Please sell me a Defender/Controller

[Fallbot]

For various reasons including a player leaving and a plot induced roster reshuffle, the party in our on-going campaign is going to be temporarily dropped down to three characters, and the GM has suggested I bring in a new PC for the next scenario (from the sound of it, a straight dungeon crawl) to compensate. The problem is that I have no idea what to play, and so I come to you guys seeking inspiration.

We’re level 12 and the party as it stands comprises a Valorous Bard/Half-Elf Emissary, a TWF Ranger/Kensei, and a Chaos Sorcerer/Wild Mage (I’ll find and post the builds on request).

Teamwork is…not a strong point for us, so the character needs to be relatively self-sufficient and not rely on the rest of the party cooperating or always making tactically sound decisions.

So what’s a fun, self-reliant defender and/or controller that comes into its own during early paragon and has a short learning curve? All non-Essential classes are available, Essential ones may be after a bit of whining at the GM. Build recommendations would also be very much appreciated but, as you may have inferred from our tactical ability, nothing incredibly high op.

[Tegu8788]

I can't do much for build, I've never built past five, but if you want a fun and effective Defender/Controller, I'd suggest Genasi Swordmage|Wizard. Bump Int all, Eladrin could also work. Focus on close bursts and blasts from the wizard. Essentially, you will be what the bladesinger wanted to be.

Also, I offer this chart (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AtNpg2ePSBVcdEw3T0hZV1ZzQ0ktcVRmZ0d4eFJQV0 E) of viable hybrids I've crowd sourced.

[Fallbot]

I can't do much for build, I've never built past five, but if you want a fun and effective Defender/Controller, I'd suggest Genasi Swordmage|Wizard. Bump Int all, Eladrin could also work. Focus on close bursts and blasts from the wizard. Essentially, you will be what the bladesinger wanted to be.

Also, I offer this chart (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?key=0AtNpg2ePSBVcdEw3T0hZV1ZzQ0ktcVRmZ0d4eFJQV0 E) of viable hybrids I've crowd sourced.

Thank you for the suggestion, but one of the party members who is on temporary hiatus is a genasi Swordmage|Wizard with a focus on blasts (I should have mentioned that in the OP, sorry! The other is an eladrin artificer who is being temporarily replaced by the bard) so building another would be stepping on a few toes. I'll certainly look at the chart though and see if anything grabs me.

[Tegu8788]

If you can find some fun ranged weapon fighter powers, a seeker|fighter could be interesting. I know Druids can be built quite defender like, and while not a true Defender|Controller, if you slap a Chaladin with a Bard or better yet, a Warlock, will give you Paladin defenses with the good controller encounter powers. The first character link in my signature is a Pallock I'm enjoying that is able to be an off defender, off controller, off leader, and off striker.

[DragonBaneDM]

Early Paragon from what it sounds like, yeah?

The Spear Fighter's exceptional here. Polearm Master Paragon Path out of Martial Power. Bump up Str/Wis, throw in a healthy dash of Dex, grab yourself the Polearm Gamble feat, get Footwork Lure and Polearm Momentum to knock stuff prone at will, Threatening Reach from the Paragon Path itself, aaand maybe Marked Scourge to work all out.

Other than that just take killer Fighter feats!

[Tegu8788]

There is also the infamous warforged warden|warlock/warlord using a warhammer. Focus heavily on Con for just about everything. Fluff wise, a witch animated and cursed a tree, it came to life, and now protects its mistress' swamp. Until something goes wrong, and goes freelance. Again using the warlock controller like encounter powers. The binder may suck, but the powers aren't all so bad.

[tcrudisi]

You've got two strikers, one of which does AoE damage. So - I'd go for a defender and ignore the controller.

For a fun one that really comes into its own in paragon: Half-Elf Battlemind|Fighter/Daring Blade which focuses completely on Cha and Con. Daring Blade allows all your Fighter powers to use Cha to attack with.

Pick up Harlequin Style to make your Brash Strike power something to be feared. The target of it will not hit you. Period. Then you use Lightning Rush to keep your allies safe and suddenly the DM finds himself in a terrible position, not knowing who to attack. It's tactically satifsying and a strong build.

Since the Battlemind and Fighter punishments key off a generic mark, if an enemy shifts, you get to both punish them with your Fighter mark punishment and shift next to them. If they simply move away, you OA them and stop them in their tracks with Combat Superiority. You can mark with your minor action from Battlemind and you can mark with your Brash Strike (or any other Fighter) power. So you can end up having a lot of monsters marked at one time. And the monsters cannot escape.

[Zaq]

Are you looking for a hybrid, or for one class that dabbles heavily in its secondary role? If it's the latter, a Brawler Fighter is extremely good at single-target control (and even dual-target control if you build for it), and most Wardens have some pretty good controllery elements to them as well. If you want to be a controller who leans defender, a Druid is your best bet, though I understand that you can do some bizarre things with an unexpectedly thorny and tough melee/close Invoker (though it takes a bit of setup).

If you want a hybrid, the aforementioned Wizard|Swordmage is probably the most natural pick. I feel like the new were-themes would open up some potential on a Druid|Battlemind, but it'd be weird and would take some tweaking.

[Fallbot]

Are you looking for a hybrid, or for one class that dabbles heavily in its secondary role?

I was happy to go with either, but you and Tegu8788 have reminded me of a swarm druid I was hoping to play when Primal Power first came out but never got the chance to thanks to premature campaign death. I'd forgotten all about it, but this seems like a near perfect opportunity to play one. Thanks for the suggestions everyone, and any advice/experiences with swarm druids would be much appreciated.

[Tegu8788]

There are a few tricks to make a pseudo-Defender. You are going to take the brunt, not all, but the brunt of the attacks. So you either need high defenses, or better yet, lots of health. A vampire would be a horrible pseudo-Defender because of how hard it is to heal, having only 2 surges by default. The whole point of the Defender is soft single target control, making a catch-22. A Controller's debuff works well for part of it, but you need to have some way to punish the enemy. There is a reason so many Defender classes have Striker builds in them. Third, you need some way to keep making saving throws, or prevent conditions from being applied to you. As I understand it the Primal classes lean towards Defender more than the others, (Martial-Striker, Arcane-Controller, Divine-Leader, Shadow-Striker, Psionic-Controller?) so there may be some benefits hidden in there.

This (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19722038/The_Art_of_Defending) is a good guide for being a Defender you can get tips from, and if you want, look up the Defenderlock, a warlock that makes a solid Defender.

[SirWolf312]

One of my players made an Avenger to be a pseudo-defender. It seemed to work pretty well, I'll direct him to this thread so he can post what he wants about it because I can't recall the specifics of how he did it.

[tcrudisi]

One of my players made an Avenger to be a pseudo-defender. It seemed to work pretty well, I'll direct him to this thread so he can post what he wants about it because I can't recall the specifics of how he did it.

Pretty easily. Take Censure of Pursuit and the monsters will not run away from you. Avenger gets amazing AC in cloth, so take Unarmored Agility and Improved something-something which gives +1 AC. So right there, you have a Dex-secondary character with +6 to AC. It's easy to get above-defender level AC from this. Take some feats to improve your NADs and you've got a nigh-unhittable striker who the monster will not run away from. You can't actually mark without the right race or paragon path, but you don't need to. Avengers are made to fight monsters one-on-one.

But that's not a build designed for control. It functions as a nice secondary defender, but it really doesn't function for control at all. I don't really think it would be a good choice with the OP's stated goals.

[Tegu8788]

It might be possibly, using that system, to make a Avenger|Invoker that functions as a Defender|Controller. One thing I've seen with hybrids is you don't always translate one role into another. If the features make it X but it's powers dip heavily into Y, it will act more like a Y as part of a hybrid.

[surfarcher]

If you want an amazing controlling fighter you can't go much past Brawling Fighter with Grappling Strike and focussing on grab and mass mark.

I know the one in our group makes my life, as a DM, hell. At any given moment in an encounter it's like two of the monsters simply don't exist. And when they try to escape him or hit him he simply hammers them into the ground lol. OK well he doesn't always have two monsters grabbed, but on average he is close to it.

[theMycon]

I'll echo the largest plurality here and say "go defender, preferably fighter". If you're in tight spaces (such as a dungeon crawl), a bard ought to be enough controller for your party.

If you want to try an essentials class, the essentials fighter (knight) is an excellent choice here, he's basically a "close burst" defender- he can hold 2 or 3 enemies in place without much issue, in a chokepoint.

[Uruz2012]

I'd recommend warden. It fills both roles quite well. I don't have a build on deck for you but there are a bunch of aura style effects, utility powers to cause difficult terrain and you can mark all adjacent enemies at the end of every turn.

I currently play a hybrid warden/fighter with the Earth Shaker paragon path. If you go that route I recommend taking the feat that increases the size of burst/blast attacks with the thunder keyword. Having a burst 5 encounter power that attacks Fort, does 2[w]+Str and prones if you're in a form (you should almost always be in one) an have spent an action point is really nice. Burrowing double your speed is pretty awesome too.

With that said, check out the other warden powers/paragon paths. Chock full of interesting and fun abilities, especially the form powers. They're all dailies but at lvl12 you'll be able to use one almost every fight anyway. Just make sure to use them at the beginning of the fight as they're most effective when you can take advantage of the stance-like bonuses as well as the one time use attack.

[tcrudisi]

*looks around*

Psst! Hey, Fallbot! Over here!

*looks around a bit more.*

I've got a Wizard|Swordmage for ya. Good stuff. Exquisite. It'll knock your socks right off and leave you that way for multiple sessions! I'll give you a deal on it, too. How about ... $100? There's enough here to last you 2, maybe 3 levels. If you want enough to last all the way to 30, I can do that too, and for only $250. What d'ya say?

Gotta act fast. The mods are still looking for me and I don't have long.

[Fallbot]

*looks around*

Psst! Hey, Fallbot! Over here!

*looks around a bit more.*

I've got a Wizard|Swordmage for ya. Good stuff. Exquisite. It'll knock your socks right off and leave you that way for multiple sessions! I'll give you a deal on it, too. How about ... $100? There's enough here to last you 2, maybe 3 levels. If you want enough to last all the way to 30, I can do that too, and for only $250. What d'ya say?

Gotta act fast. The mods are still looking for me and I don't have long.

Extremely tempting as your offer is,


one of the party members who is on temporary hiatus is a genasi Swordmage|Wizard with a focus on blasts

and I'd rather try something new that won't invite comparison. At the moment I'm leaning heavily towards Swarm Druid since it's a class I've been wanting to play since Primal Power first came out, but never got the chance to, and it seems like it will fit relatively well. If you've got any build advice for one of those it would be appreciated, if not quite $100 appreciated :smalltongue:

I'm going Revenant for race for fluff reasons (not quite optimal, but that's never stopped me before), probably with the Blightbeast PP (yes, I'm planning on making the Mummy).

[The New Bruceski]

*looks around*

Psst! Hey, Fallbot! Over here!

*looks around a bit more.*

I've got a Wizard|Swordmage for ya. Good stuff. Exquisite. It'll knock your socks right off and leave you that way for multiple sessions! I'll give you a deal on it, too. How about ... $100? There's enough here to last you 2, maybe 3 levels. If you want enough to last all the way to 30, I can do that too, and for only $250. What d'ya say?

Gotta act fast. The mods are still looking for me and I don't have long.

I can't help but hear that in Lefty's voice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfelvI_ikf4

[fallenwarrior]

For a tough defender who gets to move enemies around a lot (try bunching enemies up for your party's sorcerer), try this:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Thom, level 12
Half-Elf, Battlemind, Polearm Master
Build: Harrier Battlemind
Psionic Study Option: Persistent Harrier
Eldritch Strike Option: Eldritch Strike Constitution
Half-Elf Power Selection Option: Dilettante
Sentry (Perception class skill)
Theme: Ironwrought

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 15, CON 21, DEX 15, INT 9, WIS 18, CHA 11

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 14, CON 16, DEX 14, INT 8, WIS 13, CHA 10


AC: 29 Fort: 24 Ref: 22 Will: 25
HP: 102 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 26

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +17, Heal +15, Insight +17, Perception +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Arcana +5, Athletics +9, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +8, Dungeoneering +10, History +5, Intimidate +6, Nature +10, Religion +5, Stealth +8, Streetwise +6, Thievery +8

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Ironwrought Attack: Inevitable Strike
Battlemind Feature: Battlemind's Demand
Battlemind Feature: Blurred Step
Battlemind Feature: Mind Spike
Battlemind Feature: Persistent Harrier
Warlock Attack 1: Eldritch Strike
Battlemind Attack 1: Conductive Defense
Battlemind Attack 1: Living Fortress
Heal Utility 2: Iron Resurgence
Battlemind Attack 3: Lodestone Lure
Battlemind Attack 5: Empathic Feedback
Battlemind Utility 6: Winged Weapon
Battlemind Attack 7: Forceful Reversal
Battlemind Attack 9: Shattered Time
Ironwrought Utility 10: Weapon Unity
Polearm Master Attack 11: Leveraging Strike
Polearm Master Utility 12: Reaching Stance

FEATS
Polearm Momentum
Versatile Master
Level 1: Harrying Step
Level 2: Polearm Expertise
Level 6: Wrathful Warrior
Level 10: Hafted Defense
Level 11: Polearm Gamble
Level 12: Avenging Spirit

ITEMS
Bloodiron Scale Armor +3 x1
Amulet of Protection +3 x1
Boots of Levitation x1
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1
Gloves of Recovery x1
Helm of Seven Deaths x1
Belt of Vigor (heroic tier) x1
Carnage Glaive +3 x1
====== End ======


You won't cause really high damage with this build, but you will leave strong melee enemies very frustrated. The basic idea is to use Lodestone Lure to force a marked enemy adjacent, then Polearm Gamble/Eldritch Strike/Polearm Momentum/Forceful Reversal to keep the enemy away from you (and prone). Winged Weapon is there to handle flyers and other enemies who want to keep their distance (should be combined with Lodestone Lure). This works best on melee enemies with reach 1, but you can still pull it off if they have reach 2.

Note that one of the class features of Polearm Master gives your push/pull/slide weapon powers 1 more square of forced movement, which then triggers Polearm Momentum, leaving them prone.

You might want to tweak it just a little bit, but I think the basic concept is pretty good.

[Lokk]

I played a shardmind, swordmage/avenger hybrid that worked out really well for me in a low op game. Very self sufficient, lots of teleporty goodness also has a few ways to grant temporary hit points to yourself as well as heal yourself. A lot of fun for hit and run(or teleport) melee. Gives good options for defender and limited control.

[Epinephrine]

At the moment I'm leaning heavily towards Swarm Druid since it's a class I've been wanting to play since Primal Power first came out, but never got the chance to, and it seems like it will fit relatively well. If you've got any build advice for one of those it would be appreciated, if not quite $100 appreciated :smalltongue:


I've always wanted to play one, too, but when they reworked the Hide Expertise to no longer give Con to defense the class became much less playable. You are stuck in Light armour to use your power, but have no boosts to your AC from attribute progression, as you'l want your Wis and Con to be the stats to bump. If you want to be a defender you should be aiming for Level+16 with 2H or Level +18 with 1H weapons, but you are stuck in Hide, with no shield to start. Even compared to a character with a secondary stat in Dex/Int, you'll be down 2 AC by 8th level (assuming you take Hide Armour Expertise for the +2 to AC and spend a couple of feats getting the equivalent of a heavy shield). You'll fall farther behind as you level, and the bit of damage reduction you have from your stat (scaling pretty slowly, really) will pale beside your enemies continually increasing damage (8+level on average, right?).

[Fallbot]

I've always wanted to play one, too, but when they reworked the Hide Expertise to no longer give Con to defense the class became much less playable. You are stuck in Light armour to use your power, but have no boosts to your AC from attribute progression, as you'l want your Wis and Con to be the stats to bump. If you want to be a defender you should be aiming for Level+16 with 2H or Level +18 with 1H weapons, but you are stuck in Hide, with no shield to start. Even compared to a character with a secondary stat in Dex/Int, you'll be down 2 AC by 8th level (assuming you take Hide Armour Expertise for the +2 to AC and spend a couple of feats getting the equivalent of a heavy shield). You'll fall farther behind as you level, and the bit of damage reduction you have from your stat (scaling pretty slowly, really) will pale beside your enemies continually increasing damage (8+level on average, right?).

Thank you for the response, and you're right, I am concerned about how low her AC is. I intend to ask my GM whether I can use the pre-errata version of Hide Expertise, and I'm trying to shore things up as much as possible with an Aversion staff and other conditional benefits.

It's not ideal, but our game is pretty low OP (a previous Defender|Leader managed the impressive feat of having the second lowest AC in the party, our Warlock thinks an encounter power that's 1d20+8 to hit and deals 1d6+3 damage is appropriate for a level 12 character), so the build's weaknesses may not be quite so crippling as they would be in a higher OP environment.

Besides, I've already gone and made a new avatar. I'd hate to have to change it.