it's simply not practical to address every possible rules interaction (in particular with an obscure optional rule), especially since "as druid" says it all.



If gaining an animal companion "as a druid" was enough to include a given class in that prohibition, then Ranger wouldn't have needed a mention.


Indeed, they didn't need to mention rangers. They chose to do so anyway.



As I said, the reason why Druids and Rangers wouldn't gain a magebred animal companion makes absolutely no sense for a Sorcerer or Wizard, which would be a good reason why the same prohibition doesn't include those classes. From what I can see, they intentionally did not include other classes which may be able to gain an animal companion (a Fighter with levels in Beastmaster, for example) because they did not intend for the prohibition to apply to such characters. Only characters of classes which have built-in flavor regarding a reverence of nature are prohibited from gaining magebred animal companions.


That's a reasonable interpretation, but entirely an RAI argument. Of course, you can houserule however you want.



Druids and Rangers of Breland never had Polar Bears or Dire Lions available as animal companions.


That doesn't change the validity of my point at all. Let's review:



Please refer to the actual rules from Five Nations (the source you base your argument on). I've quoted the relevant partsHere is the section again, for your convenience, with bolding of the relevant sections. : "A druid from Breland of 7th level or higher or a ranger from Breland of 14th level or higher may select a magebred brown bear as her animal companion instead of a polar bear."

Obviously, the magebred brown bear is equivalent to a polar bear according to the book (for a druid/ranger from Breland that is, no one else).

Now, you can assume that there is a mistake. Basically, there are three options:


Perhaps the author confused when polar bears are accessible to druids.
Perhaps druid/rangers from Breland do have earlier access to polar bears than other druid/rangers.
Perhaps the author thought that magebred brown bears are equivalent to brown bears.



Given the explicit reference to brown bears and polar bears in the relevant rules and the apparent exclusion of option 2, only option 1 seems likely. Option 3 doesn't seem likely at all. YMMV.



If there was a modifier to your effective druid level for having a magebred version of a given companion, then it would have been spelled out.


Don't forget that we are talking about two exceptions here, not a general rule (you want to make it one, but that isn't RAW). If they didn't spell it out, it's simply not a general rule.

RAI one could infer that they didn't want to make it a general rule.

The two exceptions very clearly show that a magebred animal companion is more powerful than a regular companion (magebred brown bear = polar bear, etc.).

If anything, you could infer that Magebred is roughly worth a -3 adjustement to the effective druid level from the rules text regarding brown/polar bears. But assuming that it's supposed to apply to other animals than those specifically mentioned isn't supported by RAW.



Warbeast is a template that can be added to any animal via the Handle Animal skill. Since an Animal Companion is still an animal, it can gain the Warbeast template. It will still be an animal companion even after it becomes a warbeast.


[Citation needed] for the latter claim.

I'd probably allow it in my games, though.

Even if it's ok, it doesn't prove your point. Assuming you can train your companion in this way, it's still a regular animal ("base creature") when you pick it, so there's no contradiction. With the wild cohort / companion it's different: whichever rules you apply first, the animal ceases to be a "base creature" as required by the rules, so it's not a legal target for the other.



You say that because a creature doesn't appear on the list, it can't be gained as an animal companion. I gave examples of other creatures that don't appear on the list but are definitely available as animal companions.


Everything you mentioned are explicit rules that add to the available choices (i.e., the list). That's how rules work. They provide a baseline (the list in the PHB) and other rules provide explicit exceptions that are then also valid (sich as the celestial companion). But just because these exceptions exist, doesn't mean everything can be an animal companion.



I'm through arguing it with you, this discussion is over.

Great. I'm sure everyone can now decide for themselves which arguments to follow.

[2gig]

Since people have been suggesting increasing caster level, especially with arcane thesis, I thought I should point out.

If you take Lesser Fire Orb as your Arcane Thesis, it gets to CL8. It's easy enough to get it to 9 from there, Spell Thematics, Spellgifted, or ideally, Fiery Burst. Not only do you get a 5d8 Lesser Fire Orb, but you can Empower it as a 2nd level spell or Maximize it as a 3rd level spell. On top of that, if you leave one 3rd level spell slot available and you take the Fiery Burst route of hitting 9CL for Lesser Fire Orb, the Fiery Burst feat gives you 3d6 (5-foot radius, 30ft range :-/) with unlimited uses per day.

Edit: If Fire Immune enemies become a problem, you can apply the Searing Spell Metamagic for free thanks to Arcane Thesis. Fire Immunes still take half damage from a Searing Spell. Sadly, this cannot be applied to the unlimited-use attack from Fiery Burst, which is technically not even a spell or SLA.

[gorfnab]

Sorcerer 5/ Mage of the Arcane Order 1 is fairly decent for E6.