First World Synthesist - Is it worth it? [3.P]

[ThiagoMartell]

Hello, playgrounders.
I'm currently away from my group, because of work. I talked to the DM and he wants to use my (now previous) character, a tiefling Mountebank, as a recurring "enigmatic character", which is basically how I played him. The character even works better as an NPC, I believe.
I've been thinking about which character I'd play when I come back. I decided to go for a Synthesist, because I like them. A half-elf Synthesist, because I never played one and they do the best Summoners. Then I noticed I apparently can combine First Worlder with Synthesist.
I'm thinking of a "half-elf changeling" background. Kidnapped by fey when he was a kid, coming back later with fey powers.
I see guy like Kurama from Yu Yu Hakusho. Without the fused eidolon, he is a ranged fighter of sorts, has a few utility spells (specially with the expanded SNA list from first worlder) and stays in the back row.
When "he reveals his true form" (mostly through Summon Eidolon, because I might have to do it in combat) he becomes a terrifying melee threat, still with all his previous potential.
I'll probably take Eldritch Heritage (fey), since it fits the theme and I get Skill Focus for free from Half Elf anyway. Of course I'll take Arcane Training.

Sorry for the wall of text. I have basically two questions:
1) Is First Worlder worth it in a Synthesist? I'll probably take it anyway for flavor, but I want to know what you guys think. Hit dice going from d10 to d6 hurts. Poor Base Attack in the eidolon makes little difference, since Summoner gets 3/4 BAB anyway.
2) How should I build my eidolon? I wanted it to have something of a "primordial elf" feel, like the Sidhe from Changeling or the leShay (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/leshay.htm) from ELH.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. :smallbiggrin:
EDIT: I considered dipping Soulknife to get a mindblade, so I could emulate a leShay better, but even though Pathfinder Soulknife rocks, this seems like a bad idea.
I'm starting at level 8 (which makes a Soulknife dip kinda possible, if I can get the Practided Soulknife feat from Dragon Magazine... but without Blade Skills, that's kinda sucky. Synthesist 8/Soulknife 1, getting +2 EP from half-elf favored class and a level 5 mindblade if I can get that feat from Dragon).

[CTrees]

Will update this when I get a chance (work), but real quick:
-The First Worlder's 1/2 BAB actually does hurt you. Synthesists, when fused, use their eidolon's BAB instead of their own. This only replaces the BAB for their summoner levels (so a First Worlder Synthesist8/Soulknife 2, with a normal BAB of +8, would drop to +6 while fused).
-Technically, the two archetypes don't work together. Both replace the normal eidolon ability. You can't replace the same ability twice. However, as a DM? I'd allow it. Just ask yours.
-Honestly, I don't think it's worth it. You lose a lot, and in return you really only gain an improved summon natures ally (not usable while fused, barring tricks), a better DR option, and the fey type instead of outsider (which is nice, admittedly).

[ThiagoMartell]

Will update this when I get a chance (work), but real quick:
-The First Worlder's 1/2 BAB actually does hurt you. Synthesists, when fused, use their eidolon's BAB instead of their own. This only replaces the BAB for their summoner levels (so a First Worlder Synthesist8/Soulknife 2, with a normal BAB of +8, would drop to +6 while fused).
Actually, it looks like it's worst than that. First Worlder has normal BAB, it's the eidolon that gets 1/2 HD BAB. RAW, I'd be forced to use that, even if my BAB is better. I think my DM would be willing to houserule it the other way around, though.

[CTrees]

Synthesist BAB is tricky, but there HAS been an official answer on the question. Your eidolon only replaces the BAB for your summoner levels. So in the First Worlder Synthesist8/Soulknife2 example, unfused, your summoner levels give you +6 BAB, and your soulknife levels give you +2, for +8 total. Fused, your summoner BAB contribution drops to +4, but your soulknife levels still contribute, so you're at +6. For a more extreme example, a synthesist1/paladin19 wouldn't suddenly be dropped to a +1 BAB when fused.

[ThiagoMartell]

Synthesist BAB is tricky, but there HAS been an official answer on the question. Your eidolon only replaces the BAB for your summoner levels. So in the First Worlder Synthesist8/Soulknife2 example, unfused, your summoner levels give you +6 BAB, and your soulknife levels give you +2, for +8 total. Fused, your summoner BAB contribution drops to +4, but your soulknife levels still contribute, so you're at +6. For a more extreme example, a synthesist1/paladin19 wouldn't suddenly be dropped to a +1 BAB when fused.

I do think that is enough to convince my DM to allow me using Summoner BAB instead of eidolon BAB since my summoner BAB is higher.

[Pilo]

If you want it for fluff reason, you can play like it if you want but First Worlder is a trap. Fluff may not have effect on rules.
You will get a bad bab, less eidolon's HPs. As a warrior-type character, it is bad.

I suggest you not to take it.

[deuxhero]

Can the Half-Elf Summoner archetype in the ARG be combined with Synthesist?

[ThiagoMartell]

If you want it for fluff reason, you can play like it if you want but First Worlder is a trap. Fluff may not have effect on rules.
You will get a bad bab, less eidolon's HPs. As a warrior-type character, it is bad.

I suggest you not to take it.

I want it for the added versatility of SNA (unicorns and nymphs are handy), fey type and DC/cold iron.


Can the Half-Elf Summoner archetype in the ARG be combined with Synthesist?
What is ARG? I believe that's not on prd yet.

[CTrees]

What is ARG? I believe that's not on prd yet.

Advanced Race Guide. My copy hasn't delivered yet, so I can't comment.

[deuxhero]

I want it for the added versatility of SNA (unicorns and nymphs are handy), fey type and DC/cold iron.

I'm assuming you are using 3.5 SNA over PF's then? Because PF nerfed SNA heavily, and neither is on the list anymore.

Exactly how is the 3.P split in your game? You are getting favored class bonus, but I can't tell beyond that (it's actually fairly important for a Summoner compared to others, as they are a charisma focused class with no social skills and the Half-Elf alternate favored class is a HUGE boon).

[ThiagoMartell]

I'm assuming you are using 3.5 SNA over PF's then? Because PF nerfed SNA heavily, and neither is on the list anymore.
Yeah, they are not in the list anymore.
That's why First Worlder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/first-worlder) is good, because it specifically adds them back to the list.

[Pyromancer999]

First Worlder isn't really a good choice for the Summoner if you're optimizing, but I'll oblige it does have great fluff.

Also, since Eidolons are apparently aspects of creatures that exist, here are a couple alternate fluff options for a First World Synthesist:

-During the Half-Elf's time with the fey, he developed into a fey creature. However, he still retained his mortal side a little, which wanted to leave the fey and adventure. Since there was such a conflict between his fey and mortal sides, he shed off his fey side, which became its own being, and left the Fey, wielding a fraction of his former power to show that he has been marked by them. When summoning his Eidolon, he temporarily becomes something the fey creature he once was, becoming more and more complete in this state as he levels up.
-During the Half-Elf's time with the fey, he struck up a friendship with a couple fey. One became his best friend, and upon leaving the fey, he formed a contract with that fey, allowing him to summon a portion of his friend's essence to bolster him in combat.

Again, just something you may want to consider.

[Pilo]

Where the bab is weaker than everything is that your eidolon only get 16HD over 20 levels. That makes you end with a BaB of +7 at level 20 while fused instead of a +15. You will have a worse Bab than a wizard.

Maybe you can ask your DM to only get the SNA part of the ACF.

Otherwise, summoned monsters have nice SLA too.

Edit: My bad.

[ThiagoMartell]

Where the bab is weaker than everything is that your eidolon only get 16HD over 20 levels. That makes you end with a BaB of +8 at level 20 while fused instead of a +16. You will have a worse Bab than a wizard.

Maybe you can ask your DM to only get the SNA part of the ACF.

Otherwise, summoned monsters have nice SLA too.
Like I mentioned before, due to the multiclass Synthesist ruling, I think my DM will allow me to use Summoner BAB instead of eidolon BAB while fused.
Also, eidolons cap at 15 HD, not 16.



Also, since Eidolons are apparently aspects of creatures that exist, here are a couple alternate fluff options for a First World Synthesist:

-During the Half-Elf's time with the fey, he developed into a fey creature. However, he still retained his mortal side a little, which wanted to leave the fey and adventure. Since there was such a conflict between his fey and mortal sides, he shed off his fey side, which became its own being, and left the Fey, wielding a fraction of his former power to show that he has been marked by them. When summoning his Eidolon, he temporarily becomes something the fey creature he once was, becoming more and more complete in this state as he levels up.
-During the Half-Elf's time with the fey, he struck up a friendship with a couple fey. One became his best friend, and upon leaving the fey, he formed a contract with that fey, allowing him to summon a portion of his friend's essence to bolster him in combat.

Again, just something you may want to consider.
I really like the first idea. It's kind of like Kurama Youko, just backwards. I'll be using this, thanks.