[Essentials Scout] How do I use this character in combat?

[Kiero]

By which I mean what should be my tactics in combat, not how do I roleplay him.

We're returning to our 4e Icewind Dale game next week, something I'm really looking forward to. Last time around Blend was a Core two-weapon Ranger, the rockstar stomping about the battlefield exploding nova-strikes on enemies.

This time around I want to try out the Scout, the fluff actually fits the character a lot better than the Ranger ever did, and the Knacks and Aspects are really cool. Sure, no nova any more, but my DPR is a lot better.

Anyway, this is my character, mechanically:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Blend, level 8
Human, Ranger (Scout)
Ranger Wilderness Knacks Option: Ambush Expertise (Ranger)
Ranger Wilderness Knacks Option: Mountain Guide (Ranger)
Two-Weapon Style Option: Flashing Blade Mastery
Level 4 Wilderness Knack Option: Watchful Rest (Ranger)
Level 8 Wilderness Knack Option: Wilderness Tracker (Ranger)
Human Power Selection Option: Heroic Effort
Inherent Bonuses
Occupation - Criminal (+2 to Stealth)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 14, DEX 18, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 10

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 14, CON 14, DEX 14, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 10


AC: 23 Fort: 21 Ref: 23 Will: 19
HP: 61 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 15

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +12, Athletics +11, Endurance +10, Nature +13, Perception +13, Stealth +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +6, Heal +6, History +4, Insight +6, Intimidate +4, Religion +4, Streetwise +4, Thievery +7

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Human Racial Power: Heroic Effort
Ranger Utility: Aspect of the Lurking Spider
Ranger Utility: Aspect of the Charging Ram
Ranger Attack: Dual Weapon Attack
Multiple Class Attack: Power Strike
Ranger Utility: Aspect of the Cunning Fox
Ranger Utility 2: Invigorating Stride
Ranger Utility 5: Reactive Shift
Ranger Utility 6: Weave Through the Fray

FEATS
Level 1: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 1: Master at Arms
Level 2: Two-Weapon Defense
Level 4: Improved Defenses
Level 6: Wasteland Wanderer
Level 8: Winter Walker

ITEMS
Hide Armor
Boots of Striding
Short sword
Longbow
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier)
Vanguard Battleaxe +2


He's now Charge-focused, so I guess I should be aiming to use my Standard Action to Charge as much as possible? And using my Move to shift away from enemies so I can re-Charge? Is there a minimum distance for a charge?

When things get hot, Invigorating Stride to catch a breather, then charge right back in?

One of the other PCs will possibly be a Warlord (the other two are a Wizard and Swordmage, with an unknown potential fifth) doing all the friendly-controller-y stuff, which should facilitate my disengage-charge tactics.

Thoughts?

[Badgerish]

You must move at least 2 squares as part of a charge action, so re-charging the same target every turn is difficult.

There are some magic boots that give you a shift after a charge, those are gold with Aspect of the Charging Ram (vs melee enemies at least)

tactics:
1) charge different targets each turn, ping-ponging about the battlefield
2) charge a target w/Ram then switch Aspect and take them apart in melee

notes:
1) if the fight starts at range 40, get some Longbow attacks going. not your forte but you are still good at it.
2) you are a tough-ish striker, but avoid charging right into the middle of things. Go for the back-ranks where possible

[Kiero]

You must move at least 2 squares as part of a charge action, so re-charging the same target every turn is difficult.

There are some magic boots that give you a shift after a charge, those are gold with Aspect of the Charging Ram (vs melee enemies at least)

tactics:
1) charge different targets each turn, ping-ponging about the battlefield
2) charge a target w/Ram then switch Aspect and take them apart in melee

notes:
1) if the fight starts at range 40, get some Longbow attacks going. not your forte but you are still good at it.
2) you are a tough-ish striker, but avoid charging right into the middle of things. Go for the back-ranks where possible

Thanks, I wasn't sure how far it was. Between Cunning Fox and some of my Encounter powers, shifting out 2 or 3 squares is possible. Then Minor to switch back to Charging Ram and charge.

That gives another option if I don't want to stick around. Lurking Spider isn't bad for extra damage when flanking (which I aim to do a lot of if I'm not ping-ponging). However, I do think Cunning Fox is going to get more use than Pack Wolf, which is why I didn't take it.

Range is a good point, last time around I got good utility out of ranged Twin Strikes. Our combats are mostly outdoors and start along way away. Shame I can't double-shot any more (not without dropping Heroic Effort), but it's still alright to open a combat.

Back ranks or behind the enemy's front line?

[obryn]

Lurking Spider is a pretty good way to get some extra damage. While Charging Ram only gives you damage bonuses on the charge itself, Lurking Spider works for every single attack you make.

But, with that said, Charging Ram is pretty awesome. Proning on a charge is great, and the no-OA clause is extremely helpful - especially if you don't mind spreading out your damage a bit. Charging the same target over and over again is hard; charging different ones every round is easy.

-O

[Chambers]

Throw and Stab (http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/power.aspx?id=10593) is a good power to use for Human Scouts, using the Human extra at-will to pick it up. Use a dagger in your off-hand and you can make three attacks a round, though only two against the same target. Midnight Blade Student (http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/feat.aspx?id=2359) will let you make the Throw attack against Reflex instead of Armor Class.

It also helps with your movement. As part of Throw and Stab you move your speed. So if you're adjacent to someone, you can shift away as a minor action, Throw at someone in the back rank (like a spellcaster artillery) without provoking an Opportunity Attack, and then move your speed and make a melee basic, which will trigger your Dual Weapon Attack.

[Kiero]

Lurking Spider is a pretty good way to get some extra damage. While Charging Ram only gives you damage bonuses on the charge itself, Lurking Spider works for every single attack you make.

But, with that said, Charging Ram is pretty awesome. Proning on a charge is great, and the no-OA clause is extremely helpful - especially if you don't mind spreading out your damage a bit. Charging the same target over and over again is hard; charging different ones every round is easy.

-O

Indeed, I'm thinking Lurking Spider is better than Pack Wolf because it's less conditional. Ie Combat Advantage is easier to get than everyone in the party mobbing one opponent in melee.

But ultimately Charging Ram + Vanguard Axe = Ping-Pong of Death. The charge is +15 to hit, doing 1d10+1d8+11 damage, if that hits another roll (once per turn) of +15 to hit doing 1d6+9 (Dual Weapon Strike), with the option of doing another 1d10 once per encounter (Power Strike).


Throw and Stab (http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/power.aspx?id=10593) is a good power to use for Human Scouts, using the Human extra at-will to pick it up. Use a dagger in your off-hand and you can make three attacks a round, though only two against the same target. Midnight Blade Student (http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/feat.aspx?id=2359) will let you make the Throw attack against Reflex instead of Armor Class.

That seems a bit of a diversion from the existing charge focus. It also downgrades my offhand damage by one die-step and requires me to have a supply of daggers for throwing.


It also helps with your movement. As part of Throw and Stab you move your speed. So if you're adjacent to someone, you can shift away as a minor action, Throw at someone in the back rank (like a spellcaster artillery) without provoking an Opportunity Attack, and then move your speed and make a melee basic, which will trigger your Dual Weapon Attack.

A charge + Dual Weapon Strike (see above) does more damage and only requires two successful hits to pull it off. Remember I've got a Vanguard Axe which gives me +1d8 damage on a charge (along with Charging Ram giving +2 damage), which is better than the extra roll (which may miss) to do 1d4+9 (?) with a stab.

To be honest, if I'm going to take a bonus at-will, I'd rather take Twin Strike to beef up my long-ranged capability (two longbow attacks with +13 to hit doing 1d10+2 damage - last time around good for thinning minions ranks). A lot of our combats start at extreme range given we're outdoors most of the time.

[obryn]

Something to think about for the future, if you can manage it without diluting your character concept too much...

Down the road, especially at paragon, you might want to investigate the joys of light blades. There's two ways to do this...

(1) A rapier
(2) The Spiked Chain Training feat, which gives you a +2/2d4 Reach Light Blade/Flail

You can't get the Vanguard enchantment then, but Deft Blade is pretty amazing when your second attack is is predicated on the success of your first. There's tons of other ways to cheese out your charges. Light Blade Expertise (replacing Master at Arms) will bump your damage pretty well, synergizing nicely with Lurking Spider. Also, you'd only need one Weapon Focus, then, for a solid bump.

-O

[Kiero]

Something to think about for the future, if you can manage it without diluting your character concept too much...

Down the road, especially at paragon, you might want to investigate the joys of light blades. There's two ways to do this...

(1) A rapier
(2) The Spiked Chain Training feat, which gives you a +2/2d4 Reach Light Blade/Flail

You can't get the Vanguard enchantment then, but Deft Blade is pretty amazing when your second attack is is predicated on the success of your first. There's tons of other ways to cheese out your charges. Light Blade Expertise (replacing Master at Arms) will bump your damage pretty well, synergizing nicely with Lurking Spider. Also, you'd only need one Weapon Focus, then, for a solid bump.

-O

Feels like a dilution, really. He's always used axes and his people do too. Taking Flashing Blade rather than Spinning Axe was itself a slight dilution, recognising that accuracy matters a lot more to a Scout than a Ranger (given the requirement for a hit to pull of DWS).

I reskinned the shortsword as a big hunting knife and that seems to fit the character. Plus the addition of the Primal energies justifies a bit of an alteration to his fighting style. I'd prefer to take Spinning Axe (which might then make Throw and Stab a bit more viable - and allow Axe Expertise), but every +1 to hit is a big deal. I learned that with the number of times I missed with my Ranger.

All that said, the CB does have Vanguard Rapier, so it remains an option for later.

But spiked anything (along with double-anything) are some of my personal redlines I won't cross. No matter how effective it might be, I won't use them.

[obryn]

I can certainly respect that!

Scout is a solid class. I hope you have a blast with it! (And my mistake on the vanguard enchantment. I was thinking avalanche, but the more I think about it, that may be hammer-only anyway.)

-O

[Kiero]

I can certainly respect that!

Scout is a solid class. I hope you have a blast with it! (And my mistake on the vanguard enchantment. I was thinking avalanche, but the more I think about it, that may be hammer-only anyway.)

-O

It was worth the thought, though. I haven't really considered what I might do if we hit Paragon. This run is 4-5 sessions and we're apparently halfway to 9th (we don't track XP ourselves in any detailed kind of way, the GM just has a rough gauge).

I just asked the GM about two things: whether we'll have a budget for our non-signature items and if we're going to try out Themes this time.

On the latter, I like the look of Explorer for adding yet more party-buffing goodness while outdoors.

[Tiniere]

This is more a fluffy comment than anything else, but I thought you might like it just the same.

If you are fighting with a Dagger & Axe, there was an old 3.5 edition fighting style that fit the ranger "stereotype" pretty well. It was called Bear Fang, let you pull in enemies to very close quarters if you got both your weapons into them. (It used dagger and axe specifically)

Just thought you'd find it interesting :)

[obryn]

Out of curiosity, I threw together a little human spiked chain scout. It's kind of impressive the sorts of tricks you can pull by having a flail that's also a light blade that's also a reach weapon.

Hit with an MBA? Slide them. Instead of Power Attack? Knock them prone and get an OA if they stand up. Good damage and good tricks.

-O

[Kiero]

Slight update to mechanics, we're considering Themes and a budget alongside fixed number of items for magical gear:


Essentials-Blend, level 8
Human, Ranger (Scout)
Ranger Wilderness Knacks Option: Ambush Expertise (Ranger)
Ranger Wilderness Knacks Option: Mountain Guide (Ranger)
Two-Weapon Style Option: Flashing Blade Mastery
Level 4 Wilderness Knack Option: Watchful Rest (Ranger)
Level 8 Wilderness Knack Option: Wilderness Tracker (Ranger)
Human Power Selection Option: Bonus At-Will Power
Inherent Bonuses
Occupation - Criminal (+2 to Stealth)
Theme: Explorer

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 14, DEX 18, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 10

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 14, CON 14, DEX 14, INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 10


AC: 25 Fort: 21 Ref: 24 Will: 19
HP: 61 Surges: 9 Surge Value: 15

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +12, Athletics +11, Endurance +12, Nature +13, Perception +13, Stealth +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +6, Heal +6, History +4, Insight +6, Intimidate +4, Religion +4, Streetwise +4, Thievery +7

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Explorer Utility: Surefooted Stride
Ranger Utility: Aspect of the Lurking Spider
Ranger Utility: Aspect of the Charging Ram
Ranger Attack: Dual Weapon Attack
Multiple Class Attack: Power Strike
Ranger Utility: Aspect of the Cunning Fox
Ranger Attack 1: Twin Strike
Ranger Utility 2: Invigorating Stride
Ranger Utility 5: Reactive Shift
Ranger Utility 6: Weave Through the Fray

FEATS
Level 1: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 1: Master at Arms
Level 2: Two-Weapon Defense
Level 4: Improved Defenses
Level 6: Wasteland Wanderer
Level 8: Winter Walker

ITEMS
Boots of Striding *
Longbow
Vanguard Battleaxe +2 *
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier)
Marauder's Hide Armor +2 *
Rhythm Blade Short sword +1


Asterisked ones are "allowance" items, rest are bought. Tempted to change the armour to leather for the boost to four of my Skills.

Also thinking about whether or not my saves are more important than AC - perhaps an amulet to raise them all by one? Either Physical Resistance or Mental Resistance.


This is more a fluffy comment than anything else, but I thought you might like it just the same.

If you are fighting with a Dagger & Axe, there was an old 3.5 edition fighting style that fit the ranger "stereotype" pretty well. It was called Bear Fang, let you pull in enemies to very close quarters if you got both your weapons into them. (It used dagger and axe specifically)

Just thought you'd find it interesting :)

Interesting indeed. :smallsmile: