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Lvl45DM!
2012-06-24, 11:11 AM
Hey guys in the campaign I'm playing right now my evil party is coming up against a good party and I'm sick of getting out evilled by my allies. So I'm looking for some ideas of evil ways to get an advantage over a very powerful good party. The evil party has a cleric 2 rogues 3 fighter mages, one of which is a vampire a fighter an anti paladin and an evil ranger. The good party is mostly unknown but they have one very powerful good artifact and a giant Vishap (a kind of dragon from an Arabic campaign)
We are on the Earth plane so there's limited option for human shields.
Its 1st Edition but I'm looking for broader ideas rather than specific spells or whatnot.
Any advice would help.

Also any stories about similar things you guys have gone through would be cool too. We've never faced Good guys before, always doing Evil vs Evil so I'd love some other tales

newBlazingAngel
2012-06-24, 12:19 PM
I can't share personal experience, but I do have some advice.

1) Destroy the dragon. It sounds obvious, but this thing is obviously some kind of trump card, and destroying it right away will likely put the edge in your favor.

2) Gather more information. No matter what, knowing the enemy is your greatest advantage. Do your absolute best to study them and learn any possible weaknesses.

3) Don't underestimate a plan. Having even a loose outline for battle strategy is better than rushing in blindly. But the plan is not written in stone. If something goes wrong, it is just fine to abandon it for a new tactic.

QuidEst
2012-06-24, 12:41 PM
Hey guys in the campaign I'm playing right now my evil party is coming up against a good party and I'm sick of getting out evilled by my allies. So I'm looking for some ideas of evil ways to get an advantage over a very powerful good party. The evil party has a cleric 2 rogues 3 fighter mages, one of which is a vampire a fighter an anti paladin and an evil ranger. The good party is mostly unknown but they have one very powerful good artifact and a giant Vishap (a kind of dragon from an Arabic campaign)
We are on the Earth plane so there's limited option for human shields.
Its 1st Edition but I'm looking for broader ideas rather than specific spells or whatnot.
Any advice would help.

Also any stories about similar things you guys have gone through would be cool too. We've never faced Good guys before, always doing Evil vs Evil so I'd love some other tales

I'll be referencing stuff my evil characters tend to do.

Beat them when they're down. Incapacitate somebody, and just start wailing on them with a metal pipe or some other blunt instrument. Unconscious characters should be a target.

Hit them while they're sleeping. Sure, they'll have a watch up, but it's still an advantage.

Dominate/threaten family/mind control somebody innocent into joining the fight. Or make a dummy. Really, anything you can load with vials of poison or other unpleasant stuff and get the Vishap to swallow.

Once you kill one of them, use the body somehow. Whether that's for liquid to get a small water elemental, a body to raise, something to telekinetically puppeteer, a nasty surprise glamoured to look alive and unconscious, or simply as something demoralizing, take advantage of it.

Plan ahead and use diplomacy. Not evil in and of itself, but there is nothing as satisfying as delivering a "your fight is hopeless, accept my terms" speech so well set-up that it works. I've pulled it off once, and it was beautiful.

Use decoys. Plan fake (or real) emergencies elsewhere. Play dead and sneak away.

Debilitate and cripple where possible.

Jack of Spades
2012-06-24, 12:59 PM
There's always the classic gambit of causing some sort of mayhem that needs to be dealt with over there somewhere, and then using that to ambush, split, or simply misdirect them.

Alternatively, just find a way to poison them. Evil gets to be sneaky and cruel-- that is its main (if not its only) advantage. Try to find a way to turn one of their party to your side. You can bet that at least one or two of the party can be bought, given a high enough price.

Also, here's a list of ideas for you. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StockEvilOverlordTactics) Evil is tropalicious. Use that to your advantage when planning evil things.

Slipperychicken
2012-06-24, 06:09 PM
If hirelings are as cheap in 1E as they are in 3.5, you can use a swarm to help defeat them. Have the whole army dress very similarly (identity-concealing, ideally covering the face too), your party dress the same, and try not to stand out too much. Use the mooks as a distraction to give you time to kill them. If they manage to hold out, you can escape pretty easily: just run into a building, change, and walk away quietly.

The do-gooders obviously have enemies whose men they've repeatedly killed, so buddy up with them, and get support. This can be a source of semi-disposable mooks, in addition to the ones you hire. Bonus points if you can get all the "miniboss" opponents they've fought so far into the same combat.

Have someone with a high Bluff plot-hook them into a dungeon (or a building, or some such). Set up a massive ambush in the dungeon, read up on Tuckers Kobolds-esque tactics for 1E (Actually, this is probably a good use for the hirelings. Hand them crossbows to plink away with, and set them up behind cover), and block the exit. Coordinate with the DM, so at worst, this looks like a bad plot hook. Since this is 1E, I'm pretty sure there are all kinds of nasty no-save-just-die tricks. Put in some very cheap traps; the idea being that they think this is just another dungeon-crawl, and aren't prepared for PvP. Make the entrance small enough, and they'll have to leave the dragon outside!

Fight dirty: have someone push walls over on people, have others net them, cage them, tanglefoot-bag them, use caltrops, and otherwise disable. All those things waste people's actions, and give you more time to kill them. Maybe you can set up a cave-in in case things don't go the way you planned (it could even be Plan A, if they don't have a means of reliably escaping).

Divide and Conquer: perhaps prior to the "main event", try to arrange for the party to be separated. If you know where they're sleeping, all the better. If you get them in a city, try to lure one away from the main group, preferably to a place on the other side of town (use something the party member will want to be alone for. Maybe some high-bluff chick brings one "back to her place", or a wizard wants to bring one to the other side of town for spellbook-copying fun). Alone, and quite possibly unarmed, it'll be a much easier kill.

CET
2012-06-25, 11:34 AM
Two things:

1) Evil doesn't care about collateral damage. Good party taking refuge in a city? Start a plague, or an urban fire. Megadose save/die poison into all the drinks at their favorite Inn.

2) I want to expand on Jack's 'Evil Distraction' gambit, because I think this is an area where a 'good' faction is uniquely vulnerable. Given sufficient ruthlessness and understanding of the details of their morality, you can basically dictate their strategic goals.

Suppose one of the tenants that makes them 'good' is that they cannot sit idle and allow innocent people to be harmed by inaction.

On a strategic level, this could mean pulling them into a local conflict (with someone other than you) that weakens them. "The evil warlord (or dragon?) is massacring the villagers!" or whatever, you just need to make sure they get word and have a compelling reason to intervene. Make sure a small child pleads with them to save his parents, or whatever. Then, while their resources and attention are focused on defeating the evil warlord (while they are wounded and after they have used up much of their magic), you strike.

Tactically, use their goodness to force them into traps. You can pretty much dictate that they go into your specially prepared dungeon by baiting it with something that plays to their tenants.

And I agree with slipperychicken - rig the the dungeon to collapse and populate it with expendables and some obvious but dangerous traps. Once they are inside, seal the entrance and trigger its collapse. No amount of hit dice will save them from being crushed when an entire *mountain* comes down. You might need to get creative to prevent them from teleporting or wishing out there if things are that high-level though . . .

QuidEst
2012-06-25, 01:42 PM
With respect to the Evil Distraction Gambit, I've used that in a story with poor outcome for the villain. He set off roof smoke bombs on an orphanage and a hospital to distract the hero. While the hero didn't realize the trick, he did realize there wouldn't be anything he could do to aid the firefighters, and took out the villain instead to prevent more damage.

CET
2012-06-25, 03:04 PM
Good point . . . it's definitely not foolproof. Like all traps, it works best when the bait is tempting ("No problem! I can save the princess from those ogres, and get rich!") and when the victims don't know it's a trap. If you mess up either (or worse, both) of those things . . . not so effective.

Masaioh
2012-06-25, 04:43 PM
-Kidnap some people, use them as hostages, shields, projectiles, hiding spots, stuff like that.

-Find other people that hate the good party and team up with them

-Does miracle exist in 1e? You have a cleric, get an evil god involved!

Lvl45DM!
2012-06-26, 02:54 AM
Thanks guys some of these ideas are good but unworkable due to being on the Earth plane, we just don't have the cash to buy Dao hirelings. The levels are around 12-14 so no miracle or anything massive.
I started poking around for allies against them last session but since they are heroes and we have a few CE people in the party its a struggle.

using corpses and sacrificing a minion to poison the Vishap are genius. I think poison will be the big advantage here.

One more thing. They have this big time good artifact, a magic torch of Heironeous the greyhawk god of valour and paladins. I was thinking of trying to neutralize that in some way. My character is an assassin, so i was going to swipe the torch and use it to beat some innocent victim to death. Reckon that'll be enough to break the mojo?

Lapak
2012-06-26, 08:23 AM
Surrender.

No, seriously! Unless they're a kill-on-the-spot group, they'll take you home and imprison you while they figure out what to do / put you on trial / whatever. You're now in their home base. If you can't do something with that, what kind of assassin are you? Invest in some hidden/disguised/magically summon-able gear, have your team prepped to scry on you and teleport in, or just escape and along the way murder one of them and/or steal their artifact.

QuidEst
2012-06-26, 11:13 AM
using corpses and sacrificing a minion to poison the Vishap are genius. I think poison will be the big advantage here.

*bows* Thanks- I do try. XP

One more thing. They have this big time good artifact, a magic torch of Heironeous the greyhawk god of valour and paladins. I was thinking of trying to neutralize that in some way. My character is an assassin, so i was going to swipe the torch and use it to beat some innocent victim to death. Reckon that'll be enough to break the mojo?

Nah, artifacts are going to be more resilient. It'd probably be something more like "use it to stab an archon who implicitly trusts you in the back, then wash it in the blood" or something. Plus, then you get yourself smitten upside the head by an angry deity. Drop it off in the plane of fire or something that they'll have to quest to get. Sell it off to something bigger and badder and more evil than yourself! (Devils being lawful, it's much easier to strike a bargain with them without getting eaten.)


Ooh, I forgot one!
Illusions:
Buff your illusions as best as you can.
Take any generic evil person or creature- devil will work best. Put a little girl with a blank expression next to him/her/it. When the players attack the evil thing, have whatever they do affect the little girl instead. Bonus points if she starts shedding tears without changing expression.

Thinking about it, if nobody rolls to disbelieve (might take a bit of setup and perhaps a genuine summons), there could be a fake backstory (the little girl sold her soul to said evil guy, probably a devil, to save her parents) and a fake quest (to buy back the girl's soul and allow her to move on). The PCs know in advance they're not getting a material reward out of it, and are probably helping an evil guy out. Not only does it work as a distraction, but you can get something out of it! If possible, though, you'll be able to get them to do it better by sending them out to stop a rival evil group. Makes it much harder for the Paladin to say no, after all.

With regards to succeeding on the roll to disbelieve (and a character that attacks or talks to him will get it), have the devil or whatever claim that of course he isn't showing up in person- it's just his projection.



Surrender.

No, seriously! Unless they're a kill-on-the-spot group, they'll take you home and imprison you while they figure out what to do / put you on trial / whatever. You're now in their home base. If you can't do something with that, what kind of assassin are you? Invest in some hidden/disguised/magically summon-able gear, have your team prepped to scry on you and teleport in, or just escape and along the way murder one of them and/or steal their artifact.

This should never be anything but a last-ditch resort. Once you do it, they get every moral right to kill you and your party. It's also the classic villain move, and unless they're not very savvy, they'll see it coming.

Lvl45DM!
2012-06-27, 02:10 AM
Uhh surrendering is not an option with my party. The fighter chick is insanely violent the drow fighter mage is insanely arrogant and the half dragon fighter mage is insanely violent and arrogant. And there is no way I am going near them without the rest of my party. However...
An undetectable alignment spell combined with me looking like a helpless little kid (halfling btw) should let me get close enough to backstab their mages and then run and hide. Bears thinking on.

I just realized something awful. No demon summoning. Due to the nature of the planes cosmology in 1E you can't access the outer planes from the inner planes. Maybe a Noble Dao might be interested...

Jack of Spades
2012-06-27, 09:10 AM
And there is no way I am going near them without the rest of my party.

Why not? As long as you make it clear you're waving a white flag, the surrender plan would work just as well alone. However, it's probably still better as a last resort option.

Lvl45DM!
2012-06-27, 10:51 AM
They have a paladin who can detect evil, a mage who could get rid of any alignment confounding spell and read my thoughts, a mighty artifact of good I have no idea what it does and a pet dragon. Sure I'll do it to survive over losing but thats not a plan. Now if they are busy fighting my party they are less likely to look too close at poor potential sacrificial victim orphan boy. And then BAM! poisoned +3 dagger to the mages back! x5 damage won't take her out but itll make the next fireball headed her way a bit more deadly. and then i go invisible and run.

Meanwhile the zombie we've layered with illusions has gone down the Dragons gullet.

Ok new question. Should we load up the zombie with a delayed blast fireball, a bunch of oils and go out like that guy in Justice League: New Frontier? Or should we go for a trope, Too Spicy for Yog Sothoth and dunk that corpse in poison and disease

Driderman
2012-06-27, 01:48 PM
They have a paladin who can detect evil, a mage who could get rid of any alignment confounding spell and read my thoughts, a mighty artifact of good I have no idea what it does and a pet dragon. Sure I'll do it to survive over losing but thats not a plan. Now if they are busy fighting my party they are less likely to look too close at poor potential sacrificial victim orphan boy. And then BAM! poisoned +3 dagger to the mages back! x5 damage won't take her out but itll make the next fireball headed her way a bit more deadly. and then i go invisible and run.

Meanwhile the zombie we've layered with illusions has gone down the Dragons gullet.

Ok new question. Should we load up the zombie with a delayed blast fireball, a bunch of oils and go out like that guy in Justice League: New Frontier? Or should we go for a trope, Too Spicy for Yog Sothoth and dunk that corpse in poison and disease

I'd suspect an arabic-themed dragon might be immune to fire, so go with the spice. Although being arabic-themed it might be immune to spicy food too :smallbiggrin:

QuidEst
2012-06-28, 10:15 AM
Meanwhile the zombie we've layered with illusions has gone down the Dragons gullet.

Ok new question. Should we load up the zombie with a delayed blast fireball, a bunch of oils and go out like that guy in Justice League: New Frontier? Or should we go for a trope, Too Spicy for Yog Sothoth and dunk that corpse in poison and disease

http://static4.fjcdn.com/comments/Why+_4530306741551b07c7582ac199a12c37.jpg
Seriously, I can't think of any reason not to have a Delayed Fireball and poison and disease. (Apart from the DM ruling that the fireball burns up the poison or something.) This is a dragon. You want that thing sick, exploded, and poisoned all at once. I agree, Fireball might not be the best choice- see if you can drop some cold damage on the overgrown lizard.

Also… what are the Animate Dead rules in this edition? 'Cuz nothing says "Evil" like raising a predator's last meal inside it.

Keep in mind, the dragon meal needs to come first. Once you're in combat, the dragon will kill you first and deal with meal time later. Point out to the DM that the dragon is probably getting pretty hungry on such a barren plane.