Hulk beatdown?

[Uhtred]

So I'm running a campaign and one of my players, a Goliath Barbarian currently in Mountain Rage is confronting the Big Bad, an Elven Warmage. And because a villain monologuing also means he's both flat-footed and surprised, she requests to perform the Hulk-Loki Beatdown attack made famous in the Avengers movie. I had her roll a grapple check (she's built this Goliath pretty much specifically for grappling) and then once she had him I essentially ran rounds; every round she would use him (at improvised weapon penalty) to attack the stone castle floor, against it's hardness and hit points, with the Warmage taking damage equal to a twenty-foot fall since a ten-foot tall Goliath was swinging him over her head in addition to one and a half times her strength mod in damage, since she was using him as a two-handed weapon. After the first attack (when, on his turn, he attempted to escape grapple and failed) I gave the Warmage a fort save to avoid being stunned, and when he failed I had him roll a fort save with a dc equal to the damage dealt on that turn to regain consciousness.she eventually left him dead in a crater.
My question is, was there a better way to allow that sort of attack, for a larger creature picking up a smaller one and smashing them repeatedly into the ground? And did I deal him damage fairly? Allow him saves fairly? How would you have handled the situation?

[Ashdate]

My question is, was there a better way to allow that sort of attack, for a larger creature picking up a smaller one and smashing them repeatedly into the ground? And did I deal him damage fairly? Allow him saves fairly? How would you have handled the situation?

Two questions:

1) Are you worried that the ol "Puny God" beatdown is going to be a reoccurring thing, that may be considered overpowered based on the way you handled it?

2) Did the player dislike your way of resolving the situation?

If the answer is "no" to both questions, then I wouldn't worry about it. You flied by the seat of your pants, you created a memorable moment (that occurred due to your player's character being awesome doing what she's built to be awesome doing). You let the dice fall where they may, and (I assume) hoody-hoo's were cried out that night by your players.

If you're worried your Goliath might use that manuever in the future, just remember that an Escape Artist check can escape a grapple too. By RAW as well, dealing lethal damage gives a player a -4 penalty to their grapple check too, which might be appropriate in the situation.

[Uhtred]

Yes, I was a little worried that this would become a regular thing. She built her Goliath to grapple and punch and to use improvised weapons, so her success with the Loki Beatdown, I'm afraid, could be seen as the very pinnacle of what she built her character to do. I realize that the maneuver isn't practical if she's facing more than one enemy, or if she's facing a foe larger than she is. But being Powerfully Built with an effective 12 Str mod, but the fact that she can step right up to the big bad and pummel him to death before he gets a spell off...well, that's a little scary for a DM. She was fine with how the situation was handled, but felt that repeatedly smashing a guy into the floor ought to have dealt more damage, and I wasn't exactly sure how to reconcile that. I like the thought of escape artist, and of grapple penalties, which ought to prevent abuse. :)

[Oscredwin]

That sounds like the execution of using grapple to deal unarmed damage to a target. I imagine your goliath (and the hulk) should be built to add as many debuffs and as much damage to this as possible.

Although what you should be ready for is that next time, when there's a crowd around, your hulk is going to use some wizard as a weapon to beat the others with. Be ready.

[limejuicepowder]

Even if it leads to "abuse" through the move being the ultimate special technique, I would personally allow it happen. Think about it: realistically speaking, a spellcaster should NOT survive being grabbed by a creature of that size. Ever. But remember that we're talking about a spellcaster here; how often is this character actually going to be able to use this move? Not very often at all, I would say. Let the player get her moment in the spotlight by actually allowing a melee character do something cool.

I would say the same principle applies to other scenarios as well, actually. So "hulk" grabs a mook and uses it to kill other mooks. Good for him; keep in mind the player is still only doing damage, something she ought to able to do in ridiculous amounts. And now it happens in a funny, thematic way. Again, I would allow it.

[Khedrac]

Hmm, sounds like fun (which is the most important part) but a few points:

When the Goliath declares their attack on the monologuing bad-guy they should roll for initiative - that's how initiative works. They are not surprised unless they were unaway of the Goliath's presence.

If they are effectively in initiative, then the bad guy is not flat footed - he has used his action to monologue.

OK - on the the attack. When you grapple someone you are also grapped (unless you take a -20 penatly to your grapple) - this prevent you attacking things outside the grapple.
You can make checks to deal unarmed damage to the person you are grappling - and that damage is non-lethal unless you have a monk's unarmed lethal damage ability.
Once you pin them you can do more - but banging somone on the floor as described is not pinning them - way too much movement permitted - it would count as grappling to damage when not pinned.

Unless you are a Reaping Mauler you don't render anyone unconsious until nonlethal damage > hit points - by allowing that you basically had your "big bad" commit suicide. Any sensible mage has spells or items to escape grapples (OK warmages have to rely more on items) but by saying they passed out you negated that totally.

So - was it a good way of handling it?
Yes - as it sounds like you and your players enjoyed it.
No - you allowed the player to completely break the rules - and against a "big bad" at that - which turns him into a "minor speed-bump".

Edited for spelling.

[Grail]

And because a villain monologuing also means he's both flat-footed and surprised,

Being in the middle of a monologue should not make the villain flat footed or surprised.

As to the damage, being swung overhead by a brute would be more than a 20' fall. The impetus and force with which someone needs to be manhandled with to actually have someone capable of swinging them overhead would be far greater than what you'd see after falling only 20'.

I would say that damage should be equal between floor and villain.

[Ingus]

How I would settle this:

First time he does it, Rule of Cool + Rule of Funny = definitely allowed.
Next time he tries to do it: the BBEG is monologuing, but he should be smart enough to imagine being attacked in the act of speaking (usually spellcaster = high mental stats), so he's neither flat footed, nor surprised.
(i.e.: player. "I go to the warmage to grapple him and smash him around" DM: "Roll initiative" [= no surprise round]; even if player wins initiative, he may just move to the BBEG and grapple him, then in BBEG turn he's one Dimension Door away of grapple; also mind that Freedom of Movement let you autowin grapple checks).

Next thing, find a benchmark: the heaviest, non exotic two handed weapon weights 12 lbs and the lightiest human male is 120 lbs.
So, to use someone as a weapon, he should weight a tenth of your weight at max. So, unless your player's Goliath is 1.800 lbs, he can't use a 180* lbs enemy as a weapon.
*180 lbs being an average, clothed and equipped, opponent. A cleric in fullplate may weight considerably more.
Another benchmark can be Telekinesys
"Creatures who fall within the weight capacity of the spell can be hurled /.../ If a telekinesed creature is hurled against a solid surface, it takes damage as if it had fallen 10 feet (1d6 points)." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm)
So, 1d6 points of damage. Fullstop. By a spell obtained at 9th level at best.
And again, there is a feat in Races of Stone (I think the name's "Throw enemy") which allow you to throw an enemy for a 10ft falling damage (again, 1d6 damage).
Or you can rule that throwing the enemy around is doing damage during grapple (so unarmed damage + Str, require to win a grapple check) + cool cinematic effect.

In no circumstance, please, add a stun effect.

[Killer Angel]

Being in the middle of a monologue should not make the villain flat footed or surprised.


True, but (if the campaign is cinematic) it can be ruled so (think to Syndrome in the incredibles, when he was almost tricked during his monologue)

[CTrees]

How I would settle this:

First time he does it, Rule of Cool + Rule of Funny = definitely allowed.
Next time he tries to do it: the BBEG is monologuing, but he should be smart enough to imagine being attacked in the act of speaking (usually spellcaster = high mental stats), so he's neither flat footed, nor surprised.
(i.e.: player. "I go to the warmage to grapple him and smash him around" DM: "Roll initiative" [= no surprise round]; even if player wins initiative, he may just move to the BBEG and grapple him, then in BBEG turn he's one Dimension Door away of grapple; also mind that Freedom of Movement let you autowin grapple checks).

I agree with this.

Also, Stunned = Dead. Staggered I could see, running rule of cool. Honestly, I think you made the right call, but there are a lot of ways around it.

Alternatively, an ultra-high strength character using mooks as improvised clubs with which to bash other mooks sounds like a lot of fun. A major villain shouldn't be so susceptible.

[prufock]

I would definitely have allowed it, but I would have ruled it differently.


because a villain monologuing also means he's both flat-footed and surprised
Not true, as others have pointed out.


every round she would use him (at improvised weapon penalty) to attack the stone castle floor, against it's hardness and hit points
Creatures and objects are 2 different categories of things in the rules. Unless she has some specific ability that allows her to do so, she can't use a creature as an improvised weapon.


with the Warmage taking damage equal to a twenty-foot fall since a ten-foot tall Goliath was swinging him over her head in addition to one and a half times her strength mod in damage, since she was using him as a two-handed weapon.
Weapons, even improvised ones, don't normally take damage from being used. If she was using the mage as an improvised weapon, then, the mage should have taken no damage at all. However the mage should not have been an improvised weapon at all.
Being swung at the ground is not the same as falling.


After the first attack (when, on his turn, he attempted to escape grapple and failed)
Again, grappling and using an improvised weapon are two different rules being mashed together here. Yes, he should get a grapple check to escape.


I gave the Warmage a fort save to avoid being stunned, and when he failed I had him roll a fort save with a dc equal to the damage dealt on that turn to regain consciousness.
Why? Did he take massive damage or something? Improvised weapons don't normally need a save vs stun, nor do grappled creatures (unless the goliath had some specific ability for this.


My question is, was there a better way to allow that sort of attack, for a larger creature picking up a smaller one and smashing them repeatedly into the ground?
1. Initiative.
2. Assuming the goliath wins initiative or isn't stopped before his turn, a touch attack vs the warmage and opposed grapple checks.
3. Assuming the goliath succeeds, he deals damage equal to his unarmed strike. This can be described as smashing the warmage against the ground. If he has iterative attacks he can do this more than once per round.

[Grail]

True, but (if the campaign is cinematic) it can be ruled so (think to Syndrome in the incredibles, when he was almost tricked during his monologue)

True, Syndrome did get caught that way, but The Incredibles was a comedy, and doing a monologue was a running gag through the movie, so it made sense to hit him with it as a punch line. No serious villain should start a monologue and not be prepared.

Unless I guess they are a bard with an over inflated sense of drama. But even then, being a villain of some standing would require being ready - otherwise all the other villains will laugh at them when they go for drinks at The Bucket of Blood after work.

[JoeMac307]

Although what you should be ready for is that next time, when there's a crowd around, your hulk is going to use some wizard as a weapon to beat the others with. Be ready.

Just make sure the word has gotten out in the campaign world that this goliath character likes to use magic users as swing dolls, and make sure the majority of the wizard-types she faces moving forward have some type of easy escape plan (at least the Big Bads), even something as low level as a wand of grease. The wizard-type can cast the grease on their robes, giving them a +10 on their rolls to escape the grapple, and you don't have to make a grapple check to activate a wand.

At best, you can rule that the goliath gets a Reflex save to avoid the grease spell coating the wizards robes, but I would rule that the wizard is automatically successful at coating his own robes with a grease spell. (SRD states: "Material objects not in use are always affected by this spell, while an object wielded or employed by a creature receives a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect" - and in this instance you are treating the wizard like an object?)

Other possible solutions (some arcane, some divine) - gaseous form (can you grapple someone while they are gaseous? not sure how that works with RAW), freedom of movement, dimension door, or command (can make subject drop whatever it is holding), all of which can be placed into wands, so you don't have to worry about spell components or grapple checks to cast them.

You could also have a couple of the big bad's minions cast rays of enfeeblement on the Goliath, or many similiar tactics employed by supporting characters.

Basically, you should let the player use the move (it's kinda awesome) to smash up the fodder, but once it comes to the Big Bad, they should have some type of plan to deal with it.

[Uhtred]

Wow! All the feedback has been very, very helpful. I forgot that it isn't mid-monologue that a villain is unarmed, surprised, and flat-footed, it's during PARLEY. and honestly, if they allow the mountain-raging Goliath barbarian in on sensitive negotiations, nobody ought to be surprised when she flips out and starts smashing people with other people.
I probably ought to have mentioned that she has both Reaping Mauler levels and the Monkey Grip feat, as well as Throw Anything and Fling Enemy, so really this was an example of her just doing what she do. I'm used to her, by now, picking up the nearest object and using it to hurt folk; this was just the first time she'd ever picked up an enemy with the intent of hurting him with the floor. I AM very wary of her picking up a mook and using him to hit other mooks, and will definitely have her roll initiative and, if she does it often, will have her reputation spread and the folks she fights start being more prepared for the maneuver. And staggered instead of stunned, for sure.

[CTrees]

I'm AFB and never really played barbarians in 3.5 - does Mountain Rage cause you to be treated as though you were larger, or actually temporarily be larger? If the latter, it might temporarily make the rager ineligible for any Reaping Mauler class features.

[Slipperychicken]

The 'Big Bad' earned his "puny god beatdown". Someone with a mental stat over 20, who can cast spells, possesses his/her full loadout for the day, and is beaten to unconsciousness in a grapple (barring things like AMF, which disable spellcasting), does not deserve the title Big Bad. Hand the mantle to someone more worthy, with the Abrupt Jaunt ACF or a Shadow Cloak (DotU) in case he forgot to prepare Celerity or that morning, ans was so drunk last night that he dispelled all of his Craft Contingent Spells.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I'm AFB and never really played barbarians in 3.5 - does Mountain Rage cause you to be treated as though you were larger, or actually temporarily be larger? If the latter, it might temporarily make the rager ineligible for any Reaping Mauler class features.

The Mountain Rage ACF for Goliath (RoS) literally makes you Large as you rage.

[Uhtred]

It is interesting about her possibly losing her Reaping Mauler class features; I hadn't given it much thought until something was said. There's no requirement that a Reaping Mauler be Medium-sized, but Clever Wrestling, one of the prerequisites for the class, requires the user to be small or medium. The feat does not address what happens if the user enlarges, as if by an Enlarge Person or a Belt of Enlarging. Although I suppose that if the wielder no longer meets the prerequisites, the feat no longer applies?

[CTrees]

Barbarian becomes large, becomes ineligible for the feat and so loses it, making her ineligible for the class, losing all the features. Temporarily, but still. Reaping Mauler has issues.

[VGLordR2]

I thought it was unclear whether or not you lose the benefits of a PrC when you no longer fulfill the requirements. Think of the Dragon Disciple.

[Slipperychicken]

The 'Big Bad' earned his "puny god beatdown". Someone with a mental stat over 20, who can cast spells, possesses his/her full loadout for the day, and is beaten to unconsciousness in a grapple (barring things like AMF, which disable spellcasting), does not deserve the title Big Bad. Hand the mantle to someone more worthy, with the Abrupt Jaunt ACF or a Shadow Cloak (DotU) in case he forgot to prepare Celerity or that morning, and was so drunk last night that he dispelled all of his Craft Contingent Spells.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I would agree that this is a clear usage of the 'apply unarmed damage' use of Grapple. Considering the Hulk's Str modifier, this is actually quite sizable. Make sure Improved Unarmed Combat or some Unarmed Swordsage levels are present so the base damage is not nonlethal.

Do keep in mind that when you are grappled and pinned like that, your options of doing anything are rather... limited. There's no casting of spells unless you have Still Spell since you can't cast anything with Somatic components. Pretty much your only option is 'Make a contested grapple check to get out of said grapple'. Considering the differences in grapple modifiers, the odds of the Loki-like Warmage making such a contested check is... well... do keep in mind that as a contested skill check, the 'natural 20 is an auto-success' rule does *NOT* apply, so it could be literally impossible.

The major weakness of the build, however, is that it is a grapple. Freedom of Movement completely negates the trick entirely. Remaining out of reach for the duration of your monologue is another, using either flight or teleportation or some combination of the two. Illusions are another good way to fool a hulk into attacking the wrong monologue-spewing villain.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Barbarian becomes large, becomes ineligible for the feat and so loses it, making her ineligible for the class, losing all the features. Temporarily, but still. Reaping Mauler has issues.

If after entering a prestige class, you no longer meet its initial pre-requisites (temporary or not), you do NOT lose your class features. IIRC, there are some PrC's that by their own class features, make you inelligibile for the PrC by the entry requirements, so such a ruling would make literally no sense at all.

Only feats have that sort of restriction, not class features.


All that said, Reaping Mauler sucks.

[CTrees]

If after entering a prestige class, you no longer meet its initial pre-requisites (temporary or not), you do NOT lose your class features. IIRC, there are some PrC's that by their own class features, make you inelligibile for the PrC by the entry requirements, so such a ruling would make literally no sense at all.

Only feats have that sort of restriction, not class features.


All that said, Reaping Mauler sucks.

Complete Warrior, page 16 disagrees. Amusingly this is the same book as the Reaping Mauler, and the feat (Clever Wrestling) which hurts it the most.

[Uhtred]

I flipped to page 16 and legitimately thought you were pointing out the Bear Warrior prestige class as an alternative to Reaping Mauler. :P and I actually got thinking about a bear's Improved Grab ability, a bear's strength mod...

[StreamOfTheSky]

Complete Warrior, page 16 disagrees.

And yet, right in core we have Dragon Disciple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm):
"Requirements
To qualify to become a dragon disciple, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Race
Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon). "


"Dragon Apotheosis
At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template."


But if a DM wishes to punish a player for taking possibly the weakest prestige class ever printed...not my concern.

[JoeMac307]

Wow! All the feedback has been very, very helpful. I forgot that it isn't mid-monologue that a villain is unarmed, surprised, and flat-footed, it's during PARLEY. and honestly, if they allow the mountain-raging Goliath barbarian in on sensitive negotiations, nobody ought to be surprised when she flips out and starts smashing people with other people.
I probably ought to have mentioned that she has both Reaping Mauler levels and the Monkey Grip feat, as well as Throw Anything and Fling Enemy, so really this was an example of her just doing what she do. I'm used to her, by now, picking up the nearest object and using it to hurt folk; this was just the first time she'd ever picked up an enemy with the intent of hurting him with the floor. I AM very wary of her picking up a mook and using him to hit other mooks, and will definitely have her roll initiative and, if she does it often, will have her reputation spread and the folks she fights start being more prepared for the maneuver. And staggered instead of stunned, for sure.

So, any updates? Has your player tried this tactic again? How did it go?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I flipped to page 16 and legitimately thought you were pointing out the Bear Warrior prestige class as an alternative to Reaping Mauler. :P and I actually got thinking about a bear's Improved Grab ability, a bear's strength mod...

Bears also get Improved Grab and the 5th level bear form is a Large size, providing a size bonus to grapple checks. So yes, Bear Warrior is quite good for a grapple build.

[Tim Proctor]

Am I the only one that makes all the BBEG spellcasters use contingency with a teleport effect (dimension step, dimension jump, etc.) for grapple? Or the contingency on a Wall of Iron that circles around him whenever an enemy gets within 20 ft, of which he just teleports out of afterwards. Nothing is more annoying than a spellcaster being pinned and rendered utterly useless.

While I can see the point of the encounter I usually spend a great deal of time with the BBEG and their encounters. One of them had the group enter a room where they though that he was (programmed image) and then they got blasted by fire traps and symbols of pain. Then after being harried by all these permanent spells that Wizards have they charged into the actual throne room only to have more programmed images, teleportation circles and contingency spells screw them up.

I do think that you handled the mechanics somewhat properly. Since the spellcaster didn't get to his turn yet in combat then I'd consider him flat-footed but not surprised. "At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed." but since he's talking to them he obviously knows that they are there.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Am I the only one that makes all the BBEG spellcasters use contingency with a teleport effect (dimension step, dimension jump, etc.) for grapple? Or the contingency on a Wall of Iron that circles around him whenever an enemy gets within 20 ft, of which he just teleports out of afterwards. Nothing is more annoying than a spellcaster being pinned and rendered utterly useless.

While I can see the point of the encounter I usually spend a great deal of time with the BBEG and their encounters. One of them had the group enter a room where they though that he was (programmed image) and then they got blasted by fire traps and symbols of pain. Then after being harried by all these permanent spells that Wizards have they charged into the actual throne room only to have more programmed images, teleportation circles and contingency spells screw them up.

I do think that you handled the mechanics somewhat properly. Since the spellcaster didn't get to his turn yet in combat then I'd consider him flat-footed but not surprised. "At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed." but since he's talking to them he obviously knows that they are there.

Warmage doesn't have access to Contingency, or Permanent Image, or teleportation spells of any stripe.

Please read post before posting response.

Also, you seem to be confused as to the nature of Contingency. It's a self-only buff. If spells are going off in an area due to PC interaction, then it's a Magical Trap, not a Contingency, and the party Rogue must have been either dead, unconscious, or asleep to not have seen and bypassed them.

[Toliudar]

Am I the only one that makes all the BBEG spellcasters use contingency with a teleport effect (dimension step, dimension jump, etc.) for grapple? Or the contingency on a Wall of Iron that circles around him whenever an enemy gets within 20 ft, of which he just teleports out of afterwards. Nothing is more annoying than a spellcaster being pinned and rendered utterly useless.

While I can see the point of the encounter I usually spend a great deal of time with the BBEG and their encounters. One of them had the group enter a room where they though that he was (programmed image) and then they got blasted by fire traps and symbols of pain. Then after being harried by all these permanent spells that Wizards have they charged into the actual throne room only to have more programmed images, teleportation circles and contingency spells screw them up.

You're not alone in this. But that's why a lot of players will start with some kind of Dimension Lock/Anchor. Also, unless you're using the ultra-cheesy Craft Contingent Spell (since I always ban it, I feel guilty about using it myself), this is a once-in-the-fight solution. If you want the BBEG to teleport away and not reappear, that's just fine. But as a part of a big climactic battle, this is not a long-term survival strategy.

[JoeMac307]

the party Rogue must have been either dead, unconscious, or asleep to not have seen and bypassed them.

How do you know that party Rogue isn't a narcoleptic? That could be an interesting quirk to roleplay ("every time you roll a natural 1, your character falls asleep on the spot for 1d6 minutes" - that would make me laugh my butt off, although I guess it is somewhat insensitive)

[Tim Proctor]

Warmage doesn't have access to Contingency, or Permanent Image, or teleportation spells of any stripe.

Please read post before posting response.

Also, you seem to be confused as to the nature of Contingency. It's a self-only buff. If spells are going off in an area due to PC interaction, then it's a Magical Trap, not a Contingency, and the party Rogue must have been either dead, unconscious, or asleep to not have seen and bypassed them.

Dude, I said that is what I do mainly in response to the Wand of Grease comment. But since you brought it up there are a couple ways for a War Mage to get access to that stuff, the best is the Arcane Disciple feat ( Complete Divine, p. 79) is my favorite especially with a War Mage who can greatly use the utility spells. The ability to teleport is probably one of the best abilities in the game.

Second of all, I'm not confused about Contingency at all. Most people know that you just string it together with Celerity if you want to cast anything else. I didn't think that I have to take baby steps.

Thirdly, Programmed Image is something you cast every day for 9 months that way when someone going into your dungeon all sorts of weird crap happens. Same with Magic Mouth, Sepia Snake Sigil, Fire Trap, Symbol of Pain, Explosive Runes, Leomund's False Trap, etc. and okay they got a Rogue and he is going to disable the Snake Sigil that is why you have a Programmed Image and a Fire Trap set to go off when they attempt to disarm the Sigil. You also have tons of animated dead in there that are uncontrolled so they can try to disable all of the stuff but there is just too much going on.

[Tim Proctor]

You're not alone in this. But that's why a lot of players will start with some kind of Dimension Lock/Anchor. Also, unless you're using the ultra-cheesy Craft Contingent Spell (since I always ban it, I feel guilty about using it myself), this is a once-in-the-fight solution. If you want the BBEG to teleport away and not reappear, that's just fine. But as a part of a big climactic battle, this is not a long-term survival strategy.

If I was a spell caster with minions and this group burst in to my place, killed all my minions and made their way into my private sanctum I'd teleport away without thinking twice, it is meant to get him to safety even if that means that there is no climax because the players let them escape. I would think that they would be very strategic in ensuring that they didn't die.

In one adventurer the group is trying to kill a corrupt puppet king and at the slightest sign of danger his bodyguard just teleports him away. It took the group a couple adventures to figure out how to get him, they got a map of the evacuation areas within the city that the guards used and waited in one of them while an NPC feinted an ambush, one the guy appeared dimension anchor went on and they got him.

[Toliudar]

I agree that teleporting the BBEG away at the first sign of danger is the most fool-proof way of surviving, but it must be awfully frustrating. Not for the players, although they might be pissed as well, but for the BBEG, who spends months building up a plan and then abandons at the first sign of trouble. It strikes me as a recipe for not getting a whole lot accomplished.

With the puppet king, the issue is even more acute. You're only a king in the context of a kingdom, and in most cases when you're surrounded by people who are willing to treat you like you're the king. If the king can't risk showing himself in public on an ongoing basis, and no one rises up to challenge the people who are threataening his life, he effectively stops being king.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Dude, I said that is what I do mainly in response to the Wand of Grease comment. But since you brought it up there are a couple ways for a War Mage to get access to that stuff, the best is the Arcane Disciple feat ( Complete Divine, p. 79) is my favorite especially with a War Mage who can greatly use the utility spells. The ability to teleport is probably one of the best abilities in the game.Arcane Disciple is pretty strong in the hands of a Warmage since he gets to bypass the 1/day limitation by virtue of simply adding the spells to his spell list, however you have to have matching alignment and a follower of the deity granting the domain, a fact which is often overlooked.


Second of all, I'm not confused about Contingency at all. Most people know that you just string it together with Celerity if you want to cast anything else. I didn't think that I have to take baby steps.A contingency is self-only. Sure, Contingency Celerity is an often used combo (when not outright banned), but barring Craft Contingency, you can still only have ONE up at a time. Also don't forget the stun effect by using Celerity. And it can't trigger things not in the wizard's immediate vicinity.


Thirdly, Programmed Image is something you cast every day for 9 months that way when someone going into your dungeon all sorts of weird crap happens. Same with Magic Mouth, Sepia Snake Sigil, Fire Trap, Symbol of Pain, Explosive Runes, Leomund's False Trap, etc. and okay they got a Rogue and he is going to disable the Snake Sigil that is why you have a Programmed Image and a Fire Trap set to go off when they attempt to disarm the Sigil. You also have tons of animated dead in there that are uncontrolled so they can try to disable all of the stuff but there is just too much going on.
Close, but no cigar. That's just nesting magical traps. Which can be similarly disarmed. Or the party Wizard gets fed up and Dispel Magic (area) the place.

Programmed Image can't directly affect anything, and since 3e, a magic mouth can't cast spells. They're quite powerful when used properly, yes, but that's not what they do. They're more used to lure PC's into charging blindly into a bad situation, or concealing a more viable threat.

Personally, I'm always fond of concealing a Symbol of Insanity behind Illusionary Terrain walls. The wizard with True Sight sees through the wall... only to go insane upon seeing the Symbol. Ironically, it's only a threat to people who MAKE their saving throw against the illusion, if they interact with it.

When they stop using True Sight because of the hazards involved, I put up an illusion of a wall and have the BBEG dash through it to show how illusionary it is. Party charges through it... into the Prismatic Wall behind it.

Best trap I ever had was a minor teleportation effect in an intersection that put you in a random hallway direction every time it was triggered. Splitting up the party FTW.

But... you throw too many traps into a dungeon, and the party Rogue will slow everything down to a crawl to negate the threat. And he WILL be able to spot and disarm things like Fire Trap, Explosive Runes, the various Symbols... and it takes four hours for the party to get to the next encounter because of it.

Traps are like spices... you want just enough to liven things up, not enough to choke everyone.

[animewatcha]

A little outdated I know, but if you go by the faq and the pre-reqs for things like reaping mauler. Only the taking of the feats is required ( by whatever means ), not necessarily the receiving of benefits from ( unless class abilities refer to it like shou disciple ).

[vhfforever]

To be fair, it says you can't start the PrC as one. Not that you can't become one later. :)


And yet, right in core we have Dragon Disciple (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm):
"Requirements
To qualify to become a dragon disciple, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Race
Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon). "


"Dragon Apotheosis
At 10th level, a dragon disciple takes on the half-dragon template."


But if a DM wishes to punish a player for taking possibly the weakest prestige class ever printed...not my concern.

[Tim Proctor]

But... you throw too many traps into a dungeon, and the party Rogue will slow everything down to a crawl to negate the threat. And he WILL be able to spot and disarm things like Fire Trap, Explosive Runes, the various Symbols... and it takes four hours for the party to get to the next encounter because of it.

Traps are like spices... you want just enough to liven things up, not enough to choke everyone.

Well that is depending on the party, every party that I've ever been in or DM'd would stop waitng on the Rogue when they realized that they should walk through most of it and take minor damage and just eat up some cleric spells. Which is the point, to have them down to very limited heals during the BBEG encounter so that it counts for more. Obviously I would have him teleport away to hex the group another day, because it is better than dying.

There is also consideration to what a lvl 14 wizard could do on their own, meaning that there is no XP gained from the traps and scenarios that the wizard creates as they are just parts of what a spell caster can do, similar to that of summon monster.

But like I said and in line with the thread, you handled the mechanics of the situation well. I can't find flaw other than the surprise aspect to it. I find the inventive manner of damage via falling damage and floor a good standpoint. I would have it treat the floor as the improvised weapon and have it deal damage to him and add Str Bonus, the difference relies in DR, but I think that it worked well, and you should be commended.

Whether the BBEG would be caught in that situation is another matter entirely. I think that most people agree that you did the DMing and mechanics absolutely right! However, whether or not he got into the situation in the first place, is a matter of what I let the player get away with and whether the BBEG if the BBEG of all or a minion?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well that is depending on the party, every party that I've ever been in or DM'd would stop waitng on the Rogue when they realized that they should walk through most of it and take minor damage and just eat up some cleric spells. Which is the point, to have them down to very limited heals during the BBEG encounter so that it counts for more. Obviously I would have him teleport away to hex the group another day, because it is better than dying.Wait... what cleric spells? Healing is delivered via Vigor line for fast healing. Minor damage is simply healed with Fast Healing out of combat between encounters.

Or is it simply that in your games that Wizards have access to Contingency Celerity, but Clerics don't have access to Vigor line and DMM Persist?


There is also consideration to what a lvl 14 wizard could do on their own, meaning that there is no XP gained from the traps and scenarios that the wizard creates as they are just parts of what a spell caster can do, similar to that of summon monster.By RAW... that is incorrect, as long as he doesn't use them in combat. They would count as traps, with an appropriate CR, and would award experience for bypassing them. However, the DC on most traps is so low that they would register as 'trivial encounter, no experience granted'.

I'll agree, no character should be able to successfully grapple a wizard after about level five or so, if the caster is in any way even remotely competent. And a BBEG should be, at the least, competent. However, having done so... I also approve of the results.

The next BBEG should probably invest in some form of Freedom of Movement, however.

[Tim Proctor]

Wait... what cleric spells? Healing is delivered via Vigor line for fast healing. Minor damage is simply healed with Fast Healing out of combat between encounters.

Or is it simply that in your games that Wizards have access to Contingency Celerity, but Clerics don't have access to Vigor line and DMM Persist?


To use Persist Spell on Vigorous Circle requires 7 uses of Turn Undead, so unless the Cleric has a Charisma of 18 he's using a feat for Extra Turning. That means it is going to cost him 4 feats for this trick (Divine Metamagic, Extra Turning, Persist Spell, Extend Spell), only to have some chump cast dispel magic. They'd be 10x better off with the reserve feat Touch of Healing, and heal in between combats that way. It can't be dispelled and frees up 3 feats.

In combat he will most definitely have to use spells to heal the group or risk them dying. That is unless the minions can't deliver enough damage to get close to dropping one of the team members. But if they take 45 points of damage and then wait 15 rounds (1 1/2 minutes) before going into the next room then that gives the minions 15 rounds of movement to surround the group and prepare an ambush. Furthermore, you can't just throw straight damage at the group you need to damage their abilities, like with a Greater Shadow or a Dread Wraith.

If the BBEG isn't like Dr. Doom that has contingency plans on contingency plans then he's more like a Really Stupid Evil Guy. If the BBEG gets foiled because he can't get around vigor then he needs to take a permanent vacation and stop trying for world domination.

[Dr.Epic]

If this was sudden thing and you didn't have time to properly work out the mechanics, yeah, sounds about right.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

To use Persist Spell on Vigorous Circle requires 7 uses of Turn Undead, so unless the Cleric has a Charisma of 18 he's using a feat for Extra Turning. That means it is going to cost him 4 feats for this trick (Divine Metamagic, Extra Turning, Persist Spell, Extend Spell), only to have some chump cast dispel magic. They'd be 10x better off with the reserve feat Touch of Healing, and heal in between combats that way. It can't be dispelled and frees up 3 feats.

In combat he will most definitely have to use spells to heal the group or risk them dying. That is unless the minions can't deliver enough damage to get close to dropping one of the team members. But if they take 45 points of damage and then wait 15 rounds (1 1/2 minutes) before going into the next room then that gives the minions 15 rounds of movement to surround the group and prepare an ambush. Furthermore, you can't just throw straight damage at the group you need to damage their abilities, like with a Greater Shadow or a Dread Wraith.

If the BBEG isn't like Dr. Doom that has contingency plans on contingency plans then he's more like a Really Stupid Evil Guy. If the BBEG gets foiled because he can't get around vigor then he needs to take a permanent vacation and stop trying for world domination.

Only half the feats can be obtained for free from domain choices, you can easily end up with DMM: Persist by level 1.

And DMM: Persist is useful anyways with Righteous Might and Divine Power to make the most simple version of Clericzilla. Tossing out unlimited healing with it is the cheap plastic toy in your box of crackerjacks.

You also seem to be unaware of how easy it is to stack turn undead uses through other effects which count as turn undead, but aren't. 30+ TU uses/day is by no means uncommon.

Bead of Karma = +4 CL. Grab the ioun stone, and good luck trying to dispel the effects. If you have a real problem, grab Divine Spellpower and laugh at anything short of MDJ trying to get rid of it.

In combat healing is a fool's gambit. You're expending spells to partially negate the effects of your opponent's unlimited resources (dealing damage). It would be much more efficient to simply prevent them from being hurt in the first place (GMW/MV/ProtEvil (or mind blank with the right domain selection)/etc). Make it almost impossible for your party to be hurt in the first place.

[Uhtred]

So, any updates? Has your player tried this tactic again? How did it go?

She hasn't tried it since; I think she knows that future Boss encounters will be prepared for the maneuver. While I hate metagaming, and this is legitimately what she built the character to do, one-shotting a BBEG is carrying my trust a bit far. She has, however, grown very, very fond of wrecking absolutely everything around her and using the destroyed scenery to murder mooks, there was a pretty epic curb-stomp battle between her and a Wall Elemental that thrashed her pretty soundly before the party Artificer tossed her a Demolition Weapon Augment Crystal that she attached to a nearby adamantine dungeon door. The fight was over pretty quickly after that. I totally foresee her trying stuff like that in future boss fights, and will possibly even allow it. :)


Am I the only one that makes all the BBEG spellcasters use contingency with a teleport effect (dimension step, dimension jump, etc.) for grapple? Or the contingency on a Wall of Iron that circles around him whenever an enemy gets within 20 ft, of which he just teleports out of afterwards. Nothing is more annoying than a spellcaster being pinned and rendered utterly useless.

While I can see the point of the encounter I usually spend a great deal of time with the BBEG and their encounters. One of them had the group enter a room where they though that he was (programmed image) and then they got blasted by fire traps and symbols of pain. Then after being harried by all these permanent spells that Wizards have they charged into the actual throne room only to have more programmed images, teleportation circles and contingency spells screw them up.

I do think that you handled the mechanics somewhat properly. Since the spellcaster didn't get to his turn yet in combat then I'd consider him flat-footed but not surprised. "At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed." but since he's talking to them he obviously knows that they are there.

To clear up some confusion about the BBEG Elven Warmage, the poor guy's been taking a lot of flak for being unprepared for being grappled by a giant angry Goliath, and for not having any emergency spells or items or feats that would have allowed him a quick getaway. Someone already pointed out that Warmages don't get access to utility spells, but nobody's mentioned the Eccentric Learning alternate class feature that lets him learn a new spell every few levels from any Sorcerer/Wizard spell school, which I certainly utilized. Unfortunately, *I* did not foresee the grapple-smash, so his utility spells were the ubiquitous Mage Armor, Fly, and Telekinesis, all of which have Somatic components (and Fly may not have protected the poor bugger from her crazy vertical jumping abilities.) When he reappears, he'll definitely have some items that deal level or ability damage. I may throw an Undead template on him, even if that's a bit cliche. :)

[Gwendol]

I know the feeling. Not all enemies can be Schroedinger's wizard.

It sounds like you have a lot of fun playing!