Where are these Alchemical Items? [3.5]

[Kansaschaser]

I remember reading about some alchemical items but I don't remember what book/dragon magazine they are listed in.

Gossamer Line - Works like rope, but is as thin as thread. Very hard to spot.

Stonecloth - Stone that has been spun into a fine string. Used to make clothing that can't catch fire.

Acid Drops - Acid that does damage to metal items only. Used by rogues who arn't good enough to pick a lock. They just put a drop or two into a lock and it destroys the lock.

I want to buy some of these items for the game I'm in and the DM always wants to see the source.

[deuxhero]

I'd guess the 2nd is in Races of Stone (just a guess, not checking)

[Telonius]

Stonecloth - Dragon 280, p.52 (says an internet source).

Can't find a reference to either of the others.

[Kansaschaser]

I may have miss-spelled the Gossamer Line. Gossamar? Gossimer? I'm not sure. I just remember it was an awesome alchemical item.

Maybe they were listed in one of the handbooks? You know, the Evoker's Handbook and the Illusionist's Handbook. I think they were 3.0 books that had equipment, some spells, a smattering of feats, and some prestige classes specifically for each school of magic.

It's been a long time since I've seen them and I have never seen a PDF version of the books either.

[Divayth Fyr]

One of the review's of Fantasy Flight's Path of Shadow mentions "Gossamer Line, a thin strong rope". Seeing how it's a book for rogues, I wouldn't be surprised if the acid was from there as well.

[Telonius]

For the "acid drops" ... could have just been a regular acid flask. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm):


Energy Attacks

Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.

If you emptied out a whole acid flask directly onto a lock, I don't see any reason it wouldn't take damage (1d6 acid) as though it were a direct hit on a creature.

[Kansaschaser]

One of the review's of Fantasy Flight's Path of Shadow mentions "Gossamer Line, a thin strong rope". Seeing how it's a book for rogues, I wouldn't be surprised if the acid was from there as well.

Path of Shadows is that white cover book that is technically not official 3.0/3.5 material right?

I might be able to find it, but now I don't know if I can get approval for it. Thanks karpik777. I think that was my answer.

[Curmudgeon]

If you emptied out a whole acid flask directly onto a lock, I don't see any reason it wouldn't take damage (1d6 acid) as though it were a direct hit on a creature.
You would subtract the hardness of the material as normal from the damage, and since steel has hardness 10 that regular weak acid would do nothing.

[Kansaschaser]

For the "acid drops" ... could have just been a regular acid flask. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm):



If you emptied out a whole acid flask directly onto a lock, I don't see any reason it wouldn't take damage (1d6 acid) as though it were a direct hit on a creature.


You would subtract the hardness of the material as normal from the damage, and since steel has hardness 10 that regular weak acid would do nothing.

Curmudgeon is right. The hardness would prevent a normal acid flask from dealing damage.

However, the Acid Drops ignore hardness from metal object. Also, they don't do any damage to anything else.

[Telonius]

You would subtract the hardness of the material as normal from the damage, and since steel has hardness 10 that regular weak acid would do nothing.

I'd disagree. In the Environment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm)section, it specifically makes a monster's spittle equivalent with a hurled flask, as far as rounds of exposure are concerned. If the spittle (which would presumably be an Acid attack, therefore not subject to hardness) does anything, the flask should too.

[Curmudgeon]

I'd disagree. In the Environment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm)section, it specifically makes a monster's spittle equivalent with a hurled flask, as far as rounds of exposure are concerned. If the spittle (which would presumably be an Acid attack, therefore not subject to hardness) does anything, the flask should too.
What makes you think the highlighted statement is true? Acid attacks against objects subtract hardness from the damage just as acid attacks against animated objects (Construct type creatures) do. From page 106 of Rules Compendium:
Energy
Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects.

[Telonius]

What makes you think the highlighted statement is true? Acid attacks against objects subtract hardness from the damage just as acid attacks against animated objects (Construct type creatures) do. From page 106 of Rules Compendium:

I don't see how that's incompatible with what I've said. If an Animated Object is hit with any energy attack, it would have the same hardness as it would if were a regular object. Acid (and sonic) specifically ignore hardness; neither the Rules Compendium nor the Monster Manual entry for Animated Objects contradict that. (Just being a Construct confers no special resistance to Acid).

[Curmudgeon]

Acid (and sonic) specifically ignore hardness; neither the Rules Compendium nor the Monster Manual entry for Animated Objects contradict that.
There is nothing to override, because those attacks do not "specifically ignore hardness". From page 165 of Player's Handbook:
Energy Attacks: Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness. Nowhere in this rules passage are you directed to ignore hardness. For acid and sonic attacks you are referred to the rules for creatures, and I've shown that creatures with hardness follow the standard rule for such attacks: the hardness is deducted from the full amount of damage the attack would normally impose.

There is a reminder of the rule regarding hardness for electricity, fire, and cold attacks. There is no such reminder for acid and sonic attacks. But a failure to repeat that reminder of the normal rule about hardness does not create an exception to the rule. For that exception to exist it would need to be explicitly stated. Can you point to someplace which does so?

[mattie_p]

What Curmudgeon just said.

The only place I see an exception to hardness is on the same page of the PHB, quoted partially on the SRD.


Vulnerability to Certain Attacks
Certain attacks are especially successful against some objects. In such cases, attacks deal double their normal damage and may ignore the object’s hardness.

PHB says "At the DM's discretion" and gives some examples. There are no specifications of this rule in the SRD, so ask your DM if you have questions regarding this.

[TuggyNE]

The only place I see an exception to hardness is on the same page of the PHB, quoted partially on the SRD.

I just looked up a number of Core [sonic] spells; one of them, Sympathetic Vibration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sympatheticVibration.htm) calls out its damage as ignoring hardness. Given that additional exception, I'd say it's quite reasonable to assume even sonic damage doesn't normally bypass hardness.

[mattie_p]

I just looked up a number of Core [sonic] spells; one of them, Sympathetic Vibration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sympatheticVibration.htm) calls out its damage as ignoring hardness. Given that additional exception, I'd say it's quite reasonable to assume even sonic damage doesn't normally bypass hardness.

Good call. I didn't look up spells, because they are basically the exception to every rule.

[Togo]

Acid ignored hardness in 3.0, but in 3.5 I don't think it does...

[Kansaschaser]

Okay, I had a chance to look in the Path of Shadows. The Gossamer line is listed in there. The Acid Drops and the Stonecloth are not listed in there. I think the Acid Drops and the Stonecloth were listed in a Dragon Magazine that had an article on Alchemical Items.

I just don't know what Dragon Magazine they were listed in. :smallfrown:

[Divayth Fyr]

Ekhem, ekhem

Stonecloth - Dragon 280, p.52 (says an internet source).

[Wookie-ranger]

Acid does not ignore Hardness of an object, unless the item/acid specifically says that it does.

Here is the Link:
http://www.adnd3egame.com/documents/mainfaq.pdf
p.76

[Telonius]

There is nothing to override, because those attacks do not "specifically ignore hardness". From page 165 of Player's Handbook: Nowhere in this rules passage are you directed to ignore hardness. For acid and sonic attacks you are referred to the rules for creatures, and I've shown that creatures with hardness follow the standard rule for such attacks: the hardness is deducted from the full amount of damage the attack would normally impose.

There is a reminder of the rule regarding hardness for electricity, fire, and cold attacks. There is no such reminder for acid and sonic attacks. But a failure to repeat that reminder of the normal rule about hardness does not create an exception to the rule. For that exception to exist it would need to be explicitly stated. Can you point to someplace which does so?

The relevant passage is this:
Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit.

Creatures do not typically have hardness; therefore hardness does not apply. Yes, animated objects have hardness - but this is a specific exception to the standard "no hardness" assumption. You might as well say that acid doesn't do any damage to objects, since Copper Dragons (also a creature) are immune to it.

[Curmudgeon]

Creatures do not typically have hardness; therefore hardness does not apply. Yes, animated objects have hardness - but this is a specific exception to the standard "no hardness" assumption.
I 'm completely missing the foundation of that statement. You're saying hardness should not apply, just because it's uncommon? :smallconfused:

Unless you can cite an actual rule which supports your "typically" argument, I don't think you've got a RAW leg to stand on.

[GnomeGninjas]

Stonecloth is also in Dragon Compendium.

[Kansaschaser]

Stonecloth is also in Dragon Compendium.

That's great. I already have that book, so I won't have to try and download the Dragon Magazine. Thanks. :smallsmile:

[Axier]

I 'm completely missing the foundation of that statement. You're saying hardness should not apply, just because it's uncommon? :smallconfused:

Unless you can cite an actual rule which supports your "typically" argument, I don't think you've got a RAW leg to stand on.

While I agree with you almost completely, I would like to find a case of a creature having hardness, because if there is no such thing as hardness for creatures, one could argue that dealing damage to objects as creatures would in theory ignore something that does not apply to creatures.

I still think it wasn't intentional, just poorly written.

[Quietus]

While I agree with you almost completely, I would like to find a case of a creature having hardness, because if there is no such thing as hardness for creatures, one could argue that dealing damage to objects as creatures would in theory ignore something that does not apply to creatures.

I still think it wasn't intentional, just poorly written.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm

Creatures can have hardness. It's rare, but they can. And when they have hardness, it reduces damage from energy based attacks - including Acid, unless otherwise noted.

[Psyren]

Psicrystals also have hardness.

[Axier]

@ Quietus and Psyren:
Thanks, Im supprised I never noticed the hardness of a psicrystal, especially since I love those adorable figments of my psyche!

So yea, specifics matter. As for the acid drops, you could homebrew it based on that one acid that does damage only to stone. I think it is something like "Stonecutter Acid", in "Drow of The Underdark".

[Wookie-ranger]

Did anyone bother to check the link I posted?
it kind of ends the discussion about hardness and acid.

http://www.adnd3egame.com/documents/mainfaq.pdf
Page : 76 (left side, 4th Q&A)


Hardness applies to sonic and acid attacks
It is the official WotC mini FAQ for 3.5; date of publication 6/30/08

[Kansaschaser]

@ Quietus and Psyren:
Thanks, Im supprised I never noticed the hardness of a psicrystal, especially since I love those adorable figments of my psyche!

So yea, specifics matter. As for the acid drops, you could homebrew it based on that one acid that does damage only to stone. I think it is something like "Stonecutter Acid", in "Drow of The Underdark".

Now I'm sure the Acid Drops I saw were in a Dragon Magazine. I can't find them anywhere in any of my books or pdfs. I've found the Stonecloth and the Gossamer line. It must have been a Dragon Magazine about Alchemical Items or one about Rogue Tools of the Trade. Thanks for all your help guys.

[Axier]

Did anyone bother to check the link I posted?
it kind of ends the discussion about hardness and acid.

http://www.adnd3egame.com/documents/mainfaq.pdf
Page : 76 (left side, 4th Q&A)


It is the official WotC mini FAQ for 3.5; date of publication 6/30/08

Nobody trusts FAQs, but thanks anyway.