D'ohpellgangers

[willpell]

Given that a Doppelganger does not gain Low-Light Vision for shapeshifting into an Elf, how can he hope to pass as an elf for any length of time? Wouldn't the other elves notice eventually that the guy they've known for 300 years suddenly can't read the sign in front of the mayor's office because it's 70 feet away from a light source?

By the way, I should know this by now but I'm blanking: with a single natural attack, like the doppelganger's slam, is a monster allowed to do this as an off-hand attack while also attacking with a weapon?

[Jack Zander]

Forget elves. How about a race with Darkvision?

[willpell]

Forget elves. How about a race with Darkvision?

Doppelgangers are Monstrous Humanoids, and all Monstrous Humanoids have Darkvision, so no problem there (except for Drow and other creatures with darkvision ranger further than 60 feet). The Doppelganger is fine in a small room without doors or windows, but he's screwed outside in a forest by starlight, which is where I'd imagine the average elf usually is (not an adventurer elf or even an NPC elf, but a random elf in a peaceful setting where nobody's playing a game because nothing ever happens there - including, for this very reason, doppelganger infiltration).

[Chained Birds]

Forget elves. How about a race with Darkvision?

"That Durjek Rockshiner fella' has been acting strange lately. He keeps bumping into walls and tripping over loose rocks every time we go down into the mines. I'm really starting to worry about him."

Edit: or;

"Lwarwyn! How did you not notice me asking for help over there! I was only 75ft away!"

[IncoherentEssay]

Quite simple, he Detects Thoughts on the guy who asked the question and/or any bystanders. The one who asked both knows the answer and is expecting you to say it, so it is among the surface thoughts. Outside of being specifically tested for being a Doppelganger, why would you even need to read something outside the 60ft darkvision but within low-light range?

There's also a feat* for extended range on darkvision for infiltrating Drow/Deep Dwarf societies (or passing the low-light test without thought detection). Given that noncombatant npcs generally have junk feats, having only 'average' Darkvision isn't going to raise any eyebrows.

*Edit: Deep Vision from Races of Stone. Psionic feat, so requires Wild/Hidden Talent or equilavent and adds 30ft range, so not quite enough for infiltrating drow societies.

[JeminiZero]

Wouldn't the other elves notice eventually that the guy they've known for 300 years suddenly can't read the sign in front of the mayor's office because it's 70 feet away from a light source?

They probably will, but the Doppelganger can probably bluff his way through and blame myopia or something.

[Deadlights]

I am going to assume that Elves have individuals with physical disabilities such as nearsightedness and partial blindness. What would be your first reaction upon seeing someone having difficulty reading a sign from a distance: "Oh man that sucks, let me give you a hand there" or "OMG doppelganger, kill it!"?

Doppelgangers are smart, they should know how to pick who to blend in with. Even if they replace someone who doesn't have nearsightedness, all he needs to do is explain away that his vision has been deteriorating lately.

[willpell]

Quite simple, he Detects Thoughts on the guy who asked the question and/or any bystanders.

Good answer. Not 100%, between that and thousand-year memories the dopps probably don't infiltrate elf society much, but they could get away with this method sometimes - perhaps it's their version of an extreme sport.


Outside of being specifically tested for being a Doppelganger, why would you even need to read something outside the 60ft darkvision but within low-light range?

Darkvision is black and white. What are you going to do when the wizard points to the jars of colored powder that are 75 feet away from the open window and asks for the ruby dust, which you can't tell from the sapphire?


There's also a feat for extended range on darkvision for infiltrating Drow/Deep Dwarf societies (or passing the low-light test without thought detection).

Ahah. Makes sense that they'd have developed an answer for this issue, and if you've never taken that feat then you just pick on humans because we're easy.


They probably will, but the Doppelganger can probably bluff his way through and blame myopia or something.


I am going to assume that Elves have individuals with physical disabilities such as nearsightedness and partial blindness.

Let's remember that a great deal of D&D takes place in small towns where everyone knows everyone else. Doppelgangers won't always be able to take the form of a stranger, and are probably safe enough doing so, but what happens when they imitate a specific individual but can't match his perceptual abilities?


Doppelgangers are smart, they should know how to pick who to blend in with. Even if they replace someone who doesn't have nearsightedness, all he needs to do is explain away that his vision has been deteriorating lately.

That would get him sent to the chirurgeon, who might ask for a blood sample. Of course the doppelganger has an easy solution, but then he has to learn chirurgery. (This also tends to explain why Doppelgangers don't have an easy time keeping a Good alignment....)

By the way, speaking of Detect Thoughts, it occurs to me to wonder about the limitations of that ability. I would think at-will telepathy is even more useful for an espionage-type character than shapeshifting; does anyone else think that the existence of telepathic monsters make the Telepathy discipline of psionics seem a little less sexy? Obviously most of the powers are still useful for doing mind control and such, but it just seems as though the general panache of "I'm a human Telepath" gets watered down a little when there are other creatures running around with a Supernatural Ability to read thoughts whenever the hell they wanna.

[ThiagoMartell]

Of course there are corner cases in which doppelgangers get caught. Otherwise, they would be ruling the world.
And a Telepath does a lot more than simply read mind, FYI.

[IncoherentEssay]

Darkvision is black and white. What are you going to do when the wizard points to the jars of colored powder that are 75 feet away from the open window and asks for the ruby dust, which you can't tell from the sapphire?
Blues are a bit darker than reds in grayscale, so the doppelganger could learn to tell the difference. Or maybe he lucked out and got through the Will save, so given that the wizard is asking for an item, he's most likely thinking of it's location at the moment. Or pull a social dodge and just pick one nonchalantly without looking and toss it to him, in a 'couldn't care less' manner. Got the wrong one? Whoops, sorry, here's the right one. Or 'accidentally' knock one of them off the shelf. If it was the right one, it'll show in how he reacts.

The doppelganger doesn't need to know anything, he just needs to know who knows it and how to make them reveal it. And for that they have a lifetime of practice.

Though i have to wonder who would keep reagents unlabeled in a dark cabinet/equilavent, there's likely to be a dozen powders of any given colour among them ("It's the white one." "Gee, thanks. That narrows it down to 274 or so." :smalltongue:).

Edit: found an even simpler solution. Elfsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/elfsight.htm) is 1st level for psionic warriors and can therefore be picked up with Hidden Talent, giving 1h of low-light vision and misc benefits /powerpoint (2 from Hidden Talent, more from Psionic Talent if really necessary). The visual display can be supressed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#display) by a DC 16 concentration check. There's your elfintrator.

[VGLordR2]

Of course there are corner cases in which doppelgangers get caught. Otherwise, they would be ruling the world.

That's what they want us to think.

[Keld Denar]

By the way, I should know this by now but I'm blanking: with a single natural attack, like the doppelganger's slam, is a monster allowed to do this as an off-hand attack while also attacking with a weapon?

As a humanoid shaped creature with a slam, that slam is made with at least one free hand. Thus, the doppelganger has to have at least one free hand available to make the slam attack. He could attack with a sword in one hand (gaining full iterative attacks), and then attack with the slam as a secondary natural attack at -5 from his full attack bonus and dealing 1/2 +str bonus to damage. If he wielded a two handed weapon, however, or was TWFing with a weapon in each hand, he would be unable to make slam attacks. This is internally consistent with other MM creatures who have slam attacks and wield manufactured weapons.

[Answerer]

Pretty sure that rule only applies to Large creatures with arms or arm-like appendages (see Natural Weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons), parenthetical in the second-to-last sentence of the first paragraph); Medium or smaller creatures make Slams using their entire body. As a result, I don't think using a two-handed weapon or two-weapon fighting would prevent a doppelganger from using its Slam attack.

[willpell]

The doppelganger doesn't need to know anything, he just needs to know who knows it and how to make them reveal it. And for that they have a lifetime of practice.

This is true. Speaking of which, are doppelganger lifespans established anywhere? I thought it would make them more interesting if we assumed they could live for hundreds of years, and tended to forget details they no longer need to know as fast as they learn new stuff, giving them Bored Immortal Syndrome for the course of a dwarf-sized lifespan or so (it didn't seem right for them to be as quite ageless as elves, but not as mayflyish as humans either).


Though i have to wonder who would keep reagents unlabeled in a dark cabinet/equilavent, there's likely to be a dozen powders of any given colour among them ("It's the white one." "Gee, thanks. That narrows it down to 274 or so." :smalltongue:).

To anyone who thinks wizards are logical, I submit the duckbunny.


Edit: found an even simpler solution. Elfsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/elfsight.htm) is 1st level for psionic warriors and can therefore be picked up with Hidden Talent, giving 1h of low-light vision and misc benefits /powerpoint (2 from Hidden Talent, more from Psionic Talent if really necessary).

Keep in mind that the Hidden Talent feat doesn't exist unless the GM says it does; it's designed for a specific style of campaign and won't generally be allowed otherwise.


stuff

Thanks! This matches what I thought I remembered, so I guess I know what I wasn't sure I did, and I appreciate you confirming it.

[Keld Denar]

I haven't seen any evidence the prove that. There is no explicit rules either way. All you can do is infer things from stat blocks (which are notoriously fraught with errors). I looked at a LOT of stat blocks when I was writing my mini-guide on natural attacks, and as far as I can tell, a slam on a humanoid creature is simply a bludgeoning flavored claw attack. The only difference between a medium sized humanoid creature and a large sized humanoid creature is that in most cases, a large sized humanoid gets 2 slams, while a smaller sized one only gets 1. That's the ONLY difference, which is IMO, a balance thing. Larger humanoid things tend to be higher CRs, and having a higher CR creature with only a single attack is rather lackluster, so they gave larger (and generally higher CR) humanoid creatures a second slam to give them a bit more oomph.

Again, nothing here is backed up by RAW, since there is no RAW. Just my interpretations from when I was studying the matter a year or so ago when me and Solo wrote my miniguide.

[IncoherentEssay]

Hidden Talent is mostly just taking the least demanding route, could just dip Psywarrior or PsyRogue (which is fairly fitting for Doppels anyways).

Races of Destiny gave them the exact same aging table as humans. Useful if one goes with a Phasm->Doppelganger->Human 'evolution' to explain why humans can create half-whatevers more readily than others, but does cramp the 'gangers style a bit on the near-immortal method actor front. Nothing that an undead template couldn't solve and they can hide it far easier than most.
Gravetouched Ghoul from Libris Mortis is a particularly good one for creating a secret society of self-styled grand actors with peculiar dining habits.

[Slipperychicken]

Though i have to wonder who would keep reagents unlabeled in a dark cabinet/equilavent


To screw with adventurers and thieves, of course. :smallbiggrin:

[Grollub]

Darkvision is black and white. What are you going to do when the wizard points to the jars of colored powder that are 75 feet away from the open window and asks for the ruby dust, which you can't tell from the sapphire?




Ya, cause this is gonna happen all the time, every day. There are so many ways for the doppleganger to respond to this, it's not even funny.

[Piggy Knowles]

What are you going to do when the wizard points to the jars of colored powder that are 75 feet away from the open window and asks for the ruby dust, which you can't tell from the sapphire?.

Walk a little closer, probably...

[Augmental]

Keep in mind that the Hidden Talent feat doesn't exist unless the GM says it does; it's designed for a specific style of campaign and won't generally be allowed otherwise.

Where does it say that Hidden Talent is only for certain types of campaigns?

[Bharg]

Uhm, correct me if I am wrong, but I think neither low-light vision nor dark vision are used for reading anyways... If I remember correctly even drow mages had to use candles in the underdark in order to study their scriptures.

[Amidus Drexel]

Darkvision is black and white. What are you going to do when the wizard points to the jars of colored powder that are 75 feet away from the open window and asks for the ruby dust, which you can't tell from the sapphire?


What I want to know is why the "outdoor-loving" elves have anything they would use frequently that far away from a window. Or, why is the doppelganger talking to one of the people that is best-suited to finding out who he is? If I were a doppelganger, I would stay as far away from spellcasters as I could.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Uhm, correct me if I am wrong, but I think neither low-light vision nor dark vision are used for reading anyways... If I remember correctly even drow mages had to use candles in the underdark in order to study their scriptures.

You been reading Salvatore? Because that uses older rules as a basis, back in the days when Darkvision meant infravision.

[kabreras]

Black and white means all shades of grey also.
Considering collor is just a light spectrum absorbsion. Every collor have his special shade of grey in dark vision so i dont see a problem here.
The dopple is used to darkvision and prety much know the shades of grey since his birth, like you learned the colors.

[Deadlights]

I am starting to picture a doppelganger in a city who eventually gets spotted by someone with Glasses of True Seeing. The doppelganger manages to bluff everyone into thinking the guy is crazy, leading to him trying to convince some to put the glasses on.

Then this happens: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-MVMbm6c0k&feature=related

[willpell]

Where does it say that Hidden Talent is only for certain types of campaigns?

It says so right here:


Note: This is an expanded version of the Wild Talent feat, intended for use in high-psionics campaigns.

[Augmental]

It says so right here:

"Intended" doesn't mean the same thing as "required". Sure, the DM is probably a lot likelier to let it be used in high-psionics campaigns, but it isn't automatically barred from being used in any other type of campaign.

[nyarlathotep]

This is sort of a known quality of elves so a doppelganger who wanted to infiltrate an elven community would likely either know about it or figure out fairly quickly that they can see better than it can in low light conditions. Thus a better question would be: how do doppelgangers get around the problem of not having low light vision.

I'd assume different doppelgangers would have different ways of doing so. Thus some might train their minds to use psionics and get elfsight (through hidden talent or levels in a psionic class), but that doesn't necessarily mean that all of them do. Hell if one were to take the time to homebrew out a full doppelganger society they might have low-level magic items that can merge into their bodies and give them special abilities while shapeshifting (goggles for low-light vision, boots for tremorsense, etc).

[Flickerdart]

If there is a light source everywhere, then the elven vision is no longer an advantage. Solution: set the forest on fire.

Alternatively, if there is no light source anywhere, then the elven vision is no longer an advantage. Solution: get the elven community you want to infiltrate exiled underground. That's right - the Drow were just a Doppelganger plot.

[ThiagoMartell]

If there is a light source everywhere, then the elven vision is no longer an advantage. Solution: set the forest on fire.

Alternatively, if there is no light source anywhere, then the elven vision is no longer an advantage. Solution: get the elven community you want to infiltrate exiled underground. That's right - the Drow were just a Doppelganger plot.

Those nasty buggers! That's why Corellon is OOC in the drow legend, he was a doppelganger all along!

[hushblade]

Hidden Talent is mostly just taking the least demanding route, could just dip Psywarrior or PsyRogue (which is fairly fitting for Doppels anyways).

Races of Destiny gave them the exact same aging table as humans. Useful if one goes with a Phasm->Doppelganger->Human 'evolution' to explain why humans can create half-whatevers more readily than others, but does cramp the 'gangers style a bit on the near-immortal method actor front. Nothing that an undead template couldn't solve and they can hide it far easier than most.
Gravetouched Ghoul from Libris Mortis is a particularly good one for creating a secret society of self-styled grand actors with peculiar dining habits.

Not to derail, but is this a legit theory from a book anywhere?

[Templarkommando]

You could explain it away as a medical condition. In real-world humans, it's not at all uncommon to develop vision problems as one enters later stages of life. Maybe something similar can happen in elves.

[TuggyNE]

You could explain it away as a medical condition. In real-world humans, it's not at all uncommon to develop vision problems as one enters later stages of life. Maybe something similar can happen in elves.

With suitable adjustments for age bonuses/penalties. "Yeah, I got some cataracts when I was born; hopefully they'll clear up in another 30 years or so."