S.O.S. Save Our Swordsage!

[paurpg]

I am playing a fourth level swordsage, with the unarmed strike variant, improved grapple and shadow blade feats and I'm starting to be left behind by the arcane casters, clerics, and two handed weapon power attackers I am playing with.
I wanted to know what would be the best way to up my damage output at this point, the problem is I realize that unarmed attacks can be boosted mainly by gaining size, and some of the magic items that are needed for this aren't allowed by my GM (ring of mighty wallop). I thought about shifting into a power attack build but realized that power attack works best with two-handed weapons (unarmed is a light weapon). I also considered some of the two weapon fighting builds around, but I also read that unarmed fighting doesn't work with two-weapon fighting...What I would really like to have an optimized swordsage build centered on maneuvers but who didn''t rely too much on invisibilty (thwarted too easily by see invisibilty), but I am not sure that is possible . ANy ideas as to what would be the best way at this point to up the damage ouput per round? Thanks.

[candycorn]

Power attack works well with unarmed strike (especially if you use unarmed strikes as the off hand weapon for a two weapon fighting technique... and the main hand is a 2 hander, like a greatsword), as it's the only light weapon that gets the damage bonus.

Alternatives would be:

Gain natural attacks. They add on to the end.
Find other damage bonuses. Knowledge devotion, craven, etc.

[PinkysBrain]

Monks have some language which arguably prevents TWF ... but you only have the monk damage progression on unarmed strikes, so you can TWF just fine ... with gauntlets even (again, the arguments against those are based on aspects of the monk which are irrelevant to you).

At this level the best damage is in tiger strike ...

Lets assume you have 14 wisdom, 16 dex, + 1 gauntlets (you're not a monk, so the usual arguments against this are irrelevant, they do damage as unarmed attacks but allow you to get cheap enhancement bonuses), TWF (I'd ditch grapple to be honest) with insightfull strike (tiger claw).

With sudden leap and wolf fang strike you will be able to get off two attacks for 1d8+1+3+2 and 1d8+1+1+2 damage. If both connect you're looking at ~19 damage, significantly more than the blaster spell of choice at this level (scorching ray, which does ~14 on a hit).

[lord_khaine]

You are forgetting his Str bonus in that calculation, shadow blade adds to it, it doesnt replace it.

Edit.

Also, the dex bonus isnt halved on offhand attacks, thats only the str bonus.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

Battle Jump -> Shadow teleportation maneuvers -> Teleport on your enemy's head
Get pounce (or at least Snap Kick) and use this to deal more attacks/round
Works with Sudden Leap, too


Or, get 1 level in Shiba Protector + "intuitive strike" feat and go full wis

[phlidwsn]

Ways to increase damage:
Superior unarmed strike feat: Since your using the monk progression for uas, that should give you a +4 to your effective level on the damage chart.
Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic p101): this item gives you Improved Natural Attack (UAS) and gives you a bonus of 1 con damage to target on crit.

[PinkysBrain]

He has to be a bit selective in feats ... sure superior unarmed strike and eventually Snap Kick are great ... but first he needs Shadow Blade, TWF, Adaptive Style and Weapon Finesse.

I misremembered Shadow Blade, thought you could only use dex instead of strength.

So, lets assume human 4th level sword sage with 14 wis, 14 str, 16 dex, +1 gauntlets, TWF, Weapon Finesse, Shadow Blade, insightful strike (tiger strike). With both sudden leap and wolf fang strike maneuvers you can do 1d8+1+2+3+2 and 1d8+1+2+3+1 for ~24 damage if both attacks hit and from beyond melee range which is pretty decent.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

He has to be a bit selective in feats ...
How about multiclassing? Fighter 2 (hit & run variant) is a wonderful choice for a dex based swordsage

[Hiro Protagonest]

and the main hand is a 2 hander, like a greatsword)

What? Where?

[Answerer]

A Monk (and by extension, an Unarmed Swordsage) can make unarmed strikes with any part of his body. He therefore does not need to use a hand for this, and can use both hands for one weapon.

It's similar to TWF'ing with Spiked Armor as one of the weapons.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

A Monk (and by extension, an Unarmed Swordsage) can make unarmed strikes with any part of his body. He therefore does not need to use a hand for this, and can use both hands for one weapon.

It's similar to TWF'ing with Spiked Armor as one of the weapons.
Exactly.

The best weapon for a swordsage to do this is Spiked Chain, because it allows both Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade.

[Keld Denar]

but I also read that unarmed fighting doesn't work with two-weapon fighting...

This is actually a point of some debate with very little consensus. Some people believe that because you only have a single UAS, you can't "wield" it more than once. Others interpret the language as a collective noun, a singular word describing a group of UASs. The monk language can either be interpreted as absolute (making monks the only class who can't TWF with UASs), or as redundant, in the fact that NO character has an offhand attack normally, and only by using the TWFing combat option does the character gain an offhand attack which supersedes the general rules. There are quite a few interpretations, its pretty much up to your DM to parse through it. There are a number of threads on this forum that go into details about it, look em up if you want to read the finer points of the argument.

Long story short, depending on how you interpret it, it is either ok or not to TWF with UASs. I personally think its ok, because that interpretation is the most internally consistent interpretation across all of the rules.

[D@rK-SePHiRoTH-]

IIRC the FAQ stated that you are "always" allowed to make off-hand attacks with your unarmed strikes.

[Rejakor]

I played an einhander swordsage/swashbuckler/rogue in a group with a shugenja and a 2h barb, once. He was easily the most damage-causing character. Although the Barb wasn't using Leap Attack.

If you're using Shadow Blade, your stance should be Assassin's Stance. An easy flank gets you +6ish damage on each attack.


Also all the arguments on not being able to TWF with unarmed strike/unarmed strike are based on stupidity and fail. Ignore them completely. Assuming 14 Str and 16 Dex, then you're attacking twice for 1d8+2+3+2d6, which isn't so shabby given that you should be using Shadow Jaunt and the desert wind speed boost and hide to be the movement scout guy of the party. If you pop Burning Blade that round (which you should do first round, having snuck into a position to wipe out a weak but offensively dangerous enemy), then that's 1d8+2+3+3d6+4 twice, which is 22 damage per hit, so 44 damage, which should take down a caster type enemy.

At level 8 (6 BAB) this improves to 5 attacks (greater TWF, Snap Kick), which turns you into a true blender. Until then, don't be afraid to combo manuevers, Flashing Sun and Burning Blade, for example, gives you 1d6+4 more damage on all attacks AND an extra attack this round, so it's a really great 'nova' attack. Picking up Adaptive Style (if you're human, and level 4, i'd have taken Two Weapon Fighting, Adaptive Style, and Shadow Blade) lets you set up nova attacks in any round where you have a breather (or if you want, you can use that shadow hand maneuver that makes you invisible to fade into the shadows for a round and prepare another super surprise attack).

Strikes can be interesting, just remember, you want to be full attacking, as full attacking is usually > strikes. Strikes are for when you have to move and then attack.

If you dip into hit and run fighter, you can get dex to damage AGAIN when enemies are flatfooted, which the Cloak of Shadows (invisible for a round) maneuver lets you do, as does the surprise round of combat (swordsages ALWAYS go first!), plus it gets you a bonus feat and +1 BAB (getting to that golden 6 BAB is almost worth not getting maneuvers for a few levels).

[eggs]

Grapples don't combo well with most damage maneuvers unless you have some way to stick them together. The most common way is Improved Grab, but it has a painful size restriction. A more reliable way is Sandstorm's Scorpion's Grasp feat, which you should qualify for already.

[Azernak0]

I am playing a fourth level swordsage, with the unarmed strike variant, improved grapple and shadow blade feats and I'm starting to be left behind by the arcane casters, clerics, and two handed weapon power attackers I am playing with.


Casters are GOING to beat you. It just happens. The 2-handed Power Attackers shouldn't be a big problem. Convince the casters to throw you a Greater Mighty Wallop since you can't get it on a magic item. Lasts hours per level and increases your weapon size damage by 4 per level. It's a level 3 spell so it will be a little while.

I ran a UA Swordsage similar to this:
Level 6:
1: Adaptive Style
1B: Weapon Focus
3: Light Armor Proficiency (Ehh, it's an extra 4 Armor Class)
6: Improved Natural Attack

Buy your caster friend a Lesser Rod of Extend and have them give you Extended Greater Mighty Wallop once per day. Your punch damage goes to 3d6 per shot which is not terrible for level 6. Your main thing is maneuvers though. Throw people, trip people, hurt people. Once you get Superior Unarmed Attack, Monk's Belt, and two bumps from Greater Mighty Wallop, your damage really starts to catch up.