Animal Companions more powerful in E6?

[Azernak0]

I noticed that it is incredibly easy to create an Animal Companion that is so much stronger than any melee fighter. Not even something like Supermount (though that is still sexy). Just a Druid 6 has an Animal Companion that has as much for more HD than a player character, even more if Natural Bond is allowed to lower the -3 Level Adjustment for superior Animal Companions. It just seems that Animal Companions are stronger in E6 because it is only after about level 6 where Animal Companions start to slow down.

[Zonugal]

I don't know if I'd put an animal companion, just by itself, as stronger than a melee character in E6.

With available options you can build some phenomenal melee characters...

[Lonely Tylenol]

Considering that there are no 1st-level animal companions with 3 HD (and no 4th-level animal companions with 5 HD; correct me if I'm wrong with this, I am away from books), I don't see how you're exceeding 6 HD without Natural Bond.

Now, look at what the Animal Hit Dice gives you:
D8 Hit Dice: You have as much hit points as a Monk, without max HD at 1st level.
Medium BAB: You have as big a BAB as a Cleric. Unless you get 6 HD (through good animal selection or Natural Bond), your creature will have a BAB of +3. Wild Cohort makes this black (you can get up to BAB+6 with a Wild Cohort-enhanced Black Bear, but you don't get iteratives, so it's just for the bonus).
Good Fort and Ref saves: Fort is standard for all melee types. Ref is just for damage, mainly, but it's a plus (and Evasion makes it blue).
Bad Will save: Animals get poor Will, just like most melee classes. It's not exceptionally bad, or worse than others, but it still sucks. Dire animal companions get good Will saves.
Skills: Animals get 2+INT per level. They also have animal intelligence. This means that even if you're being allowed to skill out an animal, they basically get Listen or Spot, and that's it.
Proficiencies: Unless war-trained, an animal has no proficiencies. For war-trained animals (who can wear barding), this is black.
Evasion: Good Reflex means this is likely.
Natural attacks: This varies per animal. Animals with lots of natural attacks get blue, but if most of these are secondary, it's black. Animals with one attack are red.
Special attacks: Leopards get pounce (with two rake attacks) and improved grab. Constrictors get improved grab and constrict. Fleshrakers also get pounce, and crocodiles also get improved grab. Wolves and cheetahs get trip. Weasels and badgers get rage. I'm not sure there is anything else of note.

So your animal companion is basically a Monk 6 with a slightly smaller body and the odd special attack thrown in in place of monk abilities. Natural Bond makes bears slightly better on the body, but still skill-less and lacking in class features. I'll take a Ftr 6 any day; they continue to gain feats in E6, at least.

[Vladislav]

Druid 5/Beastmaster 1 allows a Lion (or Brown Bear) companion advanced twice. That's 9 HD (or 10).
And you're still a level 5 Druid in addition (3rd level spells and wildshape). That's pretty swanky in E6, if you ask me.


Druid 5: effective druid level 5
Add Beastmaster 1: effective druid level 9 (yes, Beastmaster allows you to take your effective druid level above your HD)
Get a Lion companion: -6 effective druid level, for 3 (advanced once)
Take Natural Bond: +3 effective druid level, for 6 (advanced twice)

[Glimbur]

I see the main advantages of an animal companion as two things.

1) It's not "instead of a fighter", it's "in addition to a fighter". More actions are more better.

2) There's less of a moral/social obligation to raise it if it dies; you can get another one.

[Urpriest]

2) There's less of a moral/social obligation to raise it if it dies; you can get another one.

Not really relevant in E6, nobody's coming back from the dead barring special quests anyway.

[Fluffy_1.0]

I'm all about my players having fun and if the fighter would be out shown by a class ability I wouldn't allow the feats that made it happen because it would hinder his/her enjoyment of the game.

[Vladislav]

I'm all about my players having fun and if the fighter would be out shown by a class ability I wouldn't allow the feats that made it happen because it would hinder his/her enjoyment of the game.Or, you could politely suggest to the player to play a ToB class or a Duskblade instead of a fighter.

(Although I do admit that 10 HD might be a bit too much even then).

[Lonely Tylenol]

Druid 5/Beastmaster 1 allows a Lion (or Brown Bear) companion advanced twice. That's 9 HD (or 10).
And you're still a level 5 Druid in addition (3rd level spells and wildshape). That's pretty swanky in E6, if you ask me.


Druid 5: effective druid level 5
Add Beastmaster 1: effective druid level 9 (yes, Beastmaster allows you to take your effective druid level above your HD)
Get a Lion companion: -6 effective druid level, for 3 (advanced once)
Take Natural Bond: +3 effective druid level, for 6 (advanced twice)

Cool.

How would this interact with a Wild Cohort? For example, a Druid gives up their animal companion for an ACF (Druidic Avenger, for instance), and does the same build with the Wild Cohort feat in addition to everything else. Their Druid level is treated as L-3 for the purpose of picking alternate companions, which I'm reading is in addition to the standard level reduction (so to grab a black bear, you would be L-6). Am I reading this right? Would that mean one could grab a lion companion, but only give it one advancement (and that advancement is on the Wild Cohort track), or would it get two? Or does Wild Cohort not interact with the Beastmaster in any conceivable way?

[Vladislav]

IIRC, the Beastmaster PrC doesn't interact with Wild Cohort at all. If you didn't have an animal companion before, the first level of Beastmaster gives you an animal companion, and applies the +3 effective Druid level bonus to that companion.

Cohort != Companion.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Don't forget about the Warbeast template in MM2, it can be added to any non-war-version animal (companion) to give it another +1 HD and a few other benefits. Note that a war-trained Riding Dog gains Trip, but it does not have a separate set of war-version stats, and you can always war-train one after making it a Warbeast anyway.


Wild Cohort specifies that what it grants and an Animal Companion class feature are to be tracked separately, thus your effective level in one will not stack with or otherwise affect any effective levels in the other. However, if a given animal is an animal companion it is not automatically excluded from also being a wild cohort, and vice versa. You're specifically given an animal cohort in addition to your separate animal companion, but there's nothing prohibiting you from dismissing both and gaining a new companion which benefits from both.


Consider the wording of when you can obtain a given 'level -X' companion:
"A druid of 4th level or higher may select from alternative lists of animals. Should she select an animal companion from one of these alternative lists, the creature gains abilities as if the character’s druid level were lower than it actually is. Subtract the value indicated in the appropriate list header from the character’s druid level and compare the result with the druid level entry on the table to determine the animal companion’s powers. (If this adjustment would reduce the druid’s effective level to 0 or lower, she can’t have that animal as a companion.)"

That text trumps the 'minimum level' headers from the alternative animal companion table. The only two requirements for you to obtain a given creature as your companion are that you be a druid of 4th level or higher, and that your adjusted effective level for its benefits is above zero. The headers on the table are only for a convenient fast reference, presuming you have no considerations but your actual Druid class level. For example, a Druid 4 with Natural Bond attempts to obtain a 'level -6' companion. He's met the first requirement, and all things considered (4th level, -6=-2, +3=1) his adjusted effective level for its benefits is 1, which is above zero. That means a Druid 5/ Beastmaster 1 with Natural Bond could even get a 'level -9' companion, with which he would count as a Druid 3 for its benefits.


Note that the text for obtaining a Wild Cohort from a higher level list only takes those quick-reference minimum level headers into consideration, rather than a qualification based on a calculation of effective level. Thus you would have to somehow count as a 7th level character for a 'level -3' animal to benefit from being your Wild Cohort. For that reason, a 1st level companion such as a Riding Dog would probably be your best choice, as it can gain extra HD and other benefits from two different sources.


A Druid 5/ Beastmaster 1 with Wild Cohort can have a 12 HD Warbeast Riding Dog. The Dire Eagle from Races of Stone is a 5 HD animal that can be obtained as a 'level -3' animal companion. (The text from RoS stating 'three levels lower' trumps the table in PH2 listing it at 'level -6'.) A Druid 5/ Beastmaster 1 with Natural Bond will have a 12 HD Warbeast Dire Eagle. Keeping the above in mind about obtaining a 'level -9' companion, a Druid 5/ Beastmaster 1 with Natural Bond could even have a 14 HD Warbeast Giant Constrictor Snake, or a 12 HD Warbeast Saber-Toothed Tiger.


If you include some Bloodline shenanigans, it gets completely crazy. Going with the E6 standard of 5k xp per extra feat/virtual level, if you spend just one virtual level's worth of xp you can gain five bloodline levels before gaining your second character level. At Druid 5/ Beastmaster 1 with five bloodline levels, you'll count as a Druid 10/ Beastmaster 6 for an effective Druid level of 19 for your Animal Companion's benefits. Take Exalted Companion and you can get a 15 HD Celestial Dire Eagle which has Sacred Vow and Vow of Poverty, for 15th level VoP benefits on it for absolutely no loot-cost to yourself.

[Vladislav]

I am in awe.