Basic Feats versus Bonus Feats

[St Fan]

I have some questions about the order on which abilities (mostly feats) are gained, and it’s a bit too complex for the Basic Q&A thread, so I’m starting this thread.

I know of the basic order in which you gain new capacities when rising in level, and notably that class features (including bonus feats) come last.

My question is mostly, does it work the same at first level?
Especially, do the basic feats of the class (weapons proficiencies, armors proficiencies, and maybe the Monk’s Improved Unarmed Strike too) are considered bonus feats, or are they gained much earlier? This is somewhat important for any feat with prerequisites.

My guess it is the latter, since (for example) a first-level Fighter should be able to gain weapon focus with his starting feats on a weapon he’s proficient with.

Now for a more specific example: A character created as a Monk can pick Improved Grapple (with Improved Unarmed Strike as prerequisite) as a normal feat (reserving the bonus feat for Stunning Fist), right?

If he has two starting feats (a human monk, for example), he should also be able to take Scorpion’s Grasp (http://dndtools.eu/feats/sandstorm--85/scorpions-grasp--2524/) (which has Improved Grapple as prerequisite) at first level.

Now, if the Monk picks Improved Grapple as his first-level bonus feat, would he still be able to master Scorpion’s Grasp at level 1? Or should he have to wait for a later level?

Or, does the order matters more when gaining levels than at character creation, and will most DMs let you fudge things a bit with your level 1 feats?

[killianh]

The order for feats usually goes racial, bonus feat, level 1 feat as far as I know. So in your example you would be able to. Your human feat could be what ever, you gain Improved Unarmed strike and Improved grapple from your class, then Scorpion grasp from you first level feat.

The order might be Racial, Level 1 feat, bonus feats though. I don't believe there is any official RAW for it but you could ask what order the are applied in a simpler manner in the Q&A if you need clarification. Otherwise feel free to ask your DM their ruling on it or if they even care

[Morph Bark]

Wait, class features come last? Including skill points, BAB and saves? :smallconfused:

That just... doesn't make any sense.

[sonofzeal]

IIRC, class is always the first step in the process. Everything else occupies the murky remainder, and I doubt anyone's going to call you on it no matter what you do there. So the class chassis comes first, followed by class features (including any potential bonus feats), followed by whatever else like skill points and regular feats and whatnot.

[St Fan]

Well, I have taken note that the progression below is the one supposed to be used, although I may be in error somewhere - please confirm:

1. Choose Class
2. Base Attack Bonus - from class level gained
3. Base Save Bonuses - from class level gained
4. Skill Points - from class level gained
5. Ability Score - from character level gained
6. Hit Points - from class level gained
7. Feats - from character level gained
8. Spells - from class level gained
9. Class Features - from class level gained (this includes bonus feats)

You see why I was wondering about bonus feats. (I know there is also some debate about Ability score before skill points, too.)

Now, at character creation, Racial Feats > Bonus Feats > Normal Feats makes a lot more sense.

My wonderings were also covering something from The Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords.

It introduces the martial maneuvers, but I don't think it's ever specified when they are supposed to be gained. My guess would be at the same time as spells, which they most closely ressemble.

This question matters for some feats which have maneuvers as a prerequisite. For example, Desert Wind Dodge, for which you need to know a Desert Wind maneuver.

Most builds I’ve seen with it assume you can gain the feat at the same level you get the maneuver, including level 1. However, if the progression is like spells, you’d need to know the maneuver for a preceding level before taking the feat, excluding it even for a level 1 Swordsage.

[Morcleon]

I think there's a clause somewhere that states that there is no progression. Anything gained on a certain level can be used to qualify for a prerequisite for something gained that level. Except for PrCs...

[mattie_p]

St Fan, that is the standard "level up" procedures, found on pages 58-59 of the PHB, but to create a 1st level character turn to page 6 of PHB.

1) Check with DM
2) Roll ability scores
3) Choose class and race ("at the same time")
4) Assign and adjust ability scores
5) Review starting package
6) Record racial and class features
7) Select skills
8) Select a feat

I'll stop there, because a 1st level character gets their class and racial features (including bonus class feats) before selecting their 1st level feat. Also, step 6 also states "Feel free to look ahead or to backtrack and do something over if you need to," which implies a great deal of latitude for 1st level characters, not available during level-up.

[St Fan]

I get that character creation gets a lot of leeway.

However, the case could sometimes happen that said level 1 isn't character creation, for example for a multiclassed character.

In this case, whether basic feats (weapons and armor proficiencies) count as bonus feats or not can get significant.

Though I understand most DMs will let you choose the order in which you pick abilities to be the most advantageous.

[mattie_p]

For a level 1 character (that is, a character who is ECL 1, for a level adjustment race of +0 and no racial hit dice that cannot be exchanged) you use the rules on page 6 of the PHB. Then when advancing that character (giving the character another level, whether in that class or another), you use the rules that you previously mentioned.

For creating PCs above 1st level, refer to page 199 of the DMG. It will tell you that players should specify what class was gained at what level, because of the importance in step 3, which determines feats and class abilities, and step 4, which refers to skills. While not explicitly referring to page 6 and page 58-59, a player creating a character should adhere to those rules.

A DM who rules otherwise is houseruling, however reasonable it may seem. There is nothing wrong with such houserules, which is why the first step on page 6 is to "Check with your DM." The DM should inform the player at that stage of any pertinent houserules which modify the stated rules of the game.

[whibla]

Well, I have taken note that the progression below is the one supposed to be used, although I may be in error somewhere - please confirm:

1. Choose Class
2. Base Attack Bonus - from class level gained
3. Base Save Bonuses - from class level gained
4. Skill Points - from class level gained
5. Ability Score - from character level gained
6. Hit Points - from class level gained
7. Feats - from character level gained
8. Spells - from class level gained
9. Class Features - from class level gained (this includes bonus feats)

You see why I was wondering about bonus feats. (I know there is also some debate about Ability score before skill points, too.)

This does neatly summarise the list on page 58.+ of the PHB, but I suspect the order given was mostly intended to clarify if stat bonuses should be added before new hp's and skill points were awarded and allocated. The ordering of the table just allows for the most generous answer to that question. A couple of things to bear in mind, before I get on to the next point, is that this order also allowed for the more generous answer on eligibility for feats, allocating feats after any prerequisites (as they were at the time the PHB was written) for them were allocated: a wizard(1)/Rogue(1) who took a level of fighter would immediately be eligible to take weapon focus as his bonus 3rd level feat; A character who increased his Int from 12 to 13 would now be eligible to take combat expertise, and so on. Back in the day (ho hum..) feat prerequisites were limited...and few depended on what spells you learned or your additional class features (extra turning being an obvious exception).


My wonderings were also covering something from The Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords.

It introduces the martial maneuvers, but I don't think it's ever specified when they are supposed to be gained. My guess would be at the same time as spells, which they most closely ressemble.

This question matters for some feats which have maneuvers as a prerequisite. For example, Desert Wind Dodge, for which you need to know a Desert Wind maneuver.

Most builds I’ve seen with it assume you can gain the feat at the same level you get the maneuver, including level 1. However, if the progression is like spells, you’d need to know the maneuver for a preceding level before taking the feat, excluding it even for a level 1 Swordsage.

And herein lies the rub. There now exist a number of feats which were written after the simple to follow steps on how to level up a character. Feats that do have a prerequisite of certain class abilities. Point of fact: martial manoeuvres are not spells. They are martial manoeuvres. As such they are either gained as a class ability, or from a feat (martial study). So, to echo your question, what to do about it?

The 1st level Swordsage is the simple case, because, according to the order of character creation on page 6 of the PHB class features are gained before the level based bonus feat. The problem arises in higher levels, or when multiclassing into Swordsage.

Interestingly, the authors of the PHB seemed 'unwilling' to follow their own order when levelling up their example characters: On page 60 of the PHB, under the section headed How Multiclassing Works Lidda levels up to 6th level, taking a second level of mage. They follow all the steps as you gave them, as laid out in the PHB, with one exception. They allocated the level based feat last.


Then when advancing that character (giving the character another level, whether in that class or another), you use the rules that you previously mentioned.

Part of the problem is that the order of advancement that was previously mentioned is then 'rearranged' on the following page....then contradicted again on the subsequent page.


A DM who rules otherwise is houseruling, however reasonable it may seem.

Agreed, yet in the face of these contradictions anyone who has ever levelled up a character has used a house ruling. In my opinion, the numbered order given was intended to allow for the most favourable order of ability gain. The aim of the game was not to stitch characters up as they level, but to empower them. There's no real logical sense in putting the level based stat gain at the start and the level based feat gain towards the end, or the level based numerical gains at the start, and the 'need time to think' spell and special ability gains at the end other than to streamline and simplify the levelling process, and to allow for the most favourable outcomes for the player.

If, in the face of new supplements, the most favourable order means gaining the level based feat last in the levelling order, then gain it last. Is that such a biggie?