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Nimbian
2012-06-24, 10:27 PM
For those of you who have never heard of it, the SBG was a 3.0 Book that details the costs involved in building, and Maintaining a Stronghold.

For the Record it can be used as is. In fact I have used it to make some awesome structures in game (using the Landlord Feat) much to my GM's Pain :smallbiggrin:

Now thou I've been getting more and more serious about fallowing the rules in 3.5 so I've been working on Updating the book

so I'm seeing if there is any interest in a Collaboration?
I'm looking for at least 2 other people.

nonsi
2012-06-25, 01:10 AM
Before you go about fixing things, I'd suggest that you define what it is that you think needs fixing, and equally important: why.

Nimbian
2012-06-25, 08:53 AM
A Very Valid point.

My Objective is to Update not to Fix per say. So I will list my Objectives Chapter by Chapter.

Overall my Objective, or Guiding principle is to make the the Steps more Clearly defined, the Bonuses Clearly Defined and to add anything that is missing that was published later but should be included for completeness or for interest, (Maininly information for Dungeonscape, Cityscape, and the DMG)

Chapter 1: Building a Stronghold.
This chapter Starts of with Step 1: Selecting a Site. Which is all about modifiers. The only thing I really want to do here is clearly define what modifiers can stack with which. Personally I want to separate things like Temperature, Climate, and Site Features, Add a bunch of Optional complexity for those that want the extra detail, things like the Main race of the Primary city affecting costs, or the various forms of transportation of the materials affecting costs. Also changing the Settlement chart to reflect better the Bonuses and Costs with building at various distances from it.

Step 2: Choose a Size, is redundant. if I would keep this at all I would incorporate it in the Site selection as some sort of Deed Cost for the land.

Step 3: Purchase Components and Walls. Here is the part that needs the most Updating. (Altho the detail is in chapter 2) many of the Bonuses that are supplied are meaningless in a 3.5 game. Some of the Components are over Priced significantly although some are spot on. For the most part I wish to clean up the chart and instead of just listing the Components in Alphabetical order, List them also by Group Function. List all the Quarters together, all the Food Preparation together and so on. I would also like to add Components that deal with "Background" issues like Water supply and Sanitation.

Changing the Order in which the Following information is displayed For example bringing the Door and Windows Cost up to be directly after Components. with Walls Afterwards.

Step 4:Wondrous Architecture. I would like to incorporate this as part of the Component costs, as Extras, I'll have to see when I actually get to this part.

Step 5: Determine Final Price.
This is just fine except More Detail needs to be paid in determining Build time. Clarifying this would Help a lot (this is from Me arguing with My DM, and Players Arguing with Me as a DM over how long it takes to build)
Staff Costs, I would like to update to be consistent, remove unnecessary "Jobs" (by Combining most of them into 4 or 5) and add NPCs for Some Jobs Like Cleric or Artificer or Wizard/Sorcerer, with appropriate Costs of Course.

Step 6: Map your Stronghold
Nothing is Wrong here.

Step 7: Nothing Wrong here

Chapter 2:
More or less just giving absolute value where ever possible, Adding relevant Special materials for Walls and Doors, Magic casting and other things. Removing the current Magic Items section and replacing it with a List of Extras for all Components

Chapter 3:
Nothing needs Changing here, but in light of other changes a Thorough read and update may be necessary, Personally I would like to include optionally charts for Detail and "Encounter" Charts for DMs to use if their players like a Stronghold based campaigns.

Nimbian
2012-06-25, 11:19 PM
hmmm Either my lengthy reply to Nonsi has scared every one away or people just aren't interested in an update for the Stronghold builders Guide.

I'll just Start and let the forum tell me why I'm wrong then :smallbiggrin: since isn't that what the internet is about?

Step 1: Selecting a site.

From my perspective the Most important task when selecting where to build isn't where you are building but where your materials are coming from. Consider these three Examples of three Sites and settlements, for why the Primary Settlement Should be at the top of the list.

The Builder is Argos, a Typical Human Adventurer. Close to where he want to build a Keep there are three Cities, One is a Mixed Town, (population: The Common Races, leaning towards Human) another is a Halfling Town, the other is a Dwarven citadel.

Argos wants to build his Keep into a Cliff side, he is a wizard looking to build a place to study in peace. He considers his Options, The Halfling town is pretty close, but the diminutive Halflings will require extra labor to build his Keep to accommodate his height. The Dwarves however are both skilled in stone working, an asset when digging in his Keep, But they are the farthest away. The Mixed town is in the middle, it does have access to Dwarven workers so the penalty for building into a cliff face will be reduced, and the Elven Mages can provide Magic as a added benefit.

So he chooses the Mixed City.

Next up Primary Transportation How will Argos Get his Materials to his keep?

nonsi
2012-06-26, 12:05 AM
If you wish to reorganize the book, that's your call, but I think you'r confusing reorganizing with homebrewing.
If you know of specific rules in the book that need fixing, share your thoughts. If people will have anything to contribute, they'll share.
I don't believe anybody's gonna take part in rewriting the book. Even if the outcome will be 700% better than the original, it just aint worth it. Strongholds & construction rules are just not significant enough in RP to justify the effort.






Next up Primary Transportation How will Argos Get his Materials to his keep?
Why do you care ?
Argos has hired a group of workers to build his place. Just have him pay them up and let them (meaning: no one) worry about that.
You see, those kind of details are what I call "grocery store lists". They don't promote the story line or the experience of RP or adventuring. There's nothing "Fantasy" about them.

Nimbian
2012-06-26, 01:38 AM
Thanks for Replaying again Nonsi!


If you wish to reorganize the book, that's your call, but I think you'r confusing reorganizing with homebrewing.
If you know of specific rules in the book that need fixing, share your thoughts.

I am not just reorganizing the book, I wish to add Rules (optional Rules yes) to flesh out the system, Rules that provide mechanical (if you get my meaning) incentive to care about these things. I intend to post here to get peoples opinion on what I'm proposing to change because some times I go Overboard with creating new rules.


If people will have anything to contribute, they'll share.

This is all I'm asking I'm not asking any one to write a essay on the Building practices of House Canith in Eberron. just give a Honest opinion on what I am proposing, and if they wish to contribute then to do so.


I don't believe anybody's gonna take part in rewriting the book. Even if the outcome will be 700% better than the original, it just aint worth it. Strongholds & construction rules are just not significant enough in RP to justify the effort.

Personally I believe this is because its usually only one player who wants some thing like this in any particular Group. Does a DM want to spend three hours discussing with a Disagreeing group about Where and Why they should build a Castle here, or a Guild hall there? No, Not when the rules only make sense when your done building it and he has to do all the math himself, because he can't trust any one else to do it properly due to the way the rules are written? or Should he just trust that one player who Really wants this?

I believe that if the Rules are there (even in an Optional Capacity) and Flow in a clear and logical way then groups can have fun building their Stronghold. And the best part if they don't want to they don't need too.

As to it being too much work, well How many Homebrews are on this very Forums? I enjoy creating, and collaborating, if others are interested Great! if not well I still had fun creating it even if only my own group uses it.

As a side note DMs could use it with out the Costs to help in their own world building. if it clearly shows what is available and why. again simply my opinion


Why do you care ?
Argos has hired a group of workers to build his place. Just have him pay them up and let them (meaning: no one) worry about that.
You see, those kind of details are what I call "grocery store lists". They don't promote the story line or the experience of RP or adventuring. There's nothing "Fantasy" about them.

I guess i should have pointed out Argos is the PC. and yes he could just pay for his keep go adventure for 3 months and come back to his perfect, and now finished keep.

The Why of the Details is really quite simple, because some people do care, it does provide a small discount on the cost if your building on a Major road, then a country trail as an example. if neither the DM nor the Player cares then by all means skip this step! if the DM wants he can use it to have the players change his world even involving the players in the worldbuilding. I plan to include very simple costs for building your own roads, or improving the water ways or by Magic or other methods.

In one world I have the players built a Keep using the SBG, even improving the road that lead to it and founding a kingdom. Eventually they all retired, (we wanted to try Mutants and Masterminds.) when we returned I had that keep still there but now old and broken down, with their own magical defenses now killing their new characters.

I'm not saying "Well if you can't make it fun then your not a good GM" some players like it some don't. Some GMs need the Rules to help them think some don't. A Group might Love the idea of building a stronghold, but the GM has no idea how to go about it.

If in the end after I've gone about rewriting the book because I want to, and just one other GM has found it useful then Dam I'll be happy. if Not well Me and my group will still use it and in the end isn't that all matters, in a homebrew?

Nonsi I'm sorry if my reply seems preachy or overbearing, I'm just excited about this project.

DracoDei
2012-06-30, 08:57 PM
Well, if I owned this book I would be all over this...
My degree is in mechanical engineering.
"The only difference between mechanical engineers and structural engineers is that mechanical engineers build weapons while structural engineers build targets."