Monster Campaign

[Codexx]

So I'm planning on starting a monster race campaign with my regular dnd group and I just picked up the Savage Species, I've been reading through how they suggest doing the adjustment and creating monster characters but I'm still not fully catching onto it. Has anybody else ever created a monster character or dmed one that could give me some pointers or help explain the savage species a little bit better.

[Grail]

I have, long ago - can't really remember, but what I can is to steer clear of the Anthropomorphic animals... especially the Baleen Whale, seriously overpowered. Just don't let them be used.

[joe]

Monster PCs are pretty complicated, and easy to mess up if you don't look it over carefully (I've seen this happen). Monsters have racial HD, which has to be completed before they can start taking real class levels. Also they have Level Adjustment, which basically acts as a level without gaining HD (though Savage Species grants powers on these levels.)

Long story short, a monster is at standard when its character level is equal to the Level Adjustment + Racial HD, and cannot start gaining class levels before then.

For example, a Rakshasha has 7HD and +7 Level Adjustment, so it will not start getting class levels until it reaches character level 14. It will probably get hit dice every other level, but it requires 14 Rakshasha levels before it can do anything else, such as take its first level of sorcerer.

The Savage Species Book is more of a guideline than anything else. If a player wants to use a race not in there, it shouldn't be too difficult, so long as you just find a race in there of comparable HD and Level Adjustment and switch the abilities they gain.

Hopefully this helps. I've done a couple monster campaigns where the DM didn't really understand what they were doing, which leads to ridiculously overpowered characters.

[eggs]

Some of the Outsiders with front-loaded caster levels and HD are really outrageously powerful at low levels. But most of the classes in Savage Species go from quite strong at level 1 to almost unplayably weak and HD-starved whenever they finish their class progressions. I've seen the SS mechanics used a few times, but I've never seen them work well.

A better system would be turning monsters' signature abilities into the premise for classes of their own that don't try to perfectly recreate the base monster (since monster and player content is designed under drastically different principles). There's been plenty of homebrew along those lines.

EDIT: Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192151)'s a thread along those lines that I found on this forum.

[Urpriest]

Ahem. See sig.

[Codexx]

I very much like your guide Urpriest and I've been reading through it, most of it I've known, I've just never worked with pc's as monsters classes before, and that's where I was confused.

I'm also kind of a fan of the dumbed down monster classes that eggs linked, I may just use those to simplify everything.

I'm definitely gonna read throughout your whole guide though, it's very nice.

[137beth]

I think that the idea that using monster classes as RAW are "too weak do use" does not need to apply in a monster campaign, if it is done right. They are certainly weaker than if you use a normal race and start gaining class levels right away, but if every player starts with the same power, then there is no problem. Of course, not every monster class has the same power, so you need to be careful, but the exact same problem exists with core classes and races. Honestly, the D&D characters are so powerful that making everyone use sub-optimal races won't break your campaign.

[Madara]

Some of the Outsiders with front-loaded caster levels and HD are really outrageously powerful at low levels. But most of the classes in Savage Species go from quite strong at level 1 to almost unplayably weak and HD-starved whenever they finish their class progressions. I've seen the SS mechanics used a few times, but I've never seen them work well.

A better system would be turning monsters' signature abilities into the premise for classes of their own that don't try to perfectly recreate the base monster (since monster and player content is designed under drastically different principles). There's been plenty of homebrew along those lines.

EDIT: Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192151)'s a thread along those lines that I found on this forum.

I second this, there are some very good ones. My suggestion, limit them to classes with up to X levels, this makes it easier to get the hang of monster classes, because you don't have someone taking The Big T or such.

[Frog Dragon]

The Gestalt rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) might be a good fit here. It would neatly dodge some of the biggest problems with playing monsters (LA eating half your HD) since you can just apply LA and monster HD on one side while taking class levels on the other. Most working monster games I've seen have been gestalt.¨

Edit: Alternatively, the project Eggs linked.

[Mithril Leaf]

Alternatively (although I'd recommend it in addition to reading Ur-Priest's handbook), you could use the monster classes made by Oslecamo of the Mix/Max forums (Formerly Brilliantgameologists).
They may be found here:
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=i81spv7868ovns35c8spthsb30&topic=270.0

[JeminiZero]

In place of Gestalt, a similiar possibility is to provide them with a certain amount of free LA. Like Gestalt, this lets them have RHD without needing to suffer dead LA levels. Unlike gestalt, the power level is kept lower, since they just have Free LA + RHD + Class levels, rather than LA + RHD // lots of Class levels.

Also, in addition to the monster classes, there are several humanoid base classes that are meant to represent monstrous characters. The Ozodrin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234951) is a fairly popular one. And of course my own Trissociate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234951) can be used to make several flavors.

[Gwendol]

In a monster campaign, the LA+0 ones will be kings.

[Draken]

Some of the Outsiders with front-loaded caster levels and HD are really outrageously powerful at low levels. But most of the classes in Savage Species go from quite strong at level 1 to almost unplayably weak and HD-starved whenever they finish their class progressions. I've seen the SS mechanics used a few times, but I've never seen them work well.

A better system would be turning monsters' signature abilities into the premise for classes of their own that don't try to perfectly recreate the base monster (since monster and player content is designed under drastically different principles). There's been plenty of homebrew along those lines.

EDIT: Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192151)'s a thread along those lines that I found on this forum.


Alternatively (although I'd recommend it in addition to reading Ur-Priest's handbook), you could use the monster classes made by Oslecamo of the Mix/Max forums (Formerly Brilliantgameologists).
They may be found here:
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=i81spv7868ovns35c8spthsb30&topic=270.0

Technically this is the same material. Only with some differences that sprung after Oslecamo... Left this forum, and the project was picked up by everyone else.

Search for monster classes in the homebrew section and you will find quite a few threads. Other good examples of monstrous classes in here are the Harrowed (Lord Gareth) and the Evolutionist (Me). Kellus' Must Affix Everything to Everything (Xenoalchemist, graft class) is not technically a monster class but it works pretty well.

[deuterio12]

Technically this is the same material. Only with some differences that sprung after Oslecamo... Left this forum, and the project was picked up by everyone else.

Hmm, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it looks like the project here seems to have been locked quite a bit of time ago, while the one in the minmax boards appears to still be going?

Also at a glance there's quite a bit of diferences between certain same monsters of either project. I guess extra choice for us!

[Frog Dragon]

Hmm, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it looks like the project here seems to have been locked quite a bit of time ago, while the one in the minmax boards appears to still be going?
Yes and no. The community project itself is kaput. However, some users have continued making them as a personal effort. For example, Mystic Muse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199321), who has quite a list already.

[deuterio12]

Yes and no. The community project itself is kaput. However, some users have continued making them as a personal effort. For example, Mystic Muse (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199321), who has quite a list already.

Taking a look at the front page (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?board=34.0) of the minmax boards one, a new community seems to have formed over there. There's five diferent authors just in the first page, including Prime32, which if I'm not mistaken is also a member of this forums (or that's a big name coincidence).