I need help killing a practiced caster

[Ipuntmidgets]

I am a level 10 crusader who is close to the god kord and i have come in contact with a level 20 sorcerer lich who enjoys black dragons. he has a level 20 warblade companion who is optimized as primary DPR and a level 20 vampire paladin of slaughter companion who is optimized as a tank. Now the GM is a practiced caster and has the original creators of all these characters who were optimized to handle almost any combat situation. The lich is primary mastermind, final option aka usage of spells such as wish or miracle or Apocalypse from the Sky from BVD. My companions are a level 11 artificer, a level 13 dusk blade, a berserker who is on the path to become the god of war(as the prestige class), a level 15 ranger who is optimized as a bow ranger with a dex above 26. My question is how do we kill the lich, warblade, and paladin of slaughter. We are currently not fighting them because the main plot involves destruction of the whole world on a clock of one year and the lich wishes to control the entire world after he has helped us save it first. i understand that the lich is going to go through some leveling and is aware that i will be attempting to kill him after we are done with the main quest. but with the current party i was wondering if anyone had any hard recommendations on how to take care of the lich and his party. as i understand it our party is going to be around level 20 when the campaign comes to completion. most of the party is heavily optimized for only combat meaning the ranger has high dexterity and is conisdered a seasoned fighter being able to fight our berserker without stopping for hours in game time. the berserker has a strength score of 40 when not raging (in story permanent buffs and belts and traits and stuff). the artificer isnt going to specialize in wielding wands as far as i understand it. and my character is currently being made to eat any and all damage that comes in combat including iron guard glare, crushing weight of the mountain and shield block.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Artificer should have max UMD ranks and make an item that grants a +30 Competence bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm), which is the max pre-epic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm) bonus he can get.

He should make a Staff of Moment of Prescience (high number of charges per cast for a lower cost) and a Staff of Bone Talisman (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a).

His UMD check will be 23 ranks + 30 item + Cha, for a minimum check result of 54 if he rolls a 1. He can use the Emulate Class Feature function to fake a caster level of 34 with that, which he uses to activate the Staff of Moment of Prescience to add +25 to his next UMD check. He then activates the Staff of Bone Talisman (Turning) at a caster level of at least 59. With that he can Turn Undead as a level 59 Cleric, which means any undead with 29 or fewer HD + Turn Resistance will be automatically destroyed by that turn attempt. That's assuming he rolls a 1 on his UMD check, which means there's a 95% chance that he can destroy undead of up to 30 HD instead. I'm pretty sure that's going to wipe out any undead opponents with class levels that you'll encounter.

As for the Warblade opponent, it'll probably be your entire party against just him so you should be able to make short work of him, assuming he's not also undead. Of course after that you'll have to find the lich's phylactery, which should be an ordeal all by itself. Hopefully he can Omnificer-up a Knowledge or Gather Information check to learn its location.

[whibla]

...activate the Staff of Moment of Prescience to add +25 to his next UMD check...

I see this sort of use suggested many times, in various places, and maybe I'm reading the spell wrong (commas are so confusing), but I do not think it works like that:

"This spell grants you an insight bonus equal to your caster level (maximum +25) on any single attack roll, opposed ability or skill check, or saving throw."

UMD is not an opposed skill check, and therefore is not eligible to be boosted by the spell.

Can't fault the rest of your logic. Just hope he doesn't turn himself, using those self-same tricks, to make himself immune to turn checks lower than the one he made though.

[bobthe6th]

make 30, get 30 scrolls on unseen servant, and run.

ten servants a foe walk up to their target and open the letter.

lets see the lich take 3420 force damage and walk away.


letter bomb:
20 castings of explosive runes:free
20 pices of parchment: 4gp
1 onvelope: .2 gp
1/20 lb of sealing wax: .05gp
1 charge ring of gliph of warding: 1100gp
sum:1104.25 gp
creation:
1:cast explosive runes 20 times, once on each piece of parchment
2: place all parchment into an onvelope, close onvelope
3:while holding 9 axomatic +1 arrows place sealing wax, seal with gliph of warding wand signet ring, set as a spell ward with dispel magic as an area dispel as the spell, and the gliph set to go off when the letter is opened.
result: the gliph and spell inside the gliph are at caster level 1, so the area dispel is 1d20+1 vs DC21 to dispel the explosive runes, so it fails on anything but a 20. When the runes fail to dispel, they go off, dealing 6d6 a piece to everything within 10ft. So if one nat twenty out of 20 chances, 19 go off dealing 114d6 damage(average 342 force damage) no save to ajacent creatures and allowing a save for half damage 10ft out. BOOM.

[Jack of Trades]

I am afraid you can use an unseen servant that way. An unseen servant cannot make any attacks and whether it's opening a explosive rune letter or dropping vials of acid; that's an attack!

Also you forgot how to deal with the lich's phylactery and vampire's casket.
Without taking them out, they will just come back and come back cranky!

As far as taking out the BBEB, you are weak in magic and even weaker in turning undead. A lich and vampire are undead, use that against them!
Hire a 20th level cleric who emphases on destroying undead. :smallsmile:
Or pick up equipment aimed at destroying undead.

Magic that will find any object will certainly help find the vampire's casket, but probably not the lich's phylactery.

[Lord_Gareth]

Ah, the the servant isn't making an attack - it's opening a letter. The lich reading the letters is what triggers the runes.

[Jarian]

I see this sort of use suggested many times, in various places, and maybe I'm reading the spell wrong (commas are so confusing), but I do not think it works like that:

UMD is not an opposed skill check, and therefore is not eligible to be boosted by the spell.


"This spell grants you an insight bonus equal to your caster level (maximum +25) on any single attack roll, opposed ability [check] or skill check, or saving throw."

English being what it is, the above is a perfectly valid reading of the spell description. Both are technically "right". Emphasis, of course, mine.

[Hirax]

The staff trick falls flat anyway, that's not how UMD works. It doesn't actually give you the caster level of your check. I cringe every time I see this nonsense interpretation put forth.

[Spuddles]

The staff trick falls flat anyway, that's not how UMD works. It doesn't actually give you the caster level of your check. I cringe every time I see this nonsense interpretation put forth.

"Emulate a Class Feature

Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above). "

Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The staff trick falls flat anyway, that's not how UMD works. It doesn't actually give you the caster level of your check. I cringe every time I see this nonsense interpretation put forth.


Emulate a Class Feature
Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

I attempt to Emulate Class Feature: Druid caster level. My check result is 55. My emulated Druid caster level is 35. "It lets you activate items as if you had that class feature."

[Hirax]

But it doesn't let you use the feature, it says so explicitly. It's this sort of results oriented rules reading that makes people not take optimization boards seriously.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

But it doesn't let you use the feature, it says so explicitly. It's this sort of results oriented rules reading that makes people not take optimization boards seriously.

"It lets you activate items as if you had that class feature." You get to activate a staff as though you had that caster level.

[Hirax]

The key word there is activate. A high CL is not required for activation. The spell effect itself uses your own CL. Do you also believe that you can UMD an item that grants additional wild shape uses to gain wild shape on a character that doesn't have wild shape? :smallconfused:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Staff Descriptions
Staffs use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff.

"It lets you activate items as if you had that class feature." When activating a staff, you do so as if you had that class feature. Your example is completely unrelated, an item that provides a benefit to your own class feature is not ever activated itself, its benefit is passive and occurs automatically when you activate your class feature.

UMD has very specific uses. There's 'activate wand' and 'activate scroll' but there's no 'activate staff' function. Thus you have to 'emulate class feature' to pretend you're a member of a spellcasting class with that spell on your class spell list. Since you're emulating the entire spellcasting class feature of that class to activate the item, you get the caster level benefit as a collateral effect of that check.

[Hirax]

you get the caster level benefit as a collateral effect of that check.

No, you don't. That is an invented extension that is entirely wishful thinking.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No, you don't. That is an invented extension that is entirely wishful thinking.

So, let's say you have a character with UMD and a staff containing a Druid spell. He rolls a UMD check to activate that staff, his check result is 40. The only function of UMD that can activate that staff is Emulate Class Feature, and he has to emulate the entire Druid spellcasting class feature for it to work. Therefore, his check result of 40 will emulate a Druid 20 spellcasting class feature. The staff automatically checks for his caster level, which shows up as 20, so that's the caster level of the staff for that activation. Just to be clear, the Druid class only has a single class feature under the "Spells" header. It doesn't have a spell list as a separate class feature, and everything involved in spellcasting, including their spell list and caster level, falls under that single "Spells" class feature.

Wishful thinking will lead to invented reasons why this doesn't work, and none of them are valid.

[Hirax]

The staff automatically checks for his caster level

No, it doesn't. It checks whether the spell is on their list. This is an entirely different thing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

No, it doesn't. It checks whether the spell is on their list. This is an entirely different thing.

Staffs make a specific exception, per my quote in an earlier post. You activate a staff as though you had that class feature ("Spells" at level X). The part about using your own caster level is specifically a part of activating it, so it does work.

[Siosilvar]

When activating the staff, the character can use their caster level instead of the staff's caster level. [Part of the staff description]
Using UMD, they temporarily gain a caster level to activate the staff (and only to activate that particular staff at that moment in time). [UMD to emulate the Spellcasting class feature]
Substituting your caster level for a staff's doesn't count as using the ability.
Therefore, firing off a spell from a staff via UMD uses the emulated UMD check result.

I suspect the point of contention is number 3 there. I'm of the opinion that it doesn't count, since it's part of activating the item and you can activate items via UMD just fine without "using" the ability.

EDIT: Also, this is getting fairly off-topic. Another thread, anyone?

[Hirax]

Staffs make a specific exception, per my quote in an earlier post. You activate a staff as though you had that class feature ("Spells" at level X). The part about using your own caster level is specifically a part of activating it, so it does work.

That's not what it says at all.


When activating the staff, the character can use their caster level instead of the staff's caster level. [Part of the staff description]
Using UMD, they temporarily gain a caster level to activate the staff (and only to activate that particular staff at that moment in time). [UMD to emulate the Spellcasting class feature]
Substituting your caster level for a staff's doesn't count as using the ability.
Therefore, firing off a spell from a staff via UMD uses the emulated UMD check result.

I suspect the point of contention is number 3 there. I'm of the opinion that it doesn't count, since it's part of activating the item and you can activate items via UMD just fine without "using" the ability.

EDIT: Also, this is getting fairly off-topic. Another thread, anyone?

You're right, I don't agree with #3, but I also do not agree with #2. You are not gaining a caster level, you're gaining a spellcasting list. The claims that by gaining a spellcasting list you gain a caster level, and that you can use this obtained caster level instead of "your caster level" are unsupported. Look at the UMD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm) text for wands, where it says a staff works the same way. No mention of caster level anywhere. You do not need a caster level to activate spell trigger items, a level 3 paladin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellTrigger) could use a staff of cure light wounds without needing to make a UMD check, despite not having a caster level.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The spell list is not a separate class feature that can be emulated.

Using "Emulate Class Feature" to activate a staff requires you to emulate the entire "Spells" class feature of a given class, which includes both its spell list and its caster level. You could use the Activate Wand function of UMD, but you don't have to.

When activating a staff, as part of that activation, you get to use your caster level in place of the staff's caster level if yours is higher. "...the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of a staff..." is exactly what it says.

[Hirax]

No, because then you're actually using an emulated feature. Emulated features from UMD are keys, not fuel, this is the same reason you can't UMD a runestaff or domain staff to get around expending a spell slot. You're stuck with what the text from wands gives you.

[Endarire]

Tippy has this to say:

How to kill a greater deity with Alter Reality and without using Pun-Pun or Ice Assassin Divine Rank shenanigans.

Do not even think of attacking him until after everything else in the following plan has been done. Attacking a god is going to trigger his portfolio sense. That gives him advance warning, and you will not succeed if the god has advance warning.

Becoming utterly immortal and unkillable:

Step 1: Have the Epic feat Ignore Material Components (or get ready to spend -lots- on material components).
Step 2: Create an Ice Assassin of a Mind Flayer Psion (telepath) with a level greater than your own and physical ability scores in the 70s or so.
Step 3: Order the Ice Assassin to True Mind Switch with you.
Step 4: Kill your Ice Assassin.
Step 5: Gain 10 levels in the Illithid Savant prestige class.
Step 8: Create an Ice Assassin of an Aleax of yourself.
Step 9: Order it to shapechange into a form with a brain.
Step 10: Consume it's brain and gain the Ex ability Singular Enemy.
Step 11: Create an Ice Assassin of an Aleax Mind Flayer Psion (Telepath) of a level higher than your own with true mind switch and whatever physical abilities you want.
Step 12: Order it to True Mind Switch with you.

Congratulations, you now currently have two copies of the Singular Enemy ability each with a different singular enemy (one of which is yourself). This means that nothing in the multiverse can harm you in any way.

---
Now it's time to get you a whole host of abilities and qualities. This basically means using the Ice Assassin trick to produce brains of yourself to consume to multiply your abilities and brains of other creatures and characters so that you get every ability that is even remotely useful in the entire game. Once you have done that it's time to make use of Epic Casting.

What you do is create an Origin of the Species spell (using Ice Assassins to mitigate the DC down) with every epic ability as an Ex that you can conceive of (multiple separate creatures so that the DC doesn't get too insane) that are utterly loyal to you and then consume their brains to gain those abilities.

Now, you should consume the brain of a Vecna Blooded creature every day so that you acquire an updated the Cloak of Mysteries (Su) ability; the ability only hides all knowledge of you up to the time you gain the ability so you need to keep getting a new copy to keep your plans and actions mostly hidden. It still doesn't keep you safe from Portfolio sense but it does make you safer.

Now, one of the Origin of the Species creations of yours should have an Ex ability based on an epic spell with a free action casting time that uses the Contact and Transport seeds (along with hideously boosted saving throw requirements) to locate anyone or anything that you are familiar with and then transport them to any location that you are familiar with (make sure that it is capable of extraplanar transport and does not use the Astral plane).

Another spell choice should be a Ward spell that excludes all spells of up to say level 10 with a radius of a hundred miles or so.

The last epic spell choice you need to include is an area of effect dispel based on the Dispel seed with a radius around you of 100 miles when activated. Make sure that the CL check is boosted to an absurd level and that this is also an Ex ability for your target creature.

Then travel to within a hundred miles of the Spire in the Outlands. Spend the next 20 weeks there. Use your Ex Ward ability to shut down magic in the area. Use your Ex Dispel ability to suppress magic items until you turn it off. Use your Ex teleport ability to rip Nerull to your location, this strips him of all his divine abilities, blocks the casting of all other spells/powers, and shuts down all of his magic items including artifacts.

Now you beat him to death, or use another Epic Ex ability to kill him. This shouldn't be difficult considering that you have had 20 weeks to prepare the battlefield, have every ability in the game, and can't be harmed.

Congratulations, you killed an overdeity. Granted, the above plan will allow you to kill anything short of the Lady of Pain and it utterly abuses the Illithid Savant but it is RAW legal, doesn't require DM adjudication, and works.

[Zerter]

Abusing a bunch of poorly written post-epic stuff that involves eating brains does not sound what a good level 10 character has in mind. Neither does a supercharged turning or explosive runes come close to solving the problem since you need to go for the phylactary.

Best way to do that is to have a specialist go for a supercharged rebuke instead and have the lich simply bring it to you (or take you there, whatever, figure something out!). As for the other companions, if you want a simple cheesy solution you can use dust of sneezing and choking, otherwise just rebuke the vampire and lich and have them take everyone out.

[Jack of Trades]

Best way to do that is to have a specialist go for a supercharged rebuke instead and have the lich simply bring it to you (or take you there, whatever, figure something out!).

What if keeps it in a permanent protection from good circle or has a circle in the travel path? As soon as he entered the circle wouldn't he then be free of the compulsion?

[Medic!]

While it IS an [Evil] Necromancy cleric spell, if you could land it, Unliving Weapon from Book of Vile Darkness would be a great way to take out the undead.

The trick is, of course:
1) being ok with casting an evil cleric spell
2) soaking up any possible spell turning levels (not so bad on undead, bombard 'em with healing!)
3) beating applicable SR
4) beating their will save with a 3rd lvl spell

There's ways to do it, of course...but turning the lich or vampire into a walking bomb might get a book thrown at you, idk.

I'm not well-known for great ideas

[ThiagoMartell]

People still believe you can use UMD to get higher caster level on staffs?! That's like the one thing CustServ has ruled consistently over the years (no, you can't).

[PinkysBrain]

At the moment you're just uppity servants which amuse him, you're so far below him ... he could make a party of simulacrums which would be more powerful than you.

Realistically since you apparently already managed to show your cards this early in the game you would need to make him belief you're most incompetent, so he doesn't just whipe you out the moment you get close to becoming a credible threat. Metagamically the DM won't do that, so we can ignore that.

On the other hand, metagamically he probably wants a "fair" fight and not a batman like preparation and simply running down the list of one hit kill cheeses and their counters.

Talk to the DM and ask him the level of cheese he wants to use in the fight and if he will metagame to make the fight winnable. If he does then you can play it like normal, but if it's a contest of system mastery you obviously should be allowed to prepare outside of DM view and keep your character sheets secret from him. If it becomes a contest of system mastery then if one side has to show their cards, that side will lose.

You should probably beg the DM to drop you a highly unlikely quest which so happens to give you the location of the Lich's phylactery (ghost of his long dead lover wants revenge or something, blah blah). Story wise this is the most straightforward way to setup a nice fight in which you can actually beat the Lich (without some story help a well hidden phylactery is pretty much impossible to find).

Get the Berserker some natural wings (Wish, Nar Fiendbond, whatever) and a spellstoring ring with AMF in it ... they are godly in an AMF if they have good mobility. Try to get him to dip a ToB class so he can get Iron Heart Surge as well, makes FB a lot more playable.

Have the Artificer make some cubes of force for him and the archer, an oft overlooked godly defence item (use homunculi to activate them, no need to waste actions on it). Don't use them before the final fight, assume you're being spied on.