Magic staffs and wand chambers

[Agent 451]

Are magic staffs created using Craft Staff legal targets for placing attaching wand chambers on to? The DMG has only this to say: "A typical staff is like a walking stick, quarterstaff or cudgel."

That's pretty much it though, there is no mention of staffs being used as a quarterstaff for the purpose of causing damage in combat. The only exceptions to this in the DMG are the Staff of Power, and the Woodlands staff, both of which function as +2 quarterstaffs.

So are these two examples the only ones that are usable as quarterstaffs, and valid for use with wand chambers? Or is this just saying that these two are the only ones that are also usable as a magic weapon out of the bag and all magic staffs can hold wand chambers?

Edit: Clarity.

[Answerer]

Dungeonscape says that a wand chamber "can hold a single wand." It's not given the ability to hold anything else, so by RAW, it couldn't hold a non-magical wand-shaped shaft of wood – only a wand. Since staves are not wands, it couldn't hold one.

Now, being that strict is a little absurd. Nonetheless, staves are usually described as being larger than wands (certainly, the definition of the English word "staff" is a long, straight stick, used for walking or fighting; a wand-sized stick would not be suitable for either purpose, nor could be described as "long"), which means I think a lot of DMs aren't going to allow you to make one as small as a wand.

Certainly, if I were to allow wand-sized staves (which... I could probably be talked into), I'd allow it to fit in and work with a wand chamber.

[TuggyNE]

Dungeonscape says that a wand chamber "can hold a single wand." It's not given the ability to hold anything else, so by RAW, it couldn't hold a non-magical wand-shaped shaft of wood – only a wand. Since staves are not wands, it couldn't hold one.

Now, being that strict is a little absurd. Nonetheless, staves are usually described as being larger than wands (certainly, the definition of the English word "staff" is a long, straight stick, used for walking or fighting; a wand-sized stick would not be suitable for either purpose, nor could be described as "long"), which means I think a lot of DMs aren't going to allow you to make one as small as a wand.

Certainly, if I were to allow wand-sized staves (which... I could probably be talked into), I'd allow it to fit in and work with a wand chamber.

I believe the OP meant the other way around: not fit a staff into a wand chamber, but put a wand chamber (and thus a wand) on a staff.

Given that Magic Item Creation Costs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableSummaryofMagicItemCrea tionCosts) lists a masterwork quarterstaff as a required component of a staff, and along with your earlier quote, I don't see why not. It's a weapon, so it can hold a wand chamber, no?

[ericgrau]

Ooh, that's helpful to my own plans with staff-wielding gestalts/gishes. Before I never saw something clearcut saying the staff is also a weapon. I hated the uncertainty.

[Marnath]

I believe the OP meant the other way around: not fit a staff into a wand chamber, but put a wand chamber (and thus a wand) on a staff.

Given that Magic Item Creation Costs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#tableSummaryofMagicItemCrea tionCosts) lists a masterwork quarterstaff as a required component of a staff, and along with your earlier quote, I don't see why not. It's a weapon, so it can hold a wand chamber, no?

Theoretically it should be able to hold two wands, right? One in each end.

[Agent 451]

It *should* be able to hold one on each end, provided it is also a viable double weapon. Although a masterwork quarterstaff is listed as part of the material cost for custom item creation I couldn't find anything saying it could be used as a weapon, apart from the two items I listed in the original post.

To be honest I think it should be fine. I did notice later that the two rods staffs I mentioned that function as +2 quarterstaffs both require the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, the rest do not. I guess staffs (this pluralization just seems so wrong!) can go either way, depending on what feats you have when you create them.

Guess that answers the question! Thanks guys.

[eggs]

Are magic staffs created using Craft Staff legal targets for placing attaching wand chambers on to?
I like the way you think!

[Thomasinx]

I personally dont think that you can classify a magical staff and a quarterstaff as the same type.

A quarterstaff is a double weapon that can be used to bludgeon someone, whereas a magical staff is more like a wand.

Imagine a quarterstaff as a heavy oak stick, while a magical staff is an intricate, fragile stick, that you wave at someone before they catch on fire. If you hit someone with the magical staff, it might break.

That said, you might be able to attach a wand-chamber to it, since it might still be classified as a weapon. (although, not two chambers, since it wouldn't be a double-weapon).

[TuggyNE]

I personally dont think that you can classify a magical staff and a quarterstaff as the same type.

A quarterstaff is a double weapon that can be used to bludgeon someone, whereas a magical staff is more like a wand.

Imagine a quarterstaff as a heavy oak stick, while a magical staff is an intricate, fragile stick, that you wave at someone before they catch on fire. If you hit someone with the magical staff, it might break.

While this is an interesting idea, the rules seem to strongly suggest that a magical staff is directly made out of a quarterstaff. What process would reduce the strength of a heavy oak stick so much, and why would that be necessary?

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... I could see aquatic casters making Magic sharktooth staffs :smallamused:

And are not rods counted as light maces? Wand chambers in a few of those, perhaps?

In a side note: Anyone know of a way to recharge staffs, preferably with unused spells at the end of the day? I only know of one that can replenish itself (druid spells, you plant it for a few weeks).

[only1doug]

In a side note: Anyone know of a way to recharge staffs, preferably with unused spells at the end of the day? I only know of one that can replenish itself (druid spells, you plant it for a few weeks).

Dragon Magazine 388: Recharge staff feat. (requires the Wizard ACF imbue staff from the same magazine).

Discussion of article (http://www.enworld.org/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2741174)

[HunterOfJello]

A character who fights in melee with a magical staff that has a wand stored in each end of it would be freaking awesome.

[Agent 451]

And are not rods counted as light maces? Wand chambers in a few of those, perhaps?

Same sort of issue as with the DMG examples of Staffs.


Many (rods), as noted in their descriptions, can function as light maces or clubs due to their sturdy construction.


1. Rods usable as weapons, such as a rod of flailing, must include the masterwork weapon cost.

The only rods that meet the criteria straight from the DMG are rods of: Alertness, Flailing (this one is slightly odd, it transforms *into* a weapon), Lordly Might, Python, Thunder and Lightning, Viper, and Withering.

Considering it only costs 300 gold to make either a rod or staff into a weapon, I don't see why anyone wouldn't. That price may be worked into the formula for the DMG examples, but we all know how well those pan out when you try to price an identical custom item :smallcool:

I couldn't find anything on scepters in LEoF, but considering they are described as being akin to a rod that casts spells instead of doing some specific coolness. That said, I don't see why they couldn't be used as a light mace or club if you pay the masterwork price at creation.


If you hit someone with the magical staff, it might break.

Not if you're Gandalf :smallbiggrin:

[Toliudar]

Staffs are described as being "like a quarterstaff", and being 2-3 inches thick, with a break DC of 24. This does NOT suggest fragile to me.

I second the big thumbs-up to the image of someone wielding a magic staff with wands inset into both ends. Add in a weapon crystal, and you have officially pimped your ride.

[Agent 451]

Could you not technically use two weapon crystals?

[Andorax]

Agent 451...by the rules, no...you can't put two weapon crystals into a double weapon.


Was looking at this the other day, and an assortment of other options as well. Want to go the full progression?


Take the Staff of the Magi (D338) wizard variant that replaces your familiar with a magical staff...but don't acquire one at 1st.


Livewood (ECS) Masterwork Ornate (D358) Resilient (D358) Quarterstaff with a Wand Chamber (DSC) in each end.

Obtain at 3rd level with 500 GP worth of additional enhancement (2,000 GP is difficult, but doable). Take Item Familiar (UA) as your 3rd level feat, and make your Magi Staff also your Item Familiar.

Invest XP, skill points, and spell slots into it. Key point: You can now enhance it without the requisite item creation feats, so you can improve it both as a weapon (without Craft Arms and Armor) AND as a Magic Staff (without Craft Staff).

Pick up the Bonded Item (DMG II) feat at 6th level and complete the Ritual of Magic for a +1 to caster level checks and to saves vs spells and SLAs.



Then focus your other feats into feats (Invest Spell and particularly Recharge Staff from the Staff of the Magi article). You could end up with something like....



+3 Defending Warning* Hideaway* Spell-Storing* / +3 Defending Eager* Spell-Storing* staff with a wand of a powerful 4th level spell stuffed in each end, a spell-stored spell in each end that doesn't use up charges, and the ability to dump all your leftover spells at night (at a 5 SL:1 charge trade) to keep the staff's charges at full with whatever charge-bsed spells you've empowered it with.

* These you have to specifically put into the staff...the +3 Defending on each end is part of the SotM benefits. All from MIC.

With a Greater Weapon Augment Crystal (MiC) it can also be +10 hardness, +10 vs Disarm attempts, or sheds bright light in a 60' radius.

You're missing a few spell slots, but receiving in turn several spells usable 3xday as SLAs. You're DEEPLY invested in the staff (if it's destroyed, you're hosed), but you're sporting countless skill bonuses, XP bonuses (likely spent on further enhancing the staff).

The staff is a living thing (Livewood) and intelligent (potentially even having a lesser/greater and Special Purpose power by now due to Item Familar)...other than not being self-propelled, it's practically a cohort.

[Agent 451]

Agent 451...by the rules, no...you can't put two weapon crystals into a double weapon.

Thanks for that clarification, my copy of MIC is being loaned to a buddy atm.

[Downysole]

Agent 451...by the rules, no...you can't put two weapon crystals into a double weapon.


Was looking at this the other day, and an assortment of other options as well. Want to go the full progression?


Take the Staff of the Magi (D338) wizard variant that replaces your familiar with a magical staff...but don't acquire one at 1st.


Livewood (ECS) Masterwork Ornate (D358) Resilient (D358) Quarterstaff with a Wand Chamber (DSC) in each end.

Obtain at 3rd level with 500 GP worth of additional enhancement (2,000 GP is difficult, but doable). Take Item Familiar (UA) as your 3rd level feat, and make your Magi Staff also your Item Familiar.

Invest XP, skill points, and spell slots into it. Key point: You can now enhance it without the requisite item creation feats, so you can improve it both as a weapon (without Craft Arms and Armor) AND as a Magic Staff (without Craft Staff).

Pick up the Bonded Item (DMG II) feat at 6th level and complete the Ritual of Magic for a +1 to caster level checks and to saves vs spells and SLAs.



Then focus your other feats into feats (Invest Spell and particularly Recharge Staff from the Staff of the Magi article). You could end up with something like....



+3 Defending Warning* Hideaway* Spell-Storing* / +3 Defending Eager* Spell-Storing* staff with a wand of a powerful 4th level spell stuffed in each end, a spell-stored spell in each end that doesn't use up charges, and the ability to dump all your leftover spells at night (at a 5 SL:1 charge trade) to keep the staff's charges at full with whatever charge-bsed spells you've empowered it with.

* These you have to specifically put into the staff...the +3 Defending on each end is part of the SotM benefits. All from MIC.

With a Greater Weapon Augment Crystal (MiC) it can also be +10 hardness, +10 vs Disarm attempts, or sheds bright light in a 60' radius.

You're missing a few spell slots, but receiving in turn several spells usable 3xday as SLAs. You're DEEPLY invested in the staff (if it's destroyed, you're hosed), but you're sporting countless skill bonuses, XP bonuses (likely spent on further enhancing the staff).

The staff is a living thing (Livewood) and intelligent (potentially even having a lesser/greater and Special Purpose power by now due to Item Familar)...other than not being self-propelled, it's practically a cohort.

Back to one of the other posters, this seems a lot like what was intended with Gandalf in the movie LotR when his staff seemed to be what was used to focus all his powers. Staff is pretty awesome, but if you take it away, most of your nifty tricks are gone with it.

[TuggyNE]

Back to one of the other posters, this seems a lot like what was intended with Gandalf in the movie LotR when his staff seemed to be what was used to focus all his powers. Staff is pretty awesome, but if you take it away, most of your nifty tricks are gone with it.

Other than the high-CL Outsider SLAs that you're not allowed to use in E6. :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, that's a pretty impressive array of customization.

[Alefiend]

I guess staffs (this pluralization just seems so wrong!) can go either way, depending on what feats you have when you create them.


It seems wrong because it is. the correct plural of staff is staves. While we're on the subject, the use of the word quarterstaff to describe a weapon is an error—though one that has fallen into common usage. A staff is a weapon; quarterstaff is a technique that uses it.


EDIT: Tuggyne pointed out to me that the staff --> quarterstaff thing is not a settled account; there are many who point to a different derivation, that the quarterstaff is made of a quartered beam of wood. Since I don't have (or remember) my primary source, I'll let you decide the matter for yourselves.

But I'm not backing down on staves; I will never use "staffs" except to refer to multiple groups of people who work for multiple employers.

[Answerer]

Every dictionary I looked in included both "staffs" and "staves" for the plural.

I much prefer the latter, personally.

[Agent 451]

Yeah, I was trying to stay consistent with the DMG, even if every nerve ending in my fingertips were screaming "THIS IS WRONG!" while typing it. Despite the fact that both spellings are grammatically correct.

Edit: 'saged! Interestingly enough Wikipedia says this:


For staff (/stæf/ or /stɑːf/) in the sense of "a body of employees", the plural is always staff; otherwise, both staffs and staves (/steɪvz/) are acceptable, except in compounds, such as flagstaffs. Staves is rare in North America except in the sense of "magic rod", or the musical notation tool; stave of a barrel or cask is a back-formation from staves, which is its plural. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_plural)

Which is not how it is used in the DMG, except for the quarterstaffs bit :smalltongue:

[chrisgray86]

How much does it cost to put wand chambers into a weapon or do they have to be put in when the weapon is made? either way how much?

[Vaynor]

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