MMORPGS; whats out there currently?

[Togath]

I've been pondering trying a new mmo for a while now, but realized I don't think I have a very good idea of if there are any that I haven't tried yet.

So far I've tried the following;

World of Warcraft(enjoyed it)
Everquest 2(enjoyed it)
Vanguard(seemed to be dead when I tried it)
Warhammer Online(seems to have died)
Dungeons & Dragons Online(enjoyed it)
Guildwars 1(tried it for a moment, but only got as far as the first quest, and guildwars 2 is coming out later this year)
Wakfu(enjoyed it)
edit; just now remember Final fantasy XIV, though i only tried it right at release, where it was very buggy, so it may be better now

Any other ones released in the last few years?(last few years meaning 2004 or later), I have also pondered trying that recent starwars mmo, though I dont know much about it.

Mmos I've heard of but haven't tried and dont know much about;

Rift(have heard of it, and watched a yogscast video of one of the starter parts of one of the starter zones back for when it was in beta)
Aeon(just now remembered that one, I may try it at some point, anyone know much about it?, did they ever fix the open world looking, but with invisible walls everywhere problem?)
Archage(currently only in korean as far as I know and still in beta I think)
And that recent starwars mmo, whatever it's called

[Traab]

lord of the rings online
Conan online
dark age of camelot

[Hazzardevil]

TERA
DDO
Star Trek Online
SWTOR
Avanlon's fury? (That other game by Turbine)
Age of Conan
The half a million RTS Tribal Wars Knock-offs
The Witcher versus

[Brewdude]

So, swtor will feel like a single player game that you occasionally find other people to play with. But it's a fantastic single player story game. If you are an altoholic, you'll love star wars: the Old Republic.

Tera is for people who feel there's just not enough console fight game in their rpg. It feels like you should get a console controller to play it rather than mouse and keyboard. If this is your thing, you'll like it.

Those are the two I've played recently, and I still come back to swtor every so often...I like the pvp minigames...

[Knaight]

Try Lunia - it has flaws, but the gameplay is closer to high quality 2d action titles than the typical MMO, and it has an actual story told through stage levels, as well as instancing. Plus, it's free.

[Driderman]

The Secret World (http://www.thesecretworld.com) releases quite soon and seems somewhat interesting. Modern-day MMO with focus on conspiracies and supernatural horror.

[Partysan]

I participated in the Secret World beta weekend. My verdict is somewhat split: the game is very stylish in the design of the factions, and it features (game-graphics) video sequences not only for the campaign but also the larger side quests. The atmosphere is nice and the skill system is interesting.
However the actual gameplay I found to be very lacking. The controls felt extremely clunky, the restriction of the number of quests you can have active at a time means a lot of runwork and the need to activate even a standard attack as an ability every single time made the game so unfun for me that I only played for one day, even though I really wanted to like it because I liked the scenario and atmosphere so much.

The stuff by the Perfect World people tends to be very grindy, however in a strange twist they acknowledge this by programming a bot function right into the game, so you can set your character to grind by itself including the options to use potions automatically, pick up items and attack/pick up only quest monsters/items. I only played the first Perfect world and Jade Dynasty, both of which might or might not be alive still now, but they weren't bad if you like the sort of thing. They're free2play, although they can veneer into pay2win. There might also be a new game of the sort out.

Eden Eternal gets very grindy as well but doesn't have an integrated bot. It's more of a cutesy graphic style. What makes this game interesting is its class system that works a bit similar to the old Ragnarok online, only less linear, it yould also be compared to D&D's prestige classes. It has different classes and tracks character level and class level of each class seperately. One can change between classes at any time and place without cost (it has to be out of combat and only every 30 seconds). Higher classes have prerequisites in specific class levels and/or character levels (like Knight needing Warrior X and Paladin needing Knight X and Priest X). It's free2play as well.

Aion has gone free2play and I tested it out, but I didn't even play to level 10 because it bored the hell out of me. Some people really like it though, and it has nicely angelic character models if that appeals to one, so take my opinion with a grain of salt there.

Star Trek Online is free too and can be played rather well without money. It's pretty well done, but I guess it only really pays off for fans, since only they can appreciate the world crafting detail.

Path of Exile is an online diablo type game, and pretty traditional it that. However it does have an interesting skill system, nice classes and the most gigantissimistic passive skill tree I've ever seen in my entire life and probably will. I play the game just for that skill tree.

[Pie Guy]

Vindictus also exists. It's another action-mmo, and I've only played for about an hour, but it's the best of them I've played so far.

[Hunter Noventa]

City of Heroes (http://www.cityofheroes.com/) is still going fairly strong. In the past couple of years it's received heavy graphical upgrades and gone free to play, sort of. There's still a monthly fee option for 'VIP' play, just means you get unlimited access to content and certain aspects of the game that you have to pay for separately as a free or 'Premium' player.

But it's entirely possible to enjoy the game and level up to the max without paying a dime. You can see a good summary of the differences between playing for free, and paying to play here. (http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/about_freedom/player_cho.php)

it also has one of the most robust character customization systems anywhere, as your character's appearance has no effect on gameplay, and only a minor effect vice versa (i.e. if you take a katana Powerset, you obviously have to use a Katana...but you can pick how it looks! Or choose a color for your energy beams or whatever)

[Driderman]

City of Heroes (or Villains) is hands down the best character customization system, certainly for any MMO, and quite possibly for any game at all.
It really is quite awesome and everytime somebody mentions it I wish I still had my old account. Pretty sure I spent more time designing supers than I did playing them :)

[Togath]

I'll give some of the mentioned a try, I had heard about city of hero/villians and had been pondering trying it, now that I know that it does still have players I'll give it a try sometime.
Also, swtor sounds like it could be interesting, as one problem I've had with some mmos(DDO and EQ2 being the main ones I've had this problem with) is the inablity to do anything solo beyond the starting area(or at least without maxing your gear and carrying hundreds of healing items to recover between fights), meaning you have to group with someone, which can make times when no-one else is active at the time at your level range annoying

[Philistine]

An interesting (or frustrating, depending on your personality and preferred playstyle) thing about SWTOR is that the Companion system makes every class a pet class. So balance sometimes gets tricky, as the devs have to account for every kind of combination - from tank&healer to double-DPS. Parts of the game will be much easier if you can either tank or heal, and have a companion to take care of the other role; or considerably harder if you try to get through as DPS with a DPS companion.

[Sith_Happens]

So, swtor will feel like a single player game that you occasionally find other people to play with. But it's a fantastic single player story game. If you are an altoholic, you'll love star wars: the Old Republic.

SW:TOR's group-finder actually just launched today, so hopefully it will be a lot more than "occasionally" from now on.:smallsmile:


it also has one of the most robust character customization systems anywhere

I see your City of Heroes and raise you Champions Online.:smalltongue:

[SlyGuyMcFly]

I see your City of Heroes and raise you Champions Online.:smalltongue:

No dice. CO's costume creator is good, but's it's definitely second to CoH in terms of variety. Visual style is different, but I find CoH can cover a much greater range of styles. CO's character always look very cartoony, while CoH manages a better spread of styles from silly to serious.

That extends to the game itself, mind you. CO is has an invariably silly, saturday-morning cartoon feel to it while CoH's plots range from white-on-black campy goodness, serious tragedy, comedy and some quite frankly disturbingly dark plots.

[Togath]

No dice. CO's costume creator is good, but's it's definitely second to CoH in terms of variety. Visual style is different, but I find CoH can cover a much greater range of styles. CO's character always look very cartoony, while CoH manages a better spread of styles from silly to serious.

That extends to the game itself, mind you. CO is has an invariably silly, saturday-morning cartoon feel to it while CoH's plots range from white-on-black campy goodness, serious tragedy, comedy and some quite frankly disturbingly dark plots.

I may try Champions Online then, as it sounds more like what I've going for

[Driderman]

I see your City of Heroes and raise you Champions Online.:smalltongue:

In that case I'll definitely call you, since as already mentioned CoH's character builder has (a lot) more variety than CO's. Champions Online isn't bad either, but I personally felt that it primarily tried to mimic City of Heroes but did so poorly and with less options.

[Sith_Happens]

I may try Champions Online then, as it sounds more like what I've going for

I would definitely recommend it. The combat is more fast-paced and action-y then most MMOs, with no cooldowns on most damaging powers, full movement even during casts and channels, a block button, and a weird cross between energy and rage that totally works.

It went freemium about a year and a half ago in case that's important. Playing for free still gives you access to almost all of the game content; the main difference is that you're stuck using "archetypes" that roughly simulate character classes, while subscribing lets you pick all of your own powers. Using an archetype does still let you pick your own Advantages (upgrades and modifications to powers) and allocate your points in the new talent-tree equivalent that came out a month or two ago, so there's plenty of customization left to be had.

[Partysan]

I took a look at the Vindictus webpage, but I decided not to play the game, because I disliked the fixed character archetypes. Two-sword users may be cool and flashy, but are also unrealistic and overdone and I prefer them as an extra instead of a main component. Nothing against mages and shield users, but then that hulk-like basher somehow insulted me a bit. What is it about two-handed weapons that people don't understand? Why can't we have a polearm user, or a Knight type with a twohanded sword? These weapons are ridiculously skill-based and not at all brute and primitive.

Actually I'd like to pose a question: Is there anywhere an action MMO where it is feasable to play a melee character specializing in counters without using a shield? And if not, discarding the MMO is there any such game at all?

[mangosta71]

I like Rift. There may only be 4 base classes, but each class comes with 8 different "souls", three of which are active at a time. You get one talent point per level, with a second point every third level, so you finish with 66 at level 50. Each soul has 51 points that can be put into it, but you can only put up to your current maximum level in any soul (until you reach level 50 - then you're allowed to invest 51). Each of the four base classes can perform at least two of the four combat roles - warriors can tank or dps; clerics can tank, heal, dps, and support; rogues can tank, dps, or support; and mages can heal, dps, or support. The expansion that's scheduled for release this fall will add another soul to each class, but there's been no confirmation on what those souls will enable characters to do. Once you reach the level cap, you continue to gain experience that allows you to attune to the different planes, allowing further customization. Each of the 6 planes has one stat and two weapons tied to it, along with other benefits such as increasing damage done to things from that plane, taking less damage from things from that plane, increased resistance, etc. The more-recently-added war plane is pvp-oriented

Each character can have up to 6 specs (slots are purchased with in-game currency), so you can swap between a variety of specs any time you're out of combat. For example, my rogue has a raid melee dps spec that's also great for soloing, a high dps ranged spec, a ranged spec that's lower dps but has more utility, a tank spec, a ranged pvp spec, and one spec that gets reset fairly regularly according to the needs of the guild.

You also have wardrobe slots. You start with 1 and can purchase up to 5 more. Most items can be dyed, so you can really personalize your character's appearance. I recently acquired an awesome hat that couldn't be dyed, so I dyed an entire outfit to match it and now I look like some sort of pirate raider. It's pretty awesome.

One of the other nice features is no durability on items. Instead, when you die, you lose soul vitality. It has no effect unless you reach 0% and die again, at which point you get a 5 minute debuff that halves your stats. But restoring vitality is very cheap compared to the ridiculous cost of repairing gear in other games, and it's a set amount at each level instead of costing more and more as you get better gear - at level 50, repairing your soul from 0 to 100% costs 1 platinum (the equivalent of 1 gold in WoW).

PvP battlegrounds are called warfronts, and like other MMOs the contestants are sorted into level ranges. However, unlike other MMOs, all of the players are scaled to the same level. A level 11 is thus on equal footing with a level 19 instead of being an easy kill/drag on his team. Another recent development is the idea of being a mercenary - when there's an imbalance of players from the different factions queuing up, random players will be chosen to fight on the other side when they enter. I've killed my guild leader a few times thanks to one or the other of us being a mercenary. :smallcool:

Actually I'd like to pose a question: Is there anywhere an action MMO where it is feasable to play a melee character specializing in counters without using a shield? And if not, discarding the MMO is there any such game at all?
The rogue tank tree in Rift. You specialize in dodging, parrying, and deflecting (kind of a mix between block and parry - you turn the attack with your weapon, but not enough to make it completely miss/deal no damage). Of course, from the first paragraph of your post it looks like you don't like dual-wielding, even though the weapons in Rift aren't as ridiculously oversized as is the standard in most MMOs.

Other than MMOs, the Assassin's Creed series allows you, with proper timing, to parry an incoming attack and strike while your opponent is off-balance. You can also do that in Oblivion and Skyrim at least - haven't played the older titles in that franchise. The Prince of Persia games also allow you to fight in a manner like you describe. I'm sure that there are plenty of others that escape my mind at the moment.

[tensai_oni]

About Champions Online:

I advice against playing this game. I bought a lifetime subscription when it was new, and it was the worst spent money of my entire life. The game has very little variety (same enemies over and over, same DUNGEONS over and over - oh dear, bad flashbacks from sewers...), next to no endgame content, almost nothing is being released except for more pay-for-perks "goodies", and balance is non-existant. Especially PvP balance.

The cool character creator is literally the only thing the game has going for it. Combat feels fun and quick-paced at first, but it always goes the same way when you fight NPCs so it gets boring really fast.

[Togath]

PvP battlegrounds are called warfronts, and like other MMOs the contestants are sorted into level ranges. However, unlike other MMOs, all of the players are scaled to the same level. A level 11 is thus on equal footing with a level 19 instead of being an easy kill/drag on his team.

I may try rift at some point, but i also want to point out that very few mmos dont scale or strictly limit the level ranges in battlegrounds nowdays

[Sith_Happens]

About Champions Online:

I advice against playing this game. I bought a lifetime subscription when it was new, and it was the worst spent money of my entire life. The game has very little variety (same enemies over and over, same DUNGEONS over and over - oh dear, bad flashbacks from sewers...), next to no endgame content, almost nothing is being released except for more pay-for-perks "goodies", and balance is non-existant. Especially PvP balance.

The cool character creator is literally the only thing the game has going for it. Combat feels fun and quick-paced at first, but it always goes the same way when you fight NPCs so it gets boring really fast.

How long did you actually play for? I heard about how messed up the balancing was at launch, but they did a ton of rebalancing and powerset overhauls throughout 2010; I came in right after the one for melee powers and the DEX/INT Fighting Claws character I made was working great. I only played for a few months for IRL reasons, but I still keep up with the updates from time to time and they seem to be adding content quite frequently.

[tensai_oni]

I started playing at release. Stopped about a year ago.

You say your Fighting Claws character was doing great. What do you mean by that? Was he able to PvP against golden (pick your own powers, rather than just select an archetype) characters? Was he able to solo dungeons* on high difficulty mode, or contribute to a cathedral* instance? Because that's what doing great means in CO. Anyone can do normal quests.

There is a lot of new content being released, yes. New archetypes - that you have to pay for, and only further throw PvP and instancing out of balance. New costume pieces - that you have to pay for. New travel powers - that you have to... I am getting repetetive here, but you get the idea. The only updates that break the mold is more daily quests (because we didn't have enough repetetive grind already...) and from time to time a seasonal event. That's it. Where's the actual new content? Enemies, quest lines, areas? Last time we had a new area is when the noir/supernatural city* was released, and that was in 2009.

* My terminology for this game is very rusty and frankly, I don't care much to refresh myself on it.

[Togath]

I started playing at release. Stopped about a year ago.

You say your Fighting Claws character was doing great. What do you mean by that? Was he able to PvP against golden (pick your own powers, rather than just select an archetype) characters? Was he able to solo dungeons* on high difficulty mode, or contribute to a cathedral* instance? Because that's what doing great means in CO. Anyone can do normal quests.

There is a lot of new content being released, yes. New archetypes - that you have to pay for, and only further throw PvP and instancing out of balance. New costume pieces - that you have to pay for. New travel powers - that you have to... I am getting repetetive here, but you get the idea. The only updates that break the mold is more daily quests (because we didn't have enough repetetive grind already...) and from time to time a seasonal event. That's it. Where's the actual new content? Enemies, quest lines, areas? Last time we had a new area is when the noir/supernatural city* was released, and that was in 2009.

* My terminology for this game is very rusty and frankly, I don't care much to refresh myself on it.

those problems dont sound bad to me, paying for things is common nowdays, and it isn't too odd for a game to only release new areas every few years.
And some people like grinds.

[tensai_oni]

I do not have anything against paying for the game. I said already, I bought the lifetime subscription when CO was new - and it had still monthly payments back then rather than being f2p + buyable perks as it is now.

However, the problem is that the things you can buy... it's not new content. New costumes or an item that turns you into a werewolf may sound nice, but you get them and then what? You do the same thing as before. A new daily quest is just another tedious "kill 12 groups of enemies" or "dismantle 6 bombs" job, something you've been doing the whole game already. A change of pace would be nice.

If you like grind, that's good for you - but there are games with lots of grinding that are much more fun than CO. Where fighting is actually fun and feels meaty. In CO, everything dies fast and you deal with every group of enemies by using the same ability combination over and over. At least on the grindable level - higher challenges and especially PvP require a flavor-of-the-month super powerful custom build, or else it's you who dies in seconds.

[Togath]

I do not have anything against paying for the game. I said already, I bought the lifetime subscription when CO was new - and it had still monthly payments back then rather than being f2p + buyable perks as it is now.

However, the problem is that the things you can buy... it's not new content. New costumes or an item that turns you into a werewolf may sound nice, but you get them and then what? You do the same thing as before. A new daily quest is just another tedious "kill 12 groups of enemies" or "dismantle 6 bombs" job, something you've been doing the whole game already. A change of pace would be nice.

If you like grind, that's good for you - but there are games with lots of grinding that are much more fun than CO. Where fighting is actually fun and feels meaty. In CO, everything dies fast and you deal with every group of enemies by using the same ability combination over and over. At least on the grindable level - higher challenges and especially PvP require a flavor-of-the-month super powerful custom build, or else it's you who dies in seconds.

My point is it mainly sounds a lot like world of warcraft, gameplay wise.
And i'm not sure what you mean by mobs dying too fast, long fights are pretty annoying in games, at least when they take a minute or two or longer, even more so when they reduce you to 1 hp and you need to rest up afterwrds for a few minutes(like in eq2, where killing one mob can sometimes take 10 minutes, unless your in a dungeon, where oddly things go faster, or like killing the enderdragon in minecraft which can take an hour or two).
or did you mean something else and i just jumped to conclusions?

[tensai_oni]

I mean that mobs in Champions Online die too fast, not in MMOs in general. A group of henchmen can be one-shotted by an area attack. A single villain can take a few hits more, but they still die in seconds.

World of Warcraft has one advantage over Champions Online, mainly more content and more varied content. There are instances, heroic runs, raids, more balanced PvP that actually makes sense to participate in. And quests that include using items in various fun ways, piloting vehicles, and so on. Something else than just "kill mobs, interact with objects".

I dropped WoW like I did with CO though. Also played and dropped SWTOR, which is a WoW clone - a very well made WoW clone, with good plot that would not be out of place in a single player game, but a WoW clone regardless. It too hurts due to lack of endgame content, but to a lesser extent.

[Togath]

I mean that mobs in Champions Online die too fast, not in MMOs in general. A group of henchmen can be one-shotted by an area attack. A single villain can take a few hits more, but they still die in seconds.

World of Warcraft has one advantage over Champions Online, mainly more content and more varied content. There are instances, heroic runs, raids, more balanced PvP that actually makes sense to participate in. And quests that include using items in various fun ways, piloting vehicles, and so on. Something else than just "kill mobs, interact with objects".

I dropped WoW like I did with CO though. Also played and dropped SWTOR, which is a WoW clone - a very well made WoW clone, with good plot that would not be out of place in a single player game, but a WoW clone regardless. It too hurts due to lack of endgame content, but to a lesser extent.

Champions online sounds like something I may like, though i do understand what you mean by mobs dying too fast if they die in only 1-2 hits, i had thought you meant wow length battles were too fast for your tastes

[Erloas]

The only game that I've noticed not yet be mentioned is EVE.

EVE is a very interesting game. But interesting isn't the same as fun. Its the only MMO I've left and came back to twice now. I really like a lot of aspects of the game but it can be rather slow and painful at times. It is definitely not a game for everyone, but many of the people that like the game really really like it. It is not like any other MMO I've played. It does not hold your hand or coddle players, it can be very brutal.

[mangosta71]

I may try rift at some point, but i also want to point out that very few mmos dont scale or strictly limit the level ranges in battlegrounds nowdays
I never heard of scaling people in WoW, which is the only other MMO I played seriously before Rift. I also dabbled in DDO and TOR, and don't recall anything about pvp scaling in either of those, either.

it isn't too odd for a game to only release new areas every few years.
Wow. Years between content updates? Rift has been out a little more than a year. At release, it had a single 20-man raid instance. Since then, they've added 3 20-man raids and 4 10-man raids, a 5-man dungeon, and a "master" mode for two of the 5-man instances that pushes their difficulty up to between the first and second raid tiers (in addition to heroic modes of all the 5-man dungeons). They added a new zone for high-level players that's almost as big as the original world with hundreds of new quests. And they're working on an expansion that's slated for release this autumn (around their 18-month anniversary).

If you guys have to wait years for new content, it's no wonder that you get bored.

[Cute_Riolu]

Speaking of FFXIV, I've been wanting to try it out. Is there a demo, or any up-to-date private servers for it?

[Togath]

Speaking of FFXIV, I've been wanting to try it out. Is there a demo, or any up-to-date private servers for it?

Like most square enix games it doesn't have a demo, because they haven't quite figured out that people like to try products before buying them(keep in mind I do still like some square enix games, but it is a bit frustrating their veiw on mmos), I haven't tried it since launch, so i was also hoping that someone on the forum might know if they fixed some of the bugs, such as perma death, nearly empty worlds(not nesacerally a bug, but it did make travel a bit boring) and the limited xp gain per week(which they put in on purpose for some reason, i do sort of wonder the wisdom of that concept)

I'll probably take a look at rift sometime as well., I may also take a look at Eve
Also, what I meant by pvp scaling in wow is more that they limit it to 4-5 level difference brackets nowdays, so it's somewhat better balanced at levels 30-80.
edit; also I'm pretty sure private servers violate copyright law, and they often have viruses

[Driderman]

I mean that mobs in Champions Online die too fast, not in MMOs in general. A group of henchmen can be one-shotted by an area attack. A single villain can take a few hits more, but they still die in seconds.

World of Warcraft has one advantage over Champions Online, mainly more content and more varied content. There are instances, heroic runs, raids, more balanced PvP that actually makes sense to participate in. And quests that include using items in various fun ways, piloting vehicles, and so on. Something else than just "kill mobs, interact with objects".

I dropped WoW like I did with CO though. Also played and dropped SWTOR, which is a WoW clone - a very well made WoW clone, with good plot that would not be out of place in a single player game, but a WoW clone regardless. It too hurts due to lack of endgame content, but to a lesser extent.

It's all WoW-clones though. The MMO-developers/publishers are deathly afraid of trying anything new since MMOs are pretty much the only thing turning an actual profit in the games industry these days. World of Warcraft is a proven model, so everybody wants to make another World of Warcraft.
Sometimes, they add a little to said model, but it's babysteps and everytime a developer has a swanky, daring idea ten publishers have an anxiety attack :smallcool:

[Brother Oni]

The only game that I've noticed not yet be mentioned is EVE.

Eve falls outside of the OP's requirement of being younger than 2004 though (2003 release), hence why it was probably not mentioned.

The list of games mentioned seems to indicate that Eve wouldn't be to the OP's tastes though.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

It's all WoW-clones though. The MMO-developers/publishers are deathly afraid of trying anything new since MMOs are pretty much the only thing turning an actual profit in the games industry these days. World of Warcraft is a proven model, so everybody wants to make another World of Warcraft.
Sometimes, they add a little to said model, but it's babysteps and everytime a developer has a swanky, daring idea ten publishers have an anxiety attack :smallcool:

You'll have to specify what you mean by 'wow clone' here, because there aren't actually that many big titles basically copying the WoW model in my eyes: Rifts, STWOR, LOTRO*, Aion*... Can't hink of any other well-known titles. Don't think it's all that big a list. On the not-WoW front we have Tera, CoH, CO, DDO*, EVE, APB. And this is just the stuff that pretty much everyone has heard about, and ignoring stuff like TF2 and LoL which are only arguably MMOs.

Looking at upcoming releases, things look even more distanced from WoW: GW2, Planetside 2, Secret World, Mechwarrior Online... And a lot of them are using "we're not at all like WoW!" as a marketing point, some more explicitly than others.

So no, I don't think the publishers and developers are actually afraid of branching out, now that it's been properly established that you can't beat WoW at being WoW.

*These two I haven't played personally and I'm working off hearsay.

[killem2]

In that case I'll definitely call you, since as already mentioned CoH's character builder has (a lot) more variety than CO's. Champions Online isn't bad either, but I personally felt that it primarily tried to mimic City of Heroes but did so poorly and with less options.

Gonna have to say Star Wars Galaxies had one hell of a robust character creator.

[Erloas]

Eve falls outside of the OP's requirement of being younger than 2004 though (2003 release), hence why it was probably not mentioned.

The list of games mentioned seems to indicate that Eve wouldn't be to the OP's tastes though.

Well if you are listing MMOs, which is what was done, there are only so many to release and there is no other game like EVE anywhere, single player or MMO (of course the game wouldn't work single player...)

And I didn't actually see that line. Although to be honest, its not like any MMO older then about 3 years "new." By that time they generally have a fairly steady and established player base (steady doesn't mean high) and they can be a real pain for new players if it isn't a game that gets people to create a lot of alts.
But EVE is actually fairly unique in that it has had a very slow and steady growth over the years. Its biggest days weren't soon after launch. I haven't seen population numbers any time recently (haven't been looking either) but EVE has managed very slow growth for probably longer then any other game. And while the game is older then WoW, it doesn't really feel old like many other MMOs.

[Hunter Noventa]

I would recommend against Champions Online as well. Granted I haven't played it in years, but I've not heard of many good changes from it, especially given how much you have to pay for now. And I remember it being way to easy to accidentally gimp your character.

City of Heroes/Villains has pay content too of course. But if you subscribe the only thing you'll pay for is more costume options, and more powersets, and even then, a lot of stuff comes out as totally free for everyone, or free for VIP subscribers. *shrug*

If you do pick up City of Heroes, i suggest making your character on the Virtue server. it's one of the two most populated, and generally a very friendly place.


Also, in regards to being able to solo, the only forced group content in the game is technically optional. The endgame system really isn't, but you can easily, if a bit tediously, go from 1 to 50 (the maximum) all by your lonesome, though some Archetypes (read: classes) have it a lot easier than others.

I could go into more detail, but I'll leave it be. Feel free to shoot me a PM if you want to learn anything more in-depth.

[Driderman]

You'll have to specify what you mean by 'wow clone' here, because there aren't actually that many big titles basically copying the WoW model in my eyes: Rifts, STWOR, LOTRO*, Aion*... Can't hink of any other well-known titles. Don't think it's all that big a list. On the not-WoW front we have Tera, CoH, CO, DDO*, EVE, APB. And this is just the stuff that pretty much everyone has heard about, and ignoring stuff like TF2 and LoL which are only arguably MMOs.

Looking at upcoming releases, things look even more distanced from WoW: GW2, Planetside 2, Secret World, Mechwarrior Online... And a lot of them are using "we're not at all like WoW!" as a marketing point, some more explicitly than others.

So no, I don't think the publishers and developers are actually afraid of branching out, now that it's been properly established that you can't beat WoW at being WoW.

*These two I haven't played personally and I'm working off hearsay.

I suppose my definition of WoW-clone is rather broad. Sure, some games like have some added bells & whistles, some have different fluff, but most MMO's out there follow the same tried and true overall tendencies that World of Warcraft made popular. Not saying it necessarily makes them bad games, but (in my opinion) it makes the overall game options uninspired and mediocre.

[Sith_Happens]

There is a lot of new content being released, yes. New archetypes - that you have to pay for, and only further throw PvP and instancing out of balance. New costume pieces - that you have to pay for. New travel powers - that you have to... I am getting repetetive here, but you get the idea. The only updates that break the mold is more daily quests (because we didn't have enough repetetive grind already...) and from time to time a seasonal event. That's it. Where's the actual new content? Enemies, quest lines, areas? Last time we had a new area is when the noir/supernatural city* was released, and that was in 2009.

They're instances rather than full areas, but you forgot the Adventure Packs and Comic Series.

[The_Jackal]

I suppose my definition of WoW-clone is rather broad. Sure, some games like have some added bells & whistles, some have different fluff, but most MMO's out there follow the same tried and true overall tendencies that World of Warcraft made popular. Not saying it necessarily makes them bad games, but (in my opinion) it makes the overall game options uninspired and mediocre.

It's not the similarities to WoW that makes the games uninspired and mediocre, it's the shortcomings. What made WoW a 12 million user mega-hit was how much more polished both the core gameplay and the game world they created was/is.

Regardless of your appreciation of Blizzard's style, the WoW universe has a LOT of story to fall back on. Three Warcraft titles preceded it, with a growing backstory which was fleshed out as the franchise grew. Much of the story groundwork for WoW was actually done during the creation of Warcraft III's campaigns, which were so well executed that they pretty much carried WoW through its first two expansions, just exploring characters and regions that had all been introduced in Warcraft III or earlier.

I've played quite a few MMO titles, and none of their stories have been anywhere NEAR as compelling as the WoW backstory. Even the SW:TOR story, which is quite good, as far as the main character arcs go, really pales in comparison to the intricacy of Azeroth. Some of that may be just a matter of setting, being a science-fiction game offers more constraints in terms of look and feel, and being derived from licensed IP means you have less freedom, and therefore fewer surprises that the developers can offer the player. But Star Wars is the best of the bunch, and it doesn't measure up to a game six years its senior.

I can't even remember the backstory from City of Heroes, and I played that game for over four years. There were some factions which had good flavour, but without key characters and stories to root them in the players mind, the City of Heroes is populated by a sea of mooks. This was not helped by the fact that the established Heroes and Villains seemed to exist in an eternal stasis. The only really active villainous faction, from a story standpoint were the Rikti, and they were fundamentally toasters.

It's not just story, either. The Blizzard designers also did a fantastic job of simple world-building, that felt organic and thematic, while at the same time varied, sprawling and inspired. City of Heroes had a much more graphically powerful engine at release than WoW, but the inspiration of their designers left MUCH to be desired. What was delivered was a bland, mildly varied cityscape, broken up by the occasional park or ruined section. The world had much more of a feeling of being build with a rubber-stamp tool, and the basic inhabitants of Paragon city were obviously procedurally generated. By comparison, just consider Stormwind. In a city the size of a single Paragon City block, you've got a town filled with unique NPCs, a few quests to show you around, varied shops and places to visit. In otherwords, CoH gave you quantity of area, but WoW gave you quality. Yes, not every place was as well-designed as Stormwind or the Undercity, but they all had depth, variety and detail. SWTOR is marginally better, but still at day's end, you've got mission givers, merchants and scenery. There's nothing that makes SWTOR feel alive, like a place where people live. Sure, it's prettier, it ought to be after six years of graphics improvements, especially given that WoW wasn't exactly a killer graphics application when it launched. But the pretty stops at the surface. Of all the places in SWTOR, only one planet really feels like a PLANET, and not just a Star Wars theme park: Corellia. And even there, there's no sense that it's occupied by anyone but cardboard cutouts, like the fake Rock Ridge from Blazing Saddles.

These two titles have been, as far as I'm concerned, the standouts of the MMOGs that aren't developed by Blizzard. They're as good as it got. The rest were even more disappointing, with flat, uninspired storytelling and dreary repetitive gameplay. While I haven't tried them all, I've seen enough to know that even after seven years, nobody's been able to touch Blizzard in terms of MMO quality, even though WoW itself has an exhausted story and is plagued by insane power-creep.

It's not fair to call all MMOG's WoW clones, not because it's unfair to them, but because it's unfair to WoW. It's also unfair to the MMO titles which preceded WoW and which Blizzard improved upon. What we have now are, at best, WoW-simulacrums, or possibly WoW-developmentally-disabled-cousins.

[Leon]

I never heard of scaling people in WoW

While not Pvp scaling Rift now has Down scaling in the form of Mentoring (and you can use it solo as well to go back and do missed quests for at level rewards)

Its been introduced so that people with high levels can play with low level friends without overpowering the low level content

[Togath]

While not Pvp scaling Rift now has Down scaling in the form of Mentoring (and you can use it solo as well to go back and do missed quests for at level rewards)

Its been introduced so that people with high levels can play with low level friends without overpowering the low level content

Nice, I love mmos that have the scaling down thing(only game that comes to mind is eq2 atm), I'll definatly try rift sometime soon.

Also, on the WoW thing, I agree with one of the defining feature sof wow being it's intracritcy of plot, it also has soemthing which is somewhat uncommon; full open world continents, I cant think of any other game that does that, other then maybe vanguard(though I never got past the starting zone in it so i was never sure if it really was open world, I really should try it again someday) edit; which reminds me, does anyone know if they've anounced yet if guildwars 2 is planned to have non PvP battle ground areas be open world?, and can anyone think of any other open world mmos?

[Tebryn]

Asherons Call had full continents and it came out around the time of Everquest. So did Ultima Online.

[Erloas]

Asherons Call had full continents and it came out around the time of Everquest. So did Ultima Online.I think the statement was just written without context. I think they meant no other game that came out since WoW that they played has a full open world continents. Besides, WoW had 2 distinct zones that the world was broken up into. DAOC had 3 areas, but it was done for a very specific reason. I can't even think of many loading areas between zones in LOTRO either, though it had a share of instances, same as WoW, and I could be remembering incorrectly, its been a long while since I've played.


It's not the similarities to WoW that makes the games uninspired and mediocre, it's the shortcomings. What made WoW a 12 million user mega-hit was how much more polished both the core gameplay and the game world they created was/is.

Regardless of your appreciation of Blizzard's style, the WoW universe has a LOT of story to fall back on. Three Warcraft titles preceded it, with a growing backstory which was fleshed out as the franchise grew. Much of the story groundwork for WoW was actually done during the creation of Warcraft III's campaigns, which were so well executed that they pretty much carried WoW through its first two expansions, just exploring characters and regions that had all been introduced in Warcraft III or earlier.
Story has nothing to do with WoW's success, well very little, rather then nothing. It was a big name at the right time that was pretty well executed. Most people don't care about the story of an MMO. Its also not like WoW's story is that interesting or complicated. The advantage it has in terms of story is that the basics of the story was feed to most players for years from the previous games and that is where people know the background from, not from WoW itself. I played WoW for a year or so and I remember a lot of the zones (surprise myself even with that when I see someone else playing and know where they are at with a glance still) but couldn't tell you the story behind almost any of them.
The world they build didn't even make any sense, with deserts next to ice capped mountains beside jungles, it was all just jumbled together with very stark transitions. In a lot of ways I found the combat to be a step backwards from DAOC, at least in terms of melee combat. But they did manage to steal a lot of good ideas from a lot of places and put them all together, so it was a good game with a large buzz about it. But it essentially "went viral" for no good reason.
If it were story, WAR would have done a lot better, it had 25 years worth of other games and books to build on its story, it told the story of the universe in the world designs and game mechanics as well as the quests.
LOTRO also did a lot better of telling the story of the universe the WoW did and the quest lines especially reinforced that. It also had a much longer history to pull from and better written history too. The game mechanics were solid as was the release, it just wasn't the right time.
WoW did also have the fact that it runs on just about everything going for it. But the only people I know that thinks WoW's mechanics were great were all people that hadn't played anything else. People played WoW because everyone else played WoW. I really found WoW more uninspired and mediocre then many of the games that failed to break its market dominance.
I think the parallels to facebook are pretty clear too, another case where it doesn't really do anything great, there are better competing products out there, but its the people that make the product (same as MMOs) and they are hard to move and get harder to move as they invest time into it and the only reason they were there in the first place is because everyone else was there too.

[mucco]

does anyone know if they've anounced yet if guildwars 2 is planned to have non PvP battle ground areas be open world?, and can anyone think of any other open world mmos?

Guild Wars 2 will have three game modes. PvE; WvW, which is 100v100v100 pvp on four huge maps; PvP, which is 5v5 cap points arena.

PvE is 100% open world, without most of its drawbacks. Your personal storyline is the only thing that is instanced and you can invite your friends in if you want. There's plenty of videos of beta weekends on youtube, if you want to see what it's like.

It's coming out 28/8. Go buy it now. It is going to be an awesome game, and is definitely the next MMO to look for. I tried it, it has stunning gameplay and longevity. /fanboymode

But seriously, give it a shot.

[Leon]

PvE is 100% open world, without most of its drawbacks. Your personal storyline is the only thing that is instanced and you can invite your friends in if you want. There's plenty of videos of beta weekends on youtube, if you want to see what it's like.


That's good to know - what i really did not like about GW1 was the instanced world and only seeing people in Town hubs

[Hiro Protagonest]

Nice, I love mmos that have the scaling down thing(only game that comes to mind is eq2 atm), I'll definatly try rift sometime soon.
GW2 also has down-scaling, as well as PVP level scaling.

Guild Wars 2 will have three game modes. PvE; WvW, which is 100v100v100 pvp on four huge maps; PvP, which is 5v5 cap points arena.
Actually, WvWvW is three servers assigned a color, red, blue, and green. They match up servers with similar scores every week or two, and you fight for the most points any time you want until the week or two is over, when it automatically resets and you start again against two different servers.

PvE is 100% open world, without most of its drawbacks. Your personal storyline is the only thing that is instanced and you can invite your friends in if you want. There's plenty of videos of beta weekends on youtube, if you want to see what it's like.
I recommend TotalHalibut's videos.

My favorite line, from the vid about the UI: "There are no mailboxes, everything is done by carrier pigeon. I of course will be mailing the heaviest thing possible in order to completely shatter my immersion." (probably not quite the actual quote, but pretty damn close)

It's coming out 28/8. Go buy it now. It is going to be an awesome game, and is definitely the next MMO to look for. I tried it, it has stunning gameplay and longevity. /fanboymode

But seriously, give it a shot.

*checks official site*

...Guess that is the actual release date. 8/28/12.

[mucco]

Actually, WvWvW is three servers assigned a color, red, blue, and green. They match up servers with similar scores every week or two, and you fight for the most points any time you want until the week or two is over, when it automatically resets and you start again against two different servers.

Yes, well, I was simplifying the matter. Truth is, you're actually fighting for CASTLES and making SIEGES with TREBUCHETS which shoot boulders further than your viewing distances, so you might have to rely on people in chat/vent to know where to aim. How cool is that? And it's so much fun, I promise. The largest castle takes a few minutes just to run from one side to the other. There are supplies you use to build bigger walls, hire more NPC defenders, buff the players defending a castle, and other stuff - but you have to fight for supply camps too.

Also yes, PvP is accessible to anyone instantly. in arena PvP, your character will be at level 80 with level 80 equipment and all skill unlocked; in WvW, you will bring your character with your skills and equipment, just sidekicked up. This generally means that you will be weaker than a full-fledged L80, but two low-level players will still easily beat said level 80 player. And you level up by killing enemies and taking castles and defending caravans, and doing things, just as if you were in PvE. You also get level-appropriate equipment drops, like you do in PvE too if you're sidekicked down.

So many things done right.

[Starbuck_II]

Atlantis is up on steam (free to play)
Apparently, it is a turn based MMORPG, (haven't tried yet so I donm't know how this is inplemented).

[Hiro Protagonest]

Yes, well, I was simplifying the matter. Truth is, you're actually fighting for CASTLES and making SIEGES with TREBUCHETS which shoot boulders further than your viewing distances, so you might have to rely on people in chat/vent to know where to aim. How cool is that? And it's so much fun, I promise. The largest castle takes a few minutes just to run from one side to the other. There are supplies you use to build bigger walls, hire more NPC defenders, buff the players defending a castle, and other stuff - but you have to fight for supply camps too.

Oh yeah, I forgot the most important thing.

ALWAYS BRING SIEGE EQUIPMENT. Usually, this means supplies and blueprints for at least one flame ram. Blueprints are bought from a siege master or weapon master, and supplies are picked up at the small camps, which are like the forts but don't actually have any doors you have to bash through, so they're much easier to take. Get a siege golem when you can, because I think they're mobile, so you can actually use them more than once. If you go in without siege weapons (or with your only siege weapon being the arrow launcher, which is used so the guy who forgot to bring a ranged weapon can contribute meaningfully against the defenders), it doesn't matter how much firepower you have, it's going to take you at least five full minutes to take that door down (go watch Towelliee's WvWvW vids if you want to see for yourself). Even with a siege weapon or two, it still takes a couple minutes.

[Brother Oni]

Atlantis is up on steam (free to play)
Apparently, it is a turn based MMORPG, (haven't tried yet so I donm't know how this is inplemented).

Played Atlantis Online for a while, it works like an old school FF game.

You wander around the world, much like WoW, until you make contact with a mob, at which point it then switches to a battle interface.

The battle interface is two parties squaring off against each other.
You have a grid of 3x3 for each party and each position is occupied by a party member.
It runs off an Action Point system like Final Fantasy Tactics, with each action (such as attacking, casting a spell, swapping places with another party member) taking up a set amount of AP. When it's your turn, you can activate up to 5 characters who have passed the AP threshold (100).

A party member is a specific class who specialises in certain weapons, and certain weapons have different attack ranges and patterns, for example a spear attacks the first two people in a column while an axe hits everybody in a row.

Depending on what happens during the battle, either side can get reinforcements where an additional party joins in, up to a maximum of 3 on one side (it's a major hazard in some locations where you can end up being dogpiled by 3 parties of enemy mobs).

The world itself runs the whole gamut of mythological fantasy, going from SE Asia (Chinese/Japanese/Indonesian), to Babylonian, Greek and Norse among others.

The game runs off consensual PVP quite a bit and there's usually hourly/bi hourly tournaments that are easily joined straight from the UI. Non-consensual PVP is very restrictive and requires guild leader status to initiate, thus the game has an issue with bots and farmers.

It was fun for a while, but I found the grind too tedious as the vast majority of the quest drops have very low drop rates.

[Togath]

Played Atlantis Online for a while, it works like an old school FF game.

You wander around the world, much like WoW, until you make contact with a mob, at which point it then switches to a battle interface.

The battle interface is two parties squaring off against each other.
You have a grid of 3x3 for each party and each position is occupied by a party member.
It runs off an Action Point system like Final Fantasy Tactics, with each action (such as attacking, casting a spell, swapping places with another party member) taking up a set amount of AP. When it's your turn, you can activate up to 5 characters who have passed the AP threshold (100).

A party member is a specific class who specialises in certain weapons, and certain weapons have different attack ranges and patterns, for example a spear attacks the first two people in a column while an axe hits everybody in a row.

Depending on what happens during the battle, either side can get reinforcements where an additional party joins in, up to a maximum of 3 on one side (it's a major hazard in some locations where you can end up being dogpiled by 3 parties of enemy mobs).

The world itself runs the whole gamut of mythological fantasy, going from SE Asia (Chinese/Japanese/Indonesian), to Babylonian, Greek and Norse among others.

The game runs off consensual PVP quite a bit and there's usually hourly/bi hourly tournaments that are easily joined straight from the UI. Non-consensual PVP is very restrictive and requires guild leader status to initiate, thus the game has an issue with bots and farmers.

It was fun for a while, but I found the grind too tedious as the vast majority of the quest drops have very low drop rates.

I may give it a try, it sounds sort of like wakfu, which i've really enjoyed the combat system in.

[Brother Oni]

I may give it a try, it sounds sort of like wakfu, which i've really enjoyed the combat system in.

A quick lookover of Wakfu indicates the combat is more like FFT. AO isn't anything as complicated (yet) - that 3x3 grid is all the manoeuvrability you get and with a full party, you have no spare spaces to move.

It focuses more on battle mechanics and party interactions rather than flanking or other tactical considerations.

For example, focusing your attacks on taking down a single front ranker so your axeman can start hitting the softer middle row, or using the stun mechanic (if a person is attacked three turns in a row, they're stunned unless they're healed) with character classes that hit multiple opponents at once, is a example of the former.

The latter involves things like using a witch (cannot be attacked by melee but doesn't block them either, strong against magic) in front of a viking (strong against melee but weak against magic) or an Exorcist (who can temporarily stop enemy healing) in combination with a stun party.

[Partysan]

A day ago I started trying out DC Universe and I am somewhat pleasantly surprised. I can't say a lot about the game because I've only played for a few hours, but they were fun ones.
The intro is cool, they have a lot of original voice actors and I was generally somewhat pleased with the atmosphere. The controls are direct like in an action game (the mouse buttons are attack buttons, shift is block/evasive roll, you can jump, there are combos,...) and work fine. Movement is very free in that you can climb/fly up/run up every building and jump down onto the street, it's also rather fast.
Also, they have you acting like a proper superhero/-villain right from the start. You're not stuck killing rats but I for example started out by fighting back Scarecrow's henchman and a lot of hallucinations when he released his fear gas in whole street quarters.
The visuals however are pretty dated, especially the faces. At the moment that's my biggest complaint, really, but I'm still in the very early phase of the game. Still, there's a good amount of styles and powers for your character and the game is full of things to collect (and get achievements for) if that's your thing.