[3.5e]New guy I need your help with planing a character

[ZaSeroulIs]

Hello, I am mostly new to D&D. I played like one or two session of 4e but it as mostly roleplaying no track of gear or anything.

I discussed with a guy talking about his sessions of D&D (3.5e) and when he told me that he was going to start a new party I immidiatly jumped in. He gave me like 2 weeks to prepare myself for what I want to role as and told me I was free to role anything as long as it is within the PHB I & II , the 4 "Races of" books and the Complete Books (no Complete Psionic). and can stay on only to 2 basic Classes and 2 Prestige Classes.

I took like one a week to read most of them because everything was so fascinating and to link everything togeher I had to do a lot of reading back and forth. At the same time I was reading posts on the internet and I must say the nicest ones were of this forum. So I picked this forum to ask for advice and I would love to get some tips or suggestions.

I want to do an Invisible Blade, kinda like the agile smart guy that when something he didn't think off happens he gets in trouble.
(NOTE: my DM allows each lvl retrain of a feat or of skill points and I think I can probably convince him to instead of requiring the ranged feats for IB to switch them for Weapon Finess and Two Weapon Fighting, well he look positive the last time I asked him).

Race: Human (?)

Feats

{table]LVL|Feats|Class LVL| Notes

1 | TWF, Deft Hands | Rogue 1 | Deft Hands are going to be retrained.|

3 | Weapon Finesse, Quick Draw,Weapon Focus (kukri) | Ro.2 Swashbuckler 1 | Deft Hands retrained, Skill Trick [Hidden Blade] or [Sudden Draw]|

6 | Daring Outlaw | Ro.3 Sw.3 | Alt. Class. Feature: Death's Ruin > Trap Sense gone.|

9 |Combat Reflexes | Ro.6 Sw.3 | Skill Trick [Acrobatic Backstab]|

12 | Vexing flanker | Ro.9 Sw.3 | |

13 | | Ro.10 Sw.3 | Special Ability: Opportunist|

15 | Savvy Rogue | Ro.11 Sw.4 | Taking 1 more Sw. for just that one more fortitude and to have an odd number of lvl between Ro. and Sw. for Daring Outlaw|

18 | Staggering Strike | Ro.11 Sw.4 IB. 3 | Sometime around here I will remove my armor and wear normal clothes suggesting that Studded leather has +3 AC and IB 3 will gain 3 IntBonus to AC and I will no longer suffer Armor check Penalties.|

20 | DEAR GOD I STILL LIVE? |Ro.11 Sw.4 IB. 5 | | [/table]

Skills
I think I will focus on maxing Bluff, Tumble, Hide, Move Silently and give some focus on Slight of Hand (depends on the Skill trick I want to take), Diplomacy Disable Divice, Search, Spot and Listen and at least one rank on the rest. I haven't really planted out the skill points just what I think my character should be able to do. As an example the Hidden Blade / Sudden Draw skill trick is in his character.

As Ability scores
STR: Dump
DEX: at least 15 points(for TWF)
INT: Biggest Number (after required Dex 15) on this and boosting it out through the levels for Insightful Strike and Unfettered Defense (this just recuires INTmod to be max 5)
CON: this will be the next bigger number after INT and DEX because I will get slaughtered in melee
WIS: If I can put somethign here it would be nice. My will saves will be low
CHA: hoping this will get not too much of a hit. Would be nice if I can give it something.

My stats will be rolled the day before the session. I just wanted to hear you opinions and suggestions. Mostly because I'm afraid that I have overlooked something. :)

[JeminiZero]

First of all: Welcome to GITP... and here is an example on how to use tables :smallsmile:

{table]LVL | Feats | Class LVL | Notes)
1|TWF, Deft Hands|Rogue 1|Deft Hands are going to be retrained.

3|Weapon Finesse, Quick Draw,Weapon Focus (kukri)| Ro.2 Swashbuckler 1| Deft Hands retrained, Skill Trick [Hidden Blade] or [Sudden Draw]

6|Daring Outlaw | Ro.3 Sw.3|Alt. Class. Feature: Death's Ruin > Trap Sense gone.

9|Combat Reflexes| Ro.6 Sw.3| Skill Trick [Acrobatic Backstab]

12| Vexing flanker| Ro.9 Sw.3|

13| (none) | Ro.10 Sw.3| Special Ability: Opportunist

15| Savvy Rogue | Ro.11 Sw.4 | Taking 1 more Sw. for just that one more fortitude and to have an odd number of lvl between Ro. and Sw. for Daring Outlaw

18| Staggering Strike | Ro.11 Sw.4 IB 3.| Sometime around here I will remove my armor and wear normal clothes suggesting that Studded leather has +3 AC and IB 3 will gain 3 IntBonus to AC and I will no longer suffer Armor check Penalties.

20| DEAR GOD I STILL LIVE?
[/table]

(If you want to examine the code, just quote my post)

[Gavinfoxx]

Consider Mithral Chain Shirt for high quality armor. 0 ACP

Also, normal leather armor has 0 ACP.

Also Masterwork studded leather has 0 ACP.

Just saying.

Why are you focusing on weapon focus kukri? Doesn't Invisible Blade only work with daggers?

Also, have you read the errata for those books, especially invisible blade?

Make sure to take Swashbuckler at level 2. Most of your damage is going to be when flanking and standing still when making two weapon attacks... realize that you aren't all THAT mobile...

Is the SRD an allowed source? How about Complete Champion?

[ZaSeroulIs]

the books that are allowed are PH I, PH II , Comple Adventurer, Complete Arcane, Comple Champion, Complete Divine , Comple Mage, Complete Scoundrel, Complete Warrior, Races of Destiny, Races of Stone, Races of Dragon, Races of the Wild.
Generally I think my DM will allow me to set as a prerequisite of IB weapon Focus, and as I get the expertise from SW, I believe the kukri is the best choise (IB uses either kukri, dagger or punching dagger) just because of one point wider critical threat.

That's all btw what is "SRD" ?

And Im still working on the table :P
EDIT: I did the table ! WOOHOO. Thanks JeminiZero :)

[JoshuaZ]

The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) is the essentially free copy of the basic rules, generally material from the Players Handbook and the Dungeonmaster's Guide with most of the fluff stripped out.

[ZaSeroulIs]

as far as the informations in there are exactly like the book everything is ok. I don't know if my DM use the "errata".

[Gavinfoxx]

Okay... if you have access to Complete Champion, your mobility just potentially went up GREATLY.

Does your DM use multiclassing penalties?

The SRD contains things not in those books; it contains things from books such as Unearthed Arcana, Expanded Psionics Handbook, Epic Level Handbook, etc etc. We mention the SRD because it is very easily accessible online.

Here's an page of Errata. Check Complete Warrior Errata, for example:

TYPO FIXED

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a

The errata

[ZaSeroulIs]

My DM only allows to have 2 basic classes and 2 prestige. I am not use. If I had to guess I would say he doesn't use multiclassing penalties.

And from you answer I guess we can't use SRD.

... are you sure you linked me the errata? Its like 4:30 AM here and the title of the post tingled my Sense Motive check.

[Gavinfoxx]

Eh, that's what i get for not double checking. FIXED.

Did he say why he was limiting you to two base classes and two prestige classes? That is a really odd houserule... it definitely nixes classes that are the main ways of, you know, actually making the whole, 'mobile, dextrous rogue, darting in and out to get in a perfect striking position, and doing a flurry of nimble strikes' thing. Because by default your guy might just tumble into position and then stay there, and if you don't have that two base class / two prc thing, you can actually PLAY the dextrous, mobile melee combatant I am sure you are envisioning.

Are you familiar with the concept of reflavoring classes and abilities? Is your DM familiar with that concept? What does he think of it?

Are there any other houserules we should know about?

The SRD is here:

http://www.d20srd.org/

[ZaSeroulIs]

only storyline thingies. He mainly said "Use these books and don't get more than 2 basic and 2 prestige classes". Its probably to prevent... well i dont remember how it is called... when you put many classes together... damnit google you fail me. Anyway It doesn't seem too wierd to me... but what do I know.

[Gavinfoxx]

When you get lots of classes together, as long as they make a singular cohesive concept, and all the abilities are appropriate to that concept... you get... get this. A character that can do the thing that concept is described as doing!

SHOCKING, I KNOW!

For example, I would personally stat out Robert E Howard's Conan (in his later years, when he is at the peak of his power) as a:

Spirit Lion Totem, Bear Totem, Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2 / Wilderness, Penetrating Strike Rogue 3 / Strong-Arm, Skilled City Dweller (trade Ride for Tumble) Ranger 3 / Zhentarim Soldier, Thug, Dungeon Crusher, Hit and Run, Physical Prowess, Skilled City Dweller (trade Ride for Tumble) Fighter 3 / Warblade 3.

That's Barbarian/Rogue/Ranger/Fighter/Warblade. Five base classes, and level 14 (about where his abilities peg him). And every one of those classes adds something that Conan can plausibly be considered able to do in the stories. This character doesn't lack focus, this character is simply one that is replicating the abilities shown in the source material!

[ZaSeroulIs]

hahaha I mean the thing where you break the game.Maybe the rule is because one of the guys that is going to be in this party optimises the heck out of his builds or thats what I have been told.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you don't want to break the game, stay away from these classes:

Cleric
Wizard
Druid
Archivist
Artificer
Convert Spell to Power variant Erudite

Those are the Big Five (Sometimes Big Six) (http://www.myth-weavers.com/wiki/index.php/Big_Five_FAQ) with all the Story Breaking Powers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StoryBreakerPower) described in the Tier System for Base classes. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=658.0)

In other words, if you don't want to break the game, as a DM, one of the simplest things you can do is ban most of what's in the Players Handbook.

Also? None of those classes get the primary game breaking abilities from classes via multiclassing. All multiclassing to a large extent does is perhaps bring the non game breaking classes up some. After all, spellcasters dont really multiclass at all (it weakens them significantly); they generally just Prestige Class, and there are very few prestige classes that make spellcasters MORE game breaking.

[ZaSeroulIs]

Well I can use only what I have at my hands :P.
When you said that Complete Champion improved my mobility greatily what did you mean? At the same time is there a way to instead of Death's Ruin to get with these books something better for the undead encounters?
Also, any suggestion around Skill Tricks I could use, or feats that could replace the ones I chose are pretty much apreciated.

[Gavinfoxx]

It only helps if you can take dips beyond two classes, unfortunately.

If you can, look at

Whirling Frenzy (SRD) Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion) Barbarian 1 (PHB) as a dip. Gets you a ragelike thing to get an extra attack on a standard action, and Pounce. Reflavor this as your swashbuckler focus and mobility and your advanced martial arts, don't do anything with it being feral or barbaric or anything like that.

Or..

Animal Devotion (Complete Champion) Travel Devotion (Complete Champion) Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) Cloistered (SRD) Cleric 1 (PHB). Gets you movement with your swift action, some sneak attack like stuff if you take the creature knowledges, tactical flight... and if you don't have enough wisdom to cast divine prayers, you can reflavor the dip as completely martial, albeit achieving overtly supernatural effects (should you choose Animal Devotion rather than Strength Devotion or Law Devotion or whatever). Never actually TURN undead, use it to fuel your devotions.

And undead encounters with sneak attack based characters need more books than you have, sadly. Dungeonscape, Magic Item Compendium, Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, stuff like that.

[ZaSeroulIs]

I guess I can kick out Savvy Rogue for a Devotion.

[Randomguy]

Put some ranks in Use Magic Device so that you can use wands. A wand of grave strike, a wand of vine strike and a wand of golem strike would let you use sneak attack on undead, plants and golems, respectively. (The wand of vine strike is the least important). These spells are all in complete adventurer. A wand of grease could also be useful, since it can make enemies flat footed if they don't have ranks in balance, which would let you sneak attack them.

Try to have at least 10 strength, otherwise you take a penalty to damage. In general, if you can put some spare points there, then that would be good.

It would be better to get into Invisible Blade as early as possible so that you can get more use out of your intelligence score, and then continue taking levels in rogue or swashbuckler.

There's an alternate class feature for swashbuklers that you can take in complete mage that trades grace away for a spell like ability you can use 1+ int mod times per day. The spell only lasts for a round, but it's still worth taking since you've got great reflex saves already from your rogue levels.

If you start off at level 1 then I suggest that your second level be in swashbuckler, instead of your third, since with low strength you're going to have a tough time in combat for level 1 and 2 without weapon finesse. The reason I say swashbuckler at 2nd level and not 1st is because if you take rogue at first level you get 12 more skill points than you otherwise would have (In your end result, not just in that level), and this way you still get sneak attack at 1st level.

[Gavinfoxx]

You don't generally want a devotion without a Cloistered Cleric dip... cause that gets you THREE devotions, and class features which fuel them so they work more than 1/day (and okay, Knowledge Devotion which can work with every attack, if you get all the creature knowledges. and maybe collector of stories.)

The thing with those wands... lots of that stuff is in Spell Compendium, but some might be in Complete Divine or Complete Arcane, I suppose.

You would need to get a houserule if you trade away grace for daring outlaw to work with that. Ask the DM.

Also consider if Daring Outlaw works with Sneak Attack Fighter or Sneak Attack Thug fighter from SRD. Ask the DM about that.

[ZaSeroulIs]

The thing about getting early IB is that I stop wearing any armor earlier that taking Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ro.8) then any enemy that flanks me is going to destroy me.

As for the Alt. F. for SW. its nice but I don't know a thing about spells (guess it's more reading for me) and it required Knowledge Arcana, can I ....get it as a multiclass skill? If so I can change my Deft Hands to Able learner and before retraining get that 1 rank?

Also I want 3 ranks on Swashbuckler for the Insightful strike. I dont know if im being too focused on this but I really like it.. and Daring Outlaw is like a bandage for the sneak attack I would lose.

[Gavinfoxx]

Improved Uncanny Dodge isn't worth building your build around -- really. Also take a look at the Complete Warrior Errata. It seriously nerfs invisible blade, such that you tend to need an exotic feat from... Drow of the Underdark, I think, if the whole 'feint and full attack' thing is a part of your main schtick.

3 Levels of Swashbuckler is good, but if you take more, make sure the Daring Outlaw bit is making the class more worthwhile.

[ZaSeroulIs]

"The invisible blade can use his uncanny feint ability
once per round." doesn't seem to much of a deal, Its a free action... and then you can full attack? Also why is improved uncanny dodge not worth it? ... is it because is better to re-position myself when they are going to flank me? Improved Uncanny dodge its a nice feat and I mostly go for the opportunist (Ro.10) so its on my way.

[ZaSeroulIs]

Should I maybe ditch IB? if so shall i go like Ro.17 Sw.3 ? and get Savvy Rogue on the list?

[Gavinfoxx]

Once per round, and then it works on the first attack you make.

So you can't get sneak attack on your full attack with two weapon fighting on it. It only lasts for the FIRST attack you make, the rest? No dice.

Which is why you need access to the Drow of the Underdark feat "Surprising Riposte", because that means that if you hit with any attack you make after you feint, the enemy becomes flatfooted, and you can deal the rest of your sneak attack damage to them. Hit them on the first attack, and all of your attacks with that feint will be sneak attack.

Consider this:

Thug Sneak Attack Fighter 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Feat Rogue 14 - take Daring Outlaw feat, and get 11d6 sneak attack, 16 BAB, and 8 Fighter bonus feats.

Try and get your DM to let you do that.

[ZaSeroulIs]

Ok here is the thing I wanted the agile smart-ass (kinda for comic relief) but it seems I cannot succed it with IB (he would like ditch his armor and everytime he would dodge I would shout "I forsaw that shortie(halfling)!") but if there is another prestige class that can fit in that roll and at the same time have a nice damage (IB has 5d6 sneak attack) it would be marvelous.

[Gavinfoxx]

Ask for permission to lift the restriction on only two base classes, provided you are going with a single, cohesive archetype.

Really.

That is the best advice I can encourage you to do. That simple, simple build I showed you? 16 BAB, 8 Fighter Feats, 11d6 Sneak Attack by level 20. It is damn near the iconic way to do what you want.

[ZaSeroulIs]

I understand that only multiclass 2 basic and 2 prestige classes is kinda hard for what I want to do but I don't believe my DM will allow it. I was in front when others of the party asked him and to all of them he said "No. You can't, sorry".

[Arcanist]

I must say, I am in complete shock that nobody has recommend Chameleon from Races of Destiny which allows you to do a little bit of everything...

When you manage to accomplish a skill check that the is giving the party some trouble play this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtwJvgPJ9xw) and yes you are completely entitled to substitute that with this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9qYF9DZPdw) :smallamused:

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, maybe time to do some ACF-Stacking, then. Figure out how many of these you can stack on Fighter, and would actually USE, maybe? And if they can work as 'rogue' for Daring Outlaw if you get the Sneak Attack variant?

Thug http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug

Sneak Attack variant http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter

Zhentarim Soldier http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a

Skilled City Dweller (Tumble instead of Ride) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a

Hit-And-Run Tactics (Drow of the Underdark pg 58)

Dungeon Crasher (Dungeonscape pg 10)

Exoticist or Fencer (Dragon Magazine 310 pg 35)

Resolute (Complete Champion pg 48)

[ZaSeroulIs]

Chameleon is kinda funny "What? Stealth?Check. Combat?Check. Divine Powers?? Check!...what you want more? Check.".

I would like to focus on being a rogue as it fits more into the background that I want to give to the character as he is kind of a theif.

[Gavinfoxx]

Let's consider the skills you can get as a Skilled City Dweller Thug, then:

Climb, Jump, Swim, Tumble, Sleight of Hand, Craft, Knowledge Local, Bluff, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate.

So... what parts of that skill list means you can't be a competent thief, knave, and rogue, then??

It just means that you are a second story burglar who gets in when they aren't home, and maybe a pickpocket or mugger or con-man, and not a sneak thief. DONE!

So lvl1: Sneak Attack Thug Fighter
Lvl2: Swashbuckler.

EDIT:

Forgot the Fighter and Swashbuckler Dead Levels bonuses:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x

And what did the DM say about Daring Outlaw working if you replace Grace with that better class feature, or working with Sneak Attack Fighter?

[Gavinfoxx]

One thing I noticed...

NEVER GET DEFT HANDS. NEVER GET THE +2/+2 SKILL FEATS, EVER EVER EVER.

THEY ALL UNIVERSALLY SUCK.

Also, here is the Fighter handbook:

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870606/The_Fighters_Handbook_--_2007

And here is the Rogue handbook:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156350

Read them both!

And a few more useful handbooks:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157722
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6893722&postcount=35

[ZaSeroulIs]

I don't really want to anger you because you are the one that gives the most concetration on me with this but is Skilled City Dweller Thug in my allowed books? I am kind of confused.
And as for Deft Hands its just a dummy it represents something to get at lvl 1 that will be replaced maybe even at lvl 2 (if I Ro.1 Sw.1).

[Gavinfoxx]

It is all online. I was assuming that the guy could read online webpages, you know. That's why I kept on asking, "Can he use SRD? Can he use SRD? It's online and easy to find."

Is he willing to use online stuff from wotc in general? I was presuming the book issue was because of what he had easy access to. If you can provide the link, isn't it pretty easy? Each of the class features can be described in like one line, two at most. It's not hard, and its not unbalanced. This is a FIGHTER we are talking about.

[ZaSeroulIs]

He doesn't use online. He might use errata for the book ( I don't know though). Anything else is as it is in the books and I as for the IB I think I can convincehim because it's feats are not logical.

EDIT: It kinda cool that I have like 13 and I feel I have a lot of choises and you feel that my 13 books are too little. I think that this game is going to be a blast.

[Gavinfoxx]

You are 100% sure of that, then?

He will never ever use an online feat or option that came from Wizards of the Coast specifically?

The problem is, the archetype you are going for requires a lot of specific stuff to work.

If you wanted to be a powerful Cleric or Wizard or whatever, your books would be great... but you want to be a two weapon fighting dextrous highly mobile high DPR light weapon melee striker.

That requires... sooooo many sources to really get to work, because that sort of thing started as really really weak to begin with, and gradually got to 'acceptible' power level as time (and splatbook access) gradually went on throughout the edition.

This sort of character type is FREAKING HARD to get to do more than a piddling amount of damage, and is really hard to actually make a MOBILE combatant.

[ZaSeroulIs]

Hmmm I think we can't do many things without asking my DM about more detailed limits. I guess we will stop here and ask my DM or the veteran player of the group (like 6 years or something) to help me out on this idea :|

Thanks for your help though. You changed the way I search at classes and feats :D I am glad that there are people like you how take some of their time to help new players (especially in my cases that they have limited resources).