Dragonball Z vs..............

[Empedocles]

Okay, so I wanted to make a versus thread, and my first thought was "Oh! Dragonball Z vs. Bleach!" Except I remembered...everyone in dragonball can blow up a planet easy. So I was wondering what would make a good DBZ versus thread? Who could oppose Goku and friends (and enemies) on fairly equal grounds?

Oh, and for these purposes Dragonball and Dragonball Z should be considered canon, but not Dragonball GT (so no SS 4) or any movies.

[Douglas]

Superman could potentially do it, depending on what time period you take him from to determine his capabilities. Oh, and remove his kryptonite weakness.

I once saw a plausible plan for "sufficiently prepared" Batman taking on Goku.

[Anarion]

Superman vs. Goku is a tad overplayed. You could try Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, which would probably kick DBZ's butt. You could also do something like compare against minor deities such as the Greek or Norse Pantheon, or something totally different like any of various Eldritch entities.

[Traab]

Gurren Laggan could.

[Prime32]

Gurren Laggan could.The request was "fight on fairly equal grounds", not "defeat instantly." :smalltongue:

[Traab]

The request was "fight on fairly equal grounds", not "defeat instantly." :smalltongue:

Heh, didnt they only get to curb stompingly, recreating the universe in their image, powerful towards the very end? I admit I havent seen the actual series, just the final battle and a few of the memes that arose from the series.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Zatanna says: "ukoG pots dan eid"

Or similar ways of attacking that do not respect power, like the Nasuverse Shiki's

[Prime32]

Hm... what about Accelerator from To Aru Majutsu no Index? That would at least result in an actual fight.
EDIT: Touma could probably defeat a DBZ character, but only if they fight solely with energy blasts or are Majin Buu. Their endurance comes from their bodies releasing ki to counter attacks, which he ignores.


Or similar ways of attacking that do not respect power, like the Nasuverse Shiki'sSpeaking of the Nasuverse... Gilgamesh could probably defeat some of DBZ's divine characters.

[TheEmerged]

Zatanna says: "ukoG pots dan eid"

Or similar ways of attacking that do not respect power, like the Nasuverse Shiki's

/humor
At which point Goku goes and finds some guy named Nad Die and stops him...
/humor

I know, pot calling kettle and all that.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Asura's Wrath.

Bayonetta.

[Tavar]

Well, it also depends on what era you take the DBZ characters from, doesn't it?

That said, Elder Exalts could probably tangle with the upper level characters.

[Jallorn]

Off the top of my head, Star Trek could be interesting, but problematic since Goku and friends are small, making them difficult targets to hit. Plus instant transmission allows him to get inside a ship regardless of shields. Although, Borg assimilation might mesh with DBZ abilities interestingly.

A Marvel crossover might be interesting too, and isn't often done to my knowledge. Maybe Avengers (extended of course) versus the Z Warriors. Actually, Thor vs. Goku would be a great fight.

Halo might work, I don't know enough about it.

Ooh, Exalted could be fun.

[Flickerdart]

Hm... what about Accelerator from To Aru Majutsu no Index? That would at least result in an actual fight.
EDIT: Touma could probably defeat a DBZ character, but only if they fight solely with energy blasts or are Majin Buu. Their endurance comes from their bodies releasing ki to counter attacks, which he ignores.

Speaking of the Nasuverse... Gilgamesh could probably defeat some of DBZ's divine characters.
Accelerator would win - no matter what Goku throws at him, he could reflect it. Goku's only alternative would be to blow up the planet and deprive Accelerator of air, but he's too much of a good guy to do that.

[Soliloquy]

Well, the accelerator could gather all the air around him and live for quite a while...

[Prime32]

Accelerator would win - no matter what Goku throws at him, he could reflect it. Goku's only alternative would be to blow up the planet and deprive Accelerator of air, but he's too much of a good guy to do that.Goku is actually pretty smart when it comes to fighting, so maybe he could figure out that trick for bypassing Accelerator's redirection field. Maybe.
Batman definitely could. :smalltongue:

I remember seeing a suggested battle between Femto (from Berserk) and Majin Buu, where it was declared that neither combatant was capable of killing the other... and then someone pointed out that Femto would cease to exist if Buu killed all humans.

[Fan]

Superman could potentially do it, depending on what time period you take him from to determine his capabilities. Oh, and remove his kryptonite weakness.

I once saw a plausible plan for "sufficiently prepared" Batman taking on Goku.

Not even close, Superman DESTROYS Goku, it's not even a question, Goku's only method of FTL is Instant Transmission, and even that requires him to lock onto a ki signatures meaning it's in combat use is limited to the speed of thought.

Superman is well..



http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd84/DJSNuva1/as1xf1.jpg

200 Quintillion Tons with 1 hand.

http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/576/525475-1724817_1340781_superman_speed_of_light_super.jpg

Casually flying at the speed of light.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60228/1736302-deathofthenewgods080260vb0_super.jpg

Surviving being at the impact point of two planets.

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg48/MrMajestic08/Feats/Speed/speed%2011/1.jpg

Maintaining Faster than light speeds for FOUR MONTHS.



Our planet only weighs 5972000000000000000000 tons, with all the attached civilization of man.

That is 30000 times the weight of a planet, and SSJ4 Goku is shown to need 2 hands to maintain a City in GT (Which is also not canon.), and 10000 Tons is considered appropriately heavy training weights for Goku in Cell Saga (Meaning that is his comfortable lifting weight).

Then, using the Z Sword (a sword is a sword in the hands of someone able to apply enough force), they are unable to scratch a block of Klangite in the Manga, and the sword breaks from the applied force.

THEN SSJ4 Goku is impaled on a pole later, a regular, metal, pole.

And then, his highest (canonical.), feat is blasting baby into the sun (which out powered his 10X Kamehameha, given by the fact that this is what destroyed Baby, not the 10x Kamehameha empowered by Trunks, Gohan, and Goten by Supreme Kai in SSJ4 form.)

It would take the Genki Dama to scratch Superman given his durability feats presented above, and if it's Pre Crisis Superman? It's not even a fight.

Also, The Broly movies aren't canon.

Thus, allowing the highest end shown feats from a part of the show that's specifically not allowed in the OP, Superman still wins.

Because he's The Man of Steel. If he sees Goku as a threat to all that is, then he can AND will paste his head before it fires a neuron.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Not even close, Superman DESTROYS Goku, it's not even a question, Goku's only method of FTL is Instant Transmission, and even that requires him to lock onto a ki signatures meaning it's in combat use is limited to the speed of thought.

Superman is well..

Wow this thread actually beat my expectation before someone turned up with this.

Ahhh well good game everyone, its all downhill from here. Let the cycle hammering examples across decades and continuities to forge the unstoppable Superman of every ignorant comics basher's rant into being a reality commence.

Or we could face up to the fact that like many truly high powered (but not reality warping) individuals Superman breaks the scale and writers will never actually apply anything approaching a through or consistent sensible standard for the power of their maximum feats.

Which of course applies to Dragonball just as much. How much? Well lets start with HOW LOW one has to go to get to Superman planet smashing scale in the Dragonball universe. And that answer is.... Master. Roshi. Who in as Jackie Chun in the first tournament of the series decided that fighting Goku's giant ape form would be less expedient then blowing up the Moon with a Kamehameha.

Both are so ridiculously off the charts and into plot device asking who wins at their level at their own game is a fool's game.

[TheSummoner]

And that sorta stuff is exactly why I can't stand Superman.

*derp* I can move faster than the speed of THOUGHT!

*derp* I can lift 30k times the weight of a planet!

*derp* I can survive a double apocalypse!

*derp* I get new powers at the speed that I can imagine them!

None of this is meant as a shot at you of course, just how ridiculously stupid some of the Superman stuff is. It's boring. It's a living "I win" button. DBZ had it's share of problems, especially later on, but it wasn't that bad. Yeah, they had a revolving door afterlife and magical reset button, but you didn't see people surviving exploding planets (well... Freeza... Ok, you didn't see PROTAGONISTS doing that) or lifting weights that ridiculous. (Ridiculous, yes. Benching planets ridiculous, no). Superman just annoys me.

As for the original topic... I dunno... How about Goku, pre-Namek vs Kefka from FFVI at the height of his power. Just because I like Kefka. :smallredface:

[Tavar]

Do note that Superman's capabilities change greatly depending on what specific era and stories you take him from. In the Golden age, it would be an insanely easy fight. For Goku.

For instance, I believe that first panel is from All-Star Superman. Spoilers regarding that series, but it does reveal somewhat mitigating circumstances.

, and involves Superman essentially being forcibly overclocked. Yeah, he's insanely strong, but it's killing him, and there isn't a cure.

[erikun]

There is always Dragon Ball Z vs Dragon Ball Z (http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/accueil.html)

[Kittenwolf]

Thanks for the lesson in why Superman is probably the most boring superhero in existence :)

As to taking out DragonBallZ characters... WOBBUFFET!! :D

[Starwulf]

great stuff.

As for the original topic... I dunno... How about Goku, pre-Namek vs Kefka from FFVI at the height of his power. Just because I like Kefka. :smallredface:

Now THAT sounds like an interesting match up. By Pre-Namek, do you mean post Vegeta fight at least? Since that was a major jump in power just by being pushed to his utmost limit fighting Vegeta(all saiyans gain massive power boosts when brought near death and surviving). If so, it would definitely be pretty interesting fight, just because of Kefka's absolute insanity and willingness to do just about anything to win(I mean, even Vegeta had his limits, I'm pretty sure he could have torched half the planet, but he didn't).

Powered by the three statues and on top of his tower, as long as goku was forced to CLIMB the tower and fight all the enemies Kefka planted there, the final battle could go either way(barring Sensu beans), since Goku would undoubtedly be pretty tired. Now, if Goku could just fly up straight to Kefka, skipping all other encounters, I think it'd be a bit of a curb stomp. Then again, fighting Kefka after going through all of the encounters, could just be the right emotional trigger(assuming Goku knew that Kefka was going to kill all life after he eliminated Goku) to put Goku into SSJ mode, just like Freeza did, in which case the tower would pretty much be the equivalent of training on the way to Namek, then fighting through the scrubs, oops, sorry, I meant the Ginyu force. Same outcome, different way of getting there.

[TheSummoner]

It can be post-Vegeta if you like. Just before he gets on the spaceship to Namek. (So no Gravity training, no Ginyu Force, no Freeza yet). Hell, why not do both scenarios... One post-Vegeta, one pre-Vegeta.

The thing to remember about Kefka's tower is that Kefka ISN'T at the top. You have to fly to the top get in and then fight your way INSIDE to reach him. So Goku has to fly, either using the cloud or under his own power (I can't actually remember when he gained the ability to fly on his own), but he can't use flight to skip directly to Kefka himself.

As for the Sensu beans... Let's just assume that even if Goku has them, Kefka isn't going to give him any chance to use them mid-battle. At best, he can eat one right before the fight starts.

Oh, and lets say Kefka has between 1 and 6 Dragonballs so neither side can do any wishing.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Can I suggest a fight?

Yusuke Urameshi (end of series power level) V Goku (pre-Piccolo)

And a Corollary: At what point in DB does Goku outstrip Yusuke if not right from Chapter 1?

[KillianHawkeye]

So Goku has to fly, either using the cloud or under his own power (I can't actually remember when he gained the ability to fly on his own), but he can't use flight to skip directly to Kefka himself.

He learned it sometime before the final arc of the original Dragon Ball sequence (the Tenkaichi tournament against Piccolo Jr.), although he saved it for a surprise IIRC.

[Xefas]

That said, Elder Exalts could probably tangle with the upper level characters.

Actually, most of the Dragonball characters have a weakness that would be exploitable even by the Terrestrial Exalted. An Exalt can-

1) Perfect Defend for a round. So, even faster-than-light speed isn't going to take them out instantly. It'll take a few moments, at the very least.

2) Totally mindrape a dude.

Goku is kind of a simpleton, all things considered on the cosmic scale. He does have love and friendship and heroism, of course, but nothing to the effect of anti-Unnatural Mental Influence Charms. Even a starting Solar is just going to tell him he's a duck and then walk off triumphantly.

Other non-punching strategies could work at various Essence levels. We know that Goku (and, presumably, the other Z Warriors) isn't immune to sickness (he almost dies at the beginning of the Android Saga). So, Magical Super Canceraids via Malfeas or Kimbery Charms, or through some kind of Artifact might do the trick.

For Crafters, something on the level of a Soulbreaker Orb, which just instantly flays your soul off, is an option. At that point, the problem is actually catching one of the DBZ folks in the blast (doable, but not easy).

Sorcerers are at a major disadvantage, in that most of their combat spells leave them too vulnerable, and that their best options (summoning a demon of pestilence or a demon of brain-melting, for instance) don't deal with the pesky tendency the DBZ characters have of not staying dead. Whereas, social Charms, Soulbreaker stuff, and Green Sun Nimbus Flare are all going to murder their existence, rather than their life.

Infrastructural characters may just be able to make a world that the Dragonball Heroes can't live in. I'm thinking of a Malefactor with Soul Sand Devil Shintai, who can't be directly harmed, or directly harm anything - just turning the whole world slowly into desert, with no food or water that doesn't brainwash you when you consume it.

If the only thing allowed is punching, then, yeah, a lot of the DBZ universe is going to paste an Exalt after a minute or so, unless they're an Elder Celestial of some kind. I speculate that in a punching contest, the pre-Dragonball GT characters might be able to hold their own up until an Exalt hits Essence 8/9 or so. Once they're at 10, all bets are off (I'm infinitely large and punch time, etc).

(Alternatively, the best outcome is that Broly shows up, instantly becomes an Akuma of Malfeas and now everyone wins.)

[Dr.Epic]

The only thing I can think of is Gurren Lagann.

[KillianHawkeye]

I think the problem here is that DBZ already vs'd itself into oblivion....

[DiscipleofBob]

With the current power creep in the other Shounen Franchises, I'm starting to think that by the end of their respective series, Luffy, Naruto, Ichigo, and maybe even Natsu might just stand a chance.

There's always Alucard of Hellsing. Mostly because I'm not sure that he really can be killed.

For a more obscure one, Betterman. A being with several different powerful Godzilla-esque form who fights you for a bit, analyzes your composition, then adjusts one of several bio-weapons to specifically kill you and no one else. The final boss of that series was a giant, shapeshifting, seemingly indestructible cancer golem.

Any hospital-themed character could play off of Goku's fear of needles.

In the comics universe, need someone on par with Superman, Hulk, Thor, etc. Phoenix also comes to mind and certain lesser characters reach appropriate power levels during one storyline so they might work. For other comic verses, there's Dr. Manhattan.

[Mixt]

I just had a hilarious mental image.

Proffesor Hojo: My precious specimen! *Pulls out a bigass needle*
Goku: O_O ARGH!
Hojo: I'm just going to take a few samples precious (And inject you with Jenova cells so Sephiroth can steal your body hehehe)
Goku: AHHHH!!!!!

Later

Gokuroth: Shall i give you despair?
Vegeta: The hell Kakarot? What are yo- *Blasted with Sin Heartless Angel, power level down to 1*

[Traab]

With the current power creep in the other Shounen Franchises, I'm starting to think that by the end of their respective series, Luffy, Naruto, Ichigo, and maybe even Natsu might just stand a chance.

There's always Alucard of Hellsing. Mostly because I'm not sure that he really can be killed.

For a more obscure one, Betterman. A being with several different powerful Godzilla-esque form who fights you for a bit, analyzes your composition, then adjusts one of several bio-weapons to specifically kill you and no one else. The final boss of that series was a giant, shapeshifting, seemingly indestructible cancer golem.

Any hospital-themed character could play off of Goku's fear of needles.

In the comics universe, need someone on par with Superman, Hulk, Thor, etc. Phoenix also comes to mind and certain lesser characters reach appropriate power levels during one storyline so they might work. For other comic verses, there's Dr. Manhattan.

Id say that naruto could stand a good shot, with a few extra boosts that are possible for him to reach, like say, gate opening. He could open the gates, and with his healing abilities, KEEP them open, for far longer than lee, at less risk, granting him an obscene speed and strength boost over and above what he already has. Alucard is a possibility, I know that he is pretty much unkillable, but I dont know as much about his offensive capabilities and how they would match up to a super sayien. At the very worst its a standoff, he cant catch goku, and goku cant permanently kill him.

[Fan]

Do note that Superman's capabilities change greatly depending on what specific era and stories you take him from. In the Golden age, it would be an insanely easy fight. For Goku.

For instance, I believe that first panel is from All-Star Superman. Spoilers regarding that series, but it does reveal somewhat mitigating circumstances.

, and involves Superman essentially being forcibly overclocked. Yeah, he's insanely strong, but it's killing him, and there isn't a cure.

Not really, Superman has consistently been at Planet to Star Buster since the 90's, and the version I'm using isn't even the strongest non Pre Crisis Version of Superman, and Pre 90's we have Pre Crisis Superman, who is a Solar System to Galaxy Buster.

For instance, we could use DC 1 Million (A canon storyline, where they meet themselves from the future.)



http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/9810/288808-kal_kent_holds_a_galaxy_super.jpg

Force Vision (Telekinesis), holding back the weight of a GALAXY.

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg241/scaled.php?server=241&filename=sm17zr1.jpg&res=landing

Hearing someone talk ON MARS.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/241/sm8sm7.jpg/

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg221/scaled.php?server=221&filename=sm9mc9.jpg&res=landing

While depowered, he was able to calculate several hundred scenario's at the same time, while at full power this extends his speed of thought to several billion scenario's at once.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/257/sm13wf3.jpg/

BREAKING THROUGH

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg257/scaled.php?server=257&filename=sm14xj5.jpg&res=landing

TIME AND SPACE

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/257/sm15jz8.jpg/

And recovering instantly when back in the presence of his sun.


http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/458/sm4yj2.jpg/

Mind controlling a mob of people, while again, severely depowered.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/221/sm1fm8.jpg/

Complete Immunity to magic.

And for non 1 million Superman in the current age-

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/6/60228/1724803-1404992_realityfixng9_super.jpg

Closing a gap in time itself with his bare hands.


And again, this is still not the most powerful MODERN version of Superman.

Also as a note, the HST (Holy Shounen Trinity.) caps at Island level Destruction, and that's with One Piece. Naruto caps at Mountain range level as well, and Bleach caps at Town to Large City level. Putting DBZ out of it's reach for the entire verse.

Alucard also only has 1 million lives, it'd take Goku some time, but he could handle it.

[Traab]

Alucard also only has 1 million lives, it'd take Goku some time, but he could handle it.

Only if goku knew about it. Or do you really think he would have the capability of just endlessly killing alucard, in hopes that eventually, it would stick? I personally think he would get frustrated and give up after a few hundred kills at most. He might try different methods of killing him to see if there is a specific weakness, but in the end, I just think goku would stop trying as it would seem pretty damn pointless.

[Dr.Epic]

What about Death Note?

[DiscipleofBob]

What about Death Note?

Light may first have to learn about his given name Kakarott, really difficult given that really only Vegeta uses it at this point.

Then he'd have to know exactly how to write it, which might be difficult if the original spelling is in some forgotten language that not even Goku knows.

Oh, and there's the fact that is Goku is killed, they can always just grab the Dragonballs and bring him back.

[Jallorn]

I'm not sure if this would stack up, but what about pre-Vegeta or possibly pre-Saiyins vs. D Grey Man?

[AtlanteanTroll]

With the current power creep in the other Shounen Franchises, I'm starting to think that by the end of their respective series, Luffy, Naruto, Ichigo, and maybe even Natsu might just stand a chance.

Luffy? No, no, no. Blackbeard is already a decent fight for Goku. Also, since both Bleach and Naruto are ending soonish, Luffy's probably the only one who will reach that level.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Not really, Superman has consistently been at Planet to Star Buster since the 90's, and the version I'm using isn't even the strongest non Pre Crisis Version of Superman, and Pre 90's we have Pre Crisis Superman, who is a Solar System to Galaxy Buster.

For instance, we could use DC 1 Million (A canon storyline, where they meet themselves from the future.)

The BEST part and clearest indication of how ridiculous these match-ups are is that Superman fans are only rarely aware of what's actually canon.

Give you a hint.... Action Comics #1 volume 2 forward. Actually the rule is perhaps even simpler, if Superman is wearing his super underwear its not canon.

Also several of your examples well.... aren't Superman. I mean not even an alternate version, I mean not Clark Kent, Kal-El, etc at all. They're his descendant from many centuries on. Also amusingly your caption doesn't even match the dialogue of your own picture there in one place. Shows your absolute bias regardless of fact to me personally. Really I don't know why you didn't just go for the gold and get the "real" Superman from that event:

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100905033913/superman/images/9/98/Dconemillion-supermanprime.jpg

Perhaps because its very obviously not what people mean when they say Superman. I understand he's basically second (maybe) to the Prescence at this incarnation. He could probably just wish a world dead so its utterly meaningless for anything but guys like the Spectre, or Thanos+Infinity Gauntlet to even begin to think about fighting him.


Also as a note, the HST (Holy Shounen Trinity.) caps at Island level Destruction, and that's with One Piece. Naruto caps at Mountain range level as well, and Bleach caps at Town to Large City level. Putting DBZ out of it's reach for the entire verse.

Whitebeard its said could break the world if he so wanted. Also its an open question whether ki techniques from Dragonball can be directly considered Haki that would let a Logia user even be hurt. Though at that point might as well note there at least some precedent for everyone in Bleach being ghosts who also wouldn't be harmed by anything in Dragonball. Naruto is still screwed excepting maybe the Sage of the Six Paths.


Alucard also only has 1 million lives, it'd take Goku some time, but he could handle it.

Well I believe the figure is 3,424,867 specifically however there's still the question of whether Alucard would be able to even be harmed to take a single life. Notably he takes wounds and STILL regenerates when deprived of his extra lives (with Anderson dishing out the damage) so we basically have nothing that can be proven in Hellsing to take even one of those lives. We can only speculate that he actually needs anything left to regenerate, so even setting off a nuke at point blank is arguable.

Why I think beating Alucard is a matter of having special abilities. I have to feel that someone much weaker like Kagome from Inuyasha stands a better chance then Goku etc, since she has the power to purify evil. Not that she could do it, but its a demonstration of what sort of power is required. If it even works. Heck conclusion Alucard probably just plain can't die.

Not that Alucard displays any of the offensive power level he'd need to take out the truly heavy hitters of fiction. Though if one interpreted Supes dodgy weakness to magic applying to Alucard's bite he could eat Supes. I'd say Kryptonian skin would still be too tough by a long shot.

Hmm actually that reminds me...

Other Good Fights for Goku and company:

The Mazoku race from Slayers. They pretty explicitly can only be harmed in ways specific to their own setting and cosmology. Someone like Hellmaster would even arguably have a way to strike back. Also of course Lina could always use the Giga Slave, though by rights she'd be punched out before she said 'pitch' its still shorter then the Spirit Bomb to fire and that went off multiple times in Dragonball.

Mahou Sensei Negima of course gives us a high level mage who is literally as fast as lightning and guys that can react to that speed. Negi pretty much goes SSJ and Rakan they needed to hack the game to take out.

And Evangeline is possibly the highest power vamp ever excepting speculations on Crimson Moon and Arucreid's abilities, though she is not as demonstrably immortal as Alucard.

[Dr.Epic]

Light may first have to learn about his given name Kakarott, really difficult given that really only Vegeta uses it at this point.

Then he'd have to know exactly how to write it, which might be difficult if the original spelling is in some forgotten language that not even Goku knows.

Oh, and there's the fact that is Goku is killed, they can always just grab the Dragonballs and bring him back.

A) They can still kill off the other characters whose names are a secret.

B) You can only be brought back on with the dragon balls.

[darkblade]

Thanos with the infinity gems would pretty much hands down stomp on the Dragonball universe, unless someone could convince him that destroying their reality somehow upsets Death. He's of course in the reality warping tier which puts him in a class all his own alongside the likes of Dr. Manhattan, Haruhi Suzimiya, Shinji/Rei at the the end of Evangelion, etc.

Beings at that level are almost never defeated by strength of arms but instead by convincing them not to do what they are currently doing.

[AtlanteanTroll]

A) They can still kill off the other characters whose names are a secret.
They can? Someone should tell that to Ohba sensei, because he really messed up with that whole L thing then.

[Fan]

The BEST part and clearest indication of how ridiculous these match-ups are is that Superman fans are only rarely aware of what's actually canon.

Give you a hint.... Action Comics #1 volume 2 forward. Actually the rule is perhaps even simpler, if Superman is wearing his super underwear its not canon.

Also several of your examples well.... aren't Superman. I mean not even an alternate version, I mean not Clark Kent, Kal-El, etc at all. They're his descendant from many centuries on. Also amusingly your caption doesn't even match the dialogue of your own picture there in one place. Shows your absolute bias regardless of fact to me personally. Really I don't know why you didn't just go for the gold and get the "real" Superman from that event:

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100905033913/superman/images/9/98/Dconemillion-supermanprime.jpg

Perhaps because its very obviously not what people mean when they say Superman. I understand he's basically second (maybe) to the Prescence at this incarnation. He could probably just wish a world dead so its utterly meaningless for anything but guys like the Spectre, or Thanos+Infinity Gauntlet to even begin to think about fighting him.



Whitebeard its said could break the world if he so wanted. Also its an open question whether ki techniques from Dragonball can be directly considered Haki that would let a Logia user even be hurt. Though at that point might as well note there at least some precedent for everyone in Bleach being ghosts who also wouldn't be harmed by anything in Dragonball. Naruto is still screwed excepting maybe the Sage of the Six Paths.



Well I believe the figure is 3,424,867 specifically however there's still the question of whether Alucard would be able to even be harmed to take a single life. Notably he takes wounds and STILL regenerates when deprived of his extra lives (with Anderson dishing out the damage) so we basically have nothing that can be proven in Hellsing to take even one of those lives. We can only speculate that he actually needs anything left to regenerate, so even setting off a nuke at point blank is arguable.

Why I think beating Alucard is a matter of having special abilities. I have to feel that someone much weaker like Kagome from Inuyasha stands a better chance then Goku etc, since she has the power to purify evil. Not that she could do it, but its a demonstration of what sort of power is required. If it even works. Heck conclusion Alucard probably just plain can't die.

Not that Alucard displays any of the offensive power level he'd need to take out the truly heavy hitters of fiction. Though if one interpreted Supes dodgy weakness to magic applying to Alucard's bite he could eat Supes. I'd say Kryptonian skin would still be too tough by a long shot.

Hmm actually that reminds me...

Other Good Fights for Goku and company:

The Mazoku race from Slayers. They pretty explicitly can only be harmed in ways specific to their own setting and cosmology. Someone like Hellmaster would even arguably have a way to strike back. Also of course Lina could always use the Giga Slave, though by rights she'd be punched out before she said 'pitch' its still shorter then the Spirit Bomb to fire and that went off multiple times in Dragonball.

Mahou Sensei Negima of course gives us a high level mage who is literally as fast as lightning and guys that can react to that speed. Negi pretty much goes SSJ and Rakan they needed to hack the game to take out.

And Evangeline is possibly the highest power vamp ever excepting speculations on Crimson Moon and Arucreid's abilities, though she is not as demonstrably immortal as Alucard.

I will full on admit to a personal bias, but I have scans and actually demonstrated feats to back up my posts, and claims.

They are all still Superman, and it's all main continuity (Post Crisis.), I have every idea what canon for DC is, and the scans I posted are well within the canon status for the universe pre the most recent reboot.

The Force Vision scan shows him holding back the Galaxy temporarily, he isn't able to do it for very long and thus not able to hold it back practically, but the fact that it can tank the weight, heat, and everything else that makes up a galaxy for even a split second puts it well above anything demonstrated in DBZ.


Also, again, he is still Superman. What you think people "Think of Superman as", has absolutely no bearing on the canon status of the story. Most people don't think of Luke Skywalker as someone on Star Killer's level, but given his high end EU feats he is more than capable of tearing apart planets despite this existing in direct contradiction to the fact that The Death Star was ever a problem.

Now if you would kindly show me some (Canon), manga scans of DBZ showing me that someone is capable of rivaling anything superman has shown in strength, speed, or durability?

As far as I'm aware, even up to the Freiza saga, there were no garunteed planet 1 H Ko's that were usable at lightspeed combat, and there are no speed feats that exist in DBZ for Goku that show him as being fast as light without Instant Transmission which requires a Ki Signature lock on and isn't combat viable for anyone faster than him.

Now, unless you have something, scans, or video's from canon parts of DB (This means no Broly, no GT.), that shows them busting anything more than a planet in a single attack I think the "Edge" is still firmly in Superman's court?

I may have a personal bias towards Superman as a character, but the feats shown are feats shown. I even stated that it wasn't the most powerful version of Superman I could have used in direct reference to Superman Prime who bears the last Green Lantern Ring, the Sword of Superman, and is a Universal threat (Canonically stated to keep The Atom's universe from collapsing in storyline.), and he IS Kal El.

Superman 1 Million is in fact, still Superman. He is a son of the house of El, and is a direct descendent of modern Superman.

I can however, post current scans involving Superman closing blackhole's, rifts in time, and various other things that require him to be a starbuster + in strength. You know, like I already have 3 times.

Also, going by "your" version of canon (which is incorrect.), Pre Crisis superman is the only canon one, and well.

And again, whitebeard was never shown to actually be capable of breaking the world, what someone "says" has no bearing on any actual power status it's rather what they actually are shown to do.

Otherwise, we end up with characters who claim to be a lot of things they aren't, for instance, Dr.Doom claims the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak are unbreakable, and then you have The Sentry who just flies straight through them and punches him in the teeth.

Also, he's wearing his super underwear in this scan taken directly from Action Comics.



http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk293/BattlethreadJok/Action_Comics-273-04.jpg

Both for a demonstration of speed in the hundreds of thousands of C, and destructive capacity, this is not something gleaned from the sneezing powder, otherwise normal people would've been sneezing cars away in the earlier panels.

[darkblade]

The DC One Million event isn't canon for DC at any point in time. It was Grant Morrisson playing around in his own little sandbox with little future versions of all of DC's toys.

He tried to retroactively make it cannon to All Star Superman but that is a separate universe as well.

[Fan]

The DC One Million event isn't canon for DC at any point in time. It was Grant Morrisson playing around in his own little sandbox with little future versions of all of DC's toys.

He tried to retroactively make it cannon to All Star Superman but that is a separate universe as well.

Actually, all versions of Superman are canon thanks to the Crisis on Infintie Earths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_on_Infinite_Earths), Infinite Crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_Crisis), and Final Crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Crisis) storylines where all of the DC Megaverse (All Star, Original, and millions of other supermen.), are all proven to be connected to the DC main canon continuity. These are ALL VALID VERSIONS OF SUPERMAN. There is no "DC Universe", it is a DC Megaverse where everything is connected, and is the established point of over 6 or 7 storylines.

Surely you remember The Superboy Prime incidient where All Star Superman, an Older Superman (Looked to me like Kal El did in Crisis of Infinite Earths, a pretty nice art hint.), and Current Superman all faced off and drove him through The Red Super Giant Sun of Krypton?

I do believe it is the source of the lines "It's not about powers, or what you wear on your chest. It's about what you do. It's about ACTION.", and then he collapses on a pile of kyrptonite and dies.

I can post scans for this if you'd like, and the ability to fly through a star is DEFINITELY a statement of durability. Especially when that star is essentially made of Anti Superman, AND is over 100 times the mass and surface area of our own star.

[deuterio12]

Whitebeard its said could break the world if he so wanted. Also its an open question whether ki techniques from Dragonball can be directly considered Haki that would let a Logia user even be hurt. Though at that point might as well note there at least some precedent for everyone in Bleach being ghosts who also wouldn't be harmed by anything in Dragonball. Naruto is still screwed excepting maybe the Sage of the Six Paths.

"Whitebeard can break the world" was bravado at best. He couldn't even break the metal walls the marines rised to trap him and his pirate army.
And didn't Goku fight quite a bit of ghosts here and there?

Bleach characters have been shown to be hurteable by student bare fists. The main problem is spoting them.



Mahou Sensei Negima of course gives us a high level mage who is literally as fast as lightning and guys that can react to that speed. Negi pretty much goes SSJ and Rakan they needed to hack the game to take out.

And Evangeline is possibly the highest power vamp ever excepting speculations on Crimson Moon and Arucreid's abilities, though she is not as demonstrably immortal as Alucard.

We however never see either of those blowing up actual worlds, and a bunch of school girls with some magic items still pose them a decent challenge. We also know that Negi did die, even after being turned into a vampire like Evangeline.

[Devonix]

Superman is powerful yes insanely so. What I don't get is why that makes him boring to people. There are plenty of comics about people on par with him that others don't complain about.

[Devonix]

Actually, all versions of Superman are canon thanks to the Crisis on Infintie Earths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_on_Infinite_Earths), Infinite Crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_Crisis), and Final Crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Crisis) storylines where all of the DC Megaverse (All Star, Original, and millions of other supermen.), are all proven to be connected to the DC main canon continuity. These are ALL VALID VERSIONS OF SUPERMAN. There is no "DC Universe", it is a DC Megaverse where everything is connected, and is the established point of over 6 or 7 storylines.

Surely you remember The Superboy Prime incidient where All Star Superman, an Older Superman (Looked to me like Kal El did in Crisis of Infinite Earths, a pretty nice art hint.), and Current Superman all faced off and drove him through The Red Super Giant Sun of Krypton?

I do believe it is the source of the lines "It's not about powers, or what you wear on your chest. It's about what you do. It's about ACTION.", and then he collapses on a pile of kyrptonite and dies.

I can post scans for this if you'd like, and the ability to fly through a star is DEFINITELY a statement of durability. Especially when that star is essentially made of Anti Superman, AND is over 100 times the mass and surface area of our own star.


It was Earth 2 Superman and New Earth Superman who did that in Infinite Crisis. All Star Superman wasn't in that one.

[Fan]

It was Earth 2 Superman and New Earth Superman who did that in Infinite Crisis. All Star Superman wasn't in that one.

My apologies. I know there were more Supermen in it than that, and that Superman Prime (DC 1 Million) gifted one of them a Rose for their struggles against the Chronovore.

The whole "Superman Dynasty" thing tends to detail this a lot better than my memory probably does.

[DiscipleofBob]

While providing scans as a source is admirable, it really doesn't work. Comic book writers have no sense of scale. If DBZ had been around for as long and had a similar number of years with a studio with tons of writers, you can bet you'd see the same shenanigans with Goku as you do with Superman.

And I'm sorry, a Superman that can hold galaxies back with telekinesis, that's immune to magic, not even most Superman fans would accept that as canon.

The sealing of a so-called "time breach" with static electricity was particular logic-fail.

Just because it was done once in a Superman story does not make it legit.

[Devonix]

Actually I'd say that Goku Has been around about as long as Superman in a different continuity.

you must remember that when fans talk about Superman we are usually talking about a particular Superman with a consistant set of feats and continuity. Another person might talk about another Superman and we'll acknowledge them as a completely different character than the one we are talking about.

[Devonix]

And Fan I think your argument would hold a bit more water with people if you stuck to one particular Superman not seperate ones. I am also one of those people who dislike when folks cherry pick feats from seperate versions of a character to create one lacking the flaws of them and only the bonuses.

[Kyberwulf]

DBZ vs. A wizardfanboy.

Seriously... have you ever tried arguing anything vs a wizard. >.>

I doubt DBZ, Superman, The Hulk AND Chuck Norris could defeat a Wizard powered but the belief of a fanboy.

[Fan]

While providing scans as a source is admirable, it really doesn't work. Comic book writers have no sense of scale. If DBZ had been around for as long and had a similar number of years with a studio with tons of writers, you can bet you'd see the same shenanigans with Goku as you do with Superman.

And I'm sorry, a Superman that can hold galaxies back with telekinesis, that's immune to magic, not even most Superman fans would accept that as canon.

The sealing of a so-called "time breach" with static electricity was particular logic-fail.

Just because it was done once in a Superman story does not make it legit.

*Shrug*, He did it regardless of logic. In a realm of magic, faster than light travel, out and out declarations that beings like The Presence exist, and Green Lantern rings that run on willpower we just have to assume that's how it works in DC, and Superman can do it because it's done directly on panel.

As for cherry picking feats, well, each of my posts has been dedicated to a different superman. The first post was dedicated mostly to All Star / Golden Age Superman, I admit I sometimes get the art of the two confused when looking through my scans.

The second post was citing the fact that I wasn't even using the worst Superman, that Superman 1 Million, or Superman Prime 1 Million would be far worse versions to "fanboy" superman with. I chose a middling, non pre crisis version of superman to post scans for, and they said I was cherry picking which version of him I was using, so I went on to ACTUALLY cherry pick.

Also, I think that really any but the DCAU (JLA cartoon on CN.) Superman would beat Goku. I've been reading Superman pretty dedicatedly, and ALL of his versions are FTL Star Busters able to tank Cosmic amounts of damage.

I've also watched DBZ religiously in my younger years, in fact, I remember being pissed when they re-aired the Cell Saga well over 3 times in it's entirety, and being fairly fed up with it after that point due to watching it all three times.

I did stay and watch it through to the end of Buu Saga, and from there, to the end of Dragonball Canon.

Also, again, what fans consider canon is called Fanon. It has no actual bearing on who, or what each version of Superman is actually capable of.

The other thing is, Superman is actually able to PUNCH with the force of the Genki Dama. That's a thing he can do. Post Crisis Superman can punch with the force to break planets dozens of times over, and he's faster than Goku in every single edition of Superman, in the Post Crisis main DC continuity he pulled the Magedon Mechanism which was as large as the Earth Moon System at Faster than Light Speeds.

Goku doesn't have ANY showings to match this, combined with the Infinite Crisis showing of him flying through a Red Super Giant for durability, and surviving being at the impact point of Apokolips, and Earth and his showings here (Also main DC continuity.)



http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/9600/moonbust4do6lr.jpg



of him busting a small moon, and reaching Saturn from Earth in the span of 4 minutes.

Now, his obvious focus wasn't speed here, but damage, given the other scans I posted from main DC continuity showcasing his FTL ability. Yes, Master Roshi did this, but Superman did this thinking it was an okay amount of collateral damage, he busts planets and even stars (Closing a Black Hole with his bare hands.), all the time.

As for scans not being a valid form of citation? As far as I'm aware they are the ONLY valid form of citation available, everything in DC fails in canon status before comic scans, and they are the ONLY source we have of actual unbiased information.

I mean, where do you think the websites get their info from? Again, scans trump all else when provided with information, if he is presented to do it in comic, he can do it. Regardless of any personal bias. The idea of saying "It happened in comics, but it doesn't matter." is the equivalent of saying "I disbelieve.".

[Devonix]

*Shrug*, He did it regardless of logic. In a realm of magic, faster than light travel, out and out declarations that beings like The Presence exist, and Green Lantern rings that run on willpower we just have to assume that's how it works in DC, and Superman can do it because it's done directly on panel.

As for cherry picking feats, well, each of my posts has been dedicated to a different superman. The first post was dedicated mostly to All Star / Golden Age Superman, I admit I sometimes get the art of the two confused when looking through my scans.

The second post was citing the fact that I wasn't even using the worst Superman, that Superman 1 Million, or Superman Prime 1 Million would be far worse versions to "fanboy" superman with. I chose a middling, non pre crisis version of superman to post scans for, and they said I was cherry picking which version of him I was using, so I went on to ACTUALLY cherry pick.

Also, I think that really any but the DCAU (JLA cartoon on CN.) Superman would beat Goku. I've been reading Superman pretty dedicatedly, and ALL of his versions are FTL Star Busters able to tank Cosmic amounts of damage.

I've also watched DBZ religiously in my younger years, in fact, I remember being pissed when they re-aired the Cell Saga well over 3 times in it's entirety, and being fairly fed up with it after that point due to watching it all three times.

I did stay and watch it through to the end of Buu Saga, and from there, to the end of Dragonball Canon.

Also, again, what fans consider canon is called Fanon. It has no actual bearing on who, or what each version of Superman is actually capable of.

The other thing is, Superman is actually able to PUNCH with the force of the Genki Dama. That's a thing he can do. Post Crisis Superman can punch with the force to break planets dozens of times over, and he's faster than Goku in every single edition of Superman, in the Post Crisis main DC continuity he pulled the Magedon Mechanism which was as large as the Earth Moon System at Faster than Light Speeds.

Goku doesn't have ANY showings to match this, combined with the Infinite Crisis showing of him flying through a Red Super Giant for durability, and surviving being at the impact point of Apokolips, and Earth and his showings here (Also main DC continuity.)



http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/9600/moonbust4do6lr.jpg



of him busting a small moon, and reaching Saturn from Earth in the span of 4 minutes.

Now, his obvious focus wasn't speed here, but damage, given the other scans I posted from main DC continuity showcasing his FTL ability.

I get that you are showing different supermen. But when discussing a vs its best to just pick one.

[Fan]

I get that you are showing different supermen. But when discussing a vs its best to just pick one.

I only ever switched supermen when it was claimed I was using a flagarantly overpowered version.

It's a satirical response.

[Prime32]

If you want DBZ feats...
A character with a power level of 10 was capable of lifting a small mountain, and one under 1000 was capable of destroying the moon. A character with a power level of about 10,000 was capable of destroying a planet. Perfect Cell's Kamehameha was stated to be strong enough to destroy a galaxy, and Broly destroyed most of one. End-series power levels are in the hundreds of trillions.
Goku has flown directly through the Sun without harm. Cooler has survived remaining inside a star for an extended period, though in his case he didn't need to breathe. The entire cast regularly tank attacks that can destroy planets.
Goku and Piccolo moved so fast during their fight that "even a god's eyes [could not] see them". Raditz was said to be moving faster than light, with each successive villain being exponentially faster than the last one. Gotenks is seen casually flying around the planet faster than Superman did when he was flying at top speed in the movies. Goku's Instant Transmission has infinite speed.

[deuterio12]

Nothing short of true miracle Earth simply doesn't blow up by the end of the series just from the colateral damage.:smallbiggrin:

Somebody once mentioned that the Earth itself had gained a few power levels from surviving the previous fights, which eventually allowed it to keep up.:smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

If you want DBZ feats...
A character with a power level of 10 was capable of lifting a small mountain, and one under 1000 was capable of destroying the moon. A character with a power level of about 10,000 was capable of destroying a planet. Perfect Cell's Kamehameha was stated to be strong enough to destroy a galaxy, and Broly destroyed most of one. End-series power levels are in the hundreds of trillions.
Goku has flown directly through the Sun without harm. Cooler has survived remaining inside a star for an extended period, though in his case he didn't need to breathe. The entire cast regularly tank attacks that can destroy planets.
Goku and Piccolo moved so fast during their fight that "even a god's eyes [could not] see them". Raditz was said to be moving faster than light, with each successive villain being exponentially faster than the last one. Gotenks is seen casually flying around the planet faster than Superman did when he was flying at top speed in the movies. Goku's Instant Transmission has infinite speed.


Buu screaming tore apart the fabric of reality creating a gateway to a parallel dimension. And Kid Buu blows up a planet by basically being near it. It should be trivial for any of the Buu-saga characters to destroy the whole multiverse if they felt like it. Without getting winded.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Actually, all versions of Superman are canon thanks to the Crisis on Infintie Earths (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_on_Infinite_Earths), Infinite Crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_Crisis), and Final Crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Crisis) storylines where all of the DC Megaverse (All Star, Original, and millions of other supermen.), are all proven to be connected to the DC main canon continuity. These are ALL VALID VERSIONS OF SUPERMAN. There is no "DC Universe", it is a DC Megaverse where everything is connected, and is the established point of over 6 or 7 storylines.

Hardly, you very obivously don't actually read comics. Since otherwise you would know that Action Comics #1 (vol. 2) was published last year in late 2011.

That's right DC wiped the slate. And not just the soft way they did it with Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, or Final Crisis... like COIE. Superman not only has a new origin but major changes in status quo and approach. Marriage to Lois Lane, gone. He's been active maybe 5 years at present. Doomsday still killed him I understand but as Superboy has a new origin among other things it not like even that comic itself is canon.

Supes did not change his present costume to omit the briefs, he has at present only worn two outfits as Superman. He started (in a true call back not even being able to fly) in a T-shirt and jeans with his baby blanket as a cape. That horrible things replacement is a Kyrptonian suit of hypertech manufacture and can do things like change size and hide his cape. Oh and is about as strong as him.

Now I'd not be suprised that there's some mumbling about most event still having "happened" in the past 5 years of the DCU. Not every line was completely rebooted for past events, Green Lantern being the big one. However Superman is as freshly rebooted as he was Post-Crisis. While some events may have happened, this is only a broad thing. They already inherently contradict everything new that happens simply from the suit alone. No detail of that comic is something citable because even if off page an editor or the like claims the events happened we the readers have to make our own adjustments to events to account for the reality going forward. That may work for history, but it sure as hell doesn't work for Supes in-continuity power level.

Nevermind how rarely comics actually think about their events in terms of maintaining a consistent power level. As far as I'm concerned the only sane approach to off the scale character is to rub out single events and try to come up with a more general level of feats. Supes in ten years of publication moved a planet once... I don't care unless its something it happens enough to be normal exertion from Supes or maybe was an absolutely seminal story (which would induce this phenomena much like Kingdom Come changed Billy Batson Supes Tactics forever)

Because if you actually try to go into too much detail you either have to cherry pick or deal with MASSIVE contradictions that have no explanation... For hhmmm Infinite Crisis continuity I'd point out a direct contradiction courteous of Flash in the launch of Grant Morrison's JLA run that while Kyptonians and Martians (and the like) can fly really fast, they cannot break light speed because they don't have a special power to do it. This MAKES SENSE because while we still have to give a lot to make Supes powers work you can make at least something consistent where he takes solar energy and can expend it. Which of course would not allow him FTL, because it would require literally infinite energy to do so and is only something a guy like Flash can do thanks to the Speed Force.

For me I don't buy FTL from Supes, and I mean I don't buy any instance of Supes going that fast, unless its being detailed as a new and separate power with hopefully some clue of its function. The writer screwed up the math or is just using Superman as a plot device to be lazy or cool. Flash himself has an issue like this where he evacuated a city in a time that would require many times the speed of light, but explicitly did it UNDER the speed of light because the writer didn't run the math. Now Flash can go FTL, but even I'd put evacuating a city at that speed as pushing the as pure silliness, but he didn't even DO that so frankly despite the elapsed actual time I will say the only sane way to view the instance was Flash evacuated a city at just under the speed of light in a longer time frame.



While providing scans as a source is admirable, it really doesn't work. Comic book writers have no sense of scale. If DBZ had been around for as long and had a similar number of years with a studio with tons of writers, you can bet you'd see the same shenanigans with Goku as you do with Superman.

And I'm sorry, a Superman that can hold galaxies back with telekinesis, that's immune to magic, not even most Superman fans would accept that as canon.

The sealing of a so-called "time breach" with static electricity was particular logic-fail.

Just because it was done once in a Superman story does not make it legit.

Most of those from DC One Million are not Superman, Clark Kent by that point has evolved into that yellow guy I had a picture of who is even more powerful. Most of those examples would be Kal Kent, a decedent in a line that includes marrying a 5th Dimensional Imp to increase its power.


Actually I'd say that Goku Has been around about as long as Superman in a different continuity.

you must remember that when fans talk about Superman we are usually talking about a particular Superman with a consistant set of feats and continuity. Another person might talk about another Superman and we'll acknowledge them as a completely different character than the one we are talking about.

Depending on where you go in Dragonball that's technically true. Where the manga ends Goku "is" 46 when he flies off with Uub though that's years from birth and I don't care to figure out how time spent dead or in the time chamber works out biologically since Goku experiences plenty when he's dead. That's a distant finale so he'd be in his mid-30s chronologically during the Buu Saga.

Right now Supes is still in his twenties, he starts out just out of college five years before the "present" of the NuDCU. I might be missing a line in there if he like Walked The Earth before getting a job at the Planet, but he's not older then 30.

And yes I agree and will add that actually creating a consistent character with above a certain amount of material means you have to rub out certain instances to begin to be sane.


"Whitebeard can break the world" was bravado at best. He couldn't even break the metal walls the marines rised to trap him and his pirate army.
And didn't Goku fight quite a bit of ghosts here and there?

Bleach characters have been shown to be hurteable by student bare fists. The main problem is spoting them.

Well obviously it wouldn't do him a lot of good since going that far would dunk him in the ocean or in space. Which is why I figure he didn't punch through the walls, it would require more then he could control the collateral of and he standing on water.

More interesting for One Piece to me is the question of Logia users.

And on Bleach I don't recall that much actual injury against spirit entities from anyone without spiritual powers. Ichigo could slash up a Hollow with ease but Chad doesn't kill one with a telephone pole? Course that is so long ago its like bringing up the Sharingan as supposed to be about copying techniques.




We however never see either of those blowing up actual worlds, and a bunch of school girls with some magic items still pose them a decent challenge. We also know that Negi did die, even after being turned into a vampire like Evangeline.

Scale is not nessecarily the same as power in shonen. With a few exceptions the fighters in Negima aren't all that much strong in constitution, Negi has a barrier around him in fights once the series goes to the Magical World so you need certain focues attacks to get through and deal damage at all. Now Negima very much runs on 'type of attack' as being as important as 'power', and never forgets that anyone can be surprised by a clever strategy. Oh Nodoka you saved Mars with minor magic and being underestimated wonderful girl. The actual high level fighting from Ala Alba comes from those that train almost as much as Negi so its hardly school girls with magic items, Setsuna and Kaede get practically zero mileage out of their's in combat. Now Asuna does, but she only stands at her level from her absolute hax ability which the sword is only part of.

However by any reasonable standard once you have people able to keep up at all with Raiten Taisou II they have to be able to give DBZ a good fight at least on speed alone. So Negi, Jack, Eva, Fate, and so forth. I'd love to see Negi eat a high level Kamehameha and turn it right back at 'em.

(And Negi didn't turn into a vampire specifically remember though he is a monster on par with a High Daylight Walker that's for sure)

[Fan]

Hardly, you very obivously don't actually read comics. Since otherwise you would know that Action Comics #1 (vol. 2) was published last year in late 2011.

That's right DC wiped the slate. And not just the soft way they did it with Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis, or Final Crisis... like COIE. Superman not only has a new origin but major changes in status quo and approach. Marriage to Lois Lane, gone. He's been active maybe 5 years at present. Doomsday still killed him I understand but as Superboy has a new origin among other things it not like even that comic itself is canon.

Supes did not change his present costume to omit the briefs, he has at present only worn two outfits as Superman. He started (in a true call back not even being able to fly) in a T-shirt and jeans with his baby blanket as a cape. That horrible things replacement is a Kyrptonian suit of hypertech manufacture and can do things like change size and hide his cape. Oh and is about as strong as him.

Now I'd not be suprised that there's some mumbling about most event still having "happened" in the past 5 years of the DCU. Not every line was completely rebooted for past events, Green Lantern being the big one. However Superman is as freshly rebooted as he was Post-Crisis. While some events may have happened, this is only a broad thing. They already inherently contradict everything new that happens simply from the suit alone. No detail of that comic is something citable because even if off page an editor or the like claims the events happened we the readers have to make our own adjustments to events to account for the reality going forward. That may work for history, but it sure as hell doesn't work for Supes in-continuity power level.

Nevermind how rarely comics actually think about their events in terms of maintaining a consistent power level. As far as I'm concerned the only sane approach to off the scale character is to rub out single events and try to come up with a more general level of feats. Supes in ten years of publication moved a planet once... I don't care unless its something it happens enough to be normal exertion from Supes or maybe was an absolutely seminal story (which would induce this phenomena much like Kingdom Come changed Billy Batson Supes Tactics forever)

Because if you actually try to go into too much detail you either have to cherry pick or deal with MASSIVE contradictions that have no explanation... For hhmmm Infinite Crisis continuity I'd point out a direct contradiction courteous of Flash in the launch of Grant Morrison's JLA run that while Kyptonians and Martians (and the like) can fly really fast, they cannot break light speed because they don't have a special power to do it. This MAKES SENSE because while we still have to give a lot to make Supes powers work you can make at least something consistent where he takes solar energy and can expend it. Which of course would not allow him FTL, because it would require literally infinite energy to do so and is only something a guy like Flash can do thanks to the Speed Force.

For me I don't buy FTL from Supes, and I mean I don't buy any instance of Supes going that fast, unless its being detailed as a new and separate power with hopefully some clue of its function. The writer screwed up the math or is just using Superman as a plot device to be lazy or cool. Flash himself has an issue like this where he evacuated a city in a time that would require many times the speed of light, but explicitly did it UNDER the speed of light because the writer didn't run the math. Now Flash can go FTL, but even I'd put evacuating a city at that speed as pushing the as pure silliness, but he didn't even DO that so frankly despite the elapsed actual time I will say the only sane way to view the instance was Flash evacuated a city at just under the speed of light in a longer time frame.




Most of those from DC One Million are not Superman, Clark Kent by that point has evolved into that yellow guy I had a picture of who is even more powerful. Most of those examples would be Kal Kent, a decedent in a line that includes marrying a 5th Dimensional Imp to increase its power.



Depending on where you go in Dragonball that's technically true. Where the manga ends Goku "is" 46 when he flies off with Uub though that's years from birth and I don't care to figure out how time spent dead or in the time chamber works out biologically since Goku experiences plenty when he's dead. That's a distant finale so he'd be in his mid-30s chronologically during the Buu Saga.

Right now Supes is still in his twenties, he starts out just out of college five years before the "present" of the NuDCU. I might be missing a line in there if he like Walked The Earth before getting a job at the Planet, but he's not older then 30.

And yes I agree and will add that actually creating a consistent character with above a certain amount of material means you have to rub out certain instances to begin to be sane.



Well obviously it wouldn't do him a lot of good since going that far would dunk him in the ocean or in space. Which is why I figure he didn't punch through the walls, it would require more then he could control the collateral of and he standing on water.

More interesting for One Piece to me is the question of Logia users.

And on Bleach I don't recall that much actual injury against spirit entities from anyone without spiritual powers. Ichigo could slash up a Hollow with ease but Chad doesn't kill one with a telephone pole? Course that is so long ago its like bringing up the Sharingan as supposed to be about copying techniques.





Scale is not nessecarily the same as power in shonen. With a few exceptions the fighters in Negima aren't all that much strong in constitution, Negi has a barrier around him in fights once the series goes to the Magical World so you need certain focues attacks to get through and deal damage at all. Now Negima very much runs on 'type of attack' as being as important as 'power', and never forgets that anyone can be surprised by a clever strategy. Oh Nodoka you saved Mars with minor magic and being underestimated wonderful girl. The actual high level fighting from Ala Alba comes from those that train almost as much as Negi so its hardly school girls with magic items, Setsuna and Kaede get practically zero mileage out of their's in combat. Now Asuna does, but she only stands at her level from her absolute hax ability which the sword is only part of.

However by any reasonable standard once you have people able to keep up at all with Raiten Taisou II they have to be able to give DBZ a good fight at least on speed alone. So Negi, Jack, Eva, Fate, and so forth. I'd love to see Negi eat a high level Kamehameha and turn it right back at 'em.

(And Negi didn't turn into a vampire specifically remember though he is a monster on par with a High Daylight Walker that's for sure)

I request scans, because right now, all of this is just your word.

Show me proof, and then show me enough proof that it contradicts the proof that I have already put forth that is MORE than just a 1 time happening, or mention.

My basic understanding of what you have said, is that you're expecting me to take your word, that's in direct contradiction to the.. I dunno.. 5 or 6 scans I've posted? Over the direct happenings in comic, that come with numbers and feats attached..

You have no proof to back up your claims, and nothing I'm reading backs you up either. You have no citations from ANY continuity that's been around long enough to be credible, and honestly, it's based entirely on your word.

There's no reason to disregard happenings in canon just because you don't like them, they aren't single occurances, and it happens on scales equal to that more than once.

NuDC doesn't have enough feats for it to match up to Post Crisis Pre Reboot Supes to me to be valid. This is a two way street, and mine is the one lined with more credibility and comic support.

To take your word, and NuDCU over something with more time established, more story lines, and actual credibility attached to it as it's more than a couple years old, and is thus old enough to have experienced more than 2 or 3 major storylines involving Supes?

Madness.

Again, and what I'm saying here doesn't seem to be getting through, personal interpretations mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. How you prefer to read comics, your business, but in the terms of a versus thread anything backed up by canon with scans, and multiple non plot device driven happenings is 100% viable for use. Your preferences for your personal canon are your own, but you can't deny they happened in comic, and that going just by the amount of scans I've posted, that they are not 1 time happenings.

There is absolutely no reason not to accept those scans other than you just don't want to.

[TheSummoner]

...he busts planets and even stars (Closing a Black Hole with his bare hands.), all the time.

The guy who wrote that... He does understand that Black Holes don't work that way, right?


Nothing short of true miracle Earth simply doesn't blow up by the end of the series just from the colateral damage.:smallbiggrin:

Somebody once mentioned that the Earth itself had gained a few power levels from surviving the previous fights, which eventually allowed it to keep up.:smalltongue:

Calling it now. Earth is a Saiyan. It becomes more powerful every time some idiot nearly destroys it as a side effect of trying to stop some other idiot from destroying it. =P

[Fan]

Regardless of it working that way or not he did it, Superman also flies so fast it turns back time, and a bunch of other crazy stuff.

He's Superman. He has a plethora of powers more vast than a Vegas buffet.

[TheSummoner]

In that case, Goku just gathers the dragonballs and wishes that he was able to beat Superman in a fight. Nothing says he can't other than logic and the way they work and we threw those out the window the moment we accepted it was possible to "close" a black hole.

[Fan]

In that case, Goku just gathers the dragonballs and wishes that he was able to beat Superman in a fight. Nothing says he can't other than logic and the way they work and we threw those out the window the moment we accepted it was possible to "close" a black hole.

Can he gather the dragonballs at faster than light speed, and has he been shown to be able to track them without the dragon radar which isn't in his standard equipment he fights with, nor equipment he was provided with as per scenario?

If he has been shown to do this in series, then it's all fine and dandy. He wishes everything away.

However, since it hasn't, and your reply is clearly one that has no basis in canon, or any happenings that have been show cased in DBZ ever. It's a non issue.

[Xondoure]

Superman has a contingency plan where batman uses a kryptonite ring to beat him up. He's easily much more manageable than certain feats make him out to be. Z characters are on a galactic level by the end, and move so fast the human eye can't track them in most of their fights, so I wouldn't call it a curb stomp by any means.

[Fan]

Superman has a contingency plan where batman uses a kryptonite ring to beat him up. He's easily much more manageable than certain feats make him out to be. Z characters are on a galactic level by the end, and move so fast the human eye can't track them in most of their fights, so I wouldn't call it a curb stomp by any means.

Again, any proof, with actual damage not just "This is X", or "This is Y", actual damage feats. Superman is fast enough to have won a few races with the Flash in the past (though admittedly, the Flash states those were for charity, but they are faster than light races.) ?

I'd like to see a DB scan that shows them blowing up anything more than a planet.

Even Cell's Kamehameha that he claimed was going to blow up the Solar System didn't do **** when it collided with the more powerful Father Son Kamehameha, and when the Father Son Kamehameha collided with Cell it didn't seem to do much damage at all. If it was "really" capable of blowing up a solar system, the damage alone from the beam continuing on from Cell would've at least put it to the point where it'd blow up a mountain range. A solar system is a big place.

So please, show me something that isn't from the Broly movies (Which aren't canon.), and aren't from GT (Which is also, surprise, not canon and omitted by OP.), that showcases any single attack blowing up more than a planet?

Coupled with the fact that you CAN Follow Ki Blasts (And DB is no stranger to faster than eye movements.), that means they wouldn't even be an issue for Superman, he'd literally just step aside faster than Goku's brain can fire a neuron, because Goku hasn't showcased any intelligence feats that give him super human intellect.

You cannot "assume" anything from statements, you cannot take things at face value, you have to go by the direct happenings in series, and you have to go by what they actually do. Otherwise, we can take someone talking themselves up as "The Strongest in the Universe" (Hercule), and bam. Suddenly Hercule > SSJ4 Goku.

Also, the only method of FTL Goku has is instant transmission. Nothing else puts him at a remote instance of that.

[Empedocles]

Again, any proof, with actual damage not just "This is X", or "This is Y", actual damage feats. Superman is fast enough to have won a few races with the Flash in the past (though admittedly, the Flash states those were for charity, but they are faster than light races.) ?

I'd like to see a DB scan that shows them blowing up anything more than a planet.

Even Cell's Kamehameha that he claimed was going to blow up the Solar System didn't do **** when it collided with the more powerful Father Son Kamehameha, and when the Father Son Kamehameha collided with Cell it didn't seem to do much damage at all. If it was "really" capable of blowing up a solar system, the damage alone from the beam continuing on from Cell would've at least put it to the point where it'd blow up a mountain range. A solar system is a big place.

So please, show me something that isn't from the Broly movies (Which aren't canon.), and aren't from GT (Which is also, surprise, not canon and omitted by OP.), that showcases any single attack blowing up more than a planet?

Coupled with the fact that you CAN Follow Ki Blasts (And DB is no stranger to faster than eye movements.), that means they wouldn't even be an issue for Superman, he'd literally just step aside faster than Goku's brain can fire a neuron, because Goku hasn't showcased any intelligence feats that give him super human intellect.

You cannot "assume" anything from statements, you cannot take things at face value, you have to go by the direct happenings in series, and you have to go by what they actually do. Otherwise, we can take someone talking themselves up as "The Strongest in the Universe" (Hercule), and bam. Suddenly Hercule > SSJ4 Goku.

Also, the only method of FTL Goku has is instant transmission. Nothing else puts him at a remote instance of that.

I think for these purposes we can assume Cell's kamehameha would have destroyed the solar system, and that even more powerful attacks later on in the series (the final spirit bomb) have even more power.

[Xondoure]

Batman despite his occasional ridiculousness does not have ftl speeds. And a Kryptonite ring is enough for a contingency plan. Supes isn't always moving faster than light, even when he reasonably should be.

[TheSummoner]

Can he gather the dragonballs at faster than light speed, and has he been shown to be able to track them without the dragon radar which isn't in his standard equipment he fights with, nor equipment he was provided with as per scenario?

If he has been shown to do this in series, then it's all fine and dandy. He wishes everything away.

However, since it hasn't, and your reply is clearly one that has no basis in canon, or any happenings that have been show cased in DBZ ever. It's a non issue.

That was meant as sarcasm, but if you want to take it literally, fine.

Instant Transmission. I don't see why he couldn't easily get the dragon radar even if he doesn't have it in his pocket at the time. If you insist on denying him the radar then he just goes to Namek and uses their dragonballs, which as luck would have it, happen to be kept conveniently in villages rather than being scattered wherever. A bit disrespectful perhaps, but I doubt they'd deny the guy who stopped Freeza. Then poof, Superman is no more.

Again, the dragonballs don't work that way and can't do that, but the same can be said about closing black holes so apparently it doesn't matter.

[Xondoure]

That was meant as sarcasm, but if you want to take it literally, fine.

Instant Transmission. I don't see why he couldn't easily get the dragon radar even if he doesn't have it in his pocket at the time. If you insist on denying him the radar then he just goes to Namek and uses their dragonballs, which as luck would have it, happen to be kept conveniently in villages rather than being scattered wherever. A bit disrespectful perhaps, but I doubt they'd deny the guy who stopped Freeza. Then poof, Superman is no more.

Again, the dragonballs don't work that way and can't do that, but the same can be said about closing black holes so apparently it doesn't matter.

He could wish for kryptonite armor.

[Fan]

He'd have to know that he couldn't beat Superman, and given typical Sayian Bravado, and Goku's love of a direct fight. He wouldn't.

Besides, for the Namek Dragonballs to still be around it'd have to be Pre Freiza saga, and there's no instant transmission there.

As for "easily getting the dragon radar", you do realize Superman isn't going to let him walk away to find his gadgets right?

Superman fights slower because he's afraid of hurting people, in a "Blood Lusted, Character Induced Stupidity" off scenario for them, Superman explodes Goku's head before his brain fires a neuron, because again. Instant Transmission, his only FTL tactic, requires him to raise his hand to his forehead and lock on to a ki signature.

In a battle like this, seconds may as well be years.

Edit, for Proof he can do this faster than people can use their powers-


http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/7604/1171468-6_super.jpg



Nothings stopping him from doing that, and cutting Goku's brain stem. His eyes are also vulnerable to light before anyone says anything, because Solar Flare.

[TheSummoner]

He'd have to know that he couldn't beat Superman, and given typical Sayian Bravado, and Goku's love of a direct fight. He wouldn't.

Besides, for the Namek Dragonballs to still be around it'd have to be Pre Freiza saga, and there's no instant transmission there.

As for "easily getting the dragon radar", you do realize Superman isn't going to let him walk away to find his gadgets right?

Superman fights slower because he's afraid of hurting people, in a "Blood Lusted, Character Induced Stupidity" off scenario for them, Superman explodes Goku's head before his brain fires a neuron, because again. Instant Transmission, his only FTL tactic, requires him to raise his hand to his forehead and lock on to a ki signature.

In a battle like this, seconds may as well be years.

Goku wouldn't have to admit defeat to try the dragonballs, only realize that a direct confrontation relying on pure brawn isn't going to win. It's not unprecedented for him to try something new when he knows the old way isn't gonna work.

The dragonballs can be remade and Kami/Guru aren't the only ones capable of doing it. Considering the Namekians consider them sacred (which is why it would be disrespectful for him to want to use theirs, but again, I can't see them denying him after the whole Freeza incident), I find it more likely that they'd remake them than not.

And how exactly does he do that without causing any sort of people-hurting collateral damage?

[Fan]

Again, in order for this to be a "Fight" they start out obviously having come out from some conflict, and are thus within combat range.

Goku isn't running away to gather the dragonballs. It's not happening. Superman will kill him before he does if he so much as turns his focus away.

Goku being able to do this, implies he is faster than Superman. He is not. His highest speed feat involves instant transmission, which takes longer than it takes Superman to fly up to him, and punch him in the beans about 30 times, and reach up and give him a laser lobotomy. No one else gets hurt, Goku is taken away and given the care a man who just had his ability to think, and control his bodily functions taken away needs.

Faster than Light fights are that way.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I request scans, because right now, all of this is just your word.

Of what? The entire point of that post is that your scans are USELESS because no individual example is meaningful against the larger context of Superman. Nor is most of what I'm saying particularly meaningful.

Oh and this doesn't even bring up how you've failed repeatedly to provide full context of your own scans, attempting to pass off All Star Superman and Kal Kent as if they are Superman. So lets not even bring up credibility since yours right now is in the negative

But you want a little more....

Well I'm not going to go a pirating for a book I no longer have access to so you can track down the relevant issues of JLA #1-4 yourself. It should be issue #4 but I only read it in trade so I don't remember the distinct clearly. If its written by Grant Morrison and is about a bunch of loosers called the Hyperclan you have the right story. Batman beats several of them with a zippo.

As for speed insanity courteous of a bad Flash writer that I spotted online so:

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/supermath_4657.jpg (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WritersCannotDoMath)
Caption: In Super-math it may be 32,000. But in regular math, it's 3,200.

Oh wait I'm sorry that just where I knew to find a link to what I was looking for. But it seemed a pertinent demonstration of why individual examples are to be disregarded when it comes to character published for longer then anyone on this thread has been alive.

Here we are in link form because the pic contains a profane word. (http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5217/12312434.png)


My basic understanding of what you have said, is that you're expecting me to take your word, that's in direct contradiction to the.. I dunno.. 5 or 6 scans I've posted? Over the direct happenings in comic, that come with numbers and feats attached.

Oh the scans that don't mention how the very first one is from the out-of-continuity and deliberately gee-whiz ode to the Silver Age All Star Superman... where Superman is dying from his powers overloading after flying too close to the sun? Or trying to pass off Kal Kent as Clark Kent?

If you wanna play the authority game you gotta not start in the hole alright.



NuDC doesn't have enough feats for it to match up to Post Crisis Pre Reboot Supes to me to be valid.

Pick your side:

-Either you go for the veneer of "official" and take what is in-continuity as published by DC Comics. Which means New 52 whether you like it or not.

-Or take the position that you are not acknowledging canon but putting together Superman as you please. And then argue for the validity of your chosen method.

This is a binary situation here.


To take your word, and NuDCU over something with more time established, more story lines, and actual credibility attached to it as it's more than a couple years old, and is thus old enough to have experienced more than 2 or 3 major storylines involving Supes?

Madness.

Oh so then you accept that what is "canon" Superman is not automatically the true essence of Superman then?


Regardless of it working that way or not he did it, Superman also flies so fast it turns back time, and a bunch of other crazy stuff.

He's Superman. He has a plethora of powers more vast than a Vegas buffet.

This attitude has ruined Superman time and again. It means only poor stories and diminishing returns. Its why his stories have to be wiped out with force during reboots. It leads inevitably to the conclusion that Superman is a lazy jerk.

It why people that have never read an issue of Action Comics can hate on him as terrible horrible trash character.... and be right.

[Traab]

In all honesty, supermans pure potential speed alone ends the debate. Even ignoring crap like halting a universe with his mind, or breaking reality with his fist, superman is still more than strong enough to make gokus head explode into a fine red mist before he even knows he is under attack. There are just too many comics from all different variations of superman that talk about intergalactic, or at least interplanetary travel that make him way faster than anything goku can handle.

Honestly, im surprised they havent done a story yet where superman mentions that if he ever used his full speed inside earths atmosphere, it would literally tear apart the atoms that make up the air and cause a continuous atom bomb level blast wave that follows behind him wherever he goes. Or maybe they have, im sure they have talked about why superman can fly to pluto in 30 seconds, but takes almost as long to reach lois on the other side of town.

[TheSummoner]

Honestly, im surprised they havent done a story yet where superman mentions that if he ever used his full speed inside earths atmosphere, it would literally tear apart the atoms that make up the air and cause a continuous atom bomb level blast wave that follows behind him wherever he goes. Or maybe they have, im sure they have talked about why superman can fly to pluto in 30 seconds, but takes almost as long to reach lois on the other side of town.

Which is why I want to know how he can do it against Goku without causing any sort of side effects that would harm civilians.

I'm not a physicist. Hell, I slept through my physics class because my teacher was senile and barely tought, instead preferring to talk about his love for McDonalds and favorite vacation spots. I'm no expert, but I'd imagine there would be some serious side effects to moving faster than the speed of light.

[Fan]

Of what? The entire point of that post is that your scans are USELESS because no individual example is meaningful against the larger context of Superman. Nor is most of what I'm saying particularly meaningful.

Oh and this doesn't even bring up how you've failed repeatedly to provide full context of your own scans, attempting to pass off All Star Superman and Kal Kent as if they are Superman. So lets not even bring up credibility since yours right now is in the negative

But you want a little more....

Well I'm not going to go a pirating for a book I no longer have access to so you can track down the relevant issues of JLA #1-4 yourself. It should be issue #4 but I only read it in trade so I don't remember the distinct clearly. If its written by Grant Morrison and is about a bunch of loosers called the Hyperclan you have the right story. Batman beats several of them with a zippo.

As for speed insanity courteous of a bad Flash writer that I spotted online so:

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/supermath_4657.jpg (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WritersCannotDoMath)
Caption: In Super-math it may be 32,000. But in regular math, it's 3,200.

Oh wait I'm sorry that just where I knew to find a link to what I was looking for. But it seemed a pertinent demonstration of why individual examples are to be disregarded when it comes to character published for longer then anyone on this thread has been alive.

Here we are in link form because the pic contains a profane word. (http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/5217/12312434.png)



Oh the scans that don't mention how the very first one is from the out-of-continuity and deliberately gee-whiz ode to the Silver Age All Star Superman... where Superman is dying from his powers overloading after flying too close to the sun? Or trying to pass off Kal Kent as Clark Kent?

If you wanna play the authority game you gotta not start in the hole alright.




Pick your side:

-Either you go for the veneer of "official" and take what is in-continuity as published by DC Comics. Which means New 52 whether you like it or not.

-Or take the position that you are not acknowledging canon but putting together Superman as you please. And then argue for the validity of your chosen method.

This is a binary situation here.



Oh so then you accept that what is "canon" Superman is not automatically the true essence of Superman then?



This attitude has ruined Superman time and again. It means only poor stories and diminishing returns. Its why his stories have to be wiped out with force during reboots. It leads inevitably to the conclusion that Superman is a lazy jerk.

It why people that have never read an issue of Action Comics can hate on him as terrible horrible trash character.... and be right.

Again, there is no specified version of Superman that is attached to a permanent canon status. There are Seperate Supermen yes, and my entire argument has revolved, as I have said, that the Supermen are different People. (Hence my mention of Crisis on Infinite Earths, Final Crisis etc.)

The Supermen I've presented, and EVERY INSTANCE OF SUPERMAN can beat Goku. There is no end to the scan material I could provide for any of them except DC Nu Universe because it doesn't have enough done with it yet to be considered viable. It's not that it's not canon, it's that it hasn't done enough or explored it's characters fully.

It's like taking everything that happens in Star Wars solely by what happens in A New Hope, and completely disregarding the potential existence of The Empire Strikes Back, or Return of the Jedi. There WILL be more from DC new Superman. I enjoy DC New Superman because it's a fresh character, and we're still learning more about him. He has yet to even face his most severe challenges, and as such, has not yet displayed his full power.

When this happens. Yes, this means I'm not counting Doomsday, because NOT ENOUGH HAS BEEN SHOWCASED YET. I have said this before, and I will continue saying it until the point has been driven across.

Because EVERY VERSION OF SUPERMAN EVER. Is capable of FTL. There is not a version of him that does not do this except for DCAU Superman, though this is debatable.

Every version of Superman ever, INCLUDING, DCAU Superman is capable of, and has used their laser version to lobotmize someone through their eyeballs or skull. Most of the time Doomsday.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Which is why I want to know how he can do it against Goku without causing any sort of side effects that would harm civilians.

I'm not a physicist. Hell, I slept through my physics class because my teacher was senile and barely tought, instead preferring to talk about his love for McDonalds and favorite vacation spots. I'm no expert, but I'd imagine there would be some serious side effects to moving faster than the speed of light.

To start with there's having infinite energy. I mean like the unreachable mathematical concept not just impractically huge, ab-so-lutely literally. More energy then you could have if you converted all the matter of the universe into energy in a single moment.

Then the distortion of out running the only way you see even getting close to light speed has weird effects. Then there's you know the problem of time... this is one I can't make heads or tails of when they start talking about no agreement between relative frames of reference.

As for side effects, that applies to far lesser feats. There's no way Superman can for example move planets. Actually I mispoke rather its actually quite easy, its an object in space afterall any amount of force will technically move it. However to move it significantly Supes would have to apply force that would make moving a planet rather like stopping a quilt with a sowing needle. You just pop right through and the effort is wasted. Heck this goes down as far as buildings.

And down even further, there's no way Supes can even break the speed of sound over populated areas without shattering windows. Try it in a city and hundreds may be hurt or killed.

I've even heard that Supes shouldn't be capable of his iconic car stunt since it would tear apart, but that one I don't believe entirely believe unless it also applies to grabbing the frame. Certainly not every bit though.

Most I sweep under suspension of disbelief. Its not like what he does makes sense or even should, I just draw have a scale that once you are off it you are into plot device. And Goku and Superman both are in different ways.

[Empedocles]

Hey so some of you guys have mentioned what Goku would do...but this is DBZ, not Goku. Keep in mind that a lot of ethical problems could be happily solved by Vegeta's contributions, or a slew of villains :smallbiggrin:

[Xondoure]

But Superman never fights at FTL speed. So why is this any more relevant than Goku teleporting other places?

[Fan]

But Superman never fights at FTL speed. So why is this any more relevant than Goku teleporting other places?

Superman DOES fight at the very least light speeds, in fact, he's blown up planets at said speed, and maintained these speeds in order to use the gain of mass to do more damage.



http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/576/130404-882597_17_super_super.jpg

[Soras Teva Gee]

Superman DOES fight at the very least light speeds, in fact, he's blown up planets at said speed, and maintained these speeds in order to use the gain of mass to do more damage.



http://media.animevice.com/uploads/0/576/130404-882597_17_super_super.jpg



This is a QUINTESSENTIAL example not of Superman's power, but the absolute failure of the writer to understand physics. The properties of going under lightspeed that gives Supes an advantage here... also mean he can't go FTL.

FTL might as well be an entirely separate super power.

Oh and let's note again your misrepresentation of your own scans. He doesn't go FTL here at all, he is in fact explicitly not doing that.

[Fan]

This is a QUINTESSENTIAL example not of Superman's power, but the absolute failure of the writer to understand physics. The properties of going under lightspeed that gives Supes an advantage here... also mean he can't go FTL.

FTL might as well be an entirely separate super power.

Oh and let's note again your misrepresentation of your own scans. He doesn't go FTL here at all, he is in fact explicitly not doing that.

I.. said light speed.

I.. said Light speed.

I never said FTL.

Are you... How. How do you even get this.

He specifically says "This is an unusual effort for the man of steel, he only works this hard WHEN HE IS ABOUT TO GO FASTER THAN LIGHT." DIRECTLY STATING HE IS CAPABLE OF THIS, BUT CHOOSING NOT TO.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I.. said light speed.

I.. said Light speed.

I never said FTL.

Are you... How. How do you even get this.

He specifically says "This is an unusual effort for the man of steel, he only works this hard WHEN HE IS ABOUT TO GO FASTER THAN LIGHT." DIRECTLY STATING HE IS CAPABLE OF THIS, BUT CHOOSING NOT TO.

Okay, I think at this point you're arguing semantics.

[Fan]

Okay, I think at this point you're arguing semantics.

How is that semantics? I have other scans directly showing him moving at faster than light speeds in the same continuity.

It's directly said, no ambiguity. No messing around. That Superman can in fact go Faster than Light in that exact statement, right there, and that he is choosing not to do so because he wants the extra mass from relativity. There is no clever word play. There is no hyperbole, or exaggeration, or bravado. It is mimic'd by his actions as it is said, and is supported by previous happenings in continuity.

The argument that it does not, is.. just.. what. What is this. How does that logic even function? Is that even considered thought?

[Hiro Protagonest]

How is that semantics? I have other scans directly showing him moving at faster than light speeds in the same continuity.

And that is FTL. Not light speed.

[Fan]

Going faster is now not proof of ability to go slower?

Faster than Light Travel obviously implies ability to go at Light Speed, as you have to accelerate to Light Speed and beyond in order to get to Faster than Light Travel.

It is not teleportation like Instant Transmission.

The fact that this needs to be said...

[Devonix]

To start with there's having infinite energy. I mean like the unreachable mathematical concept not just impractically huge, ab-so-lutely literally. More energy then you could have if you converted all the matter of the universe into energy in a single moment.

Then the distortion of out running the only way you see even getting close to light speed has weird effects. Then there's you know the problem of time... this is one I can't make heads or tails of when they start talking about no agreement between relative frames of reference.

As for side effects, that applies to far lesser feats. There's no way Superman can for example move planets. Actually I mispoke rather its actually quite easy, its an object in space afterall any amount of force will technically move it. However to move it significantly Supes would have to apply force that would make moving a planet rather like stopping a quilt with a sowing needle. You just pop right through and the effort is wasted. Heck this goes down as far as buildings.

And down even further, there's no way Supes can even break the speed of sound over populated areas without shattering windows. Try it in a city and hundreds may be hurt or killed.

I've even heard that Supes shouldn't be capable of his iconic car stunt since it would tear apart, but that one I don't believe entirely believe unless it also applies to grabbing the frame. Certainly not every bit though.

Most I sweep under suspension of disbelief. Its not like what he does makes sense or even should, I just draw have a scale that once you are off it you are into plot device. And Goku and Superman both are in different ways.



Is it strange that Superman can move planets Yes YES it is. does it defy the laws of physics Yes YES it does.

But that doesn't stop the fact that it happens. Doesn't stop the fact that So can Thor, Gladiator, Captain Marvel and any number of other characters in comics.

Same goes for characters going and fighting at FTL its a thing that you just have to accept when reading these characters.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Okay, I think at this point you're arguing semantics.

Not since it was in response to fighting at FTL which it is not an example of

And is an example of utterrly stupid treatment of physics, just under lightspeed and lightspeed is one of the most critical differences out there. Because you cannot accelerate to lightspeed. It requires infinite energy and infinite time to do it in. The closer you get the more this is so.

Choosing both relativity and FTL in the same page a perfect demonstration of why I simply disregard such things. Its that monstrously stupid and ignorant on the writer.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Going faster is now not proof of ability to go slower?

...I don't even...

If I read the thread correctly, the entire point of your argument about his speed was that he could go faster than light.

[Devonix]

In all honesty, supermans pure potential speed alone ends the debate. Even ignoring crap like halting a universe with his mind, or breaking reality with his fist, superman is still more than strong enough to make gokus head explode into a fine red mist before he even knows he is under attack. There are just too many comics from all different variations of superman that talk about intergalactic, or at least interplanetary travel that make him way faster than anything goku can handle.

Honestly, im surprised they havent done a story yet where superman mentions that if he ever used his full speed inside earths atmosphere, it would literally tear apart the atoms that make up the air and cause a continuous atom bomb level blast wave that follows behind him wherever he goes. Or maybe they have, im sure they have talked about why superman can fly to pluto in 30 seconds, but takes almost as long to reach lois on the other side of town.

Actually that's a pretty common thing. It's why Supes never fights at faster than light except when he's in space combat. Superman does not have acess to the Speed Force and as such there is no negation of the adverse affects of speed to the surrounding area.

[Fan]

The point is, that doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter how stupid you think the writer is, or how stupid he actually is.

It doesn't matter, how contrived or out of place the plot elements are.

It doesn't matter, what fans conceive as their ideals.

It's the direct, in comic, events that are repeated multiple times throughout story and backed up in narrative.

It is directly stated that he is able to travel faster than light, and he is choosing not to. This wouldn't mean ****, if earlier in continuity he hadn't maintained trans light speeds for FOUR MONTHS as posted earlier in thread.

It is as simple as A, and B.

Goku does not have Superhuman thought processes, he is never shown to, ever. There is nothing indicating he's even intelligent by human standards. He will never be an inventor. He will never do anything, except save the world, and maybe create his own form of martial art. This is a testament to martial skill, not to intelligence.

Superman is smart enough to develop cures for diseases, create robots, and millions of other things, and has Super Senses as one of his stated powers.

Goku can sense ki, that is his stated power, however. His speed feats, his durability feats, and his power feats don't match up to the Man of Steel.

He loses in almost every continuity but DCAU. There's not a Superman who can't beat him in comic continuity.

[Devonix]

Not since it was in response to fighting at FTL which it is not an example of

And is an example of utterrly stupid treatment of physics, just under lightspeed and lightspeed is one of the most critical differences out there. Because you cannot accelerate to lightspeed. It requires infinite energy and infinite time to do it in. The closer you get the more this is so.

Choosing both relativity and FTL in the same page a perfect demonstration of why I simply disregard such things. Its that monstrously stupid and ignorant on the writer.

Writers doing complete and utter fail at science don't really count. its Comic book science. not real life science. you can buy that someone being a solar battery allows them to defy gravity, but not that? It's all utter nonsense but then so is just about everything that happens in comics and manga.

[Jallorn]

Writers doing complete and utter fail at science don't really count. its Comic book science. not real life science. you can buy that someone being a solar battery allows them to defy gravity, but not that? It's all utter nonsense but then so is just about everything that happens in comics and manga.

I don't see how that matters. DBZ functions under anime/manga physics which can be just as loose as Comic Book physics.

Now, can we move past Superman to something else? This argument feels very much like it's not going anywhere soon and seems to have become more about what Supes can do and less about whether or not he can beat Goku/DBZ.

[TheSummoner]

Writers doing complete and utter fail at science don't really count. its Comic book science. not real life science. you can buy that someone being a solar battery allows them to defy gravity, but not that? It's all utter nonsense but then so is just about everything that happens in comics and manga.

There are degrees of fail though.

Yes, I find it perfectly acceptable that Superman can fly and shoot lasers out of his eyes and that Goku can teleport. I draw the line at "Superman can close black holes barehanded" Black. Holes. Do. Not. Work. That. Way.

See... I think the difference to me is that one thing says a character has a certain ability and another says that something works a way that it explicitly does not. That is where I draw the line.

Ok, fine, Superman wins because he is powered by bullcrap and nonsence. How about a new matchup, preferrably against a less boringly broken opponent.

[Devonix]

I don't see how that matters. DBZ functions under anime/manga physics which can be just as loose as Comic Book physics.

Now, can we move past Superman to something else? This argument feels very much like it's not going anywhere soon and seems to have become more about what Supes can do and less about whether or not he can beat Goku/DBZ.

That's why I listed Manga in my post. I wasn't talking about Superman there really. Just the fact that if we try to bring real world science into any discussion of characters in either universe then we should just pack up and go home because it isn't gonna make a lick of sense.

[Fan]

There are degrees of fail though.

Yes, I find it perfectly acceptable that Superman can fly and shoot lasers out of his eyes and that Goku can teleport. I draw the line at "Superman can close black holes barehanded" Black. Holes. Do. Not. Work. That. Way.

See... I think the difference to me is that one thing says a character has a certain ability and another says that something works a way that it explicitly does not. That is where I draw the line.

Ok, fine, Superman wins because he is powered by bullcrap and nonsence. How about a new matchup, preferrably against a less boringly broken opponent.

And Goku isn't powered by Bull Crap and nonsense?

At least Superman absorbs his power from stars, Goku just magically produces it through spiritual magic called Ki, and Power Levels.

And don't even get me started on how blowing up the moon has absolutely no ill side effects in DBZ canon.

[TheSummoner]

And Goku isn't powered by Bull Crap and nonsense?

At least Superman absorbs his power from stars, Goku just magically produces it through spiritual magic called Ki, and Power Levels.

And don't even get me started on how blowing up the moon has absolutely no ill side effects in DBZ canon.

Superman absorbing power from stars and Goku producing it through Ki are both fine in my eyes. Both are character abilities. Both are unrealistic, but neither explicitly say that real world things work differently than they do.

You're right. The moon being blown up should've caused all sorts of problems, however that's quite irrelevent in regard to character powers unless you're trying to argue that a character should not be capable of blowing up the moon in the first place.

I'll say it again... Black holes do not work that way! Goodnight! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmDVHs-juPo)

You know it. I know it. Anyone whose taken a 3rd grade science class knows it. Whoever wrote that probably thought it would be cool or badass, but it just comes off incredibly stupid if you put any thought into it at all. It's just bad writing. That's the sort of "bullcrap and nonsense" that I was referring to.

[Xondoure]

I still don't see any canon for Supes moving that fast in combat. And even if you can hash up an example or two it doesn't beat the countless (probably literally as I'm sure there are comics lost to the ages) times he's fought without it.

[Devonix]

I still don't see any canon for Supes moving that fast in combat. And even if you can hash up an example or two it doesn't beat the countless (probably literally as I'm sure there are comics lost to the ages) times he's fought without it.

How many examples would I need to post to make it qualify? :smallwink:

[Devonix]

Superman absorbing power from stars and Goku producing it through Ki are both fine in my eyes. Both are character abilities. Both are unrealistic, but neither explicitly say that real world things work differently than they do.

You're right. The moon being blown up should've caused all sorts of problems, however that's quite irrelevent in regard to character powers unless you're trying to argue that a character should not be capable of blowing up the moon in the first place.

I'll say it again... Black holes do not work that way! Goodnight! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmDVHs-juPo)

You know it. I know it. Anyone whose taken a 3rd grade science class knows it. Whoever wrote that probably thought it would be cool or badass, but it just comes off incredibly stupid if you put any thought into it at all. It's just bad writing. That's the sort of "bullcrap and nonsense" that I was referring to.


Its super powered nonsense. Of course it doesn't work that way. Next thing you'll be telling me that Giant Robots can't throw galaxies at each other an then we'll have god killing catgirls left and right. won't someone please think of the catgirls. :smallfrown:

[TheSummoner]

No, Superman is superpowered nonsense. Goku is superpowered nonsense. I'm fine with superpowered nonsense.

Black Holes are a real thing that operate under real world physical laws. They are not literal holes. You can not close and open them through raw power or attach a zipper so you can open and close them at will. You can not sew them shut with a needle and thread like you could if a hole tore open on your favorite pair of pants.

If you are using real world things, they should work as they do in the real world or you better have a damn good explanation for why they don't.

[Devonix]

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/4724/supermanenterprise.jpg

Next thing you'll be telling me that people can't talk in space

[Devonix]

also I don't know which black hole you're talking about but if its the time I think it is then he was using essentually a force field to contain the gravitational energy and then his strength to collapse the field his body was generating down to size.

[TheSummoner]

I really can't say. I was referring to a quote by Fan claiming that Superman once closed a black hole with his bare hands.

And even if the two scenarios are one in the same, a black hole is a singularity. You really don't get any more "down to size" than that.

[Fan]

Another in continuity Scan of him dealing out planet crushing blows-



http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/9/93189/1875617-1806810_trinity05003vl7_super_super.jpg



Goku can charge up an attack to do this, Superman can punch you and achieve this effect. He punches faster than Goku can move as well.

End game.

The Superman that closed the Blackhole as the Pre Crisis Superman writer, modern Superman instead closes rifts in time.

[Devonix]

Fan just let it go. Scans aren't really helping anything. and you don't seem to be enjoying yourself.

[Fan]

How are scans not helping?

They are literally the only unbiased evidence of in continuity strength. Wiki's can be edited by trolls, opinions are opinions.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Goku can charge up an attack to do this, Superman can punch you and achieve this effect. He punches faster than Goku can move as well. .

Master Roshi has to charge up to shatter a small planet. And he could kill... Raditz with that. It would even scratch any latter villains.

Everyone by, even comparative weaklings are planet smashingly powerful.

With a punch.

[Xondoure]

Superman is a figure with millions of scans. You can find a scan of him doing hundreds upon hundreds of contradicting things.

And here's an example of Dragon Ball Z at the beginning of the show. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOJHE9nxOzg&t=8m40s) Yes, the actual video is a parody, and that probably took more time. But here's the thing, this is before power creep up until the point where the last Z fight had the entire universe in the balance. And I'm honestly not sure the speed of that battle is on any proper scale.

It is worth noting whoever fights the saiyans has to kill them in the first round. Otherwise...

[Fan]

That's a filler arc leading up to the Sayain Saga, and was never in the manga. Not canon.

Also again, show me them blowing up a planet with a punch. Show me them shattering so much as a MOUNTAIN with a punch in a canon arc. I've seen DBZ, I've read the manga. This doesn't happen. All the big destructive feats are from ki attacks.

Also, again, show me GOKU not having to charge up to blow up a planet, or counter a planet busting attack.

And again, it's not contradictory if it's the FIFTH SCAN I'VE POSTED OF HIM DOING JUST THAT. What you're saying about it being contradictory has no basis in actual fact. At all. Nor will it ever.

If you don't start posting scans, or any canon videos, to back up statements I'm going to take this as a concession, because opinions on canon are not valid arguments, and neither are non canon segments. We could always use DC What if's if you'd like. I hear those get pretty zany.

[Devonix]

Master Roshi has to charge up to shatter a small planet. And he could kill... Raditz with that. It would even scratch any latter villains.

Everyone by, even comparative weaklings are planet smashingly powerful.

With a punch.

And then Krillin beans Goku with a rock :smallcool:

[Xondoure]

That's a filler arc leading up to the Sayain Saga, and was never in the manga. Not canon.

Also again, show me them blowing up a planet with a punch. Show me them shattering so much as a MOUNTAIN with a punch in a canon arc. I've seen DBZ, I've read the manga. This doesn't happen. All the big destructive feats are from ki attacks.

Also, again, show me GOKU not having to charge up to blow up a planet, or counter a planet busting attack.

And yet you've ignored statements that the Z characters could say, blow up a solar system.

[Devonix]

Wow I can litteraly feel the rage from here. Almost like it is some kind of


:smallcool: Fanrage YEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!

[Tvtyrant]

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn255/electricwhiteboy/derail2.jpg
I suggest we get back to the original topic. My idea to place against DBZ would be the Star Wars Expanded Universe, with its Galaxy Gun and Suncrusher.

[Fan]

And yet you've ignored statements that the Z characters could say, blow up a solar system.

Back it up with in manga showings, or canonical videos with it actually happening.

That's all I'm asking. Provide me the same service I've given you.

Back it up.

[Devonix]

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn255/electricwhiteboy/derail2.jpg
I suggest we get back to the original topic. My idea to place against DBZ would be the Star Wars Expanded Universe, with its Galaxy Gun and Suncrusher.

Centerpoint station owns the entire DBZ cosmology except for the afterlife

Though Luke can now send himself into the afterlife whenever he wants to apparently and is working on mastering teleportation.

[Devonix]

Centerpoint station owns the entire DBZ cosmology except for the afterlife

Though Luke can now send himself into the afterlife whenever he wants to apparently and is working on mastering teleportation.

however if any of them get close to anything short of teh suncrusher they can easily destroy them.

[Jallorn]

I still want to discuss the possibility of D Grey Man fighting pre-Saiyin, or at least pre-Vegeta DBZ.

Star Wars doesn't really match up well. DBZ characters mostly move faster than even Jedi are capable of, but then most of them also can't survive in space forever, making them vulnerable to the superweapons that never have to enter a planet's atmosphere.

[Devonix]

time for sleep bye

[TheSummoner]

Back it up with in manga showings, or canonical videos with it actually happening.

That's all I'm asking. Provide me the same service I've given you.

Back it up.

Ok, Freeza.

Freeza, who was holding back A LOT because he was already weakened from a prolongued fight against 5 guys (+1 healer) blew up Namek. And survived it. And really did more damage to himself than any of his opponents did (not saying Goku didn't beat him crapless, just that it's hard to compare with accidently cutting yourself in half and then getting caught in the explosion of a planet that you yourself blew up.

And this is maybe ~1/3 of the way through Z and the level of power only skyrocketed from there.

If you accept the Bardock movie as canon (Toriyama does!) then Freeza easily blew up Planet Vegeta in his much weaker first form.

Fairly sure it was mentioned that there was the risk of Vegeta blowing up earth in the Saiyan arc too, but I'm really not feeling like tracking down clips.

Oh, and back in Dragonball, Roshi DID kinda blow up the moon with his (IIRC) less than 100 power level.

[Fan]

Again, I'm not denying their planet busters with their KI ATTACKS.

They are, this is what makes them contenders.

I'm saying that I want to see backing, with actual feats of them doing it, for Solar System level busters, with casual effort that is implied by Dragonball fans for SSJ4 Goku.

I don't want to hear "Well by Power Scaling", or "Well he should", I want to see manga scans of him doing it, or a video of him just straight up punching a star, and having it explode.

Because no one denies that he's equal to regular Supes strength with ki attacks, but Ki attacks take time to charge, and we don't see the planet busters getting spammed.

With his actual punches, or anything that he could use in approaching Light Speed Combat (The Warp Kamehameha does not count due to charge time, and the aforementioned.), something that would put him at Planet Buster, or the aforementioned Solar System Buster level without approaching light speed combat.

The Moon Feat? Canon, and backed. That's good for Roshi.

Blowing up Namek? Freiza didn't do it in 1 shot at 100% Power, but I can believe he could do it.

I don't disbelieve any of these because they are well supported in multiple instances for the same characters throughout the shows with actual use of their power.

Because to quote Vegeta "Power levels are bull****.".

[Soras Teva Gee]

Ok, Freeza.

Freeza, who was holding back A LOT because he was already weakened from a prolongued fight against 5 guys (+1 healer) blew up Namek. And survived it. And really did more damage to himself than any of his opponents did (not saying Goku didn't beat him crapless, just that it's hard to compare with accidently cutting yourself in half and then getting caught in the explosion of a planet that you yourself blew up.

And still the planet blowing up did less damage to Freeza, next time he shows up he's sliced to tiny bits and casually reduced to ash. Trunks can do more in under a second with one hand then an entire planetary exsplosion.


If you accept the Bardock movie as canon (Toriyama does!) then Freeza easily blew up Planet Vegeta in his much weaker first form.

And we should note, without delay. Pretty much everyone in DBZ can blow up a planet, they all just have motives that make that less important.

That's something Supes has over most in the setting, lung capacity.


Oh, and back in Dragonball, Roshi DID kinda blow up the moon with his (IIRC) less than 100 power level.

To be fair that was measured while he's just hanging around his house at rest and I believe with a weighted shell. Given where he comes in by Dragon Ball but not DBZ standards Roshi at an absolute (and impractical) peak charge of his power is probably a fair bit higher. He got super buff for all of like thirty seconds when he busted the Moon as Jackie Chun.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

@Fan: Goku can also move at FTL speeds. That thing, that fwip thing that happens and he disappears and no one can see him or his opponent for an extended time? That's faster than light. Light cannot reflect off of him, and so it looks like he's not there, because he outran the light. He obviously functions just fine at those speeds.

Goku is not an idiot. He's childlike and naive at times, but his genius lies in competitive arts. He can size up an opponent and devise clever, if sometimes blunt, strategies to win victory. Are they Lord Vetinari Level schemes of infinite cunning and deception? No. He is just exceptionally good at figuring out how to beat the unholy spunk outta any jerk who crosses his path. Superman could kill Goku, but he'd have to hit him. In order to hit him, Superman would have to touch him, and he's not gonna touch him. Same goes for Goku. They'd constantly outrun each other's non-physical attacks, and they could dodge each other's punches. If a hit landed...well they're both Gods. If they didn't die simultaneously from the super-luminal impact, they'd shrug it off and continue until they got hungry and called it a draw.

/Superman vs Goku.

I will now claim that Yusuke Urameshi of YuYu Hakusho could take on Goku in a straight fight up to and including Namek-Arc Goku (no Super Sayian). Aaaaand...go!

[Bitter]

Superman would win. He's a 2d representation of the ultimate 4th (5th?) dimensional hyperstory. His powers and abilities are at the level of power needed to tell an interesting story while still coming out on top or level.

The best Goku can hope for is them realising that they're both heroes and the fight ending without a victor, otherwise it will continue .

[Fan]

@Fan: Goku can also move at FTL speeds. That thing, that fwip thing that happens and he disappears and no one can see him or his opponent for an extended time? That's faster than light. Light cannot reflect off of him, and so it looks like he's not there, because he outran the light. He obviously functions just fine at those speeds.

Goku is not an idiot. He's childlike and naive at times, but his genius lies in competitive arts. He can size up an opponent and devise clever, if sometimes blunt, strategies to win victory. Are they Lord Vetinari Level schemes of infinite cunning and deception? No. He is just exceptionally good at figuring out how to beat the unholy spunk outta any jerk who crosses his path. Superman could kill Goku, but he'd have to hit him. In order to hit him, Superman would have to touch him, and he's not gonna touch him. Same goes for Goku. They'd constantly outrun each other's non-physical attacks, and they could dodge each other's punches. If a hit landed...well they're both Gods. If they didn't die simultaneously from the super-luminal impact, they'd shrug it off and continue until they got hungry and called it a draw.

/Superman vs Goku.

I will now claim that Yusuke Urameshi of YuYu Hakusho could take on Goku in a straight fight up to and including Namek-Arc Goku (no Super Sayian). Aaaaand...go!

No, he can't.

That "fwip" is an example of faster than eye movement at best. When you look at the distances they actually cross in that time, it's not even that. It's just artistic laziness, however, due to them vanishing from vision we have to give them the leniency of manga physics and assume it is in fact faster than eye movement.

However, there is no way that it is faster than light, or even light speed.

It's AT BEST, hypersonic, and even then that's only going by LATE manga feats where we see a sonic boom.

I've seen, and read DBZ. I was an ardent fan of the series when I was younger.

I'm just not the type to hand it to someone who's techniques take longer to preform than it does for them to die.

And again, I'm not seeing anything that puts them at even mountain busters with their physical attacks. I whole heartedly agree with planet busting ki attacks, but Ki attacks can be resisted by them pushing ki out of their bodies, if it was the same for physical attacks, they wouldn't punch each other.

Has anyone even punched a planetoid, or planet, or moon, or anything even as large as a mountain and had it explode?

[TheSummoner]

And again, I'm not seeing anything that puts them at even mountain busters with their physical attacks. I whole heartedly agree with planet busting ki attacks, but Ki attacks can be resisted by them pushing ki out of their bodies, if it was the same for physical attacks, they wouldn't punch each other.

Has anyone even punched a planetoid, or planet, or moon, or anything even as large as a mountain and had it explode?

... Why would they bother punching a mountain, planetoid, or moon when they can accompllish the same with energy attacks? Why would they blow up a planet when they're typically ON the only planet they have to worry about and aren't able to breathe in space.

Seriously... If you're going to start tacking on ridiculous requirements like "They can't use Ki if we're going to gague their power" then let's atleast make it even. Fine. We'll only use their power without Ki as a measurement and Superman isn't allowed access to the energy he absorbs from the sun. No substitute stars either.

I don't even know why we're still having this conversation. Does anyone other than you even care about Superman anymore? Because the impression I'm getting is that several people, myself included, would much rather move on to a more interesting matchup against a less boring opponent. Preferrably one where you can't pick and choose between multiple, often contradictory versions of a character older than my grandpa with a nonsense continuity snarl that gets flushed down the toilet and re-written from the beginning every couple of years.

Now that that's out of my system... If we're limiting Goku to pre-Super Saiyan, and giving Yusuke Urameshi access to his highest level of power from the series, then I give it to Yusuke. DBZ is simply a higher powered series than Yu Yu Hakusho, but cutting Goku off before he turns Super Saiyan is quite limiting.

[Traab]

Actually, I get his point, he is trying to say that superman is physically powerful enough to punch planets and make them explode. He also has his energy attacks that do similar damage. Do any of the dragonball cast have similar physical prowess? Thats what he is asking, CAN any of the crew, good bad or indifferent, haul back and pimp slap a mountain range into orbit? Can they punch hard enough to make a planet explode? If not, thats his point, they can charge up an attack and blow up the world, superman can throw a punch and do the same. So he has the advantage there because he doesnt need to spend time building his planet busting attack up. He doesent have to spend 30 seconds screaming "KA ME HA ME HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" in order to destroy everything.

[Prime32]

Re: DBZ characters' speed.

In the Goku vs Nappa fight the combatants are so fast that Gohan can't see them, so Piccolo tells him to focus his power; when he does so, the world seems to slow down. That's just one example (Vegeta has another good one before he fights Frieza's final form); throughout the series the stronger you are the slower other peoples' movements seem. During the Frieza saga, a dozen or so 30-minute episodes are said to have taken place within 5 minutes, allowing us to see this in effect. GT even has a fight where Goku's power is drained without his knowledge, causing him to think his opponent has developed super speed.

DBZ fights are shown from multiple perspectives of varying power levels, depending on which would produce the more interesting visual for that shot (this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlqADQwg2yk) is probably from the viewpoint of a normal human). They are always faster than they look, because a fight the audience can't see would be pointless.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Actually, I get his point, he is trying to say that superman is physically powerful enough to punch planets and make them explode. He also has his energy attacks that do similar damage. Do any of the dragonball cast have similar physical prowess? Thats what he is asking, CAN any of the crew, good bad or indifferent, haul back and pimp slap a mountain range into orbit? Can they punch hard enough to make a planet explode? If not, thats his point, they can charge up an attack and blow up the world, superman can throw a punch and do the same. So he has the advantage there because he doesnt need to spend time building his planet busting attack up. He doesent have to spend 30 seconds screaming "KA ME HA ME HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" in order to destroy everything.

In DBZ trying would probably break the mountains. We see Oozaru forms punch mountains of rock and shatter them in a single blow, and that form was deprecated well before the story ended. Though I recall Gohan once hauling some large mass of rock while a giant ape, you see more destruction. This isn't a matter of power but a device of realism. Western comics ignore to a far greater degree how just because you are strong enough to lift something doesn't mean you can without it breaking. Shonen manga largely do not care about feats of strength for their heroes so they never occur.

Doesn't mean the power isn't there if one was put in the others reality.

And no powerful characters do not need to do a massive charge to destroy a planet. Freeza blows up planet Vegita in his lowest form immediately in a fraction of the time a bigger Kamehameha uses. I dare say its not instant, but then even in the stories where Supes is that powerful (as planet smashing is still pretty upper range for him) he's going to make a similar effort flying into space and gaining momentum to hit a planet at high speed to actually smash a planet.

Both franchises actually use some level of artistic license with speed that we the viewer see in art versus what really going on. I know for example that Supes seminal fight with Doomsday noted that you the reader only got really snapshots of the fight and they were really fighting as two blurs from the speed.

One of several reasons why I mark both as off the charts fast and don't even care how absurd an example one can clock them at. DBZ along with most shonen just doesn't bother (wisely) putting as many benchmarks against reality so one can neither confirm nor deny a top speed.

Some do. Mahou Sensei Negima explicitly clocks the hero as capable of literal lightning speed by instantly turning into it to move. Which puts him well into range of giving a good fight to someone like Goku in my opinion.

[Fan]

Re: DBZ characters' speed.

In the Goku vs Nappa fight the combatants are so fast that Gohan can't see them, so Piccolo tells him to focus his power; when he does so, the world seems to slow down. That's just one example (Vegeta has another good one before he fights Frieza's final form); throughout the series the stronger you are the slower other peoples' movements seem. During the Frieza saga, a dozen or so 30-minute episodes are said to have taken place within 5 minutes, allowing us to see this in effect. GT even has a fight where Goku's power is drained without his knowledge, causing him to think his opponent has developed super speed.

DBZ fights are shown from multiple perspectives of varying power levels, depending on which would produce the more interesting visual for that shot (this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlqADQwg2yk) is probably from the viewpoint of a normal human). They are always faster than they look, because a fight the audience can't see would be pointless.

But there are no numbers attached to this. There is nothing said other than "These guys are fast", and I'm not begrudging them Mach 10-25, and even up to Mach 50 with Super Sayain.

However, they can't be faster than light, otherwise techniques like Instant Transmission, and the ship they used to fly to Namek, and to Baby's Planet later in GT wouldn't be necessary. They also don't operate at the speed of light, or even .5 C.

Nor, in the Android Arc would it have taken them as long as they did to find a place to fight, abandoned islands large enough for them to fight on are not that uncommon in the ocean, not common by anymeans, but for someone going "Light Speed", or even a fraction of C. The entire world can be scoured for a suitable land mass in mere moments.

No showings indicate they have the speed, or the speed of thought to keep up with even .3 C fighting.

It gives them the speed to operate at hypersonic combat, yes, this means they can blitz around an entire island in the span of seconds.

However, just because someone seems faster when you are weaker doesn't mean they are going faster. It means you are going slower.

The point I'm making here, is that they aren't fast enough to retaliate. Sure, they're quick, but it's something like fighting The Flash as any other super hero when he's serious about hurting you. You wont react, not because you don't want to, but because you can't.

In the fraction of a second it takes you to turn to face that direction, they are already hitting you. Even moving at mach speeds, you have already been hit.

And then they didn't stop moving, they keep going, and they're coming back. Passing the distance of an entire planet in the time it takes you to raise your arm, and guess what? This time. They're faster. Because now they've had time to accelerate.

Speed is power in every definition of the word, and when you approach the speed of light this power is multiplied exponentially, and when you're just under light speed your mass approaching Infinity (Something DC Hero's are capable of using to their advantage, and Superman has used.), you can hit someone with enough force to shatter worlds.

Superman, does not need this speed to hit you with enough force to shatter a moon. He is just that strong.

Compounded with this, all Supes needs to do is land 1 hit, and while you're reeling from being hit with enough force to shatter a moon into space dust, he's already hit you again, and again, and again, and he's crossed the distance of the planet while your eyes water from an involuntary response, and he's beating you with almost 400 times that strength, and the shockwave off that punch shifts tectonic plates while you go off flying to Saturn from the force assuming your body is whole enough to still be considered you.

That is what a Superman with intent to kill can do. This is not drawing from "Guess Work", but from scans and actual representations that I have already posted.

This is not accounting for his ability to give you brain surgery with his heat vision. Which would essentially make Goku a mental patient.

This is not accounting for his ability to freeze you solid with his frost breath, which he can do WHILE PUNCHING YOU.

This is not accounting for his durability which would allow him to slug it out anyways.

Also, Ozaru are considered MUCH more massively strong than Sayians. And given both opponents are capable of busting a moon / planet casually? I don't think we'd see it even with a Blutz Wave emitter (Which superman would be more than fast / smart enough to destroy), and even then the size of the Ozaru along with it's loss of speed is more than enough to tell me that it's strength would be a non issue.

[Xondoure]

Final fight between buu and Goku/Vegeta with everything in the balance. Anyone recall what the power levels are there?

[deuterio12]

Isn't it an established power of superman that he can rewrite the laws of physics at will? He can somehow hear trough space, despite there not being, you know, anything to transmit the sound waves.:smalltongue:



Well obviously it wouldn't do him a lot of good since going that far would dunk him in the ocean or in space. Which is why I figure he didn't punch through the walls, it would require more then he could control the collateral of and he standing on water.

Then still bravado. He never did dare try it, so there's no proof he can do it. Doubly so because no way the marine walls were stronger than the planet's crust.



And on Bleach I don't recall that much actual injury against spirit entities from anyone without spiritual powers. Ichigo could slash up a Hollow with ease but Chad doesn't kill one with a telephone pole? Course that is so long ago its like bringing up the Sharingan as supposed to be about copying techniques.

Main point is, Chad was still someone with normal strenght when he pulled that off. What do you think happens when someone with planet-busting power is the one doing the punching?




Scale is not nessecarily the same as power in shonen. With a few exceptions the fighters in Negima aren't all that much strong in constitution, Negi has a barrier around him in fights once the series goes to the Magical World so you need certain focues attacks to get through and deal damage at all. Now Negima very much runs on 'type of attack' as being as important as 'power', and never forgets that anyone can be surprised by a clever strategy. Oh Nodoka you saved Mars with minor magic and being underestimated wonderful girl. The actual high level fighting from Ala Alba comes from those that train almost as much as Negi so its hardly school girls with magic items, Setsuna and Kaede get practically zero mileage out of their's in combat. Now Asuna does, but she only stands at her level from her absolute hax ability which the sword is only part of.

However by any reasonable standard once you have people able to keep up at all with Raiten Taisou II they have to be able to give DBZ a good fight at least on speed alone. So Negi, Jack, Eva, Fate, and so forth. I'd love to see Negi eat a high level Kamehameha and turn it right back at 'em.


Meh, highly doubt it. Kamehameha is a ki tecnhique, which even in negiverse is stated to be diferent than magic. And sure they're fast, but they still lack power. The strongest attack on the whole series reaches building-busting at least, and mid-season DBZ characters can shrugg that kind of stuff whitout any effort. When a DBZ character is thrown against a mountain, the mountain crumbles into dust and the DBZ character emerges with just a few scratches if that.

Altough gotta admit, negima does copy pay homage to a lot other popular anime, manga and games all around, like negi geting banana air on his stronger forms. Also alternate-time training place that eva pulled out of her ass mid-season.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Final fight between buu and Goku/Vegeta with everything in the balance. Anyone recall what the power levels are there?

Long since they stopped measuring. Don't believe any number you here for past Freeza since it wasn't in the manga or even the anime. I've never heard one backtraced to anything like an official source either.

However at the end of the story/manga I believe Toriyama ison record as clarifying Gohan as the most powerful individual character. And Kid Buu is actually one of the weaker Buu forms too, just bat**** crazy and Goku and Vegeta were really tried at that point while Buu has no fatigue.

Actually Buu (especially Kid Buu) has certain advantages against a guy like Supes. The Man of Steel just doesn't have an attack to scale up and take out any of Buu's forms, while Buu can certainly reach the wounding threshold, can't be dealt with by say throwing into space, and doesn't get tired.



Then still bravado. He never did dare try it, so there's no proof he can do it. Doubly so because no way the marine walls were stronger than the planet's crust.

Well if it makes sense for the power in question I do extend a little credit. Luffy is almost up to island smashing just on his own and arguably hasn't had a true fight since the timeskip so far. If one accepts that Whitebeard as an old dying man on his last breaths was able to rip apart an island I can see him doing serious damage to the world being within the realm of possibility.

I suspect the power was kept around so Blackbeard could hold the world hostage at some point for the final fight.



Main point is, Chad was still someone with normal strenght when he pulled that off. What do you think happens when someone with planet-busting power is the one doing the punching?


About like what happens when someone fights Juggernaut. He's magically invincible so takes no wounds, but guys of sufficient scale simply knock him over the horizon and he's out of the story. In other words while bashed about I'm not sure the Hollow was really hurt. So it could still be knocked around, it just can't be hurt by physical matter.

Only non-mook characters in Bleach have something Juggernaut doesn't, the ability to stop to control themselves in mid-air so they couldn't just be knocked out of the fight.

Which reminds me, Servants from the Nasuverse could take someone like Supes. A normal Servant you need magic or a spiritual weapon to effect them, as they are a miracle that can only be fought with a miracle of your own. They don't have a physical body to be hurt by a punch no matter its energy. Caster would be the best here ironically enough since Supes is open to things that would never work on a Servant or magus.

DBZ is once again the open question of if ki would qualify as prana/mana for the purposes of being 'magic' enough to damage a Servant.


Meh, highly doubt it. Kamehameha is a ki tecnhique, which even in negiverse is stated to be diferent than magic. And sure they're fast, but they still lack power. The strongest attack on the whole series reaches building-busting at least, and mid-season DBZ characters can shrugg that kind of stuff whitout any effort. When a DBZ character is thrown against a mountain, the mountain crumbles into dust and the DBZ character emerges with just a few scratches if that.

Altough gotta admit, negima does copy pay homage to a lot other popular anime, manga and games all around, like negi geting banana air on his stronger forms. Also alternate-time training place that eva pulled out of her ass mid-season.

Scale is not always equal to power in shonen though. Rakan isn't just building busting, he's through the shields on a magical battle cruiser busting. All high level characters have high level protections around them. Its part of why Asuna is a total hax since she can just ignore Eva high level protections as if they aren't there and making Eva just a ten-year-old girl. Well aside from her more reactive High Daylight Walker regen and so forth, but other characters in the series can't even get that far.

We also know that certain attacks are smaller then the scale of their effect would suggest. Eva can creat a sky scraper sized block of ice, but is also ice so cold it invokes absolute zero.

(Also if one look carefully magic and ki while for once separated, come out to much the same thing. They draw from different sources and methods but equal out the same. Kurt Godel should be a ki user but Asuna's cancel abilities not working on a ranged technique was a significant clue in the story)

That all said yes the don't ever quite reach the scale so like most shonen Negima is just out leagued by the ridiculous scale of DBZ's underlying power. I just choose to think if comes more for restrictions on scaling power. The speed at least is there

[Empedocles]

Nor, in the Android Arc would it have taken them as long as they did to find a place to fight, abandoned islands large enough for them to fight on are not that uncommon in the ocean, not common by anymeans, but for someone going "Light Speed", or even a fraction of C. The entire world can be scoured for a suitable land mass in mere moments.

Well, going at light speed it might be hard to notice what exactly is a suitable place for combat. And anyways, there's no reason to waste energy flying so fast...

[Forum Explorer]

Superman is powerful yes insanely so. What I don't get is why that makes him boring to people. There are plenty of comics about people on par with him that others don't complain about.

Superman is the best known. Or the other people have different restrictions or aren't as focused on. I guess a good example would be Haruhi who is technically more powerful then Superman as she can rewrite reality at a whim. She isn't complained about because the story is about keeping her from doing that, not a bunch of problems that she solves via rewriting.



How are scans not helping?

They are literally the only unbiased evidence of in continuity strength. Wiki's can be edited by trolls, opinions are opinions.


Superman would win. He's a 2d representation of the ultimate 4th (5th?) dimensional hyperstory. His powers and abilities are at the level of power needed to tell an interesting story while still coming out on top or level.

The best Goku can hope for is them realising that they're both heroes and the fight ending without a victor, otherwise it will continue .

Please Please stop talking about Superman. We don't care about Superman. He is a horrible character and we've had enough of him taking up this thread.

I particularly hate what Bitter said because it's plainly not true. None of Superman's stories have ever been interesting for me.



To the actual topic:

It's not a conventional opponent but the House from House of Leaves. Basically a living labyrinth which changes based on the perceptions of those stuck inside. There is no light and no resources to use as food though these can be brought in. Which DBZ characters could handle it?

[TheSummoner]

I'm not famaliar with House of Leaves, but wouldn't a single Sensu Bean handle the food issue and Ki make a good improvised flashlight?

[Soras Teva Gee]

I particularly hate what Bitter said because it's plainly not true. None of Superman's stories have ever been interesting for me.

Well the irony is that where Bitter is wrong is because.... Goku is also a part of that same story. Quite aside from the parallels in their background, Goku would at that level be another avatar for a larger level fundamental concept (said hyper-story) as the hero that embodies hope.

Why the way Superman has been brought up in this thread is terrible is because it only reinforces every negative unfair sterotype about the character that erodes him terribly by preventing people from ever actually pursuing the real Superman.


To the actual topic:

It's not a conventional opponent but the House from House of Leaves. Basically a living labyrinth which changes based on the perceptions of those stuck inside. There is no light and no resources to use as food though these can be brought in. Which DBZ characters could handle it?

I've never even heard of this before so no real idea.

Is there some reason it can't be blasted apart with blasts of sufficient scale? No light isn't a problem, most everyone glows if they want to. Other then that well Goku and several others could teleport (across dimensions even) so should be able to escape anyways. And could rescue any of their fellows who couldn't by sensing ki and teleporting to that location.

Or do they somehow need to make there way through it without just blowing stuff up. That sort of task is general a no go for most of the cast though some of the supporting characters could have the means.

[Forum Explorer]

I'm not famaliar with House of Leaves, but wouldn't a single Sensu Bean handle the food issue and Ki make a good improvised flashlight?

Sensu Beans effects don't last forever right? Help for a while though. Ki would work for light but would likely take more energy then normal.


Well the irony is that where Bitter is wrong is because.... Goku is also a part of that same story. Quite aside from the parallels in their background, Goku would at that level be another avatar for a larger level fundamental concept (said hyper-story) as the hero that embodies hope.

Why the way Superman has been brought up in this thread is terrible is because it only reinforces every negative unfair sterotype about the character that erodes him terribly by preventing people from ever actually pursuing the real Superman.



I've never even heard of this before so no real idea.

Is there some reason it can't be blasted apart with blasts of sufficient scale? No light isn't a problem, most everyone glows if they want to. Other then that well Goku and several others could teleport (across dimensions even) so should be able to escape anyways. And could rescue any of their fellows who couldn't by sensing ki and teleporting to that location.

Or do they somehow need to make there way through it without just blowing stuff up. That sort of task is general a no go for most of the cast though some of the supporting characters could have the means.

Depends really. It was never actually tried in the book though damage caused could not be found later on. (In this case a broken door within the maze) The maze itself seems to be infinite in size and cut off from the rest of the world so I don't think blasting it would do anything. Teleporting would work as I can't think of a reason it wouldn't (since it can cross dimensions and all). Sensing Ki might not work. I have no idea what affect the house would have on Ki (besides it's normal draining effect)

The biggest danger of the house is two-fold. It seems to cause obsessive behaviors and delusions. These become more severe the more you experience it. (A cop who walked down a single hallway of the House had nightmares, the man who discovered it and did the most exploring eventually abandoned his faimly after it killed his brother to try and find the center of it.) The other threat is that the house changes to match how it's being precived. An unknown staircase within the maze can be the size of the mountain the one time and the next be the size a normal staircase due to how you think of it. Similarly two innocent kids who viewed it as a curiosity to play hide and seek in explored it saftly and never got lost. In comparison a world famous hunter entered and became paranoid that their was something hunting him. Eventually he was killed by something with claws after going insane and shooting his companions.

So it's threat level can best be summed up as how do they react when confronted with a physical impossibility that is really creepy?

[Killer Angel]

I'm late for this, but...


Who could oppose Goku and friends (and enemies) on fairly equal grounds?


Arale. :smallsmile:

[TheSummoner]

Sensu Beans effects don't last forever right? Help for a while though. Ki would work for light but would likely take more energy then normal.

Forever, no, but they do keep you full for quite a while. I'll admit I don't remember exactly how long, but it's certainly longer than a single bean should normally be able to fill you up for.

I'm not sure about the rest of the cast, but from your description, I don't think the house would have much effect on someone like Goku. From the examples you gave, it seems to prey on things like paranoia. On fear. On despair. The sort of negative emotions Goku doesn't really let get in the way. The guy watched his best friend get blown up and rather than BSODing, it pissed him off and made him even more determined. We're talking about a guy who pretty much always tries to give his enemies a chance to redeem themselves regardless of the things they've done.

[Gullintanni]

Regarding planetary destruction and DBZ, we have a few examples as early as the Saiyan Saga.

En route to Earth, Vegeta unleashes a ki attack, a version of his Galick Gun fired from one finger, with casual non-chalance, resulting in the destruction of the planet Arlia. There is no charge time associated with this attack. He simply points, shoots, and then planet is gone.

On earth, he threatens a similar feat. He uses Galick Gun again, this time charging it for a significant length of time. No explanation here is really given but my two theories?

1. By this time, Vegeta's been beaten down pretty badly. He may not simply have the energy readily available to fire the Galick Gun so he's gotta work a lot harder.

2. He knows Goku is going to counter the attack as best as he's able, so Vegeta supercharges his attack.

Regardless, at this point, Vegeta can destroy a planet without any forethought. Goku's Kamehameha counterattack eventually overpowers Vegeta's Galick Gun so it's easily at least as powerful. Vegeta and Goku both grow exponentially in power over time, so to suggest that either of them could not destroy a planet at a moment's notice, even if it requires a Ki Attack, is absurd in the extreme.

Once again, BEFORE fighting Goku, Vegeta destroys Arlia with a Ki Attack from two fingers with no charging time. And end of life Goku is many many orders of magnitude more powerful than that incarnation of Vegeta.

The Z Fighters can break planets with ease. No question.

[Empedocles]

I'm late for this, but...



Arale. :smallsmile:

Ah hah! :smallbiggrin: Let's go with this; if you want to scream about Superman please do so elsewhere.

[Fan]

Regarding planetary destruction and DBZ, we have a few examples as early as the Saiyan Saga.

En route to Earth, Vegeta unleashes a ki attack, a version of his Galick Gun fired from one finger, with casual non-chalance, resulting in the destruction of the planet Arlia. There is no charge time associated with this attack. He simply points, shoots, and then planet is gone.

On earth, he threatens a similar feat. He uses Galick Gun again, this time charging it for a significant length of time. No explanation here is really given but my two theories?

1. By this time, Vegeta's been beaten down pretty badly. He may not simply have the energy readily available to fire the Galick Gun so he's gotta work a lot harder.

2. He knows Goku is going to counter the attack as best as he's able, so Vegeta supercharges his attack.

Regardless, at this point, Vegeta can destroy a planet without any forethought. Goku's Kamehameha counterattack eventually overpowers Vegeta's Galick Gun so it's easily at least as powerful. Vegeta and Goku both grow exponentially in power over time, so to suggest that either of them could not destroy a planet at a moment's notice, even if it requires a Ki Attack, is absurd in the extreme.

Once again, BEFORE fighting Goku, Vegeta destroys Arlia with a Ki Attack from two fingers with no charging time. And end of life Goku is many many orders of magnitude more powerful than that incarnation of Vegeta.

The Z Fighters can break planets with ease. No question.

That one handed feat is from a non canon filler arc.

Like I've said three times, the arc was never in the original run of the manga.

I really haven't been screaming about Superman, I've provided rational arguments with actual canon storyline backup, comic scans to back up my statements, and I've presented an argument with a strong core centered around the fact that the Z Fighters don't have any attacks or techniques that CAN planet bust in the frame of time that Superman would be fighting them.

Now, unless someone can post something, with canonical height figures and things done to scale to prove that the Z-Fighters EVER move faster than light while fighting. (Not "Seems", not "X or Y can't see them fight.") They lose by virtue of Speed Blitz. They can't respond in the timeframe it takes Superman to lobtomize them.

It's not about opinions, it's not about perceptions, it's not about personal bias. It's cold, hard, factual happenings, and all I've seen are claims without any backing or scans from the DB Side. It's a concession without them, because I'm not going to just take somebodies word on it. I've posted at least three instances of Superman busting Planets with his physical strength, surviving the impact of 2 planets, and closing rifts in time with his bare hands.

I understand that the Z Fighters are planet busters with their Ki attacks. That's not being debated, but they don't have the speed or PHYSICAL strength to keep up with the likes of Superman.

You guys have backed up none of your claims, and have not provided ANYTHING that proves Goku is anything more than the Hypersonic range I've already given him (Mach 10-25), but hey, let's give him some more. Let's say Kaioken is a literal multiplier, and that the max X50 puts him at Mach 2500. Then let's say Super Sayain is double that at Mach 5000, THEN let's put SS 3 at triple that at Mach 15000. He is STILL NOT FAST ENOUGH.

I've done my own research on both fighters, I've read DB, and the DBZ manga. I was a subscriber to Shounen Jump throughout the entire run of DBZ, and I watched DBZ through it's original run on Toonami. There's nothing he has.

The burden of providing proof that Goku is physically strong enough to bust mountain ranges without Ozaru form, and without ki attacks, is not on me. It's on you guys. I've provided my proof for the side I'm arguing for. I'm not going to make your argument for you.

[Giegue]

While I don't know if it's already been mentioned the digital world of digimon could probally take on DBZ well enough. Zeed Milleniumon could probably solo the DBZ world, and he is not the only uber high-powered digimon out there. The Royal Knights, Demon Lords ect.. are all powerful, and while I am not sure if they are planet busters they could at least put up a good fight, I think.

Another possibility to use against DBZ is the Getter Emperor, if it has not already been mentioned. Getter Emperor could probably, like Zeed, solo the DBZ universe. Giygas from the Mother series could also solo the DBZ universe as well as long as the DBZ world did not figure out his weakness to collective prayer. Sadly the Pigmasks would be blown away by just Goku, let alone the rest of the DBZ cast and the only chance the Mother universe has against them is Giygas, but Giygas is a pretty **** good chance.

[maglag]

Another possibility to use against DBZ is the Getter Emperor, if it has not already been mentioned.

Getter Emperor could possibly face TTGL head on. That's why it hasn't been mentioned.:smallamused:

[Forum Explorer]

Forever, no, but they do keep you full for quite a while. I'll admit I don't remember exactly how long, but it's certainly longer than a single bean should normally be able to fill you up for.

I'm not sure about the rest of the cast, but from your description, I don't think the house would have much effect on someone like Goku. From the examples you gave, it seems to prey on things like paranoia. On fear. On despair. The sort of negative emotions Goku doesn't really let get in the way. The guy watched his best friend get blown up and rather than BSODing, it pissed him off and made him even more determined. We're talking about a guy who pretty much always tries to give his enemies a chance to redeem themselves regardless of the things they've done.

Goku would likely do well from the sounds of it. How about Vegeta or Trunks though?

It doesn't so much prey on paranoia as cause it.

[Empedocles]

That one handed feat is from a non canon filler arc.

Like I've said three times, the arc was never in the original run of the manga.

I really haven't been screaming about Superman, I've provided rational arguments with actual canon storyline backup, comic scans to back up my statements, and I've presented an argument with a strong core centered around the fact that the Z Fighters don't have any attacks or techniques that CAN planet bust in the frame of time that Superman would be fighting them.

Now, unless someone can post something, with canonical height figures and things done to scale to prove that the Z-Fighters EVER move faster than light while fighting. (Not "Seems", not "X or Y can't see them fight.") They lose by virtue of Speed Blitz. They can't respond in the timeframe it takes Superman to lobtomize them.

It's not about opinions, it's not about perceptions, it's not about personal bias. It's cold, hard, factual happenings, and all I've seen are claims without any backing or scans from the DB Side. It's a concession without them, because I'm not going to just take somebodies word on it. I've posted at least three instances of Superman busting Planets with his physical strength, surviving the impact of 2 planets, and closing rifts in time with his bare hands.

I understand that the Z Fighters are planet busters with their Ki attacks. That's not being debated, but they don't have the speed or PHYSICAL strength to keep up with the likes of Superman.

You guys have backed up none of your claims, and have not provided ANYTHING that proves Goku is anything more than the Hypersonic range I've already given him (Mach 10-25), but hey, let's give him some more. Let's say Kaioken is a literal multiplier, and that the max X50 puts him at Mach 2500. Then let's say Super Sayain is double that at Mach 5000, THEN let's put SS 3 at triple that at Mach 15000. He is STILL NOT FAST ENOUGH.

I've done my own research on both fighters, I've read DB, and the DBZ manga. I was a subscriber to Shounen Jump throughout the entire run of DBZ, and I watched DBZ through it's original run on Toonami. There's nothing he has.

The burden of providing proof that Goku is physically strong enough to bust mountain ranges without Ozaru form, and without ki attacks, is not on me. It's on you guys. I've provided my proof for the side I'm arguing for. I'm not going to make your argument for you.

Yes, it was filler, but that doesn't mean that Vegeta wasn't capable of it in the manga. Even after fighting to the point of utter exhaustion, he was still capable of destroying Earth with a galick gun which he only would've had to charge because he knew Goku would counter the attack. Is that conjecture? Yes. Is it common sense? Also yes.

If you've read and seen it all, please stop asking for scans. They're unnecessary.

Why can't he use ozaru form?

Anyways, what all of this comes down to is that superman is a ridiculous character, and I'd appreciate it if he would depart, using his ridiculous speed, this thread. Arguing for superman on a side of a versus is an invitation for insanity. So please stop.

[Fan]

Yes, it was filler, but that doesn't mean that Vegeta wasn't capable of it in the manga. Even after fighting to the point of utter exhaustion, he was still capable of destroying Earth with a galick gun which he only would've had to charge because he knew Goku would counter the attack. Is that conjecture? Yes. Is it common sense? Also yes.

If you've read and seen it all, please stop asking for scans. They're unnecessary.

Why can't he use ozaru form?

Anyways, what all of this comes down to is that superman is a ridiculous character, and I'd appreciate it if he would depart, using his ridiculous speed, this thread. Arguing for superman on a side of a versus is an invitation for insanity. So please stop.

That's a cop out argument, conjecture is by no means a concrete argument. "He should be able to" is an argument that's lost more wars than it's won. It was in a Filler Arc, it's non canon. Meaning we have to throw it out. I'm not allowed to use All Star Superman because he's not canon to DC Main Universe, same with DC 1 Million Superman. Both of whom would solo the entire DB universe.

He can't use Ozaru form because it requires a Full Moon / A Blutz Wave emitter which would be destroyed in the collateral, that combined with the reduced speed of the Ozaru form means that it'd be a debuff for the DBZ side. Superman is no newbie to Lycanthropes. I do believe there have been Justice League events involving Vampires, and The Walking Dead before hand as well.

I've read and seen it all, but that doesn't mean my memory is perfect, or that there can't be arguments made for the side. I'm not strawmaning anyone, I'm not claiming omnipresence. If people believe that Goku can win, then show some scans or videos supporting your claims.

Superman being a ridiculous character (In your opinion.), has absolutely no bearing on whether or not he would beat Goku. This isn't a popularity contest.

Somebody said that Goku would beat superman, I posted scans to back up the fact that he wouldn't. I'm not diverging from topic, and telling me to "Leave the thread", is both a loss concession, AND Incredibly Rude.

[Forum Explorer]

That's a cop out argument, conjecture is by no means a concrete argument. "He should be able to" is an argument that's lost more wars than it's won. It was in a Filler Arc, it's non canon. Meaning we have to throw it out. I'm not allowed to use All Star Superman because he's not canon to DC Main Universe, same with DC 1 Million Superman. Both of whom would solo the entire DB universe.

That doesn't follow. Just because it's a filler arc doesn't mean it's now non-canon. I could make the same argument about a ton of Superman stories by calling the 'side-stories' and saying those don't count. Or say crap like only the original author's stories count, no one else's work is canon. Now if you've seen an official statement from the making of the manga saying that the filler arcs are not canon then I have to agree with you. Otherwise it is as canon as any other part of the DBZ anime.

EDIT: Note that I'm not arguing that Goku would beat Superman, just that your argument against Vegeta blowing up that planet is flawed.

[boj0]

Arceus-Ghost (http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/arceus-ghost) would probably able to stop Goku pretty well as he would be immune to his Ki (http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/Aura_sphere) attacks (http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/Focus_blast) (Ki = Fighting in Pokemon, which Ghost is immune to).
His Instant Transmission and other hyper (http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/extremespeed) speed (http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/quick_attack) moves (http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/mach_punch) would most likely be Normal type, so once again, immune to.

A Will-o-Wisp would cut Goku's physical power in half, or he could Toxic + Recover stall until Goku passed out from poison (which Goku is totally susceptible to).

Even if the fight brought about cataclysmic events, Arecus just waves it's 1000 arms and creates a new Universe.

Technically Dialga could as well, just jumping back in time to Goku's infancy and Roar of Time him into oblivion. Celebi might be able to, but is overall less powerful.
Palkia, while being more damaging with Spatial Rend, would have trouble depending on whether or not it could stop Goku from using Instant Transmission (controlling space and all).

Wobbuffet obviously just has to Focus Sash + Counter/Mirror Coat.

Shuffling between a few Intimidate users could cut his attack down to 25% of normal as well.

[Fan]

That doesn't follow. Just because it's a filler arc doesn't mean it's now non-canon. I could make the same argument about a ton of Superman stories by calling the 'side-stories' and saying those don't count. Or say crap like only the original author's stories count, no one else's work is canon. Now if you've seen an official statement from the making of the manga saying that the filler arcs are not canon then I have to agree with you. Otherwise it is as canon as any other part of the DBZ anime.

EDIT: Note that I'm not arguing that Goku would beat Superman, just that your argument against Vegeta blowing up that planet is flawed.

No, Filler Arc's aren't in the manga.

It's like The Bount Arc in Bleach, or The Curry of Life Arc for Naruto. They aren't canon to main line DB. These things are done to allow time for the Manga's to catch up, or Stuido's to meet demands. They have no actual bearing on the storyline, and are never mentioned again. Ever.

I threw out my examples of 30 planet Superman, and Galaxy Holding Force Vision because of this, you have to be expected to follow your own concessions. Anything else is blatant hypocrisy.

That, and Akira Toriyama also agrees that anything not in the manga (And thus GT, and the movies except for Bardok which is acknowledged as canon by him.), isn't canon to the storyline.

Fortunately, everything except the filler arc's are in the manga.

[boj0]

Oh, and for these purposes Dragonball and Dragonball Z should be considered canon, but not Dragonball GT (so no SS 4) or any movies.

Filler doesn't make it non-canon. It happened, it wasn't a special or a movie, or the live-action abomination. If you have a link to Toriyama saying "ignore these episodes" then I could get behind that. You have not provided said link, so... pics or it didn't happen :smalltongue:

tl;dr we get it Superman can WTFlolpwnroflcurbstomp Goku, hilariously well, even. You're beating a dead horse is all.

Now a really interesting fight would be the Doctor, or Dr. Manhattan, or Dr. Strange, or Dr. Horrible! Goku's fear of needles would override the fact that most of them are not medical doctors!

[Fan]

[QUOTE=boj0;13455631]Filler doesn't make it non-canon. It happened, it wasn't a special or a movie, or the live-action abomination. If you have a link to Toriyama saying "ignore these episodes" then I could get behind that. You have not provided said link, so... pics or it didn't happen :smalltongue:

tl;dr we get it Superman can WTFlolpwnroflcurbstomp Goku, hilariously well, even. You're beating a dead horse is all.

It's common concession that arcs within Anime that aren't followed in the manga are non canon. This is a rule in fact if I remember correctly.

[boj0]

It's common concession that arcs within Anime that aren't followed in the manga are non canon. This is a rule in fact if I remember correctly.

Uhhhh....where does it say that? I'm serious here I want scans/links/video of someone saying this (with the authority to have it mean anything).

And what happens if there isn't a manga? Or the manga is not supposed to be the same? Like in FMA, the manga and anime are both canon, but in alternate universes.

[Empedocles]

Somebody said that Goku would beat superman, I posted scans to back up the fact that he wouldn't. I'm not diverging from topic, and telling me to "Leave the thread", is both a loss concession, AND Incredibly Rude.

I didn't ask you to leave the thread. I asked Superman to, since the argument is getting redundant. You're welcome to continue discussion, I'm just tired of hearing about Superman. Frankly, he probably would win. End of story.

[Fan]

Uhhhh....where does it say that? I'm serious here I want scans/links/video of someone saying this (with the authority to have it mean anything).

And what happens if there isn't a manga? Or the manga is not supposed to be the same? Like in FMA, the manga and anime are both canon, but in alternate universes.

Very well sir.

Here's an excrept, sorry that the only one I could find was French with translation: here. (http://www.animevice.com/dragon-ball/10-1/akira-toriyama-dbz-its-the-anime-and-the-manga/97-326663/)

Canon is defined as work done with the Author, Akira Toriyama admits to having never worked on the anime filler arcs, thus, not being in the hands of the Creator, but in the hands of developers and people admittingly doing such just to pass time makes it as valid as the Marvel "What if's", but with less credibility.

When contradictions come up in a work, you also usually defer to the original source for canon status.

[boj0]

Two posts down: "The creator considers both anime and manga as canon". Lol
The original source considers it all well and good.

So for the argument of DBZ, it goes right back to the OP, Dragonball and Dragonball Z are canon. Maybe not in general, but in this thread Goku getting his driver's license is as canon as the fight against Freiza.

[TheSummoner]

*facepalm and headdesk*

Ok... since this thread has once again been dragged back to Superman, let me just toss this out there.

Superman can move faster than the speed of light and is able to destroy planets.

Therefore, for anyone to be a physical threat to Superman must have a comparable level of speed (or else they would be "Speed blitzed") and strength (or else they wouldn't be able to scratch him/would be splattered in a single punch).

Superman is a protagonist. A hero.

By definition, heroes respond. Villains cause problems, heroes respond to problems.

Therefore, Superman can only respond to the threats posed by his villains.

As stated before, Superman's villains can move at a speed comparable to faster than the speed of light and have a level of power comparable to that required to destroy planets.

Therefore, any villain who wanted to destroy this funny blue rock that is for some reason so attractive to them merely has to fly in at speeds faster than light and destroy it before Superman knows about it (speed or not, he isn't omnipotent).

Therefore, either...

A) Superman's villains are not a physical threat to him and any direct confrontation should be over in less than a second.

B) There is no reason any villain who wants to destroy the earth should have any reason to fail given that they can rush in, destroy it, and be gone all in the time it takes someone to blink.

Therefore, Superman is poorly written.

Now can he please fly away to a planet where people care about boring superheroes? It seems that the only power he lacks is the power of having anyone want to hear about him anymore.

[Fan]

*facepalm and headdesk*

Ok... since this thread has once again been dragged back to Superman, let me just toss this out there.

Superman can move faster than the speed of light and is able to destroy planets.

Therefore, for anyone to be a physical threat to Superman must have a comparable level of speed (or else they would be "Speed blitzed") and strength (or else they wouldn't be able to scratch him/would be splattered in a single punch).

Superman is a protagonist. A hero.

By definition, heroes respond. Villains cause problems, heroes respond to problems.

Therefore, Superman can only respond to the threats posed by his villains.

As stated before, Superman's villains can move at a speed comparable to faster than the speed of light and have a level of power comparable to that required to destroy planets.

Therefore, any villain who wanted to destroy this funny blue rock that is for some reason so attractive to them merely has to fly in at speeds faster than light and destroy it before Superman knows about it (speed or not, he isn't omnipotent).

Therefore, either...

A) Superman's villains are not a physical threat to him and any direct confrontation should be over in less than a second.

B) There is no reason any villain who wants to destroy the earth should have any reason to fail given that they can rush in, destroy it, and be gone all in the time it takes someone to blink.

Therefore, Superman is poorly written.

Now can he please fly away to a planet where people care about boring superheroes? It seems that the only power he lacks is the power of having anyone want to hear about him anymore.

Please stop pretending you and the vocal minority are everyone, and that your opinion on what makes writing good is the only valid one. No you did not say yours in the only valid one, but it is implied through your posts, intentional or not.

There are plenty of people that like Superman, there are plenty of people that like Dragonball Z, and even GT. There are people that like Sonic 2006, and Twilight.

Yes, you may not like them, yes you may find their portrayals boring and poorly written.

However, everyone else kinda matters too, and as much as your side of the argument deserves to be heard, it needs to have more merit than "I find this guy poorly written", which is cool, you're allowed to do that. However, it isn't debate material.

Also Darkseid, and Doomsday? Both CAN destroy planets. They however, aren't motivated by the desires for destruction. They are motivated by personal revenge, and a desire for conquest. These alternative means of victory are what make them interesting characters. This is what gives them a portrayal that the other heroes rogues gallery's don't possess. They have the power to end it all, but they don't want that, because they recognize that destruction is a phyric victory at best.

That is where higher power struggles have their merit, they are different, not lesser.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Please stop pretending you and the vocal minority are everyone, and that your opinion on what makes writing good is the only valid one. No you did not say yours in the only valid one, but it is implied through your posts, intentional or not.

I'm sorry you're the only one here White Knighting for you conglomerate personal fanon Man of Whatever you have because it ain't Supes and want to talk about vocal minority as if its some sort of problem?

How amusing.

[Fan]

I am under the impression there is a "Why do you like Superman" thread here in Media Discussion with many posters. I was saying that Superman has fans as well, and that the people who are aware of his highest showing's opinions are just as valid as his own.

My version of Superman is the one actually in the comics (As backed up by my scans), I'm sorry that we've apparently read different ones.

Again, this has clearly evolved beyond a debate for everyone else, I'm not giving a concession here, but I'm finding the allegations offensive at this point. I've never been rude to anyone in thread, at least not intentionally, but there's a point where this has clearly become personal when insults are being slung around, and I'm sorry that I've apparently let it get this far.

[Jallorn]

Please stop pretending you and the vocal minority are everyone, and that your opinion on what makes writing good is the only valid one. No you did not say yours in the only valid one, but it is implied through your posts, intentional or not.

There are plenty of people that like Superman, there are plenty of people that like Dragonball Z, and even GT. There are people that like Sonic 2006, and Twilight.

Yes, you may not like them, yes you may find their portrayals boring and poorly written.

However, everyone else kinda matters too, and as much as your side of the argument deserves to be heard, it needs to have more merit than "I find this guy poorly written", which is cool, you're allowed to do that. However, it isn't debate material.

Also Darkseid, and Doomsday? Both CAN destroy planets. They however, aren't motivated by the desires for destruction. They are motivated by personal revenge, and a desire for conquest. These alternative means of victory are what make them interesting characters. This is what gives them a portrayal that the other heroes rogues gallery's don't possess. They have the power to end it all, but they don't want that, because they recognize that destruction is a phyric victory at best.

That is where higher power struggles have their merit, they are different, not lesser.

http://images.wikia.com/ponymondawndusk/images/9/9b/Derailed_thread_by_StareOfGreed.jpg

[boj0]

The Hive Fleet, the whole thing. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tyranid#.T-kyusXJq70)

[Devonix]

Uhhhh....where does it say that? I'm serious here I want scans/links/video of someone saying this (with the authority to have it mean anything).

And what happens if there isn't a manga? Or the manga is not supposed to be the same? Like in FMA, the manga and anime are both canon, but in alternate universes.

QFT

either everything is canon but just a seperate canon.
Or nothing is canon.

[Devonix]

Also Fan I get it I really get why you're getting upset and arguing so hard. Superman is a character that you and many others get behind. And when Summoner says that there is no reason to like him you take it as a personal insult.

Not saying that it is one, or even that Summoner means it as one, just aknowledging that you are taking it as such, here's the thing though. Some people will not like the character. I've been trying forever to get my girlfriend to like him and she to this day makes fun of Superman. I can handle that done in person. I think you can handle it being done in a forum post and move on.

[TheSummoner]

Just want to pop in to say I never claimed that there was no reason to like him, only that he was poorly written (which I see as a result of A. Scale taken so far that it becomes laughable and B. Too many people with too many different opinions of what a character should be all getting a say) and boring (just too super to be interesting).

I'm not really a big fan of DBZ either... The show has plenty of problems... exponential power creep, revolving door afterlife, characters who become entirely obsolete to name a few... I'm just really sick of this same conversation that's been going on for 5 pages now and has gone nowhere.

@Bojo - Goku wins the respect of the Tyranids by being able to eat just as much as they do. He convinces them to move on to some other galaxy. =P

Edit: They also eat Krillin first. Just cuz.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I am under the impression there is a "Why do you like Superman" thread here in Media Discussion with many posters. I was saying that Superman has fans as well, and that the people who are aware of his highest showing's opinions are just as valid as his own.

And before long there will have been over 50 threads devoted to cartoon ponies... so what exactly was the point of bringing that up? Like does not mean "think can win against X character in a fight" last time I checked. I like Superman and find what you are trying to do absolutely horrible to the character.

You also apparently missed or selectively ignored the "here" statement as referring to this thread.


My version of Superman is the one actually in the comics (As backed up by my scans), I'm sorry that we've apparently read different ones.

Hardly... a selective collection you can't even be properly represent the truth in has only damaged your claim.

And the Superman actually in comics means New 52 issues. Everything else is fanon


The Hive Fleet, the whole thing. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tyranid#.T-kyusXJq70)

They'd have a hard time getting the whole thing since its so diffuse. But there's not a thing the Tyranids can throw that will take them down or seriously cause problems.

With an space suit anyone who even shows up for a fight in DBZ should be good for a Hive Fleet apiece. Some wouldn't even need that suit.

[Geostationary]

Now for another rpg challenger: Nobles or most Imperial beings from Nobilis. There's not much they couldn't conceivably get away with and they generally operate on a conceptual level, obviating the need to punch planets to death- while they certainly could, it's generally not that productive. They also operate on the time scale of "whatever's appropriate to what's happening". The main point of contention I can think of would be whether Dragonball attacks are considered Miraculous for the purpose of miracles and defenses.

[Fan]

And before long there will have been over 50 threads devoted to cartoon ponies... so what exactly was the point of bringing that up? Like does not mean "think can win against X character in a fight" last time I checked. I like Superman and find what you are trying to do absolutely horrible to the character.

You also apparently missed or selectively ignored the "here" statement as referring to this thread.



Hardly... a selective collection you can't even be properly represent the truth in has only damaged your claim.

And the Superman actually in comics means New 52 issues. Everything else is fanon



They'd have a hard time getting the whole thing since its so diffuse. But there's not a thing the Tyranids can throw that will take them down or seriously cause problems.

With an space suit anyone who even shows up for a fight in DBZ should be good for a Hive Fleet apiece. Some wouldn't even need that suit.

I haven't lied in any of my posts, Superman 1 Million WAS temporarily holding back a galaxy, it wasn't something he could do for long, but he indeed told them to hurry because he knew he couldn't do it for long.

The Allstar Superman scan was in no way facetious. He is a "Super Man".

Also, comic books are divided into ages, and sectioned by reboots. Just because a more recent reboot happened does not make it non canon. They are from different eras, and seperate Supermen. Find me a thing claiming that it's not and we'll be good.

The faster than light scan was also not facetious, because it on panel said he could.

I haven't lied, or been in anyway disingenuous throughout this whole thread, and your attacks are unwarranted, and unprovoked.

I understand it doesn't line up with your version of Superman, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. My proof is better than anything anyone in the whole thread has so much as thought to bring up, and my scans are more unbiased than anyone can ever claim to be.

The sealing of the timerift was mainline continuity canon, the survival of an impact between two planets is main line continuity canon, the ability to break a moon is mainline DC canon, the ability to maintain the speed of light, faster than the speed of light, and just under the speed of light is direct DC canon, as is his ability to destroy a Shadow Moon larger than the Earth's own, and maintain trans light velocities for four months.

You have nothing to disprove these scans, they are from the same "age", and it's the same Superman. There's scans like these for every long running superman in existence. It doesn't matter which you choose except for The Justice League of America Cartoon.

It's not me doing anything to the character Soras, it's how he actually is. All the way back through the Golden ages, surpassing it in the Silver Ages, into the Bronze and then Iron and finally into the Modern Age of Comic books.

I can gather scans from every single era that equal these feats, and in silver age many thousands of times more.

That is not how comic canon works Soras. It's not how it works at all (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQg8JKo_3ZQ). They are considered different Supermen.

I've stated time, and time, and time, and time again in this argument that this has absolutely nothing to do with personal interpretations. I'm literally just gathering the facts. I'm comfortable with Superman in DCAU, he's a great character who manages to be both powerful, and moving. I have no problem with mainline new DCU, except for character designs, just that it hasn't had enough time to establish itself firmly with Superman. It needs time to run a few storylines is all I'm saying, and then we can concretely give a measure of the new superman's power.

I don't know where you thought I started "Doing things to Superman", but I'm doing nothing to him the mainline continuity did not have him repeatedly do in the past 5-15 years.

[Chess435]

Can we please drop the Superman vs. Goku argument? Or at least take it to another thread? There's been enough collateral damage on this one already.

[polity4life]

The last time I read a Superman comic, he and Doomsday were killed by a truck.

I'm giving this to Goku because a truck wouldn't kill him. :smallbiggrin:

I always wondered how the DBZ universe would fare in different conditions. For example, let's say one is in the Evangelion universe just as the orange goo event is taking place. Do any of the DBZ characters have the mental will to immediately actualize as individuals again or can they outright resist this deconstruction with their ki?

Pre-Namek, could any of them survive Vash's angel gun firing? I wonder...

[Fan]

Can we please drop the Superman vs. Goku argument? Or at least take it to another thread? There's been enough collateral damage on this one already.

It's not about Superman V.S. Goku in that argument, is that people have out and out called me a liar. :smallyuk: Conglomerating a "Personal Fanon of Man", and "Doing horrible things to the character".

Also last time I saw GT, Goku was pinned to a building by a vanilla metal pole, and Krillin threw a rock that hurt Goku.

As for Evangelion. It's not a matter of physical strength, or spiritual power. The Anti AT Field erodes the barrier of self, destroying your identity, it's those that can find themselves, and imagine themselves clearly that can come back, and even then the only reason people could come back is because Shinji changed his mind.

If he didn't? Human Instrumentality. Goku has never proven exceptionally resistant to mind ****ing.

[Giegue]

"Goku has never proven exceptionally resistant to mind ****ing."

Which is one of the reasons I feel Tobi/the Masked Man from Naruto would be able to beat Goku despite the MASSIVE power-gap between the DBZ world and the Naruto world. ANY other Naruto character would be curb-stomped by Goku, honestly, but Tobi's phase-shift ability would save him and his genjutsus would finish Goku off. Itachi, Madara and other Uchihas with access to Tsukyomi and similar jutsus could also POTENTIALLY take out Goku, but would could only do it if they could genjutsu Goku fast enough to not take a single hit from him. If goku is allowed to make one move, it's done for them, which means that Goku WILL win those fights since instant transmission means he's hitting them before they get a chance to fire off a genjutsu.)

Tobi however, is a different animal. Unlike the others, he actually stands a chance since his phase-shift/space-time jutsu would allow him to actually survive Goku's hits so unlike the others he'd actually get a chance to genjutsu Goku, and once Goku is genjutsu'ed he's as good as gone.This dose NOT however mean that Goku is weaker then Tobi. On a sheer power scale Goku is FAR stronger then Tobi. The only reason Tobi would win is because he is the WORST possible match for him due to the fact he has phase-shift + mind-effecting abilities, both of which Goku really has no way to counter or defend against.

[Eldariel]

Which is one of the reasons I feel Tobi/the Masked Man from Naruto would be able to beat Goku despite the MASSIVE power-gap between the DBZ world and the Naruto world. ANY other Naruto character would be curb-stomped by Goku, honestly, but Tobi's phase-shift ability would save him and his genjutsus would finish Goku off. Itachi, Madara and other Uchihas with access to Tsukyomi and similar jutsus could also POTENTIALLY take out Goku, but would could only do it if they could genjutsu Goku fast enough to not take a single hit from him. If goku is allowed to make one move, it's done for them, which means that Goku would probably take any of those fights.

Tobi however, is a different animal. Unlike the others, he actually stands a chance since his phase-shift/space-time jutsu would allow him to actually survive Goku's hits so unlike the others he'd actually get a chance to genjutsu Goku, and once Goku is genjutsu'ed he's as good as gone.This dose NOT however mean that Goku is weaker then Tobi. On a sheer power scale Goku is FAR stronger then Tobi. The only reason Tobi would win is because he is the WORST possible match for him due to the fact he has phase-shift + mind-effecting abilities, both of which Goku really has no way to counter or defend against.

It is questionable if Goku couldn't Instant Translocate to parallel planes; no real restrictions have been shown for the ability thus far.

[Giegue]

Yeah, but instant translocation has not actually been shown to be used for planeswalking as far as I know, and thus, if it has not been shown but not ever been said not to exists, assuming that it can't do that is a safer assumption then assuming it can since if it COULD do that chances are it would at least be mentioned somewhere. Also, even if it can, Goku would need to know where the heck Tobi went, and with countless worlds and planes, I doubt Goku would be able to figure out Tobi went to a void full of boxes. Again, though, I'm not saying Goku would be weaker because he would lose. He is LEAGUES above Tobi. It's just that Tobi's moveset happens to be one that makes him one of the worst possible matches for Goku. Everybody has ONE match their bad against, and for Goku somebody like Tobi who can mind-screw him and has a way to avade his attacks that he can't really counter is that bad match.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Goku has never proven exceptionally resistant to mind ****ing.

Question: I'm drawing a blank (a long while since I last checked), but has Goku ever been mind-attacked?

[Soras Teva Gee]

It is questionable if Goku couldn't Instant Translocate to parallel planes; no real restrictions have been shown for the ability thus far.

That's really the sort of open question that has no way to answer.

[Giegue]

Yeah, which is why it's best to leave it out of this debate. Even if we leave it in the discussion, I still stand by my statement that Tobi is one of the worst possible matches Goku can have out of anime characters since he can just avade Goku's attacks and genjiutsu him into submission. Or even better, he genjutsus him into being his mind-slave like Yagura, forgets the moon's eye plan and goes around using mind-slave Goku to start conquering world after world until Team Dai Guren destroys him with their epic manliness and overpowered awesome...why do I now have the urge to write that bad fanfic in the making?

[DiscipleofBob]

What about G Gundam?

Gundams with super saiyan capabilities. They turn blond and everything. :smallbiggrin:

[Giegue]

None of the Gundams from G Gundamn are really in Goku's league. Goku is a planet buster. Goku can tank massive damage, beyond the scope of what anything in G Gundam can do. The only thing even remotely close to Goku's level in G Gundam was the Dark Gundam, and even that would lose easily to Goku. Heck, even colony form Dark Gundam would lose to Goku since his planet busters could bust a colony-sized gundam just as easily. The only mech animes that stands a chance against DBZ are TTGL and Getter Robo, the former for obvious reasons and the latter simply because of the Getter Emperor.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yeah, which is why it's best to leave it out of this debate. Even if we leave it in the discussion, I still stand by my statement that Tobi is one of the worst possible matches Goku can have out of anime characters since he can just avade Goku's attacks and genjiutsu him into submission. Or even better, he genjutsus him into being his mind-slave like Yagura, forgets the moon's eye plan and goes around using mind-slave goku to start conquering world after world until the Getter Emperor, Zeed Milleniumon, Chuck Norris or Superman ***** slap him into oblivion.

If you can exceed Tobi's ability to react you can damage him because he doesn't default to being intangible.

Also the way genjutsu works would suggest that the DBZ fighters could flush it out with the way their ki works. Though actually realizing the trick to that even if it works makes it still a reasonable option.

[Misery Esquire]

Who could oppose Goku and friends (and enemies) on fairly equal grounds?

Tried to think of some.

Came up with the fact that "equal" grounds isn't something I can manage. It's either "Would Win" or "Would Lose."

Belgarion-world Will Users ; Win by saying "explode." And then the DBZ cast explodes.
The Elder Scroll's Daedric Princes ; They have Alter Reality as an At Will, if you bother going anywhere they'd be willing to fight. (Excluding Mehrunes who willing happily charge right into another god in a limited form. Silly Meh Runes.)
Elder Scrolls Heros ; Win or Lose, depending on if you allow CHIM. (Which shouldn't honestly be brought into these conversations.)
3.5 Wizard ; Wins if you allow magic to follow 3.5 rules. Likely loses otherwise.
Warhammer (Fantasy/40K) ; Mortal fighters lose, Immortal fighters win
The Wheel Of Time ; Ahahaha. Rand/Chosen/High Power Channelers devestate en masse. Ordinary people die horribly.
Full Metal Alchemist ; ??? I guess it depends on if the DBZs stand still and the FMA cast is willing to Human Alchemy them? Alchemy seems a bit too slow for this matchup.
Magic The Gathering Planeswalkers ; Nigh infinite deadly magic. Heh.
Lord Of The Rings ; Umm. I guess the Gods win, and people like Gandalf/Sauron/etc are more spiritual than physical and would be hard to permanently kill via DBZ metheods...
Portal ; Do Not Look Into The Operational End Of The Device.
Doctor Who ; Time travel. Daleks. Other strangely powered creatures.
Shannara ; Not so much. Although, I suppose there are a bunch of "death if you aren't magical" things floating around. :smallconfused:
Harry Potter ; Avada Kedavra does autokill you... but it moves slower than a bullet. Unless the wizards get smarter in thier use of magic, no-contest for the DBZ crew.
Battletech ; Not technologically advanced enough to stop Goku from kicking thier robots to the moon.
Star Wars EU : ... ............ Let's not get into that.

[Prime32]

Question: I'm drawing a blank (a long while since I last checked), but has Goku ever been mind-attacked?Vegeta was, and he was able to ignore it completely.

[Fan]

Vegeta was, and he was able to ignore it completely.

Correction, he was able to overcome something that gave him a command completely at odds with his personality, that had that as a stated way of resisting that form of mind control.

The "Pride of Sayian", is something Goku simply doesn't possess.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Warhammer (Fantasy/40K) ; Mortal fighters lose, Immortal fighters win
The Wheel Of Time ; Ahahaha. Rand/Chosen/High Power Channelers devestate en masse. Ordinary people die horribly.

Not really while above average for the average blasting mage only the Choden Kal have the ummph to break the world and you need both active at once with the users linked. Plus that whole human speed and strength thing. Unless one gets really arbitrary like flows of Air having infinite strength they don't do a thing.

Compulsion though could possibly be used by the Forsaken

[boj0]

I think Greater Deamons should be able to handle their own, effectively immortal and powerful enough to corrupt a world given time. Khornate deamons would just go for facebashing, which against Goku or Vegeta may go either way.
Goku would lose hands down to a Changer of Ways, Vegeta...depending on if his pride/rage would let him out bastard one is a maybe. Great Unclean Ones would just sit and tank shots, and end up killing them through various plagues.
A Keeper of Secrets would be...interesting :smallwink:

If it took place in the Warp, then it just turns into how long before Vegeta becomes possessed and Goku and Draigo start going on wacky adventures.

[Aotrs Commander]

I think Greater Deamons should be able to handle their own, effectively immortal and powerful enough to corrupt a world given time. Khornate deamons would just go for facebashing, which against Goku or Vegeta may go either way.
Goku would lose hands down to a Changer of Ways, Vegeta...depending on if his pride/rage would let him out bastard one is a maybe. Great Unclean Ones would just sit and tank shots, and end up killing them through various plagues.
A Keeper of Secrets would be...interesting :smallwink:

If it took place in the Warp, then it just turns into how long before Vegeta becomes possessed and Goku and Draigo start going on wacky adventures.

Considering, unless 40K has completely revised since I last looked at it, that the Greater Daemons can be discorporated by regular 40K weapons (and said 40K weapons that emphatically do not blow mountains up, because terrain rules), I can't see how they would, since they have neither the reaction speed to dodge, nor the physical endurance to take many hits of that sort of magnitude. Hell, KRILLEN could probably take one down from a safe distance with Destructo Disk...

On their home turf, maybe, where they have a terrain advantage (though to be fair "I win because my dimension is crazy" isn't really a measure combatant power.)

(Though I clarify, nothing is ever certain, and there's an always element of luck involved. But considering that Chaos Demons can be beaten by, say, Orks with guns, or Tau with guns, or Imperial Gaurd with guns, even Greater Daemon are just not that powerful.)

Okay, the Z Fighters might not be able to permenantly kill one, but then again, can anything in 40K? I recall even stuff like Grey Knights only being able to dispatch them to the warp.

[Fan]

Considering, unless 40K has completely revised since I last looked at it, that the Greater Daemons can be discorporated by regular 40K weapons (and said 40K weapons that emphatically do not blow mountains up, because terrain rules), I can't see how they would, since they have neither the reaction speed to dodge, nor the physical endurance to take many hits of that sort of magnitude. Hell, KRILLEN could probably take one down from a safe distance with Destructo Disk...

On their home turf, maybe, where they have a terrain advantage (though to be fair "I win because my dimension is crazy" isn't really a measure combatant power.)

(Though I clarify, nothing is ever certain, and there's an always element of luck involved. But considering that Chaos Demons can be beaten by, say, Orks with guns, or Tau with guns, or Imperial Gaurd with guns, even Greater Daemon are just not that powerful.)

Okay, the Z Fighters might not be able to permenantly kill one, but then again, can anything in 40K? I recall even stuff like Grey Knights only being able to dispatch them to the warp.

Gonna have to agree, unless it's in the warp, the only Greater Daemons that could do ANYTHING would be mind**** centered Changers of Ways, and that's only because beings like Baby have proven to be 100% effective against DBZ with almost identical possession methods.

[Misery Esquire]

Not really while above average for the average blasting mage only the Choden Kal have the ummph to break the world and you need both active at once with the users linked. Plus that whole human speed and strength thing. Unless one gets really arbitrary like flows of Air having infinite strength they don't do a thing.

Compulsion though could possibly be used by the Forsaken

"Able to break the world" and "Able to erase one guy with Bal(e?)fire" is entirely different. It's like saying you can't use a screwdriver to put in railroad spikes, when all you need to do is attach a painting to a wall.

--Edit ;
I guess I should clarify the "Immortal" part of the 40K ; I hadn't thought I would be including Daemons in that. I was thinking more along the lines of the CGs, Emprah, Lucien, possibly the Nightbringer, (certain) Primarches would have a good shot at it, and the advanced Daemon Princes that don't grace the tabletop (See ; Slyte, Ghargatuloth, etc). For Fantasy Malekith or Teclis could do it depending on DBZ's magic resistance, along with other Fantasy Mages, and the CGs come in again. Oh. And I guess even minor Nurglitch daemons will work, because Goku proved he isn't immune to a little heart disease. :smallconfused:

[Fan]

"Able to break the world" and "Able to erase one guy with Bal(e?)fire" is entirely different. It's like saying you can't use a screwdriver to put in railroad spikes, when all you need to do is attach a painting to a wall.

--Edit ;
I guess I should clarify the "Immortal" part of the 40K ; I hadn't thought I would be including Daemons in that. I was thinking more along the lines of the CGs, Emprah, Lucien, possibly the Nightbringer, (certain) Primarches would have a good shot at it, and the advanced Daemon Princes that don't grace the tabletop (See ; Slyte, Ghargatuloth, etc). For Fantasy Malekith or Teclis could do it depending on DBZ's magic resistance, along with other Fantasy Mages, and the CGs come in again. Oh. And I guess even minor Nurglitch daemons will work, because Goku proved he isn't immune to a little heart disease. :smallconfused:

The God Emperor of Mankind solo's. He can stop time, has super nova eyebeams, his sword rips the souls outc of his enemies, and he threw the Void Dragon from Earth to Mars, and created a minature Dyson Sphere, AND the reality warping altered physics Noctis Labyrinth. And is a Galactic range telepath that can mind **** lesser men by being in the same room as them.

I'd argue GEoM solo's the universe. As does any of the Chaos Gods due to the lack of mental, and time based, defenses in DBZ.

[maximus25]

I know we're like 5 pages in, but Dragonball Z vs Bleach would work.


Bleach would win, Ichigo is a powerhouse who is way more powerful than anything.

[TheSummoner]

Ok, granted I gave up on Bleach LONG ago, but I don't recall any of those characters being able to destroy friggin' planets.

Though I suppose the canon power of Bleach characters that none of them ever die or are in any danger or get paper cuts might help even things up. :smallamused:

[maximus25]

I'm pretty sure Old man Yammamoto could destroy planets. His Shikai release is, "Rend all things in the universe to ashes!"

Probably not destroying a planet, more like burning it until it's ash.

Kenpachi has the spiritual pressure for it, and Ichigo has to be on par with him at least, if not past him a this point. When Ichigo went against Aizen, him just blocking a sword attack destroyed a mountain range. He didn't use any special powers or anything, just him exerting himself to move his sword into the path of the sword and blocking it destroyed a mountain range.

If he tried he could blow up earth, easily.

[TheSummoner]

Yes, and so could Goku in the first arc of Z most likely (Vegeta tried to. Goku fired a blast that overpowered Vegeta's).

Going by power levels (these are from distant memory, so they're not gonna be exact)... Goku was somewhere in the 10,000-20,000 range when he fought Vegeta. He was about 200,000 when he fought Captain Ginyu. He was over a million when he beat Freeza. They stopped counting after that.

One arc after overpowering a blast that could've destroyed the earth, Goku had increased his power by about a hundred times. Even Krillin and Yamcha could wipe the floor with the entire cast of Bleach if both sides faced off at about an equal point in their respective series.

[Soras Teva Gee]

"Able to break the world" and "Able to erase one guy with Bal(e?)fire" is entirely different. It's like saying you can't use a screwdriver to put in railroad spikes, when all you need to do is attach a painting to a wall.

Oh right, well that would work if it hit I guess, but its not all that hard to dodge. And only Rand at his craziest actually tried to spam it all that much.

Also mostly irrelevant but Rand did deflect it at least once (Stone of Tear from Ishamael) with Callandor which is pegged at nuke scale so even balefire evidently has some limits to what it can shoot through.

Though it could take a few before the DBZ end got the whole not getting hit with it thing.



I guess I should clarify the "Immortal" part of the 40K ; I hadn't thought I would be including Daemons in that. I was thinking more along the lines of the CGs, Emprah, Lucien, possibly the Nightbringer, (certain) Primarches would have a good shot at it, and the advanced Daemon Princes that don't grace the tabletop (See ; Slyte, Ghargatuloth, etc). For Fantasy Malekith or Teclis could do it depending on DBZ's magic resistance, along with other Fantasy Mages, and the CGs come in again. Oh. And I guess even minor Nurglitch daemons will work, because Goku proved he isn't immune to a little heart disease. :smallconfused:

Well broadly speaking less direct magical powers can work, since they are pretty rare in DBZ and tend to be bruteforced through. So there are options to be had. They probably aren't ones you seen on tabletop much either

However as far as direct battle not even remotely.

[tyckspoon]

Well broadly speaking less direct magical powers can work, since they are pretty rare in DBZ and tend to be bruteforced through. So there are options to be had. They probably aren't ones you seen on tabletop much either

However as far as direct battle not even remotely.

This is basically the same opinion I have about DBZ vs Bleach, incidentally. Some of the more exotic powers could give the DBZ characters a lot of trouble- the Color Game shikai, the redirect & amplify swords, Kid Videogame's Fullbring, for things that come to mind pretty quickly- but in a comparison of raw beatdown potential DBZ wins handily; very few of the Bleach characters compare well to DBZ's minor characters, let alone any of the cast who achieved Super Saiyan.

[maximus25]

Yes, and so could Goku in the first arc of Z most likely (Vegeta tried to. Goku fired a blast that overpowered Vegeta's).

Going by power levels (these are from distant memory, so they're not gonna be exact)... Goku was somewhere in the 10,000-20,000 range when he fought Vegeta. He was about 200,000 when he fought Captain Ginyu. He was over a million when he beat Freeza. They stopped counting after that.

One arc after overpowering a blast that could've destroyed the earth, Goku had increased his power by about a hundred times. Even Krillin and Yamcha could wipe the floor with the entire cast of Bleach if both sides faced off at about an equal point in their respective series.

I don't know, would the Espada and Quincy be in on this fight? Would Hollows, though they wouldn't care and just fight either side?

Anyway, Bleach has Ukitake, so anything that the Z folks could fire off would be absorbed and fired back at twice the strength. Not to mention the Stealth Squad, headed by Soi Fon herself, with her poison, "I hit you twice in the same spot you die." shikai. She moves faster then any of the Z fighters easily.

Also, planet destroying ability really doesn't matter if they both have it. It's not gonna be a contest on who can destroy a planet the best, it's a fight between two groups of people. I know blowing up a planet is a way to gauge their respective abilities, but if they both have those sort of abilities the point becomes moot.

[Anteros]

No offense, but you're very clearly biased. I like Bleach, but any of the DBZ main cast could beat their whole universe at once.

[Fan]

I know we're like 5 pages in, but Dragonball Z vs Bleach would work.


Bleach would win, Ichigo is a powerhouse who is way more powerful than anything.

Perhaps you're unawares of just how slow Bleach is, the max they ever clock in at is the Mach 10 range, with Dangai Ichigo.

This is going by the events in Chapter 418, where Ichigo is stated to be without external reiatsu, thus this is purely physical strength gained from having every ounce of reiatsu dedicated to improving physical, and destructive attributes.

I have actual calcs for this, in fact, let's do this.

We'll use 20kwh/ton to pulverise 1 solid ton of rock into powder.

Conversion is based on the density of rock - I'll use 2700 kg/m^3 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_crust - "Consisting mostly of granitic rock, continental crust has a density of about 2.7 g/cm3" )

http://www.unitjuggler.com/convert-e...-kWh-to-J.html
20 kwh = 72000000 J
907 kg / 2700 kg/m^3 = 0.3359 m^3 = 335900 cm^3
72000000 J / 335900 cm^3 = 214.35 J/cc

Okay, so now we have that done, now we can properly calculate the amount of swing speed we'd need to get the job done.

49,711.2 m^3 * 1,000,000 = 49,711,200,000 cc * 214.35 = 10,655,595,720,000 Joules

Now with this in mind, we can also calculate the shockwave:

10,655,595,720,000 / 45.75 = 232,909,196,065.6 N, for the average force exerted by the shockwave.

Next we need to determine the area of the shockwave, in order to determine the pressure.

The area of an oval is pi * radius 1 * radius 2

So 3.14 * 22.875 * 38.775 = 2,785.111 m^2, for the area affected by the shockwave.

With thus done, we can continue.

P = F/A

232,909,196,065.6 / 2,785.111 =83,626,539.86 N/m^2 / 1,000 = 83,626.54 Kpa, the pressure exerted by the shockwave.

Now, the pressure in kilopascals allows us to use the Rayleigh Pitot Tube Forumula to figure out the speed of said shockwave

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/3968/shockwaveequation.jpg

Above is the exact formula, however, I understand not everyone has a university level education for these things, so allow me to break this on down for our less math inclined posters.


Pt = Pressure total, 83,626.54 Kpa
P1 = Atmospheric pressure, I'll be using 101.325 Kpa here.
Y = Specific heat Ratio, here I'll be using 1.4, which is basically something for perfect conditions.

And bam (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=825.33+%3D+[%285.76*x^2%29+%2F+%285.6*x^2+-+.8%29]^3.5+*+[%28-1%2B%287*x^2%29]+), through the miracles of modern science we can determine that the maximum power of Ichigo, someone stronger than Old Man Yama (In Dangai form), someone stronger than Aizen can be clocked in at

Mach 10.3187, or with generous rounding 10.32.

Unable to keep up with even baseline, freiza saga, pre super sayain DBZ.

Let it never be said that I'm biased against Mr.Son Goku.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I don't know, would the Espada and Quincy be in on this fight? Would Hollows, though they wouldn't care and just fight either side?

Anyway, Bleach has Ukitake, so anything that the Z folks could fire off would be absorbed and fired back at twice the strength. Not to mention the Stealth Squad, headed by Soi Fon herself, with her poison, "I hit you twice in the same spot you die." shikai. She moves faster then any of the Z fighters easily.

Upper speeds lack benchmarks in DBZ but as their speed goes up as their power goes up its generally believe they are as ridiculously fast as they are powerful.

There is some evidence around. For example Raditz needed to be held so he wouldn't dodge Piccolo's attack. Which not long after is the same one he used to toast the moon in seconds you could count on your hand. Even considering that dodging has somewhat more to it then that, that's pretty fast and at only the begining of the DBZ scale.


Also, planet destroying ability really doesn't matter if they both have it. It's not gonna be a contest on who can destroy a planet the best, it's a fight between two groups of people. I know blowing up a planet is a way to gauge their respective abilities, but if they both have those sort of abilities the point becomes moot.

Bleach caps at nuke scale unless I've missed something, even Yamamoto's bankai we can't speculate on that far.

[maximus25]

That wasn't because he had actually given up his spiritual pressure.

His spiritual pressure was so enormous, that Aizen could not sense it. It was the same when Aizen used the thing to make him more powerful. They couldn't sense him. Ichigo trained for three solid months to unlock his final Bankai and was so powerful that Aizen couldn't even sense how powerful he was.

And now he has his fullbring powers on top of that, and his final Bankai. He's much more powerful then he was at that point. We haven't even seen him go hollowfied yet either.

That's another thing, once Ichigo dies, or something it was never really explained well, he'll go resurrection, which is leagues more powerful then he is.


I may be biased, but me and a couple other guys were talking about DBZ vs Bleach just the other day and we all agreed it would be Bleach hands down no contest.


But I won't drag this out like the Superman vs Goku thing was.



I think Naruto vs DBZ would be an interesting fight.

[Fan]

He can't use Dangai again (not without losing his powers and another 3 months of prep.), and none of the fullbring calcs showed that it would be anything on the same level as Dangai's level of power. Not even Fullbring + Bankai Ichigo.

I do my best to keep myself as unbiased as possible and rely on numbers only calculations these days. It's nothing I have against anything when I post. It's stuff I've done the math work on based on in comic information to calculate who would win.

Now, considering Dangai was several degrees of power above any of the captains, 3 of them in fact put together with buffs on Yoruichi's side, this also means that level of power would be more than enough to smack aside the Gotei Thirteen as well.

[maximus25]

I'm not saying he does. He has his final complete Bankai, and I assume he has access to the final getsuga. He had all that power because he discovered the final getsuga, not because he actually trained for 3 months.


Heck, when he gets his powers back, on a warmup swing he cuts a building in half just from the air generated in that swing. He has power, more power then Aizen did at his strongest, and Aizen was really powerful.

[Fan]

I'm not saying he does. He has his final complete Bankai, and I assume he has access to the final getsuga. He had all that power because he discovered the final getsuga, not because he actually trained for 3 months.


Heck, when he gets his powers back, on a warmup swing he cuts a building in half just from the air generated in that swing. He has power, more power then Aizen did at his strongest, and Aizen was really powerful.

Perhaps you don't understand the swing speed and power calcs posted above?

[Jayngfet]

snip

Yeah, but that was at a measurement BEFORE Super Sayain 1 level strength. If Ichigo gets all that then he'll be going up against SS3 Goku fused with Vegeta using Kaoken or something on top of that.

[TheSummoner]

I don't know, would the Espada and Quincy be in on this fight? Would Hollows, though they wouldn't care and just fight either side?

Yes. The entire cast with as many secondary characters and monsters of the week thrown in. Krillin or Yamcha even.


Anyway, Bleach has Ukitake, so anything that the Z folks could fire off would be absorbed and fired back at twice the strength.

Which he has to actively absorb and fire back. Super effective if he manages it, and is actually able to hit them... But considering the gap in speed that Fan pointed out, I see that as being unlikely. Even if he could pull it off, it really doesn't stop them from punching his head off.


Not to mention the Stealth Squad, headed by Soi Fon herself, with her poison, "I hit you twice in the same spot you die." shikai. She moves faster then any of the Z fighters easily.

An army of redshirts isn't going to make a bit of difference. Soy Bean actually has to HIT them twice in the same spot for that to matter and IIRC, that same ability has been shrugged off by opponents far weaker than even lower end DBZ characters so it's hardly flawless.


Also, planet destroying ability really doesn't matter if they both have it. It's not gonna be a contest on who can destroy a planet the best, it's a fight between two groups of people. I know blowing up a planet is a way to gauge their respective abilities, but if they both have those sort of abilities the point becomes moot.

You're right in that it doesn't matter if they both have it. I just doubt that anyone from Bleach has it, whereas DBZ characters have had it from the Saiyan Arc and have grown exponentially more powerful through the course of the show.


I may be biased, but me and a couple other guys were talking about DBZ vs Bleach just the other day and we all agreed it would be Bleach hands down no contest.

I'm really curious about the path of conversation that would lead to the entire group coming to that conclusion...

[maximus25]

It was less of a conversation and more of, "Who would win, Bleach or DBZ?"

We all consider it for a moment and at the same time say Bleach.

We didn't need no fancy numbers or arguments, just a general consensus of Bleach.

Note however that we have all seen both animes, so it wasn't like we didn't know about the power in DBZ or anything. We said it because to us it just seemed right.

[Jayngfet]

We didn't need no fancy numbers or arguments, just a general consensus of Bleach.

But without numbers there IS no argument. When numbers and facts get brought in it's a hard baseline to measure the characters against. There is no general consensus because you aren't defending your opinion with enough real material. If you want to have a consensus in your favor it needs to be invited with some sort of rational argument.

[Aotrs Commander]

But without numbers there IS no argument. When numbers and facts get brought in it's a hard baseline to measure the characters against. There is no general consensus because you aren't defending your opinion with enough real material. If you want to have a consensus in your favor it needs to be invited with some sort of rational argument.

Exactly. If you're going to say something based on entirely preference without any rationale behind it, I may as well say Jubilation Lee from the X-Men can beat everyone in the entire universe, based solely on her being my favourite character. It's just as meaningless.

[polity4life]

We have all of this attention on Goku when there are so many other options.

Let's take Buu for example who, in my opinion, is the most powerful thing in the DB/DBZ universe. He survives literally everything and is only defeated due to what appears to be a schizophrenic episode, a human seeking to exploit that episode (for the greater good, of course), and a dragonball wish.

In recap of Buu's demise, Kid Buu expelled Good Buu from itself due to the moral conflict Good Buu presented. Kid Buu beats up Good Buu but the fight allows Vegeta to escape and assist Goku with his uber spirit bomb. Goku throws it but Kid Buu is able to start pushing it back. Dende used a dragonball wish to grant Goku all of his power back so he could further empower the spirit bomb and force it onto Kid Buu, thus destroying him. Essentially, it took the spirit power of all of earth plus twice Goku's power to destroy Kid Buu.

Couldn't Buu feasibly absorb anything? Couldn't it outlast anything in a fight? I won't delve back into the DC debate again but I'm hard pressed to think of something that could stand up to Kid Buu and win the fight without plot on the protagonist's side.

[Soras Teva Gee]

It was less of a conversation and more of, "Who would win, Bleach or DBZ?"

We all consider it for a moment and at the same time say Bleach.

We didn't need no fancy numbers or arguments, just a general consensus of Bleach.

Note however that we have all seen both animes, so it wasn't like we didn't know about the power in DBZ or anything. We said it because to us it just seemed right.

I don't disagree entirely but I think you would struggle to get world breaking out of Bleach as a general consensus.

Ironically Bleach is a shonen that doesn't power up all that much. We don't see or have a time scale enough IIRC to allow for massive training between Soul Society and the final battles with Aizen, yet all Captains managed to be effective forces even those that had lost in the Soul Society arc. Ichigo increases, but its with fairly specific power ups only the final one being like real training and its quickly lost at the stories conclusion.

(Fullbring, Quincy, what's that the manga ended with Aizen's defeat)

[Traab]

A point I want to make about numbers. They are generally pulled out of random orifices when it comes to "official" measurements of strength. Thats why we generally rely on visual effects to determine relative power levels. Because anyone can say, "HES OVER 9000!!" But when you can SEE that x character has, at best, shattered a mountain range, while Y has been seen blowing up an entire planet, you can draw conclusions then. Anime physics dont conform to a scale that will always match another anime physics set.

[Fan]

A point I want to make about numbers. They are generally pulled out of random orifices when it comes to "official" measurements of strength. Thats why we generally rely on visual effects to determine relative power levels. Because anyone can say, "HES OVER 9000!!" But when you can SEE that x character has, at best, shattered a mountain range, while Y has been seen blowing up an entire planet, you can draw conclusions then. Anime physics dont conform to a scale that will always match another anime physics set.

My math however, shown using the highest amount of destruction that dangai Ichigo shows.

Mach 10.32. =p

[TheSummoner]

A point I want to make about numbers. They are generally pulled out of random orifices when it comes to "official" measurements of strength. Thats why we generally rely on visual effects to determine relative power levels. Because anyone can say, "HES OVER 9000!!" But when you can SEE that x character has, at best, shattered a mountain range, while Y has been seen blowing up an entire planet, you can draw conclusions then. Anime physics dont conform to a scale that will always match another anime physics set.

OVER 9000!! means nothing in and of itself. You're right on that point

And yet at OVER 9000!!, Goku overpowered a shot that would've otherwise destroyed the earth. So OVER 9000!! is enough to destroy earth-sized planets. Knowing that is enough to be able to use numbers to compare power.

[Fan]

Well again, I'm very much a person who requires people to actually do that. Powerscaling isn't a very reliable method of gauging someone's power.

I prefer to keep it to things the hero's have actually done, and done more than once outside of crossover events.

[Traab]

OVER 9000!! means nothing in and of itself. You're right on that point

And yet at OVER 9000!!, Goku overpowered a shot that would've otherwise destroyed the earth. So OVER 9000!! is enough to destroy earth-sized planets. Knowing that is enough to be able to use numbers to compare power.

Except the numbers scale so far beyond insanity after that point as to be literally meaningless. They scale so high that, correct me if im wrong, they stopped even bothering to keep track because it was so overinflated that the numbers now would likely imply that a sneeze would cause the instant destruction of the multiverse. The characters by the end were so damn powerful according to the numbers that their footsteps should shatter the time stream if they dont walk very gingerly. And yet, that didnt happen. Even though they are apparently hundreds, or thousands of times more powerful than being able to blow up planets at will, according to the numbers at least, nothing of the sort happened.

[Jayngfet]

Except the numbers scale so far beyond insanity after that point as to be literally meaningless. They scale so high that, correct me if im wrong, they stopped even bothering to keep track because it was so overinflated that the numbers now would likely imply that a sneeze would cause the instant destruction of the multiverse. The characters by the end were so damn powerful according to the numbers that their footsteps should shatter the time stream if they dont walk very gingerly. And yet, that didnt happen. Even though they are apparently hundreds, or thousands of times more powerful than being able to blow up planets at will, according to the numbers at least, nothing of the sort happened.

I'd imagine the reason Goku and co. don't just blow up the world when they fight is that they LIKE the world, thank you very much. Nobody has a real reason to destroy the galaxy in DBZ because destruction for it's own sake was never really their goal. They might be able to at maximum output, but there'd be no real point to it.

[Xondoure]

Except the numbers scale so far beyond insanity after that point as to be literally meaningless. They scale so high that, correct me if im wrong, they stopped even bothering to keep track because it was so overinflated that the numbers now would likely imply that a sneeze would cause the instant destruction of the multiverse. The characters by the end were so damn powerful according to the numbers that their footsteps should shatter the time stream if they dont walk very gingerly. And yet, that didnt happen. Even though they are apparently hundreds, or thousands of times more powerful than being able to blow up planets at will, according to the numbers at least, nothing of the sort happened.

Well once you reach a certain point destruction of a solar system is going to be your maximum output for a while (seeing as you'd have to be several orders of magnitude stronger than that to even reach another star with your attack.) So it would probably go destroy the moon -> earth sized planet -> gas giant -> several planets -> sun -> entire solar system (same as last) -> entire solar system and empty space beyond. Or in other words, it stops being a good measuring tool.

[Traab]

Well once you reach a certain point destruction of a solar system is going to be your maximum output for a while (seeing as you'd have to be several orders of magnitude stronger than that to even reach another star with your attack.) So it would probably go destroy the moon -> earth sized planet -> gas giant -> several planets -> sun -> entire solar system (same as last) -> entire solar system and empty space beyond. Or in other words, it stops being a good measuring tool.

But thats my point, the numbers are stupid, and so are the power levels, because its all tell, no show. Going by official records you would think the sayens are able to destroy entire galaxies with their raw power levels, and yet they manage to avoid creating more than football field sized craters when unleashing that strength. About the only time it even gets brought up is when someone happens to aim downwards instead of straight across or slightly upwards, because suddenly everyone starts screaming about how they will blow up the world. But when they do fire off that world destroying shot, because it doesnt directly impact the ground, (though considering its streaking off into the distance, it will eventually hit a mountain or something) all we see is a beam of light, and the bad guy screaming before he is defeated.

They assure us that yes, this new bad guy is even more powerful than the last guy you needed a world destroying attack to defeat, therefore the good guy has to unleash an even more powerful attack, then the next guy, then the next, ad infinitum. By the end of the series, with the never ending power surge, forget about creep, its power surge, that they could end all of creation with a 5 second power up. How they can use that level of power and not end all life on earth with every battle is glossed over.

[Jayngfet]

How they can use that level of power and not end all life on earth with every battle is glossed over.

I believe that that's a large part of being a martial artist: You CAN kill with your bare hands, but you are instructed and trained not to take it too far. That's why you don't see too many deaths in a real life fighting tournament even though landing a killing blow would be relatively easy. From the first day you start til the time you become a master self control is always a big part of a professional fighter.

Training isn't just "ascend to the next power level", it's "ascend to the next power level and not accidentally murder your family after".

[Devonix]

I'd imagine the reason Goku and co. don't just blow up the world when they fight is that they LIKE the world, thank you very much. Nobody has a real reason to destroy the galaxy in DBZ because destruction for it's own sake was never really their goal. They might be able to at maximum output, but there'd be no real point to it.

As is the case with most anime and comic book characters who are capable of blowing up worlds. As the Kingpin once said.

" There's no profit in the end of the world. "

[Traab]

I believe that that's a large part of being a martial artist: You CAN kill with your bare hands, but you are instructed and trained not to take it too far. That's why you don't see too many deaths in a real life fighting tournament even though landing a killing blow would be relatively easy. From the first day you start til the time you become a master self control is always a big part of a professional fighter.

Training isn't just "ascend to the next power level", it's "ascend to the next power level and not accidentally murder your family after".

Yeah, I understand that their control is likely immense as well, but, and I may be wrong here, those universe destroying special attacks, dont always connect right? What happens when they are missed? These are attacks capable of destroying everything everywhere at the same time. Are we supposed to believe that somehow these missed attacks never hit anything and end reality as we know it?

[Fan]

Yeah, I understand that their control is likely immense as well, but, and I may be wrong here, those universe destroying special attacks, dont always connect right? What happens when they are missed? These are attacks capable of destroying everything everywhere at the same time. Are we supposed to believe that somehow these missed attacks never hit anything and end reality as we know it?

That's why they AREN'T. It's a matter of refining their power I think. Turning an Erupting Volcano into a finely honed sword, allowing their overall strength to increase, but not exceeding the initial strength, just allowing it to be used in different ways, and with less waste.

[Jayngfet]

Yeah, I understand that their control is likely immense as well, but, and I may be wrong here, those universe destroying special attacks, dont always connect right? What happens when they are missed? These are attacks capable of destroying everything everywhere at the same time. Are we supposed to believe that somehow these missed attacks never hit anything and end reality as we know it?

Well I believe the amount of control extends to more than just the target. I mean even a Namek Era Kamehameha would have lit everything within a square mile on fire if it wasn't so incredibly focused. I mean it's like the difference between a knife and a fist, even if you put the same amount of speed and power into it. The fist is gonna hurt, but if you can stab with the knife on a smaller area it's gonna do more damage because all the energy from the swing is focused onto that one specific point.

This is probably also why Krillin's one of the weakest characters the show takes seriously, but his one disc attack can slice through just about anything. I mean, the Kamehameha is great and all, but it's clearly visible how much energy Goku is throwing out in a continuous stream as opposed to a similar amount of energy focused into a single consistent mass.

[Soras Teva Gee]

DBZ attacks are rather like certain spells in D&D, their scale and the damage they deal are not related.

A Maximized Empowered Fireball is in every reasonable sense more powerful then a Fireball for max CL. One does 90 fire damage and the other will do an average of 30 fire damage. However their range and area remain identical.

Only in DBZ its not simply a game mechanic but the only way the show remains anything resembling sane. As you would otherwise have such things as Nappa surviving a nuke scale blast he caused without a scratch but dying from a much smaller attack. However this is all their own in-universe magic, its mostly free to act as it pleases on such matters.

[TheSummoner]

Yeah, I understand that their control is likely immense as well, but, and I may be wrong here, those universe destroying special attacks, dont always connect right? What happens when they are missed? These are attacks capable of destroying everything everywhere at the same time. Are we supposed to believe that somehow these missed attacks never hit anything and end reality as we know it?

This is what happens (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YkEDGD_sDs#t=241). :smalltongue:


This is probably also why Krillin's one of the weakest characters the show takes seriously, but his one disc attack can slice through just about anything. I mean, the Kamehameha is great and all, but it's clearly visible how much energy Goku is throwing out in a continuous stream as opposed to a similar amount of energy focused into a single consistent mass.

No one takes Krillin seriously =P

[Jayngfet]

No one takes Krillin seriously =P

Compared to a lot of others they kind of do. I mean Krillin gets jokes but Yamcha and Tien don't even get that. Hell, Yajirobe stopped being relevant long before Namek. There's a LONG list of fighters in DBZ who kind of got left behind and Krillin can at least claim to have relevance longer than 99% of them.

[Aotrs Commander]

Krillen's awesome.

Even and especially in DBZ Abridged where he's the butt of all the jokes.

[Fragenstein]

Ooh, talking about Krillin now?

Hey. Anyone who can bag Android 18 is number one in my books! Nice.

Strongest human on the planet? Inventor of the Destructo Disk ('Shame that it rarely managed to actually hit anything)? Plus I remember him being portrayed as being able to sense energy better than most anyone in the long running cast. So he had that going for him.

[DiscipleofBob]

Here we go:

Krillin w/ Destructo Disk

VS

Seifer from Final Fantasy 8...
The man who cut Odin in half.

[TheSummoner]

Seifer easily.

Krillin never hits with Destructo Disk. :smallbiggrin: