Question about Scorpion's Grasp

[LordotheMorning]

Can you use Scorpion's Grasp to deal damage on the punch and then again when you complete the grapple? Is there a ruling on this somewhere?

[Irrek57]

Afb at the moment, but i believe the answer is, no, you cannot deal grapple damage on the same round in which you used an unarmed strike or light weapon to initiate the free grapple attempt from Scorpion Grasp. The stipulation should be listed with the feat text in the 'Its Hot Outside' book, Sandstorm.

[LordotheMorning]

Afb at the moment, but i believe the answer is, no, you cannot deal grapple damage on the same round in which you used an unarmed strike or light weapon to initiate the free grapple attempt from Scorpion Grasp. The stipulation should be listed with the feat text in the 'Its Hot Outside' book, Sandstorm.

It has no such stipulation.

[prufock]

Can you use Scorpion's Grasp to deal damage on the punch and then again when you complete the grapple? Is there a ruling on this somewhere?

Yes. Part of the chain of events of starting a grapple is

Step 3

Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.

If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

The only limitation for grappling damage is

If you initiated the grapple while armed, however, you cannot make additional grapple checks to deal damage during the round in which you use this feat.

This only applies to "additional grapple checks," meaning iterative attacks, etc. You would still do damage for starting the grapple. I'm not sure of the logic in including that stipulation, but it's there all the same.

[LordotheMorning]

So does that mean a monk could double his damage output simply by attacking (dealing unarmed damage), grapping (dealing unarmed damage again), releasing the target as a free action, and repeating? If he has three attacks, he could theoretically deal damage 6 times using this feat. Is that correct?

[Smeggedoff]

That would actually be pretty visually awesome.
Monk punches guy, grabs back of head, pulls down driving knee into guys face. releases, repeats.

[LordotheMorning]

But doesn't it seem a little strange that this one feat completely trounces all four two-weapon-fighting feats by offering one extra attack per bab allowance (in addition to flurry and any other effects like haste!) and let's you grapple the enemy for free as well?

There's got to be some errata for this somewhere if it's this outrageous.

[TuggyNE]

But doesn't it seem a little strange that this one feat completely trounces all four two-weapon-fighting feats by offering one extra attack per bab allowance (in addition to flurry and any other effects like haste!) and let's you grapple the enemy for free as well?

I could be wrong, but ... trouncing the TWF chain doesn't seem all that hard to do, and requiring successful grapple checks (with all the size-based chicanery monstrous enemies can indulge in) is a fairly relevant restriction.

[cagemarrow]

I wonder how this works with a Kusiri Gama as the weapon, especially since grappling moves you into their space? Could be really cool to swing around the battlefield in a spiderman like fashion by dual wielding these and attacking, moving to their square and grappeling to do unarmed damage, dropping the grapple as a free action and using your second attack to hit a different target to move to them. :smallbiggrin:

[whibla]

So does that mean a monk could double his damage output simply by attacking (dealing unarmed damage), grapping (dealing unarmed damage again), releasing the target as a free action, and repeating? If he has three attacks, he could theoretically deal damage 6 times using this feat. Is that correct?

No, unless I'm missing something in Scorpian's Grasp.

When you grapple someone you are grappling, regardless of whether it was you who initiated the grapple. There is no option, when you are grappling, to release the other person(s) in the grapple as a free action. This is only possible if you have your opponent pinned.

[Nich_Critic]

Hmm, but you *could* drop the grapple as an attack. You don't get any extra damage (double the damage but half the attacks), but you could hookshot your way around the battlefield :smallbiggrin:.

[St Fan]

When you grapple someone you are grappling, regardless of whether it was you who initiated the grapple. There is no option, when you are grappling, to release the other person(s) in the grapple as a free action. This is only possible if you have your opponent pinned.

I think the point of contention is within the grapple rules, between step 3 and 4.

You can cause grappling damage at step 3; maintaining the grapple, now, is step 4, and involve moving into the square of the opponent, which is a free action.

Now, the rule say that if you can't move in the target's space, you can't maintain the grapple and thus immediately let go of the target.

So, the question is, can you CHOOSE to not maintain the grapple (not wanting to cause attacks of opportunity from other opponents, for examples) or are obligated to do so. A character is usually considered having the choice to take a free action or not.

[whibla]

Apologies, the way the question was phrased led me to misunderstand the situation.

On re-reading the rules I can certainly see room for both interpretations, but Step 3: Hold does state: "If you suceed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike."

So, you are considered to be grappling before you deal the grappling damage, and the actions you can take while grappling are strictly limited.

I can, as I say, see the potential loophole introduced in Step 4: Maintain Grapple, but there's nothing in there that definitively contradicts anything in Step 3. Being unable to move is not the same thing as choosing not to move. However, the way it is phrased "To maintain the grappple for later rounds..." does almost suggest that there is an option to not maintain the grapple, which wouldn't, in that case, even be a free action (unlike the 5' move into your target's space), it would be a non-action...

Interesting!

I think I'm tempted to change my mind, and agree with LordotheMorning's interpretation, but I certainly can't say for sure that this interpretation is the correct one.

[prufock]

By the PHB rules, there's no option to let go as a free action. To escape the grapple requires an attack action and opposed grapple check.

This article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050308a) provides a non-RAW option for releasing the hold as a free action. However, unless your opponent also chooses to let go, you're still stuck having to spend the action and make the check.

[St Fan]

Even if the option to not maintain the grapple isn't granted, there is also the possibility that the damage is enough to bring the opponent at -1 HP or less.

I don't think you have to take an action to stop grappling with an unconscious or dead opponent. So the tactic could be efficient against plenty low-level mooks.

[Curmudgeon]

Hmm, but you *could* drop the grapple as an attack.
Actually, you can try to Escape from Grapple, but you would need to win the opposed grapple check to do so. There's no guarantee you would succeed.

You don't get any extra damage (double the damage but half the attacks), but you could hookshot your way around the battlefield :smallbiggrin:.
Given that two opposed d20 rolls can vary the results up to 38 points (from 19 higher to 19 lower than your opponent), trying to "hookshot your way around the battlefield" with hit hard/break tactics seems about as likely to result in hit hard/slip/slip results as you fail on your grapple checks with decreasing AB.
If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses. Remember, the defender's opposed check is always at full BAB.

[cagemarrow]

It only has to work once to instill a sense of Awesome to your character though.

It definitely has risks since the movement would provoke attacks of opportunity and is a high risk high reward option. Get enough to hit boosts and it could be worthwhile even with the multiple attack penalties.

As far as dropping the grapple as a free action, the defender could choose to not oppose you letting go. How many bad guys really want to be in a grapple with someone that chose to instigate it in the first place, especially after you already hit them with your weapon and your unarmed strike damage. How do they know you can't do that to them every round. They would probably catch on after the first few attempts and change their strategy though.

With an aptitude weapon or amulet of natural attack, and if you have boomerang daze, they might not even get a chance to oppose if they fail their fort save to avoid being dazed for a round. Although I'm not certain being dazed prevents you from opposing a grapple, but since it prevents you from taking actions it would make sense.

This tactic could be really fun with a group of users, using the Group Grapple teamwork benefit to through on additional +4 or str which ever is greater to the grapple check for each team member aiding.

[strider24seven]

Might I recommend 8 levels in Black Blood Cultist from Champions of Ruin combined with abilities that grant you reach? The 8th level ability Savage Grapple lets you deal damage with all of your natural weapons every time you make a successful grapple check.

For example (an extreme one at that):
Half-Minotaur
Lion Totem Barbarian 3/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Black Blood Cultist 8

using the feats Deformity (Tall) and Inhuman Reach with an Enlarge Person spell... you have some serious swinging/damage power.

Attack... deal damage, grab with scorpion's grasp... deal damage with all of your natural weapons... move into their square, release... deal damage with all natural weapons, attack again....

Works better with more natural weapons, with TWF your fists (legality is questionable unless you use the City Brawler barbarian variant). Works wonders with (great) cleave... especially if you can instagib a mook with your natural weaponry. Then you can swing around from mook to mook attempting to end your turn grappling the BBEG so that you can molest him on your next turn.