New piece of the puzzle about Nale and Sabine?

[Winter]

Is 856 providing us with a new piece of the puzzle in the Nale/Sabine relationship? I'm asking myself why Sabine manipultes (and have manipulator eyebrows afterwards) Nale into thinking Tarquin would follow him?

Either that or she actually does believe that Tarquin would be dangling from Nale's strings, something which I find very hard to believe (she has been shown to be competent in this and has been a manipulator herself for 2000 years).

I was convinced before she'd be 100% loyal to Nale (due to actual (for her unnatural) love) but now I'm not that convinced anymore. She easily could have said "Yes, he might be planning something, be careful honey. Now, get in there and take command!" and it'd have been the very same, just without manipulating Nale into thinking everything was in order (when it so obviously that even Nale notices is not).

[B. Dandelion]

I would say her expression in panel 3 is identical to Nale's -- combine with the fact that they're holding hands, I read it as them sharing the same smug emotion (Nale rules, Tarquin drools) rather than her reveling in some private manipulation.

Her advice is pretty baffling, but I have a hard time reconciling the idea of deceptive manipulation with her behavior in 821 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html), where she reflexively urged Nale away from telling Tarquin anything (and then later reacted poorly to him joining the group because it was Nale's team). It seems like you'd need a pretty bizarre explanation to tie together her reluctance to have Tarquin in on the plan at all and her glee at the idea he and Malack would be at each other's throats with a genuine intent to let him be blinded and backstabbed by Tarquin later on. My guess at this stage would be that she's prioritizing her role as ego-stroker over that of advice-giver, kinda like how she didn't talk Nale out of his earlier failed plan -- although Qarr alleges that she could have -- because "that's not how our relationship works".

[Smolder]

Still, Nale is easily manipulated by way of his massive ego. If Sabine were setting him up for later failure, it would be very easy for her to do, and he would never see it coming because he considers his plans (and his genius) nigh-infallible.

[martianmister]

Case in point, Nale is smarter than Sabine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11890520&postcount=273).

[Ghosty]

My thought is that Sabine is well aware that T isn't being manipulated by Nale---rather the reverse---but that Sabine doesn't want Nale trying anything faux-Machiavellian that would irritate T enough to maybe finally swat Nale. The sort of silly scheming crap Nale would try, if Nale really thought that his dad was blowing him off. So Sabine tries to overcompensate and keep Nale confident enough in his status at the moment, so that he won't screw things up.

The time for scheming and backstabbing will be later when they've taken the Gate from all comers, or while Team Evil is busy curbstomping everyone around them. Or when the Fiends show up and tell her to.

Let's face it: the stated reason by T for keeping Nale alive this long---that T needs Nale in order to find the Gate and liaise with Team Evil---is silly. T is the blood-soaked, genre-savvy, near-Epic Grand Vizier of a very large totalitarian dystopia. And he has one of the strongest clerics in Stick-Verse as his right-hand "man". Don't you think that he and Malack could get Nale to beg to tell them all he knows in less time than it would take to fly out to the Windy Canyon? Nale isn't O-Chul, after all. Malack certainly has enough reason to torture Nale to death, or worse.

So T must want to keep Nale around. For a little while, anyway. I think he wants to see Nale lead, to at least figure out if Nale's got what it takes to beat the old man. If things come to a 'Nale goes or Malack goes' head, well, I don't think he's automatically going to side with Malack. OTOH, if Elan manages to neutralize or kill Nale in this fight, I think T'd be fine with that. It serves T's purpose of building up Elan into an adversary worthy enough to displace him.

[King of Nowhere]

I too would dismiss the idea that sabine wants to manipulate nale, as she's been shown before that she trusts him to take the lead. And I'm not sure she would betray nale even if she got direct orders from her bosses.

My first idea was that her love for nale make her blind on that, and she really is thinking he's in charge.
Or maybe Nale's smugness and genre blindness on certain spots is catching.
Or maybe she's lying to nale, but she thinks it's for his own good.

Hard to tell. certainly i did not expect that from her.

[Gift Jeraff]

Maybe she's intentionally trying to make him fail, so that he'll eventually become desperate enough to make a dubious deal with the fiends for power?

Let's say the battle for this Gate ends with the Linear Guild reduced to Nale/Sabine/Qarr, the OOTS losing Belkar, Team Evil relatively unchanged, and Tarquin gathering his other party members. Being so far behind the other contenders for the Gate might allow him to suck up his pride and accept "help" from the archfiends.

[B. Dandelion]

Come to think of it, doesn't Sabine have something of an established track record of thinking people are manipulable/already manipulated and being completely wrong? Maybe she actually wanted Roy to chuck her out a window (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html) rather than have sex with her, but she definitely didn't expect Miko to reject her offer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html). I'm not entirely sure Nale really would have "gotten over (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0805.html)" her kill-stealing either.

...wait. I was gonna just end with "she's not a great judge of character," but I'm noticing an additional pattern to all those events. It's the same offer every time! So here's a shot-in-the dark theory for ya: She's got a plan to neutralize Tarquin that involves offering a special, private deal if he agrees not to turn on Nale, an offer Nale himself would not remotely approve of. She's keeping him in the dark for the sake of his ego while hoping to address the issue by herself. Being, as ever, completely deluded that it will work without fail she's overconfident and passes that false confidence along to Nale as well.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

...wait. I was gonna just end with "she's not a great judge of character," but I'm noticing an additional pattern to all those events. It's the same offer every time! So here's a shot-in-the dark theory for ya: She's got a plan to neutralize Tarquin that involves offering a special, private deal if he agrees not to turn on Nale, an offer Nale himself would not remotely approve of. She's keeping him in the dark for the sake of his ego while hoping to address the issue by herself. Being, as ever, completely deluded that it will work without fail she's overconfident and passes that false confidence along to Nale as well.

I was going to suggest that this could be one of the "mirror images" to the OotS: Sabine is second in command, and her primary role is to stroke Nale's ego, where Haley is second in command by telling Roy when he is being stupid, never letting his ego get out of hand.

But you know what, I like this explanation better.

Grey Wolf

[Forikroder]

Is 856 providing us with a new piece of the puzzle in the Nale/Sabine relationship? I'm asking myself why Sabine manipultes (and have manipulator eyebrows afterwards) Nale into thinking Tarquin would follow him?

Either that or she actually does believe that Tarquin would be dangling from Nale's strings, something which I find very hard to believe (she has been shown to be competent in this and has been a manipulator herself for 2000 years).

I was convinced before she'd be 100% loyal to Nale (due to actual (for her unnatural) love) but now I'm not that convinced anymore. She easily could have said "Yes, he might be planning something, be careful honey. Now, get in there and take command!" and it'd have been the very same, just without manipulating Nale into thinking everything was in order (when it so obviously that even Nale notices is not).

shes been hanging with Nale for a while so shes knowing wich of his buttons needs to be pressed to keep him at his best

shes jsut feeding his ego because thats what he wants done

[Winter]

It's good to see I'm not the only one who's not getting it and seeing I'm not alone stumbling over this. B. Dandelion's explanation might not hit it, but an explanation along those lines would actually make sense. She's trying to keep Nale "out of something" she wants to organise, if that is to Nale's benefit or not is to be seen.
Based on what we saw from her it seems likely she's loyal to Nale but we should not dismiss what she is. Her betraying him would be a very cool (and unexpected) plot twist (but she'd then look into the camera and say "Well, I'm a succubus... if you did not expect this, it's your fault! It's how we roll in the Abyss!")

[Forikroder]

It's good to see I'm not the only one who's not getting it and seeing I'm not alone stumbling over this. B. Dandelion's explanation might not hit it, but an explanation along those lines would actually make sense. She's trying to keep Nale "out of something" she wants to organise, if that is to Nale's benefit or not is to be seen.
Based on what we saw from her it seems likely she's loyal to Nale but we should not dismiss what she is. Her betraying him would be a very cool (and unexpected) plot twist (but she'd then look into the camera and say "Well, I'm a succubus... if you did not expect this, it's your fault! It's how we roll in the Abyss!")

honestly it would be like Belkar organizing a conspiracy if she has any plan going on its one of the IFCCs and there more likely to have Quarr set everything up himself and leave Sabine out of it at this point

[Snails]

It is not a mystery why Sabin is playing Nale right now.

She is hoping to race to the finish and seize the Gate. When she betrays Nale to the IFCC the hammer will fall... on Tarquin, the guy who is actually in charge, and presumably temporarily distract Malack. Or the IFCC may squish Malack as a partial payment.

That is her best chance of saving Nale from Malack and her own inevitable betrayal. Kills two birds with one stone, and she can explain it away as her own best effort to save Nale from Malack (downplaying the details of the betrayal). She keeps her reward (and avoids punishment) from the IFCC, and keeps Nale.

Obviously it will never work out that way. But given the cards Sabine has in her hand and she can see on the table, it is a reasonably plan.

[Forikroder]

It is not a mystery why Sabin is playing Nale right now.

She is hoping to race to the finish and seize the Gate. When she betrays Nale to the IFCC the hammer will fall... on Tarquin, the guy who is actually in charge, and presumably temporarily distract Malack. Or the IFCC may squish Malack as a partial payment.

That is her best chance of saving Nale from Malack and her own inevitable betrayal. Kills two birds with one stone, and she can explain it away as her own best effort to save Nale from Malack (downplaying the details of the betrayal). She keeps her reward (and avoids punishment) from the IFCC, and keeps Nale.

Obviously it will never work out that way. But given the cards Sabine has in her hand and she can see on the table, it is a reasonably plan.

TBH im still not convinced the IFCC wants a gate, the only reason Xykons not sitting in his tower is because of there actions and they had plenty of time while the order and team evil were too busy with there own projects to work on getting there own gate

[Smolder]

TBH im still not convinced the IFCC wants a gate, the only reason Xykons not sitting in his tower is because of there actions and they had plenty of time while the order and team evil were too busy with there own projects to work on getting there own gate

Perhaps the IFCC's plan is to sabotage everyone efforts, resulting in the destruction of every gate and whatever calamity comes along with that.

Let's face it, that's where this story is going. All of the gates will end up destroyed. Why? Because no one has any plan to go back and close up the rifts that are already there. They are instead all racing to the next gate before someone else seizes it first. But no matter who ends up getting their first, the result will be the same. Also because it's narratively easier to come up with a new spell to seal the Snarl away than to go back and attempt to repair the old gates. So the release of the Snarl (or whatever) is inevitable as a way to both reach a climax and tie up the loose ends in fell swoop.

[Finagle]

Sabine doesn't speak to Nale like a girlfriend. She speaks to him like a parent.

[Forikroder]

Perhaps the IFCC's plan is to sabotage everyone efforts, resulting in the destruction of every gate and whatever calamity comes along with that.

Let's face it, that's where this story is going. All of the gates will end up destroyed. Why? Because no one has any plan to go back and close up the rifts that are already there. They are instead all racing to the next gate before someone else seizes it first. But no matter who ends up getting their first, the result will be the same. Also because it's narratively easier to come up with a new spell to seal the Snarl away than to go back and attempt to repair the old gates. So the release of the Snarl (or whatever) is inevitable as a way to both reach a climax and tie up the loose ends in fell swoop.

in the order defence they dont really have the ability to go back and reseal the gates because the time it would take to reseal them is significantly longer then the time it would take Xykon to start ruling the world

i find it hard to believe the IFCC want the snarl free though i dont see how that would really benefit them the snarls jsut as likely to kill some evil gods then good gods and it would jsut make the gods remake his prison again

i always hate the points in a story where your trying to figure out whats about to happen but you jsut dont have enough information so any further deduction is pointless :/

[Smolder]

in the order defence they dont really have the ability to go back and reseal the gates because the time it would take to reseal them is significantly longer then the time it would take Xykon to start ruling the world


True. But if Xykon and Co. were defeated prior to the last gate being destroyed, there would then have to be a return trip to reseal the rifts before someone finds a use for them. However, if all the gates are destroyed, the old rifts become irrelevant because now you can just deal with the Snarl in some novel way that doesn't require new gates.



i find it hard to believe the IFCC want the snarl free though i dont see how that would really benefit them the snarls jsut as likely to kill some evil gods then good gods and it would jsut make the gods remake his prison again

i always hate the points in a story where your trying to figure out whats about to happen but you jsut dont have enough information so any further deduction is pointless :/

Sure, but they're extraplanar beings so the destruction of the material plane is probably not a big problem for them.

[Forikroder]

Sure, but they're extraplanar beings so the destruction of the material plane is probably not a big problem for them.

the story Shojo told them is the Snarl tore down all creation, its possible that including all other planes and the gods had to create some super secret plane (or maybe werent on a plane at all and hid in some far away corner of nothingness) that they could hide on while they tried to figure out a plan

if not being on the Material plane was enough to avoid the snarl then its odd that he managed to take out an entire pantheon

[Smolder]

the story Shojo told them is the Snarl tore down all creation, its possible that including all other planes and the gods had to create some super secret plane (or maybe werent on a plane at all and hid in some far away corner of nothingness) that they could hide on while they tried to figure out a plan


True, the gods did hide out in their Outer Plane homes for centuries, but that implies there were planes untouched by the Snarl.



if not being on the Material plane was enough to avoid the snarl then its odd that he managed to take out an entire pantheon

They could have been on Mount Olympus at the time...

[B. Dandelion]

This tangent does remind me about something I've wondered about for a while.

There's a bonus strip in No Cure for the Paladin Blues where Sabine meets a guy she knew from the Lower Planes and she indicates they haven't seen each other for two millennium. TWO. That does pre-date the creation of World 2.0. I've never been sure as to whether I should interpret this as a clue that the Lower Planes survived the Snarl, or just write it off as a slip-up that came about because of a very off-handed response ("it's been a like a millennium," "two, actually"). But if you want to argue the possibilities, it seems worth bringing up -- there has been at least one potential indication the Lower Planes weren't affected by the Snarl's attack.

[Forikroder]

This tangent does remind me about something I've wondered about for a while.

There's a bonus strip in No Cure for the Paladin Blues where Sabine meets a guy she knew from the Lower Planes and she indicates they haven't seen each other for two millennium. TWO. That does pre-date the creation of World 2.0. I've never been sure as to whether I should interpret this as a clue that the Lower Planes survived the Snarl, or just write it off as a slip-up that came about because of a very off-handed response ("it's been a like a millennium," "two, actually"). But if you want to argue the possibilities, it seems worth bringing up -- there has been at least one potential indication the Lower Planes weren't affected by the Snarl's attack.

if the lower planes survived the snarl then why did none of them seem to know about it? did none of them notice the god killing abomination uncreating reality?

[King of Nowhere]

Based on what we saw from her it seems likely she's loyal to Nale but we should not dismiss what she is. Her betraying him would be a very cool (and unexpected) plot twist (but she'd then look into the camera and say "Well, I'm a succubus... if you did not expect this, it's your fault! It's how we roll in the Abyss!")

I disagree that it would be a cool and unexpected plot twist.
I mean, a demon advisor betraying her protected to further some demonic evil scheme? Can you shout "clichè!" louder than that?

Plus, it's been one of the most important underthemes (I probably made up the word right now, but I think you understand what I mean) the idea that evil people are not backstab-happy morons or all-destructive nihilists, but they are capable of good feelings towards a few selected people. Sabine betraying nale would strongly undermine that, and I don't think that is rich's intention. If sabine would ever betray nale, it would not be a light hearted decision, and she'd do it over some perceived greater "good" (or, more appropriately in this case, evil)

[B. Dandelion]

if the lower planes survived the snarl then why did none of them seem to know about it? did none of them notice the god killing abomination uncreating reality?

Yeah, that's a good question.

Well, I guess I'd point out that we don't know the full depth of their ignorance. Sabine and the IFCC didn't know about the Snarl or the Gates, but I don't think we've seen them specifically unaware of World 1.0 and its destruction. They might know something happened but not how or why, and the gods have deliberately been trying to keep a wrap on things. Everything that happened also seemed to happen very quickly -- 27 minutes for the Snarl to show itself, massacre the Eastern gods, and entirely dismantle the planet. Then the gods put things back together as quickly as possible. If the fiends were inattentive, perhaps from their perspective they blinked and suddenly the material plane had apparently reset itself. Would they then posit the existence of the Snarl or just assume the gods were being as mercurial and fractious as ever?

[Forikroder]

Yeah, that's a good question.

Well, I guess I'd point out that we don't know the full depth of their ignorance. Sabine and the IFCC didn't know about the Snarl or the Gates, but I don't think we've seen them specifically unaware of World 1.0 and its destruction. They might know something happened but not how or why, and the gods have deliberately been trying to keep a wrap on things. Everything that happened also seemed to happen very quickly -- 27 minutes for the Snarl to show itself, massacre the Eastern gods, and entirely dismantle the planet. Then the gods put things back together as quickly as possible. If the fiends were inattentive, perhaps from their perspective they blinked and suddenly the material plane had apparently reset itself. Would they then posit the existence of the Snarl or just assume the gods were being as mercurial and fractious as ever?

i dont think the gods put everything back together at the speed of the snarl unmaking it

at first they were terrified and hiding, it probably took a while before they went "woa its not actually chasing us" then a while to all get together and figure out what to do and how to actually do it

[Psyren]

Sabine doesn't speak to Nale like a girlfriend. She speaks to him like a parent.

In my experience, most girlfriends end up playing nanny if their boyfriends are immature, so that's not actually out of the ordinary. (And Nale is nothing if not immature.)

Of additional note is the fact that she is likely much, much older than he is.

[B. Dandelion]

i dont think the gods put everything back together at the speed of the snarl unmaking it

at first they were terrified and hiding, it probably took a while before they went "woa its not actually chasing us" then a while to all get together and figure out what to do and how to actually do it

Ah, looks like you're right. "They hid for centuries." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) I can't believe I missed that one...

So "slip up" does seem exponentially more likely.

[Forikroder]

Ah, looks like you're right. "They hid for centuries." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html) I can't believe I missed that one...

So "slip up" does seem exponentially more likely.

re-reading the story, it saids the demiplane the Snarl is on nullifies divine power which prevents the snarl from freeing itself, but if the snarl is gone and the demiplane is uninhabited by any creatures of isnane power maybe the IFCC plan to sneak onto that plane and cast some sort of uber arcane ritual that would grant them ultimate power and want the demiplane to prevent the gods from interupting it since all there magic is useless in there

[King of Nowhere]

Sabine mentions in bonus material from ncftpb that she is over 2 millennia old, and another fiend is also that old. So, we know for certain the lower planes existed before the snarl, and were not destroied by the snarl.

Maybe they just were not looking. After all, the prime material plane was just one among many others, and it has just popped into existence for a few minutes before being destroied completely. Maybe it was too fast for them to notice or pay attention. Maybe they knew the gods were making a new plane, and when they saw it destroied just after creation, they thought the gods screwed something up, but did not knew how. Maybe they did knew about the snarl, and the gods trapping it again, but they didn't knew about the rifts and the gates.

[Forikroder]

Sabine mentions in bonus material from ncftpb that she is over 2 millennia old, and another fiend is also that old. So, we know for certain the lower planes existed before the snarl, and were not destroied by the snarl.

Maybe they just were not looking. After all, the prime material plane was just one among many others, and it has just popped into existence for a few minutes before being destroied completely. Maybe it was too fast for them to notice or pay attention. Maybe they knew the gods were making a new plane, and when they saw it destroied just after creation, they thought the gods screwed something up, but did not knew how. Maybe they did knew about the snarl, and the gods trapping it again, but they didn't knew about the rifts and the gates.
what about the disapearence of an entire pantheon? there are evil gods the demons should ahve known in the greek pantheon

also i dont think the Snarl started destorying shortly after the planet was finished, im willing to bet a few generations happened before it grew in power enough to start rampaging

[B. Dandelion]

Sabine mentions in bonus material from ncftpb that she is over 2 millennia old, and another fiend is also that old.

Are you... recapping the discussion we just had? This is the exact point I brought up that we've been discussing.

[Snails]

Sabine doesn't speak to Nale like a girlfriend. She speaks to him like a parent.

She is just pressing Nale in the right direction. Nale's concerns are very well-placed. That is a GOOD thing from Sabine's perspective. Nale may be an idiot but his is not stupid. The distraction will help keep him confused when her betrayal is unleashed.

[Winter]

I disagree that it would be a cool and unexpected plot twist.
I mean, a demon advisor betraying her protected to further some demonic evil scheme? Can you shout "clichè!" louder than that?

It'd be unexpected because we had led to believe for over 800 strips that this is not the cliché, that Sabine is "different", that she does feel genuine love. Right now, the story can swing both ways and based on what we last saw about that relationship, we have all reason to assume she was loyal to Nale.
Sabine probably is still torn at that moment, we did see evidence for that (like her comment to Vaarsuvius "it was complicated" at the bar).

So, right now and to me, Sabine behaving like she should behave due to what she is would be the twist (the twist that sets the previous twist straight again).

[Cerlis]

sorry for the aside, but i was wondering today when was it that sabine said something that showed she had a bit of a "Good" Kink. There are way to many comics (857) to blindly look through em.

[B. Dandelion]

sorry for the aside, but i was wondering today when was it that sabine said something that showed she had a bit of a "Good" Kink. There are way to many comics (857) to blindly look through em.

Are you thinking of 794 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0794.html)? "Sure, women like me swoon for a hero, but that's only because deep down, we think we can change them."

[Kish]

It was parodying stereotypes about innocent women going for "bad boys"; I wouldn't take it as indicating anything serious about Sabine.

[Winter]

Sabine was simply carried away by lust (Elan looks very good and on top of that like someone she - so we believe - like and he's probably good at kissing).
The part of the good guys from Nale is a parody for "us" about what Kish said, the rest of Sabine's speech is just babbled lies to prevent Nale from getting she *really* did lust (with all the consequences that usually entails) for that kiss Elan gave her (she knows it probably would annoy him).