Getting templates while in game...

[Kerilstrasz]

We are on a low money, low magic, low everything campaign...
unfortunatelly thats true only for PCs cause DM is using rule 0 to have his npcs do almost anything... so i though... ok... lets find a warewolf.. a vampire... let him bite me... then my group kills him... i got the temps????

how can i make this work and plz provide me a list of "template spreading" creatures i can "use"...

Note: all templates would do cause as PCs we are too weak for the world and any boost is welcome...
Note: if not much trouble provide some monsters that give templates for wizard boost...

Nothing fancy... creatures that a group of 6 about lvl3 can manage...

[Ardantis]

Vampires and Werewolves would kick your groups' teeth in, especially with low magic and money at such a low level. They're very powerful monsters.

As for your DM, it sounds like he's running his world without you. Are you there just to watch?

I'd have a heart-to-heart with your DM. I'm always a proponent of PC-driven stories, and gimping PCs into being unable to participate without flagging down the nearest evil template-granting monster is a disaster waiting to happen. You need to talk.

[Kerilstrasz]

Well... he provided some "items" so a vamp or a warewolf is an easy encounter... the "tuning" he does its more like... "a 2nd lvl core wizard npc with +8 will" or a "2nd lvl core fighter (common town guard) with +10 spot and +10 sense motive" or "a creature running down a stip staircase that avoids a sudden grease just because he knows the place" ...

so... nvm the dificulty... assume a range of CR 0-10...
provide me a list plz...

edit: Uh .. and by the way.. his campaign supports "Good" warewolves or vampires, cause as he sais a creture getting biten may choose to feed on animal and not humans and try to live a good life...
ex. there is a vilage with warewolf mayor.. the vilage knows.. but he is good..
so alignment isnt a problem.

[Tyndmyr]

Well... he provided some "items" so a vamp or a warewolf is an easy encounter... the "tuning" he does its more like... "a 2nd lvl core wizard npc with +8 will" or a "2nd lvl core fighter (common town guard) with +10 spot and +10 sense motive" or "a creature running down a stip staircase that avoids a sudden grease just because he knows the place" ...

so... nvm the dificulty... assume a range of CR 0-10...
provide me a list plz...

The first two are doable, though not expected. The grease avoidance sounds terrible. The "items" sounds like fiat of the highest order.

I would just explain that this is not what rule zero is for. See also, the text in rule zero.

[Kerilstrasz]

the items provided are cursed.. anyway thats not the point... all i need is a list of monsters.. may i plz have that?

[Pilo]

Vampire and were-thing templates are traps. You will become more powerful but you will be weaker for your ECL.

[The Dark Fiddler]

the items provided are cursed.. anyway thats not the point... all i need is a list of monsters.. may i plz have that?

I can't think of any more than lycanthropy or vampirism.

Maybe you could go about becoming a dragonborn, but it's not that big of a boost, not a template, and would cost you money, if I remember correctly.

Anyway, do you have a problem with your DM's style? Because that's what it sounds like. It also sounds like becoming vampires/lycanthropes won't solve much, because he'll just continue making things difficult through fiat. The DM always wins an arms race. It sounds more like you need to talk to him, tell him that you're unhappy with the campaign (assuming you actually are; if not then ignore this).

[Ardantis]

I agree with The Dark Fiddler.

[Madara]

Die via negative levels for Wright

Most undead templates work.

You're too low level to have access to create greater undead...unless

I know its low magic/ everything, but how's your access to buying magic items, such as scrolls?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Templates like Vampire and Werewolf aren't free, there's a level adjustment. It wouldn't be fair to the rest of your party, nor within the rules, to give you a level-adjusted template for free. Luckily, there are ways to gradually gain a template as you level up (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp), should you become a Vampire (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a) or Werewolf (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) or similar.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Have your characters just throw their hands up and go home because they're obviously not going to do anything important.

Then either do the same thing as your characters, or roll up a bunch of guys that are super-optimized. The Sorcerer Mailman, with Energy Substitution in case the DM decides monsters are immune to fire or cold or lightning. The GOD wizard, in case the DM decided that golems are immune to any blasty spells, period. The barbarian/warblade charger, dealing massive damage. And a cleric with lots of summons and casts DMM: Persisted Shield Other on the warblade, healing himself when down below half HP without going into the dangers of the frontline.

[Slipperychicken]

Have your characters just throw their hands up and go home because they're obviously not going to do anything important.

Then either do the same thing as your characters, or roll up a bunch of guys that are super-optimized. The Sorcerer Mailman, with Energy Substitution in case the DM decides monsters are immune to fire or cold or lightning. The GOD wizard, in case the DM decided that golems are immune to any blasty spells, period. The barbarian/warblade charger, dealing massive damage. And a cleric with lots of summons and casts DMM: Persisted Shield Other on the warblade, healing himself when down below half HP without going into the dangers of the frontline.

If your GM's a tool and you're playing a spellcaster, be sure to make yourself even less GM-dependent, if you can. A Wizard should try to take the Eidetic Spellcaster ACF, so the DM can't steal his spellbook. If he enjoys screwing you over with material components, you can take Eschew Materials, too. If the enemies try to "cut their way out" of a Web spell, remind him that a spiders' silk is more tough than the same amount of steel (this perhaps explains why the web has no listed AC or hitpoints).


Also, if you don't like how the DM is running things, get the other players (no DM) together to talk about it. If the others share your concerns, all of you should speak to him about it out-of-game, and/or devise some other solution (one of you guys taking up the DM mantle, playing a different game, leaving this DM entirely, etc). The DM might not have realized what he's doing, so it might help to have yourself and the others write down some specific things you didn't approve of, if the DM is willing to improve his style.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If your GM's a tool and you're playing a spellcaster, be sure to make yourself even less GM-dependent, if you can. A Wizard should try to take the Eidetic Spellcaster ACF, so the DM can't steal his spellbook. If he enjoys screwing you over with material components, you can take Eschew Materials, too. If the enemies try to "cut their way out" of a Web spell, remind him that a spiders' silk is more tough than the same amount of steel (this perhaps explains why the web has no listed AC or hitpoints).

If no Eidetic Spellcaster, get a Bag of Holding from your chargen WBL if you can and cast Alarm on the extradimensional space. If too low-level, get Spell Mastery and retrain later. If your DM decided to cut chargen WBL to make it "more balanced" with the low wealth gains, take Craft Wonderous Item and get enough cash to make one yourself.

[Salanmander]

If the enemies try to "cut their way out" of a Web spell, remind him that a spiders' silk is more tough than the same amount of steel (this perhaps explains why the web has no listed AC or hitpoints).


Arg, if you're going to apply physics to D&D, at least do it right! Toughness doesn't matter for whether one material can cut another, you're thinking of hardness (and that only really applies to scratching). And there isn't any material property that determines whether something made of one material can break something made of another material.

[Slipperychicken]

If no Eidetic Spellcaster, get a Bag of Holding from your chargen WBL if you can and cast Alarm on the extradimensional space. If too low-level, get Spell Mastery and retrain later. If your DM decided to cut chargen WBL to make it "more balanced" with the low wealth gains, take Craft Wonderous Item and get enough cash to make one yourself.

If you're a Warforged, you can make the Bag of Holding as an Embedded Warforged Component for no extra cost, nor any extra creation requirements, and it pretty much requires that people kill you before they can even take it off your body. Even then, Warforged Components only function when attached to a Warforged (or if you make the UMD check to "emulate race", which is pretty hard). Also, if you use the "carried objects are damaged on natural 1 on a save" rule, it can't be damaged by that. Warforged are a pretty nice race for a Wizard anyway; just take Unarmored Body, or get get an enhancement (Twilight is a +1 enhancement) on your natural plating to bring ASF down to zero.

If you can't afford a Bag of Holding, a Handy Haversack might fit the budget at 2,000gp, or if you're even more strapped for cash, casting Hoard Gullet (Sorc/Wiz 1, Dragon Magic, hour/level. Be sure to Extend or re-cast it) creates an identical effect.


Arg, if you're going to apply physics to D&D, at least do it right! Toughness doesn't matter for whether one material can cut another, you're thinking of hardness (and that only really applies to scratching). And there isn't any material property that determines whether something made of one material can break something made of another material.

Toughness does not mean what I think it means... My whole vocabulary is a lie :smalleek:

[JoshuaZ]

We are on a low money, low magic, low everything campaign...
unfortunatelly thats true only for PCs cause DM is using rule 0 to have his npcs do almost anything... so i though... ok... lets find a warewolf.. a vampire... let him bite me... then my group kills him... i got the temps????



A better idea may be to sit down with the DM and talk to him about this. If you and the other players think he's running a campaign that's too far removed from the standard rules, then that's something he should know. Give him feedback, don't try to set up a players v. DM situation.

[Kerilstrasz]

Ok.. let me make some things clear...
Its a "training" low level,low magic only PhB 1 campaign...
(training cause we have a 6man party and the 3 of em is learning now)...
so only phb races and classes...
the "thing" with the Dm is that he assumes that the average dificulty for anything we do is the one that in books listed as hard.. so for a simple climb with handholds and ropes he asks for a 20-25 DC... without us having any other penalties other than ACP... ( <-- Thats an example dont stay on that)
anyways...

smn said smthing about scrolls... we have access to PHB1 only scrolls from ingame shops (somewhat rare to find though) and if the shop is at a large city we may find some scrolls from PHB2.

we currently have our barb got bitten by a werewolf failing his save... so he prob get transformed or smthing in near future... we also have the oportunity to capture a werewolf... maybe force him to bite each of us while the rest group be at guard... anyways...

[Averis Vol]

let me see, off of the top of my head I can only think of one template that would work, but it is kind of dependant on your allowed sources. I can look up more but i need to know what your party comp is and whats on the table bookwise.

EDIT: ohh, didnt see the above post.... speaking quite bluntly your DM's a ****, this is no way to teach someone to play the game. Your also limited to some of the blandest books in the game, there are no good templates within the MMI (by no good I, of course, mean not worth the LA, if you can find a werewolf or vampire that doesn't turn you into a thrall, by all means take it.)

[SowZ]

The DM may be fairly new or else no on ever told him that some of the things he is doing are bothersome. Maybe it is how he always saw DMs work and maybe some of what he is doing is just better for different playstyles. Making builds to challenge the party is fine, (+8 Will wizard at level 2 isn't hard to do,) but just altering the rules at will is a real problem, yeah, I see that.

Don't assume the DM is a bad guy, guys. He is probably doing his best and wanting everyone to have a good time. Maybe he wants you all to earn status? Maybe tell him the things you like about his game and what elements you would like emphasized more? Don't be confrontational and make sure he knows you appreciate his efforts but you guys maybe are being confused about some of the rules flopping around and think that task DCs are so high you are discourage from wanting to do anything. (A +6 to a check is a real professional at that task, so anything much higher than 15 is something a pro will fail at more often than not. You could bring up why that is confusing.)

Ask when you will be feeling more heroic and able to influence the setting? At the first few levels you probably will be stuck to smaller adventures, though, and you won't really change the world until high levels unless you are playing E6, probably.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ok.. let me make some things clear...
Its a "training" low level,low magic only PhB 1 campaign...
(training cause we have a 6man party and the 3 of em is learning now)...
so only phb races and classes...
the "thing" with the Dm is that he assumes that the average dificulty for anything we do is the one that in books listed as hard.. so for a simple climb with handholds and ropes he asks for a 20-25 DC... without us having any other penalties other than ACP... ( <-- Thats an example dont stay on that)
anyways...

1. This DM is going to make those three new players not want to play this game ever again. Explain to them that he's not doing it right, and that the game can be a lot more fun with a decent DM running it.

2. That DC 20-25 for Climbing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/climb.htm) is completely wrong, and he's not doing a good job of teaching the new players how the game works at all. The highest the DC should have been is 15, maybe 20 if it's slippery, and you don't add anyone's armor check penalty to the DC, everyone subtracts their own ACP from their own check. Either your DM doesn't know the rules, or he ignores the rules, either way this is not a good environment for someone to learn how to play.

Find a new DM, or tell your DM he's not doing a good job and you expect to see improvement. There's no excuse for him, he's doing a piss-poor job and he's probably about to completely alienate three new players from this game forever.

[Averis Vol]

The DM may be fairly new or else no on ever told him that some of the things he is doing are bothersome. Maybe it is how he always saw DMs work and maybe some of what he is doing is just better for different playstyles. Making builds to challenge the party is fine, (+8 Will wizard at level 2 isn't hard to do,) but just altering the rules at will is a real problem, yeah, I see that.

Don't assume the DM is a bad guy, guys. He is probably doing his best and wanting everyone to have a good time. Maybe he wants you all to earn status? Maybe tell him the things you like about his game and what elements you would like emphasized more? Don't be confrontational and make sure he knows you appreciate his efforts but you guys maybe are being confused about some of the rules flopping around and think that task DCs are so high you are discourage from wanting to do anything. (A +6 to a check is a real professional at that task, so anything much higher than 15 is something a pro will fail at more often than not. You could bring up why that is confusing.)

Ask when you will be feeling more heroic and able to influence the setting? At the first few levels you probably will be stuck to smaller adventures, though, and you won't really change the world until high levels unless you are playing E6, probably.

I'm not assuming the DM is a bad guy, he could be completely awesome for all I know. But I am saying he is a bad DM, most people are when they first start, though I do not know if he's new or not. And yes, I generally don't make such brash assumptions, they've gotten me into trouble before, but this one is pretty clear cut from the side of the story we have to go by.

[SowZ]

I'm not assuming the DM is a bad guy, he could be completely awesome for all I know. But I am saying he is a bad DM, most people are when they first start, though I do not know if he's new or not. And yes, I generally don't make such brash assumptions, they've gotten me into trouble before, but this one is pretty clear cut from the side of the story we have to go by.

Sure, and he is making some classic mistakes, but I think too many DMs get discouraged from DMing and never do it again rather than get coached and helped to improve. Besides, decreasing the amount of hurt feelings should always be preferred. If a DM doesn't want to improve or listen to what his players want, that is another thing entirely.

[Curmudgeon]

Acquired templates can indeed help you out, but trying to negotiate a Werewolf bite seems like a bad idea. The Mineral Warrior template (Underdark, page 97) is pretty straightforward: just get a spellcaster to cast Mineralize Warrior, and then absent your character for a year plus a day while they serve the spellcaster. :smallbiggrin:

If you're willing to mount an expedition to the Underdark and wish to serve Lolth, you might acquire Lolth-Touched (Monster Manual IV, pages 93-94).

Both of these templates provide quite a bit of power for the +1 LA each. Talk to your DM if you're serious about heading into the Underdark to pursue either/both of them.

[Averis Vol]

Sure, and he is making some classic mistakes, but I think too many DMs get discouraged from DMing and never do it again rather than get coached and helped to improve. Besides, decreasing the amount of hurt feelings should always be preferred. If a DM doesn't want to improve or listen to what his players want, that is another thing entirely.

wait, what? I'm not advocating telling the DM he's terrible and should drop out while he's only slightly behind, I'm merely saying at this point he's a bad DM and should not be teaching newbies how to play the game. that should be left up to someone with more system mastery.