Mithral fullplate?

[NikitaDarkstar]

So I got a quick question here. If you make a mithral fullplate do you need heavy armor proficiency to use it? Or is Medium enough?

[Baerdog7]

Are you playing 3.5 or Pathfinder?

In 3.5, I am pretty sure that while mithral armor is treated as medium armor for the purposes of determining movement and other limitations, you still need heavy armor proficiency to wear it without taking its armor check penalty to attack rolls and strength- and dexterity-based rolls. However, since the armor is mithral the penalty would only be -3 instead of -6. At least, this is how I'd rule it as a DM.

In Pathfinder it is stated on page 155 of the core rulebook that you still need heavy armor proficiency to use mithral full plate without penalty.

[NikitaDarkstar]

D&D 3.5 and I was hoping to get out of sinking a feat into heavy armor proficiency. (But on the upside, I had issues finding feats I wanted anyway XD).

[Balmas]

In D&D 3.5, Mithril armor is treated as if it were one weight class lighter. So if you're proficient with medium armor, go wild.

[Baerdog7]

In D&D 3.5, Mithril armor is treated as if it were one weight class lighter. So if you're proficient with medium armor, go wild.

Hmm, I didn't read it as being treated like medium armor for proficiency as well. Is there an errata that clarifies the issue?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

"Most mithral armors are one category lighter than normal for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium,"

Other limitations would include class features which are deactivated by armor categories, such as Barbarian fast movement and Ranger combat style. It is quite possible that the designers intended for 'other limitations' to include proficiency, and in my experience most of the groups I've played with have gone with that. Just open up your Player's Handbook II to the Ranger section, and take a look at Soveliss in his Mithral Breastplate....

[mattie_p]

From the SRD, mithral full plate of speed:


Speed while wearing a suit of mithral full plate is 20 feet for Medium creatures, or 15 feet for Small. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 25%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +3, and an armor check penalty of -3. It is considered medium armor and weighs 25 pounds.

No notes about anything else, it is considered medium armor. And while what Biffoniacus_Furiou says has merit, monster and NPC statblocks are notoriously bad at times, so take them with a grain of salt.

Do note that the 3.5 FAQ page 53-54 concurs with this assessment, and quotes NPC stat blocks as evidence as well.

[TypoNinja]

(But on the upside, I had issues finding feats I wanted anyway XD).

Holy hell, how'd you manage that? I've always got a list a mile long I have to narrow down.

[ahenobarbi]

/thread


D&D 3.5 and I was hoping to get out of sinking a feat into heavy armor proficiency. (But on the upside, I had issues finding feats I wanted anyway XD).


Holy hell, how'd you manage that? I've always got a list a mile long I have to narrow down.

I either have a lots of feats I want and have problem choosing which not to get or I just think a build is good enough with no feats and have a problem what to do with them (usually before I learn how many wonderful options are available fo the build via feats).

[tyckspoon]

By practice and example in almost every book where it's relevant, mithral reduces the category of armor for purposes of proficiency as well as everything else. The only place I've ever found an explicit reference is in the Magic Item Compendium; the start of the Armor category (pages 5-6) has a section summarizing the effects of the DMG's Special Materials, and when it gets to Mithral the table for it has one of those little special rules footnotes (like the ones on weapons indicating Reach, Tripping, etc) that specifically says the mithral benefit counts for proficiency as well.

[Kuulvheysoon]

By practice and example in almost every book where it's relevant, mithral reduces the category of armor for purposes of proficiency as well as everything else. The only place I've ever found an explicit reference is in the Magic Item Compendium; the start of the Armor category (pages 5-6) has a section summarizing the effects of the DMG's Special Materials, and when it gets to Mithral the table for it has one of those little special rules footnotes (like the ones on weapons indicating Reach, Tripping, etc) that specifically says the mithral benefit counts for proficiency as well.

Thanks, I'll keep this in mind. I actually lost points in ICO XXXII because of this, and it's good to know that I was right regarding mithral heavy armor and lack of it's proficiencies.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Holy hell, how'd you manage that? I've always got a list a mile long I have to narrow down.

Favored Soul going mainly melee and very limited amount of books. The feats that would be cool options are in Other Books.

I asked my DM to give his opinion too, but now if he disagrees I can point him towards the right books. Thanks guys. :)

(Besides just the price of a mithral fullplate is enough to be a bit of a penalty on it's own.)

[Turk Mannion]

What is the cost of mithril full plate?

[Vegan Zombie]

What is the cost of mithril full plate?

I think just the mithril part is 9000 gp, plus 1500 for the full plate, plus the MW cost. So over 10000 gp for non magic armor (that still limits your speed).

[Philistine]

The MW cost is explicitly included in the cost of making an item out of mithral, so it's "only" 10500 gp for non-magical mithral full plate.

[Darrin]

I think just the mithril part is 9000 gp, plus 1500 for the full plate, plus the MW cost. So over 10000 gp for non magic armor (that still limits your speed).

Note that Darkleaf (A&EG, ECS, RotW) provides nearly the same benefit but is considerably cheaper.

[Keld Denar]

RotW has a Mithril Breastplate on the equipment table under the "light armor" category. That's worth something...

[herrhauptmann]

In D&D 3.5, Mithril armor is treated as if it were one weight class lighter. So if you're proficient with medium armor, go wild.

I always hated that about mithral in 3.5.
I'm a thief, I can't wear that adamant/steel breastplate. I'm not smart enough to know how it buckles or anything.
But that mithral one, made by the same smith in the same style as the other one, that I know how to wear.

The pathfinder rule is actually one of the first houserules I introduced in my 3.5 games.

[Hirax]

A tooth of Savnok (Tome of Magic, page 79) will eliminate speed penalties from armor for a meager 2,000 GP.

[NikitaDarkstar]

A tooth of Savnok (Tome of Magic, page 79) will eliminate speed penalties from armor for a meager 2,000 GP.

Sadly not allowed that source, almsot with the Races books. We're limited to PBH 1&2, DMG 1&2, the complete books, libris mortis and Magic Item compendium. Still a respectable amount of books, but it removes the option for some of fancier things.

[Answerer]

I always hated that about mithral in 3.5.
I'm a thief, I can't wear that adamant/steel breastplate. I'm not smart enough to know how it buckles or anything.
But that mithral one, made by the same smith in the same style as the other one, that I know how to wear.
What?

You most certainly can wear a breastplate. You just aren't trained to fight while wearing something so heavy. It reduces your mobility and your attempts to move like you normally would in something lighter do little more than tire you out while providing little defensive benefit. Everything you do feels awkward.

Mithral, weighing much less, is not nearly as restrictive. Your moves work normally, plus you get the benefit of a solid plate rather than just chain.

[deuxhero]

All the licensed 3.5 cRPGs have made Mithral's "other limitation" include proficiency if it means anything.

[herrhauptmann]

What?

You most certainly can wear a breastplate. You just aren't trained to fight while wearing something so heavy. It reduces your mobility and your attempts to move like you normally would in something lighter do little more than tire you out while providing little defensive benefit. Everything you do feels awkward.

Mithral, weighing much less, is not nearly as restrictive. Your moves work normally, plus you get the benefit of a solid plate rather than just chain.

Fine: "Not smart enought to wear it correctly without penalty."
I'm not referring to class abilities activated by certain types of armor. Just the proficiency feats themselves.
A wizard can fight with a longsword without taking Martial Weapon Profiency. He's just bad at it.
The rogue or whoever, can WEAR that heavier armor without the feat, even if it interferes with class abilities. They just take penalties to most things because don't know how to wear it and move properly.

What do you do when you want your character to carry a shield, and isn't proficient with it? You spend a feat, or multiclass. In either case, your character now knows how to fight with a shield.
It doesn't work that way with the armor though. You want a breastplate? Instead of multiclassing or spending a feat, you make it out of mithral. Suddenly you know how to wear/move in it without a problem.


Also, don't tell me it's a matter of weight. If it were, a rogue could wear mithral full plate without penalty, because it's the same weight as a regular chain shirt.

Nor do I see why you have a problem with a houserule I enacted years ago. Turns out, it's one of the pathfinder rules.

[mattie_p]

What do you do when you want your character to carry a shield, and isn't proficient with it? You spend a feat, or multiclass. In either case, your character now knows how to fight with a shield.

Or the character gets a darkwood shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#darkwoodShield). With no armor check penalty, feel free to apply the ACP for nonproficiency to all attack rolls and str/dex skill checks. Its mithral for your shield, but one quarter the price.

[Ashtagon]

I always hated that about mithral in 3.5.
I'm a thief, I can't wear that adamant/steel breastplate. I'm not smart enough to know how it buckles or anything.
But that mithral one, made by the same smith in the same style as the other one, that I know how to wear.

The pathfinder rule is actually one of the first houserules I introduced in my 3.5 games.

It's nothing to do with knowing the buckles, or "smart enough to wear it correctly". The feats reflect the physical training requirements to move in it freely. Mithril, being lighter, is easier to move in.

It;'s a combination of weight and how much the physical armour restricts freedom of movement.