The Urge to Theurge [True Resurrection Edition] [Archive]

Arcanist

2012-06-21, 10:38 AM

Preface/Disclaimer:
As it appears that the original handbook created by Little Brother will not be updated ever again, I found it a darn shame that it would most likely fade away into obscurity only to be used by me and... well no one else... Albeit I lack LB's skills with the English language I'll try my best to continue where... He(?) left off... I'll be editing the handbook a little to make it a little easier to read I suppose (no spelling changes just lay out changes) and without further ado I give you

Before you go off and continue reading this Handbook, I'm going to note that this book uses significantly advanced high optimization, so unless you are comfortable with playing at that level of gameplay try to take this handbook with a bit of salt (or add some water, either one works really).

http://www.oblogdalu.blogger.com.br/mystic_theurge.jpg
The Urge to Theurge

Introduction:
Magic is one of my favorite mechanics in D&D. It always has been ever since I started playing this game years ago and write down with a little confused face on my character sheet "Wizard/1". Eventually I grew to start exploring other classes that use magic like Clerics and my personal favorite class the Archivist, I regret never picking up Psionics as early as I should have because it is useful and scales a little bit better into Epic level games. Psionics scales with a thing called Manifester Level (ML) just as how Arcane and Divine scale with a thing called Caster Level (CL) learning these this feature is the first step towards becoming a Mystic Theurge.

A Theurge in Dungeons and Dragons is a merging of two similar (or in some extreme cases vastly different) systems of casting. The most common case is the Mystic Theurge which is a fusion of Arcane casting and Divine casting. A flaw of this specific type of build is that you are effectively 1-3 levels behind in casting on one of your sides; with 1 being optimal and 3 being un-optimal. It is possible to not lose a single caster level (and thats not to hard), but most often it will be what we call a "ghost CL (or ML)" meaning it won't earn you additional casting (a higher spell level). A Major benefit of being a Theurge is that you aren't bound by the "single encounter" weakness some casters experience. You can fight almost all day and then still have enough magic to go half way into the next. Let me get this out there immediately Theurges are VERY magic intensive so if you can't handle having to prepare two spell list then you should probably stop reading.

Effectively as a Theurge you are able to fight, fight, fight then at the end of the day teleport back to Bob's Blowing Brothel™ and then greater teleport back (Or hell, conjure up an inn or rest stop right in front of you! You're friken magical!)

This guide or "handbook" will effectively cover the "Triumvirate of Casting" of Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 ed. This includes Arcane Spellcasting, Divine Theurgy and Psionic Manifesting. I'm sure most of you understand what I mean by these styles of casting and the differences between them, so I'll cover that a little later when I actually cover magic and what you can do with it.

Levels and Actions
To quote Hagrid from Harry Potter

You're a Wizard Harry

Yes, you are a Wizard... only you're not... You're a little bit less and a little bit more then your average Wizard. You can cast a lot more and have a lot to cast from, however you cast these spells a little bit later then the Wizard which is viewed as a weakness. Unlike the Wizard you can overcome your weaknesses to the point where they don't even exist anymore...

As a Theurge you're weaknesses include:

Gain spells 1 or more level slower (2 if you use a spontaneous caster)
Can only cast one or two spells each round
Require a level of optimization to gain full potential

These weaknesses can be completely negated if you use certain feats and try to get the most power you can out of your Theurge through tricks. For theurge's we need to use multiple build tricks to qualify for most of our shenanigans, I'm going to divide some of these tricks into three categories: Early Entry, Utility and Casting/Manifesting just to simplify it all.

Utility: These tricks are to be used both offensively and defensively. As a Theurge you have an expansive spell list (Have I stated this hard enough yet?) and as such you can't clutter your feat list with stuff that focus specifically on either. A Permanent re-deploy-able solution WILL always trumps a Short situational solution.

Casting/Manifesting: These feats increase your caster level (or Manifester level), allow you to cast/manifest 2 or more spells/powers per round and allow you to pretty much fight at peak abilities. Having access to two spell list can be a con if you can only use one spell/power per round and a lot of potential is burned when you can only use one. Make sure you focus on these feats and tricks, they are most definitely your bread and butter.

Early Entry Tricks: Popular Early Entry tricks include using Precocious apprentice(CArc) to qualify an entire spell level earlier (So you can be a Wizard/1 and a Cleric/3 to qualify earlier for the Mystic Theurge class). This goes in line with other such feats that allow for an easy (and depending on you're funds and class type) cheap spell level boost. other popular early entry feats would include Sanctum spell (+1 spell level), Improved Sigil (Krau) (+1 spell level), Earth Spell (+2 spell level), Eldritch Corruption (+2 spell level) and these are just scratching the surface! WoTC has placed dozens of tricks and methods in there books it's almost laughable. I fully approve the use of most of these exploits and tricks: Powergame on my friend!

Through out the handbook I'll reference these and point out which belongs to which so don't worry if you can't spot it immediately.

Legend
This guide is color coded for convenience. Generally speaking...
Dark Green If these feats are must haves if they're on the table. Supreme.
Deep Sky Blue Superior.
Blue Above average.
Black Average.
Purple Situational.
Red Not really you're best choice, only in this handbook to show you how bad it is.

Sourcebook Code:

CAdv = Complete Adventurer
CArc = Complete Arcane
CC = Complete Champion
CM = Complete Mage
CoR = Champions of Ruin
CoV = Champions of Valor
CP = Complete Psionic
CS = Complete Scoundrel
CW = Complete Warrior
DMG = Dungeon Master’s Guide
DM = Dragon Magic
Draco = Draconomicon
Dung = Dungeonscape
ECS = Eberron Campaign Setting
EoE = Exemplars of Evil
FC1 = Fiendish Codex I
FC2 = Fiendish Codex II
FRCS = Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Frost = Frostburn
LM = Liber Mortis
MH = Miniatures Handbook
MIC = Magic Item Compendium
MM = Monster Manual
MM2 = Monster Manual 2
MoI = Magic of Incarnum
OA = Oriental Adventures
PGtF = Player’s Guide to Faerun
PH = Planar Handbook
PHB = Player’s Handbook
PHB2 = Player’s Handbook 2
RoD = Races of Destiny
RoE = Races of Eberron
RoS = Races of Stone
RotD = Races of the Dragon
RotW = Races of the Wild
Sand = Sandstorm
Sharn = Sharn, City of Towers
SK = Serpent Kingdoms
SpC = Spell Compendium
SS = Savage Species
ToB = Tome of Battle
ToM = Tome of Magic
UA = Unearthed Arcana
Una = Unapproachable East
Web = Web Enhancement (along with link)
XPH = Expanded Psionic Handbook

"What CAN I do with my magic?"

Preface to Spellcasting:
Most Spellcasters and Manifesters only have one toolboxes to work with. You have two. With access to spells like Disintegrate, Dominate Monster, Harm, True Resurrection, Temporal Acceleration and Assimilate you are most definitely a top contender at you're table. Some of these require saves (actually all of the listed ones do... except for Temporal Acceleration). There are some spell combos that only YOU can use (due to your large list) that completely take away the opponents options for a saving throw, but that will be in another section all together.

Most player's believe in 7 different playstyles: Battlefield Control, Skill Monkey, Blasting, Healing, Buffing, Debuffing and Minion-mancy. I personally don't believe that a Theurge should be blasting or doing skill monkey work. In essence you can do all of these things without much effort OR have someone else do these things for you... Generally damage dealing in combat is viewed as... a little weak since an enemy with 1hp can deal effectively the same as an enemy with full HP, so blasting spells aren't good for that exact reason. If you can cast a spell or manifest a power that makes the enemy get swallowed up by the earth or just plain disintegrated then you are better off casting that. Never aim for half-health, always aim for an absolute kill. So I'll just outright remove Blasting and Skill Monkey. Mid combat healing is generally viewed as sub-optimal since it is better to take 0 damage then take 1 damage for obvious reasons, it is also unfortunate that a level 1 orc warrior can deal enough damage to make a 5th level Cleric's Cure Serious Wounds irrelevant. Besides this role can be entirely replaced with a wand of lesser vigor, or an eternal wand of cure light wounds or something like that, however some people would disagree on that matter so I'll let you (the reader) decide if mid-combat healing is optimal or not: In this writers opinion it is. I will acknowledge that having it as a back up option is INCREDIBLY useful, so having the ability to spontaneously cast Cure spells is amazingly useful if you fall asleep at the wheel. For now let's discuss these 4 remaining styles.

Battlefield Control- This style is all about changing factors in the conflict. Flanking, Crowd Control and if you want to immediately end the conflict: Destroy the environment. Most monsters can't survive underwater and the few that can can't survive if you close them off from that environment. Battlefield control is supposed to use game mechanics like suffication, starvation and drowning to kill the enemy as neatly as possible. I'll explore this more in depth later in Spell Combos.

Buffing- Everyone should know what buffing is. Effectively you are making the Fighter into a Colossal sized, nigh invulnerable war machine and I'm sure you know that 5 war machines is better then 1 war machine. For buffing spells I recommend looking into the Mass spells, Polymorph spell. Seriously, a +4 Str, Dex & Con, Colossal sized Fighter using a Wall of Iron as a shield is pretty friken awesome sight.

Debuffing- See that Fighter over there? Imagine him without all his muscles, his sword, his armor, him hunched over, falling over himself, blind, deaf, stunned, poisoned, dazed and about to lose his lunch... Did it? He's not so scary after all that now is he? That is debuffing at it's most extreme. Leaving your opponent with 1 level, 1 str, dex, con and blinded just for good measure.

Minion-mancy- Summon Monster, Summon Nature's Ally, Planar Ally, Planar Binding, Gate just to name a few spells that help in this style. Effectively Minion-mancy is you're method of gaining an army and Buffing is making that army a hundred times better. If you've decided to go with an Arcane/Psionic style I seriously recommend picking up the Egotist power Fusion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fusion.htm). It allows you to more or less turn into a gestalt character. Now imagine doing this with a creature like a Solar. This grants you temporary access to 20th level Cleric spells, which grants you access to a 3rd spell list.

Arcanist

2012-06-21, 10:39 AM

http://webpages.charter.net/dmott/motivatormystic.jpg
Races, Stats, Classes and Spell Combinations

Ability Scores:
Below are some general things in regards to both physical and mental stats, however please keep in mind when choosing your build that although it is generally preferred to be SAD (Single Ability Dependent) it is alright to be DAD (Dual Ability Dependent) however once you get to MAD (Multiple Ability Dependent [3+]) you need to sit down and count to 10.

Physical stats
Strength: The funny thing about being a Mystic Theruge is that your most likely a Wizard, you follow the same rules as a Wizard... Dump Str you have magic to hold your stuff, hell if you ever feel like getting into a fist fight use Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm). As long as you can carry 20lbs you're fine.
Dexterity: Remember that thing I said about effectively being a Wizard? Yeah Dexterity is a good stat. Helps with your AC, Ranged touch attacks, reflex saves and most importantly: Your Initiative. I recommend at least putting a 14 or a 16 if you can REALLY spare it, if you can't then just putting an 12 in this is fine.
Constitution: Constitution is an amazing stat, your a Theurge so chances are you are going to be multiclass between a bunch of d4's to d6's. It's helps determine your Fortitude saves, your HP, and your Concentration skill checks. As with Dexterity, anything above a 12 is good, but you usually want it to be higher for more HP as you level up. Generally, you want a beneficial modifier on this stat.

Mental stats
To summarize, pick the two logical stats and ignore the last one. Sometimes you can get by with 3 then that is just peachy. So I'll just list the most awesome ways to do this...

SAD: Put your highest ability score in your casting stat. (18 prefered)
DAD: Put your 2 highest ability scores in your casting stats. (16-17 in secondary stat)
MAD: Put your 3 highest ability scores in your casting stats. (Generally avoided)

A lot of game mechanics are based on Intelligence (Int) so most people would agree that it is best to have a high intelligence score. Intelligence dictates your skill points and you're knowledge's. If you are a Wizard then it dictates how high of a spell level you can have and can dictate how high the DC for your spells are. I'm not saying that you should ignore stats like Charisma or Wisdom. Charisma is useful because it increases you're checks for skills like Use Magic Device and Use Psionic Device and Wisdom is useful if you are using Divine Theurgy, it helps with you're perception skills (Listen & Spot) which are always useful.

The Classes:

Arcane Casters

Base Classes
Wizard: Higher level spells, Variation, access to highly advertised "Schrodinger's Wizard", can easily gain enough spell slots per day to be able to out spell even a Sorcerer with ACF, more or less this is what your looking for so pretty much. Yes, Yes a thousand times yes! [PHB]

Sorcerer: Slow spell Progression, limit to spells known effectively a Wizard with a worse casting stat, less spells, and completely void of the ultimate purpose of Arcane Magic (IMO): Variation. The only reason this is purple is because it is... decent if you want to try your hand at a Sorcdin gish combo type thing... I've never seen a good build for it though that gets you double nines without using the debatable legal Legacy Champion. [PHB]

Bard: Qualifies you for Sublime Chord and Fochlucan Lyrist, but as it is? No... This writer disagrees with Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) [PHB]

Wu-jen: Some would view these as effectively oriental Wizards (because that is what they are) but honestly? compared to Wizard they just don't keep up, not because the class is bad but because of its spell list. Its just not what we're looking for in a Theurge but that doesn't mean you should completely dismiss it, in fact there is a very interesting handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246975) currently in creation here on the playground and hopefully after the handbook is complete I can change its ranking... [CArc]

Warmage/Dread Necromancer: These class can be paired together due to them possessing the same flaw that makes them undesirable for Theurging, lack of variability. Your Arcane Side (If you choose so) should effectively be a powerful toolbox that can assist you in solving your adventuring problems at any time, these two classes spell list are just to limited to work with and there Charisma dependency makes them even less desirable...[CArc/HoH respectively]

Beguiler: This class unlike Warmage/Dread Necromancer is Int dependent meaning that if paired with the Wizard for an Ultimate Magus build it would be much more effective. This combination is especially effective if you are a Specialist Wizard as it allows you to ban Illusion and most likely Evocations without worrying about losing out on the good spells... I said THE GOOD SPELLS (You bet I'm talking to you Evocations) [PHB2]

Duskblade: I will be the first to admit that I kind of hate this class... I personally view it as unworthy of being on this list however it IS an Arcane base class so it kind of HAS to be here... [PHB2]

Fast progression classes
Nar Demonbinder:Not as good progression as the SC, but really, what did you expect for something that is free (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030502a&page=2). The spell list is awesome. Works for a Cha-SAD build. [Warning: Forgotten Realms specific]

Sublime Chord: Honestly, fast progression class for the most part ALL deserve to be DeepSkyBlue but this one? Friken amazing. The requirements are a little thematically and pushy which explains why its not DarkGreen but WOW is it trying to... works very well with Cha-SAD classes like Nar Demonbinder however it is generally more accessible then Nar Demonbinder due to not being setting specific. [CArc]

Beholder Mage: Yes, Yes, Yes, literally there are just so many cheesy ways to get into this prestige class its not even funny. However this is generally not allowed at well [U]ANY tables, however if your DM is allowing you (highly unlikely) then take it and get access to 9th level spells at 14 if used in combination with another class later mentioned... [LoM]

Divine Casters

Base Classes
Cleric: Domain access, effectively as good as a Wizard without the Spellbook. Most notable tricks are DMM Persistomancy. VERY good choice for a Divine side. The Cleric is infamous for its access to phenomenal tricks that allow it to gain access to high spell levels as easily as the Ardent. Pretty awesome choice if I say so myself... [PHB]
Evangelist Cleric: Spontaneous cleric with spells known mostly based on whatever deity you worship. Stupidly powerful using Pantheon rules, given that you gain a crap-ton-and-a-half domains. Also, SAD. And makes the Favored Soul join the Sorcerer crying in a corner. [DM#311]

Druid: Great class, a Tier 1 caster. Spell list is a little better then I previously thought. But honestly? The 2 largest gems on this class is access to Arcane Hierophant and Wild Shaping. With Arcane Hierophant you are capable attaining 9s with great easy. [PHB]

Favored Soul: The Sorcerer for Divine casters, except somehow worse... Honestly I'm surprised at WoTC, how did you screw this up? [CD]

Spirit Shaman: Acceptable and has its uses. Access to the Druid list which is always good. It effectively functions like a Sorcerer in that it is able to spontaneously cast spells... wait... Do I see a little gem? OH! It gets Wizard progression and can change it's spells known per day? Whats this!? It can also prepare those spells known with metamagic so that it doesn't have to wait a friken full round just to cast a spell? This is actually better then the Sorcerer... yet... is somehow worse... It's class features are crap, but honestly? You're going in as lead and turning into gold so why care? Definitely a solid black choice, but if your DM is allowing you to take something better, I will personally drive to your house and kick your dog.[CD]

Shugenja: Effectively the oriental version of favored soul, not any better unfortunately... [CD]

Archivist: MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh this Class, where do I begin? Well first of all this class functions effectively on its own so Theurging can only make it better, you are pretty much a Wizard with Divine spells. In all honesty this class would be superior to the Cleric if not for DMM... What really makes this class shine is because its free (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) [HoH]

Fast progression classes
Ur-Priest: Place this class on its alter that it rightfully deserves to sit upon. You absolutely cannot go wrong. Only downside is you can't get Dweomerkeeper, or steal SLAs, but those are unneeded if you're doing it right. [CD]

Divine Crusader: Harsh prerequisites but ultimately the same as Ur-Priest, only it still allows you to access Dweomerkeeper... OH and it you can only cast Domain Spells... [CD]

Apostle of Peace: This is IMO the single worst Fast progression class in all of 3.5, not because of its class features, but because of its prerequisites... This classes only saving grace is that you can potentially build it so that It doesn't need anything but 8 hours of sleep and its ready to blow up on you. [BoED]

Psionic Manifesters

Base Classes:

Regular Cerebremancers are just fine as well. Even if the Psion side doesn't hit 9ths, you still get access to great buffs like Synchronicity, Schism and Hustle that can assist the wizard side, plus Int synergy. And of course, you can very quickly pump your Psion side up via Mental Pinnacle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm) if needed. You can even fire off Mental Pinnacle, and use all your free power points to bake a ton of Soul Crystals for you and your party.

Wiz 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/Arcane PrC +4 is perfectly viable, and has much more synergy than say Wiz 3/Cleric 3/MT 10. (Or you can use Erudite - even transferring some of your wizard spells to your psionic side to eliminate the need for material components.)

Wiz 1 (Precocious Apprentice)/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/Arcane PrC +6 works great too, and keeps you from being 3 levels behind on both sides.

Psion: The funny thing I learned about Psionics is that you don't NEED 9's for them (I mean its damn impressive to have) but its not a requirement for your Psionic/X. Anyway, Telepath is a seriously great addition to any theurge build do to powers like Schism which can be used to just destroy the Action economy, this overcomes the most infamous weakness of the Mystic Theurge. The rare ability to get off more then 2 spells/powers in a single round.[XPH]

Wilder: Think sorcerer but for Psionics... Honestly if you want to be a Charisma based caster, I seriously recommend going with Wilder[XPH]

Erudite: Effectively the Wizard-Psion, with almost unlimited access to all Psionic powers you'd think that the Erudite would be DarkGreen? Well the Erudite is good, just not better then the Psion due to limited access to Disciplines. You see, the Erudite can gain access to all general Psionic powers, however it can unfortunately only gain access to 8th level Discipline powers. With an Alternate Class Feature you can have an Erudite be a "Theurge-In-A-Can".[Cpsi]

StP Erudite: If you truly want to be an Erudite consider the StP Erudite as it allows you to cast Wizard/Sorcerer Spells as an Erudite. For more information on this Alternate Class feature please refer to this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) mind's eye article.

Psychic Warrior: Erm... See Duskblade and you'll know why this is Purple, The Psychic Warrior is shockingly enough, superior to the Duskblade however its lack of variability makes it very weak for a Theurge.[XPH]

Fast Progression Classes

Ardent: While not exactly a fast progression class the class can effectively be a fast progression class using certain optimizing tricks. This is due to how the Ardent learns powers, by taking Practiced Manifester you can effectively learn higher level powers at lower levels. However the reason this isn't exactly DarkGreen is because of the small list of powers the Ardent has available and the fact you can only take Practiced Manifester once for Ardent.[Cpsi]

Spell Combos:

To be announced

Races:
This is Dungeons and Dragons my friend, there hundreds of racial choices however which ones are the best to gain the title of "Theurge"? Well after many years we've taken the time to point out some of the finer racial choices so you don't have to wrack your mind on this one.

LA +0
Illumian: You have the easiest time entering early. Best race, hands down. I prefer Naenhoon, for ease of early entry, but the Krau-based ones have some nice bonuses, too.

Kobolds: Ah, Kobolds, I love them and all the cheese that accompanies them. Probably won't fly, but if your DM is allowing you to play as a Venerable Dragonwrought White Dragonspawn Desert Kobold then take it.

Human: It’s a Human... You know? WoTC favorite race... Bonus feats are amazing in Theurge builds but there some better options.

Elf: Normally, I hate elves, but Gray Elves get a bonus to intelligence and a penalty to mostly dump stats, AND you get access to the Elven Generalist. Good, really good.

Lesser Aasimar: Bonus to two of your most important stats? Yes, please!

Dragonborn: These guys are an odd lot. They’re okay on a lot, but far from ideal. Stick this on an elf, though, and these guys are great.

Magic-blooded: A penalty to wisdom. Only think about if you’re going something like Archivist/Sublime Chord. Otherwise, forget it exists.

Unseelie Fey: See above. Also, +2 Dex, -2 Con hurts, unless...

Arctic: +2 Con, -2 Dex, resistance to cold, couple other goodies. 95% of the time, Con is vastly more important than Dex. Also, makes Grey Elves actually really good. +2 Int, -2 Str is a GREAT trade. Dragon material, so might not be an option.

LA +1 templates are reasonable if buy back is in place. I'd recommend you never take anything bigger then a +1 LA since at level 3 you would be going into your Theurge Class :smallsmile:

LA +1
White Dragonspawn: This template is only really good when applied to a Kobold trying to achieve effective godhood. With a +7 Natural Armor, a Fly speed, a Natural weapon, a Breath Weapon, a free Sorcerer caster level its no wonder this template is banned at most tables... all of this power easily obtained at a simple, cheap and easily bought back level adjustment of 1... You also gain a bonus to your Physical ability scores (+2 Dex and Con)... the largest flaw I've seen is the Death Throes ability tied to it making it a little hard to be resurrected if the unlikely is to occur :smalltongue:

Primordial Half-Giant: LA 1 for -2 Strength, -2 dexterity, +4 intelligence, and +4 charisma? At will invisibility? Helloooo, nurse! If LA buy-off is allowed, you want this. Otherwise, the LA hurts enough that it is merely average. Any Wizard(Or Sublime Chord. Or sorcerer, I guess if you like that)/Cha-based Divine MUST use this, especially if you use Magic-Blooded, too.

Mulhorandi Divine Minion: This template is amazing. It grants you fear immunity and wild shaping as an 11th level Druid, the down side is that you become an Outsider and on the even worse side you are Extraplanar, meaning a dismissal can ruin your entire week... But honestly, the ability to Wild Shape without being a druid is just too priceless. If you are going to take this template, I personally recommend becoming a Divine Minion of Thoth since he grants you, in my opinion the best shapes. If you wish to learn more about the template, check it out online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a). The only reason I can see personally for taking this would be for getting Aberrant Wildshape and Frozen Wildshape to expand your crappy and limited list. If you are taking this for a full casting Arcane Heirophant build this becomes DarkGreen easily.

Most other races are eh at best. Avoid LA like the plague in most cases. You lose caster levels as is, you can't afford more.

Arcanist

2012-06-21, 10:40 AM

http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt310/Kobold-Bard/tsukiko3.png
The Bare Bones of your Build

Yes, like one of my favorite characters (Tsukiko) if you've read this far into the handbook you've already written Wizard3/Cleric3 onto your character sheet but I recommend you get your eraser handy, because your gonna regret it if you think the peak of Theurgy is simply attained at level 16

Alternate Class features:
Yep, I'm pretty sure it shocked you to figure out that multiclassing classes allowed you more access to more alternate class features... To save you the horrid grace of having to dumpster dive for all the good Alternate Class features we decided to save you some time and make you a kick ass list to go with it... Hell we actually listed a pair of Alternate Class features earlier in the Handbook :smallamused:

There are A LOT of Alternate Class Features and we only want the best
[Warning: Best is variable due to writer changing his opinion on certain ACF]

Wizard:
Domain Specialist: If your DM is allowing you to take this do it. If you are not taking this ACF you better have a damn good reason...

Focused Specialist: Most Wizards wouldn't take this ACF unless they are specializing in Divination. As a Theurge you are allowed... NEIGH! ENTITLED! To ban Schools of magic, I recommend banning Enchantments, Necromancy and even Abjuration is acceptable to ban. You are most likely going to specialize in Conjuration since this works in combination with another Alternate Class feature.

Spontaneous Divination: You are the effectively God (if built properly). God is to be all knowing, Spontaneous Divination helps you to be all knowing. Take. This. NOW!. However it is to know that most Theurgic builds don't take Wizard to 5th but thats up to you if you think its worth it.

Elven Generalist: This is the only reason to be an elf. If you are one, take this.

Immediate Magic: This one is hard to color, because of variation. to summarize, if your playing a Conjurer this is immediately DarkGreen pretty much anything else makes this black.

Cleric:

Cloistered Cleric: Lore, a Free Domain, More skill points, more Spells, and friken Lore! Your God would be disappointed if you didn't take this Alternate Class Feature and I would be disappointed in you as well if you didn't.

Divine Restoration: Trades your Domain power for the ability to spontaneously cast Restoration spells... I love this Alternate Class feature... If you've taken Cloistered Cleric and your opposite Theurge class is giving you all knowledges then it is completely reasonable to sacrifice the Knowledge Domain granted power. (however that loss in caster level is quite a painful sacrifice...)

Spontaneous Domain: Ah, variability... You need more of this my friend and this helps you get it. You're effectively trading your ability to spontaneously cure/inflict for the ability to spontaneously cast one of your domain spells. Lets face it, You are God. This helps you be God.

Divine Magician: This is pretty much the "make your own domain" Instead of gaining access to a Domain power you are allowed to add 1 Enchantment, Necromancy and Abjuration spell at each level to your spell list, granted this is from the Wizard/Sorcerer Spell list but we all have to make sacrifices...

Feats:

Early Qualification feats [To be expanded]
Precocious apprentice: PHENOMENAL early entry trick for Wizards however it loses its worth after a while, but this doesn't overall effect it that negatively. This however is negated as an early entry trick due to a ruling by WoTC however debatably when used with Versatile Spellcaster this becomes a powerful early entry despite how terrible Sorcerers are for Theurgist. [CArc]

Earth Spell: Early entry shenanigans allowing you to treat your 1st level spells as 2nd level spells for class requirements. This feat in combination with certain other feat can allow you to access 9th level spells early. I'm curious if I can put this feat in platinum colored with people still able to read it... [RoS]

Heighten Spell: You know that super combo I mentioned earlier? Yeah this is a piece of it... Both Earth Spell and Heighten Spell become DarkGreen when used to create the Super Combo. [PHB]

Sanctum Spell: Ah, sweet, sweet early entry... This makes builds for Favored Soul/Sorcerers possible by treating your spell as 1 level higher then normal... Yeah so your 1st level spells are effectively treated as 2nd level spells thus qualifying you for prestige class requiring 2nd level spells.

Southern Magician: Its an early entry trick just like Precocious Apprentice, however it somehow still manages to maintain its uses. Once per day per 2 caster levels you can cast one Arcane Spell as a Divine spell and vice versa, very good if your DM won't allow you to use Alternate Spell Source. [RoF]

Shape Soulmeld(Impulse Boots): And Open Lesser Chakra(Feet) give you evasion to qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist. If you are going that way, you had better take these. If not, forget them, take two levels of Divine Oracle if you need to. [MoI]

(Planar) Touchstone: I recommend the Catalogs of Enlightenment, Allows you access to a Cleric Domain, this can potentially help you achieve a multitude of prerequisites for prestige classes. This list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9236967&postcount=3) might also help you in finding just the right prerequisites, but most of the time you are going to go with the Catalogs of Enlightenment. [PLH]

Wizard feats [To be expanded]
Spell Mastery: This feat is ALRIGHT by itself but the real reason you're taking this is so you can access Uncanny Forethought. [PHB]

Uncanny Forethought: You are literally Schrodinger's Wizard now... Only instead of JUST being a Wizard you are also a Cleric/Psion/Incarnum user/Invoker/Binder/Truenamer/etc. [EoE]

Cleric feats [To be expanded]
Extend Spell: Very useful but it truly becomes more relevant when you meet its bigger brother... [PHB]

Persistent Spell: Meet Extend Spell's older brother, With this single feat alone you can legitimately make your entire party obsolete, but I know you wouldn't do that. :smallamused: [CArc]

Divine Metamagic: I will just quote the Cleric handbook on this feat. [CD]

This feat is amazing. A cleric without Divine Metamagic is like a druid without Natural Spell. It might as well be a part of the class features. Divine Metamagic, when chosen, can apply to any metamagic spell you have, which makes it the most versatile feat I know. Not to mention its power. You do have to know the metamagic feat in question, but that's minor compared to what you can do with it. The safest option is to talk to your DM and determine what you can and cannot do with it and what limits, if any, your DM will place on methods to obtain extra turn attempts to fuel this feat. Take this at least once, possibly more than once, depending on the build.
...Yeah... It is THAT good... You're part Cleric. Cleric feats are amazing...

Reach Spell: Touch range spells gain a 30ft range to them for 2 spell levels... Eh.... Oh! You're a Cleric? Take it and DMM it. Makes your spell list a bit more flexible. Down right awesome if used in combination with... [CD]

Chain Spell: Chain spell! Ah... How entertaining it is cast a spell that bounces off multiple people? Much more powerful if you mix it with Reach Spell since now it can potentially convert your entire spell list into a long ranged, bouncing magical ball of death for just a +5 spell level (AHAHAHAHA! DMM MAKES IT NOTHING!). [CArc]

Druid Feats [To be expanded]

Natural Spell: Yep! It's another feat that is so good, so easy to implement that it should have just been a class feature... The ability to be a bear that cast spells is just to hard to pass up, so I recommend that you don't. If you are dead set on being a Wild Shaping Super Theurge, I offer you this feat so that your dreams might (JUST MIGHT) come true. [Core]

Dragon Wildshape: Adds a whole bunch of Dragons to your list of Wild shaping options. Definitely Dark Green if you are a Divine Minion. Draco

Frozen Wildshape: Take it. Become the 12 headed Cryohydra. Unleash raw death upon all who oppose you! Definitely Dark Green if you are a Divine Minion... Which I'm not entirely sure works for the Divine Minion since you can't really get Huge Wild Shape... Eh... I'd be willing to argue that since Divine Minion lets you Wild Shape as an 11th level Druid that levels in Arcane Heirophant would allow you to get Huge sized Wild Shapes... Tough call... [Frost]

Assume Supernatural Ability: Utterly broken if used as a Druid, but just as useful if you are a Divine Minion wishing to expand his/her list of options. [SS]

Universal Feats [Awesome for any Spellcaster]

Invisible Spell: This spell, as the name intends, makes the spells effects that you cast invisible... Any Spell... Hmm... Summons? Yep! Illusions? Yep! Invisible? Yep! The best thing is that this is a +0 Spell level increase meaning you can add it to all your spells. Most DM's will outright ban the extreme shenanigans, but still, a fun spell :smallsmile:

Craft Contingent Spell: If your DM lets you take this feat, you are set for life when it comes to combat. My favorite contingent trigger is "When a weapon is drawn" or "When is bloodied". Since you have "Raise Dead" (or should) It would totally be reasonable for you to Contingency that... Or Revivify... which ever [CArc]

Extraordinary Spell Aim: AHAHAHAHAHA! It's either this, Sculpt Spell, or taking levels in Archmage if you want to totally screw an enemy caster with an Anti-Magic field. Makes for a deadly combination if used with Forcecage, but to be fair Forcecage combined with a lot of stuff is just overpowered... Just like this feat! [CA]

Sculpt Spell: Change any area spell into another area (most likely Spread) for a +1 spell level. Prepare to dodge books if you use this for Anti-Magic Field. [Carc]

Quicken Spell: The original economy annihilator. Cast a spell as a swift action for only a +4 Spell level. [Core]

Dragonwrought: For anything else but a Kobold, this is a red for obvious reasons (they can't take it), but a +3 bonus to all 3 of your mental stats for a single feat? Yes! Personally, I am a great fan of using Sorcerer (despite how terrible it is for being a Theurge with it), but with this? It's not to bad if you template it to bajesus and back (Dragonspawn and Divine Minion if you really wanna go there). This build will be discussed later of course... But for now? Just think of all the wondrous things you can do with Dragonwrought... It's lovely... Isn't it? [RoTD]

Sudden Silent/Stilled Spell: This feat is incredibly useful, but highly untrustworthy... On one hand, you have a 1 shot "Get out of Grapple free card", on the other hand, you should have Freedom of Movement or have Psionics making this fairly moot... Either way? This feat still remains useful even if you have those two options in your backpocket. [CArc]

Psiotheurgy

In Dragon Magazine issue #349, they had a special article on Arcane-Psionic Theurgy which greatly complimented the power of both of these styles of casting... err... Manifesting... Whatever... Without further ado~ I introduce you to the gems of Psiotheurgy!

Psiotheurgist: Effectively a psionic version of Theurgic Specialist and admittedly its superior. With a Prerequisites of 1 Spell Focus, 1st Manifest/Spell this is definitely a must for your classic Cerebremancer and if Dragon Magazine is on the table. [DM#349]

Cannibolize Spell: A really interesting option that allows you to transfer a Spells Energy into Psionic Energy. By sacrificing a spell, you can gain that spells level x 1.5 in Power points rounded down. An interesting build with StP Erudite occurs here in that you can tear down your spells to power your powers that can be converted into spells as well creating an interesting and unique option here. Unfortunately the trade back isn't entirely equivalent here making this a lame option in the long run. Also the fact that you can't break down the spell unless you can manifest a power of the same level (ex. If you can cast 5th level spells and manifest 4th level powers you can only break down a 4th level and lower spell). [DM #349]

Psiomancer: Solid Black option. Allows you to spend power points for the day to prepare extra spells for the day, however the conversion is a little ridiculous (Spell level x 2 +1? Really?), but personally, I'd just use the extra spell slot as a blank spell slot for the use of Uncanny Forethought or any other form of Spontaneous spellcasting. The downside is that you can only have a single extra spell slot and it has the same weakness as Cannibalize Spell (ex. You cannot sacrifice 9 PP for a 4th level spell if you can only manifest 3rd level powers).

Mystic Focus: This is, in my opinion, the most situational feat that you could ever select from this article. As a swift action you can regain your Psionic Focus by sacrificing a 1st level spell without having to make a concentration check. Long story short, totally not worth it in the end since you can't Quicken anything to this, thus limiting your action economy abuse. If you seriously want to actually go about this option, I suppose you can for Metapsionic usage, but in my experience? Totally not worth it.

Hypnotic Focus: I laughed so hard at this feat... "Autohypnosis is always a feat for you" (which it should be if you are a self-respecting Psionicist) and you gain a +2 bonus to Autohypnosis... Ugh... Bartender! Get me a double order of Tea and Terran Brandy! Minus the Tea!

Surge of Theurgy:

In Dragon Magazine Issue #325 there was a special article called "Surge of Theurgy" which featured dozens of feats that more or less pimped out Mystic Theurges. Most of these abilities were kind of crappy... however there were a few gems that stood out and shined bright enough to blind us... however as these options are Dragon Magazine chances are more DMs will knee jerk ban it.

[i]Alternative Spell Source: This feat is what separates the Theurgist from the Wizards... If Dragon Magazine is on the table, take this feat. This metamagic allows you to prepare Arcane Spells as Divine spells and vice-versa. It also allows for early entry in almost every Arcane-Divine Theurge Prc class. This feat lowers the caster level of the altered spell by by 1 caster level and to add to that this feat effectively loses a LOT of power when Divine Metamagic is off the table effectively turning this feat into a Blue. [DM#325]

Theurgic Specialist: Pretty much when you're casting a spell from your specialist school (Meaning you are most-likely cheesing it up as a Focused Specialist/Divine Magician), You combine all of your spellcasting class's caster levels. Pretty awesome on certain builds, down right DarkGreen on an Ur-Wizard potentially giving the caster an infinite caster level (for Evocation specialist) allowing you to just Blasphemy everything that tries to threaten you. [DM#325]

Druidic Theurgy: This is more or less a duplicate of Theurgic Specialist however it only applies to spells that you have in common on the Druid Spell list, it adds both caster levels together for these spells. Fairly awesome if you build your Theurge properly.

Easy Metamagic: This feat as been mentioned time and time again and why shouldn't it be? I mean lets take a small look at it.

Choose any metamagic feat you already have. When preparing or casting spells modified by that Metamagic, lower the spell slot cost by one. You can never reduce the spell slot cost lower then one for the actual spell level.

Persistent Spell and Quicken spell are 2 metamagics that you would want to apply this to. This really gets cheesy when Alternate Spell Source is in play, allowing you access to copious amounts of Metamagic reduction. If only you could make a spell count as both an Arcane and a Divine spell... :smallamused:

Psi-Spell Feats:

Dragon Magazine issue #313 introduces a series of feats called Psi-Spell feats. These feats require both Arcane casting and Psionic manifesting and effect them in particular ways. Despite these feats being originally designed for the Mind Mage prestige class presented in the same issue, it is recommended that you highly consider these feats as they are a welcome addition to any Psionic Theurgist arsonal. To apply a Psi-Spell you must expend 3 PP x Spell level and to apply it to a power you must expend 1 spell per level of the power (example acid arrow would cost 3 pp while a acid missile would cost a 2nd level spell), this applies to all powers unless listed otherwise.

Agitated Causticity: When casting/Manifesting a Spell/Power with the Acid descriptor you to deliver a cumulative -1 AC penalty for every 5 points of acid damage delivered to the target. This also adds a fortitude to the spell at a DC equal to the spells original DC. Pre: Any 2 spells with the acid descriptor, Matter Agitation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/matterAgitation.htm).

Astral Fire: The target is allowed no save for this effect. This Psi-Spell can be applied to any spell/power with the Fire descriptor. For your casting modifier rounds the target recieves 5 points of fire damage each round. Pre: Any 2 spells with the Fire descriptor, Any 2 powers with the Fire descriptor.

Bioelectrical Surge: This can only be applied to a spell/power with the electric descriptor. Your opponent takes -2 dexterity damage for every 10 points of electricity damage. The target is allowed a save for each 10 points of damage. Any 2 spells with the electricity descriptor, Control body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlBody.htm)

Solid Freeze: Applied to a Spell/Power with the cold descriptor. A Fortitude save is offered to the target where upon failure the target is completely immobilized where as on a success the target moves at half speed regardless this last for 1d4 rounds. A full round strength check to break free is available at the DC for the Spell/Power. During this each subject incased is reduced by a hardness of 5. 4 * Spell level in PP for spells, 2 * Power level in Spell level for Powers. Pre: Any 2 spells with the Cold descriptor, Control Flame (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/controlFlames.htm)

Elemental Flare: When you take this feat you must select one elemental descriptor and increase the Dice size (Example d4>d6>d8>d10>d12>d20). This Psi-Spell can only be applied to that one descriptor. 4 * Spell level in PP for spells, 2 * Power level in Spell level for Powers. Pre: Agitated Causticity, Astral Fire, Bioelectrical Surge, or Solid Freeze.

Dual-Plane Summons: When casting a Summon Monster spell you may manifest Astral Construct during the casting at ½ pp to add Menu abilities to the summoned monster. Pre: Ability to cast Summon Monster 1-9, Ability to manifest Astral Construct.

Harden Energy: When casting/manifesting a spell/power with an energy descriptor you may convert up to ½ of total dice into Force damage. This portion of damage overcomes all energy resistance but SR is still applicable if the base spell/power allows SR. Pre: Any force power, any spell with an energy descriptor.

Bull Blast: When casting/manifesting a spell/power adjusted by Harden Energy you may also perform a bullrush to all creatures within the spells range. These spells push the creature out of its range. The Bull Rush has a bonus equal to the DC of the Spell/Power +1 per damage die. Pre: Harden Energy.

Concussive Blast: For every 3 PP or 1 Spell level sacrificed Concussive Blast ands 1 more die of force damage to a maximum of ½ the maximum base (for example you can spend a maximum of 15 PP to increase a Fireballs damage by 5 dice), This can only be applied to a Spell/Power with an energy descriptor. Pre: Harden Energy.

Dual-Progression Prestige Classes:

Mystic Theurge (DMG): Arcane/Divine
Ultimate Magus(CM): Prepared Arcane/Spont Arcane
Cerebremancer(XPH): Psionic/Arcane
Mind Mage (DM #313 (http://www.angelfire.com/pro/demon_1/prc_mind_mage.htm)): Psionic/Arcane
Eldritch Theurge(CM): Invoke/Arcane
Green Whisper (DM#311): Bard/Druid
Psychic Theurge (Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b)): Divine/Manifester
Noctumancer(ToM): Shadowcaster/Arcane
Yathrinshee(PGtF): Arcane/Divine.
Arcane Hierophant (RoTW): Wild Shaping/Arcane/Divine
Eldritch Disciple (CM): Invoke/Divine
True Necromancer (LM): Arcane/Divine.
Soulcaster (MoI): Meldshaping/Arcane
Soul Manifester (Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a)) Meldshaping/Psionics,
Noctumancer (ToM): Mysteries/Arcane
Anima Mage/Priest/Manifester (ToM) Binding/Arcane, Binding/Divine or Binding/Manifesting
Tenebrous Apostate (ToM): Binding/Divine
Jade Phoenix Mage (ToB): Arcane/Initiating
Ruby Knight Windicator (ToB): Divine/Initiating

Theurge Traps:
These classes look like theurges, requiring multiple casting sources, but don't advance both OR just advance them rather poorly. It is capable to make these traps into very good builds that are capable of getting 9's however it is very hard to accomplish...

Geomancer: Requires both Arcane and Divine, but only advances one. If you are playing a Sha'ir then this becomes black
True Necromancer: 12/14 Theruge. Very good if you never want 9's. Terrible. Circumstantially it is capable to make this Blue but that requires some series early entry shenanigans.
Yathrinshee: 6/10 Theurge. Yeah lets skip this one. This one is NEVER good... I mean If i see a build that is capable of having this class and still get 9's then I'll change my mind but... doesn't seem to likely...

Special Mention:
Dweomerkeeper: Like the Geomancer it requires both Arcane and Divine Casting, but only advances one. The only difference is that its class features allow it to apply spells to a thing called a mantle causing them to effectively function as Supernatural abilities. Cannot go wrong with this.

Arcanist

2012-06-21, 10:41 AM

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/arcana/217_head.jpg
Theurgist's Laboratory

Builds/Resources:
Gaze studiously upon your brethren, even though you are clearly superior you still have much to learn from them...

This handbook is more or less a bare bones approach to Theurges so Its not going to include spells and other such shenanigans and if you failed to learn anything from this handbook I encourage approaching the guides presented below...

Legend:
Min/Max: M
GiTP: G
BG: BG

Arcane Handbooks

Wizards:
A guide to Wizards: Playing a GOD (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394) BG
Being Batman: the Logic Ninja's Guide to Wizards (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104002) G
How you make your wizard like a spontaneous caster. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7150) BG
Making the Magic Happen: A Practical Wizard's guide. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=12896) BG
Spontaneous Wizard Guide (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=474) M

Divine Handbooks

Clerics:

AfterCrescent's 3.5 Cleric Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1238) M
The Quickstart Cleric Archer (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10961) BG
Divine Magician Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1329)M
The Divine Magician Spell choices (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4622)BG

Builds:

True Necromancer Theurge:
Wizard/1 Cleric/3 MT/10 TN/6

Arcane:16 (8th level spells)
Divine: 17 (9th level spells)

Prerequisites:
Rebuke Undead
Death Domain
Any non-good
Knowledge Arcane/Religion 6 @ 4th level then 8 at 14th level
Spell Focus (Necromancy) @ 15th level

Easy to fulfill but damn near annoying to find a god/demon lord/archdevil that doesn't suck whom gives the Death Domain... Most would just craft there own domain but me? Nah i'm a classic man... :smalltongue:

I recommend Divine Defiance (Sacrifice turnings/rebukes to counter spells as an immediate action? Oh god yes! :smallamused:

Illumian Dweomerkeeper
Illumian
Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 3/Dweomerkeeper 4/Mystic Theurge +7/Dweomerkeeper +4
Using the 9th level spells trick and alternative Source Spell. You cast as a level 19 Wizard, and level 11 wizard(Unless you're allowed to change caster progression part-way through, in which case Wizard 17 Cleric 13), but you still have 9th-level cleric spells.

Wildshaping Bard
Bard 1/Druid 9/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9
Not as much fun, but Wildshape and double nines are nice. Probably more optimal ways of doing it, but eh.

Wild Shaping Theurge
Bard 1/Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Mystic Theurge 6/Druid 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 10

Wild Shaping Theurge [Improved]
Never actually crunched this one out, but seems pretty good:
Bard 1/Druid 5/Arcane Heirophant 4/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 1/Arcane Heirophant 6/FL+2

Gives you 11th level Wildshaping, 18th level Druid casting, and 10th level Sublime Chord casting. Pretty good, overall.

Three very elegant and very nice builds.:

Bard 7/Abjurant Champion 2/Divine Crusader 2/Sublime Chord 1/MT 8 will get you dual 9s, Cha-SAD.

- Bard 7 gets you the +5 BAB and the martial weapon (rapier) needed for Abjurant Champion
- AC 2 gets you to +7 BAB, which you need for DC
- You qualify for Sublime Chord at 10, but you need another DC level to get into MT
- MT 8 advances DC casting to 10 and SC casting to 9, resulting in dual 9s.

Bard1/FavoredSoul9/SublimeChord1/MysticTheurge9
With the initiate of Milil gives you good Inspire Courage and such, and Southern Magician takes care of qualifications.

Neraph
Charisma Caster 4/Eldritch Knight 3/Abjurant Champion 1/Divine Crusader 1/Mystic Theurge 9/Abjurant Champion +2
Using the Neraph's martial weapon proficiency to qualify for Eldritch Knight/Abjurant Champion, and uses Versatile Caster(Combined with a bloodline for something like Sorcerer) for early entry.

Thanos, The Mad Tyrant

Fools taking up arms against omnipotence. They rush head-on into Armageddon. So I shall provide them with a most glorious doomsday! The heavens will run red with blood. But in the end, as always, THANOS will stand triumphant.

We throw around terms like God and Schrodinger without actually having a full understanding of how to truly achieve the state of godhood... For that we are guilty of sin my friends... :smallamused:

Human
UA Conjurer/9 Ur-Priest/2 Mystic Theurge/9

Prerequisites: Spell focus (Evil) & Iron Will

Human: Iron Will
1st: Extend Spell*
3rd: Spell Focus (Evil)
5th: Spontaneous Divination
6th: Spell Mastery*
9th: Uncanny Forethought*
12th: Persistent Spell*
15th: Divine Metamagic [Persistent Spell]*
18th: Theurgist Specialist

This is a little build that effectively puts the Wizard in his place, may of these feats are actually removable and adjustable as noted by the *asterisks* these feats are simply recommended.

You are a little more then the Wizard (Clearly) You are in fact the legitimate Schrodinger's Wizard Advanced, Your spell slots without modifiers look like this:

Arcane: 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2
Divine: 6/5/5/4/4/4/4/3/2/1
Total: 10/9/9/8/8/8/8/6/5/3

You can spontaneously cast the right spell you need with Uncanny Forethought, You can Persistomancy it up. You possess the Strength of both and the Weaknesses of neither, you are the perfect blend of Arcane and Divine :smallamused: you are TRULY God in every single way shape and form.

dextercorvia on destroying the action aconomy as a Divine/Arcane Theurge:

Wizard2/Archivist1/MT10

Begin as a Naenhoon IllumianRoD Wizard2. You'll want two flaws for Extend Spell, and Persistant Spell. Take Sanctum Spell for your level 1 feat, and swap Scribe Scroll for a Fighter Bonus feat (Improved Initiative is fine). Take a level of Archivist at 3rd, and pick up Twin Spell. Now you can go into Mystic Theurge for 10 levels. At 6 you grab Planar Touchstone:Catalogs of EnlightenmentPlH for the DCLS Sun Domain. At 9 you pick up Arcane ThesisPHBII: Celerity. Somewhere before level 9 you should also be able to afford 2 scrolls each of Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos. Shuffle away Scribe Scroll for Invisible Spell, and Improved Initiative for Easy MetamagicDrag325:Twin.

You can now Persist Favor of the MartyrSpC in the morning using the Naenhoon ability and the Turn attempts from the Sun domain. (NightsticksLM and a Reliquary Holy SymbolCC will help if you need more turn attempts). This makes you immune to Daze. You can cast a Twinned Celerity from a fourth level slot by taking advantage of Arcane Thesis, Easy Metamagic and the +0 metamagics Invisible and Sanctum Spell.

This will give you two additional standard actions in exchange for an immediate action and a 4th level slot.

At 12, double your fun by taking Repeat Spell. You can get 2 out of turn, and then 2 more on your next turn.

I'll add sources later. Edit: I think that is all of the unclear ones. I forget exactly where Invisible Spell is. I think it is one of the hard to find Eberron books like SoS.

Dirty/questionable tricks:

Using the Cloistered Cleric lore-thingy to qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist

Using Shape Souldmeld: Impulse Boots/Bind lesser Chakra to qualify for Fochlucan lyrist.

Using the 9th level spell trick for all the domain slots, and for prepping stuff like Dictum early, and being able to abandon cleric safely.

You actually don't need a level of Binder for Anima Mage. You take Bind Vestige, Improved Bind Vestige and Anima Mage gives you levels by itself. Also, improved Binding gives you Zceryll.

Kobold Shenanigans for early entry.

Bamboo Spirit Folk using Trackless step to qualify for Arcane Hierophant

Legacy Champion continuation beyond class levels.

Tainted Scholar shenanigans using Alternate Spell Source/Southern Magician to increase the DC for spells to insane levels.

Arcanist

2012-06-21, 10:42 AM

Have at thee playground *nervous tingle up spine*

ThiagoMartell

2012-06-21, 10:44 AM

If you could also make it less vitriolic and supporting playstyles other than absolute cheese, it would be amazing.

Arcanist

2012-06-21, 10:46 AM

If you could also make it less vitriolic and supporting playstyles other than absolute cheese, it would be amazing.

Erm... I guess I could do that? I mean I tried to adjust the stuff that showed signs of pure... I wanna say... "pride" but not be rude about it... in a specific playstyle...

EDIT: If you have anything you'd like to add to this then please, feel free to mention it. :smallsmile:

Madara

2012-06-21, 11:09 AM

I like it. Very nice
*Crosses Arms*

Now lets see it prove that Theurging can be optimized.

Aeryr

2012-06-21, 11:14 AM

Cool idea, some comments:

-The section of caster combos check the wording, for example Wizard/Archivist: "Wis: It is one of your casting stats. Slightly less important than intelligence, nowhere near. If doing that, max it, otherwise, a decently high score is good, but not too high, you need the stats." What is that?

-Precocious apprentice (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a) should be on the feat section, since it eases early entry. Southern magician (from Races of Faerun) should also be mentioned. Alternative source spell is from dragon magazine 325, that can be mentioned. Dragon magazine also contains other great feats (my favorite is theurgic bond)

-If dragon magazines are on the table bard becomes great, there is green whisperer dragon magazine 311, it advances both druid casting and bard casting and it is a great complement for a sublime fochlucan lyrist.

-White dragonspawn is not from 3rd party, dragon lance campaign setting is first party (the rest of the dragon lance material is not).

-Animal companion ACF should be mentioned, it is useful for arcane hierophants, which do not require to have a familiar when entering into the class and benefits from more effective druid level for animal companion.

-I would add Bamboo Spirit Folk to dirty tricks (not necessarily races) into Arcane Hierophant (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868490/The_Arcane_Hierophant_Examined), depending on the DM the racial feature might be allowed to work as the class feature. Combined with the above ACF you can even be a wizard/archivist/mysthic theurge/arcane hierophant.

-Certainly a slight discussion of every theurge class could be helpful, atm only the traps are mentioned. And Geomancer it's a great prc for Sha'ir.

Arcanist

2012-06-21, 11:16 AM

I like it. Very nice
*Crosses Arms*

Now lets see it prove that Theurging can be optimized.

Wizard/9 Ur-Priest/2 Mystic Theurge/9.

"I am your God now, bring me your virgins! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaI5pSdJML8")

The terrible thing is that Mystic Theurges aren't actually to hard to optimize because the only goal that you need to achieve is get 9's :smallconfused: Its hard to do in Core of course but most DMs auto approve: Core, Expanded Core, Races of Destiny/Stone/Wild/Dragon, the Complete series and the campaign setting books if applicable. :smallsmile: Its stuff like Dragon Magazine and stuff that is hard to convince your DM to allow since it is pretty much a knee jerk reaction to ban it however I'm sure that if you tell your DM that you're playing a Theurge they'll allow it since most of the Theurge stuff was actually printed in Dragon Magazine... Quite unfortunate :smallfrown:

Would have liked to see an all Theurge Sourcebook :smalltongue:

Cool idea, some comments:

-The section of caster combos check the wording, for example Wizard/Archivist: "Wis: It is one of your casting stats. Slightly less important than intelligence, nowhere near. If doing that, max it, otherwise, a decently high score is good, but not too high, you need the stats." What is that?

some of the stuff was directly copied from the old thread and I added some details without noticing the errors. Please feel free to correct me :smallsmile:

-Precocious apprentice (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a) should be on the feat section, since it eases early entry. Southern magician (from Races of Faerun) should also be mentioned. Alternative source spell is from dragon magazine 325, that can be mentioned. Dragon magazine also contains other great feats (my favorite is theurgic bond)

It took me like 5 hours to do everything that you see in the handbook right now. I missed some things :smalltongue: I'll get to adding that.

-If dragon magazines are on the table bard becomes great, there is green whisperer dragon magazine 311, it advances both druid casting and bard casting and it is a great complement for a sublime fochlucan lyrist.

I'll have to take a look at it myself but thanks for the heads up. :smalltongue:

-White dragonspawn is not from 3rd party, dragon lance campaign setting is first party (the rest of the dragon lance material is not).

Somewhere deep down I knew that... :smallfrown:

-Animal companion ACF should be mentioned, it is useful for arcane hierophants, which do not require to have a familiar when entering into the class and benefits from more effective druid level for animal companion.

Lets face it, the stuff you can do with Arcane Hierophant effectively deserves its own section.

-I would add Bamboo Spirit Folk to dirty tricks (not necessarily races) into Arcane Hierophant (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868490/The_Arcane_Hierophant_Examined), depending on the DM the racial feature might be allowed to work as the class feature. Combined with the above ACF you can even be a wizard/archivist/mysthic theurge/arcane hierophant.

Alright, thanks again...

-Certainly a slight discussion of every theurge class could be helpful, atm only the traps are mentioned.

This is true but again, I pretty much copy-pasta'd it and adjusted the lay out.

And Geomancer it's a great prc for Sha'ir.

Very true. Again stayed up all night working on this, copypasta'd mentally exhausted :smalltongue: I'll get to it thought, thanks.

The Underlord

2012-06-21, 11:25 AM

Alternative Spell Source: This feat is what separates the True God from the "I Wanna be the guy" (Straight Wizard). You are going to take this feat, I don't care if your DM isn't allowing Dragon magazine. YOU'RE TAKING THIS FEAT. This feat allows you to prepare Arcane Spells as Divine spells and vice-versa, however this comes at a cost... Your altered spell is weakened by 1 caster level (-1 CL) so it is effectively weaker... I'm sure THAT is balancing enough to convince any DM to allow this feat...
I seriously doubt any DM in a not high powered campaign would let this fly. Especially if they already said no to dragon magazine.

Arcanist

2012-06-21, 11:27 AM

I seriously doubt any DM in a not high powered campaign would let this fly. Especially if they already said no to dragon magazine.

If i put that in blue text people would have assumed I'm downgrading its rating, I meant that comment as sarcasm I wanted to stress how AMAZING that feat is :smalltongue:

EDIT: Oh nevermind you were joking as well :smallbiggrin:

The Underlord

2012-06-21, 11:34 AM

Arcanist

2012-06-21, 11:42 AM

:smallconfused: No, I wan't joking. On the internet, if you don't clearly mark sarcasm, people WILL interpret it as serious (given the attitude from the previous guide, it would not be a stretch to assume you were being serious).

I see, well I suppose I should make a section in the legend dictating where I'm being sarcastic :smallamused:

Flickerdart

2012-06-21, 11:58 AM

Arcanist

2012-06-21, 12:07 PM

I recommend you read up on Psionics, because they make excellent theurges. A Psion/Wizard can rock Psiotheurgist (Dragon Mag) to stack ML (which is huge for psionics since it means you can augment extra, and the wizard side will find it helpful if you have uncapped blast spells lying around), and Ardents make great theurges with pretty much anything since they can take a significant amount of lost levels and still get 9th level powers easily.

Perhaps I should correct myself: I am familiar enough with Psionics enough to allow them in my games, I am familiar enough with Psionics to even play a Psionic character, I am not however familiar enough to make a Theurgist build with Psionics included. But so far I can imagine Erudite EASILY being Gold from what I hear about it. :smallamused:

Flickerdart

2012-06-21, 12:14 PM

Arcanist

2012-06-21, 12:21 PM

Erudite's main advantage (using the StP variant to learn spells as powers) is pointless if you're theurging. Since you also have another class to fall back on for versatility, Erudite's other schtick is also rendered pointless. Psion is better for theurging in every way.

I see, since most some people view Psions with different disciplines as different classes what would you recommend? I personally view Telepath is the best, but I've have heard Shaper as is Egotist, but which is best? :smallconfused: I understand that Telepath has the whole "Mind effecting" descriptor which is easily countered by sheer easily acquired immunity. But I degrees, which do you believe is superior?

Flickerdart

2012-06-21, 12:23 PM

Shaper is not very useful since you can pick up Astral Construct with a feat, and that's its best power. Since Theurges love action economy, I would recommend Telepath for Schism (which is more difficult to pick up with Expanded Knowledge due to being higher level).

Arcanist

2012-06-21, 12:25 PM

Leon

2012-06-21, 12:27 PM

Now lets see it prove that Theurging can be optimized.

Anything can be optiminmaxed. To what degree will vary on the player and its still a very capable class (like the rest of 3.5) without any alteration.

Psyren

2012-06-21, 12:28 PM

Regular Cerebremancers are just fine as well. Even if the Psion side doesn't hit 9ths, you still get access to great buffs like Synchronicity, Schism and Hustle that can assist the wizard side, plus Int synergy. And of course, you can very quickly pump your Psion side up via Mental Pinnacle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm) if needed. You can even fire off Mental Pinnacle, and use all your free power points to bake a ton of Soul Crystals for you and your party.

Wiz 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/Arcane PrC +4 is perfectly viable, and has much more synergy than say Wiz 3/Cleric 3/MT 10. (Or you can use Erudite - even transferring some of your wizard spells to your psionic side to eliminate the need for material components.)

Wiz 1 (Precocious Apprentice)/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/Arcane PrC +6 works great too, and keeps you from being 3 levels behind on both sides.

Arcanist

2012-06-21, 12:55 PM

Psyren

2012-06-21, 01:13 PM

...I'm legitimately tempted to actually place that in the handbook as a note towards the Psionics section. Would you mind? :smallbiggrin:

Not at all!

Also, you should probably have a special section for the Sha'ir - it can qualify for a lot of theurges all by itself. (arcane/divine, arcane/X, and divine/X.) Check out the Sha'ir thread on the front page for a rundown if you need one.

Arcanist

2012-06-21, 01:26 PM

Not at all!

Also, you should probably have a special section for the Sha'ir - it can qualify for a lot of theurges all by itself. (arcane/divine, arcane/X, and divine/X.) Check out the Sha'ir thread on the front page for a rundown if you need one.

That thread actually gave me the resolve to actually resurrect this Handbook in the making, but i must admit that I'm still unfamiliar with the class, from the looks of the outline the Class is pretty easy to understand and with its style of spellcasting it can easily become a Fast Progression Class with Mystic Theurge applied to it. Very scary if you ask me... I mean you can theoretically have 9's by level 13... :smallamused:

sreservoir

2012-06-21, 01:29 PM

Not at all!

Also, you should probably have a special section for the Sha'ir - it can qualify for a lot of theurges all by itself. (arcane/divine, arcane/X, and divine/X.) Check out the Sha'ir thread on the front page for a rundown if you need one.

I've wondered, with sha'ir entering theurges, do you just advance sha'ir two levels per level or something?

because if so, uh, fochlucan lyrist sounds fun.

eggs

2012-06-21, 01:35 PM

The high end of the color code is really hard to read.

Ardent seriously needs a mention - it's Wis-friendly, learns powers based on its ML and provides some of the higher-powered abilities that other Wis-based casters usually lack (action economy breakage is the big one, mind control and teleportation to a lesser extent). It's also the closest thing psionics has to a fast progression class (a Cleric 9/Ardent 1/Psychic Theurge 10 with Practiced Manifester can learn up to level 8 powers. Add ML boosts, and you can hit level 9 powers without too much of a hassle)

And if Theurgic specialist is getting a shout-out, Psiotheurgist from dragon magazine #349 is similar for a caster/psion, but much more usable/powerful:
It doesn't require 3 levels of specialist wizard; just a Spell Focus feat.
Increasing ML has more powerful effects than cranking CL on a caster - instead of increasing a power's numeric effects, augments change other elements of powers like casting time

Psyren

2012-06-21, 01:37 PM

I've wondered, with sha'ir entering theurges, do you just advance sha'ir two levels per level or something?

because if so, uh, fochlucan lyrist sounds fun.

As a TO-exercise I don't see anything stopping it. Throughout the Sha'ir's description, they are described as casting both arcane spells and divine spells, thus they are both an arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class. Obviously though, a DM would be unlikely to stand for cheese of this level outside the most high-powered campaigns.

The only other base class I can think of with truly hybrid casting like this is the Savant, and since their spellcasting ability is so weak this wouldn't be an issue.

Arcanist

2012-06-21, 02:02 PM

The high end of the color code is really hard to read.

What color do you recommend I use?:smallconfused:

Ardent seriously needs a mention - it's Wis-friendly, learns powers based on its ML and provides some of the higher-powered abilities that other Wis-based casters usually lack (action economy breakage is the big one, mind control and teleportation to a lesser extent). It's also the closest thing psionics has to a fast progression class (a Cleric 9/Ardent 1/Psychic Theurge 10 with Practiced Manifester can learn up to level 8 powers. Add ML boosts, and you can hit level 9 powers without too much of a hassle)

I'm unfamiliar withe the Ardent as a whole. Explain to me how Ardents manage to achieve that much power in such a short span of time and I don't think Practiced Manifester works the way you're thinking. I'm unfamiliar with the feat (as it is Psionics), but I believe it functions as Practiced Spellcaster works... right?

And if Theurgic specialist is getting a shout-out, Psiotheurgist from dragon magazine #349 is similar for a caster/psion, but much more usable/powerful:
It doesn't require 3 levels of specialist wizard; just a Spell Focus feat.
Increasing ML has more powerful effects than cranking CL on a caster - instead of increasing a power's numeric effects, augments change other elements of powers like casting time

So true, Alright, I can see no reason to NOT include that feat, I am starting to understand how Cerebremancers work... Is there a feat that allows a Manifester/Caster use Metapsionics and Metamagics together.

eggs

2012-06-21, 02:26 PM

I'm unfamiliar withe the Ardent as a whole. Explain to me how Ardents manage to achieve that much power in such a short span of time and I don't think Practiced Manifester works the way you're thinking. I'm unfamiliar with the feat (as it is Psionics), but I believe it functions as Practiced Spellcaster works... right?
It does. But that affects the Ardent differently from other manifesters.

Every time the Ardent gains a level, it can learn any power that it is capable of manifesting (where the Base PP cost is less than or equal to the Ardent's manifester level). Practiced Manifester, by raising the Ardent's manifester level, raises the maximum level of power that the Ardent can learn.

This can get a bit tricky because Ardents have very restrictive lists of powers available (think a Cleric, if it could only learn spells from its domains, and its domains didn't always have a spell for every level), but it makes them the most multiclass-friendly of the manifesters.

Grim Reader

2012-06-21, 02:32 PM

-Precocious apprentice (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114a) should be on the feat section, since it eases early entry.

Precocious Apprentice feat does not work. This is due to WOTC ruling, albeit with a dubious underlaying rules explanation, but also due to the wording of the feat itself. When you gain second-level spells for the first time, you lose the ability to cast the spell you selected and instead get an extra spell slot for that class.

Note, however, that the same ruling that disallowed Precocious Apprentice explicitly allowed the heighten/Versatile combo for early entry. Which actually gives spontaneous casters an advantage for PrC qualifications.

Also, you should probably have a special section for the Sha'ir - it can qualify for a lot of theurges all by itself. (arcane/divine, arcane/X, and divine/X.) Check out the Sha'ir thread on the front page for a rundown if you need one.

I am unsure about this, and away from books, but I think you have to be able to cast all your spells as Divine to qualify as a Divine caster. And all your spells as Arcane to qualify as an Arcane caster. So the Sha'ir qualifies as neither, rather than both.

This is certainly the case for prepared/spontaneous casting, although it is a frequently ignored rule, as I vaguely remember it opens for a few ways to lose your status as a prepared or spontaneus caster as a consequence.

Psyren

2012-06-21, 02:39 PM

I am unsure about this, and away from books, but I think you have to be able to cast all your spells as Divine to qualify as a Divine caster. And all your spells as Arcane to qualify as an Arcane caster. So the Sha'ir qualifies as neither, rather than both.

This is certainly the case for prepared/spontaneous casting, although it is a frequently ignored rule, as I vaguely remember it opens for a few ways to lose your status as a prepared or spontaneus caster as a consequence.

That isn't the case at all, and your own example proves it. Clerics can cast both prepared and spontaneously, yet they are not considered "neither." The same is true of Spontaneous Divination Wizards. A Wizard who takes Spontaneous Divination can still enter Geometer and MotAO, because they still prepare spells.

You could perhaps make an argument for Sha'irs being "predominantly" arcane, and therefore arcane spellcasters, but divine prestige classes and theurges only care if you can cast divine spells of a particular level, not what the ratio is.

Grim Reader

2012-06-21, 02:50 PM

That isn't the case at all, and your own example proves it. Clerics can cast both prepared and spontaneously, yet they are not considered "neither." The same is true of Spontaneous Divination Wizards. A Wizard who takes Spontaneous Divination can still enter Geometer and MotAO, because they still prepare spells.

Clerics can cast all the spells they've access to as prepared spells. They can also cast some spells sponteneously or prepare them. Hence they are prepared casters. As I said, I am away from books but I believe the rule in question was in the Rules Compendium somewhere just after page 120.

I've not looked at it for years, but to lose your status as a prepared caster, I have a vague memory you need some way of getting access to spells with that caster class that you could only cast spontaneously, and not prepare. But like I said, that is frequently ignored.

Madara

2012-06-21, 02:59 PM

I am unsure about this, and away from books, but I think you have to be able to cast all your spells as Divine to qualify as a Divine caster. And all your spells as Arcane to qualify as an Arcane caster. So the Sha'ir qualifies as neither, rather than both.

What if you multiclass? "All" your spells? Now you no longer qualify to Theurge...in fact no one does according to that train of thought.

Flickerdart

2012-06-21, 03:00 PM

Precocious Apprentice feat does not work. This is due to WOTC ruling, albeit with a dubious underlaying rules explanation, but also due to the wording of the feat itself. When you gain second-level spells for the first time, you lose the ability to cast the spell you selected and instead get an extra spell slot for that class.
If you have 2nd level spells, then you meet the requirements for the class (having 2nd level spells) and thus do not lose your 2nd level spells. Since the only time Precocious Apprentice stops granting 2nd level spells is when you get 2nd level spells, there is no point at which you do not have 2nd level spells.

Psyren

2012-06-21, 03:09 PM

Clerics can cast all the spells they've access to as prepared spells. They can also cast some spells sponteneously or prepare them. Hence they are prepared casters.

There is no "all" or "some" requirement - just the ability to cast {category} spells of {X} level, which Sha'ir meet. And I don't see anything in Rules Compendium that supports them being neither arcane nor divine.

Aeryr

2012-06-21, 03:14 PM

Very true. Again stayed up all night working on this, copypasta'd mentally exhausted :smalltongue: I'll get to it thought, thanks.

Don't worry keep up the great work :smallsmile:

Precocious Apprentice feat does not work. This is due to WOTC ruling, albeit with a dubious underlaying rules explanation, but also due to the wording of the feat itself. When you gain second-level spells for the first time, you lose the ability to cast the spell you selected and instead get an extra spell slot for that class.

Note, however, that the same ruling that disallowed Precocious Apprentice explicitly allowed the heighten/Versatile combo for early entry. Which actually gives spontaneous casters an advantage for PrC qualifications.

That is weird as hell. So if I you were to be a wizard 1 / druid 3 taking precocious apprentice gives you druid slots? :smalleek: Could you cite the source?

If you have 2nd level spells, then you meet the requirements for the class (having 2nd level spells) and thus do not lose your 2nd level spells. Since the only time Precocious Apprentice stops granting 2nd level spells is when you get 2nd level spells, there is no point at which you do not have 2nd level spells.

That's always been my reading.

Grim Reader

2012-06-21, 04:20 PM

What if you multiclass? "All" your spells? Now you no longer qualify to Theurge...in fact no one does according to that train of thought.

Your classes are kept separate. A multiclass caster can be prepared, spontaneous, arcane, divine or all four. They are all kept track of separatly.

If you have 2nd level spells, then you meet the requirements for the class (having 2nd level spells) and thus do not lose your 2nd level spells. Since the only time Precocious Apprentice stops granting 2nd level spells is when you get 2nd level spells, there is no point at which you do not have 2nd level spells.

But to qualify for most Theurge classes, you need two sources of second level spells. When you gain 2nd level spells in your second class, you lose it in the first, if you relied on Precocious Apprentice.

There is no "all" or "some" requirement - just the ability to cast {category} spells of {X} level, which Sha'ir meet. And I don't see anything in Rules Compendium that supports them being neither arcane nor divine.

Like I said, it is quite possible I misremember. Or that its just been a local extrapolation of the prepared/spontaneous thing. But in any case you are right that the text does not actually specify that you must be an Arcane or Divine caster, just have the ability to cast Arcane and Divine spells.

That is weird as hell. So if I you were to be a wizard 1 / druid 3 taking precocious apprentice gives you druid slots? :smalleek: Could you cite the source?

Source is the feat text itself.
We humans have a tendency to build an image in our heads relating to the stuff we are reading, in this case builds we can make. But when we do, it is quite easy to mentally insert stuff that isn't actually there in the text. A lot of really fun optimization discoveriess happen when we read stuff again and notice that it doesn't actually work like we read it. But that works both ways. There is actually nothing in the feat that ties the spell slot trigger to the class you were when you took the feat.

In your example, you would have had to take the feat as a first level character, so you'd have started as a wizard 1. So when you hit Druid 3, you get an extra Druid slot and lose the 2nd level arcane spell.

When using RAW for early-entry tricks, we kindof have to make sure the RAW works.

Spuddles

2012-06-21, 05:31 PM

Both druids and clerics qualify for, but cannot use, versatile spellcaster. However, a level in wizard and copying a second level spell into your spellbook let's you use it.

Voila, early entrance. It also allows for some really awesome spontaneous utility.

dextercorvia

2012-06-21, 05:32 PM

Spuddles

2012-06-21, 05:47 PM

Why would you say this? They must simply expend two spell slots, and they can cast a spell they know.

Druids and clerics don't actually know their spells.

dextercorvia

2012-06-21, 06:01 PM

Druids and clerics don't actually know their spells.

It is just in a different place.

Characters who can cast divine spells undertake a certain amount of study between adventures. Each time such a character receives a new level of divine spells, he or she learns new spells from that level automatically.

And to stave off the next objection, learn and know are used as two tenses of the same action in regards to wizards.

Wizards can add new spells to their spellbooks through several methods. If a wizard has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, she can learn spells only from schools whose spells she can cast.
Spells Gained at a New Level

Wizards perform a certain amount of spell research between adventures. Each time a character attains a new wizard level, she gains two spells of her choice to add to her spellbook. The two free spells must be of spell levels she can cast. If she has chosen to specialize in a school of magic, one of the two free spells must be from her specialty school.

So Clerics and Druids know all of the spells of a level they can cast.

Larkas

2012-06-21, 06:02 PM

Quick question: don't Heightened first level spells count as second level spells?

dextercorvia

2012-06-21, 06:05 PM

Quick question: don't Heightened first level spells count as second level spells?

If you heighten them the correct amount, they do.

Larkas

2012-06-21, 06:11 PM

If you heighten them the correct amount, they do.

Then I don't see how knowing or not knowing 2nd level spells would impact anything. As a Cleric 1/Wizard 2 with Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell you are able to cast second level divine and arcane spells, regardless of knowing any, by Heightening first level Cleric and Wizard spells.

dextercorvia

2012-06-21, 06:13 PM

Then I don't see how knowing or not knowing 2nd level spells would impact anything. Cleric 1/Wizard 2 with Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell you are able to cast second level divine and arcane spells, regardless of knowing any, by Heightening first level Cleric and Wizard spells.

He was claiming that you don't know any of your cleric spells, so you cannot use versatile spellcaster on them, since it only allows you to cast a spell you know. However know is not a defined game term, and it is used interchangeably in many places with spells you have learned.

Larkas

2012-06-21, 06:16 PM

He was claiming that you don't know any of your cleric spells, so you cannot use versatile spellcaster on them, since it only allows you to cast a spell you know. However know is not a defined game term, and it is used interchangeably in many places with spells you have learned.

Ooooh, got it. Sorry for the mess up. That argument (the one about Clerics and Druids not knowing spells), however, was something I never heard before. :smallconfused:

dextercorvia

2012-06-21, 06:20 PM

Ooooh, got it. Sorry for the mess up. That argument (the one about Clerics and Druids not knowing spells), however, was something I never heard before. :smallconfused:

It comes up occasionally, because there is nothing in the class description. It used to come up about wizard fairly often (for the same reason), but I believe the tireless efforts of countless forumites has nearly stamped out that heresy.

Spuddles

2012-06-21, 06:24 PM

He was claiming that you don't know any of your cleric spells, so you cannot use versatile spellcaster on them, since it only allows you to cast a spell you know. However know is not a defined game term, and it is used interchangeably in many places with spells you have learned.

Googling around has led me to believe that droods and clerics dont know spells. I'll see if I can't find those links again.

dextercorvia

2012-06-21, 07:22 PM

Googling around has led me to believe that droods and clerics dont know spells. I'll see if I can't find those links again.

Reading the rules has led me to believe that they do. :smallwink:

Here is another indication:

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

The rest of the places that is referenced say "the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard)". This is not to say that only sorcerers and bards must know the spell, but that it is sufficient in their case. Prepared casters, must know the spell, and have it prepared.

Edit: Divine Metamagic also only works on spells that you know. It isn't proof, but more indication that clerics know the spells they can prepare.

sreservoir

2012-06-21, 07:38 PM

sreservoir

2012-06-21, 07:40 PM

Edit: Divine Metamagic also only works on spells that you know. It isn't proof, but more indication that clerics know the spells they can prepare.

that, or it only works for spontanously divine casters who somehow have turn/rebuke undead, proably through a dip of some sort! ... I guess that makes it less powerful.

dextercorvia

2012-06-21, 07:57 PM

in terms of early entry, naenhoon illumian with heighten spell and at least 1 turn attempt can be limited only by skill ranks, qualifying spell-wise by 2 and losing only a single caster level in total. it seems that magical training would allow this to be done with no loss of caster levels, but then you have to finagle a regional feat which ... might not be a trivial feat.

You want to lose one casting level, so that you get dual progression -- unless you are a Sha'ir (sp?).

that, or it only works for spontanously divine casters who somehow have turn/rebuke undead, proably through a dip of some sort! ... I guess that makes it less powerful.

Which is why I said indication, not proof. The proof is the line that says they learn spells. The indication, just provides backup for the notion that you actually know the spells you learn, since we have to fall back on a plain English definition of know.

Arcanist

2012-06-21, 09:06 PM

Been editing around the layout, added some new stuff, noted the WoTC ruling on Precocious Apprentice, and altered the legend so that the higher up stuff becomes more noticeable :smallredface:

Keep it coming guys, this is some good stuff :smallsmile:

Kuulvheysoon

2012-06-22, 08:55 AM

Looking very nice here, man.

Just a few things -

Classes and combos: Maybe have a fourth section here for 'Other', listing the other possible theurge classes (Shadowcaster, Binder, Warlock, etc...)

Shadowcaster Entry into Noctumancer/Mystic Theurge: Note that for entry into Mystic Theurge, Shadowcaster can count as either divine or arcane (with some limitations), so for a Mystic Theurge it's possible to be either a Mystery/Divine OR Mystery/Arcane.

Spirit Shaman: Although they're spontaneous casters, they actually have the same rate of spell access as prepared casters (levels 1/3/5/7 etc... as opposed to 1/4/6/8)

Eldritch Disciple: Worth noting that the DFA can qualify for his one, but it cannot qualify for the Eldritch Theurge (no Eldritch Blast).

Sapphire Hierarch: Your compiled list of theurgy is missing this one. It's meldshaping/divine.

I'll definitely be keeping an eye on this one. I think that everybody's got the rant out of their system with the first thread, and now we should only be left with help.

ahenobarbi

2012-06-22, 09:16 AM

Could you include guidelines on building theurges with dominant divine side (eg. Cleric 5 (with anyspell)/Wizard 1/Theurgy)?

Harry

2012-06-22, 12:32 PM

Snowbluff

2012-06-22, 01:05 PM

I like it. Very nice
*Crosses Arms*

Now lets see it prove that Theurging can be optimized.

I'm going sig this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239524) Theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239524) resaerch I did. It exemplifies optimized use of the best Theurge. The UBERMOUNT ArcHeir. Hell, I might sig the final build I used.

TL;DR Dragon 325 is really good with theurging.

A handbook written by Little Brother and being updated by Arcanist. I fear the worst.

Madara

2012-06-22, 01:19 PM

I liked the handbook so far but one thing I didnt like was the thanos build it seems kind of weak anyway you could change that to I don't know wizard5/tainted scholar2/ur priest 2/mystic thurge 10/archmage 1 with the ritual of alignment maybe ?

Ah yes, Tainted Scholar Cheese would be perfect for any Theurge Build :smallbiggrin:

sreservoir

2012-06-22, 01:52 PM

Ah yes, Tainted Scholar Cheese would be perfect for any Theurge Build :smallbiggrin:

even without delving into tainted scholar, taint is wonderful for theurges. eldritch corruption, anyone?

eggs

2012-06-22, 02:39 PM

A few things:

Who is this guide for?

If it's for someone who doesn't know how to play a theurge at all or doesn't know what all the different classes/feats/ACFs/etc. from the however-many dozen splatbooks are, the guide really needs some discussion on what the different things are, what they do and where to find them. Otherwise, it's a bunch of buzzwords that a new player has to dig around splatbooks and other websites, trying to learn this stuff on their own - the process that guides are typically designed to avoid.

If it's for someone who does know how to play a theurge and does know all the contents of the guide already, you'll need to make arguments or otherwise justify your claims. For example, you repeatedly bash the Druid spell list and refer to the Druid as a second-rate theurge option. As a reader, I want to contest those claims, arguing that the Druid list has powerful and unique spells which really aren't clearly worse than the Cleric alternatives (Faerie Fire, Entangle, Aspect of X, Summon Nature's Ally, Blinding Spittle, Kelpstrand, Bone Talisman, Binding Winds, Acorn of Far Travel, etc.) and has two full dual progression prestige classes that aren't available to the Archivist or Druid. There are many other judgements in the guide that I disagree with, and I'm sure you would disagree with many of my judgements. That's fine, but without discussing why these judgement calls are being made (and doing so in the guide), all that I'm taking away from the handbook is that there's someone somewhere who disagrees with me. That isn't persuasive; if you made arguments, it could be.

My second concern is that most of this guide's contents rely on rules exploits, rather than clearly-intended procedures. That's fun and clever for internet discussions, but problematic for real games - a list of the cornerstone assumptions of this handbook will read very closely to a list of frequently-banned materials. Some mention really needs to be made on their various subjects. Early entry tricks are frequently banned - is it even worth theurging then? How? Divine Metamagic often prompts a Nightstick nerf; if that happens, what happens to the Cleric's standing?

And a lot of this needs some form of explanation. Why is Alternative Source spell useful? What Planar Touchstones are you recommending? How can you afford Divine Metamagic often enough to justify a feat? What spells would you Persist and how could that obsolete a party? I've spent way too much time on this hobby, so I can take a leap and assume I know what you're talking about; but for someone who hasn't, those seem uninformative.

Larkas

2012-06-22, 02:46 PM

Very minor nitpick: True Necro is technically 12/14 (10 levels of dual casting, plus 2 levels for each class separately). It is still a trap, but it can give a single 9 if you build it intelligently with early entry cheese into MT: Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Cleric OR Wizard +1/Mystic Theurge 2/True Necromancer 14/Mystic Theurge +1. I'm not saying it's worth it, though it's better than the "classic" Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Cleric OR Wizard +4.

Anyways, keep up the good work, Arcanist! :smallsmile:

EDIT: Just saw eggs' post, and I must say I agree with him. You could make the explanations more clear. Basically, make it so newbies, or at least people not so experienced, could understand this fairly easily. MT isn't very hard to understand, it's just a little hard to build, so I don't think it should be viewed as "expert" material. For example, I'm sure most of us here knows this, but why shouldn't we lose 9s? More importantly, in this context, what ARE 9s? Just give it a reread, and think of how each point could be made more clearly. Also, it would be interesting if you explained each assumption you make, like eggs said. For example: "for this build to be feasible, you need to go MT as soon as you can. If your DM doesn't allow this or that strategy to do so, or ban A, B or C material, you unfortunately won't be able to make the most out of these instructions". Maybe also point out the source for each material, somewhat like you did in the post "Theurgist's Laboratory". For example: Mystic Theurge DMG, Ur-Priest CD and Versatile Spellcaster RDr. Now, you don't need to go into spell lists or strategies for each of the "sides": these are the reasons the links for each of the classes are there, so you can just point to the relevant link and get on with it.

Anyways, my suggestions for colors: Worst Bad Regular Good Great Best. Should be easier to read and faster to differentiate :smallwink:

Well, just my (very long) 2 cp :smallsmile:

Arcanist

2012-06-22, 04:25 PM

I liked the handbook so far but one thing I didnt like was the thanos build it seems kind of weak anyway you could change that to I don't know wizard5/tainted scholar2/ur priest 2/mystic thurge 10/archmage 1 with the ritual of alignment maybe ?

You don't qualify for Ur-Priest at Wizard/5 Tainted Scholar/2. If you want to use Taint you can always go Wizard/5 Tainted Scholar/5 Ur-Priest/2 Mystic Theurge/8 Same results effectively just a little bit more sauce :smallsmile:

The Thanos build was a reference to the Thanos thread we had here a little while back where everyone agreed that he would be a StP Erudite/9 Ur-Priest/2 Psychic Theurge/9 I saw the build as incredibly great however I didn't care much for Erudite so I simply changed it to Wizard.

Thrice Dead Cat

2012-06-22, 05:03 PM

eggs has some valid concerns. At the expense of looking like a Wikipedia article, citations needed are a must. People's mileage will vary for a lot of different reasons and designer intent is forever a sticky wicket. Everyone's cheese limit is different, after all.

Probably one of the most daunting things about this handbook is just how many different ways there are to make any given theurge. Even in just the PHB, there are four classes that look to make a reasonable Mystic Theurge (Sorc/Wiz+Cleric/Druid), then adding just the complete series, you've got a mess. Little Brother tried to narrow his guide to just arcane+divine, but there are still a lot of things to any given recipe.

Flickerdart and Psyren already made mention of what I like to call the "Two guns, one arm" problem that theurges suffer from. There are ways to overcome this (DMM: Quicken for clerics, swift action spells on your different lists, Schism, etc.) but you are not always going to be able to blast off two of your highest level spells in the same round.

You're best options are either going to involve Ur-Priest and other quicken casters, but each of those has a major restriction to it, or early entry cheese. The poster boy is ebil, Apostle of Peace is [exalted], Divine Crusader gets a single-bleeping-domain, Beholder Mage is almost always DM-only, and such. To that point, I'd almost take a post per PrC to really get to it what with all these different class lists.

Actually looking at what you have written, I think you're too harsh on both the wu jen and druid. The former is basically a generalist wizard, but its spell list has some very weird (and good!) gems not found on the wizard list. The druid is also one of the simpler ways to get double nines with the ever lovely Arcane Heirophant what with Arcane 3/Druid 3/MT 2/AH10/MT+2. While it lacks the domain options of the cleric, it doubles up the power of your buff spells via the companion.

Arcanist

2012-06-22, 05:57 PM

=>eggs

Who is this guide for?

If it's for someone who doesn't know how to play a theurge at all or doesn't know what all the different classes/feats/ACFs/etc. from the however-many dozen splatbooks are, the guide really needs some discussion on what the different things are, what they do and where to find them. Otherwise, it's a bunch of buzzwords that a new player has to dig around splatbooks and other websites, trying to learn this stuff on their own - the process that guides are typically designed to avoid.

You raise a good point, I should list sources for the feats, ACF, notes on the buzzwords for explaininations. I'll put "edit to make more user friendly at the top of my list".

If it's for someone who does know how to play a theurge and does know all the contents of the guide already, you'll need to make arguments or otherwise justify your claims. For example, you repeatedly bash the Druid spell list and refer to the Druid as a second-rate theurge option. As a reader, I want to contest those claims, arguing that the Druid list has powerful and unique spells which really aren't clearly worse than the Cleric alternatives (Faerie Fire, Entangle, Aspect of X, Summon Nature's Ally, Blinding Spittle, Kelpstrand, Bone Talisman, Binding Winds, Acorn of Far Travel, etc.) and has two full dual progression prestige classes that aren't available to the Archivist or Druid. There are many other judgements in the guide that I disagree with, and I'm sure you would disagree with many of my judgements. That's fine, but without discussing why these judgement calls are being made (and doing so in the guide), all that I'm taking away from the handbook is that there's someone somewhere who disagrees with me. That isn't persuasive; if you made arguments, it could be.

I must admit I am a weebit uneducated and for the most part as an Divine base Druid has access to a lot of actually really good spells and other features. I'm going to need more information on Druids to be able to make an effective judgement on them, However I will note that yes as Theurges they possess the ability to actually gain access to 9th level spells the easiest. Albeit you will lose Wild Shaping Progression so you will cap out on 13HD for your Wild Shapes. You also gain the benefits of the Companion Familiar which is just amazing, since you're going to lose your Familiar I recommend you just do the obvious and take an Immediate Magic feat (I recommend Conjuration as always). I'm actually trying to work on a small section for Arcane Hierophant as it is actually not that bad of a class, plenty of benefits, decent theurgic spell list, Free Light Armor (Leather, padded, hide).

To summarize, I did NOT list Druid as DeepSkyBlue due to a failed spell list, I more accurately meant that it is due to my lack of knowledge on the subject.

My second concern is that most of this guide's contents rely on rules exploits, rather than clearly-intended procedures. That's fun and clever for internet discussions, but problematic for real games - a list of the cornerstone assumptions of this handbook will read very closely to a list of frequently-banned materials. Some mention really needs to be made on their various subjects. Early entry tricks are frequently banned - is it even worth theurging then? How? Divine Metamagic often prompts a Nightstick nerf; if that happens, what happens to the Cleric's standing?

I see, I'll put a note stating books and sources that are more commonly approved of.

And a lot of this needs some form of explanation. Why is Alternative Source spell useful? What Planar Touchstones are you recommending? How can you afford Divine Metamagic often enough to justify a feat? What spells would you Persist and how could that obsolete a party? I've spent way too much time on this hobby, so I can take a leap and assume I know what you're talking about; but for someone who hasn't, those seem uninformative.

-Alternative Spell Source allows you to apply Divine Metamagic to your Arcane Spells in addition to your Divine Spells, there are plenty of Arcane Spells worth persisting that are actually impossible to do without such cheese, the most prominent and famous is Shapechange, Gate is a hilarious choice, Honestly the only true purpose behind Alternative Spell Source is because it allows you to abuse your Wizard/Sorcerer Spells to further your access to CoDzilla shenanigans, But those shenanigans aren't always allowed at Tables, honestly if you are in a Core game and you REALLY want to play a Mystic Theurge then the classic Wizard/Cleric works just fine, as does the Wizard/Psion . Personally I recommend Wizard/Telepath because with Psionics you don't absolutely NEED to max out your Manifesting since for the most part you will be using a lot of your powers to buff your self up and occasionally when you find yourself without a Spellbook.

I recommend the Catalogs of Enlightenment, Allows you access to a Cleric Domain, this can potentially help you achieve a multitude of prerequisites. This list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9236967&postcount=3) is actually a good start for searching for Touchstone feats.

=>Larkas

Very minor nitpick: True Necro is technically 12/14 (10 levels of dual casting, plus 2 levels for each class separately). It is still a trap, but it can give a single 9 if you build it intelligently with early entry cheese into MT: Cleric 1/Wizard 1/Cleric OR Wizard +1/Mystic Theurge 2/True Necromancer 14/Mystic Theurge +1. I'm not saying it's worth it, though it's better than the "classic" Cleric 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Cleric OR Wizard +4.

I cannot stress this enough. If you see an error in this handbook RIDE ME ABOUT IT otherwise chances are I'll never get to it and it will be inaccurate. So yeah, thanks for the more accurate information :smallsmile:

Anyways, keep up the good work, Arcanist! :smallsmile:

I'll be the first to admit this: I'm lazy, I really am... but thanks, you guys have been some SERIOUS help to me constructing... Well... Can I say this is my handbook now? :smallconfused: I mean LB did start it, I just wanna finish it...

EDIT: Just saw eggs' post, and I must say I agree with him. You could make the explanations more clear. Basically, make it so newbies, or at least people not so experienced, could understand this fairly easily. MT isn't very hard to understand, it's just a little hard to build, so I don't think it should be viewed as "expert" material. For example, I'm sure most of us here knows this, but why shouldn't we lose 9s? More importantly, in this context, what ARE 9s? Just give it a reread, and think of how each point could be made more clearly. Also, it would be interesting if you explained each assumption you make, like eggs said. For example: "for this build to be feasible, you need to go MT as soon as you can. If your DM doesn't allow this or that strategy to do so, or ban A, B or C material, you unfortunately won't be able to make the most out of these instructions". Maybe also point out the source for each material, somewhat like you did in the post "Theurgist's Laboratory". For example: Mystic Theurge DMG, Ur-Priest CD and Versatile Spellcaster RDr. Now, you don't need to go into spell lists or strategies for each of the "sides": these are the reasons the links for each of the classes are there, so you can just point to the relevant link and get on with it.

Making this more user friendly is at the top of my list man, with that update I'll be adding citation of course, and other such notes, list build variations. Honestly? As a Mystic Theurge I am completely fine in playing a Cleric/3 Wizard/3 Mystic theurge/10. I am however currently looking into methods to allow for multiple Spellcasting. I recall reading somewhere a trick that allows you to have multiple Schisms up, so if you could cite or help me find tricks that will help me allow a caster to shoot off multiple spells in a round.

Anyways, my suggestions for colors: Worst Bad Regular Good Great Best. Should be easier to read and faster to differentiate :smallwink:

Good recommendation for color coordination. It'll take me a while to adjust it so be patient.

=>Thrice Dead Cat

eggs has some valid concerns. At the expense of looking like a Wikipedia article, citations needed are a must. People's mileage will vary for a lot of different reasons and designer intent is forever a sticky wicket. Everyone's cheese limit is different, after all.

Top of my list of things to do. :smallsmile: Thank you for the response.

Probably one of the most daunting things about this handbook is just how many different ways there are to make any given theurge. Even in just the PHB, there are four classes that look to make a reasonable Mystic Theurge (Sorc/Wiz+Cleric/Druid), then adding just the complete series, you've got a mess. Little Brother tried to narrow his guide to just arcane+divine, but there are still a lot of things to any given recipe.

Yeah... but I want to offer Theurge players a chance at something MORE then Arcane/Divine, I want them to know that there are more combos then just Arcane/Divine, I want players to experience Arcane, Binding, Divine, Mysteries, Incarnum, etcetera ad infinitum. Call it cheesy but I honestly want this to eventually turn into a full Theurge handbook where every option has a voice and has its potential uses. :smallsmile:

Flickerdart and Psyren already made mention of what I like to call the "Two guns, one arm" problem that theurges suffer from. There are ways to overcome this (DMM: Quicken for clerics, swift action spells on your different lists, Schism, etc.) but you'll always going to be able to blast off two of your highest level spells in the same round.

As previously stated, If you find anymore methods of multi-casting then please, feel free to tell me and they will be added :smallsmile: Currently I only have DMM: Quicken and Schism off the top of my head but I'd be willing to give it its own small section on overcoming the greatest weakness of being a Theurge.

You're best options are either going to involve Ur-Priest and other quicken casters, but each of those has a major restriction to it, or early entry cheese. The poster boy is ebil, Apostle of Peace is [exalted], Divine Crusader gets a single-bleeping-domain, Beholder Mage is almost always DM-only, and such. To that point, I'd almost take a post per PrC to really get to it what with all these different class lists.

"Power corrupts, Absolute power corrupts absolutely" :smallamused:

I wanted to put a list of Theurgic classes that most DMs are likely to allow, however each DM creates a campaign differently so not all base classes would be acceptable...

Actually looking at what you have written, I think you're too harsh on both the wu jen and druid. The former is basically a generalist wizard, but its spell list has some very weird (and good!) gems not found on the wizard list. The druid is also one of the simpler ways to get double nines with the ever lovely Arcane Heirophant what with Arcane 3/Druid 3/MT 2/AH10/MT+2. While it lacks the domain options of the cleric, it doubles up the power of your buff spells via the companion.

I know nothing of the Wu Jen so I'm still waiting on more information to reach my ears, yes the Wu Jen is a Generalist Wizard, and has some really good spells but the little I have heard on the class isn't to impressive, I've been examining the Wu Jen handbook however I haven't had a chance to actually sit down and read all about the Wu Jen spells so yeah...
I understand that Druid is a good class, it is a phenomenal Theurging option (obtained new information during the typing of this response) so yes, I understand I have to go back and improve it.

I'd like to thank everyone (who helped) so far for all the information you were so kind to provide me with. :smallsmile:

Thrice Dead Cat

2012-06-22, 06:46 PM

While not much, it is worth mentioning that 2nd level Wu Jen get a free re-roll once per day on Knowledge checks. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20070227x)

The other core+ full casters have additional features listed, too, even if most of the listed features are either inaccessible due to level limits or are on spontaneous classes.

As an aside, I'd avoid mentioning Tainted Scholar, as that is a can of worms unto itself.

EDIT: And StP Erudite should be mentioned, if only for how unbelievable awesome it is to know almost your entire spellbook twice over.

Arcanist

2012-06-22, 07:14 PM

While not much, it is worth mentioning that 2nd level Wu Jen get a free re-roll once per day on Knowledge checks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060228a).

For Theurgist its not much use mentioning class features from your base classes because its highly unlike that you will progress them beyond your requirements for Mystic Theurge or whatever you're looking for so its kind of unnecessary to list that kind of stuff. Of course there are some good Class features you are going to want/need (like turn undead) but the vast majority of them advance by class level and not character level.

As an aside, I'd avoid mentioning Tainted Scholar, as that is a can of worms unto itself.

I agree, but if it is brought up in this thread then I will respond to it, however It will not be mentioned in the main handbook.

EDIT: And StP Erudite should be mentioned, if only for how unbelievable awesome it is to know almost your entire spellbook twice over.

I have to make a mention of all the worth while Psionic ACF and I still have to sharpen myself up on Druids, Psionics and True naming. I'm tempted to just exclude True naming as a whole because... its just... ugh... Its own handbook insults the damn class... :smalleek: If that isn't a sign of true horror I just don't know what is... But anywho! I still have more work to do in the ACF section because... ugh so many options... :smallamused:

Amidus Drexel

2012-06-22, 08:27 PM

Arcanist

2012-06-22, 08:53 PM

Are Sorcerer 4/Wilder 4/Cerebremancer 10/X 2 builds worth mentioning? If you aren't TOO worried about getting 9th level powers/spells, they can be pretty good. Practiced Manifester shores up everything the Wilder side loses except high level powers, and Practiced Spellcaster makes the Sorcerer side not suck so much. The build doesn't have much in the line of high-level effects, but you can spam lower-level effects (something both Sorcerers and Wilders are pretty good at anyway) all day long, and with your enhanced casting/manifesting level, most of your lower-level spells/powers are just as strong as they would have been had you remained a single-class manifester/caster. There are a lot of feats and class features that let you add your Cha bonus to nearly anything, which should make up for some of the weak points of this build.

While Wilder/Sorcerer is a SAD-Cha build and in most cases very good however the fact that it has a slow spell progression its kind of a Turn off for most Theurgist, it is impossible for you to gain any form of 9's at all in that guild and in reality the primary rule of thumb is to atleast get 9th level spells (especially Arcane) which are always welcome. Where as with 9th level powers aren't necessary however are nice to say the least. Anyway... Wilder isn't to good of a choice and if you are going for a Arcane/Psionic Theurge go for Wizard/Psion (telepath). Practiced Spellcaster/Manifester isn't to good because you are effectively sacrificing a feat for something you should basically already have. In a low-OP campaign that type of build would be A-ok but eh... It just lacks the power to achieve the power that a Theurgist is supposed to have...

To summarize: Your build is... Good just not super good... Spontaneous casters just aren't to good due to a slower spell progression...

I can't think of anything great to add for the last two levels of that, though; a PrC that gives you higher-level spells or powers would be perfect, but I can't think of any.

If you have permission for Dragon Magazine then I would go for Mind Mage :smallsmile: otherwise I recommend a class like Archmage. There are hundreds of Wizard prestige classes that could compliment your arcane casting :smallsmile:

Thrice Dead Cat

2012-06-22, 08:55 PM

The problem with sorcerer/wilder is that it's down a whole hell of a lot of spells/powers known. Practiced Manifestor helps somewhat in that you can still pump up your powers known, but you're still down at least a feat, and, more painfully, four powers known on an already terribly short list of "powers known."

The same is true for sorcerers, but less so. Early entry can help, but you're still down on actual class features from the wilder (or possible PrCs), so even though you're SAD, why not just use Wizard/Psion instead?

Amidus Drexel

2012-06-22, 09:11 PM

eh, it was just a thought, mostly running on ideas of what to do with a Cha bonus. Wizard/Psion is definitely better, by far.

@arcanist - I really like that you've brought back this thread; it had some nice stuff previously, but it's far more useful now. i'd love to see this fully fleshed out with EVERYTHING theurge.

Arcanist

2012-06-22, 09:19 PM

eh, it was just a thought, mostly running on ideas of what to do with a Cha bonus. Wizard/Psion is definitely better, by far.

Its not that your build is bad... Its just there better stuff to choose from... With some heavy optimization your build can effectively achieve godhood :smalltongue:

@arcanist - I really like that you've brought back this thread; it had some nice stuff previously, but it's far more useful now. i'd love to see this fully fleshed out with EVERYTHING theurge.

I'm not gonna promise anything but eventually I'll make this handbook the perfect guide to Theurges. and thank you for your vote of confidence :smallsmile:

Larkas

2012-06-22, 09:30 PM

I cannot stress this enough. If you see an error in this handbook RIDE ME ABOUT IT otherwise chances are I'll never get to it and it will be inaccurate. So yeah, thanks for the more accurate information :smallsmile:

Hey, no worries! I'm glad to be of help! :smallsmile:

I'll be the first to admit this: I'm lazy, I really am... but thanks, you guys have been some SERIOUS help to me constructing... Well... Can I say this is my handbook now? :smallconfused: I mean LB did start it, I just wanna finish it...

To tell you the truth, you are more open-minded than LB, and has already added more information from other sources than he did in his thread. Very soon, your handbook will have completely detached from the original source, as you will be adding even more information and reorganizing the presentation. Yes, I think this is your handbook, and will become even more so :smallsmile: You might want to rename it, though :smallbiggrin:

Making this more user friendly is at the top of my list man, with that update I'll be adding citation of course, and other such notes, list build variations. Honestly? As a Mystic Theurge I am completely fine in playing a Cleric/3 Wizard/3 Mystic theurge/10. I am however currently looking into methods to allow for multiple Spellcasting. I recall reading somewhere a trick that allows you to have multiple Schisms up, so if you could cite or help me find tricks that will help me allow a caster to shoot off multiple spells in a round.

Hmmm, to tell you the truth, all I could think of was DMM: Quicken, Schism and Time Stop. And of course, 3.0 Haste (read: Shapechange into Choker :smallbiggrin:). I'll see if I can find other methods, though :smallsmile:

Good recommendation for color coordination. It'll take me a while to adjust it so be patient.

Again, I'm glad to be of help :smallwink:

Now, onto other points:

On Tainted Scholar: you might want to keep the last post (the one you talk about shivers :smallsmile:) for "dirty tricks". Every information available should be presented - even if with a "warning" attached to it, discouraging its use!

On Dragon Magazine 325: it might be a nice idea to make a quick presentation of this minibible of theurgy! Every theurge-to-be should try and get a hold of it, it is really helpful for the archetype. (Btw, if you need to find it, the article is called "A Surge of Theurgy", and it's on pages 60-62).

On Dragonlance - Legend of the Twins: it might also be useful mentioning the feats "Academic Priest" and "Dynamic Priest" from said book. They are not perfect (save DCs are still tied to the original ability), but might help making a build more SAD - specially if the divine side won't be used for casting spells which allow saves. The TN build I posted could be tied entirely off Int with Academic Priest, for example :smallsmile:

On superscript: Awesome, I had no idea you could make superscript like this! This will be even better for books sources! =D

Arcanist

2012-06-22, 09:48 PM

Hey, no worries! I'm glad to be of help! :smallsmile:

To tell you the truth, you are more open-minded than LB, and has already added more information from other sources than he did in his thread. Very soon, your handbook will have completely detached from the original source, as you will be adding even more information and reorganizing the presentation. Yes, I think this is your handbook, and will become even more so :smallsmile: You might want to rename it, though :smallbiggrin:

I must admit as well. This is my first handbook, I'm nervous as all hell. I'm taking note on every little piece of information I can get my little hands on pertaining to Theurgy. I have to be open minded on EVERYONE opinion because ultimately: I don't know everything so yeah... :smallredface:

Hmmm, to tell you the truth, all I could think of was DMM: Quicken, Schism and Time Stop. And of course, 3.0 Haste (read: Shapechange into Choker :smallbiggrin:). I'll see if I can find other methods, though :smallsmile:

Shapechanging into a Dire Tortoise forever and just surprise round and then pop into Spell shenanigans Schism -> DMM: Quickened Time Stop > Godhood :smalltongue: that is definitely one of my favorite spell combos, it is legitimately one of the few reasons I take Delay Spell...

On Tainted Scholar: you might want to keep the last post (the one you talk about shivers :smallsmile:) for "dirty tricks". Every information available should be presented - even if with a "warning" attached to it, discouraging its use!

Note: When using this build it is recommended you:

1.Sleep with 1 eye open at all times.
2.Wear a helmet at all times.
3.Destroy all of your DM's DMG.
4.Take "Dodge" to better increase your odds at avoiding a DMG being tossed at you.
:smalltongue:

On Dragon Magazine 325: it might be a nice idea to make a quick presentation of this minibible of theurgy! Every theurge-to-be should try and get a hold of it, it is really helpful for the archetype. (Btw, if you need to find it, the article is called "A Surge of Theurgy", and it's on pages 60-62).

I'm going to organize the feats from that section into a minibible to be placed on the handbook. :smallsmile:

On Dragonlance - Legend of the Twins: it might also be useful mentioning the feats "Academic Priest" and "Dynamic Priest" from said book. They are not perfect (save DCs are still tied to the original ability), but might help making a build more SAD - specially if the divine side won't be used for casting spells which allow saves. The TN build I posted, for example, could be tied entirely off Int with Academic Priest, for example :smallsmile:

DOH! I didn't know where they were so I couldn't cite the source. Thanks :smallcool:

On superscript: Awesome, I had no idea you could make superscript like this!

Superscript is a good way to place details on feats and builds and such.

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-06-22, 09:54 PM

A cute little theurge build to share with the class:

Dread Necro/Cleric1/UrPriest1/True Necromancer

If you can get Catalogues of Enlightenment to get the Death domain prereq settled, you can skip the Cleric dip and get double 9's.

As it stands, with Southern magician or Alternative Spell Source, the Dread Necro can qualify for True Necro by itself, if you can blow a feat on the domain prereq. However, that wouldn't be any fun at all, and UrPriest syncs up SO well with the build that it would be a shame to not invite it to the party. The upside is a permanent aura of desecration to make your undead horde tougher. You can also cast Desecrate from UrPriest for minion creation.

At first, this doesn't really seem like a flexible build... and you're right, it's not nearly as flexible as, say, wiz/clr/MT/Legacy Champion. However, you can either build him into a negative level tossing version of a Mailman, AND a minionmancer with statically relevant pets (UrPriest lets you grab Animate Dread Warrior without having to blow a class ability on it, which is pretty much 'that Ubercharger attacking us? It's now my pet. Only now it's even stronger because I made it, and it blows up in an area effect when it dies, which only heals the rest of my pets at the same time'. At the same time. So yea... it's kinda fun.

Also, there's a cute little ACF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm)By itself? Not too strong, in fact many consider it to be strictly weaker. However, when you consider all the ways of adding domains onto your cleric, it can effectively turns you into Schroedinger's Cleric, since it adds all domain spells into Spells Known. This also means you can cast them more than once per day. Great when paired with Cloistered, and particularly with Pantheon shenanigans.

Thrice Dead Cat

2012-06-22, 10:12 PM

Without Southern Magician or Alternative Source Spell, I'm not seeing how Dread Necromancer can hit double 9s with that cleric dip, Shneeky. That said, I do like for just how damned thematic it is on an "ex"-cleric.

Arcanist

2012-06-22, 10:18 PM

A cute little theurge build to share with the class:

Dread Necro/Cleric1/UrPriest1/True Necromancer

If you can get Catalogues of Enlightenment to get the Death domain prereq settled, you can skip the Cleric dip and get double 9's.

... *Does Math* Carry the infinity... Damn... Your build is looking like

Shneekey, The Lost:
Dread Necromancer/4 Cleric (Trickery/nobody cares)/1 Ur-Priest/2 True Necromancer/13

Arcane: 15 (7th)
Divine: 27 (9th)

As it stands, with Southern magician or Alternative Spell Source, the Dread Necro can qualify for True Necro by itself, if you can blow a feat on the domain prereq. However, that wouldn't be any fun at all, and UrPriest syncs up SO well with the build that it would be a shame to not invite it to the party. The upside is a permanent aura of desecration to make your undead horde tougher. You can also cast Desecrate from UrPriest for minion creation.

At first, this doesn't really seem like a flexible build... and you're right, it's not nearly as flexible as, say, wiz/clr/MT/Legacy Champion. However, you can either build him into a negative level tossing version of a Mailman, AND a minionmancer with statically relevant pets (UrPriest lets you grab Animate Dread Warrior without having to blow a class ability on it, which is pretty much 'that Ubercharger attacking us? It's now my pet. Only now it's even stronger because I made it, and it blows up in an area effect when it dies, which only heals the rest of my pets at the same time'. At the same time. So yea... it's kinda fun.

So we're chalking this up as a Minionmancer? It can do so much more man... However feats are limited so go with what you know will rule the world... When I see builds that use True Necromancers I think to myself "K was wrong..."

Also, there's a cute little ACF (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm)By itself? Not too strong, in fact many consider it to be strictly weaker. However, when you consider all the ways of adding domains onto your cleric, it can effectively turns you into Schroedinger's Cleric, since it adds all domain spells into Spells Known. This also means you can cast them more than once per day. Great when paired with Cloistered, and particularly with Pantheon shenanigans.

I should make note of that, thanks :smallsmile:

eggs

2012-06-22, 10:49 PM

Arcanist

2012-06-22, 10:56 PM

Looking back at that last post, I didn't mean to sound so harsh. :smallredface:

But thanks for going back with some of the information for players who don't already know what's going on. This looks like it could be shaping up to be a useful resource!

Lol, it wasn't to harsh, it was an eye opener I guess... I still have some stuff to edit into the handbook but yeah that is also what I'm hoping for as well...

Arcanist

2012-06-24, 08:27 PM

I'm looking for a chart or any form of information that actually compares Magic to Psionics effectively. I'm embarrassed to actually say this is for my handbook :smallredface: but I want to know that if you are going for a Expanded core only Cerebremancer/Psychic Theurge which is best to actually try go for dual 9's.

I understand that even with access to only 7th level Psionics you are still pretty damn strong having access to powers like Hustle and Schism which can help you overcome your greatest weakness of only being able to cast/manifest 1-2 powers in a single round. However with Magic you also have access to all that saucy magic. Since I am however DEEPLY biased on this subject I don't actually trust myself to make a solid and fair judgement.

As for multicasting as a Psionic Theurge. I'm seeing Quicken Power/Spell while having Schism up and then taking your standard to cast another spell... But that is only 4 spells/powers used in the same round. I know for a fact that you can get even more.

I'm thinking of adding the Invocation classes to the list after I get a better gaze on Invocations. :smallsmile:

Psyren

2012-06-24, 08:56 PM

The thing to remember about Psionics is that power levels don't mean as much to the character's limits as spell levels do. If your ML is high enough, some first-level powers become on par with 9ths, e.g. Astral Construct IX can compete with SMIX (at least physically.) So even if the highest power level I have access to is 7th, I can still fire off powers that can at least compete with 9ths (minus the campaign-ending stuff like Wish or Gate) so long as my ML is at least 17. (Before items, Wiz 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/{arcane} +4 gets to ML 13, and Practiced Manifester gets this up to ML 17.)

The same is true of metapsionics - for example, whereas with metamagic I would need a 9th-level slot for a Twinned Empowered Lightning Bolt, with metapsionics I can fire off an Augmented Twinned Empowered Energy Bolt while again only having access to 7ths. (Though I could do this less often, needing foci to do it regularly.)

This is the second reason why the psionic theurges are so powerful. (the first reason of course is action economy - psionics can generate more actions to use all those spells/powers than a pure caster theurge can.) And adding in CL increases/cost reducers makes this even deadlier, because psionic powers are typically uncapped (unlike magic.) In my Lightning Bolt example above, the highest base damage that spell can get to is 10d6, but the Energy Bolt power can get as high as you can find ways to raise your ML.

But again, your best ways to use a psionic-casting theurge are:

1) Rely on psionic tricks to break action economy, feeding the extra actions to your spellcasting side;
2) Rely on your psionics to cover gaps in your arsenal. (e.g. I banned evocation; my psionic side knows some handy PK powers to blast with - or I banned abjuration, my psionic side can cover my non-illusion defensive buffs.)

The synergy goes beyond just double-dipping your casting stat :smallsmile:

Flickerdart

2012-06-24, 09:08 PM

Except for a handful of unique powers, magic is vastly superior to psionics power-wise. I'd say that divine spells aren't as good, but the good divine caster classes get the whole "prepared from all the spells" thing that makes them win out anyway.

Arcanist

2012-06-24, 09:13 PM

=>Psyren

The thing to remember about Psionics is that power levels don't mean as much to the character's limits as spell levels do. If your ML is high enough, some first-level powers become on par with 9ths, e.g. Astral Construct IX can compete with SMIX (at least physically.) So even if the highest power level I have access to is 7th, I can still fire off powers that can at least compete with 9ths (minus the campaign-ending stuff like Wish or Gate) so long as my ML is at least 17. (Before items, Wiz 3/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 10/{arcane} +4 gets to ML 13, and Practiced Manifester gets this up to ML 17.)

I see, so with Psionics it matters less about actually having access to 9th it matters more about having a high enough manifester level to perform augmentation. Your limited list should mostly be filled with powers that can be augmented and used at effectively any level. Interesting... The Psi-Spell feat Dual-Plane Summons allows you to apply the Astral Construct Menu options to your Summon Monsters.

The same is true of metapsionics - for example, whereas with metamagic I would need a 9th-level slot for a Twinned Empowered Lightning Bolt, with metapsionics I can fire off an Augmented Twinned Empowered Energy Bolt while again only having access to 7ths. (Though I could do this less often, needing foci to do it regularly.)

Thats actually pretty awesome. You can effectively have access to 9th level powers without actually having a natural manifester level of 17 :smalltongue: Not to bad...

This is the second reason why the psionic theurges are so powerful. (the first reason of course is action economy - psionics can generate more actions to use all those spells/powers than a pure caster theurge can.) And adding in CL increases/cost reducers makes this even deadlier, because psionic powers are typically uncapped (unlike magic.) In my Lightning Bolt example above, the highest base damage that spell can get to is 10d6, but the Energy Bolt power can get as high as you can find ways to raise your ML.

I see, very good trait to note: Augmentation powers are you're best friend when going for an Arcane/Psionic, However I'd like to believe it is common sense but I'll add it in as well.

But again, your best ways to use a psionic-casting theurge are:

1) Rely on psionic tricks to break action economy, feeding the extra actions to your spellcasting side;
2) Rely on your psionics to cover gaps in your arsenal. (e.g. I banned evocation; my psionic side knows some handy PK powers to blast with - or I banned abjuration, my psionic side can cover my non-illusion defensive buffs.)

The synergy goes beyond just double-dipping your casting stat :smallsmile:

Wait, explain that again? I understand breaking the action economy but I'm curious what PK powers Psionics naturally gain while still specializing in the more commonly selected Discipline of Telepathy.

Except for a handful of unique powers, magic is vastly superior to psionics power-wise. I'd say that divine spells aren't as good, but the good divine caster classes get the whole "prepared from all the spells" thing that makes them win out anyway.

Lol, I liked the Archivist reference :smalltongue: Theurging with an Archivist can hardly seem fair with the Spell Compendium on the table and even without it you are still capable of providing a little more magic then the Wizard. If you perform the reasonable adjustment to Spell Mastery then you've pretty much stolen the Wizard's entire title. Welcome to the wonderful world of Schrodinger's Archivist. :smallsmile:

eggs

2012-06-24, 09:16 PM

As for multicasting as a Psionic Theurge. I'm seeing Quicken Power/Spell while having Schism up and then taking your standard to cast another spell... But that is only 4 spells/powers used in the same round. I know for a fact that you can get even more.
Abuse of pretty much any combination of Synchronicity, Linked Power, Twin Power. Anticipatory Strike, Temporal Acceleration and Metamorphic Transfer (anything with multiple actions in a round) can crank that way up, without breaking level 6 powers known.

And this is another place Ardents excel, due to the ridiculously breakable Dominant Ideal ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a). Ardent 10/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8 with Dominant ideal and Practiced Manifester learns 9th level powers just as quickly as a Wizard (if not faster, with other CL boosts) and can link, quicken and twin powers as long as it likes [and PP permit] without ever having to stop to recover psionic focus.

Psyren

2012-06-24, 09:26 PM

Wait, explain that again? I understand breaking the action economy but I'm curious what PK powers Psionics naturally gain while still specializing in the more commonly selected Discipline of Telepathy.

There are tons of blasting powers on the general list (i.e. freely available to Psions of every discipline.) The one I mentioned in my example, Energy Bolt, is one of them; in other words, a Telepath could learn it just as easily as a Nomad.

You can identify whether a powerful is general or specific by looking at its entry - if it says "Psion/Wilder X" then it's on the general list. If it instead says "Kineticist X" or "Telepath X" then it is restricted to those specializations of psion, and you would need Expanded Knowledge or a similar method to learn it if your own discipline choice does not match.

Arcanist

2012-06-24, 09:28 PM

Abuse of pretty much any combination of Synchronicity, Linked Power, Twin Power. Anticipatory Strike, Temporal Acceleration and Metamorphic Transfer (anything with multiple actions in a round) can crank that way up, without breaking level 6 powers known.

Interesting but what is more fascinating is what comes next.

And this is another place Ardents excel, due to the ridiculously breakable Dominant Ideal ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a). Ardent 10/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8 with Dominant ideal and Practiced Manifester learns 9th level powers just as quickly as a Wizard (if not faster, with other CL boosts) and can link, quicken and twin powers as long as it likes without ever having to stop to recover psionic focus.

I had never figured this combination possible (mostly because I was still reading the other ACF presented in Mind's Eye) I lost count but how many powers/spells can you get off with Synchronicity, Linked Power, Twin Power. Anticipatory Strike, Temporal Acceleration and Metamorphic Transfer

I'll be searching around for those powers and feats. :smallsmile:

eggs

2012-06-24, 11:11 PM

I had never figured this combination possible (mostly because I was still reading the other ACF presented in Mind's Eye) I lost count but how many powers/spells can you get off with Synchronicity, Linked Power, Twin Power. Anticipatory Strike, Temporal Acceleration and Metamorphic Transfer
That's going to depend on the build. Let's say:
Human Ardent 10/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8
Feats: H:Keeper of the Forbidden Lore*, 1:Overchannel, 3:Spell Focus: Evil*, OH:Iron Will*, 6:Practiced Manifester, 9:Linked Power, 12:Twin Power, 15:Metamorphic Transfer, 18:Psionic Meditation
ACFs (Substitute Power:Synchronicity for Deceleration, Dominant Ideal:Time)
Mantles: Time, Freedom, Natural World, whatever
*for Ur-Priest prereqs

Round 1:
Swift: Twinned Temporal Acceleration (Overchanneled by for 2x Augment) linked to Synchronicity (23 PP total)
Standard: Twinned Synchronicity linked to Metamorphosis (10 PP total)
Temporal Acceleration x2: 6 rounds of:
Hustle linked to Synchronicity, regain focus, Twinned Synchronicity linked to Synchronicity x2 (14 PP total)

Which leaves 39 Standard actions (from all the various synchronicities) generated in 1 turn for 117 PP (enough to reliably use ~3/day): 26 available immediately and 13 that require waiting a turn - way more than an Ur-Priest would need to win a fight.

But this is one of those places that needs a tag that almost everything involved is frequently banned or limited, and for good reason.

Arcanist

2012-06-25, 12:17 AM

=>eggs

That's going to depend on the build. Let's say:
Human Ardent 10/Ur-Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 8
Feats: H:Keeper of the Forbidden Lore*, 1:Overchannel, 3:Spell Focus: Evil*, OH:Iron Will*, 6:Practiced Manifester, 9:Linked Power, 12:Twin Power, 15:Metamorphic Transfer, 18:Psionic Meditation
ACFs (Substitute Power:Synchronicity for Deceleration, Dominant Ideal:Time)
Mantles: Time, Freedom, Natural World, whatever
*for Ur-Priest prereqs

Round 1:
Swift: Twinned Temporal Acceleration (Overchanneled by for 2x Augment) linked to Synchronicity (23 PP total)
Standard: Twinned Synchronicity linked to Metamorphosis (10 PP total)
Temporal Acceleration x2: 6 rounds of:
Hustle linked to Synchronicity, regain focus, Twinned Synchronicity linked to Synchronicity x2 (14 PP total)

Which leaves 39 Standard actions (from all the various synchronicities) generated in 1 turn for 117 PP (enough to reliably use ~3/day): 26 available immediately and 13 that require waiting a turn - way more than an Ur-Priest would need to win a fight.

But this is one of those places that needs a tag that almost everything involved is frequently banned or limited, and for good reason.

Can this be done as anything else besides a Psionic Theurge? :smallconfused:

Psyren

2012-06-25, 12:29 AM

=>eggs

Can this be done as anything else besides a Psionic Theurge? :smallconfused:

Any manifester with enough PP and high enough power access can do it. It's easiest with Ardent thanks to Dominant Ideal (no need to blow move actions refocusing) but there's nothing in that combo that's class-specific.

It simply works best for a theurge because, again, you can focus the psionic side on churning out standard actions and then have a whole separate set of resources (i.e. your spells) to use them on. Otherwise you'd spend half your PP getting the combo going and the other half actually firing off attack spells/summons etc.

Arcanist

2012-06-25, 12:36 AM

Any manifester with enough PP and high enough power access can do it. It's easiest with Ardent thanks to Dominant Ideal (no need to blow move actions refocusing) but there's nothing in that combo that's class-specific.

It simply works best for a theurge because, again, you can focus the psionic side on churning out standard actions and then have a whole separate set of resources (i.e. your spells) to use them on. Otherwise you'd spend half your PP getting the combo going and the other half actually firing off attack spells/summons etc.

I see, but I'm asking if there is a combo that can be done similar to this in the form of an Arcane/Divine theurge :smallredface: I understand the action economy can be ripped a new ******* with Psionics/Divine but what can be done with Arcane/Divine? Or any Theurgic combination?

On that note: Would you recommend anything beyond the Ur-Lock for a Warlock build? For the Ur-Priest would devoting yourself to an Elder Evil be a problem at all? :smallconfused:

Psyren

2012-06-25, 01:13 AM

I see, but I'm asking if there is a combo that can be done similar to this in the form of an Arcane/Divine theurge :smallredface: I understand the action economy can be ripped a new ******* with Psionics/Divine but what can be done with Arcane/Divine? Or any Theurgic combination?

I honestly can't think of much action abuse spell-wise. The Celerity line exists but isn't very iterative. What little metamagic affects the economy is very costly. Summons give a caster more actions, but are more limited in terms of which actions he/she gets more of, as well as the effectiveness of those actions (since summons are typically weaker than encounters at a given level.)

Then there is ability synergy - there is a manifesting class for every attribute, making double-dipping very easy. The Ardent/Ur-Priest build given for instance can focus every single resource on pumping Wis, squeezing the maximum benefit out of both sides. This is harder for traditional magic/magic theurges, particularly for Wis-based casters, who unlike the other two attributes are almost always divine.

On that note: Would you recommend anything beyond the Ur-Lock for a Warlock build? For the Ur-Priest would devoting yourself to an Elder Evil be a problem at all? :smallconfused:

1) Yes, in fact; another good base for the Eldritch Disciple is the Divine Crusader, another fast-progression divine class. You have less spells to choose from (i.e. one domain, unless you can get more) but they are Charisma-based, which gives you lots of synergy. (DCs for your invocations and spells, bonus spells for your Crusader, and of course, turning attempts for your Gifts.) Better still, you no longer have to be evil, allowing you to make a healbot Disciple that zaps the party with chained Healing Blasts.) And of course, you get both 9ths and Darks, provided you can swing the BAB requirement early enough.

2) For the Elder Evil I couldn't tell you, I don't know enough about them. Ur-Priest fluff is fairly mutable so long as you don't get divine casting from anywhere else.

eggs

2012-06-25, 01:38 AM

Can this be done as anything else besides a Psionic Theurge? :smallconfused:
Kind of.

There are two things that make that tear things apart like that - Ardent's Dominant Ideal disregards one of the big rules of psionics, where metapsionic feats require burning psionic focus, and Synchronicity is just extra actions when mixed with Linked/Quicken/Twin power.

The Synchronicity part is pretty easily available to any psionic character - with Linked Power, it's an extra action for 1 PP. But this is normally somewhat restrained by the need to renew psionic focus for every Linking.

And Dominant Ideal on its own is still a very powerful ability - generally speaking, it will make a psionic character drastically better at whatever its chosen mantle does than other builds can be.

Dominant Ideal is also the limiting aspect - it requires 10 levels in Ardent, which would make it tricky for most dual-threat types. Some other approaches like Totemist 2/Ardent 10/Soul Manifester 8 and probably some tricksy Sublime Chord builds could work.

Arcanist

2012-06-25, 01:38 AM

=>Psyren

I honestly can't think of much action abuse spell-wise. The Celerity line exists but isn't very iterative. What little metamagic affects the economy is very costly. Summons give a caster more actions, but are more limited in terms of which actions he/she gets more of, as well as the effectiveness of those actions (since summons are typically weaker than encounters at a given level.)

Celerity is a good line of spells however the most common spell-combo for that would be Celerity > Time stop > Delay bomb/Self Buff however I can't very well think of anything beyond that... I must admit however that Psionic Theurges have much more control over the action economy then any other variant of Theurges.

Then there is ability synergy - there is a manifesting class for every attribute, making double-dipping very easy. The Ardent/Ur-Priest build given for instance can focus every single resource on pumping Wis, squeezing the maximum benefit out of both sides. This is harder for traditional magic/magic theurges, particularly for Wis-based casters, who unlike the other two attributes are almost always divine.

Very true. Psionics are a very good when added to any theurges due to flexibility, synergy, and other such benefits.

1) Yes, in fact; another good base for the Eldritch Disciple is the Divine Crusader, another fast-progression divine class. You have less spells to choose from (i.e. one domain, unless you can get more) but they are Charisma-based, which gives you lots of synergy. (DCs for your invocations and spells, bonus spells for your Crusader, and of course, turning attempts for your Gifts.) Better still, you no longer have to be evil, allowing you to make a healbot Disciple that zaps the party with chained Healing Blasts.) And of course, you get both 9ths and Darks, provided you can swing the BAB requirement early enough.

I've listed the Divine Crusader as a good albeit limited fast progression divine class. I should make note of its flexibility with Invocation/Divine Theurges. The most basic of these examples being Warlock/10 Divine Crusader/2 Eldritch Disciple/8. Very thematic might I add... Builds like that are legitimately the easiest to Theurge. Base Caster/9-10 Fast Progression/2 Theurge 8-9.

2) For the Elder Evil I couldn't tell you, I don't know enough about them. Ur-Priest fluff is fairly mutable so long as you don't get divine casting from anywhere else.

I heard that you could but I'm a little sketchy on the details.

eggs

2012-06-25, 01:42 AM

Arcanist

2012-06-25, 01:55 AM

Or if you're comparing Arcane/Divine, something like Sorcerer 5/War Weaver 5/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 9 could also get pretty crazy in the same sort of way. (Though with a bit more trickery required and a bit more in terms of ability demands.)

But... You... You don't qualify? What sorcery is this? So how does War Weaver destroy the action economy? I've never really taken a gaze at the class.

Psyren

2012-06-25, 02:26 AM

But... You... You don't qualify? What sorcery is this? So how does War Weaver destroy the action economy? I've never really taken a gaze at the class.

War Weaver effectively gives you extra actions by letting you cast multiple buffs at once, as well as target the entire party with single-target buffs. They form a "tapestry" (akin to a Vitalist's collective or network) of their party members and can store spells in this tapestry for later use. You can throw several common buffs into the tapestry before a fight, and cast them all at once on multiple targets with a single move action. (e.g. you could throw Cat's Grace, Stoneskin and Protection from Energy into your tapestry, activate it once combat starts, and every party member would get the benefits of all three spells at once.)

eggs

2012-06-25, 02:29 AM

But... You... You don't qualify? What sorcery is this? So how does War Weaver destroy the action economy? I've never really taken a gaze at the class.
That's where the tricksiness comes in.
Sorcerer 4 with Enlarge and Sanctum Spell qualifies for War Weaver, add Ur-Priest 1 and it qualifies for MT.

War Weaver's MO is casting 4 spells level 5 or lower on itself and all allies as one move action. With a Major Bloodline, that jumps up to 7 level 8 or lower spells in that same move action (Bloodlines can be dirty and degenerate, but when comparing to Synchronicity abusers, that's kind of a given). Counting the way Weave mechanics effectively multiply the number of single-target buffs a War Weaver casts, the total adds up fast.

And Sorcerer gets all sorts of its own tricks to blast more spells out at a time - the Arcane Fusions, Arcane Spellsurge, Celerity and its Greater version, Time Stop/Shapechange (or Polymorph+Assume Supernatural Ability), Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability, Contingency, as well as all the ways that it can just add more characters to the field to multiply its own output (Summons and Bindings, etc).

Almost all the full spellcasters have ways of tearing the game in half in just about any way they like. Personally, I love Psychic Theurges, but I don't think they have a commanding advantage over other combinations.

Arcanist

2012-06-25, 02:43 AM

=>Psyren

War Weaver effectively gives you extra actions by letting you cast multiple buffs at once, as well as target the entire party with single-target buffs. They form a "tapestry" (akin to a Vitalist's collective or network) of their party members and can store spells in this tapestry for later use. You can throw several common buffs into the tapestry before a fight, and cast them all at once on multiple targets with a single move action. (e.g. you could throw Cat's Grace, Stoneskin and Protection from Energy into your tapestry, activate it once combat starts, and every party member would get the benefits of all three spells at once.)

That is actually really good way to uber-buff the party, is it possible to place divine spells into the tapestry? :smallconfused: Does the tapestry differentiate between Divine and Arcane? :smallconfused:

=>eggs

That's where the tricksiness comes in.
Sorcerer 4 with Enlarge and Sanctum Spell qualifies for War Weaver, add Ur-Priest 1 and it qualifies for MT.

War Weaver's MO is casting 4 spells level 5 or lower on itself and all allies as one move action. With a Major Bloodline, that jumps up to 7 level 8 or lower spells in that same move action (Bloodlines can be dirty and degenerate, but when comparing to Synchronicity abusers, that's kind of a given). Counting the way Weave mechanics effectively multiply the number of single-target buffs a War Weaver casts, the total adds up fast.

And Sorcerer gets all sorts of its own tricks to blast more spells out at a time - the Arcane Fusions, Arcane Spellsurge, Celerity and its Greater version, Time Stop/Shapechange (or Polymorph+Assume Supernatural Ability), Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability, Contingency, as well as all the ways that it can just add more characters to the field to multiply its own output (Summons and Bindings, etc).

Almost all the full spellcasters have ways of tearing the game in half in just about any way they like. Personally, I love Psychic Theurges, but I don't think they have a commanding advantage over other combinations.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m644k0FBiY1rxnbwuo1_250.gif

Seriously, I feel really stupid for not adding Sanctum Spell to the early entry tricks :smalltongue:

Great show gents :smallcool:

Thrice Dead Cat

2012-06-25, 03:45 AM

In regards to War Weaver: The limitation's are basically any spell you could throw on another, living person (other than "personal" spells). It's up to a cap of your War Weaver level (5, 6 with Sanctum Spell), but it doesn't care if that spell is arcane or divine. The draw for a Theurge would be to use Divine Crusader (CHA SAD with Sorcerer, but BAB and "spells known" issues) or Ur-Priest (already mentioned).

For the latter, things like (Lesser) Vigor become amazingly cost effective after a fight. Our Hypothetical Sorcerer 5/War Weaver 5/Ur-Priest 1 could at level 11 store lesser vigor and four other spells of his choice into his weave and pop it as a move action at the start of the fight before going back and using whatever spells he knows to his hearts content.

Garwain

2012-06-25, 07:03 AM

I never bothered with theurges because I figured that with all the extra spells, a theurge can't cast more of then per round. On top of that, they are lower in level and/or DC.
Reading the psion/wizard theurge has me intrigued however. Why not use the psychic side to fuel the arcane side with standard actions? Can
I guess with temporal acceleration linked to synchonicity and hustle, you can keep up a second standard action each turn? Combine it with pp recovery trick and you are a wizard with 2 standard action per turn? I'm not too familiar with psionics, but that would be a very good reason to sacrifice some arcane spellcasting levels.

Psyren

2012-06-25, 07:18 AM

Aeryr

2012-06-25, 08:25 AM

While it lacks the domain options of the cleric, it doubles up the power of your buff spells via the companion.

This cannot be stressed enough. The companion familiar is just awesome.

On the other hand since people are advising on spells. I have to remark battletide from PGtF, that lets you quicken for free low level spells with a duration of 1/round level

dextercorvia

2012-06-25, 04:50 PM

I honestly can't think of much action abuse spell-wise. The Celerity line exists but isn't very iterative. What little metamagic affects the economy is very costly.

The best form of daze immunity is a paladin spell. So a ArchWiz can cast twinned repeating Celerities for 3-5 standard actions per turn. Combine with DLCS Sun Domain ability and you can use DMM to persist Favor of the Martyr at the same time as you are Arcane Thesising your Celerity to a zero cost.

sreservoir

2012-06-25, 05:47 PM

The best form of daze immunity is a paladin spell. So a ArchWiz can cast twinned repeating Celerities for 3-5 standard actions per turn. Combine with DLCS Sun Domain ability and you can use DMM to persist Favor of the Martyr at the same time as you are Arcane Thesising your Celerity to a zero cost.

... you'd pretty much need paladin (which sucks), archivist (which is okay), or an add any spell to list ability (recaster, wyrm wizard, argued readings of extra spell and master specialist) to get favor of the martyr. you'd need the paladin or the archivist for divine to be able to DMM persist, too.

(naenhoon illumian with wyrm wizard, perhaps?)

Thrice Dead Cat

2012-06-25, 06:00 PM

... you'd pretty much need paladin (which sucks), archivist (which is okay), or an add any spell to list ability (recaster, wyrm wizard, argued readings of extra spell and master specialist) to get favor of the martyr. you'd need the paladin or the archivist for divine to be able to DMM persist, too.

(naenhoon illumian with wyrm wizard, perhaps?)

My money's on the archivist myself. That or some weird pseudo-gish prestige paladin. Easiest way I could see it would probably involve Sanctum Spell, going Wizard 2/Archivist 1/Mystic Theurge 6/Prestige Paladin 1/MT+4, grabbing Favor of the Martyr as an "in house" known archivist spell and going from there.

Alternatively, you could slap prestige paladin onto a Battle Sorcerer/Divine Crusader mix for an unconventional Sorcadin.

dextercorvia

2012-06-25, 06:48 PM

dextercorvia

2012-06-25, 06:49 PM

My money's on the archivist myself. That or some weird pseudo-gish prestige paladin. Easiest way I could see it would probably involve Sanctum Spell, going Wizard 2/Archivist 1/Mystic Theurge 6/Prestige Paladin 1/MT+4, grabbing Favor of the Martyr as an "in house" known archivist spell and going from there.

Alternatively, you could slap prestige paladin onto a Battle Sorcerer/Divine Crusader mix for an unconventional Sorcadin.

You don't need Prestige Paladin if you start as an Archivist.

Arcanist

2012-06-25, 06:55 PM

The best form of daze immunity is a paladin spell. So a ArchWiz can cast twinned repeating Celerities for 3-5 standard actions per turn. Combine with DLCS Sun Domain ability and you can use DMM to persist Favor of the Martyr at the same time as you are Arcane Thesising your Celerity to a zero cost.

Interesting, Very good Arcane/Divine Source of Action economy destruction. :smallamused:

Arcane Thesis, Easy Metamagic, any other metamagic reductions? :smallconfused:

dextercorvia

2012-06-25, 06:58 PM

Interesting, Very good Arcane/Divine Source of Action economy destruction. :smallamused:

Arcane Thesis, Easy Metamagic, any other metamagic reductions? :smallconfused:

You can just apply +0 metas to the thesised Celerity. Things like invisible, sanctum, cooperative. There is also Metamagic School Focus, and Practical Metamagic (which takes a bit of work, but you can qualify for it.

I'll write this guy up later if you want to include it.

Arcanist

2012-06-25, 07:40 PM

You can just apply +0 metas to the thesised Celerity. Things like invisible, sanctum, cooperative. There is also Metamagic School Focus, and Practical Metamagic (which takes a bit of work, but you can qualify for it.

I'll write this guy up later if you want to include it.

Please and thank you :smallsmile: Also please list your sources used because I'd actually like to add some Metamagic shenanigans.

dextercorvia

2012-06-26, 06:30 PM

Please and thank you :smallsmile: Also please list your sources used because I'd actually like to add some Metamagic shenanigans.

Wizard2/Archivist1/MT10

Begin as a Naenhoon IllumianRoD Wizard2. You'll want two flaws for Extend Spell, and Persistant Spell. Take Sanctum Spell for your level 1 feat, and swap Scribe Scroll for a Fighter Bonus feat (Improved Initiative is fine). Take a level of Archivist at 3rd, and pick up Twin Spell. Now you can go into Mystic Theurge for 10 levels. At 6 you grab Planar Touchstone:Catalogs of EnlightenmentPlH for the DCLS Sun Domain. At 9 you pick up Arcane ThesisPHBII: Celerity. Somewhere before level 9 you should also be able to afford 2 scrolls each of Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos. Shuffle away Scribe Scroll for Invisible Spell, and Improved Initiative for Easy MetamagicDrag325:Twin.

You can now Persist Favor of the MartyrSpC in the morning using the Naenhoon ability and the Turn attempts from the Sun domain. (NightsticksLM and a Reliquary Holy SymbolCC will help if you need more turn attempts). This makes you immune to Daze. You can cast a Twinned Celerity from a fourth level slot by taking advantage of Arcane Thesis, Easy Metamagic and the +0 metamagics Invisible and Sanctum Spell.

This will give you two additional standard actions in exchange for an immediate action and a 4th level slot.

At 12, double your fun by taking Repeat Spell. You can get 2 out of turn, and then 2 more on your next turn.

I'll add sources later. Edit: I think that is all of the unclear ones. I forget exactly where Invisible Spell is. I think it is one of the hard to find Eberron books like SoS.

Arcanist

2012-06-26, 09:25 PM

Wizard2/Archivist1/MT10

Begin as a Naenhoon Illumian Wizard2. You'll want two flaws for Extend Spell, and Persistant Spell. Take Sanctum Spell for you level 1 feat, and swap Scribe Scroll for a Fighter Bonus feat (Improved Initiative is fine). Take a level of Archivist at 3rd, and pick up Twin Spell. Now you can go into Mystic Theurge for 10 levels. At 6 you grab Planar Touchstone:Catalogs of Enlightenment for the DCLS Sun Domain. At 9 you pick up Arcane Thesis: Celerity. Somewhere before level 9 you should also be able to afford 2 scrolls each of Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos. Shuffle away Scribe Scroll for Invisible Spell, and Improved Initiative for Easy Metamagic:Twin.

You can now Persist Favor of the Martyr in the morning using the Naenhoon ability and the Turn attempts from the Sun domain. (Nightsticks and a Reliquary Holy symbol will help if you need more turn attempts). This makes you immune to Daze. You can cast a Twinned Celerity from a fourth level slot by taking advantage of Arcane Thesis, Easy Metamagic and the +0 metamagics Invisible and Sanctum Spell.

This will give you two additional standard actions in exchange for an immediate action and a 4th level slot.

At 12, double your fun by taking Repeat Spell. You can get 2 out of turn, and then 2 more on your next turn.

I'll add sources later.

Awesome, I'll add the build in as I'm updating for Invocations :smallsmile:

sreservoir

2012-06-26, 09:58 PM

Wizard2/Archivist1/MT10

Begin as a Naenhoon Illumian Wizard2. You'll want two flaws for Extend Spell, and Persistant Spell. Take Sanctum Spell for you level 1 feat, and swap Scribe Scroll for a Fighter Bonus feat (Improved Initiative is fine). Take a level of Archivist at 3rd, and pick up Twin Spell. Now you can go into Mystic Theurge for 10 levels. At 6 you grab Planar Touchstone:Catalogs of Enlightenment for the DCLS Sun Domain. At 9 you pick up Arcane Thesis: Celerity. Somewhere before level 9 you should also be able to afford 2 scrolls each of Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos. Shuffle away Scribe Scroll for Invisible Spell, and Improved Initiative for Easy Metamagic:Twin.

You can now Persist Favor of the Martyr in the morning using the Naenhoon ability and the Turn attempts from the Sun domain. (Nightsticks and a Reliquary Holy symbol will help if you need more turn attempts). This makes you immune to Daze. You can cast a Twinned Celerity from a fourth level slot by taking advantage of Arcane Thesis, Easy Metamagic and the +0 metamagics Invisible and Sanctum Spell.

This will give you two additional standard actions in exchange for an immediate action and a 4th level slot.

At 12, double your fun by taking Repeat Spell. You can get 2 out of turn, and then 2 more on your next turn.

I'll add sources later.

... how are you dcfsing your scribe scroll and improved initiative when you've swapped out scribe scroll for improved initiative?

Arcanist

2012-06-26, 10:20 PM

... how are you dcfsing your scribe scroll and improved initiative when you've swapped out scribe scroll for improved initiative?

Archivist gives you Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.

dextercorvia

2012-06-27, 01:35 AM

... how are you dcfsing your scribe scroll and improved initiative when you've swapped out scribe scroll for improved initiative?

Archivist gives you Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.

This is correct. I meant to mention it.

I have updated the sources. Let me know if you need any more.

Suddo

2012-06-27, 01:43 PM

So the main problem I see, while just browsing the guide, is that you copy pasted large parts of Little Brother's guide and thus brought over a bunch of the problems from his. This was most clearly pointed out by egg who showed that the guide doesn't fit either High-OP or Low-OP well. I would personally suggest focusing on either or and not both, unless you separate them.
I mean if we want to do High-OP stuff then things like Rainbow Beguilers would be a thing (Beguiler 1 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Ardent 1 / Mystic Theurge Cerebramcer 8) and I think that most DMs would not allow it just as I think most DM don't allow Ur-Priest & Sublime Chord (at least while also targeting them with another PrC) or Dragon Magazine material. Plus it sounds like you don't know enough on Psionics to do a good Psionic Theurgeing guide though you are showing interest I might suggest making it its own handbook that is linked from this one.

Psyren

2012-06-27, 02:24 PM

dextercorvia

2012-06-27, 03:39 PM

You are missing the /quote tag at the the end of my Neraph gish/theurge.

Aeryr

2012-06-27, 03:43 PM

Beguiler 1 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Ardent 1 / Mystic Theurge 8

That's pretty darn bad and nonfuctional.

I think most DM don't allow Ur-Priest & Sublime Chord (at least while also targeting them with another PrC)

:smallconfused:

Plus it sounds like you don't know enough on Psionics

He at least uses psionic prcs in the suggested builds

Beguiler 1 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Ardent 1 / Mystic Theurge 8

Overall I think your comment is pretty harsh the hand book is just being started and it sure needs more work but it can become a useful tool if time is invested.

Larkas

2012-06-27, 03:55 PM

I disagree with both of your points Suddo. Having viable theurge builds/tactics at all op-levels is beneficial, even if the OP decides not to demarcate them along those lines.

As for the psionics stuff, it's really not that hard. There's what, 4 psionic theurges? Two of which don't even have class features, so it's just a matter of listing some synergistic powers and/or feats.

I agree with Psyren and respectfully disagree with Suddo. Besides, Arcanist has already expressed his wishes to mark the cheesiness of each option as soon as possible. I'll tell you this, though: it is very hard to make it worthwhile to be a theurge without at least a little bit of optimization, and even then, it is generally better to be a single fullcaster anyways. This handbook's quest is, I think, to make this archetype playable without a lot of power loss, and so far has performed admirably, I think :smallsmile:

Anyways, do you want me to elaborate on that True Necro build so you can add it to the guide, Arcanist? :smallredface:

Spuddles

2012-06-27, 03:59 PM

That's pretty darn bad and nonfuctional.

I dunno, spontaneous casting from beguiler and cleric spell lists as a level 27 beguiler is pretty good. Don't know what the level of Ardent is doing in there....

Suddo

2012-06-27, 04:36 PM

Overall I think your comment is pretty harsh the hand book is just being started and it sure needs more work but it can become a useful tool if time is invested.

I am but its because when Little Brother wrote this he had a very clear point of view on the subject which was high op or nothing, which although wasn't for everyone's liking was at least one view point which could easily be a disclaimer which I could kind of respect. And I don't mean to be completely a **** about it I mean Arcanist has done some great improvements I just don't know if its too big of a chunk to rip out for what I would consider an advance guide.

@Psyren: Yeah I guess you could include Psionics in this guide but I just think that its becoming too much. I mean I think this is way too broad of a subject I mean if we listed all the different variations we'd be sitting here all day.

Oh and on the Beguiler build. It spontaneously casts all cleric and beguiler spells and has a ardent backing it (not a high level on but for the sacrifice of 1 level), what so nonfuctional about it?

I'd also like to be a tad more constructive and point out that linking here (http://www.angelfire.com/pro/demon_1/prc_mind_mage.htm) might not be a good idea sense its kind of against the law if its what I think it is (something from a dragon mag).

Sorry this is a rant that follows, its about the consideration of powerlevel:
I also stand by my statement of no sane DM would allow Ur-Priests to exist they are well into the top 90% of the powerlevel of 3.5 and although not "game breaking" like other prestige classes (Illithid Savant, Tainted Scholar) it is a 99% gain for little to no sacrifice and they literally make almost any build better. So hey I want to be a Warblade become Warblade/Ur-Priest/RKV, which becomes silly. I mean it is worse than the standard "be a wizard or lose" type of theme because it is so easy to enter and keep going with a prestige class. Yes Sublime Chords are fine but once you start doing Bard 1/ Something X / Sublime Chord 1 / Prestige Y you really start getting into the same area though at least you have to sacrifice 2 levels instead of 1 and yes you are a Spontaneous Caster but still Bard 1 / Wizard 9 /Sublime Chord 2 / Ultimate Magus 8 is kind of a crazy build when you sit down and look at it. Combine them both? Bard 1/ Psionic 3 / Ur-Priest 1 / Divine Mind 5 / Sublime Chord 1 / Divine Mind 4 / Cerebramcer 5, and yes I realize all the things bad about that build but the fact is its gets silly.
And neither is addressed as a concern its just stated hey you should take these
Oh and because I was bored a list of Theurges: (And yes I realize how much I am missing.

Basics: Divine is usually be Archivist or Cleric, Arcane is usually Wizard, Psionic can be Ardent, Psionic and sometimes Wilder.
Arcane Divine
Arcane Psionic
Arcane Incarnum
Divine Incarnum
Arcane Warlock
Psionic Divine
Arcane Binder
Arcane Shadowcaster
Full Druid and Arcane (Arcane Heirphdfahd thing)
Advance:
StP Erudite instead of Arcane as any of the above
Ur-Priest instead of Divine as any of the above
Sublime Chord instead of Arcane for any of the above
Cheesy:
Rainbow Servant Beguiler/DN/Warmage as Arcane as any of the above.
Beholder Mage instead of Arcane for any of the above
Bard1 / Crusader 8 / Ur-Priest 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Mystic Theurge 9
Any other form of cheese related to basic concept of arcane or divine casters

Edit: @Spuddles: The Ardent is in there because I wanted it to be an actual Theurge build not just a Rainbow build. I'd point out more but I'm away from my books at the moment.

Aeryr

2012-06-27, 04:52 PM

It spontaneously casts all cleric and beguiler spells and has a ardent backing it (not a high level on but for the sacrifice of 1 level), what so nonfuctional about it?

The Ardent is in there because I wanted it to be an actual Theurge build not just a Rainbow build. I'd point out more but I'm away from my books at the moment.

It has just ONE Ardent level and nothing that advances Ardent manifesting. that's why I said it was pretty bad and nonfuctional as a theurge.

Also I don't think that even with rainbow servant mystic theurge would give the beguiler 2 levels per level.

Larkas

2012-06-27, 05:01 PM

@Psyren: Yeah I guess you could include Psionics in this guide but I just think that its becoming too much. I mean I think this is way too broad of a subject I mean if we listed all the different variations we'd be sitting here all day.

Yes! Ain't that a beautiful thing? :smallbiggrin:

Jokes aside, I agree that most sane DM's wouldn't, or shouldn't, allow Ur-Priest. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be mentioned. If you're playing a TO game, that may be useful information! If you're not... Well, you can build an effective theurge without any fast progression class. On Sublime Chords, I must confess that I've never ran into any problems with them, though that may be because, in the games I've played or DM'ed, they were used as Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 or, at most, Bard 10/Sublime Chord 1/Another PrC 9. Regardless, Sublime Chord tend to be a lot less degenerate than the other fast progression classes. It is one, no doubt about it, but it is merely condensing 13 levels of Wizard into a 10 level class - and coming out worse than a straight level 20 Wizard, anyways. I will give you that it should have harsher prereqs, though, to enforce a level 10 Bard entry.

Suddo

2012-06-27, 05:17 PM

I've never ran into any problems with them, though that may be because, in the games I've played or DM'ed, they were used as Bard 10/Sublime Chord 10 or, at most, Bard 10/Sublime Chord 1/Another PrC 9.

Yeah as I said if you aren't placing PrCs on Sublime Chord it becomes fine in my opinion even Ur-Priest almost become acceptable if you can't do Ur-Priest 1-2/Prc 8-9.

And on my Beguiler build, I know I messed up and said Mystic Theurge that was a typo when I do my crazy TO theurge builds I usually just write ArcPsi Theurge instead of the actual PrC so I can read it easier. But yeah the actual build is Beguiler 1 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Ardent 1 / Cerebramcer 8, which I never said it gave double progression but it does allow you to spontaneously cast all cleric spells and gives you a nice Ardent backing.

Aeryr

2012-06-27, 05:24 PM

Beguiler 1 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Ardent 1 / Cerebramcer 8.

How do you qualify for rainbow servant at level 2?

Where is Cerebramcer, and what prerequisites does it have?

Suddo

2012-06-27, 06:06 PM

How do you qualify for rainbow servant at level 2?

Where is Cerebramcer, and what prerequisites does it have?

Versatile Spellcaster shenanigans is how you qualify for Rainbow Servant @2. Depending on how you read it you can either sacrifice 4 Level 1 spells for 2 level 2 spells and turn them into a level 3 spell (this is the more questionable approach) the other is to take 2 level 1 spells and cast a level 2 spell in your Sanctum using Sanctum Spell creating a level 3 spell.

The early entry into Ardent is a little harder I'm unfortunately not as versed about Psionics but basically you want to get into Cerebremancer (sorry I mis-spelled it) you have to be able to manifest second level psionics to get in I'm looking for a trick I think Practiced Manifestor helps but I forget on how all that jazz works.

eggs

2012-06-27, 06:25 PM

Ardent's powers learned are based off ML, not class level.
4 HD+Practiced Manifester+Ardent 1 allows the ardent to learn 3rd level powers.
Expanded Knowledge might be necessary to actually learn the 2nd level power, depending on how tight the reins on chicanery are.

Spuddles

2012-06-27, 06:27 PM

Early entry into Rainbow Servant is hard to do without a way to get religion as a class skill.

Ardent + Practiced Manifester lets you qualify for Cerebremancer.

Beguiler19 + cleric spells/Ardent 13 isn't bad, if you're allowed mantle customization. Since you're pyschic, expanded knowledge and/or psychic chirgury will let you get the good stuff, like psy reform, schism, etc. on your powers known.

Aeryr

2012-06-27, 06:28 PM

Okay...

0 let's ignore that you corrected a typo with a typo

1
You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher

2 Beguilers learn spells when they get access to spells of that level. Versatile spell caster needs them to know the spells first. Either they know the spell so they are able to cast it normally or they don't so they cannot use versatile spellcaster to cast it.

3 Also you are using flaws because you are taking (at least) 3 feats at first level.

4 Heighten + Earth Sense + Earth Spell + Sanctum doesn't work either (and if you have so many feats at level 1 there is something wrong):
A sanctum spell has an effective spell level 1 higher than its normal level.

5 You rant against DMs that approve the use of Ur-Priest and you propose using "shenanigans" and tricks (that don't work), while saying that you do TO.

6 You criticize people for not knowing about psionics but you build a character using psionics and hopefully qualifying for a class that you miss spelled twice without knowing how it works.

7 FWIW Ardent determine powers known based on the PPs they can expend in a given power, and those are determined by their manifester level so a second level ardent with practiced manifester can manifest second level powers. A first level ardent can only choose first level powers

Each mantle features at least one power or ability with a cost of 1 power point. An ardent selects two of these powers from her known mantles at 1st level

eggs

2012-06-27, 06:50 PM

Okay...
If the Ardent issue is being nitpicked, it can easily be resolved with a second feat for Expanded Knowledge (2nd Level Power) or a few GP for Psychic Reformation or Psychic Chirurgery.

Your reading of Beguiler is contestable. At level 4, a Beguiler being able to cast 2nd level spells that it knows is enough to qualify it to learn all available 2nd level spells. A level 1 Beguiler with Versatile spellcaster is also able to cast 2nd level spells that it knows - the same situation as the higher-level Beguiler. Until "access" is specifically differentiated between the two types, Suddo's interpretation isn't wrong.

On Sanctum Spell and Earth Spell Stacking, Earth Spell has no similar restriction. You're just choosing to stack them in the unfavorable sequence.

And numbers 0, 5 and 6 are really strong arguments for whatever point you're making. For reals.

Aeryr

2012-06-27, 07:00 PM

Yes 0, 5 and 6 are not really hard points, it just that it shocked me that those points were on the table at all.

Your reading of Beguiler is contestable. At level 4, a Beguiler being able to cast 2nd level spells that it knows is enough to qualify it to learn all available 2nd level spells. A level 1 Beguiler with Versatile spellcaster is also able to cast 2nd level spells that it knows - the same situation as the higher-level Beguiler. Until "access" is specifically differentiated between the two types, Suddo's interpretation isn't wrong.

It is specifically different.

A character first gains a class level then picks its feats. So a beguiler gains a beguiler level before gaining versatile spell caster, since it gains versatile spell caster after gaining the level he cannot benefit from it for determining spells known from his first level of beguiler (he could arguably benefit at second level).

I am not going to press the mater on cerebremancer further but it should be noted that it in fact needs either the expanded knowledge or the psychic reformation trick which were not mentioned in the original build (and even if I know of them it should be explained if its going to be used as an example, as it should be noted that the build is using flaws).

Arcanist

2012-06-27, 07:18 PM

=>Larkas

I agree with Psyren and respectfully disagree with Suddo. Besides, Arcanist has already expressed his wishes to mark the cheesiness of each option as soon as possible. I'll tell you this, though: it is very hard to make it worthwhile to be a theurge without at least a little bit of optimization, and even then, it is generally better to be a single fullcaster anyways. This handbook's quest is, I think, to make this archetype playable without a lot of power loss, and so far has performed admirably, I think :smallsmile:

To save myself a long conversation I'll summarize it as this: I want this handbook to be able to cover a multitude of types of Theurge ranging anywhere from the "classic" Arcane/Divine Theurge all the way to the obscure and rarely used Psionic/Binder. I must admit however that I haven't found the time to edit the "What can I do with my magic" section :smallredface:

Anyways, do you want me to elaborate on that True Necro build so you can add it to the guide, Arcanist? :smallredface:

Please, if you'd be so kind :smallsmile:

=>Suddo

I am but its because when Little Brother wrote this he had a very clear point of view on the subject which was high op or nothing, which although wasn't for everyone's liking was at least one view point which could easily be a disclaimer which I could kind of respect. And I don't mean to be completely a **** about it I mean Arcanist has done some great improvements I just don't know if its too big of a chunk to rip out for what I would consider an advance guide.

Let me admit this now: My views on Theurge builds and LB's views on Theurge builds are completely different. I personally view that a Wizard/3 Cleric/3 Mystic Theurge/10 +4 Arcane Progression is COMPLETELY fine. However in a high OP game if you want to go in as a StP-Focused Discipline Erudite/9 Ur-Priest/2 Psychic Theurge/9 then go right the hell ahead. I simply mean to go out of my way to present the tools you can use to construct your superman Theurge.

I'd also like to be a tad more constructive and point out that linking here (http://www.angelfire.com/pro/demon_1/prc_mind_mage.htm) might not be a good idea since its kind of against the law if its what I think it is (something from a dragon mag).

If it becomes a problem, I will remove it at mods request. I can't seem to find the copyright on Dragon Magazine issue #313 so if you can find it link it to me.

Sorry this is a rant that follows, its about the consideration of powerlevel:
I also stand by my statement of no sane DM would allow Ur-Priests to exist they are well into the top 90% of the powerlevel of 3.5 and although not "game breaking" like other prestige classes (Illithid Savant, Tainted Scholar) it is a 99% gain for little to no sacrifice and they literally make almost any build better. So hey I want to be a Warblade become Warblade/Ur-Priest/RKV, which becomes silly. I mean it is worse than the standard "be a wizard or lose" type of theme because it is so easy to enter and keep going with a prestige class. Yes Sublime Chords are fine but once you start doing Bard 1/ Something X / Sublime Chord 1 / Prestige Y you really start getting into the same area though at least you have to sacrifice 2 levels instead of 1 and yes you are a Spontaneous Caster but still Bard 1 / Wizard 9 /Sublime Chord 2 / Ultimate Magus 8 is kind of a crazy build when you sit down and look at it. Combine them both? Bard 1/ Psionic 3 / Ur-Priest 1 / Divine Mind 5 / Sublime Chord 1 / Divine Mind 4 / Cerebramcer 5, and yes I realize all the things bad about that build but the fact is its gets silly.
And neither is addressed as a concern its just stated hey you should take these

If i listed everything in this handbook that a DM would allow I would just be left with Wizard/3 Cleric/3 Mystic Theurge/10 Archmage/4 and lets face it that wouldn't make for a good handbook now would it? But if you add all the awesome fast progression, cheesy entry, Dragon Magazine content and stuff like that then a handbook becomes more viable... Oh and on a side note: Ur-RKV isn't a valid build. However I do feel that you have a point and I shouldn't just blatantly say that "Take these or you are a lolTheurge". If you want to play a standard Caster/Caster Dual progression then that is fine, but please don't patronize people that want to play differently.

Oh and because I was bored a list of Theurges: (And yes I realize how much I am missing.)

Basics: Divine is usually be Archivist or Cleric, Arcane is usually Wizard, Psionic can be Ardent, Psionic and sometimes Wilder.
Arcane Divine
Arcane Psionic
Arcane Incarnum
Divine Incarnum
Arcane Warlock
Psionic Divine
Arcane Binder
Arcane Shadowcaster
Full Druid and Arcane (Arcane Heirphdfahd thing)
Advance:
StP Erudite instead of Arcane as any of the above
Ur-Priest instead of Divine as any of the above
Sublime Chord instead of Arcane for any of the above
Cheesy:
Rainbow Servant Beguiler/DN/Warmage as Arcane as any of the above.
Beholder Mage instead of Arcane for any of the above
Bard1 / Crusader 8 / Ur-Priest 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Mystic Theurge 9
Any other form of cheese related to basic concept of arcane or divine casters

Your list is lacking my friend :smallsmile: but overall you did show me your opinion which I respect as your opinion, however I refuse to accept an opinion that tells me that my opinion is wrong and leaves very little explanation beyond "It just is".

dextercorvia

2012-06-27, 07:34 PM

2 Beguilers learn spells when they get access to spells of that level. Versatile spell caster needs them to know the spells first. Either they know the spell so they are able to cast it normally or they don't so they cannot use versatile spellcaster to cast it.

When you gain access to a new level of spells, you automatically know all the spells for that level on the beguiler’s spell list.

Versatile Spellcaster provides just as much access to that next level as level 4 does. You always have to know a spell in order to cast it, so if you point to that line in VS, then you have to take Heighten Spell, or a Bloodline feat to learn your normal Beguiler spells for leveling, too. That is absurd, and not RAW, so this part of what Suddo said is fine.

The other part about chaining Versatile Spellcaster doesn't work, because at no point do you have the next level of spell.

If the Ardent issue is being nitpicked, it can easily be resolved with a second feat for Expanded Knowledge (2nd Level Power) or a few GP for Psychic Reformation or Psychic Chirurgery.

Expanded Knowledge gives you a power one level lower than the highest you can manifest. As above, you have to know a power before you can manifest it, so there is no way you can manifest a 3rd level power (at 1st level) -- if you could, you wouldn't be in this mess.

Ardent shenanigans require two levels of Ardent in order to work. At first level you only learn 1st level powers. If you pick up Practiced Manifester(or the equivalent) before you choose your powers for Ardent2, then you can learn a 2nd level power.

Larkas

2012-06-28, 09:21 AM

True Necromancer Marinade

For this recipe build you'll need:

Player's Handbook (or SRD)
Dungeon Master's Guide (or SRD)
Libris Mortis
Races of the Dragon

Serves level 9 arcane spells and level 8 divine spells.

Ingredients:

1 Cleric
2 Wizard
2 Mystic TheurgeDMG
14 True NecromancerLM
+1 Mystic Theurge

Preparation Method:

1. For this build to work, you'll need only two feats: Versatile SpellcasterRotD and Heighten SpellPHB. As such, you don't need flaws or a human base, since you can select one at 1st level and the other at 3rd. The interaction between these feats is very simple. Heighten Spell let's you cast a spell at an effectively higher level, while Versatile Spellcaster let's you "burn" two lower level spell slots to gain a higher level spell slot. As such, you can turn two level 1 spell slots into a level 2 spell slot, and can use that spell slot to cast a heightened level 1 spell effectively as a level 2 spell. With this, you qualify for Mystic Theurge at character level 3. (For more information on this, follow these (http://web.archive.org/web/20090603010444/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ask/20080603a) links (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3092.msg96437#msg96437). Furthermore, keep in mind that Versatile Spellcaster prerequisite is the "ability to spontaneously cast spells", something a cleric certainly can.)

2. You need those Mystic Theurge levels to qualify for True Necromancer and to lose no further caster levels, since True Necro will already make you lose two for each side.

3. With this build, you'll gain all the True Necromancer goodies while losing the least spellcasting prowess possible. It is also very flexible, and can be adapted with very little effort.

Spicing things up:

1. That single cleric level will not offer much in the way of base attack bonus, and that heavy armor will get in the way of arcane spellcasting. As such, I recommend using the Cloistered Cleric variantUA. The extra skill points can certainly come in handy, and the Knowledge Domain can always be exchanged for Knowledge DevotionCC.

2. You can also improve the wizard side of the build with ACFs. A good way to improve the number of spell slots, for example, is by using Focused SpecialistCM or Domain WizardUA.

3. This build can also easily be adapted to be divine-strong: just exchange one wizard level for another cleric level. You'll have to keep in mind, however, that 1st level wizards generally do not have the needed two 1st level spell slots to turn into a 2nd level spell slot via Versatile Spellcaster. This can be solved in three ways. The first is by having a rather lenient reading of Versatile Spellcaster: you can turn two 0-level spell slots into a 1st level spell slot, and then take these two 1st level spell slots and make a 2nd level spell slot. This is a reading that I particularly don't like, as it's bordering the twisting of words. The second way is by being a Specialist (or Focused Specialist), as that will automatically give you extra spell slots of all levels. This choice works perfectly, and don't require skewed reading to work. The last option is by using the Domain Wizard variant. That variant also gives you extra spell slots, and work just as well as the Specialist option. Just keep in mind that one of your cleric domain's level 9 spell is already an SLA usable once per day by the True Necromancer (i.e.: Wail of the Banshee).

4. You might want to use the Theurgic Specialist featDrM325 to make both your classes' caster levels stack to determine the caster level of a few spells. To do so, you need to have Specialist wizard level 3rd. You can thus easily exchange a Mystic Theurge level for an extra wizard level, as the lost cleric spellcasting will make you lose only a couple of spell slots, though no spell levels, which will not impact your overall spellcasting much. The improved spells will be the ones from your school of specialization, regardless of being cast from your cleric or wizard spell list. As such, specializing in Necromancy is thematically appropriate, though you can certainly choose another school if you like. Keep in mind, however, that by choosing this feat you will be forgoing, necessarily, your last Mystic Theurge level, though you can fit the wizard level however you like. Clr1/Wiz3/MT2/TN14 is just as valid as Clr1/Wiz2/MT2/Wiz+1/TN14, Clr1/Wiz2/MT2/TN14/Wiz+1 or Clr1/Wiz2/MT2/TN3/Wiz+1/TN+11, for example. Just remember that you'll need the equivalent of 3rd level cleric spellcasting to qualify for True Necromancer, and as such will need two Mystic Theurge levels before qualifying for TN.

Tips for the experienced cook player:

You could skip Heighten Spell completely, as dextercorvia pointed out here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13469253&postcount=136). Check with your DM to see if he or she agrees with this tactic beforehand, however, as it smells faintly of finely aged cheese.

dextercorvia

2012-06-28, 09:28 AM

Larkas

2012-06-28, 09:39 AM

You can actually skip heighten spell. Cleric's know the spells they can cast, so they can just Versatile up a 2nd level spell out of the gate. Also because of VS, you can select a 2nd level Wizard spell when you reach Wizard2.

You can also simply scribe a 2nd level Wizard spell into your spellbook whenever, right? Anyways, I'll keep it like that, to avoid any controversy, but I'll add the information to the build, anyways.

EDIT: Done :smallsmile:

ngilop

2012-12-24, 10:27 PM

What i like most about this guide.

That the original poster has so far not called anybody who don''t cheesily optimize, chumps and other such deragatory insults like the last one did.

I was beyond a little worried that this guide would entail the same subject matter.

Though I would enjoy this guide more if the OP spent a little bit more on the less optimizing sort of play style in regards to this guide.

In all this is a bout a gajazillion times better than the orignla if for no other reason that the OP has so far not insulted or devalued anyone or anybody's opinion if they are not the highest most tier of optimizer. You have no idea how happy that single act makes me.

Arcanist

2012-12-24, 10:31 PM

herrhauptmann

2012-12-24, 11:50 PM

What i like most about this guide.
True stuff
I'd forgotten about the second attempt at the Theurge guide. So when I saw this show up in the forum, I was very confused at teh different author name.

Heck, I got one of the zingers aimed at the other handbook author bookmarked in my sig. "Zing!"

Psyren

2012-12-24, 11:50 PM

Arcanist

2012-12-25, 12:09 AM

Are there any plans to expand this to cover the other systems' theurges? e.g. Eldritch Disciple, Soulcaster, Noctumancer, Tenebrous Apostate etc. Even "gish-theurges" like Arcane Trickster or Sacred Fist that advance features of a non-casting class might be of interest.

I am (or was) interested in going into Incarnum, Binding, Invocations and eventually Theurgic-Gish builds (that don't totally bend over Divine Power), but I'm not exactly sure how I would go about this. Incarnum, Binding and Invocations aren't precisely my field of expertise...

Personally, I'd like to do a Red Wizard handbook at the moment because the current one is... Hmm... how do I say... "Lacking" without seeming offensive? :smallconfused:

Idk... I wanna work on an Arcane Prestige class handbook. One that actually explains why Shadowcraft Mage or Incantrix is utterly broken. Someone that is browsing the forums wouldn't know exactly what they mean (hell, I didn't know why they were broken until my DM recommended it too me one game).

But before I even consider writing anything up, I want to actually fill out that Spell/Power combination section. A section that details how to actually fully take advantage of both you spell list... So many ideas, so little time :smallfrown:

ShneekeyTheLost

2012-12-25, 04:59 AM

Point of order about the Spirit Shaman:

1) You won't be doing any wildshaping if you are Theurging, because your effective druid level will be utterly tanked.

2) Spirit Shamans have a very interesting spell recovery mechanic which lends itself to Theurging

3) It has utterly worthless class abilities other than the casting, so you lose little for Theurging. Unlike the Druid, who loses out on wildshaping and the companion's progression.

In short: It has everything the Druid has as far as Theurging (i.e. spells on a good progression), and a semi-spontaneous casting mechanic that lets them have spells with metamagic already applied as a spell 'known' for the day, so takes up only a standard rather than a full round action.

Try looking it up again, it might surprise you.

Arcanist

2012-12-25, 05:23 AM

1) You won't be doing any wildshaping if you are Theurging, because your effective druid level will be utterly tanked.

Arcane Heirophant, however a little insight reveals that you need to be, at minimum taking your 6th level to be a Wildshaping Arcane Heirophant without pulling off some major BS (WS Ranger 1 / Druid 3 / Wizard 1). Ultimately this proves unworth it in the end since you end up with (as a WS Ranger 1 / Druid 3 / Wizard 1 Arcane Heirophant 10 / Mystic Theurge 5) :

Wild Shaping level: 11
Druid: 18
Wizard: 16

Making it just painfully bad... :smallfrown:

2) Spirit Shamans have a very interesting spell recovery mechanic which lends itself to Theurging.

That it does. Also you get the Alertness feat just for taking the class! (It's not much, but hey! Free stuff!)

3) It has utterly worthless class abilities other than the casting, so you lose little for Theurging. Unlike the Druid, who loses out on wildshaping and the companion's progression.

... I'm not sure if I should be considering this a + or a - ... I'm going to count it as a plus for sanities sake... I might not be a fan of the Druid spell list, but eh... It turns some heads at the Theurgist conventions :smalltongue:

In short: It has everything the Druid has as far as Theurging (i.e. spells on a good progression), and a semi-spontaneous casting mechanic that lets them have spells with metamagic already applied as a spell 'known' for the day, so takes up only a standard rather than a full round action.

Quite right. I shall re-evaluate my stance on the matter...

Try looking it up again, it might surprise you.

...with further investigation :smallsmile:

Note: Guys, if you want me to look at one of your favorite casting classes just gimme a heads up and I'll take a peak on over at it and see what can be done with it. Psionics and the Spirit Shaman are examples of things I peaked at and investigated.

Snowbluff

2012-12-25, 05:29 PM

Arcane Heirophant, however a little insight reveals that you need to be, at minimum taking your 6th level to be a Wildshaping Arcane Heirophant without pulling off some major BS (WS Ranger 1 / Druid 3 / Wizard 1). Ultimately this proves unworth it in the end since you end up with (as a WS Ranger 1 / Druid 3 / Wizard 1 Arcane Heirophant 10 / Mystic Theurge 5) :

Wild Shaping level: 11
Druid: 18
Wizard: 16

Making it just painfully bad... :smallfrown:.

Well, if wild shaping into a choker and assume su are options, I would say you we better off than most theurges, or even most casters. Also, I think WS Ranger gets WS as Druid, so at level 5. You want divine minion.

Arcanist

2012-12-25, 06:11 PM

Well, if wild shaping into a choker and assume su are options, I would say you we better off than most theurges, or even most casters. Also, I think WS Ranger gets WS as Druid, so at level 5. You want divine minion.

Isn't a Divine Minion's wild shaping list a little ... limited? With a Theurge it's either go big or go home :smalltongue:

Flickerdart

2012-12-25, 07:16 PM

Isn't a Divine Minion's wild shaping list a little ... limited? With a Theurge it's either go big or go home :smalltongue:
It's limited, sure - but it's still Wild Shape, so you can still take stuff like Aberration Wild Shape or Frozen Wild Shape to expand your crappy list with loads of new forms.

Snowbluff

2012-12-25, 07:21 PM

It's limited, sure - but it's still Wild Shape, so you can still take stuff like Aberration Wild Shape or Frozen Wild Shape to expand your crappy list with loads of new forms.

Yes, exactly! Good work, Flicker. The next character I want to try is something2/MMoF7-10/ChameleonX. I'd pretend to be people all the time.

Arcanist

2012-12-25, 08:40 PM

It's limited, sure - but it's still Wild Shape, so you can still take stuff like Aberration Wild Shape or Frozen Wild Shape to expand your crappy list with loads of new forms.

Ah, I never actually thought of that :smallsmile: I'm thinking of making a new layout for the feat section I'll impliment it once I get to my computer :smallsmile:

@Showbluff: make sure to take take a dip in factotum. Nothing says "I can do anything better then you can!" Like a nice old fashion skill monkey chameleon :smallconfused:

Snowbluff

2012-12-26, 03:22 PM

@Showbluff: make sure to take take a dip in factotum. Nothing says "I can do anything better then you can!" Like a nice old fashion skill monkey chameleon :smallconfused:

I might. It depends on how things work out, since I can fake skill checks with Guidance of the Avatar and Divine Insight. I'm already lit up with magic from Wildshaping into a disguise.

Contena

2013-01-31, 01:13 PM

Hey Arcanist!

This is a great guide -- so good, I signed up just to post a few of my thoughts, and a quick suggestion. First, the suggestion: I know completeness is tough with this stuff, but it seems silly to mention the meldshaping/arcane and /psionic 'dual-progression classes', but neglect the one I was looking for: meldshaping/divine (Sapphire Hierarch, MoI 136)

You see, I'm playing in campaign with a friend who's incredibly good at handling a combat-light version of D&D, and while I realize ur-priest is obviously the way to go, it's just not fun being evil when the other party member is my girlfriend (and we've both got Leadership in the build, for a couple cohorts to fill in the patches)... (the ol' make it through the dungeon and fight over the treasure trope would just land me on the couch for the night; plus playing something INSANELY good-aligned just strikes me as a "classic" D&D romp, with the following twist:

As you might've guessed from my mention of ur-priest, I'm trying to figure out a way to make Apostle of Peace work (assuming the Saint template, as well -- it's too "good" to pass up if I'm already playing a character like this). No, not optimize it; or house-rule away the Poverty requirement... (We've already done levels 5-9 with strict poverty, and while challenging, it's actually pretty fun to play -- I just manage my gf's spellthief's items (which is a lot, since she took the Mage's Spectacles soulmeld for nice UMD)) Now, these 4 levels were played with a Half-Giant monk who took a 1-level dip into Zerth Cenobite (Complete Psionic) for an extra move action, the "expansion" power (yay for Huge Fists!) and 'cuz 7 is an especially dead level for a monk about to go into AoP (wholeness of body << cure spells). But needless to say, this character is too "monked up" to stay viable much past level 9... though it'd be interesting to see how he would've ended up, the DM's letting me re-build another character(s) to replace him.

I'm effectively building 3 characters: My one new one (to start at level 9), my cohort (obtained at 6, probably level 7 with "xp to burn" if my DM's feeling lenient...) and planning on my gf's spellthief's cohort (to be obtained at lv. 12, maybe right now at 9 with liberal "DM magic" -- since she already made use of her "eyes to the sky" feat -- as I said, it's a sneaky-intel-diplomacy campaign -- knowing when we're getting scried on is important.) Then again, with a real psion (erudite) and/or wizard around, we should be able to handle that without blowing a feat... Then again, spells have their weaknesses. (thoughts?)

So, I just discovered the Sapphire Hierarch, but I think it's got the most potential -- the "Law domain" special means I basically have to waste a level in cleric before going into AoP for the real spell progression; but I've always loved Cloistered cleric, so he'd be: Cloistered Cleric 1, Incarnate 5, (first level of S.H.), AoP 2, Sapphire Hierarch 9 (+2 saint). for 9th level Divine spells, and 15th level meldshaping -- albeit only for the 3 least chakras :smallfrown:

Ok, so keeping with the meldshaping idea (Binding chakras is the only way I know of to mitigate the HUGE effect of Poverty -- assuming I don't want to play a Forsaker) We've got Meldshaping Psions and Wizards... Now I've come to the distinct conclusion that Wizard is just the one single class (fighter comes close, but they're a joke...) that's impossible to realistically play with Poverty -- the costs, let alone the massive BULK of your spellbooks (not to mention the huge risk of losing it all, since you can't protect them with magic -- that'd make them too valuable! -- but they're my spellbooks! :smalleek: ) So I rest my case as to why the Poverty -> Meldshaping thing can't -> wizard... now sorceror/beguilder could be another story...

Which leaves us with Meldshaping psions. In particular, I love the Erudite, as I can take my "rewards" in the form of taking a peek at our boss's spells, or the like (especially with the "Convert spell to power" class feature, effectively giving us access to all Arcane...). This leads to an important question we're trying to settle, actually. The Erudite gets to learn 2 powers at each level "of any level he can manifest"; so say I take Incarnate 2, then Erudite 1 (Practiced Manifester, or Illumian "Krau" sigil...) my ML is now 3, hence I can manifest 2nd level powers -- but I'm only a 2nd level "Psion" -- so am I stuck with the "Maximum power level known" column as-is, or is it just based on ML (by RAW)... Note that this gets scary when the 2 bonuses stack, for a total of +6 to Manifester Level with both of those... meaning in theory you could go from 1st to 4th level powers in only one level! Yes, it sounds crazy -- hence, why we're still trying to figure it out. Anyway, I don't really have a build in mind for this one yet, since I don't quite know how early I could get into "Soulshaper"...

(edit:)
Another option I'm considering is an Erudite/ Wizard, who simply doesn't take Poverty, but gets along with Nonviolence just fine (+4 to DCs, yes, please!) -- particularly attractive as a cohort; assuming my "main" is an Erudite as well, they can trade powers freely, as well as let me cherry-pick any of his spells (Collegiate Wizard for 4 spells per level instead of 2 would be nice too). Let's also not forget that the other "main" is a spellthief, so she can use his wizard slots as a daily battery.
(/edit)

Now on to the crazy build I'm most strongly considering -- in an attempt to capitalize on most of Saint, Poverty, and Peace's bonuses... (I looked at Knight 4 for the "taunt" which would be hilarious with Vow of Peace, but 4 levels is too much for someone aiming to be a "full dual caster" with a stack of useful abilities)

Illumian (naenkrau), Monk2 (for stunning fist, evasion, and a free source of subdual damage), Erudite1 (need to take practiced manifester with 3rd level feat), Paladin 2 (still need Diplomacy for Apostle of Peace, Divine Grace gets awesome w/ the (bonus) exalted feat which lets me give it to someone else (most likely to gf's spellthief)) Erudite 2 & 3, Now, Apostle of Peace 2, and Psychic Theurge 8 (to finish off AoP) (+2 saint). Last level might be something crazy like Druid so I can just keep going Psychic theurge to finish off Erudite, but that seems goofy... And yeah, this pretty much requires a non-human to have a starting int of 18 (I guess 16 could work, but it's painful) in order to dump all the skill points from Paladin into Diplomacy (10 in 2 levels!) and keeping Concentration maxed (2). Those last 2 points could get postponed until the next 2 levels of erudite; but there's something painful about putting ALL ranks for 2 levels into Diplomacy... And yes, I realize AoP only requires 6 for entry, but if you're going to have that many ranks (and not have it as a class skill for Psychic theurge) imho, you should max it as much as you can in the early levels.

Sorry if this is resurrecting a dead thread (no pun intended) but obviously I'm not the only one still kickin' it with 3.5...

Contena

2013-02-02, 09:12 PM

Hate to re-post (but the last one was plenty...)

I'm now trying to work out the bard1/druid5/A.H4/S.C1/F.L1/A.H6/FL... Saint?...2?

But I'm amazed nobody has pointed out the Arcane Heirophant requires BAB +4. Bard 1 is +0, Druid 5 is +3 -- thus making this particular build impossible with my current knowledge (Arcane Heirophant requires BAB +4). Please advise.

Edit: Now, I'm starting to crunch this out, and Brd 3, Drd 3 seems to fit the bill... but 9th level spells are only gained at level 21, thus leading me to believe that it's sub-optimal...

Ellrin

2013-02-04, 11:23 PM

I'm pretty new to theurgy, and I could use some advice. I'm about to start a Pathfinder campaign (starting from level 1) as an undine adept (druid archetype); my DM is letting me use feats and prestige classes from 3.5, and I'm strongly considering a straightforward UA3/Wiz3/AH10/MT4 (I'm not using early entry shenanigans because I don't think our campaign is going to be high op, and I get the feeling my DM would frown on it).

The thing is, I have a few ideas for builds that I'm debating between. I think this one gives me the most power and versatility by level 10 or 11, but I'm concerned about how useful I'll be to the rest of my party between levels 4 and 10. Because undine adept doesn't get wild shape until level 6 (though, unless I'm misreading its description, it starts wild shape where normal PF druids would be anyway at level 6), I don't get wild shape until, at the earliest, level 9 in this build--and it may actually be level 11, depending on how my DM wants to handle importing skill rank prereqs to PF.

I've never played a druid or a wizard before, so my relative unfamiliarity with both classes is adding to my indecision. I mean, I know 1st and 2nd level spells can be good, but are 4 1st-level druid slots, 3 1st-level wizard slots, and 2 2nd-level slots for each (possibly with an extra specialist school slot for wizard) enough at level 6? Or casting as a 5th-level druid, 5th-level wizard without wild shape and a 3rd- or 4th-level druid's animal companion enough for level 8?

For reference, our (rather large) party consists of myself, a paladin, a monk archer, a ranger archer, a rogue, a cleric, an oracle, and a wizard. Since we have a wide variety of party members, two of which are top tier casters, I'm shooting more for a wide versatility over an extended period than raw power or the ability to completely overwhelm one or two encounters a day.

tl;dr:
Have never played a wizard or druid before. How viable is a standard druid/wizard/arcane hierophant build for the first six to ten levels without early entry?

Snowbluff

2013-02-04, 11:43 PM

Ellrin

2013-02-05, 12:07 AM

Archeir is very good. I like to use Wizard spells for buffing. I'll take low level spells like Wraith Strike and use them to fill in my swift action before a Full Power Attack while in wildshape. Wizard spells are a great addition to druid 10/10.

Yeah, the build definitely seems good for later levels; my question is how it holds up during the early levels. Sure, up to level three, you're just a single-classed tier one, so you're as good as anything else out there at your HD, but after that, your casting grinds to a halt while you take levels of the other casting class. You don't get wildshape for a few levels after that, and your animal companion, whose greatest use that I can currently see, at least at low levels, is as another front line combatant, is stuck until you get AH levels, and even then is still a few levels behind. I'm just worried how much I'll really be able to offer the party from the time that I start multiclassing to the point at which the different class abilities and casting get a chance to start synergizing properly.

Ellrin

2013-02-05, 04:49 PM

I hate to bump, but does anybody have advice?

Gildedragon

2013-02-10, 05:34 PM

Some elaboration on early entry mechanisms would not be remiss.
also, what is that "9th level spell" trick?

Contena

2013-02-11, 04:30 PM

Your party looks like fun -- but I'd have a sit-down with that monk archer -- then again, I'm not familiar with PF, and have spent far too much time trying to make monk fun/playable in 3.5. Right now, I'm leaving it out of the build I mentioned above since my DM has approved Bloodlines, and just warns me that if I abuse the potential shenanigans, he will too...

Anyway, on to your character, and by some extension, the one I've just been crunching out after seeing the idea for the build floating around here for a while: a Bard/Druid theurge. And it looks like your party could actually use both!

My campaign lends itself interestingly to Vow of Poverty (Book of Exalted Deeds), but I will clearly point out this is SUB-optimal -- especially with Vow of Peace AND considering that the Able Learner feat (almost required, painful if not...) would allow you to continue investing in UMD (and even Use Psionic Device, if your DM is messing with that...) no matter what classes you take. So if you see something in the build that seems amiss -- this might be the reason. But -- it'll be hilarious to carry over all those AC bonuses, save DC's and "your weapons might break if they hit me" thing from Vow of Peace to some (Celestial) Wild Shapes :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, I'll just lay out the basics, and the pros/cons of going Human, in particular.

"The Hippie" (quite possibly as much fun as you can have with Vows of Poverty and Peace) -- However, could easily be tweaked for real optimization.

Bard1/Druid3/Green Whisperer2/Arcane Heirophant4/Sublime Chord1/Fochlucan Lyrist1?/Arcane Heirophant6/FL2?

First big note is that G.W. is from Dragon Magazine #311. The only thing "broken" about it is that it doesn't actually require any spellcasting, so you can get in early (as this build does) with a Major Bloodline (Unearthed Arcana).

Edit: In case it isn't obvious, you could simply replace those 2 levels of GW with Bard if your DM won't allow material from Dragon Mag -- but as GW is a Theurge class, you won't get dual 9's without it. Yhen again, you seemed satisfied with the wizard/druid AH build -- I'm making the suggestion others have noted that the Bard / Druid AH into Sublime Chord 1, then back into AH... still gets you access to those Wizard spells eventually (from SC) -- and 4 levels of useful Bardic Knowledge/Music to boot. Not to mention, it seems like your party could use some Sense Motive and bluff/diplo (assuming your Pallie has ranks for Diplo and Rogue has ranks for bluff... in theory you could play "lie detector" with that high wisdom. Intimidate seems out of place, unless it's your style...

Edit (con't)
OH, and I need to mention another DM check in case you somehow decide Poverty looks worth the drawbacks (google it... known trap.) Fochlucan Lyrist for some reason specifies "Stringed Instruments" (presumably because of the magical Lyre they can get)... but their flavor text specifically mentions having to know the "stories of old" and such, so you would want to argue that Perform( Storytelling ) or similar would suffice, since you can't take advantage of the +2 a masterwork item would provide anyway... (unless your DM is open to a liberal interpretation of VoPoverty as well -- some are!) The text only specifies they can't use masterwork weapons; saying nothing about masterwork "tools"... but that's the hassle of Poverty for ya...

Another thing you'll have to clear with your DM (and if you're the only multiclass character, he might frown on it, but it really does help balance them...) -- Fractional BAB (and Saves) (Another Unearthed Arcana Variant). If this isn't used, you have to stay in GW for another 2 levels just for the +4 BAB to get into A.H.

Oh yeah -- I hope he's allowing the standard 2 flaws: if he doesn't, it might be tricky getting everything you need for entry into FL -- (I'm using 2 feats to get evasion...). Being a CHA-based caster in a 2-person party, I'm also taking Leadership (and I mentioned before I had to make space for that Vow of Poverty crap in the beginning -- those extra skill points from Nymph's Kiss are worth the feat alone, let alone bonuses to ALL Charisma checks. I cry a little if I can't get it as a bonus exalted feat at level 2 :)

A 25 point-buy would really gimp this build, 32 is better -- meeting skill prereqs will require an int of 14 (lower if human, possibly down to 10)

They'll look something like this: 16, 16, 14, 13, 9, 8,

If you can roll something better: basically you're 2-stat dependant: Charisma for Bard/Sublime Chord (which, I'll point out gets you the wizard spell list AS a BARD! The awesomeness of this PrC is right up there with Ur-Priest...); and Wisdom for Druid. Mad skills are required though, so Int's not exactly tankable, but Dex and Str _certainly_ are -- especially once you get wild shape.

Why the 13? Con 13 is a prerequisite for the Shape Soulmeld feat. You'll want the Impulse boots (which give you Uncanny Dodge until you bind them to get Evasion -- only possible with Open Least Chakra feat (min CL 6))

This is also a questionable 'trick', though I don't really see why -- FL just says it wants the abilities, not specifying "class abilities" (Not to be confused with the Bamboo Spirit Folk / Woodland Stride early entry trick...), and that soulmeld says "you gain the evasion ability"... so I think we're fine there.

So if you can take them: (keep in mind this is for my Poverty /Peace guy...)
Flaw1: Shaky (-1 ranged attacks) [I can't do subdual with ranged anyway]
Flaw2: Noncombatant (-1 AC) [Vows of Poverty and Peace make me sneeze at that]
Trait: Polite (+1 Diplo, -1 Intimidate) [F.L. requires Diplo, and this guy has tons of other bonuses to diplo, what's one more -- besides, hippies aren't Intimidating]

So: The _MOST_ Important question: How does you DM handle cross-class skills? (again, I'm not familiar w/ PF). If they exist as in 3.5, they're going to be the bane of this build. With the level progression as-is, (and I'm pretty sure that's optimal), you can't avoid needing to get 14 ranks into cross-class skills, meaning you spend 28 of your precious skill points to cross class things like Perform and Know(Arcana) when you're a Druid right before going into G.W... Now I really wanted to make an Illumian, (just think how you could use the 'krau' sigils on Theurges!) but even with flaws and bloodlines to get Nymph's Kiss at 2 -- it was painful with only a 14 int. A 16 (lol how do you have 3 16's?!) would allow you the raw skill points required; but I didn't have it, so would have to take a [General] feat from EPH, "Open Minded", simply to get 5 more skill points for that precious 1st level of Bard.

Now obviously, this should strike you as silly -- but I really wanted to see if it could be done, and I'll assure you it can, but you might not like how your character ends up in the process... (14 skill points effectively "wasted" = :smalleek: ) And assuming you don't want to be a Doppelganger (and since you're starting at Lv.1, and I'm pretty sure they're at least LA +1... that might be out of the question anyway)... and your DM won't waive the racial prerequisite for the Able Learner feat -- You're pretty much stuck with human. As a consolation prize, I took ranks in Spot (while maxing out listen) and spent some of those extra skill points on complimentary skill tricks [from Complete Scoundrel] (Namely, "Listen to this", "Point it out", "Conceal Spellcasting"...) but being a Charisma-based (scouting?) caster who can put ranks in Sleight of Hand or Bluff also sets you up for "False Theurgy"; the other spot and bluff-based ones are amazingly strong for 2 skill points as well.

So, assuming Able learner at 1, you can take Shape Soulmeld at 3. My builds always try to take leadership at 6 -- especially if I'm looking at a 20+ Charisma, and 9 is fine to take Open Least Chakra (feet) -- don't forget it gives you a couple extra +1's to Balance/ M.S. iirc...

That's all that's really _needed_... but obviously, it needs a lot of love; but that's up to your play style. Casting in Wild Shape is important, iirc the feat's name is "Natural Casting"? (maybe not...) but there is one. And you're in luck with PF, since I know it's come up before -- you want the "Practiced Wild Shaper" (or whatever) feat which works like the Practiced Spellcaster feat (which you'll also want for Bard/SC). I'm a bit torn as to the value of taking Practiced Spellcaster a second time, since you've given up only 2 levels of Druid casting (assuming the early entry into GW went along smoothly). The feat has a potential of bumping your CL up by 4, but maxes at your HD, so you only get +2. I'm thinking of sticking with it in my build, since Sainthood might be in his future (giving a LA of +2). Assuming you're not going the Vow of Poverty route, there's also a feat which allows (limited, iirc...) use of magic items in Wild Shape -- particularly awesome with UMD :)

Also with sainthood in mind, and strength being a dump stat, it's unfortunate that all but a handful of the major bloodlines give +str as their attribute bonus. Two that look appealing are Celestial and Fey; The former makes sense, but almost all the neat abilities are superseded upon gaining Sainthood.

OK, but you're not likely going the saintly route -- and I don't blame you -- those last 2 levels in the build could be Fochlucan Lyrist -- arguably one of the best (and notoriously hardest-to-enter) PrC's in 3.5! So taking that route to power, we have double 9's with gravy:

Bard 7 -> Sublime Chord 10 (Caster Level 20 w/ P.S) Note: 9th Level Wizard spells!
Bard Know/ Music as Bard 7
Druid 18 (Caster Level 20? w/ P.S)
Wild Shape as Druid 13 (17 w/ P.W.S -- or whatever...)

Now that I know this thread has someone else active on it, I might be checking it more than once a week ;)