Samurai Sword Question: STOP THE CONFUSION!

[Tomokun]

Hi guys!

So I've been going back and forth with the DM, trying to understand this. Will you guys please tell me where either I'm wrong, or he's confused?

As a 6th level SAMURAI (duh, why'd I type monk?), I should be able to enhance my Katana to a +1 Keen Katana for:

A) 2,000 GP (that was what I thought, but now I think...)
B) 4,000 GP (this is what I think now)
C) 8,000 GP (this is what the GM says).


I included a chart in a later post.

HELP!

[BlueEyes]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#addingNewAbilities
Actually you're both wrong. You'll pay 6k. When upgrading magic items, you pay the full price of the finished item minus the price of the item you're upgrading. So 8k - 2k = 6k.

[VGLordR2]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm
Actually you're both wrong. You'll pay 6k. When upgrading magic items, you pay the full price of the finished item minus the price of the item you're upgrading. So 8k - 2k = 6k.

He's upgrading from a normal Katana to the +1 Keen Katana. He doesn't have the +1 enhancement yet. So it would be 8,000 GP. If it was already a +1, then it would only be 6,000 GP.

[Ziegander]

Also you need to spend 300g making the Katana masterwork, if it isn't already.

[BlueEyes]

Yeah, I fail at reading. 8 it is.


Also you need to spend 300g making the Katana masterwork, if it isn't already.
If it isn't masterwork you can't make it masterwork. you'd have to buy a new one.

[Andrewmoreton]

C) (this is what the GM says).



The correct answer is pretty much what the GM says as long as he applies the same rules consistently for all PC's .
(also he's right for RAW, but thats less relevant)

[Gavinfoxx]

Upgrade normal katana to masterwork -> impossible
Upgrade normal katana to magic -> impossible
Upgrade masterwork katana to +1 -> 2000 gp
Upgrade Masterwork katana to +1 keen -> 8000 gp
upgrade +1 katana to +1 keen -> 6000 gp

[Tomokun]

Upgrade normal katana to masterwork -> impossible
Upgrade normal katana to magic -> impossible
Upgrade masterwork katana to +1 -> 2000 gp
Upgrade Masterwork katana to +1 keen -> 8000 gp
upgrade +1 katana to +1 keen -> 6000 gp

Maybe this helps!
Ancestral Daisho: All samurai begin play with a katana and
a wakizashi-two masterwork weapons. These are weapons
that belonged to the samurai's ancestors, and protecting the
weapons is an important point of honor for the samurai. As a
samurai acquires treasure through adventuring, he has the
option of awakening the supernatural abilities latent in the
weapons. This option allows a samurai who prefers to use his
ancestral blade to wield a magic weapon, while a samurai who wields a tetsubo against Shadowlands fiends can use his treasure
to acquire new jade or magic weapons.


The samurai must meet the minimum character level
(including any prestige class levels) shown on the table, and he
must spend one day per 1,000 gp sacrificed in the shrine or
temple. During this time, he must spend at least 8 hours each
day kneeling before his ancestors and his weapons, not stop-,
ping to eat or rest . Many samurai request the assistance of a
shugenja in this process, but a shugenja is not required .

The values shown onTable 2-2 are the total value of sacrifice
required to bring a single weapon to the listed weapon bonus. If
a samurai already has a +3 katana, he can raise it to a +4 katana by
sacrificing 14,000 gp and spending two weeks in prayer. If the
same samurai wanted to bring his masterwork wakizashi to a +1
wakizashi, he would have to sacrifice 2,000 gp.

Before a samurai's ancestral sword becomes a +1 weapon, it is
an ordinary masterwork weapon in every way. Its latent supernatural
powers do not cause it to be considered a magic weapon
until those powers are awakened .
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-c-6xJcfhCAQ/T-JCu2tx3QI/AAAAAAAABuI/Expeo1PM1gE/s399/Samurai%2520Weapon%2520enhancement.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-c-6xJcfhCAQ/T-JCu2tx3QI/AAAAAAAABuI/Expeo1PM1gE/s399/Samurai%2520Weapon%2520enhancement.jpg

[maximus25]

This has nothing to do with your question, but seeing as how it's been answered, here goes.

Why are you a monk with a katana? Monk may be subpar but I don't think it can even use swords. And if you took the feat to use a katana, why not just play something else?

[Tomokun]

This has nothing to do with your question, but seeing as how it's been answered, here goes.

Why are you a monk with a katana? Monk may be subpar but I don't think it can even use swords. And if you took the feat to use a katana, why not just play something else?

Sorry, monk was a typo - I mean Samurai. :p

[maximus25]

Alright, clears that up. Carry on.

[Hiro Protagonest]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-c-6xJcfhCAQ/T-JCu2tx3QI/AAAAAAAABuI/Expeo1PM1gE/s399/Samurai%2520Weapon%2520enhancement.jpg

...It's still the same. The Ancestral Daisho is a masterwork katana. The prices are exactly the same as the ones listed for magic weapons in the DMG.

[Tomokun]

...It's still the same. The Ancestral Daisho is a masterwork katana. The prices are exactly the same as the ones listed for magic weapons in the DMG.

See, and this is why I get confused on this - because the rules seem to explicitly say that the price you pay is cumulative. By the end of all the gold you've invested, you would have a +5 Katana with +5 worth of special abilities according to the text and the example below the chart.

The values shown onTable 2-2 are the total value of sacrifice
required to bring a single weapon to the listed weapon bonus. If
a samurai already has a +3 katana, he can raise it to a +4 katana by
sacrificing 14,000 gp and spending two weeks in prayer. If the
same samurai wanted to bring his masterwork wakizashi to a +1
wakizashi, he would have to sacrifice 2,000 gp.

[Worira]

Yeah, and that's exactly how it works with a regular magic weapon.

[VGLordR2]

This has confused me for a long time; perhaps you folks can enlighten me. If Ancestral Daisho works the same way as normally enchanting a weapon, what is the point?

[Hiro Protagonest]

This has confused me for a long time; perhaps you folks can enlighten me. If Ancestral Daisho works the same way as normally enchanting a weapon, what is the point?

You need a temple instead of a crafting caster.

It's a fluff ability, though.

[Gavinfoxx]

So... you don't actually gain anything from that set of class features other than, "Not needing to go to town for a Wizard to enchant your gear when you get the money to do so."

[Tomokun]

Yeah, and that's exactly how it works with a regular magic weapon.

*Sigh* I still think it's confusing... but I think I get it.

Basically, I'm paying for the +1 (2k)

Then, I'm paying for the +1 special ability (+2K because of the +1 and then another +2K for Keen)...

which is a total of 6K.

Do I got it now?

[Gavinfoxx]

"Ancestor Spirits/Friendly Wizard, please enchant this masterwork sword of my family"

"That will be 2000 gp"

"Okay"

(time passes)

"Ancestor Spirits/Friendly Wizard, please enchant this now magical sword to also have a magically keen edge."

"That will be 6000 gp."

"Okay"

**his buddy goes**

"Ancestor Spirits/Friendly Wizard, please enchant this masterwork sword to be magic and also have a magically keen edge."

"That will be 8000 gp"

[Mnemnosyne]

No. What's the total equivalent + bonus of the weapon once all enchantments are considered?

+1 is a +1, obviously.
Keen is valued at +1.

Total bonus: +2.

According to that table, the total sacrifice needed to bring a weapon up to +2 is 8000 gp. You paid 2000 to get the katana to get +1. Now if you want to add Keen to it, you need to pay another 6000 to get it to +2 for a total of 8000 paid.

As for what the point of the class feature is, I may be misremembering, but I don't recall any rules in the DMG about upgrading existing weapons. Those rules were eventually in the MiC, but I think the 'point' might be that at the time the Samurai was printed, you couldn't just upgrade your weapon - you would have to get an entirely new one.

[eggs]

This has confused me for a long time; perhaps you folks can enlighten me. If Ancestral Daisho works the same way as normally enchanting a weapon, what is the point?

A CW Samurai and an OA Samurai rough up a bound and gagged wizard and take his stuff. His stuff consists of two rings of wizardry VI (100k value).

Neither can use the rings, but they split them up anyway.
The CW Samurai sells his ring for 50k, enhances his magic sword to +5.
The OA Samurai sacrifices his ring, enhances his magic sword to +7.

This isn't useful when building a character for a one-shot or arena or anything short-term. But in a longer-running campaign, it's a handy ability to have.

[Namfuak]

I was just thinking - if the ancestral katana and wakizashi are lost, and the Samurai picks up a regular (non-masterwork) bastard sword and short sword, do all the class features not work for those (besides the EWP: Bastard Sword), because they are specified to be a masterwork bastard sword and short sword?

[Hiro Protagonest]

I was just thinking - if the ancestral katana and wakizashi are lost, and the Samurai picks up a regular (non-masterwork) bastard sword and short sword, do all the class features not work for those (besides the EWP: Bastard Sword), because they are specified to be a masterwork bastard sword and short sword?

Ancestral Daisho doesn't just work for any masterwork katana and wakizashi. It has to be the two you start with.

But I'm not sure what you're talking about. Ancestral Daksho was the only class feature that used those.

[Namfuak]

Ancestral Daisho doesn't just work for any masterwork katana and wakizashi. It has to be the two you start with.

Looking at the Samurai in CW, the katana and wakizashi do not have to be the ones you start with. In fact, only "many" samarai start with ancestral daisho, not all.

It looks like you are right according to OA though.

[Philistine]

OP: Note that per the table you linked, +2 total enhancement doesn't come on line for you until level 7. The most you can do at level 6 is sacrifice 2k gp for a +1 enhancement bonus, then in another level you can sacrifice another 6k gp to add Keen as well.

[Khedrac]

And another reason why this is useful - there is no requirement to be able to cast the spell required to make the enchantment.
E.g. if there's no one around who can cast fireball, the feat "Craft Magic Arms and Armor" won't get "Flaming" on your weapon - but the Samurai can add it to their ancestral weapon.
It's a very minor ability designed to make the samurai a little more self sufficient and not to require you to trust your weapon to someone else for a few weeks to get the top-end enchantments on it.

[Axier]

Its 3rd party, but d20 rokugan adapted the OA samurai to burn EXP insted of money, sacrificing some of your soul to your ancestor spirits to unlock powers within the blade. Talk to your DM about that, because EXP is a beter expense than your WBL, and is far more flavorable.

[KillianHawkeye]

Seems pertinent to note that ALL katana and wakizashi are masterwork weapons by default. A katana is simply a masterwork bastard sword. You cannot have one that isn't masterwork.

[Ashtagon]

Its 3rd party, but d20 rokugan adapted the OA samurai to burn EXP insted of money, sacrificing some of your soul to your ancestor spirits to unlock powers within the blade. Talk to your DM about that, because EXP is a beter expense than your WBL, and is far more flavorable.


"Mighty ancestors, I kneel before you in supplication. Here is the sword I received from my father and my father's father. I call upon you to unleash the enchantments held within it so that I may uphold the family honour."

"G~~i~~v~~e~~ m~~e~~ y~o~u~r~ s~o~u~l~"

Um. no. :smallmad:

[Ingus]

Upgrade normal katana to masterwork -> impossible
Upgrade normal katana to magic -> impossible
Upgrade masterwork katana to +1 -> 2000 gp
Upgrade Masterwork katana to +1 keen -> 8000 gp
upgrade +1 katana to +1 keen -> 6000 gp

This, because...



The values shown onTable 2-2 are the total value of sacrifice
required to bring a single weapon to the listed weapon bonus. If
a samurai already has a +3 katana, he can raise it to a +4 katana by
sacrificing 14,000 gp and spending two weeks in prayer. If the
same samurai wanted to bring his masterwork wakizashi to a +1
wakizashi, he would have to sacrifice 2,000 gp.

[/IMG]

If you look at the table, you may notice that a +4 katana is worth 32k Gp and a +3 katana is 18k Gp.
32-18=14 so you need to spend 14k to pump a +3 to a +4.

Formula: NewPrice - OldPrice = ImprovementCost

[Axier]

"Mighty ancestors, I kneel before you in supplication. Here is the sword I received from my father and my father's father. I call upon you to unleash the enchantments held within it so that I may uphold the family honour."

"G~~i~~v~~e~~ m~~e~~ y~o~u~r~ s~o~u~l~"

Um. no. :smallmad:


That is a lack of spirituality. Its more like paying a spiritual tribute than saying "Hey, heres some cash for you dead people who can't use it."

As for OP's question, I think it has been answered, but there is I think a weapon that functions much like a bastard sword (Katana), but with 1 step lower damage die, but an 18-20 crit range, but I can't remember what it was. If you want something with more crits. Because I assume a crit build.

[ThiagoMartell]

The Ancestral Daisho class feature and the Ancestral relic feat are both very useful if you don't want to play a spellcaster and you don't live in Magic Mart Land.

I find it funny that usually in optimization discussions, all wizards are paranoid self-sufficient lunatics. They need no money, because their spells generate everything they need, including trade goods (and eventually money). Why those same wizards would spend days of their time enchanting a weapon for some one eludes me. :smalltongue:

Yeah, I hate Magic Marts.

[Essence_of_War]

This has confused me for a long time; perhaps you folks can enlighten me. If Ancestral Daisho works the same way as normally enchanting a weapon, what is the point?

It lets you turn treasure directly into enhancement to your weapon instead of turning into gold to pay a caster first.

Let's say you find a +2 naginata. Approximate value 8kgp. You though, would rather enhance your daisho than use a naginata. Normally, to enhance your daisho from the gp value of the naginata, you'd have to sell the naginata for gold 8kgp value -> 4kgp of gold. Then pay the 4kgp to a wizard to enhance. You've effectively lost half of the value of the naginata.

By contrast, with ancestral daisho, you can sacrifice this 8kgp naginata to your ancestral spirits, and enhance your daisho directly for 8kgp rather than 4kgp.

Basically, ancestral daisho doubles the value of any treasure you find that you choose to put toward enhancing your ancestral daisho. It effectively increases your WBL. It's worth at least a feat (see Ancestral Relic, BoED), and can actually be a pretty valuable to a martial character.

[Answerer]

It really shouldn't increase WBL by RAW, because by RAW a character's wealth should be as listed in the table – not his total income, but what he actually got out of that money. If your players sell everything they find for gold, they should be finding more things to compensate. If they keep everything they find, they should find less things to compensate. All told, they're supposed to end up somewhere close to WBL.

This is unlike the crafting feats, which explicitly allow you to have items that cost less than they usually do, and therefore do not take up as much of your wealth as they usually would.

[Ashtagon]

That is a lack of spirituality. Its more like paying a spiritual tribute than saying "Hey, heres some cash for you dead people who can't use it."

My point is, the ancestor and the character are on the same side. And the ancestor knows the descendent is the only one who can effectively defend their shrine and has the immediate motivation to do so. Why would the ancestor seek to weaken their defender?

I see the gold cost as "wealth that is deposited into the clan coffers for the family emergency fund, and so is no longer available to the character except in so far as he has standing in the clan".

[Essence_of_War]

It really shouldn't increase WBL by RAW, because by RAW a character's wealth should be as listed in the table – not his total income, but what he actually got out of that money. If your players sell everything they find for gold, they should be finding more things to compensate. If they keep everything they find, they should find less things to compensate. All told, they're supposed to end up somewhere close to WBL.

This is unlike the crafting feats, which explicitly allow you to have items that cost less than they usually do, and therefore do not take up as much of your wealth as they usually would.

That's a fair reading of WBL in this context also. If you take that view of how Ancestral Daisho works, I think you're removing value from martial characters and I would probably replace the OA daisho class feature with the Rokugan Campaign setting's daisho feature. It lets you trade xp for gp, just like crafting.

[Answerer]

That's a fair reading of WBL in this context also. If you take that view of how Ancestral Daisho works, I think you're removing value from martial characters and I would probably replace the OA daisho class feature with the Rokugan Campaign setting's daisho feature. It lets you trade xp for gp, just like crafting.
Frankly, I'd just ban all of the above for being awful and underpowered, and suggest people play a martial adept, a psychic warrior, or a cleric for these sorts of things.

Though I'll admit only slight familiarity with the OA Samurai and none at all with the Rokugan one.

[Essence_of_War]

Haha fair enough! :smalltongue:

I think the appeal of both of them is that they don't require samurai levels, just character level. So they can be a great dip for a martial class who really wants to use a particular weapon. A 2-level dip gets you a bonus feat, good F/W saves, full BAB, and the daisho, and if you wanted to use a bastard sword anyway, that can be reasonably appealing

[prufock]

See, and this is why I get confused on this - because the rules seem to explicitly say that the price you pay is cumulative. By the end of all the gold you've invested, you would have a +5 Katana with +5 worth of special abilities according to the text and the example below the chart.

All you need to look at is the total effective weapon bonus.
+1 keen katana = + 1 enhancement + Keen (+1 effective bonus) = +2 total bonus

You then look up the price for the total bonus. That's the price you pay. In this case, 8000.

If you are improving a weapon that is already magical, you subtract the cost that you've already paid from the cost of the new total bonus. So, for example, if your weapon was already a +1 katana and you are adding keen:

+1 Keen Katana (8000 gp) - +1 katana (2000 gp) = 6000 gp

Armor works the same way.

[Tomokun]

All you need to look at is the total effective weapon bonus.
+1 keen katana = + 1 enhancement + Keen (+1 effective bonus) = +2 total bonus

You then look up the price for the total bonus. That's the price you pay. In this case, 8000.

If you are improving a weapon that is already magical, you subtract the cost that you've already paid from the cost of the new total bonus. So, for example, if your weapon was already a +1 katana and you are adding keen:

+1 Keen Katana (8000 gp) - +1 katana (2000 gp) = 6000 gp

Armor works the same way.

Ok, for some reason, the way you explained it makes sense. :)

Ok, so here's a follow up question - a simpler one really - is the +1 from masterwork somehow different from a +1 bonus?

[Ashtagon]

Ok, so here's a follow up question - a simpler one really - is the +1 from masterwork somehow different from a +1 bonus?

Yes, they are different.

Masterwork is +1 on attack rolls (or possibly on damage rolls, not with books), but not both attack and damage rolls.

+1 magic bonus applies to both attack and damage rolls.

A weapon must be masterwork before it can receive a magic bonus.

Masterwork and magic do not stack.

Masterwork continues to work in an antimagic field. Magic typically does not.

[ThiagoMartell]

Frankly, I'd just ban all of the above for being awful and underpowered, and suggest people play a martial adept, a psychic warrior, or a cleric for these sorts of things.

Though I'll admit only slight familiarity with the OA Samurai and none at all with the Rokugan one.
Because getting the class features you want is wrong, you should get the class features Answerer wants. :smalltongue:
There is no 'Rokugan samurai', or rather, the Rokugani samurai is the OA samurai class. It has a few extra feats and 'alternate class features' (they don't call it such, but that's what they are) in Rokugan splats, but it's the same class.

[Gwendol]

OA Samurai is a nice enough class, and the OA supplement in general contains several cool classes and PrC's. I like it a lot. I play in Kara-Tur rather than Rokugan though.

[Slipperychicken]

I find it funny that usually in optimization discussions, all wizards are paranoid self-sufficient lunatics. They need no money, because their spells generate everything they need, including trade goods (and eventually money). Why those same wizards would spend days of their time enchanting a weapon for some one eludes me. :smalltongue:


That's just the optimized Wizards. Other Wizards can (and do) exist, they just aren't quite as good at dominating everything. They're the guys who have day jobs like writing scrolls, pumping out magic items, teleporting people around, and other spellcasting services. On Fridays they get drunk with their buddies in the Wizards' Guild and invent silly things like Bags of Tricks and Owlbears. They don't need to go overboard with defenses because they have about as much to fear as any rich tradesman does.

[Nerd648]

Earlier in the thread, people were referring to "Masterwork Katanas" and technically katanas are just masterwork bastard swords.

Sorry if that's nit-picky, but I just felt that I should mention that.

[KillianHawkeye]

Earlier in the thread, people were referring to "Masterwork Katanas" and technically katanas are just masterwork bastard swords.

Sorry if that's nit-picky, but I just felt that I should mention that.

Already been mentioned. :smallwink:

[Togo]

The Ancestral Daisho class feature and the Ancestral relic feat are both very useful if you don't want to play a spellcaster and you don't live in Magic Mart Land.

I find it funny that usually in optimization discussions, all wizards are paranoid self-sufficient lunatics. They need no money, because their spells generate everything they need, including trade goods (and eventually money). Why those same wizards would spend days of their time enchanting a weapon for some one eludes me. :smalltongue:

Yeah, I hate Magic Marts.

It's a very useful power in a campaign where access to magical upgrades are more difficult to get hold of than the weapons themselves. The ability to customise your weapon to your own design is something that's easy to overlook if the games you've been playing routinely hand it to you on a plate.

And of course, fluffwise it's exactly right, since the power of a samurai's blade shouldn't be dependent on finding a passing wizard.

[ThiagoMartell]

It's a very useful power in a campaign where access to magical upgrades are more difficult to get hold of than the weapons themselves. The ability to customise your weapon to your own design is something that's easy to overlook if the games you've been playing routinely hand it to you on a plate.

And of course, fluffwise it's exactly right, since the power of a samurai's blade shouldn't be dependent on finding a passing wizard.

Exactly. Great minds think alike.

[Kira_the_5th]

It's a minor point, but I don't think anyone's brought it up yet. While the costs people have brought up are right, your samurai, at 6th level, can't buy the keen enchantment at all. As it's been said, the weapon counts as a +2 weapon, and costs as such, but you cannot use your class ability to make a +2 weapon until level 7. Nitpicky, but still relevant.

[darkdragoon]

This has confused me for a long time; perhaps you folks can enlighten me. If Ancestral Daisho works the same way as normally enchanting a weapon, what is the point?

You get the full value of the item sacrificed instead of the 50% selling price. Given that a samurai has two weapons to upkeep, this helps somewhat.

[Togath]

Also, dont forget that the ancestral daisho ability only requires a single samurai level, as far as I can tell anyway, making it a decent dip.