A fear of ankle-biters...?

[Deepbluediver]

...Or a chronic case of cankles?


So I was clicking throught the PathFinder SRD, looking at the pictures (which are gorgeous and I absolutely love), and I happened to notice that just about every single humanoid has an outift that hides and the shape of their ankles. (Yes, this is kind of pointless, I just thought it was funny).

For every class picture, there is some kind of boot, armor, or leggings that makes it looks like the leg runs straight from the knee into the foot, with no muscular definition at all.

The reigning champion of this quirk is, IMO, the Gunslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger) although the Paladin and the Barbarian aren't far behind.

[Spiryt]

Maybe artists just cannot draw them to save his/her life? :smalltongue:

Anyway, I don't like PF art at all in general, so I may be biased.

Exececution, detail level, and general 'quality' is very good, but the whole style is just ugly to me.

[Siosilvar]

Okay, a lot of them look like they have hooves. That's... something, alright. Certainly explains part of why the art looks so weird to me. I'm going with "ankles are really hard to draw", since they are.

EDIT: If I ever end up playing Pathfinder, I'm playing a Satyr, just to make fun of this. :smallbiggrin:

[Wyntonian]

Yeah, I've never really been a huge fan of PF art, everything just seems too cluttered and complex for its own good. I never noticed how the gunslinger has hooves, though...

[sonofzeal]

I kind of like PF art, even though I tend to stick with 3.5 as my system of choice. You have to admit, 3.5 has had some pretty terrible art over the year. PF art may have its flaws, but I think it's generally an improvement.

[Honest Tiefling]

I think a good number of PF artists need a bucket of ice water dumped on their heads, but I am biased against boobs and ankle-pants. Well, anklepants for women. No, I take that back, men would look ridiculous anyway.

Just me, or do these gals remind anyone else of legwarmers? I'm imagining the iconics (Or at least the women...) doing the whole routine from 'Love is a battlefield'. All they need is the make up from the paladin from 3.5! Maybe the hair from Larry Elmore art...

[grarrrg]

*in before "Rob Liefeld"*

[Worira]

*in before "Rob Liefeld"*

This is much funnier to me when I think of it without the quote marks. I just picture Rob Liefeld rushing into this thread eager to post, then spotting that post, slumping over, and slinking away dejectedly.

[hiryuu]

Crack open your 3.5 Monster Manual. Look at the art for the zombie and the mummy. Or the Assassin in the Dungeon Master's guide. Wayne Reynolds.

Same artist who does most of the Pathfinder art you're talking about. Guy loves drawing feet. Really weird feet. He's also a huge fan of angry underbites. Underbites for everyone! And randomly scattered clothing details from about seven or eight cultures (which, to be fair, is what I expect adventurer clothes to look like; you need to patch that bit of clothing, and you're in like a new country every month/going through an obscure adulthood ritual/rummaging through a crypt/punching spiders).

On a totally unrelated note, having anything bare from the knee down when you're wandering around in the woods, caverns, ruined buildings, swamps, and even open plains is asking for trouble. There comes a point where people don't wear clothes for modesty. They wear clothes to keep the scenery from cutting them up, burrowing into them, infecting their skin with nasty, and so on, and it just so happens that a majority of the nasty that adventurers worry about happen to also live in things you don't want your feet in, either.

[Honest Tiefling]

That is a good point, but doesn't explain the bare thighs and battle-pantyhose.
Cower before my bare naked creamy thighs! Also, how does the gunslinger not trip over her own...Er. Legwarmers? Spats? Pants? Whatever they are.

[Spiryt]

Crack open your 3.5 Monster Manual. Look at the art for the zombie and the mummy. Or the Assassin in the Dungeon Master's guide. Wayne Reynolds.

Same artist who does most of the Pathfinder art you're talking about. Guy loves drawing feet. Really weird feet. He's also a huge fan of angry underbites. Underbites for everyone! And randomly scattered clothing details from about seven or eight cultures (which, to be fair, is what I expect adventurer clothes to look like; you need to patch that bit of clothing, and you're in like a new country every month/going through an obscure adulthood ritual/rummaging through a crypt/punching spiders).

On a totally unrelated note, having anything bare from the knee down when you're wandering around in the woods, caverns, ruined buildings, swamps, and even open plains is asking for trouble. There comes a point where people don't wear clothes for modesty. They wear clothes to keep the scenery from cutting them up, burrowing into them, infecting their skin with nasty, and so on, and it just so happens that a majority of the nasty that adventurers worry about happen to also live in things you don't want your feet in, either.

Since this clothing from PF generally makes very little sense, explaining it by making sense in one, particular and somehow minor detail is kind of wonky.

Like fishnet that can't really catch fish but at least doesn't catch a lot of algae and stuff either. :smallbiggrin::smallwink:

Other than that, people that live in places when everything bites, itches, and is moldy and generally icky still tend to look like that:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/22/article-1368710-0B481CD600000578-694_468x461.jpg

[Crasical]

3.5 can start throwing stones when it works off the karmic debt left over from 2e era artwork. :smallbiggrin:

[Rejakor]

Well at least pathfinder has managed to make a clean break with the terrible terrible fantasy art of the past by artists who, as far as I can tell, have never seen a woman OR an action pose, ever, which at least some 3.5 artwork was similar to in it's various wooden, emotionless, pasteboard like respects.

Also, my hidden ankle fetish senses are tingling.

[Spiryt]

3.5 can start throwing stones when it works off the karmic debt left over from 2e era artwork. :smallbiggrin:

Any examples?

not to familiar with 2e era. :smallbiggrin:

Where's this from, BTW?

http://tobiasmastgrave.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/dungeons-and-dragons-rulebook-closeup.jpg

[Crasical]

Any examples?

not to familiar with 2e era. :smallbiggrin:

Where's this from, BTW?

http://tobiasmastgrave.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/dungeons-and-dragons-rulebook-closeup.jpg

The stuff I was thinking of was released a full 2 years earlier than 2nd edition, apparently. Whoops. Still, take a look.

An Enemy (http://gyazo.com/dbfbba71774c2218fcf37f7634d2772d.png).

Our (http://gyazo.com/ab9adedf0d02ccfe4057fa20705ab94b.png) Heroes (http://gyazo.com/17390e269e55cedc87d58f34c856ea0c.png).

An action scene (http://gyazo.com/6f1b783678cdf8dc0a5f129c0af78095.png).

[Scarlet-Devil]

The stuff I was thinking of was released a full 2 years earlier than 2nd edition, apparently. Whoops. Still, take a look.

An Enemy (http://gyazo.com/dbfbba71774c2218fcf37f7634d2772d.png).

Our (http://gyazo.com/ab9adedf0d02ccfe4057fa20705ab94b.png) Heroes (http://gyazo.com/17390e269e55cedc87d58f34c856ea0c.png).

An action scene (http://gyazo.com/6f1b783678cdf8dc0a5f129c0af78095.png).

Gwahahaha! D&D's come a long way. :smallbiggrin:

[ahenobarbi]

The stuff I was thinking of was released a full 2 years earlier than 2nd edition, apparently. Whoops. Still, take a look.

An Enemy (http://gyazo.com/dbfbba71774c2218fcf37f7634d2772d.png).

Our (http://gyazo.com/ab9adedf0d02ccfe4057fa20705ab94b.png) Heroes (http://gyazo.com/17390e269e55cedc87d58f34c856ea0c.png).

An action scene (http://gyazo.com/6f1b783678cdf8dc0a5f129c0af78095.png).

I want moar :smallbiggrin:!

[grarrrg]

Where's this from, BTW?

http://tobiasmastgrave.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/dungeons-and-dragons-rulebook-closeup.jpg
An Enemy (http://gyazo.com/dbfbba71774c2218fcf37f7634d2772d.png).

Our (http://gyazo.com/ab9adedf0d02ccfe4057fa20705ab94b.png) Heroes (http://gyazo.com/17390e269e55cedc87d58f34c856ea0c.png).

An action scene (http://gyazo.com/6f1b783678cdf8dc0a5f129c0af78095.png).

Back to Liefeld.
Again.
The only reason "Pathfinder Feet Suck" is because they actually attempted to SHOW them.

In all of the above pictures, only _1_ has any real feet/boots showing. Yes, the Bull has hooves, but hooves are not feet. Same for the diaper-wearing demon-guy-thing, actual hooves, not feet (the picture overall may be hideous, but at least they are decent as far as hooves go).

And in the _1_ picture that has feet, they are acceptably drawn feet, that actually look like feet.

Just so the uninitiated know what I'm talking about, I present,
Rob's "awesome" feet:
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1070318/25.jpghttp://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1185108/past19.jpg
Or just Google "Rob Liefeld" and click on the first result...

[sonofzeal]

The stuff I was thinking of was released a full 2 years earlier than 2nd edition, apparently. Whoops. Still, take a look.

An Enemy (http://gyazo.com/dbfbba71774c2218fcf37f7634d2772d.png).

Our (http://gyazo.com/ab9adedf0d02ccfe4057fa20705ab94b.png) Heroes (http://gyazo.com/17390e269e55cedc87d58f34c856ea0c.png).

An action scene (http://gyazo.com/6f1b783678cdf8dc0a5f129c0af78095.png).
Epic! I actually prefer that over 3.5's art!

[Arcanist]

3.5 can start throwing stones when it works off the karmic debt left over from 2e era artwork. :smallbiggrin:

*Looks at Netheril: Empire of Magic* ... There is no redemption... :smallannoyed:

I must say however 4e art is pretty kick ass :smallamused: of course my system of preference is still 3.5e but eh... :smalltongue:

[White_Drake]

Yeah, I own the 4e books, and while I loathe the system, the artwork and presentation is decent, although nothing compared to the new HackMaster books.

[Inferno]

I'm mostly a fan of PF's artwork, with its super detailed adventurers outfits and all. Its the PF goblins that bother me. Those are just wrong.

[deuxhero]

I really liked this (http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderTales/PZO8500-Salim.jpg) piece of art. Good design (it looks good and practical) and no obvious drawing mistakes (that is coming from guy who can't draw whatsoever though).

[Spiryt]

I really liked this (http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderTales/PZO8500-Salim.jpg) piece of art. Good design (it looks good and practical) and no obvious drawing mistakes (that is coming from guy who can't draw whatsoever though).

Yeah, that actually looks like nice elaborate fantasy dress that tries to tell how much of a pimp the wearer is.

Most PF art depicts guys who have wrapped very random pieces of leather/cloth to their bodies and bound it all with random strings, chains, jewelery, keys, diapers, cases, sticks, spikes, yarn, and hell knows what else.

Kind of like typhoon went trough one of those "Everything 5 pounds" shop, but somehow leaving people standing inside intact.

[Ashtagon]

I really liked this (http://paizo.com/image/content/PathfinderTales/PZO8500-Salim.jpg) piece of art. Good design (it looks good and practical) and no obvious drawing mistakes (that is coming from guy who can't draw whatsoever though).

Obvious drawing mistake: He is wearing a long skirt (or possibly a "kilt"). Floor length skirts are ideal for tripping in. Certainly they aren't good for fighting in.

What the artist may have been thinking of are hakama, which resemble nothing so much as very very baggy trousers. Almost any pose other than "legs together" will show the split between the two legs.

http://www.absolutjapon.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/cc3.jpg

[Bharg]

I don't find anything wrong with the PF art to be honest. I think it's original and often portrays heros how they would actually look like.
That is extremely over-encumbered (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/_/rsrc/1286223100640/classes/core-classes/ranger/Harsk.jpg?height=400&width=333).

Link that might be kind of relevant to the OP. Oh, I hope it's ok to post this here. Otherwise I will remove it immediately.
(http://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/t1mib/im_an_art_directorgraphic_designer_for/)

[grarrrg]

Most PF art depicts guys who have wrapped very random pieces of leather/cloth to their bodies and bound it all with random strings, chains, jewelery, keys, diapers, cases, sticks, spikes, yarn, and hell knows what else.

This is semi-justifiable.
You explore a dungeon, you find [magic item], determine it's (probably) not cursed, you put on [magic item], repeat.
For the most part it doesn't matter what it looks like, so long as it does whatever it is that it does.

[Spiryt]

This is semi-justifiable.
You explore a dungeon, you find [magic item], determine it's (probably) not cursed, you put on [magic item], repeat.
For the most part it doesn't matter what it looks like, so long as it does whatever it is that it does.

Well, from the part of mechanics, I guess it coudl have some sense, other that there's like, ~15 slots for magic items, instead of one for every square inch. :smallbiggrin:

From the point of actual "imagine your character" it would be impossible to move or do anything with some random trash hanging all over your body.




Obvious drawing mistake: He is wearing a long skirt (or possibly a "kilt"). Floor length skirts are ideal for tripping in. Certainly they aren't good for fighting in.

What the artist may have been thinking of are hakama, which resemble nothing so much as very very baggy trousers. Almost any pose other than "legs together" will show the split between the two legs.

http://www.absolutjapon.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/cc3.jpg


Uh, artist doesn't have to think about any specific clothing at all, it's all fantasy.

And people moved around and fought in plenty of impractical clothes. Guy looks to be pretty much in 'civilian' attire, when one rarely does everything for the purpose of combat chances optimization....

Aside from the fact that plenty of warriors in fighting situation had worn some long 'skirt like' clothes to combat anyway, hakama were in fact undivided in a lot of cases too.

[Crasical]

2315 - +1 Longsword
100 - Hand Crossbow
10 - Xbow Bolts (100)
100 - Drow Poison Bolt(1)
50 - Fire bolt
40 - Acid Bolt
20 - Net

1500 - +1 Dragonhide Breastplate
1000 - +1 Cloak of Resistance
75 - Ioun Torch
Ring of Disguise Self (Drow Only)

25 - Scroll of Interrogation
25 - Scroll of Sanctuary
25 - Scroll of Protection from Evil
25 - Scroll of Remove Fear
25 - Scroll of Disguise Self
150 - Elixer of Love
375 - Wand of Create water
500 - Whip Feather Token
500 - Elixer of Truth

20 - Alchemical Solvent
50 - Antiplague
50 - Antitoxin
50 - Masterwork Backpack
.1- Bedroll
.2- Winter Blanket
50 - Book, Footprint
30 - Chain (10ft)
10 - Compass
1 - False Bottom Cup
.1- Fishhook
.6- Board Game
5 - Bachelor Snuff (5)
25 - Holy Symbol of Sarenrae
85 - Skeleton Key
30 - Manacles (Small and medium)
5 - Common Perfume (5)
10 - Silk rope (50ft)
2 - Grappling Arrow
1 - Scroll Case


This is the list of all the equipment my PF character is carrying, and she is not at all unusual insofar as my characters go. I imagine having that much gear probably contributes to the 'rummage sale' look.

EDIT: Also I'm shocked no-one has mentioned that there actually is an 'ankle biter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ankle-biter-combat-goblin)' feat in PF.

[Ashtagon]

Well, from the part of mechanics, I guess it coudl have some sense, other that there's like, ~15 slots for magic items, instead of one for every square inch. :smallbiggrin:

From the point of actual "imagine your character" it would be impossible to move or do anything with some random trash hanging all over your body.




Uh, artist doesn't have to think about any specific clothing at all, it's all fantasy.

And people moved around and fought in plenty of impractical clothes. Guy looks to be pretty much in 'civilian' attire, when one rarely does everything for the purpose of combat chances optimization....

Aside from the fact that plenty of warriors in fighting situation had worn some long 'skirt like' clothes to combat anyway, hakama were in fact undivided in a lot of cases too.

[cite needed]

Regarding hakama specifically, I can't find a single reputable source that claims hakama are ever anything other than split-leg. I'm open to new information on this though.

As for more general long skirt-like combat clothing, again, please do enlighten me with some reputable sources. Scots kilts don't count, since they are traditionally knee-length, so don't present a trip hazard.

[Deepbluediver]

Those 2e pictures look exceedingly comical, almost like some one was trying a little too hard to prove that D&D was just a game, and not a secret set of rituals dedicated to entraping innocent children and summoning demons.



I agree that the "overcluttered" look from Pathfinder is actually quite close to how many of my characters did dress. You learn pretty quickly that when the DM asks what equipment your character wants, just point to that chapter in the PHB and say "one of everything, please".

My biggest complaint with 3.5 was that it could be very inconsistent. Stuff varies from amateurish to cartoonish to nearly photo-realistic, making for a somewhat jarring experience at times. And yeah, some of the more "action-y" or active pics looked very unbalanced.

[Spiryt]

[cite needed]

Regarding hakama specifically, I can't find a single reputable source that claims hakama are ever anything other than split-leg. I'm open to new information on this though.

As for more general long skirt-like combat clothing, again, please do enlighten me with some reputable sources. Scots kilts don't count, since they are traditionally knee-length, so don't present a trip hazard.

http://www.immortalgeisha.com/wiki/index.php?title=Hakama

About non splited ones (andon bakama).

Here some quick ~ feet lenght stuff from roughly Middle East from different periods.

http://www.ancient.eu.com/uploads/images/147.jpg

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/338/626pxrogeriisicilyae9.jpg/


And typical 13th century robe on armed man.

http://users.wowway.com/~templar/pictures/gardecorps.jpg

[Ashtagon]

http://www.immortalgeisha.com/wiki/index.php?title=Hakama

About non splited ones (andon bakama).

Here some quick ~ feet lenght stuff from roughly Middle East from different periods.

http://www.ancient.eu.com/uploads/images/147.jpg

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/338/626pxrogeriisicilyae9.jp/ (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/338/626pxrogeriisicilyae9.jpg/)


And typical 13th century robe on armed man.

http://users.wowway.com/~templar/pictures/gardecorps.jpg

Andon bakama are womens' 'court' clothing, typically worn over a full kimono. The other group who commonly wear andon-bakama are miko (shrine maidens). Chambara fiction aside, miko were non-combatants. Not combat clothing, not even "off-duty" clothing for anyone claiming to be a warrior of any sort.

And yes, my landlady when I lived in Japan was a traditional clothing guru :smallcool:

The ancients picture... it's a Persian depiction (specifically, the elite unit known as immortals). What you have pictured was their parade uniform. Here's their combat uniform:

http://monolith.dnsalias.org/~marsares/warfare/army/p_immort.html
http://monolith.dnsalias.org/~marsares/resource/pix/warfare/army/p_immort.jpg


His clothes in this picture were used in combat, he wore completely different clothes when he acted as the bodyguard of the king. That type of clothing is more ceremonial and is normally seen on sculptures in Persepolis. The ceremonial clothing was of course more subtle, but less practical on the battlefield. One of the main weapons of an Immortal were the short bow which was of little use against the heavy armoured Greek hoplites. His other main weapon was quite a short spear with an iron point and a silver counterbalance (the officers had a golden counterbalance). A short sword, or a big dagger, completed the weaponry of an Immortal.

The rider in green... looks knee length, with an uneven hem that at most goes to calf-length, so it isn't a trip hazard. Since he is also on a horse, his own leg clothing presents no trip hazard in any case, since it's not his feet that are involved in his movement.

Your 13th century picture... not sure who you mean. The only guy wearing anything ankle-length is unarmed. The rest are wearing clothing that ends just below the knee.

Got anything else?

[Spiryt]

Those were undivided hakama. Dunno the details, I don't know much about Japan, but still they existed.

Those Persian outfits being more ceremonial is very possible, but still even guard duty (http://www.bible-history.com/sketches/persia/persian-guard-darius.jpg) is kind of martial situation.

Also,



The rider in green... looks knee length, with an uneven hem that at most goes to calf-length, so it isn't a trip hazard. Since he is also on a horse, his own leg clothing presents no trip hazard in any case, since it's not his feet that are involved in his movement.

Your 13th century picture... not sure who you mean. The only guy wearing anything ankle-length is unarmed. The rest are wearing clothing that ends just below the knee.

Those are not just below knee lenght :smallconfused: neither were majority of long travel robes/tunics of cloaks, some of them were to ankle, some could be even longer.

Anyway, arguing over exact lenght is not the point, the point is that depicting someone in very long uniform robe, and armed is not any sort of "mistake" even though such outfit wouldn't be preferable in case of any actual trouble, obviously.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3575/3647450723_6bbcc36d21.jpg

http://iconreader.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/holythursday_15c_rus.jpg

http://diglit.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg848/0103?sid=33c710a957f721856d04c490fb28d492

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglitData/image/cpg848/1/054r.jpg

http://www.wiw.pl/szkola/plastyka_gimnazjum/dyscypliny/moda/pict/szlachcic-z.jpg

http://ubioryhistoryczne.blox.pl/resource/stanislaw_antoni_szczuka_sarmataszlachtapolska1652 _16541710.jpg

http://www.freha.pl/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=24554

[kharmakazy]

I like the PF art a lot personally. The goblins are adorable and the kobolds got such an update of badassedness.

[ahenobarbi]

Actually at least some of those have a long cut so they won't make moving around difficult. It's quite possible that the character that caused the discussion has the cut somewhere where it's not visible.

Also I like Air Genasi drawings:

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070908153158/nwn2/images/8/80/Air_genasi.jpg

[Spiryt]

I count just one cut, in the kontusz of this 17th century Pole with horrible stache.

[Psyren]

To D&D's credit, 4e has great art (when they didn't just recycle 3.5 stuff anyway, but at least the pieces they did that with were also good.)


The stuff I was thinking of was released a full 2 years earlier than 2nd edition, apparently. Whoops. Still, take a look.

An Enemy (http://gyazo.com/dbfbba71774c2218fcf37f7634d2772d.png).

Our (http://gyazo.com/ab9adedf0d02ccfe4057fa20705ab94b.png) Heroes (http://gyazo.com/17390e269e55cedc87d58f34c856ea0c.png).

An action scene (http://gyazo.com/6f1b783678cdf8dc0a5f129c0af78095.png).

What is this I don't even

[zimmerwald1915]

That is a good point, but doesn't explain the bare thighs and battle-pantyhose.
Cower before my bare naked creamy thighs! Also, how does the gunslinger not trip over her own...Er. Legwarmers? Spats? Pants? Whatever they are.
I believe those are chaps.

[Honest Tiefling]

I like the PF art a lot personally. The goblins are adorable and the kobolds got such an update of badassedness.

I think goblins is one of Wayne Reynold's stronger points. His goblins make me really want to play a goblin (and possibly die in two seconds, but it would be awesome.)

I also agree with Psyren, I think the art for Fourth is the strongest of 3.5/4e/pathfinder. (I haven't played second, so I dunno).

There are pictures of pathfinder I like, such as the Lore Warden and the Elven Treesinger, but I think that's a different guy then WR.

EDIT:
I believe those are chaps.

Er...I think you're right, but it sorta looks like she has boot-chaps OVER her chaps...Okay, I admit, this art is hurting my brain, I have no idea what she is doing to those poor clothes.