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DracoDei
2012-06-25, 04:17 PM
Wikipedia-like Cross-indexing:
The Protector-A class very much like this class in high-level concept, but with a very different execution.
T.G. Oskar's Retooled Marshall
Warlord II (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=310451) - by Nonsi
The Fanatic - Seems to be just about the diametrical opposite of this class, both in stereotypical attitude, and in terms of class abilities.

This class got too big for its old thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229090) so I am redoing it in a new thread spread over a ridiculous number of posts. For the moment my development notes may be included in the body of the text and I may only update the main table rather than the alternate tables when adding new abilities.

The Grace-Gift
INDEX
Post 1 - Class Introduction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454489#post13454489)

Index & Cross-Index
Intent
A Warning to the GM
Important Notes for Players
Introductory Fluff
Post 2 - Class Description (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454506#post13454506)

Adventures, Characteristics & Alignment
Religion, Background, Races, Other Classes & Role
Abilities
Code of Conduct
Grace-Gifts and Prestige Classes
Post 3 - Class Attributes and Tables (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454511#post13454511)

Alignment
Hit Points, Skills, Armor & Weapon Proficiencies
Class Progression Tables
Post 4 - Class Features (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454543#post13454543)

A General Rule on Spellcasting and Spell-like Abilities
Class Ability Descriptions
Post 5 - Class Feats, Part 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454553#post13454553)

Feat List
Feat Descriptions

Post 6 - Class Feats, Part 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454563#post13454563)

Feat Descriptions

Post 7 - Suggestions for Game Play (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454600#post13454600)

Racial Suggestions
Ability Importance
Suggestions on Class Attributes and Features
Post 8 - Partial Change Log (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454612#post13454612)

Partial Change Log

Post 9 - Notes for Future Development 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454617#post13454617)
Post 10 - Notes for Future Development 2/Room to grow (Empty) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454627#post13454627)

INTENT
This is my attempt to create a class that is completely defensive in nature. So much so that half their tactical concern in battle is simply to stay alive.

I realize that this is a very dipable class, but it also should be good for going deeper. I haven't figured out where all the abilities go, but I thought I should request comments before I add anything more. I realize it has a lot of options, but that is intentional, so as to prevent a situation where the class can't do anything because the threat doesn't happen to match up with any of the defenses they can grant. Sort-of like the original reason clerics were given everything on their class list instead of being limited to a smaller number of spells known... although I doubt I have created another CoDzilla, since, by himself, this guy has no offense. I might drop some abilities, but the all seem so flavorful to me (yes, even the ones that just transfer some sort of numeric bonus) and none of them are likely to be overpowered by themselves. Since most of them are mutually exclusive, and all of them are defensive (mostly of OTHERS, thus avoiding a one-character show), I don't think it will make any other character class obsolete. Considering an ability to take negative effects away from allies into themselves... would synergize well with a party member who can cast Heal, but not perhaps not Heal, Mass.

In several cases I have gone a bit out of my way to make it so a Grace-Gift with a charisma of even 4 or something ridiculously low like that is still effective, at least as a village healer. The NPCs of the world thank me.

Brief warning to GMs:
Think VERY carefully before allowing this class as a Cohort or anything like that. It is pretty exploitable in that role. It also may Gestalt a bit TOO well with sorcerer or other "squishy" classes. I also suspect that it is broken with Vow of Peace, but since I have only briefly read the vows, I don't know for sure.

Important notes to players:
This class is probably stronger than it looks at first glance, but it may require a close reading to see that power. At the same time, it is probably more possible than with most classes to get yourself into a "dead end". Not all the bonus feats are created equal (but then again, things that are poor options for any other class may prove useful for this one). Read ahead a few levels from where you are actually working when building or leveling up a Grace-Gift. Along with everything else, I have been working on a "Suggestions for Playing a Grace-Gift" section at the end, covering both character design and equipping suggestions, as well as my best guesses on how to actually play one effectively when in "exploring" or "combat" modes.

Introductory Fluff
ďWhatever grace is given me, let it pass to him." -Galadriel

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13, King James Bible.

"Pay it Forward."

Many are the gifts the gods and other powers grant. The cleric, the paladin, the favored soul, the warlock and many others are each given a different sort of gift, usually in exchange for their service. But none are called to give their gifts away in quite as personal a way as the grace-gift. Most of the blessings that the grace-gift are entrusted with to pass along to his fellows are invisible to the untrained observer. Those with skill in the arts of war may notice that the grace-gift strikes a little harder when a foe tries to move past them to get at those they protect. Those with knowledge of spells may discern the import of gestures that the grace-gift make. Those with sharp eyes may note the companions of such an individual seem to be blessed with the ability to escape danger, while the grace-gift themselves seems as hapless as a untrained man. Even the correlation between the wounds opening on the grace-gift when their companions are struck in oddly mild ways, or the tendency of the grace-gift to collapse to the ground even as their allies take to the sky may escape most. So also, their tendency to go oddly still at the very moments that their allies move with amazing speed can be easy to miss. Grace-gifts have been known to enter into stories and legends as burdens that great heroes chose to shepherd through danger. Nothing could be further from the truth; a true grace-gift is NEVER a burden. If they literally become the unsung hero it is because of the inability of the collective consciousness to retain fiddling details, the arrogance of their compatriots, or their own humility (or desire to play upon the first aspect to retain a tactical edge over the foes they face with their companions).

DracoDei
2012-06-25, 04:20 PM
Adventures: Grace-gifts adventure to protect. Some protect out of altruism, others to maintain order (possibly including the sort of order than claims that the weak should never be given equal footing with the strong). Those who follow gods of specific races often are motivated by desire to protect those races, both as a whole, and individuals of that race.

Characteristics: Grace-gifts are granted great protection (grace) by the god or force that has chosen them. While an inexperienced grace-gift might be easy to strike in combat, they will be less likely to be mortally wounded than almost any other character of equal power. It is the "gifting" part of their name that truly sets them apart as they extend the grace granted to them to those nearby. From nursing a sick child rapidly back to health, even as they themselves are likely to catch the disease in question, to taking on the very weight of gravity in the stead of a brave comrade, a grace-gift takes the concept of "a friend in need is a friend indeed" to whole new heights.

Alignment: The desire to protect that goes hand-in-hand with the powers of a grace-gift requires either altruism, or, more rarely, a dedication to order, but without altruism. Thus most grace-gifts are Good of some variety or another, and the remainder are Lawful.

Religion: Grace-gifts are as religious as paladins, and they tend to follow gods with the Good, Law, and/or Protection domains.

Background: The background of the grace-gift is much like that of the paladin, with the exception that they require no especial training, and thus often lack mentors or masters before they become settled into their powers(AKA reach first level). Many NPC grace-gifts find service as healers, tending to the sick, others enter into service as bodyguards, in some cases only starting their study of more advanced weapon-work (AKA taking a weapon proficiency feat in a martial or exotic weapon or cross-classing into a fighting class) after they have started their duties. While lacking in much ability to deter harm or slay attackers, they make up for it with their ability to protect against poisons simply by sitting beside their charge as they eat and drink gesturing frequently.

Races: Grace-gifts vary from race to race only in-as-much as the alignments that they live by do.

Other Classes: Paladins, and clerics of compatible alignments get along very well indeed with grace-gifts. If a grace-gift supports a person (or at least their actions at the moment) they will go to great lengths to aid them. Almost any other class can gain strength when supported by a grace-gift, and that is enough for the grace-gift. Few are ungrateful for such aid. In return grace-gift truly appreciates help in return, especially help that lets them endanger themselves less when they share their own blessings. The wizard who provides a Mage Armor, or cleric with Shield of Faith, thus allowing the grace-gift to grant whoever needs it at the moment their own ability to turn aside attacks is appreciated, as is the sorcerer who casts fly on a physically strong grace-gift so that the grace-gift can keep up when he bears both the sorcerer and the gnomish bard aloft. Of course, everyone loves the cleric when he is healing them, but when the wound is one literally taken for a mutual friend, the bond only grows the deeper.

Role: Grace-gifts serve much the same defensive roles as the buffing ability of a wizard, cleric, or defensively specialized fighter(this last, obviously, doesn't involve much buffing). A lot of their abilities are mutual exclusive, but this simply means that they can change roles from round to round as needed.[/SPOILER]

Abilities: Charisma is important for many grace-gift abilities. Strength helps out with the attacks of opportunity that are the only thing approaching offense that grace-gifts are skilled with (and they are QUITE good at them at later levels). Strength is also vital to good use of the Carry the Burden ability, which allows you to lift your allies into the air by accepting the burden of gravity in their stead. Constitution helps with your Gift of Tolerance and Gift of Breath abilities, although, depending on circumstances, you might not need a LOT of it. Dexterity and Constitution are important because you have few protections against weapons (especially initially), and what defenses you DO have, you often will want to give away from time to time. You will also be loaning others the benefits of your base saving throws, so, together with Wisdom, these will ensure that you can survive doing so (but their benefits in this second regard are strictly secondary to charisma once you move beyond your initial array of abilities and gain the Divine Grace class feature).

Code of Conduct
Committing individual Chaotic or Evil acts has no effect on a grace-gift in and of itself, but they must dedicate themselves to either Good or Law. This choice is made upon gaining their first level in this class, and can not be changed. If they ever are not of the selected alignment they lose all grace-gift abilities with the exception of weapon and armor proficiencies and bonus feats. However, any feats with the [Grace-Gift] tag cease to provide any benefit regardless of if they were taken as grace-gift bonus feats. Their base saving throw bonuses from this class are also all reduced to 0. They may not progress any farther in levels as a grace-gift. They regains their abilities, saves, [Grace-Gift] bonus feat functionality and advancement potential if they returns to an acceptable alignment and then atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Grace-Gifts and Prestige Classes
Grace-Gifts benefit in a specific way from prestige classes that have "+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class" or "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" as a level advancement benefit. A grace-gift taking levels in such a prestige class does not gain any of his daily or strictly passive abilities. However they do gain abilities that require an action to use, even if they also have a passive component, as if they had gained a level of grace-gift and an increased caster level when using grace-gift abilities. This also applies to new versions of old abilities, provided that at no level are they limited to a certain number of times per day. Thus a 4th level grace-gift who takes a level of a prestige class that advances their divine caster level would not gain unlimited uses per day of their An Ounce of Prevention ability from that prestige class, but could gain Gift of Soul and improved versions of Gift of Resistance.

A grace-gift CAN qualify for prestige classes with spellcasting level requirements, since many of his abilities have equivalent spell levels.

DracoDei
2012-06-25, 04:21 PM
Main Table, Auxiliary Tables, Skills, Hit-Points, and Armor and Weapon Proficiencies.

Alignment: Any Good and/or Any Lawful

Starting Gold: 6d4 x 5 gp (75 gp on average)
Starting Age: As per fighter.

Hit-die
d12

Class Skills:
The class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Balance(Dex), Climb(Str), Concentration(Con), Craft(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Heal(Wis), Jump(Str), Knowledge[Local] (Int), Knowledge[Nobility and Royalty] (Int), Knowledge[Religion] (Int), Profession(Wis), Ride(Dex), Sense Motive(Wis), Speak Language(N/A), Spellcraft(Int), Survival(Wis), Swim(Str), Tumble(Dex), Use Rope(Dex)

Skill Points at 1st Level
(6 + Int modifier) ◊4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
6 + Int modifier.

I recognize that this is a wall of text, but my efforts to simplify it in a meaningful way have run into some problems. I've gotten some suggestion, but I'm not sure that they work out well in practice, never-the-less I shall be working on repairing the other tables from the forum update, when I have a block of time where I can be confident of not messing things up even worse.




Saves



Level
BAB
Fortitude
Reflex
Will
Special


1st

+0

+2

+2

+2
Aura, Divine Protection(Deflection), Healing Item Use, Least Gifts, Swift to Protect, Defensive Strike (Damage Bonus), Bonus Feat(I), Life Saver(Stabilize, Long-term Care, Treat Bleeding Wound, Treat caltrop-etc wound)



2nd
+1

+3

+3

+3
Divine Grace, Bonus Feat(I), Helpful, Master of the Healing-ward



3rd
+1

+3

+3

+3
Defensive Strike(To-hit), Bonus Feat(I or II), Status 1/day, Courage, Carry the Burden(1 ally, levitate), Enhanced Defensive Strike(Magic), Hands of the Healer(Treat Blindness/Deafness, Ability Score Penalties)


4th
+2

+4

+4

+4
Bonus Feat(I or II), Life Saver(Treat Poison and Disease), Gift of Resistance(Penalty to 2 Save Types), Gift of Time(+20' movement)


5th
+2

+4

+4

+4
An Ounce of Prevention(At-Will), Carry the Burden(1 ally, fly), Gift of Breath, Gift of Protection (20' range), Gift of Soul, Helping Hand 1/day


6th
+3

+5

+5

+5
Defensive Strike(Class level x 1.5 damage), Gift of Time(Move Action), Hands of the Healer(Treat Ability Drain, Negative Levels, Level Drain)


7th
+3

+5

+5

+5
Bonus Feat(I to IV), Carry the Burden(2 allies), Enhanced Defensive Strike(1 alignment, Ghost-Touch, or Vicious), Gift of Resistance(Penalty to 1 Save Type)


8th
+4

+6

+6

+6
Divine Protection(15' Radius), Gift of Time (20' range), Status 2/day


9th
+4

+6

+6

+6
Bonus Feat(I to V), Gift of Life(Raise Dead), Gift of Resistance(Boost Multiple Saves)



10th
+5

+7

+7

+3
Carry the Burden(3 allies), Defensive Strike(Class level x 2 damage), Gift of Shielding (Swift or Standard Action), Gift of Time(Only Requires a Full-Round action)



11th
+5

+7

+7

+7
Bonus Feat(I to VI), Enhanced Defensive Strike(Adamantine), Hands of the Healer(remove drained levels up to 1 week/grace-gift level), Shield of the Soul



12th
+6/+1

+8

+8

+8
Divine Protection(Sacred/Profane), Gift of Time (30' range), Helping Hand 2/day


13th
+6/+1

+8

+8

+8
Gift of Life(Resurrection), Hands of the Healer(Take 10), Matchless Loyalty, Mobile Defender


14th
+7/+2

+9

+9

+9
Bonus Feat(I to VII), Carry the Burden(4 allies), Gift of Protection(30' range for single target), Status At-Will


15th
+7/+2

+9

+9

+9
Enhanced Defensive Strike(2 alignments, Ghost-Touch, and/or Vicious), Gift of Shielding (Immediate, Swift or Standard Action), Gift of Time(Grant Swift, Standard, OR Move Action)


16th
+8/+3

+10

+10

+10
Defensive Strike(Class level x 3 damage), Shield of the Soul(Area)


17th
+8/+3

+10

+10

+10
Bonus Feat(I to IX), Carry the Burden(5 allies), Gift of Foresight, Gift of Life(True Resurrection)


18th
+9/+4

+11

+11

+11
Divine Protection(Insight), Gift of Time (40' range)


19th
+9/+4

+11

+11

+11
Bonus Feat(I to IX), Shield of the Soul (class level+10)


20th
+10/+5

+12

+12

+12
Gift of Time(Give Move+Standard action), Gift of Resistance(Half Penalties)



Weapon and Armor Proficiency
The Grace-gift is proficient with one type of simple melee weapon OR with one type of melee weapon that naturally deals subdual damage(such as a whip or sap, or one-handed/two-handed versions of a sap) OR with nets*. They are also proficient with Bolas, but ONLY when making trip attacks with them rather than attempting to deal damage.
*Due to the way I hear that Pathfinders rules allow AoOs to be used for tripping and grappling, selecting this option requires expending the first level bonus feat to select in Pathfinder.

If they pick "unarmed strike", then they gain the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for free.

If they pick nets, then, for purpose of threatened areas for attacks of opportunity they treat nets as a melee weapon with reach. Thus they can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe. They do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making an attack of opportunity of their own with a net. They use the better of their strength and dexterity modifiers when calculating their to-hit with such attacks.

They are proficient with light armor but not with shields.

Because the somatic components for a grace-gift's spell-like abilities are simpler than those used by wizards and sorcerers, a grace-gift can use those abilities while either unarmored or wearing light armor without needing to roll for arcane spell failure. However, like almost all arcane spell casters (and despite the fact that they themselves are divine spellcasters), a grace-gift wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of spell failure (all their spell-like abilities, have somatic components unless otherwise noted). A multi-class grace-gift still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from levels in other classes.

Base Attack Bonus, Saves, Bonus Feats and Passive and/or Strictly Out of Combat Abilities(Work in Progress)
{table=head]Level[/TH]Base Attack Bonus[/td]Fort SaveRef SaveWill SaveSpecial

1st
+0

+2

+2

+2
An Ounce of Prevention (1/level), Aura, Bonus Feat (I), Defensive Strike(Damage)

2nd
+1

+3

+3

+3
Defensive Strike(To-hit), Divine Grace, Bonus Feat(I), Master of the Healing-ward

3rd
+1

+3

+3

+3
Bonus Feat(I or II), Courage, Enhanced Defensive Strike(Magic), Hands of the Healer(Treat Blindness/Deafness, Ability Score Penalties), Status 1/day

4th
+2

+4

+4

+4
Bonus Feat(I or II), Life Saver(Treat Poison and Disease)

5th
+2

+4

+4

+4
An Ounce of Prevention (At-Will), Gift of Soul, Helping Hand 1/day

6th
+3

+5

+5

+5
Defensive Strike(Class level x 1.5 damage), Hands of the Healer(Treat Ability Drain, Negative Levels, Level Drain)

7th
+3

+5

+5

+5
Enhanced Defensive Strike(1 alignment, Ghost-Touch, or Vicious)

8th
+4

+6

+6

+6
Status 2/day

9th
+4

+6

+6

+6
Bonus Feat(I to V), Gift of Life(Raise Dead)

10th
+5

+7

+7

+3
Defensive Strike(Class level x 2 damage)

11th
+5

+7

+7

+7
Bonus Feat(I to VI)(, Enhanced Defensive Strike(Adamantine), Hands of the Healer(remove drained levels up to 1 week/grace-gift level)

12th
+6/+1

+8

+8

+8
Helping Hand 2/day

13th
+6/+1

+8

+8

+8
Gift of Life(Resurrection), Hands of the Healer(Take 10), Matchless Loyalty

14th
+7/+2

+9

+9

+9
Bonus Feat(I to VII), Status At-Will

15th
+7/+2

+9

+9

+9
Enhanced Defensive Strike(2 alignments, Ghost-Touch, and/or Vicious)

16th
+8/+3

+10

+10

+10
Defensive Strike(Class level x 3 damage)

17th
+8/+3

+10

+10

+10
Bonus Feat(I to IX), Gift of Life(True Resurrection)

18th
+9/+4

+11

+11

+11
-

19th
+9/+4

+11

+11

+11
Bonus Feat(I to IX)

20th
+10/+5

+12

+12

+12
-[/table]

Active and/or In Combat Abilities((Needs updating))
{table=head]LevelSpecial

1stDivine Protection(Deflection), Gift of Resistance(Penalty to all Saves), Gift of Shielding, Gift of Tolerance, Swift to Protect, Life Saver(Stabilize, Long-term Care, Treat Bleeding Wound, Treat caltrop-etc wound)

2ndHelpful

3rdCarry the Burden(1 ally, levitate)

4thLife Saver(Treat Poison and Disease), Gift of Resistance(Penalty to 2 Save Types), Gift of Time(+20' movement)

5thCarry the Burden(1 ally, fly), Gift of Breath

6thGift of Time(Move Action)

7thCarry the Burden(2 allies), Gift of Resistance(Penalty to 1 Save Type)

8thDivine Protection(15' Radius), Gift of Time (20' range)

9thGift of Resistance(Boost Multiple Saves)

10thCarry the Burden(3 allies), Gift of Shielding (Swift or Standard Action), Gift of Time(Only Requires a Full-Round action)

11thShield of the Soul

12thDivine Protection(Sacred/Profane), Gift of Time (30' range)

13thMobile Defender

14thCarry the Burden(4 allies)

15thGift of Shielding (Immediate, Swift or Standard Action), Gift of Time(Grant Swift, Standard, OR Move Action)

16thShield of the Soul(Area)

17thCarry the Burden(5 allies), Gift of Foresight

18thDivine Protection(Insight), Gift of Time (40' range)

19thShield of the Soul (class level+10)

20thGift of Time(Give Move+Standard action), Gift of Resistance(Half Penalties)
[/table]

COMPLETELY New Abilities by Level, Without Details on Upgrades/Sub-abilities Available(But includes all bonus-feat gains, even if they are for a degree (I to IX) that you already gained)
{table=head]LevelSpecial

1st Aura, Bonus Feat, Defensive Strike, Divine Protection, Life Saver, Swift to Protect, Least Gifts[An Ounce of Prevention (1/level), Carry the Burden, Gift of Protection, Gift of Resistance, Gift of Shielding, Gift of Tolerance]

2ndDivine Grace, Bonus Feat, Helpful, Master of the Healing-ward

3rdBonus Feat, Status, Courage, Enhanced Defensive Strike, Hands of the Healer

4thBonus Feat, Gift of Time(+20' movement)

5thGift of Breath, Gift of Soul, Helping Hand

6th-

7thBonus Feat

8th-

9thBonus Feat(I to V), Gift of Life

10th-

11thBonus Feat(I to VI), Shield of the Soul

12th-

13thMatchless Loyalty, Mobile Defender

14thBonus Feat

15th-

16th-

17thBonus Feat, Gift of Foresight

18th-

19thBonus Feat

20th
[/table]


Divine Protection: AC Bonus Table
{table=head]LevelAC Bonus magnitude
AC Bonus Type Options

1st
Cha. Bonus

Deflection

2nd
Cha. Bonus

Deflection

3rd
Cha. Bonus

Deflection

4th
Cha. Bonus

Deflection

5th
Cha. Bonus+1

Deflection

6th
Cha. Bonus+1

Deflection

7th
Cha. Bonus+1

Deflection

8th
Cha. Bonus+1

Deflection

9th
Cha. Bonus+1

Deflection

10th
Cha. Bonus+2

Deflection

11th
Cha. Bonus+2

Deflection

12th
Cha. Bonus+2

Deflection, Sacred/Profane

13th
Cha. Bonus+2

Deflection, Sacred/Profane

14th
Cha. Bonus+2

Deflection, Sacred/Profane

15th
Cha. Bonus+3

Deflection, Sacred/Profane

16th
Cha. Bonus+3

Deflection, Sacred/Profane

17th
Cha. Bonus+3

Deflection, Sacred/Profane

18th
Cha. Bonus+3

Deflection, Sacred/Profane, Insight


19th
Cha. Bonus+3

Deflection, Sacred/Profane, Insight

20th
Cha. Bonus+4

Deflection, Sacred/Profane, Insight
[/table]


Defensive Strike and Improved Defensive Strike
{table=head]LevelAlternate Attack Bonus*Damage Bonus Damage Reduction etc. Bypassed
1st
+0

+1

-

2nd
+2

+2

-

3rd
+3

+3

Magic

4th
+4

+4

Magic

5th
+5

+5

Magic

6th
+6

+9

Magic

7th
+7

+10

Magic + 1 Option

8th
+8

+12

Magic + 1 Option

9th
+9

+13

Magic + 1 Option

10th
+10

+20

Magic + 1 Option

11th
+11

+22

Adamantine + Magic + 1 Option

12th
+12

+24

Adamantine + Magic + 1 Option

13th
+13

+26

Adamantine + Magic + 1 Option

14th
+14

+28

Adamantine + Magic + 1 Option

15th
+15

+30

Adamantine + Magic + 2 Options

16th
+16

+48

Adamantine + Magic + 2 Options

17th
+17

+51

Adamantine + Magic + 2 Options

18th
+18

+54

Adamantine + Magic + 2 Options


19th
+19

+57

Adamantine + Magic + 2 Options

20th
+20

+60

Adamantine + Magic + 2 Options
[/table]
*Don't forget to add your Charisma Bonus to-hit!

Carry the Burden Range


Lvl
Charisma Bonus


[th="width:20"]~+1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9
+10

+11

+12


[td]
1
5

10

15

20

25

30

35

40

45

50

55

60



2
10

20

30

40

50

60

70

80

90

100

110

120



3

15

30

45

60

75

90
105120135
150

165

180



4

20

40

60

80
100120140160180
200

220

240



5

25

50

75
100125150175200225
250

275

300



6

30

60

90
120150180210240270
300

330

360



7

35

70
105140175210245280315
350

385

420



8

40

80
120160200240280320360
400

440

480



9

45

90
135180225270315360405
450

495

540



10
50
100150200250300350400450
500

550

600



11
55
110165220275330385440495
550

605

660



12
60
120180240300360420480540
600

660

720



13
65
130195260325390455520585
650

715

780



14
70
140210280350420490560630
700

770

840



15
75
150225300375450525600675
750

825

900



16
80
160240320400480560640720
800

880

960



17
85
170255340425510595680765
850

935
1,020



18
90
180270360450540630720810
900

990
1,080



19
95
190285380475570665760855
950
1,0451,140



201002003004005006007008009001,0001,1001,200





Table formatting suggestions (that turned into class tweak ideas and non-mechanic changing rewrites of ability descriptions) from Kane0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=63836)

Hmm, if you don't mind me reworking things a bit, It might end up a lot more streamlined if you take it back from the ground up:

A general rule can be posted in the thread as a note or spoiler, it isn't really a class ability.

Aura is good as is.

Bonus feats are good as is.

Your three gifts could easily be combined since they are all of the same level. Give a bonus to X (AC, Saves, Resistances) at a penalty to your own Y(AC, Saves, CON), with similar restrictions and improvements placed on all of them. This would save you space and would simplify the abilities.

Swift to protect could probably be simplified to be a bonus to Init, but thats up to you.

Defensive strike is fine as is.

Life saver is fine as is.

Divine Protection and Divine Grace could easily be combined.

Helpful could probably be changed to grant +4 instead of +2, or taking 10 on any aid another action. Either way (or a choice if you want)

Master of the Heaing Ward could be incorporated into Life Saver

Courage is fine as is.

Carry the burden is fine as is.

Enhanced Defensive strike is fine as is.

Hands of the Healer could be incorporated into Life Saver

Gifts of time, breath, soul and life are good as is.

Shield of the Soul is good as is.

Im a little iffy about the Mobile Defender ability since it is reliant on a feat that is not automatically granted. No matter how good the feat is for the class it isnt usually good practice to assume the character would have it and thus benefit from the ability.

Matchless loyalty and gift of foresight are good as is.


Just an outline suggestion, the changes are up to you of course. The more abilities you can streamline and reduce in the table to be explained in the ability description the better.

Ill be looking a bit more later on, but this is all i can do for now.


Also roughly threw together a new table for your abilities based on what I suggested. The only change in the level these abilities are granted is that Divine Grace is level 2 to match divine protection (all one ability now)

1 Aura, Gift (AC, Saves, Resistance) Swift to Protect, Defensive Strike (Damage), Bonus Feat, Life Saver (Treatment)
2 Divine Protection, Bonus Feat, Helpful, Life Saver (Multiple Patients)
3 Defensive Strike (Attack), Bonus Feat, Status, Courage, Carry the Burden (levitate), Emhanced Defensive Strike (Magic), Life Saver (Blind/Deaf, Ability Damage)
4 Bonus Feat, Life Saver (Poison, Disease), Gift (Time, Resistance: Two saves)
5 Carry the Burden (Fly), Gift (Breath, Soul), Helping Hand 1/day
6 Defensive Strike (1.5 damage), Gift (Time: Move), Life Saver (Ability/Level Drain)
7 Carry the Burden (2 allies), Enhanced Defensive Strike (alignment), Gift (Resistance: one save)
8 Divine Protection (15ft), Gift (Time: 20ft), Status 2/day
9 Bonus Feat, Gift (Life: Raise Dead, Resistance: Multiple Saves)
10 Carry the Burden (3 Allies), Defensive Strike (x2 damage), Gift (AC: Swift or Standard Action, Time: Full round)
11 Bonus Feat, Enhanced Defensive Strike(Adamantine), Life Saver (Level Drain time period), Shield of the Soul
12 Divine Protection(Sacred/Profane), Gift (Time: 30ft), Helping Hand 2/day
13 Gift (Life: Resurrection), Life Saver (Take 10), Matchless Loyalty, Mobile Defender
14 Carry the Burden (4 allies), Bonus Feat, Status At-Will
15 Enhanced Defensive Strike(2 alignments), Gift (AC: Immediate, Swift or Standard Action, Time: Swift, Standard, or Move Action)
16 Defensive Strike(x3 damage), Shield of the Soul (Area)
17 Bonus Feat, Carry the Burden (5 allies), Gift (Foresight, Life: True Resurrection)
18 Divine Protection (Insight), Gift (Time: 40ft)
19 Bonus Feat, Shield of the Soul (class level+10)
20 Gift (Time: Grant Move & Standard action, Resistance: Half Penalties)


Hope this helps
Epic Progression



Defensive Strike
Defensive Strike



Level
AC Bonus
Alternate Attack Bonus*
Damage Bonus
Special

21st Cha. Bonus+4 +21 +63
22nd Cha. Bonus+4 +21 +66
23rd Cha. Bonus+4 +22 +69 Bonus Feat(I to IX, or Epic)
24th Cha. Bonus+4 +22 +72
25th Cha. Bonus+5 +23 +75
26th Cha. Bonus+5 +23 +78 Bonus Feat(I to IX, or Epic)
27th Cha. Bonus+5 +24 +81
28th Cha. Bonus+5 +24 +84
29th Cha. Bonus+5 +25 +87 Bonus Feat(I to IX, or Epic)
30th Cha. Bonus+6 +25 +90
31st Cha. Bonus+6 +26 +93
32nd Cha. Bonus+6 +26 +96 Bonus Feat(I to IX, or Epic)
33rd Cha. Bonus+6 +27 +99
34th Cha. Bonus+6 +27 +102
35th Cha. Bonus+7 +28 +105 Bonus Feat(I to IX, or Epic)
36th Cha. Bonus+7 +28 +108
37th Cha. Bonus+7 +29 +111
38th Cha. Bonus+7 +29 +114 Bonus Feat(I to IX, or Epic)

*Don't forget to add your Charisma Bonus to-hit!

DracoDei
2012-06-25, 04:27 PM
Spellcasting and Supernatural Abilities: Unless otherwise noted, all spell-like and supernatural ability of this class that require an action (even a free action) to use are divine (opposed to arcane), have somatic components, and qualify as divine versions of the spells they duplicate for purposes of qualifying for prestige classes, feats, etc and can be modified as such as if they were both a spell and a spell-like ability by class features, feats (but noting that grace-gifts lack spells per day that can be sacrificed to power basic metamagic feats with level adjustments higher than +0), and items (such as Rod of Maximize).

If an ability has both continuous(unless transferred, or simply continuous) functions and ones that require an action to use, then the above applies only to the portions of the abilities that requires actions.

Despite the divine nature of their abilities they incur an arcane spell-failure chance if used with medium or heavy armor and/or a shield for actively using almost all of their class abilities. The grace-gift's active class abilities lack verbal components unless based on a spell with verbal components. The grace-gift's caster level is equal to his class level and his saving throws (on the rare occasions someone attempts a save against one of his abilities) are equal to 10 + the (equivalent) spell level of the effect + their charisma modifier. They do not require any particular charisma score to cast their spells... beyond the single point any creature requires to perform actions.

Class Abilities

Aura(Ex): Aura: A Grace-Gift has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to their chosen alignment(s) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#alignment) (see the detect evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm) spell for details). For example a chaotic good grace-gift has powerful auras of good and chaos, while a neutral good grace-gift has only a powerful aura of good and a lawful neutral grace-gift has only a powerful aura of law. These auras otherwise function like a cleric's aura.

Bonus Feats:
At various levels the grace-gift gains a bonus feat from the following lists. When taken in this way they do not need to meet the character level, ability score, base attack, maneuver/stance knowledge, or saving throw prerequisites of that feat. Prerequisites that take the form of other feats are required only for feats that are also on one of these lists. ?Also, the Improved Unarmed Strike feat is never required.? For example: the Improved Blocker feat requires the Combat Reflexes and Blocker feats, but, if taken in this manner does not require a +10 BAB, nor the Combat Expertise feat. They DO have to meet any class level requirements. For the bonus feats granted at first and second class levels only feats from List I may be selected.

At later levels access to more lists is granted as follows:
3rd and 4th: I or II.
7th: I to IV.
9th: I to V.
11th: I to VI.
13th: I to VII.
17th & 19th: Any non-epic list.

List I:

Blind-fight
Burden Bearer*
Combat Casting
Combat Reflexes(Special: A grace-gift who takes this feat as a grace-gift bonus feat may substitute Charisma for Dexterity for the purposes of determining how many attacks of opportunity he may make per round)
Deflect Arrows(Only if 1st level melee weapon proficiency was "Unarmed Strike")
Devoted Bulwark(ToB)
Die Hard
Disease Resistance
Gift of Protection, Improved*
Diving Evasion(Requires 1 Rank of Tumble.)
Dodge
Endurance
Evasive Reflexes(ToB)
Force of Will (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#forceOfWill)(Requires Iron Will.)
Great Fortitude
Hold the Line (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#holdTheLine)
Hostile Mind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#hostileMind)
Improved Toughness
Iron Heart Aura (ToB)
Iron Will
Lightning Reflexes
Mental Resistance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#mentalResistance)
Mobility(Requires Dodge.)
Mind Over Body (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#mindOverBody)
Obscured Casting
?Open Minded? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#openMinded)
Plague Bane*
Poison Resistance
Protecting Paladin*
Psionic Hole (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicHole)
Rapid Metabolism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#rapidMetabolism)
Self-Sufficient
Sidestep Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#sidestepCharge)(Requires Dodge. Special: If taken as a Grace-Gift bonus feat the bonuses to Defensive Strike/Enhanced Defense Strike do NOT apply to this attack.)
Skill Focus(Concentration)
Skill Focus(Heal)
Skill Focus(Tumble)
Shielded Defender
Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill)
Stoic Defender*
Stone Power(ToB)
Touch of the Grace-Gift*
Up the Walls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#upTheWalls)(Requires you to either have a power point reserve or have psi-like abilities.)
?White Raven Defense(ToB)?

List II (Grace-gift level 3):
Blocker(Requires Combat Reflexes.)
???Defensive Trip???(This feat is a rough draft at this time, and I do not consider it ready to play without further consideration.).
Enhanced Material Defense*
GET OFF OF THEM!!!*
Improved Gift of Resistance*
Plague-Bane*

Improved Plague-Bane* (Requires Plague-Bane.)
Mage Slayer, Lesser*

List III (Grace-Gift level 5):
Combat Expertise(SPECIAL: When taken in this way this feat requires 5 ranks in Tumble)
Heavy Breather*
Improved Disarm(Requires Combat Expertise.)
Improved Swift to Protect*
Protector's Reward*

List IV (Grace-Gift level 7):
Anchoring Defense*
Cloak Dance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#cloakDance)
Energy Defense*
Sacrificial Defense*

List V (Grace-gift level 9):
Improved Blocker(Requires Blocker.)
Doubled Gifts*
Master of Motion*

List VI (Grace-Gift level 11):
Armored Defender*
Extradimensional Defense*(Requires Anchoring Defense.)
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least* (Requires Improved Toughness.)
Improved Divine Grace* (Note this requires Great Fortitude, Improved Divine Protection, Iron Will, and Lightning Reflexes.)
Improved Shield of the Soul*
Tripled Gifts*

List VII (Grace-Gift level 13):
Bountiful Gifts*
Chaotic Defense*
Evil Defense*
Good Defense*
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser* (Requires Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least, and Improved Toughness.)
Greater Shield of the Soul*
Improved Touch of the Grace-Gift*
Lawful Defense*

List VIII (Grace-Gift level 15):
Endless Gifts*
Grace-Gift's Toughness* (Requires Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser, which, in turn, requires two other specific feats.)
Improved Mobile Defender*
Strike Anything Defensively*

List IX (Grace-Gift level 17):
Grace-Gift's Dodge* (Requires Dodge)
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Improved* (Requires Grace-Gift's Toughness, which, in turn, requires three other specific feats.)
Martyr's Power* (Note that this requires 4 feats with the [Grace-Gift] descriptor and that this does NOT include any feat merely because it is on this list, it must specifically have the [Grace-Gift] tag.)

*These feats are new and specific to the class.




Divine Protection(Su): The grace-gift adds his Charisma bonus (if any) to her AC as a deflection bonus. In addition, a grace-gift increases this bonus by 1 at 5th level. This bonus increases by a further 1 for every five grace-gift levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level). If the grace-gift does not have a charisma bonus, the level-based bonus still applies. If the grace-gift has levels in any other class then the total AC bonus after combining these two sources is capped at the grace-gift's class level.

At 12th level the grace-gift may take a full round action to change the/all* AC bonus(es) from this ability to (an) insight bonus(es). All bonuses* granted by this ability must be of the same type at any given point in time.

At 18th level a third option is gained. Good aligned grace-gifts can change it to a sacred bonus. Lawful evil grace-gifts can change it to a profane bonus. Lawful neutral grace-gifts may pick which they will be able to change it to, but, like a neutral cleric choosing whether to channel positive or negative energy the path can not be altered after the fact for the rest of the character's existence. HOWEVER this choice ONLY applies when the Grace-Gift is Lawful Neutral. When Good or Evil, their actual alignment determines the type of bonus they provide. In any case this change of bonus type lasts until the grace-gift spends another full-round action to switch it again. Changing from any one of the three types to another is still a full-round action and all bonuses* from this ability must still be of the same type.


*See Gift of Protection under Least Gifts for explanation.

Healing Item Use(Ex):
A Grace-Gift may use certain clerical spells from scrolls, wands, staves, etc. as if they were a cleric of equal level to their grace-gift level. The spell must target one or more individuals (including individuals in a given area), must allow a Fortitude or Will Save, and must have the [Harmless] descriptor. It must also either be instantaneous or be one of the specified in the list found below. Any saving throw against such a spell that is not voluntarily failed is automatically successful and the spell has no effect on such individuals, even if it would normally have some effect even on a successful save.

The following non-instantaneous spells are allowed, however their duration changes to Concentration, capped at the duration of the original spell:
Any spell with Vigor in the name.
Neutralize Poison
Regeneration

Least Gifts(Sp):
An Ounce of Prevention(Sp):A Grace-Gift may cast Purify Food and Drink and/or Prestidigitation a total number of times per day equal to their class level. (Or at-will in Pathfinder). In this case Prestidigitation is considered a divine spell and can only be used for cleaning things, however this cleaning effect specifically is sufficient to remove disease causing materials (so, for instance, a bowl that a dying patient had vomited blood into would be safe to drink from after being cleaned in this way). Depending on setting, a Grace-Gift will usually know enough to use this ability on their surgical tools.

At 5th level this ability becomes at-will.
Gift of Protection(Sp):A Grace-Gift may transfer some or all of the AC bonus from Divine Protection (the total of his charisma bonus and the level-based increase) to any single ally within 10 feet as a swift action. This transfer lasts until the grace-gift fails to renew it on his turn as a swift action or the grace-gift is out of range of the target. The amount of this bonus on a given character may be dispeled (on the recipient, not the grace-gift), but the grace-gift may use a swift, move, or standard action to restore the amount lost to the recipient on his turn. This is equivalent to a spell of spell level equal to half the grace-gift's class level (minimum 1, maximum 9). No more than one instance of this transferal may be in effect at any one time. This usage of this ability counts as the ability to cast shield of faith for purposes of qualifying for prestige classes, feats, etc.

At 5th level the range of the single-target version of this ability increases to 20'.

At level 8 the grace-gift may instead have this benefit apply to all allies within a 15 foot spread of himself. In such a case the amount of the bonus given to the allies is 2 points less than that sacrificed by the grace-gift (minimum 0). The rules for dispelling this are the same, except that each target is considered a separate spell for that purpose (rolled individually, etc). This usage of this ability counts as the ability to cast legion's shield of faith for purposes of qualifying for prestige classes, feats, etc.

At 14th level the range of the single-target version of this ability increases to 30'.


Gift of Resistance(Sp): At 1st level the grace-gift may, as a swift action, take a penalty to all of his saves up to the the smallest of his three base save bonuses for one round. He then selects one type of save. Whenever within a 10 foot emanation from of the grace-gift all allies gain a bonus to the selected type of save for that same round equal to the amount of the penalty taken by the Grace-Gift. Allies further than 10 feet away, but within a 30 foot emanation when making a saving throw of that type gain half this bonus. This transferal is equivalent to a spell with level equal to half the amount of the close-range bonus available (minimum 1, and regardless of if any allies are in range to receive the bonus). This counts as the ability to cast resistance for purposes of qualifying for prestige classes, feats, etc.

At 4th level the Grace-gift needs only select two types of save for the penalties to apply to, but one of them must be the save type that the bonus applies to.

At 7th level the grace-gift only takes the penalty to the save that the bonus applies to.

At 9th level the grace-gift may use this ability two or three times per each activating action. Each sub-activation applies to a different save, and the grace-gift may select a different value for the penalty(and related bonuses) for each.

At 20th level the grace-gift only takes half the penalty/penalties (this has no effect on the progression of the bonuses they may provide).

Gift of Shielding (Sp): The grace-gift may cast Shield Other (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOther.htm) at-will with the following changes:

The duration is one round. It may NOT be dismissed.
The focii may be omitted, but in such a case the maximum amount of damage that may be prevented per round (and thus the maximum that may be taken by the grace-gift) is capped at the grace-gift's charisma modifier times 5. This has no effect on the amount of damage the Grace-Gift takes, only on the amount of damage that is prevented from the beneficiary.
No bonus on saves or AC is provided.

At class levels 1 and 2 this is equivalent to a first level divine spell. At class levels 3 and above it is considered a 2nd level divine spell and counts as the ability to cast shield other for the purposes of qualifying for prestige classes, feats, etc..

At 10th level this ability may be cast as either a standard action or as a swift action. It may not be in effect on more than one target at a time. The duration on all existing targets must expire before it can be re-cast.

At 15th level this ability may also be cast as an immediate action provided it is not already in operation. In such a case the duration is until the start of the Grace-Gift's turn(so if the first thing they do on their turn is renew the effect, then there is no instant where an enemy can attack with a readied action or whatever to by-pass it). It may not be in effect on more than one target at a time. The duration on all existing targets must expire before it can be re-cast.

Gift of Tolerance(Sp):
At 1st level, you may cast Endure Elements with a permanent duration on others at will, but at the cost of a 2 point penalty to constitution. These penalties stack with themselves and all other penalties. These penalties remain for 1 hour after you dismiss the particular casting. Anything that removes one or more of the penalties negates that/those casting(s) of the spell.


Carry the Burden(Sp): As a swift action the grace-gift may take the weight of gravity from one of his companions (NEVER HIMSELF) within a number of feet equal to his caster level times his charisma modifier times five. Initially this can have any one of the following effects:

A Feather Fall effect that lasts though any number of landings (but only 1 round).
The target character is only considered lightly encumbered by weight. Note that this can allow the target to carry more than they normally could, including if their strength score has been reduced. This has no effect on the non-weight based encumbering effects of armor or shields.
Cause a character wearing medium or heavy armor to only count as wearing light armor for purposes of movement speed, class features, running multipliers, etc. This also reduces arcane the total arcane spell failure chances from armor+shield by 10%, increases the maximum dexterity limit of the medium or heavy armor by 1, and halves the armor check penalty. None of this has any effect on weight-based encumbrance.
As #3 above, but instead causing a character wearing light armor and/or a light or heavy shield to count as wearing none of those things for purposes of movement, class features, etc, and completely negating arcane spell failure chances and armor check penalties for said armor and shield.

This ability qualifies as a 1st level divine spell.

In all cases (including those options gained at later levels), for the duration of this effect the grace-gift's load is increased by the weight of the target and all the target's load. If the weight taken ever causes the grace-gift's current load maximum encumbrance they fall prone and are considered pinned. Despite this they are still able to cast their grace-gift spells, despite them having somatic components, and without the need for a concentration check due to this pinning. In addition, if the grace-gift's total encumbrance is at least twice their maximum encumbrance they take damage as per the following table. (For people who prefer math to tables: 1d8 for each Maximum load value or fraction there-of that the load exceeds twice their maximum load). Note that (unless targeted separately, as provided below) mounts, wizards with familiars on their shoulders, orc barbarians carrying unconscious halfling rogues, etc may be granted flight, but that the carried creature counts as part of the carrying creature's load, and receives no separate effect.


EncumbranceDamage per round


Max to (2xMax)-1None


2xMax to (3xMax)-11d8


3xMax to (4xMax)-12d8


4xMax to (5xMax)-13d8


5xMax to (6xMax)-14d8


6xMax to (7xMax)-15d8


7xMax to (8xMax)-16d8


8xMax to (9xMax)-17d8


9xMax to (10xMax)-18d8


10xMax to (11xMax)-19d8


Etc.Etc.





At 3rd level a 5th option is gained that is a lot like a levitate spell. Specifically, it is as follows:

Carry the Burden, Lesser
Transmutation
Level: Grace-gift 2 (Divine)
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Caster-level x charisma Modifier x 5 feet
Target: One willing creature (No weight limit, but see below)
Duration: 1 round (D)
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: No

This ability allows another creature to move itself up and down as it wishes. The target can mentally direct itself to move up or down as much as 20 feet each round; doing so is a move action. This effect does not allow the recipient to move horizontally in and of itself, but they could clamber along the face of a cliff, for example, or push against a ceiling to move laterally (generally at half its base land speed).

A levitating creature that attacks with a melee or ranged weapon finds itself increasingly unstable; the first attack has a -1 penalty on attack rolls, the second -2, and so on, to a maximum penalty of -5. A full round spent stabilizing allows the creature to begin again at -1.



At 5th level this can instead function as a Fly (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fly.htm) spell with the following changes:

The casting time is a swift action.
The duration of the effect is one round, or until the target exits the range (including by force or voluntary movement of the grace-gift or the target).
The target falls at normal speed if the effect ends rather than slowly. This means they may (and in fact are quite likely to) take damage. NOTE HOWEVER that if the grace-gift continues to renew the effect every round, and does not delay their initiative, then the effect is considered continuous as long as the target remains in range.
The range is the aforementioned amount, not touch.
It requires no focus or divine focus, and the somatic component is waived if the grace-gift is only renewing it on targets he used it on the previous round.
It is a divine spell (still of 3rd level) instead of an arcane spell.

The weight transfer works as before.

At 7th level the grace-gift may target two separate allies at once with this ability, however the weight is cumulative. If used in this way it its effective spell level is increased to 4th. The version of this ability applied to each ally need not be the same.

At 10th level this increases to three separate allies. If used in this way it its effective spell level is increased to 5th.

At 14th level this again increases to four separate allies, if used in this way its effective spell level is increased to 7th.

Finally, at 17th level this increases to five separate allies, if used in this way its effective spell level is increased to 9th.

Swift to Protect(Ex): Before initiative is rolled a grace-gift may declare he is using the first part of this ability. He gains a bonus to his initiative equal to his levels in this class, but during his first turn in that combat may only take movement actions, draw one or more weapons, and/or use the abilities of this class (including Defensive Strikes, for instance if a held action provokes one) or grace-gift feats that involve action use OTHER than GET OFF OF THEM!!!.

Regardless of if he uses the above, when acting during a surprise round a Grace-Gift may take a swift action instead of a standard or move action.

Defensive Strike(Ex): A grace-gift who made no offensive actions* EXCEPT for AoOs that qualify for this ability during his previous turn (if any) adds his class level to the damage he inflicts on attacks of opportunity which are provoked by:

movement that would not take the target of the attack of opportunity further away from all of the grace-gifts allies. Familiars, psi-crystals, animal companions etc of the Grace-Gift never count for this purpose, and a mount the Grace-Gift is riding only counts it does not fall into the above set of categories (familiars etc) and has an intelligence score of 3 or higher.
attacks (including but not limited to spell-casting) targeted at the grace-gifts allies.

*In this case "offensive actions" does NOT only include direct action such as striking with a weapon, casting a spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe but also indirect action, including, but not limited to: summoning monsters and having them attack, cutting the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely triggering traps, opening a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth.

None of the bonuses from this ability stack with any bonuses granted by the weapon wielded. For instance, if the weapon causes energy damage due to an enhancement on it (rather than a feat or class ability) then the grace-gift would have to pick whether to apply the bonus energy damage or the damage from this class ability.

At 3rd level, when making such attacks of opportunity, the grace-gift counts his BAB from this class as being equal to his levels in it for purposed of determining his total attack bonus, and adds his charisma BONUS to all attack rolls for such attacks of opportunity. (For those of you who get weirded out by BAB changing, replace that part with a (class level +1)/2 bonus to such attack rolls... it works out to the same thing). At Epic Levels, the BAB "only" increases to that which would result if grace-gift was a full-bab class.

At 6th level the grace-gift's bonus to damage on such attacks of opportunity increases to 1.5 times his class level.

At 10th level the grace-gift's bonus to damage on such attacks of opportunity increases to twice his class level.

At 16th level the grace-gift's bonus to damage on such attacks of opportunity increases to three times his class level.

Life Saver(Ex): The grace-gift may always take 10 on heal checks to stabilize another character, treat bleeding wounds, provide long-term care, or treat foot wounds of the sort resulting from caltrops, spike growth, spike stones, and similar spells and effects regardless of stress or distractions. A number of times per day equal to their class level they may instead take 20 on such a check, without increasing the amount of time required, and still regardless of stress or distractions.

At 4th level they may take 10 on heal checks made to treat poison and disease regardless of stress or distractions.


Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a grace-gift gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws. This does not stack with similar class abilities from the paladin, blackguard, or crusader.

Helpful(Ex): When making a skill check (www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#aidAnother) or to-hit roll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#aidAnother) to Aid Another a grace-gift of at least 2nd level may always take 10, regardless of stress or distractions. This does not allow them to use "trained only" skills that they do not have skill ranks in.

At 6th level the bonus on attack roll applies to all attacks by the selected ally on the selected enemy for the next round. or the bonus to AC applies to all attacks by the selected enemy on the selected ally for a similar period. The bonus on skill checks increases to +3 if the Grace-Gift accepts a +3 to the DC of his aid-another check (regardless of if they take 10 on it).

At 10th level the Grace-Gift gains several bonuses to Aid Another:

The bonus to skill checks may be increased to +4 if the Grace-Gift accepts a +6 to the DC of his aid-another check (regardless of if they take 10 on it).
All AC and to-hit bonuses from Aid-Another by the grace-gift increase to +3.
When using the aid another combat action the grace-gift may select one of the following options:

They may apply the bonus to all ranged attacks made by a single ally on the selected opponent. The ally does not need to be engaged in melee combat with the selected, but the opponent must still be one the grace-gift could make a melee attack on.
They may apply the bonus (AC or to-hit as the case may be) to an unlimited number of allies who meet the PHB requirements for being the recipient of the benefits of the aid another combat action.


At 15th level the bonus from the aid another combat action increases to +4 and the bonus from the aid another use of skills increases by +1 regardless of whether the grace-gift uses any of the other ways that this ability allows him to increase the bonus granted. This means that when going against a DC 10 skill check the grace-gift provides a +3 bonus, a successful DC 13 check yields a +4 bonus, and a successful DC 16 skill check grants a +5 bonus to the person being aided.
In addition, once per day, they may take 20 on one or the other sort of aid another check without increasing the time required.

At 20th level the bonus from the from the aid another combat action increases to +4 and the bonus from the aid another use of skills increases by a total of +2 regardless of whether the grace-gift uses any of the other ways that this ability allows him to increase the bonus granted. This means that when going against a DC 10 skill check the grace-gift provides a +4 bonus, a successful DC 13 check yields a +5 bonus, and a successful DC 16 skill check grants a +6 bonus to the person being aided.
They may take 20 on any combination of 3 aid-another checks per day, instead of merely once per day, mixing freely between the combat action and the skill-use option. This still does not increase the amount of time required.


Master of the Healing-ward(Ex): When providing long-term care a grace-gift of at least 2nd level may provide for a number of additional patients equal to half of his grace-gift level.

Using this ability causes the eight hours per day required to use those uses of the skill to count as strenuous activity rather than light activity.


Courage(Ex): Beginning at 3rd level, a grace-gift is immune to fear (magical or otherwise) for himself. Fear for those he cares about functions against him normally. Note that spells that do not specify (or explicitly allow the caster to specify) the rationalization for the fear that they create never qualify as causing fear for another person. This ability tends to make torturing a grace-gift pointless, as, unless they make a conscious and reasoned decision to do otherwise, they will not even give the torturer the satisfaction of crying out.


Enhanced Defensive Strike (Su):At 3rd level a grace-gifts defensive strikes are empowered by divine energy. All his defensive strikes* are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction and/or regeneration and for striking incorporeal creatures.

At 7th level the grace-gift may select one alignment component that he has (Chaotic, Evil, Good, or Lawful) to add to all his defensive strikes* for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction, regeneration etc. Alternatively he may elect to treat his defensive strikes as if they were made with a ghost touch weapon for purposes of determining if the attack hits/is possible in the first place. As a third alternative he may elect to gain the option to add 2d6 damage to his defensive strikes, at the cost of taking 1d6 damage himself whenever he uses this option (cf the vicious weapon enhancement and stacking with it). In any of these cases this choice is permanent once made. In the case of Ghost Touch with a net, on a successful AoO the effect lingers until the target is no longer in the net.

At 11th level all defensive strikes made by the grace-gift are treated as if made with an adamantine weapon for purposes of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction, regeneration etc.

At 15th level the grace-gift selects an additional alignment component, the ghost touch effect, or vicious effect to add to all his defensive strikes. The same effect may NOT be selected twice. Once again, this choice is permanent once made.

*A defensive strike is defined as any attack that qualifies for the bonuses of the defensive strike class ability.

Hands of the Healer(Su): Nota Bene: Despite referring to treating a variety of conditions as if they were diseases, all uses of this ability require only one successful roll to have the listed effect, not two in a row.

At 3rd level, the healing abilities of the grace-gift transcend the limits of mundane medicine. They may treat most blindness or deafness, or any magical effects reducing one of the patient's(or more than one patient if master of the healing-ward is used) ability scores as diseases for the purposes of the heal skill. In any of the above three cases this requires 24 hours of bedrest for the patient(s), and the grace-gift must treat them for the first 8 hours of this time. Roll at the end of the 24 hours, and retries (with another 24 hours of bedrest starting with 8 hours of treatment) are allowed, and only one success required to cure the condition. For blindness or deafness the DC is a flat 22. However, this ability does not restore ears or eyes that have been lost, but it repairs them if they are damaged. For a magical penalty to one ability score (effects reducing more than one ability score must have each ability score be treated separately) the DC is equal to that of the effect that caused the penalty in the first place, or 10+1/2 inflictor's hit-dice(or caster level as appropriate) + constitution(or casting ability) modifier if no save was initially allowed. The patient rolls no saving throw, the grace-gift's heal check is always substituted. The grace-gift MAY take 10 on such checks(but not yet on the any other uses of this ability). "Lifesaver" does not allow taking 10 or 20 on any use of this ability.

At this level they may also spend 1 hour tending to a corpse. At the end of this time they roll a heal check. If the result is higher than 20 then they cause the corpse to be effected by Gentle Repose with a caster level equal to their own or the amount by which the check beat DC 20 whichever is lower. ??? If the result is 16 to 20 then there is no effect. If the result is 15 or lower then they actually accelerate the decay of the corpse by 1 day, reducing the window of opportunity for revivification magic. They may take 10 (but not 20) on this check, and may also fail it intentionally (although burning the corpse and scattering the ashes is generally more efficient).???

At 6th level, they may treat negative levels, level drain, and ability score drain as if they were diseases. Each level drained or point of ability drain is considered a separate disease and requires a SEPARATE treatment period. Treating all negative levels on a given characters counts as treating a single patient for a single disease. Patients treated using this ability count against the grace-gift's limits as if they were being treated for a disease (IE only one at a time unless master of the healing-ward is used). In no case may this ability work against something that Greater Restoration could not. Examples include the negative level imposed on a Good-aligned person wielding an Unholy weapon or the constitution penalty imposed by the gift of breath class feature on another grace-gift (or themselves if they somehow have the ability to treat themselves). As with all uses of this ability, only one success is needed to have an effect.

To dispel negative levels, the patient (or patients if Master of the Healing-Ward is used) must take 8 hours of total bedrest while the grace-gift tends to them. If this time is completed before the time for the secondary fortitude saves to remove the negative levels comes around, then when those secondary saves are rolled (or immediately if secondary saves are not relevant), then the grace-gift makes a heal check paired with each fortitude save. If the heal check is higher than the matching fortitude save then it is used in place of that fortitude save. This may not be retried for any given negative level (so spending two 8 hour sessions before the 24 hour limit on the re-reroll is up does NOT allow two heal checks with each fortitude save).

If restoring ability drain then the Grace-Gift must select the ability score he will be restoring drain to, then the patient (or patients if Master of the Healing-Ward is being used), must take complete bedrest for at least 24 hours continuously, and the grace-gift must devote their full attention to them for the first 8 hours of that time. At the end of this period the Grace-Gift makes a heal check against DC 25. If this check is successful a single point of drain to that ability score is converted to ability damage.

If attempting to restore a drained level then it functions as per removing a point of ability score drain, with the caveats that success removes the drained level completely, and that the process must be completed before a number of days equal to the grace-gift's class level have passed from when the drained level in question was inflicted. Note that this process may be repeated multiple times in that time-period if initial attempts fail, and/or if more than one negative level was inflicted. A character who has a level restored in this way has exactly the minimum number of experience points necessary to restore him or her to his or her previous level. This ability can not restore levels or Constitution points lost due to death. Only one success is required to remove each individual negative level, not two in a row (as is required for recovery from a mundane disease).

At 11th level the time limit for removing drained levels increases to one week per grace-gift level.

At 13th level the grace-gift may take 10 on all heal checks made as part of this ability.


Status (Sp):
At 3rd level, a grace-gift can cast status, as the spell, once per day.

They can use this ability twice per day starting at 8th level.

At 14th level they can cast it at-will.

Gift of Time(Sp): At 4th level a grace-gift may grant an additional moment to act to a single ally within 10 feet(however the grace-gift and the target do not need to REMAIN within this range of each other after this effect is cast...). The grace-gift may expend a move action to grant an ally within 10 feet a 20 foot bonus to their base speed for all forms of movement they have for one round. This may not increase any base speed to more than double its starting amount, and a given ally may only benefit from one movement rate increase from a grace-gift per turn. As with any effect that increases your speed, this spell affects your jumping distance (see the Jump (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/jump.htm) skill). This usage of this ability counts as the ability to cast both Longstrider and Expeditious Retreat as divine spells for purposes of qualifying for prestige classes, feats, etc.

At 6th level if he instead takes no other actions on his turn a grace-gift may do more with this ability. This may not be combined the additional actions or attacks from with Haste, True Haste, weapons of speed, etc., in such a case the target must choose which single effect to benefit from in that way at the beginning of their turn. Numerical benefits to armor class etc still apply from one such effect, even if the additional action(s) for this ability is selected. This usage of this ability counts as the ability to cast haste as a divine spell for purposes of qualifying for prestige classes, feats, etc.

At 6th level this more powerful use may only grant the target character an additional move action on their next turn. This action may be taken in any order with other actions but may neither interrupt nor be interrupted by other actions by that character.

At 8th level the range of all applications of this ability increases to 20 feet.

At 10th level the more powerful versions of this ability requires only a full-round action to use.

At 12th level the range of all applications of this ability increases to 30 feet.

At 15th level when using the full-round version of this ability the grace-gift may instead chose to grant an additional swift or standard action (or they may grant an additional move action, as before).

At 18th level the range of all applications of this ability increases to 40 feet.

At 20th level the grace-gift may grant a move action AND a standard action when using the full-round version of this ability. These may be granted to a single target, or to two separate targets. ESPECIALLY NOTE THAT THESE MAY BE COMBINED INTO A FULL ROUND ACTION BY THE TARGET IF BOTH ARE GIVEN TO THE SAME TARGET.

Gift of Breath (Sp): At 5th level, you may sustain a number of willing creatures equal to your charisma modifier (minimum 1) within a range of your charisma modifier times 15 feet (minimum 30 feet) without the need to breath. You may add and/or remove creatures once per round during your turn as a swift action plus a standard action.

The description of each target must be unique, but can be vague. Thus if you saw a hole in the middle of a frozen pond and specified "The creature underneath the ice making that thumping noise." then that would work if the creature was a single drowning individual (and technically would work if it were a dire carp chasing a school of minnows that were all trying to flee along the lower surface of the ice), but if there were two such individuals the ability would fail. If you instead specified that you were targeting "First the closest creature to me that is making those thumping noises under the ice, then the second closest creature to me that is making those thumping noises under the ice, then the third closest, and so on." then you could potentially reset the suffocation periods of a number of drowning persons equal to your charisma modifier as if they had been able to breath clean and fresh air for that round.

You take a penalty to constitution for each creature you so sustain dependent on its size relative to you, and level of activity. In effect, any creature that makes a (or more than one, see Gift of Time) standard or full round action re-inflicts its penalty on you at that time. If a creature would have had to make a fortitude save on its turn if you did not intervene with this effect, add the DC of that save minus 10 (minimum 1) to the penalty it applies to you that round. If you CAN and ARE engaging in respiration (have lungs that are useful for oxygenating your blood-stream, rather than just talking or blowing out candles etc , are in a medium you can and are breathing, etc), but don't HAVE to (perhaps due to a Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone), then you halve all constitution penalties from this ability.


Size category relative to youPenalty(Low Activity) Penalty(High Activity)


1 smaller-1-2


Same-2-4


1 larger-4-8


2 larger-8-16


3 larger-16-32


4 larger-32-64


5 or more larger-64-128


You must have a constitution score to use this ability, and the penalties from it CAN kill you if they reduce your constitution score to 0 or below. In such a case the effect still happens that round, your dying breath having great power to save others.

This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd level divine spell and has no somatic components(thus spell-failure for armor and shields do not apply to it).

Unlike most magical effects, this can penetrate all barriers except force effects that target an area, rather than an individual. Thus Wall of Force, or the solid version of Forcecage stop it, but Mage Armor, Shield, and Bigby's Interposing Hand don't. You must clearly identify each creature you wish to target with this ability.

This usage of this ability counts as the ability to cast water breathing as a divine spell for purposes of qualifying for prestige classes, feats, etc.


Gift of Soul(Su): You may assist with the creation of any magic item, regardless of pre-requisites. The limits on activity levels, working time, etc apply to you as normal. The other worker(s) must be able to meet all pre-requisites (except XP available, which doesn't matter either way) to allow this to work. The only benefit of this is that you may contribute XPs towards the XP cost of the item. Any magic item creation process that does not have a sufficient amount of total XPs contributed to it fails as if it was abandoned before it was complete.
You may also provide part or all of the XP component of any spell cast by an ally that you are touching for the entire casting time. This donation may not be coerced in any way.

Helping Hand (Sp):
At 5th level, a grace-gift can cast Helping Hand, as the spell, once per day. She can use this ability one additional time per day at the following levels: 12th, ???.

Gift of Life (Sp): All uses of this ability require the same material components and have the same casting times as the spells they duplicate. In all cases if the grace-gift does not have a constitution score they may substitute an equal amount of burn to strength AND half that amount of burn to charisma.

At 9th level a grace-gift may take 4 points of constitution burn to cast Raise Dead.

At 13th level a grace-gift may take 6 points of constitution burn to cast Resurrection.

At 17th level a grace-gift may take 8 points of constitution burn to cast True Ressurection.

Shield of the Soul(Su/Sp): At 11th level the grace-gift gains spell resistance equal to their class level + 5 as a supernatural ability.

As a swift, move, or standard action spell-like ability they may transfer this for one round, with a +5 additional bonus, to an ally within 10 feet. This transferal is equivalent to a divine spell of 5th level. If, when transferred to someone other than the Grace-gift, the bearer of this spell resistance has spell resistance from another source that is equal to or greater than that granted by this ability, that applies against any given thing, then that other spell-resistance (against that specific effect) is instead increased by half the grace-gift's class level. Naturally, only one character may benefit from this spell-resistance at a time. For instance the grace-gift can not use all three types of actions to grant spell-resistance to three different targets (but see below).

At 16th level, as a move or standard action spell-like ability this instead benefits all their allies (BUT NOT THEMSELVES) within a 10 foot emanation centered on the grace-gift. All allies further away than 10 feet, but within a 30 foot emanation of the grace-gift instead receive the spell resistance without the +5 bonus or the ability to have it apply as a bonus to another source of spell-resistance. When used in this way the transferal's equivalent spell level increases to 8th.

At 19th level, the grace-gift's may improve his spell resistance to class level +10 as a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. This increase lasts until he takes another full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity to switch it back to the lower level (which can be useful for generating synergy with other sources of spell resistance when giving away this spell resistance).


Mobile Defender(Ex): At 13th a grace-gift may use a modified version of the total defense action as a swift action. In this case no bonus to AC is provided, however the grace-gift may still make attacks of opportunity as provided by the Blocker and Improved Blocker feats as if he had spend a full-round action on total defense, provided he has the feat(s) in question. However if you use this option, any movement you make via those feats before the start of your next turn counts against your movement for said next turn, thus requiring you to expend at least a five-foot step, and quite possibly a move action, or even (in very rare cases) a double-move action.

Alternatively, you may NOT gain the above class feature, and instead take any feat with the [Grace-Gift] tag, from lists I to IV(sic, NOT list VII).


Matchless Loyalty(Ex): At 13th level the grace-gift automatically breaks completely free of any mind-affecting effect the instant before it would otherwise cause him to cause harm to any creature he considered an ally at the moment he initially succumbed to said effect. Among other things this can reverse the effects of Mind Rape.


Gift of Foresight(Sp): At 17th level a grace-gift you may cast foresight at-will on others only. You may only have a number of such effects in place at one time equal to one third your charisma modifier rounded down (minimum 1). You may dismiss a single casting of this spell as a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

DracoDei
2012-06-25, 04:29 PM
NEW Feats
Standard Format Index of New Feats
Anchoring Defense
---Extradimensional Defense
Armored Defender
Burden Bearer
Chaotic Defense

Defensive Trip
Diving Evasion
Doubled Gifts
---Tripled Gifts
------Bountiful Gifts
---------Endless Gifts
Energy Defense
Enhanced Material Defense
---Strike Anything Defensively
Evil Defense
Gift of Protection, Improved
---Gift of Protection, Greater
Good Defense
Grace-Gift's Dodge
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
---Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser
------Grace-Gift's Toughness
---------Grace-Gift's Toughness, Improved
GET OFF OF THEM!!!
Heavy Breather
Improved Gift of Resistance
---Improved Divine Grace
Improved Gift of Tolerance
Improved Healing Acceleration((Need to roll this into the main class))
Improved Shield of the Soul
---Greater Shield of the Soul
Improved Swift to Protect
Improved Mobile Defender
Lawful Defense
Mage-Slayer, Lesser
Master of Motion
Plague-Bane
---Improved Plague-Bane
??Protecting Paladin??
??Protector's Reward??
Sacrificial Defense
Shielded Defender
Stoic Protector
Touch of the Grace-Gift
---Improved Touch of the Grace-Gift
---Disaster's Bane
Martyr's Power

The Feats Themselves

Anchoring Defense [Grace-Gift]

You can seriously impede even the most elusive of foes.
Prerequisites: Enhanced Defensive Strike with Ghost Touch.
Benefits: When you hit an incorporeal creature with a defensive strike, it must make a will save with a DC of 10+1/2 grace-gift level+charisma modifier. If it fails it loses the incorporeal quality for 1d3 rounds. If it is currently at least partially within a solid object it is shunted out to the nearest open space that can fully contain it, taking 1d6 damage per 5 feet so traveled.
Special: A character with at least 7 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. You may take this feat more than once, each time after the first, the DC of the save increases by 3.

Extradimensional Defense [Grace-Gift]
Even teleportation can not protect aggressors.
Prerequisites: Anchoring Defense, Grace-Gift Level 11, Enhanced Defensive Strike with Ghost Touch.
Benefits: An opponent who uses a [teleportation] spell or effect to arrive withing your threatened area provokes an attack of opportunity from you, this attack of opportunity gains the benefits of Enhanced Defensive Strike. If they are arriving within {their own reach plus 5'} of an ally this attack of opportunity counts fully as a Defensive Strike.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Armored Defender [Grace-Gift]
You can work around the problems of wearing a bit more protection.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift Level 11, Proficiency with Medium Armor
Benefits: You do not suffer an arcane spell failure chance for grace-gift spells or spell-like abilities for medium armor, and retain your deflection bonus. You may tumble in medium armor, but if you do so, the armor check penalty from the armor to the tumble roll is doubled.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Burden Bearer [Grace-Gift]
"He's not heavy, he's my comrade."
Prerequisites: Carry the Burden class feature.
Benefits: Halve the amount of all load increases caused by your use of your Carry the Burden class ability.
Normal: Your load increases by the weight of the character(s) benefiting from your Carry the Burden ability plus the sum of their loads.
Special: This feat may be taken up to three times, its effects stack. The progression is 1/2, 1/4, 1/8. A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Chaotic Defense [Grace-Gift]
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 13, Enhanced Defensive Strike [Chaos].
Benefits: When you hit an non-chaotic creature with a defensive strike it is deafened for 1d4 rounds. If it has more hitdice than your Grace-Gift caster level it is allowed a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 10+1/2 grace-gift level+charisma modifier to negate the deafness. Furthermore, if you are on your home plane, and the creature you strike is a nonchaotic extraplanar creature it must make a will save against the same DC (regardless of hit-dice) or be instantly banished back to its home plane. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. You may take this feat more than once, each time after the first, the DC of the saves increases by 3.


Defensive Trip [Grace-Gift]
"Hold It!"
Prerequisites: Defensive Strike class feature granting a to-hit bonus, Grace-Gift level 3
Benefits: If you are unarmed, or if you can make trip attacks with your weapon, you may substitute trip attempts for attacks of opportunity provoked by movement. You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent in this way while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent in this way and when using bolas to trip. These benefits do not stack with the benefits of the Improved Trip feat and you do not get a free attack on an opponent you successfully trip in this way, even if you also have the Improved Trip feat.
Normal: You can't make trip attempts as attacks of opportunity and trip attempts provoke attacks of opportunity.
Special: A character with at least 3(2?) levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Diving Evasion [Fighter] [Grace-Gift]
Prerequisites: Tumble 1 rank, Dexterity 13, must be capable of being both standing and prone (not at the same time of course).
Benefits: When this feat is active, there is a direction that you could take a 5' step in without squeezing (regardless of other factors that might effect your ability to take 5' steps), and you are standing, you gain a +2 dodge bonus to your AC and a +2 bonus to reflex saves, however, any reflex save you make by less than 5 or any attack that misses you by less than 5 points causes you to become prone, and moves you 5 feet in a random direction that you could fit without squeezing. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

You may activate or deactivate this feat at any time (except during the process of an attack on you or you making reflex save). During your turn this is a free action, at any other time it is an immediate action.
Normal: You can't dive out of the way of attacks.
Special: A Fighter or Grace-Gift may take this feat as one of their class bonus feats.

Doubled Gifts [Grace-Gift]
You can grant your gifts somewhat more easily.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 9
Benefits: Once per round, up to 3/day, you may exchange a standard action for a swift action, however this action can ONLY be used to cast a grace-gift SLA. In no case may you use a given SLA more than once per round by virtue of this feat.


Tripled Gifts [Grace-Gift]
You can grant your gifts very easily.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 11
Benefits: Once per round, up to 3 times per day, you may exchange a move action for a swift action, however this action can ONLY be used to cast a grace-gift SLA. In no case may you use a given SLA more than once per round by virtue of this feat(even in combination with Doubled Gifts).

Also, you may use Doubled Gifts 6/day instead of 3/day, but still only once per round.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Bountiful Gifts [Grace-Gift]
Gifts flow from you like beer from a keg at a dwarven celebration.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 13
Benefits: You may use Doubled Gifts a number of times per day equal to 3+half your grace-gift level. You may use Tripled Gifts a number of times per day equal to 1+one-third your grace-gift level. Neither may be used more than once per round each.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Endless Gifts [Grace-Gift]
Gifts flow from you like water over a waterfall.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 15
Benefits: You have no daily limit on the number of times you may use doubled gifts or tripled gifts.
Special: A character with at least 15 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Energy Defense [Grace-Gift]
The energy of your protection manifests a bit more obviously than most grace-gifts.
Prerequisites: Enhanced Defensive Strike with an alignment type.
Benefits: Each time you make a defensive strike, you may change the bonus damage granted by your defensive strike class feature to one of the following that your defensive strikes are aligned to by your enhanced defensive strike class feature. Pick one at the time you take this feat. This can't be changed but you can take this feat again to add another option.

Acid, halve amount of bonus damage when using this option(Evil aligned strike)
Cold(Lawful aligned strike)
Fire(Evil aligned strike)
Lightning(Good aligned strike)
Non-lethal, this applies to all damage dealt by the strike, not just the bonus damage(Good aligned strike)
Sonic, halve amount of bonus damage when using this option(Chaotic aligned strike)

This is a supernatural ability.

More importantly, you gain also gain resistance to the damage type equal to twice your grace-gift level(or four times your grace-gift level in DR/lethal damage if you gain the ability to deal subdual damage via this feat, but which does NOT apply against things such as hunger, thirst, cold and hot environments, etc). This is a supernatural ability.

You may use a swift, move, or standard action to transfer this resistance or damage reduction to one ally within a number of feet equal to 10+Your Grace-Gift level, rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5. This transfer lasts for one round, and is a Gift, and thus a spell-like ability. You may use it as many times per round as you have the actions to.
Normal: Your bonus damage from defensive strike is the same type as when you are not making a defensive strike.
Special: A character with at least 7 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. You may take this feat more than once, each time select a different damage type that you qualify for your bonus damage.

Enhanced Material Defense [Grace-Gift]
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 3, Enhanced Defensive Strike class feature.
Benefit: Select one(two?) material which a two-handed weapon for a medium sized may be made of for an additional cost of no more than 2,000 gp. When making defensive strikes your weapon counts as being made of that SPECIFIC material for by-passing damage reduction, regeneration, and other such defenses, or for special purposes involving a specific material (for instance if you have some sort of Vampire Hunter PrC that lets you stake vampires during AoOs on a sufficiently good roll, you might wish to select "wood" so that you can stake with metal swords and other piercing weapons of appropriate length). This is IN ADDITION to any other material(s) it is made of or counts as being made of. In no case does this allow your weapon to acquire a trait that could be acquired via enhanced defensive strike, such as flame-touched iron weapons counting as [Good]. In any case other common (and valid) choices include cold iron, alchemical silver(noting there is no penalty to damage with this option), Byeshk, or Targath.
Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. This feat may be taken more than once. Each time you select a new (pair of) material(s).


Strike Anything Defensively [Grace-Gift]
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 15, Enhanced Defensive Strike(Adamantine and two special features) class feature, Enhanced Material Defense emulating at least two different materials ((Give rebates on any excess instances?))
Benefit: Your defensive strikes ignore all damage reduction.
Special: A character with at least 15 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Evil Defense [Grace-Gift]
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 13, Enhanced Defensive Strike [Good].
Benefits: When you hit an non-evil creature with a defensive strike it is dazed for 1 round. If it has more hitdice than your Grace-Gift caster level it is allowed a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 10+1/2 grace-gift level+charisma modifier to negate the deafness. Furthermore, if you are on your home plane, and the creature you strike is a nonevil extraplanar creature it must make a will save against the same DC (regardless of hit-dice) or be instantly banished back to its home plane. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. You may take this feat more than once, each time after the first, the DC of the saves increases by 3.

Gift of Protection, Improved [Grace-gift]
Your protection from threats as simple as a blade is strong.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 1, Gift of Protection
Benefits: When you use your Gift of Protection class feature to grant at least 1 point of armor class bonus to a SINGLE ally the granted bonus is then increased by 2. When using the multi-targeting version of Gift of Protection, the targets gain (bonus sacrificed -1) instead of (bonus sacrificed -2) armor class.
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Gift of Protection, Greater [Grace-gift]
Your protection from threats as simple as a blade is strong.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 9?, Gift of Protection, Gift of Protection, Improved
Benefits: When you use your Gift of Protection class feature on a SINGLE ally and sacrifice at least 3 points of AC the granted bonus is double what you sacrifice instead of the +2 extra you would grant if you only gave up 1 or 2 points. When using the multi-targeting version of Gift of Protection, the targets gain (bonus sacrificed +1) armor class.
Special: A grace-gift of at least ?9th? level may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Good Defense [Grace-Gift]
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 13, Enhanced Defensive Strike [Good].
Benefits: When you hit an non-good creature with a defensive strike it is deafened for 1d4 rounds. If it has more hitdice than your Grace-Gift caster level it is allowed a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 10+1/2 grace-gift level+charisma modifier to negate the deafness. Furthermore, if you are on your home plane, and the creature you strike is a nongood extraplanar creature it must make a will save against the same DC (regardless of hit-dice) or be instantly banished back to its home plane. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. You may take this feat more than once, each time after the first, the DC of the saves increases by 3.

Grace-Gift's Dodge [Grace-Gift]
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 17, Dodge, Tumble 22 ranks, Divine Protection class feature granting you at least a +10 bonus to armor class(when you aren't giving it away).
Benefit: Once per round, when struck by an attack from an opponent you have designated as the object of your dodge, you may automatically avoid all damage from the attack.
Special: A character with at least 17 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least [Grace-Gift]
Your body is a shield for those who need it, and a shield that can not take a few nicks is utterly worthless.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 11, Improved Toughness
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +2/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser [Grace-Gift]
Your body is a shield for those who need it, and shields need to be strong.
Prerequisites:
Grace-gift level 13
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +3/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Grace-Gift's Toughness[Grace-Gift]
Some shields are better-made than others.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 15
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +4/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 15 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Grace-Gift's Toughness, Improved [Grace-Gift]
Pain is only the sign that someone is making a feeble attempt to remove you from between them and those you protect.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 17
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser
Grace-Gift's Toughness
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +6/level(sic). This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 17 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.



GET OFF OF THEM! [Grace-Gift]
Attempting to overwhelm your teammates with numbers is... unwise.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 3, Defensive Strike class feature granting to-hit bonus.
Benefit: At its most basic level you may use a full-round action to make a single melee attack on each enemy that is within your threatened area that has at least one ally (NOT COUNTING YOURSELF) within its threatened area and has made a melee attack against at least one of your allies (AGAIN, NOT COUNTING YOURSELF) since your last turn (or the start of combat if it is your first turn). These attacks are made at your full BAB and gain the to-hit bonus from Defensive Strike and half of the damage bonus of Defensive Strike. If you have the Enhanced Defensive Strike ability these attacks also have all the benefits of that ability to which your class levels and feats entitle you.

When you use the GET OFF OF THEM!!! feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

If your grace-gift level is at least 6 when using this ability you may instead make these attacks as a standard action.

If your grace-gift level is at least 11 and you are actually using a full round action to use this ability, then you make two such attacks on each such enemy.

If your grace-gift level is at least 16 then you may make two such attacks on each such enemy as a standard action.

Remember, you can not use this feat on your first turn in any combat in which you use Swift to Protect.

Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Heavy Breather [Grace-gift]
With practice, breathing for two becomes much easier.
Prerequisites: Gift of Breath class feature.
Benefits: Halve Constitution penalties for each character you are breathing for via "Gift of Breath", minimum 1 in the case of each such character.
Normal: You take penalties to constitution when breathing for other characters as per the appropriate chart.
Special: A character with at least 5 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. This feat may be taken up to three times, its effects stack. The progression is 1/2, 1/4, 1/8. The minimum constitution penalty for each creature you are breathing for remains unchanged.

DracoDei
2012-06-25, 04:31 PM
Improved Gift of Resistance [Grace-gift]
Every scrap of protection from threats more complex than a blade is yours to give as a gift... provided it was truly given to you by the gods to begin with.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 3, Gift of Resistance and Divine Grace class features
Benefits: You gain a +1 bonus to all saving throws. This is three SEPARATE bonuses. Both these bonuses and the bonuses to saves from divine grace may now be transferred via Gift of Resistance as if they were base saves.
Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Improved Divine Grace [Grace-gift]
The protections against threats more complex than a blade on you are strong indeed.
Prerequisites:
Class Level: Grace-gift level 11
Class Features: Gift of Resistance and Divine Grace class features
Feats: Great Fortitude, Improved Gift of Resistance, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes
Benefits: You gain a +4 bonus to all saving throws. This bonus may not be transferred.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Improved Gift of Tolerance [Grace-gift]
Neather arctic chill nor desert heat affects you or those under your care.
Prerequisites:
Class level: Grace-gift level 1
Class features: Gift of Tolerance
Benefits: You gain a +4 bonus to saves against any environmental condition of heat or cold that Endure Elements would provide a mechanical benefit against. You now may effect two targets per point of constitution penalty you take from Gift of Tolerance.
Normal: Each target you effect with Gift of Tolerance imposes a -2 penalty to your constitution score.
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Improved Shield of the Soul [Grace-gift]
Your soul's shield is stronger than usual.
Prerequisites: Shield of the Soul class feature, Grace-Gift level 11
Benefits: The spell resistance granted by your Shield of the Soul increases by 2.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Greater Shield of the Soul [Grace-gift]
Your soul's shield is both adaptable and very strong.
Prerequisites: Shield of the Soul class feature, Improved Shield of the Soul, Grace-Gift level 13
Benefits: The spell resistance granted by your Shield of the Soul increases by a further 2 points. This stacks with the bonus given by Shield of the Soul.
Additionally, when transferring your spell-resistance you may choose to reduce the strength of the spell-resistance(s) you grant to each ally benefiting from the transfer, thus allowing it to synergize better with their spell-resistance from other sources. You may reduce each individual spell-resistance granted by a different amount, including zero (but not less than zero... that would just be silly, you silly!).
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Improved Swift to Protect [Grace-gift]
???
Prerequisites: Swift to Protect, Grace-Gift level 5
Benefits: When you use Swift to Protect but before initiative is rolled, you may select one of two benefits:

You may add your charisma modifier to your initiative.
If, upon rolling, your total initiative score would be less than your charisma score, replace it with your charisma score.

Special: A character with at least 5 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Improved Mobile Defender [Grace-gift]
Even at your most overwhelmed your protection does not flag.
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Blocker, Improved Blocker, Grace-Gift level 15, Mobile Defender Class feature.
Benefits: For purposes of the Blocker and Improved Blocker feats you may take Total Defense as a free action at the end of your turn. The effects for those feats is as if you had spend a full-round action taking Total Defense. However if you use this option, any movement you make via those feats before the start of your next turn counts against your movement for said next turn, thus requiring you to expend at least a five-foot step, and quite possibly a move action, or even (in very rare cases) a double-move action.
This version of total defense provides no bonus to armor class or other similar benefits.
Special: A character with at least 15 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Chaotic Defense [Grace-Gift]
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 13, Enhanced Defensive Strike [Law].
Benefits: When you hit an non-lawful creature with a defensive strike it is deafened for 1d4 rounds. If it has more hitdice than your Grace-Gift caster level it is allowed a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 10+1/2 grace-gift level+charisma modifier to negate the deafness. Furthermore, if you are on your home plane, and the creature you strike is a nonlawful extraplanar creature it must make a will save against the same DC (regardless of hit-dice) or be instantly banished back to its home plane. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. You may take this feat more than once, each time after the first, the DC of the saves increases by 3.

Mage-Slayer, Lesser [Grace-gift]
It is difficult to hurt your friends with magic when you are on the job.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 3, Spellcraft 4 ranks
Benefits: Spellcasters you threaten may not cast spells that target one or more of your allies defensively, (they automatically fail their concentration checks to do so), but they are aware that they cannot cast such spells defensively while being threatened by a character with this feat. This includes harmful spells that target an area (such as Wail of the Banshee, Fireball, or Web) occupied by one or more of your allies. Remember you do not count as your own ally.
Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. Note that unlike the Mage-Slayer feat this does not reduce your own caster level.

Martyr's Power [Grace-Gift]((This feat is a bit over-complicated, but it is only a first draft.))
While you live, you protect those you hold dear... your death releases your soul from the need to maintain its connection to your body, allowing it to become a conduit of great power for the energy of the divine. One shining perfect moment of giving.
Prerequisites: Grace Gift level 17, Four [Grace-Gift] feats (note that this is a smaller subset of the feats that a grace-gift may take as bonus feats).
Benefits: If you are slain by an enemy you may choose to activate this ability at the moment of your death. If you do so, several effects occur:

You take an amount of burn to both your constitution and your strength equal to your grace-gift level. This burn is recovered at the normal rate for a living creature engaged in moderate daily activity while you are dead. If your constitution score would be lower than 1 then all attempts to revivify you fail, but only half the xp's and/or material components of such efforts fail(in the case of charged magic items the lost charge(s) may be restored by anyone with the correct item creation feat and spells at half GP and xp costs), and the person attempting the revivification gets the impression that you can be revived in approximately a certain number of days. The GM determines the amount to report by secretly rolling a number of d3s equal to half the number of days remaining rounded down. If the number of days remaining is odd he should add 1d2 to this result.
The duration on any of any of your grace-gift powers currently in operation whose total duration is two rounds or less are extended by a number of rounds equal to half your grace-gift level.
Similarly, the durations of any of your grace-gift effects that are continuous continue for half your grace-gift level in hours.
You may use any of your Grace-gift spell-like abilities that were NOT currently in operation at the moment of your death (including the transferal sub-ability of Shield of the Soul and similar) once each at the moment of your death. In the case of Gift of Shielding the damage is transferred to your corpse. The duration of all such abilities is 1 round and may not be extended by any means. When calculating how many creatures you may apply Gift of Breath, Gift of Tolerance, or similar abilities to you may not reduce your constitution below 1 but each such ability is considered separately and, do not count anything other than the specific ability in question in each case that would decrease your constitution (such as damage, drain, penalties, or burn from other sources), note specifically that this includes the constitution burn from using this ability.
Related to the above: If you have the Touch of the Grace-Gift feat you may distribute your remaining healing ability among any allies you wish who are within 5' per grace-gift level without regard for the normal per-round limit. If you have Improved Touch of the Grace-Gift then this healing is instead a total amount equal to 4 times your grace-gift level times your charisma SCORE (or your grace-gift level times 10, whichever is greater) and you may apply up to number of temporary hitpoints equal to twice your Grace-Gift level to anyone you heal to full hitpoints (or was already at full hitpoints). These excess hitpoints count against your pool of healing, and last the usual duration for temporary hit-points.
All allies within 5' per your grace-gift level gain a +2 bonus to hit OR to AC for one round, as if you had successfully used the Aid Another action on each of their foes. You may select which type of bonus is received individually for each such ally.
Your body can not become an undead, deathless, or be otherwise transformed as a direct result of your death (such as if you are killed by a ghoul or vampire), and gains spell-resistance equal to twice your grace-gift level against all attempts by people other than your allies (as known to you at the moment of your death) to raise it as an undead, cast speak with dead, or similar spells or abilities on it.
Any creature that consumes your corpse (including by your dying after having been swallowed whole or similar) must make a will-save with a DC equal to 10+your total bonus on will saves, not counting spells or magic items. If they fail this check their attitude becomes indifferent to all your allies for a number of rounds equal to your grace-gift level. So all encompassing is this effect that immunity to Mind-Affecting effects only grants a +10 bonus on the will save. This affect is broken if the creature is harmed by any of your allies, even indirectly.
You receive your normal class-based spell-resistance against Soul Bind or any equivalent effect despite having transfered your spell-resistance as part of this feat. Even if you are successfully subjected to such an effect, all counter-divination spells and effects used to conceal the location of the gem automatically fail (Including placing the gem in an Anti-magic Field if that would normally cause a problem for such divination).
The caster level of any spell used in an attempt to revive you is doubled, and the cost of any material or XP components is for such a spell is halved (only half XP is consumed, and if more than the necessary amount of material component is provided, only the halved amount is actually consumed).

Special: A character with at least 17 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
Master of Motion [Grace-gift]
You do not need to be so close to your allies to speed them on their ways.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 9, Ability to grant Move Actions with Gift of Time.
Benefits: When granting movement rate increases you grant a +30' speed, rather than a +20' speed, with the same limitations about doubling. In addition, when doing this, or granting a move action your range is increased to Medium (100 feet + 10 feet per caster level).

The ranges of all other applications of Gift of Time that you have are doubled.
Special: A character with at least 9 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Obscured Casting [Grace-Gift]
You have become adept at disguising the true nature of your spells so that your foes do not know where the weak point of your allies is.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift Level 1, Bluff 1 Rank, Sleight of Hand 1 Rank, Spellcraft 1 Rank
Benefits: Add your Grace-Gift caster level to the DCs of all spellcraft checks to identify a Grace-Gift spell you are casting. Alternatively, you may substitute a Bluff check for the DC for any particular casting. This second option is mostly of use to multiclassed Grace-Gifts.

You also gain a Grace-Gift spell that does absolutely nothing, and may be cast as a Swift, Move, Standard, Full-Round, or Full-Round+Swift action. You may use this spell at-will, and as many times per round as you like. The spell-level of this ability is select for each use, and can be anywhere from 0 to a maximum of half your class level (minimum 1, maximum 9).
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Plague-Bane [Grace-Gift]
There are diseases that can bring a nation to its knees, infecting more people per day than clerics may cure. Every wise king who values the lives of his people(if only for what they provide him) has a healthy amount of fear of these things... those diseases fear YOU.
Prerequisites: Master of the Healing Ward class ability, Heal 6 ranks
Benefits: The increase to the number of people you can provide long-term care for and treat for diseases (and things that count as diseases due to Hands of the Healer if you have that ability) changes from one half your grace-gift level to twice your grace-gift level.
In addition, for purposes of saves versus mundane disease (IE not intrensically supernatural or magical in nature, and not in the process of being inflicted via Contagion or similar), your Gift of Resistance class feature provides its full benefits out to a range of 30 feet, and the reduced benefits out to a range of 100 feet.
((specify rules, preferably as a sub-spoiler under Gift of Resistance for how much of the time you have to use Gift of Resistance for it to apply to a daily saving throws against disease.))
Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Improved Plague-Bane [Grace-Gift]
You fear no disease.
Prerequisites: Master of the Healing Ward class ability, Plague Bane, Heal 6 ranks
Benefits: You become immune to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
The ranges for Gift of Resistance purposes of saves versus mundane disease further increases, providing full benefit out to a range of 100 feet, and the reduced benefits out to a range of 500 feet.
Against NON-mundane diseases, the ranges are instead 30 feet for full effect and 100 feet for the reduced effect.
Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. If you had previously taken Disease Resistant as a bonus feat, you may retrain it to any other feat you could have taken at that level.

??Protecting Paladin?? [Grace-gift]((VERY rough draft, just jotting a rough sketch down.))
To both strike down evil and lend defense to others are two sides of the same coin.
Prerequisites: Divine Grace ability from BOTH Grace-Gift AND Paladin (Except this means that you either need to be triple-classed, human, or eating XP penalties... well I guess I could put it on the I list and you could spend a bonus feat on it).
Benefits: Removes multi-classing induced caps from all Grace-Gift abilities.
+1 to all saves? (to compensate for redundancy of Divine Grace)
If the character has the ability to turn undead as a result of his paladin levels then his grace-gift levels stack with his paladin level to determine the effectiveness of that ability. (Simply because paladin turning is weak enough already, so why not throw them a bone?)
If the character has the spell-like ability to Remove Disease as a result of his paladin levels then grace-gift levels stack with paladin levels for determining how many times per week they can do so.
Can take more levels of Paladin even if you take grace-gift levels afterward.
Stack for Mount (once you get mount? Or stack towards mount anyway?)
Stack for Defensive Strike and, if the grace-gift has the ability, Improved Defensive Strike.
Stack for Lay On Hands and Touch of the Grace-Gift points add to Lay On Hands pool (which limits what they can be used for, but allows offensive uses).
Stack for number of Smite Evils per day and maybe even for damage. (Yes, I realize this means you can end up adding charisma to your to-hit multiple times a day... assuming you can smite on an AoO, which if you can't I should consider having this feat allow, but smites aren't often enough a day anyway, so I don't think I care.)
Stack for Hands of the Healer (it is so slow anyway, and you ARE losing a bit of spell-casting).

...... so basically it stacks for everything on the paladin side except BAB and spell-casting? Seems a bit much, but then again most of the abilities are either central to the paladin's contribution to the mix (Smite Evil) or so weak that it doesn't matter much (Turn undead). Could probably drop the save bonus, and the turn undead stuff.
Special: A character grace-gift who meets the requirements listed above may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

??Protector's Reward [Grace-Gift]??(This feat is a rough draft at this time, and I do not consider it ready to play without further consideration. If I had to guess I would say that it is UNDER powered.)
After much self-sacrifice for your allies to protect them from their enemies you have been granted a token amount of balancing to the karmic scales.
Prerequisites: Defensive Strike class feature granting at least a +4? bonus to damage.
Benefits: Each time you deal damage with a defensive strike or GET OFF THEM!!! to a true foe who presents a true threat (both as determined by the GM) to you or your allies add whichever of the following is the SMALLEST to a running tally:

The amount of damage you dealt
Your damage bonus from Defensive Strike for that specific attack (so this will be smaller if you are using GET OFF THEM!!!).
The subjectís hit points prior to being struck, +10 if the target had a constitution score. In other words the minimum amount of damage that would be required to kill/destroy the target.

At the start of each of your turns, and at the end of combat, you are healed for one quarter(one half?) of the amount of the tally and the running tally is then reduced to zero. Hitpoints in excess of your maximum gained at the start of your turn are instead gained as temporary hitpoints which last until the end of combat. Excess hitpoints gained at the end of combat are lost.
This is a supernatural ability.
Special: A character with at least 5? levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
((Change this from 1/4 to 1/2... or maybe 1/3? Anyway, looking at "Aura of Triumph" this doesn't look so powerful after all.))

Sacrificial Defense [Grace-gift] ((Poorly written, but should give the idea. Need to fix this later.))
You take down threats to those you protect, even at the cost of yourself.
Prerequisites: Enhanced Defensive Strike with option for +2d6 damage dealing 1d6 damage to you, Grace-gift level 7
Benefits: When making a defensive strike you may increase the number of d6s of damage you take when using that option by an amount up to one fifth of your grace-gift level. For each additional d6 of damage you take, increase the damage of that defensive strike by +2d6
Special: A character with at least 7 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Shielded Defender [Grace-Gift]
You can work around the problems of wearing a bit more protection.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift Level 1, Proficiency with at least bucklers, small shields, and large shields.
Benefits: You do not suffer an arcane spell failure chance for grace-gift spells or spell-like abilities for buckers, small shields, or large shields, and retain your deflection bonus while using them. You may tumble while wearing a shield, but if you do so, the armor check penalty from the shield to the tumble roll is doubled and you do not gain any benefit from the shield during your tumbling movement.
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Stoic Protector [Grace-gift]
Your aren't sociable, but you are there when you are needed.
Prerequisites: Dwarf, Grace-gift level 1
Benefits: Replace your charisma(including modifier and bonus) with your wisdom(ditto), for the purpose of all grace-gift special abilities and grace-gift feats(including, for instance, the kicker if you take Combat Reflexes as a grace-gift feat).
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Touch of the Grace-Gift [Grace-gift]
You are able to slowly repair harm to your allies... or even yourself.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 1
Benefits: A grace-gift may heal wounds with a touch (his own or those of others) by touch. Each day he can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her grace-gift level ◊ her Charisma bonus ◊ 4, provided her charisma modifier is 1 or greater.((Tweak this to (Charisma-10, min 1)*Level*2 so that odd points matter?)) Otherwise the amount per day is equal to twice his grace-gift level. A grace-gift may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesnít have to use it all at once, however this ability may not be used on any creature that lacks both an intelligence and a constitution score, and only a number of points of healing equal to half the grace-gifts level (minimum 1) may be healed per use of this ability. Using touch of the grace-gift is a full-round spell-like with somatic components that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Note that this ability CANNOT be used to harm undead (or anything else), and heals undead (and characters with the tomb tainted soul feat, etc) perfectly well. It also is fully effective for healing any construct that has either an intelligence or constitution score (or both).
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Disaster's Bane [Grace-Gift]
By means of this gift a hundred men may be saved in a city struck by earth-quake.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 5, Touch of the Grace-Gift
Benefits: This ability gives an additional option when using Touch of the Grace-Gift: a burst centered on you.

By default this option heals up to a number of creatures up to your grace-gift caster level within close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) of you. The TOTAL amount ACTUALLY healed is limited by and deducted from your daily limit of healing. You may elect to heal less than your normal limit per target per usage in order to conserve your per-day limit.

When using this option you may elect to take one point of constitution burn (or charisma burn if you do not have a constitution score). If this burn takes effect then the range of this ability is increased to Long (400ft + 40ft), penetrates all non-magical materials and barriers, and can effect an unlimited number of targets. Magical materials, other than force effects, are penetrated as long as the total amount of such material(s) in a direct line between you and the individual target is less than your grace-gift caster-level in feet. You may specifically include or exclude any creature you have line of sight to and can clearly identify. Other creatures can be included or excluded based on creature type (thus allowing the option to avoid expending healing on half-crushed cockroaches and/or animals). For targets you can't see or clearly identify this ability is automatically fooled by magical disguises with regard to creature type, and requires a caster-level check versus the disguise check to determine if is fooled by mundane disguises with regards to creature type. It is not fooled by any form of concealment, cover, invisibility(Including superior invisibility), the Dark-Stalker feat etc.

In either case the grace-gift may elect to heal no hit-point damage, but only stabilize dying creatures targetted. In such a case the ability consumes points of Touch of the Grace-Gift based on the Grace-Gift's heal checks modifier per the following table.

Heal Check Modifierup to +1011-1516-2021-2526-3031-3536-4041-4546-5051-55

Targets stablized per point of Touch of the G.G. consumed234567891011


Special: A character with at least 5 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Improved Touch of the Grace-Gift [Grace-gift]
The well of healing within you is bottomless.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 13
Benefits: There is now no per-day cap on the amount of healing Touch of the Grace-Gift may provide.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Grant Mystic Strength [Grace-gift]
You have a measure of the power of your less self-sacrificial comrades.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 1, must worship as a cleric not devoted to an abstract concept (usually meaning a single god)
Benefits: You may bolster and dispel turning of undead and deathless as a cleric of your level. This makes no distinction regarding alignment. Thus a good-aligned Grace-Gift could bolster a ghost as they seek to stop the cleric of Hextor who slew the fellow before he can lay waste to the home town that the now-ghost was on his way to warn when he was killed, and an evil grace-gift infiltrating an adventuring party in hopes of slowly corrupting them over the course of years could dispel the turning of the Deathless sorcerer among their number. It can even effect both Deathless and Undead at the same time with a single use.

These "turning" attempts may power feats, class abilities, prestige classes, etc just as if they were turning/rebuking uses of the creature type they apply to, with the exception that all costs in daily uses (such as for divine metamagic) are doubled except for feats with the [Grace-Gift] tag.

This feat does not grant the ability to turn, destroy, rebuke, or command any creature.

In all other regards this functions just as if they were turning/rebuking uses of the creature type they apply to. This includes, but is not limited to, benefiting from feats (such as Extra Turning), and qualifying for feats, prestige classes, and skill tricks.
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Turn Away Harm[Grace-gift]
You can cause some threats to stand back.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 1, Grant Mystic Strength, must worship as a cleric not devoted to an abstract concept (usually meaning a single god)
Benefits: Your daily uses of Grant Mystic Strength may also be used to turn, but never destroy, rebuke, or command, undead or deathless as a cleric of your alignment who worships whatever it is that you worship.
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. See below for synergy with the Grant Strength to All feat.


Grant Strength to All[Grace-gift]
You can protect a broader range of allies
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 1, Grant Mystic Strength, must worship as a cleric not devoted to an abstract concept (usually meaning a single god)
Benefits: Your "turning" attempts from Grant Mystic Strength may now be used to bolster or dispel turning of any type of creature. You may even mix creature types in a single bolstering or dispel turning attempt. Naturally, this is most useful for Outsiders and Elementals, but if you ever encounter a creature capable of turning/destroying Humanoid[Human], and need to counter that ability, you will be ready... :smallconfused:
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

In addition, if you have, or later acquire, the Turn Away Harm feat, you may select either one type of elemental [Air, Water, Earth, Fire, Shadow, etc], Animals, Plants, or Outsiders with a single alignment type that is opposite of you on that axis. Your daily uses of Grant Mystic Strength may be used to turn that type of creature but never destroy, rebuke, or command it.



Turn Away Harm, Improved[Grace-gift]

Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 3, Grant Mystic Strength, Grant Strength to All, Turn Away Harm, must worship as a cleric not devoted to an abstract concept (usually meaning a single god)
Benefits: You may select two additional creature types to be able to turn, as per the restrictions on Grant Strength to All.
Special: A grace-gift of at least 3 class levels may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. You may take this feat more than once, adding two new creature types each time.

A feat to maybe reference for benchmarks (not very granular though):
http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Battlefield_Surgeon_%283.5e_Feat%29

DracoDei
2012-06-25, 04:39 PM
Suggestions for How to Play a Grace-Gift
I am just going to go through the races then class abilities individually, since I already said the overall tone of the class in many places, plus if you don't get it by reading the abilities then you probably don't have the grasp of general D&D mechanics not to slow down a live group (PbP would be something else again).

Races
Changeling:
Roleplay:
Not a particularly good match, but there isn't any particular reason a Neutral Good or Lawful Neutral changeling couldn't be a Grace-Gift. One good application is as a body-guard who simply seems to be a passing acquaintance or that night's date (or hired muscle too thick-headed to be a spellcaster)... or as a body double, causing would be kidnappers or assassins to hit the wrong target.
Mechanics:
Bonuses to sense motive, intimidate, and saves against sleep and charm help. Throw in a rogue level every so often (but not so soon it ends up hurting your AC) for the skill points if you want to pull the tricks with disguise and bluff I mentioned above.
Mechanical Summary:
A blander version of Human.


Dwarf:
Roleplay: Excellent match! Dwarven stoicism and emphasis on community work wonders... so much so that I even made a dwarf-specific feat to help them be more mechanically viable (was thinking constitution substitution, but that is TOO good... looks like it will be wisdom).

Mechanics: That charisma penalty STINGS. Eat your feat tax(Stoic Protector) and be happy for the bonus to a second-tier ability score.

More specifically on how +2 Con helps you out: You can get good mileage out of the dwarf constitution bonus for Gift of Tolerance, Gift of Shielding, Gift of Breath, and, if you don't have a better option in the party, Gift of Life.
Tumble takes a hit from the slow movement, but you could go with it and carry more gear/be more free with your use of Carry the Burden since it won't slow your movement rate further (actually this would be among the best reasons to go dwarf with this class).

Darkvision means you will usually be able to remain aware of the larger tactical situation and make your AoOs (baring magical darkness of course).

The saving throw bonuses give you a bit of padding for when you use Gift of Resistance. To-hit helps AoOs, and the dodge bonus allows you padding for giving away your Divine Protection bonus. Favored Class(Fighter) means if you need a feat or two to beef up your AoOs after 4th level you can dip for one or two levels.

Mechanical Summary: Not the best choice, but hardly a total loss, especially if you take the feat I created to address this problem: Stoic Defender.


Elf:
Roleplay:
Good tendencies in the race make this sensible, if not the most obvious choice. If you want to play up the elven haughtiness then don't be humble to the party about your contributions ("Good grief, you lot wouldn't last a day without me!" etc etc). If you want to play up the "close to nature" angle, just act more like a druid than a cleric in how you present yourself. (Any bronies out their should feel free to channel Fluttershy in her facet of animal-healer.).

Mechanical:
Plus Dexterity, minus constitution... AC and reflex saves become somewhat "cheaper" to give away when dealing with non-hit-point effects; fortitude saves get a small hit. The con-penalty abilities of the class become harsher. Dexterity also helps tumble, most importantly meaning you get to the point where you don't even have to roll the DC 15 standard tumble check to negate AoOs a level earlier.

Low-Light Vision isn't going to help as much as you might think since you don't need to see your allies clearly to target them, and your AoOs are likely to be happening within range of the party's light source's.

Sleep immunity and no need for natural sleep means you will never be literally caught sleeping on guard as you watch over your charges.

Spot and Listen bonuses mean you will get to act during a small percentage more of surprise rounds at low level. At higher levels the DCs will likely get too high, and it probably isn't worth cross classing it.

Consider going for a non-lethal weapon for your grace-gift pick, especially the net, since it offers the most divergent option, and stick to the longsword for your AoOs (remember, the bonus damage from defensive strike gets multiplied on a critical so getting twice as many criticals is nothing to sneeze at). Get a long bow around 3rd level for if you have nothing better to do with your standard action while facing flying enemies with ranged attacks and piddling enough melee and reach that the arcanist will be GLAD if one of them decides to close with him.

The favored class of Wizard isn't going to do much for you, unless you are just dipping Grace-Gift for the defensive bonuses. I have tried to discourage this mechanically, but if you can take the hit to your caster level etc, who am I to stop you?

Conclusion:
Reasonable choice.

Gnome:
Roleplay:
The happy-go-lucky nature of a gnome works well with someone who laughs off whatever life throws at him and helps others do the same.
Mechanics:
Well, you aren't going to be using Carry the Burden much, especially not in combat. The constitution bonus helps with a variety of things, from hitpoints and fortitude saves (so you can afford to be generous), gift of tolerance, and gift of life. Gift of Breath is actually weakened more by the small size than it is helped by the constitution bonus unless you take the Heavy Breather feat once or twice, and/or acquire an Iridescent Spindle Ioun Stone thus dropping the penalty to where it can't get any lower anyway.

Low movement rate limits your mobility to get to where you are needed, especially if you try to tumble... consider investing in Dodge->Mobility.

Low-Light vision still doesn't help the class much (see comments under "elf"). Still, it combines well with Dancing Lights for emergency use.

Bonus against illusions is nice when up against multi-targetting illusions (including the Shadow Conjuration line).

To-hit bonus helps your Defensive Strikes, and you get to be generous with the AC against giants...
Listen checks help you act during surprise rounds at low levels, don't bother cross-classing it to try to keep up.

The Racial SLAs... well, if you really do want to play Fluttershy in a humanoid body, here is your Speak with Animals even if it is pretty nerfed.

Favored class makes sense thematically for dipping in either direction, but no particular synergy for actual use. More of a "cover all the bases" type build-decision than a "use power A from Class X with power B from class Y" type thing.

Summary:
SLIGHTLY below average.

Half-Elf:
Roleplay:
Strength in unity from the product of an inter-species union. It works. It would be easy to play that idea up, especially in a party with the usual degree of racially diversity that one sees in D&D.
Mechanics:
Ability-score-wise these are a more well-round, as opposed to focused, version of the elf.
Slightly lower spot and listen (and search) plus actually sleeping means you aren't as watchful as a full-blood elf.
That longsword would have been nice, but you can drop a feat on EWP(Spiked Chain) and have better area control anyway.
Diplomacy bonus should make you a decent party Face if you invest in Diplomacy ranks, so go for it.
Summary:
Solid choice for social maneuvering heavy campaigns. Not bad for other campaigns, but nothing outstanding.


Half-Orc:
Roleplay:
Very counter-intuitive, but after getting rocks (figurative or literal) thrown at you by both sides through-out your life they you both value the few friends you DO have even more and have learned to endure.

Mechanics:
Your AoOs and Carry the Burden are going to be your strong-point here. Go for the gusto and take EWP(Spiked Chain), and as many feats that help your Defensive Strikes as possible (note that Energy Defense ISN'T on the list).

Darkvision means you can almost always see your targets for the AoOs. Still, given the existence of fog and magical darkness, Blind-Fight may still have a place in your build.

Summary:
This only works well if you want to emphasize the AoOs.

Human:
Roleplay:
Fit-any-role race fits any role. Not much to say here.
Mechanics:
There are many many grace-gift specific feats*. Sure you get a lot of bonus feats, especially the first four levels, but one more never hurts. My test character is/was a human, and I was still so tight for feats I ended up being mildly cheesy and taking Power Attack at first level, despite the fact that he couldn't have used it due to having a +0 BAB. Then again I was trying to get as many of the class specific feats I had at the time in there, and so I ended up with a very AoO-centric build. My total attack bonus seemed pretty high, and I was going with a Spiked Chain(mostly for the reach), so I threw in Power Attack to compliment the two-hander.

The extra skill-points don't hurt either, although they could be seen as more of a reason to not put such a high score into intelligence than anything else. If you are trying to be the party Face or keep up movement-wise if you are the major source of flight in the party(and thus can't fly often yourself making jump and climb important) then you will need more skill-points.

*Not to mention the Combat Reflexes(with Charisma kicker)->Blocker pair you will need to get the benefit of your Mobile Defender class feature at 13th level. Feel free to NOT put the emphasis on AoOs though. In case you hadn't noticed this class has a lot of features.
Summary:
A good choice.

Kalashtar:
Roleplay:

Mechanics:
Save bonuses help you stay protecting the right people and the social bonuses help too, especially if you don't dump-stat intelligence.
Mindlink is somewhat useful for giving unheard warnings.
Power point means you can take psionic feats, if that is where you want to go with things.
Mechanical Summary:
If you are going to be the party face, this a good choice.

Mepholk:
Roleplay:
As followers of Allurehn with her emphasis on benign eugenics you might think that Mepholk would be a poor match for the Grace-Gift... you would be wrong. Breeding out humans requires larger numbers (plus recovering from their under-prolificness in the past if that is still going on in your campaign). Besides which, Allurehn values a persons morals above their survivability and as such making the Good alignment a survival trait is right up her alley.

A "don't mess with me and I don't mess with you" skunk-like philosophy can mesh well with Defensive Strike (and the GET OFF OF THEM!!! feat if you take it).

Mechanics:
+2 charisma in exchange for a single racial hit-die. Your abilities will be stronger than a humans, but you will be getting new options a little later. Since most of your options scale perfectly well, that second part isn't as much of a problem as you might think at first glance. This trade-off is especially good for someone trying to ease into the class a bit since you have slightly fewer abilities to worry about at lower levels. At higher levels change "slightly" to "VERY slightly".

The racial skills don't include any of your Big Three (Concentration, Heal, Tumble) but include several support skills such as Climb, Jump, and Swim. Intimidate, Spot, and Listen are also nice, but unfortunately they don't add up on your Grace-Gift class list. If you include the +2 to balance from the tail, you are getting the same total bonuses to skills as you would from your SECOND level of Grace-Gift, and your FIRST level of Grace-Gift (or another class) counts as your first level for purposes of getting the quadrupling.

Maximizing a d8 instead of a d12 for your first level hurts, but you will get over it.

Bonus feat and skill points are straight off of human.

The spray looks nice, but since it is a ranged attack your GM might not allow it to be used for AoOs, even if they are happening within your melee reach. You will need to sink two feats into immunity... see if you can re-train those at higher levels when the party is immune to poison from other sources. Speaking of which, remember that when you spray NOBODY is happy and you do like to stay close to your allies.... Of course, if you want to take one for the team, you can always combine it with Gift of Resistance to increase their fortitude saves. Shenanigans with attempting to use Gift of Tolerance to yo-yo your constitution between the spraying a fortitude save caused by being within the range of the stench when spraying deserve GM smiting. Checking with your GM about using that ability AFTER the initial saving throws are resolved.

Summary:
Competitive with Human(at least if I designed them right...). If you are overwhelmed by the options of the Grace-Gift, this can help limit them a bit.

Shifter:
Roleplay:
You put the "bear" in "mama bear". Slightly atypical alignment, but adventurers are going to be at least a BIT odd usually anyway. Followers of Boldrei are quite plausible to be Grace-Gifts, what with her Community domain. The Traveler could also fit a Chaotic Good Grace-Gift.

Mechanics:
Charisma hit stings.

Shifting doesn't stop casting, so get a trait that lets you boost your strength or constitution when you need it, and consider getting a second for the other ability score. Beasthide helps with the tanking, and Long-tooth is better for making AoOs (if you are going to do without a weapon for some reason) than Razorclaw.

Low-light vision helps see enemies coming far enough away to react when your group is carrying light sources into dark areas.

Summary:
Not as bad as you might think, but not good.

Warforged:
Roleplay:
Oh look, someone decided to go more in the direction of the Shield Guardian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shieldGuardian.htm) than the Iron Golem when looking for the basis for a living construct. Makes sense to me.

Mechanics:
Mithril Body looks like it will be your friend. Good thing too, because that hit to charisma effects your AC. One point less from Divine Grace and another point on will saves from the wisdom hit is compensated by the immunities and resistances. Still, you have less AC to give away. Constitution bonus helps with the tanking.
If you think you need Mithril Fluidity, just repeat Admiral Akbar's famous works and take Skill Focus[Tumble] instead, since that is the only dexterity based skill you need, and your dexterity isn't going to be high enough for the increased Maximum Dexterity Bonus to matter.

No need to sleep means you can keep watch.

Touch of the Grace-Gift is very good for keeping yourself patched up since the cleric/druid spells are half-strength on you. Get the Improved version if you find you need it.

If you are going to be playing a campaign with a lot of underwater stuff and your GM is ok with you not rusting/rotting or getting infested with barnacles then this can be a good choice since Gift of Breath doesn't actually require you to breath so you can keep other people survivable, albeit with a fairly heavy penalty.

Summary: Better than the Dwarf, but still not the best choice for most applications.



Ability Scores:
Here is the direction that the class most obviously lends itself to. Variations are VERY possible (although Charisma should always be the highest priority).
Cha > Str > Con > Dex ~= Wis ~= Int
At higher levels, wisdom may be less of a priority, given Matchless Loyalty. It really depends on how realistic your GM is about having enemies who don't know your specific capabilities order you to attack your friends rather than buff them after they charm you (noting that buffing may be a good idea for them even before you get that ability).

Class Attributes and Features:
Skills/Int:
In my view the three "must have" skills for this class are:
Heal - Many of your abilities rely on this. Max this at first level, and don't stop maxing it until you can make every DC for every one of your abilities for your level that the GM can reasonably throw at you (noting you can often take 10 on some of the rolls). This becomes a much higher number once you get ?Accelerated Treatment?.
Concentration - Short-range buffs plus caster means you are going to need this. If you can't make all your defensive casting checks without rolling you need to put all the skill points you can into this.
Tumble - You are going to need to move around a lot to set up your own AoOs, and ESPECIALLY to get from one party member to another to put your buffs where they are needed. 5 ranks in this is also a prerequisite for taking Combat Expertise as a bonus feat, but that shouldn't be a deciding factor. In any case, you can perhaps scrape by with not-so-many ranks in this if you want to rely on your hitpoints and high AC... although your real forte's in AC are Touch and Flat-Footed. Tumbling around opponents is important, but you won't often need to go through them unless you are trying to set up flanking for the rogue. You should consider doing that since your AC is probably better than his, and you have more hitpoints, but getting further away from the party means you can't use as many of your SLAs. If you have skill points to spare, drop 5 into Jump for the synergy bonus.

You may also want 4 ranks in spellcraft so you can take the Mage-Slayer, Lesser feat.

Other than that, you can decide between social and mobility skills as you like. Remember that you may easily become the only person in the party who CAN'T fly when the occasion demands it at a certain range of levels if the party relies on your "Carry the Burden" ability. For this reason Climb, Jump, and Balance may be of use to you. Knowledge skills are an option if the ones you want are on your list. Knowledge(Religion) fits if your character is to be tied to a specific deity for his or her powers.

BAB:
Poor. This isn't to say that you won't be using a weapon, but usually if you are using it during your own turn you are doing something wrong. When it is NOT your turn, you will be relying on Defensive Strike and Enhanced Defensive Strike for most of your competency. Many class-specific feats exist to further improve this, not to mention Combat Reflexes and Blocker, which you want to have by 13th level unless you don't mind having a underleveled bonus feat. Of course, a lot of the bonus feats for low levels are pretty darn good even at higher levels...

Hit-Dice and Saves:
Yep, you are TOUGH. More-so once you get Divine Grace at 2nd level. Of course, like many things about this class, this isn't something you will always have. Consider having at least two layers of defense for everything, allowing you to completely give away one layer to an ally.

Weapon Proficiencies:
Long-spear may be your best choice for damage, unless you decide to improve your survivability when using Gift of Shielding and Divine Protection by dropping a feat(or getting a mithril shield), and forgetting about Tumble to go sword-and-board (since your strength bonus becomes insignificant to your damage at later levels so 1 vs 1.5 times strength mod is not that big a deal). If so, go for the morning star for a "real" weapon choice, or a sickle if you are going to be taking Spiked-Chain at third level so if you get swallowed whole you can cut your way out. Alternatively if you really want to play up the "nice guy" angle, or like taking prisoners, consider the a net, or a sap. In the case of the sap, hope you don't run into too many undead trying to get past you to the squishies before you can take EWP(Spiked Chain). If your campaign is going to be awash in zombies and other stuff with DR/Slashing and you need every bit of damage you can get, then go for the sickle. Quarterstaff for two weapon fighting is quite frankly insane since none of your attack options benefit from it. The bolas (which you get for free) are the only weapon worth using during your turn, but you may want Quickdraw if you still want to be able to make AoOs.

Armor Proficiencies: Light Armor. Cast in it, tumble in it, get mithril chain-shirt to tumble better in it, love it. Maybe a mithril breastplate later if you need the extra point of AC more than the tumble checks.

A General Rule:
Some stuff about how you cast. Boring but necessary. Doesn't mean much on its own so I have nothing more to say here. Although this IS about the right place to mention a few things that apply generally to the abilities, but don't have to do with the casting mechanics in this "ability".

First off most of your in-battle class features use swift actions, so you are going to be more mobile (you could even attack on the second or later turn of a combat if you have absolutely nothing better to do with your standard action and don't see a defensive strike as likely that round).

Secondly, if you are going to transfer something, it is USUALLY the best idea not to go by half measures. It takes the same action to give a 1 point bonus to fortitude saves as it does to give a 5 point bonus, so go for the gusto, especially with multi-targetting abilities.

Aura:
Yeah, be proud of your alignment... don't forget to bluff that you actually have more hit-dice than you actually do if it would be useful.

Bonus Feats:
Enjoy those first four levels, the bonus feats get much much sparser later on. Feats are where most of the flexibility in building the class comes in, especially in the long-run. Mobility skills (other than tumble) become less useful at higher levels, and your other special features don't allow any customization at all. Other skills are fine, but aren't going to really personalize you AS a grace-gift. Find what special features you like and select feats to augment those. Many of the normally under-powered feats such as Iron Will MAY find new life breathed into them by the fact that you can use them to protect yourself after you give away bonuses. On the other hand, I DON'T promise that all the original feats are equally good. The Toughness line for example probably isn't that great at the levels you get access to it, and Improved Divine Grace is basically a consolation prize for going whole-hog into buffing your saves and then ending up with spell-resistance.
If you are going to take Combat Reflexes, be SURE you take it as a bonus feat!
If the party doesn't have a more normal healbot, the most important feat you will need is Touch of the Grace-Gift. Consider upgrading it at 13th level, depending on the party's needs.


(Note: A lot of the following stuff got rolled into "Least Gifts" for organizational purposes. That didn't change anything of how they worked, it was mostly to make the main table easier to understand. Of course there may have been some tweaks independent of that that might effect utility in ways that mean the following might be slightly out of date on a few points.)
Divine Protection/Gift of Protection:
And now we get to our first feature that truly embodies this class... You get some really nice AC. Normally you have no need for a ring of protection +X... consider getting one anyway, since good things are meant to be shared, and your AC isn't meant to be hoarded (if you think they are, you are probably trying to turn this class into a gish... I suspect you may have a hard time of that, but DO tell me how it goes). Work to stand where you won't need what you are giving away, but can reach those who do. This may not always be possible of course, but do it when possible.

At later levels you get to change the type. This is especially important when using the AoE effect you get a bit later, and also makes that ring of protection +X suddenly fully useful again. Other than that, just try to stay with whatever works for whoever will be within range and can actually use the AC.

Gift of Resistance:
Your base saves aren't just for you. Share them with EVERYONE (this is the only combat ability of yours that starts out able to effect more than one ally)! At later levels you get to pick what to give up. Reflex is especially cheap for you since half of the reflex saves you will be making as a PC will probably just be to mitigate damage, and your d12 hit-dice aren't there to give a rarely used die-type some love... don't bother with the Cloak of Resistance +X* except as a secondary quality of your Cloak of Charisma +X (provided you can afford to be saving up for one or outright buy one), since that will boost your saves, AC and many of your special features. Note that you CAN use this ability outside combat, so feel free to boost the guy on point or disarming the traps. Of course then you have to decide whether to be 10 feet back or 30. Depends on if you are expecting AoE traps, especially those that you don't get to eat with your d12 hit-dice.
*Vest of Resistance +X OTOH can be found in Magic Item Compendium, and is a reasonable purchase AFTER you have the charisma-boosting item.

Gift of Shielding:
Again, your hit-points aren't just for yourself, but remember that this can actually result in more total damage to the party until both you and your target shell out 50 GP for a platinum ring. Not as much of a problem at 1st, and maybe 2nd and 3rd level. The hit-point cap should give you no problems until then, but don't forget to get them when the time comes. Deciding between this and Divine Protection (or Gift of Resistance for reflex save-for-halfs) is mostly a matter of statistics. If you are expecting a mix of attack-roll and saving-throw based damage sources, go with this. For attacks that require an attack roll, but don't deal hit-point damage this is almost always a bad choice (use Helpful to give them a +2 to AC if you feel a need to make a "profit" on total AC in the party). For lower hitpoint allies Gift of Shielding is the safer choice (given the existence of natural 20's on to-hit rolls) unless the attack would have a significant chance to do so much damage that they would be dead/KOed even at half damage.

Gift of Tolerance:
Got a low-con character in the party, or just someone having bad luck with saving throws against temperature extremes? Throw this on them if you can spare the fort save, hitpoints, and concentration check. If the GM has their head screwed on straight the target will count as "out of the heat/cold" and will start to recover the non-lethal damage over the hours. Sidenote: And is it just me or is it backwards that laying down with no blanket in a warm room is a better cure for mild to moderate hypothermia than pacing the room energetically? If heading into a sauna-like nest of mephits, or icewater, don't hesitate to use this pre-emptively. You have the hit-points to eat the non-lethal damage if you fail your own saves, and it isn't like you are going to be doing any charging. Light armor means you are going to slow the party down less if it comes to running for your lives than if the guy in heavy armor gets hypothermia.

Swift to Protect:
Planning on playing to the class's strengths? Then use this every combat, unless you have a GOOD reason not to for a specific one.

Defensive Strike:
Say hello to the first half of the pair of abilities that are the only reason you even bother carrying a weapon better than a dagger. Admittedly it doesn't come into its own until second level, but not bad. The class is already pretty frontloaded so you can afford to be patient. This ability means you don't have to invest TOO heavily in your weapon. Even masterwork doesn't stack with your class features.

Don't forget to look through the feats to see if you want anything to augment this. Don't let your poor BAB fool you, Weapon Focus is still a poor idea if you plan on spending less than half of your adventuring career as a first level character (perfectly possible in a "screw the XPs, we just like roleplaying" campaign). Combat Reflexes is the obvious choice, but don't bother to get it if your GM prefers smaller number of monsters in his encounters and you don't think you can often spare a full-round action to grant yourself +2 to hit and +5 to Tumble DCs to ignore your AoO. Remember that full-round action DOESN'T include your swift action, which is what you use for most of your casting. If you are expecting many spell-casters (especially ones you have a hope of closing with), go for Lesser Mage-Slayer. Of course, some means of getting a threatened area at least 10 feet deep will be necessary to keep them from just 5' stepping back to cast most of the time(although Blocker can perhaps help with this). The premiere choice for this is EWP(Spiked Chain) but the short-haft feat/equivalent martial stance can work, and spiked gauntlets are good if you don't mind having to have two different weapons. For a different take on this, try an item of Enlarge Person. Belt of Growth from Magic Item Compendium is a good start, but eventually you will probably want something continuous that you can turn on and off at need. My test character did this with a belt, which fit through a second set of belt-loops he had tailored onto his pants. Holes in the magic item let him put ties through it (also part of the tailoring) so it couldn't get yanked off when he had it unbuckled to de-activate it. He ALSO took the EWP for a whopping 50' diameter threatened area (10' space plus 20' reach on each side). When and if your total attack bonus on AoOs gets high enough that you are hitting almost all the time, got ahead and consider getting Power Attack. Of course, your bonus damage makes this somewhat less of a priority. Stand Still is a solid option against enemies that don't know what you are capable of, or which you can't drop in one hit. Improved Critical could be nice (especially for an elf sticking to a long-sword), but hopefully I gave you better things to do with your 18th level non-bonus feat... or 15th(or fighter bonus feat) if you dip a full-BAB class. I will consider putting it on the bonus feat list at around VI list=11th class level. But... more on feats later with Enhanced Defensive Strike.
At Epic levels look into a psionic or shugenja based item to increase your size even further.

Life-saver:
Oh look, you are reliable as the combat medic! If you put at least a 12 into wisdom, took Skill Focus(Heal)*, or can afford a healer's kit your 4 ranks in heal at first level means you can make those DC 15 heal checks every time. If not, you will have to settle for once per class level per day for a level or two. Of course Cure Minor Wounds beats this unless you are trying to save the lives of large numbers of NPCs after a pitched battle in which case the cleric might run out of spell slots. In any case this is just the first taste of your healing prowess, so don't look a gift horse in the mouth, especially if you might be the one stabilizing the cleric when they hit negatives.
*Hold your laughter until you have read through the Hands of the Healer class feature. If you still want to laugh, go for it, but at least tell me about it so I can have that bit of feed-back on the class.

At 4th level you can do this with Disease*. Again, as a PC this isn't nearly so hot as it is for the NPCs, but more on that later, note however that I THINK this works on lycanthropy**. Note especially that this DOESN'T help out with all the marvelous abilities you get to treat various conditions as diseases via Hands of the Healer (you have to wait until 13th level before you can take 10 on ALL of that stuff). Much more importantly, you can take 10 against poison* which means that if you keep your heal check pumped, secondary damage from poison should never be an issue in your party. Again, probably not that great compared to what the cleric can do if properly prepared, but he might want his third level spell slots for stuff other than Remove Poison.
*Actually, by RAW I think anyone can do so with poison and disease as long as they aren't distracted or whatever. Seems a little silly to me, but whatever.
**And other varieties of theranthropy... sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine.

Divine Grace:
Your "initially better than the thing you lost and always better than what those poor fellows with the bad saving throws you are helping out have to live with" consolation prize for occasionally giving away your base saves. Of course, if you like it that much, you can always take the "Improved Gift of Protection" feat with gives you +1 to all saves and lets you give away even more of them... and if you have gotten totally paranoid about your saving throws you can eventually take the "Improved Divine Grace" feat for an additional +4 to all saving throws. Don't forget that you get more mileage out of a Cloak of Charisma than you do from a Cloak of Resistance although eventually you might want to have a bit of Protection on your cloak as a secondary enchantment. Of course, that is for games where Vest of Resistance is disallowed for some reason! Get the cloak first probably, but the vest is still useful.

Helpful:
Ok, so you aren't as flexible as a bard, but at least you don't run out of songs per day. If AC in the party is at a premium, the +2 AC use of Aid Another is there, and the +2 to-hit is probably marginally more productive than making your own attack. This scales at higher levels, but you might have to spend some skill points.

Master of the Healing Ward:
As a PC the main use of this is in combination with Hands of the Healer. Meanwhile your NPC counterparts are doing more to turn the tide against the black death than their equally-leveled-and-statted clerical counterparts for the next few levels at least. Don't forget to roleplay this though... you might get some cred when you save some lives.

Courage:
Immunity to fear, with some minor, and mostly fluff limitations on it. If your allies end up Frightened or Panicked flee with them anyway. You aren't much of a combatant on your own. If they are Shaken or Cowering, stick with them. Better hope you can buy enough time for them to recover if it is Cowering though. Note that this immunity means you can prevent such problems by boosting Will saves.

Carry the Burden:
And here is the main reason you actually need a decent strength score at higher levels, especially if you want to Tumble while using it. Levitate is nice, but is only a fore-taste of the real power here. Invest in the future by taking the Burden Bearer feat at 3rd or 4th level (or both if necessary). Your strength will go up at later levels, but by then you can use this on more allies. Enlargement magic helps here too. Offer to swap the flight for the enlargement, since Enlarge Person has the same duration as Fly and is a level lower, and your AoOs benefit from greater reach. Don't be afraid to take some damage if you are sure your allies can keep the fliers away from you. An item so YOU can fly makes the party much more mobile, especially out of combat (but not overland really).

Enhanced Defensive Strike:
And here is the second half of the abilities that let you be effective in certain types of melee. Get yourself a masterwork cold-iron weapon and only replace it if you gain a weapon proficiency. Consider augmenting it with an alchemical silver back-up weapon since you can save a lot on weapon costs via this ability. This isn't to say that you shouldn't spend a little on enchanting your weapons, or perhaps even a lot. The "a lot" option would be because everything stacks, and once you break through the +2 equivalent enhancement bonus barrier to get into weapons with an actual option you open up a lot of possibilities.
Speaking of Options, in the long run, Ghost Touch is probably the best choice for your 7th level pick. The alignment options are good for getting past DR, but eventually you might want a weapon with the actual enchantment so you can get the extra damage. Viscous is problematic, not so much for the damage you take, as for the fact that +2d6 becomes less and less impressive as you level up. Ghost Touch on the other hand, doubles your chance of successfully injuring certain types of enemies (compared to just a magic/magic-equivalent weapon) at ANY level where you have the option.

Hands of the Healer:
Ok, so this ability requires a COLOSSAL+ amount of time compared to the cleric or druid's casting times, but you don't have to prepare anything, and you can treat a lot of people at once, so when you first get access to each sub-ability you are a bit ahead if the party gets trashed. I may have this slowly decrease to only a Huge amount of time... about 1/24th (so replace every instance of "1 day" with "1 hour" eventually, and every instance of "8 hours" with "20 minutes") over the course a few levels after each ability is granted.

Gift of Time:
Got a move action you have nothing to do with? Not any more! Your action economy just got more efficient, although a +20' movement rate bonus varies in its usefulness... still the barbarians and the monks can't be completely missing the point, and even rangers and arcanists want in on the action with longstrider and expeditious retreat.
Later on... well it costs you significantly, but you can give the meleeist a form of Pounce when he needs it.
At 10th level you can cast one of your other buffs and still give that Pounce.
At 15th level you can allow the wizard to double-cast (or triple if one of the spells is Quickened), or give the fighter the equivalent of Haste as far as his attacks go. Basically you get to double their effectiveness for a round, making it as if you were a copy of them.... the wizard more than the fighter(unless the "fighter" is actually a Martial Adept) unfortunately but what can you do?
At 20th level you the duplication effects get better for the persons with sharp objects. Time Stands Still+this = 3 full-attacks, or charge(possibly a manuever), or move-plus-maneuver, followed by two full-attacks. Bring a sponge, this may get messy.

Gift of Breath:
Situational, but really good when you need it... this is the the second ability to be fueled by constitution... and your source of Enlarge Person also pays off here, just as it does with Carry the Burden.

Gift of Soul:
You get to help out with the item crafting. Not bad, but not for every campaign.
If you are short on gold, and can spare a few XPs, hire an NPC to Permanency an Enlarge Person on you. It is Dispel Magic bait but at least you can save a bit on the cost while you save up for a magic item.
Also good for paying for your own Wishes to get that +5 inherent bonus to Charisma.

Gift of Life:
Oh look, you can revivify... preferably during down-time, since you are a wee bit frail afterwards... but at least you can do it on the spur of the moment, right? Don't forget to purchase your material components though.

Shield of the Soul:
No save spells making Gift of Resistance feel a bit useless? Well, here is your ability for that. It might OCCASIONALLY even help you against a spell aimed at YOU. Depending on what magic items your team-mates can scrape together (or if you have a monk around), the two feat investment to be able to synergize with their spell-resistance could actually be worth it, and +4 to the SR isn't anything to sneeze at either.

Mobile Defender:
The most controversial ability of this class, in as much as it does NOTHING without the Combat Reflexes->Blocker feat pair. Since if you are going for AoOs* you probably took that pair already this shouldn't be a problem, but if you were going with Lesser Mage-Bane, Stand Still, and the Enhanced Defensive Strike feats you might have missed that. If so, and if you want to go with this your VERY last chance before you get this ability would be taking Combat Reflexes as your bonus feat at 11th level and Blocker at 12th level. Note that since you will be getting Blocker as a NON-bonus feat you need to have Combat Expertise to make this work.

*I would think most players would at least to a certain extent, but what do I know?

Matchless Loyalty:
Nice ability, completely passive, so the only thing that needs saying here is that you don't need to be as afraid to give away your will saves or spell-resistance against opponents that can Charm or Dominate but don't know you have this ability and/or aren't smart enough to have you buff them and forgo AoOs.

Gift of Foresight:
Two parts to this.

The easy part:
This is at will, so recast it often, lest you get busy and run out. Every 10 minutes while you are awake should be fine. Take the middle watch if you are still keeping watch at night, and cast it before you go to bed both times, plus when you wake up for your watch.

The hard part:
Deciding who you want your two or three (or 4 if playing in a high enough level/power game that you can get a +12 modifier) targets to be.

Obviously you want to throw this on the guy who is most likely to be blind-sided by something and when that is about to happen. Don't be afraid to dispel and recast to move that around as needed, as long as you aren't worried about being blindsided during that 1 round, perhaps by a canny enemy secretly waiting for just such a moment.

You could put it on a forward scout, but it is most useful if they remain with in shouting range. There are two exceptions to this: forms of communication better than shouting (telepathy comes to mind), and as an improved version/additional data source with Status. In other words just because you can't stop bad things from happening to the scout if they are far away doesn't mean that you can't make better decisions about how to rescue them (or at least keep bad things from happening to MORE people you care about) if you know what they could have done to avoid the harm, not just the form the harm took.

If AoEs are are likely, then put it on they guy nearest the center of the party who isn't you (since you might be in the middle sometimes). That way you can warn EVERYONE with one shout.

Other than that decide if you want to blow your wad all at once, or spread it out through the day, and then balance who is most likely to benefit from it versus who is going to be most harmed if they need it and don't have it.

DracoDei
2012-06-25, 04:41 PM
Partial Change log:
SOME of newer edits(Newest at top approximately):
September 4, 2019:
Changed "ally" to "enemy" in feat "Martyr's Power" for who needs to have killed you. This was probably a typo, and if it wasn't, it was a bad idea.

Years ago:
Added a bonus feat at 7th level, after deciding that the feat-drought HAD to be ended and that 7th level wasn't as awesome as I though it was, what with just getting one new ability, plus an upgrade to an ability that requires additional strength to get any use of said upgrade, and another upgrade that mildly increases survivability.
Added Doubled Gifts and Tripled Gifts, which would be their version of Quicken Spell/Quicken Spell-like Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#quickenSpellLikeAbility)... wondering if I shouldn't make this built into more class features instead. Don't want this to be a required feat to keep up with all the other casters being able to layer the buffs they provide due to not being limited by 1 round durations for most of their buffs.
Started adding necessary boiler-plate to make them count as divine casters like they should have from the start. Need to add the rules about spellcasting advancement in PrCs.
Having heard that Epic Feats are often underpowered, I went looking at them. First one I noticed was Epic Dodge, so I threw that in there as Grace-Gift's Dodge, although I did hedge my bets by giving it a 22 rank Tumble pre-requisite. I should continue looking though.
Added An Ounce of Prevention SLA.
Added Accelerate Natural Healing feat, which will probably be changed into a class feature.
Added Stoic Defender feat.
Gave actual rules for Gift of Foresight.
Added Helping Hand.
Added at-will use of Status at higher levels.
Added Gift of Life.
Gave more options weapon-wise, including limited use of bolas.
Added Aura.
Allowed Mobile Defender to be used as a Standard action.
Added a 4th level version of Gift of Time that only takes up a move action, and grants an improvement to base movement rate.
Removed a lot of the comments embedded in the class itself so as to save on character count.
Improved the versatility of the capstone for and "Loosened The Leash" on Gift of Time, taking it all the way to 40' at 18th level. But since it requires you to NOT move on your turn for the most part it seems appropriate that it should cap out higher than other stuff.
Beefed up Martyr's Power a bit... still poorly written, for instance, unsuccessful raise attempts should now consume 1/4 rather than 1/2 resources.
Added a bunch of feats from the Psionics section of www.d20srd to the "I" section of the bonus feats list.
Clarified that Hands of the Healer does NOT require two successes in a row to produce an effect.
Clarified wording of light armor casting.
Allowed drawing a weapon to NOT interfere with Swift to Protect.
Added ability to replicate Remove Blindness/Deafness to "Hands of the Healer".
Added "Hands of the Healer" to cover stuff that the heal skill normally can't effect, but which Lesser Restoration and then later Restoration can cover.
Added "Improved Gift of Protection", "Improved Shield of the Soul", "Greater Shield of the Soul", and "Martyr's Power" feats.
Renamed "Energized Defensive Strike" to "Energized Grace" and added transferable energy resistance to it.
Shifted Feats to the second post.
Clarified casting time of fly function of "Carry the Burden".
Finished out "Gift of Tolerence". Considering changing it to scale with size like Gift of Breath does.
Added "Improved Touch of the Grace-Gift" feat.
Put levels for the two upgrade points of "Shield of the Soul". Not really sure about picking 19th level, but the 16th level part is probably good to go.
Expanded "Gift of Soul"
Added Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm to the III bonus feat list. Considering adding an extension (via feat?) to Defensive Strike that might make Improved Disarm a "trap".
Increased starting gold to allow them to get a healers kit and some armor in addition to basic adventuring supplies.
Doubled the per-day caps on "Touch of the Grace-Gift"(This may be too much but... it is out of battle healing and doing so lets a party scrape by without a cleric at low levels).
Removed save penalty from "Shield of the Soul".
Clarified "Swift to Protect".
Allowed multi-targetting of "Divine Protection".
Expanded the 1st level uses of "Lifesaver"... (change name?)
Tweaked Lesser Mage-Slayer to work against AoE spells.
Allowed "Gift of Shielding" to be used as an immediate action at 15th level.
Gave them the ability to wear light armor.(bad idea?)
Added Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes to the first list of bonus feats.

DracoDei
2012-06-25, 04:42 PM
The following are my very round drafts for are the abilities I HAVEN'T added. I might or might not add any particular ones.

A feat that allows taking 10 on concentration checks for GG spellcasting Class Level/4 times a day or so. Perhaps with Skill Focus(Concentration) as a prerequisite.

Gift of Skill: Full round action, touch range, transfer BAB up to +20 total. Anything over that is treated as simply a to-hit bonus (to damage too for the overflow?). Feat grants an extra TWF/MWF virtual feat for the duration of the transfer (including Perfect TWF/MWF if the target already gets 4 attacks with each weapon).

Add feat that requires GG's toughness line (probably just the first feat of it) and allows targetting up to Cha Mod additional creatures(minimum 2 total) with Gift of Shielding?

Complete change of casting concept: Maintaining all pre-existing effects is a swift action, changing an ability (including turning it completely on or off) requires a standard action. Maybe cap the number of different abilities you can have running at one time based on an additional column in the table. I am not liking this idea, but it could be the way to go, especially for speeding up the play of less experienced players. It might require toning down some of the abilities.


Mettle(Ex):At level X((probably X>7, to keep it competitive with MOST sources of mettle, although hex-blades get it at level 3, but grace-gifts don't need more stuff at LOW levels.)) a Grace-Gift selects either fortitude or will saves, when succeeding on such saves they take no ill effects that would usually apply on a failed save. This choice is permanent, but see below. If you take a penalty equal to at least your half your base save with the selected save via Gift of Resistance you may elect to forgo the benefits of this class feature for that type of saving throw in order to grant it to all allies within 10 feet. Your Mettle never stacks with Mettle from other sources on you. Unless you have at least Y levels of Grace-Gift, this does NOT stack with Mettle from other sources on the target to produce an "Improved Mettle" effect. Improved Mettle reduces the effect of a failed fortitude or will save (whichever you selected, but see below) to what a character with neither mettle nor Improved Mettle would suffer on an successful saving throw.

Starting at level Z((Z > 10, so it is AFTER they get Gift of Resistance(Boost Multiple Saves).)), this applies to both fortitude and will saves. Consider fortitude and will save transfers separately for determining if the grace-gift may transfer that function of mettle to allies within 10 feet.

Probably going to put this in, but it might be at very late levels.

Accelerate Natural Healing(Ex):
If you forgo the use of the Lifesaver class feature, you may achieve improved results.
{table=head]Roll|First Aid or Caltrop|Spike Stones or Spike Growth|Long-term Care OR Disease (Final needed Success)|Poison|Disease (Needing 1 or more further successes)

<DC|Failure|Failure|Failure|Failure|Failure|Failure |Failure|Failure|Failure|Failure

DC|Ordinary Success|Ordinary Success|Ordinary Success|Ordinary Success|Ordinary Success|Ordinary Success|Ordinary Success|

DC+3|Move OR Standard*|5 minutes|4 / 12 hours|Undo 1 point of damage from a failed initial save or halve duration of special effect from a failed initial save|Special Retry starting in 12 hours**

DC+6|Move OR Standard OR Swift*|3 minutes|3 / 8 hours|Undo 2 points of ability score damage or 1 point of drain from a failed initial save, or reduce duration of special effect from a failed initial save to 1/3rd|Special Retry starting in 8 hours**

DC+9|Free Action*|2 minutes|2 / 6 hours|Undo 3 points of ability score damage or 1 point of ability score drain from a failed initial save, or quarter duration of special effect from a failed initial save|Special Retry starting in 6 hours**

DC+12|Free Action*|1 minute|1.5 / 4 hours|Undo 4 points of ability score damage, 2 points of ability score drain from a failed initial save, or reduce duration of special effect from a failed initial save to 1/5th|Special Retry starting in 4 hours**

DC+15|Free Action*|5 rounds|1 / 3 hours|Undo 5 points of damage, 2 points of drain from a failed initial save, or reduce duration of special effect from a failed initial save to 1/6th|Special Retry starting in 3 hours**

DC+18|Free Action*|3 rounds|40 min / 2 hours|Undo 6 points of damage, 3 points of drain from a failed initial save, or reduce duration of special effect from a failed initial save to 1/8th|Special Retry starting in 2 hours**

DC+21|Free Action*|Full-Round|20 min / 1 hour|Undo 7 points of damage, 3 points of drain, or reduce duration of special effect from a failed initial save to 1/12th|Special Retry starting in 1 hour**

DC+24|Free Action*|Standard Action|10 min / 30 min|Undo 9 points of damage, 4 points of drain, or reduce duration of special effect from a failed initial save to 1/30th|Special Retry starting in 30 minutes**
[/table]
*Time changes are retroactive, but you must have a standard action to attempt.
**Special Retries for disease when there is no previous success are another treatment period, but failure inflicts no damage. Grace-Gift may use Master of the Healing Ward to overlap two treatments for one disease in this case.
((Need to define how <6 second durations for poison secondary effects turns into mere actions that must be sacrificed/pass before the effect goes away.))


Accelerate Supernatural Healing (Su):((Put this under Hands of the Healer instead?))
{table=head]Roll|Blindness, Deafness, Magical Penalty to Ability Score, Drained Level, or Ability Drain|Negative Levels
<DC|Failure|Failure|Failure|Failure

DC|Ordinary Success|Ordinary Success|Ordinary Success|Ordinary Success

DC+3|4 / 12 hours|Special Retry starting in 12 hours**

DC+6|3 / 8 hours|Undo 2 points of ability score damage or 1 point of drain from a failed initial save, or reduce duration of special effect from a failed initial save to 1/3rd|Special Retry starting in 8 hours**

DC+9|2 / 6 hours|Undo 3 points of ability score damage or 1 point of ability score drain from a failed initial save, or quarter duration of special effect from a failed initial save|Special Retry starting in 6 hours**

DC+12|1.5 / 4 hours|Undo 4 points of ability score damage, 2 points of ability score drain from a failed initial save, or reduce duration of special effect from a failed initial save to 1/5th|Special Retry starting in 4 hours**

DC+15|1 / 3 hours|Undo 5 points of damage, 2 points of drain from a failed initial save, or reduce duration of special effect from a failed initial save to 1/6th|Special Retry starting in 3 hours**

DC+18|40 min / 2 hours|Undo 6 points of damage, 3 points of drain from a failed initial save, or reduce duration of special effect from a failed initial save to 1/8th|Special Retry starting in 2 hours**

DC+21|20 min / 1 hour|Undo 7 points of damage, 3 points of drain, or reduce duration of special effect from a failed initial save to 1/12th|Special Retry starting in 1 hour**

DC+24|10 min / 30 min|Undo 9 points of damage, 4 points of drain, or reduce duration of special effect from a failed initial save to 1/30th|Special Retry starting in 30 minutes**

DC+27|5 min / 15 min|

DC+30|2.5 min / 7.5 min|

DC+33|1 min / 3 min|

DC+36|5 rounds / 15 rounds

DC+39|2 rounds / 6 rounds

DC+42|1 round / 3 rounds
[/table]

Epic Feats worth CONSIDERING turning into high-level Grace-Gift feats:
Armor Skin(but if you already have natural armor and con 13 you can get this as a monster feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#improvedNaturalArmor)), Damage Reduction (3/-, transferable once per round as a swift, move, immediate or standard action, but becomes 5/-), Energy Resistance (easier to access than Engerized defense, should stack with it, and be transferable in the same way), Epic Endurance, Epic Fortitude, Epic Reflexes, Epic Reputation, Epic Skill Focus (Concentration, Heal, Tumble), Epic Speed(But add/replace Dash in the prerequisites... which means adding it to the I list), Epic Toughness(but kinda steps on the toes of the other toughness feats), Epic Will, Exceptional Deflection(in which case add Deflect Arrows to the I list), Fast Healing, (Compare Great Smiting to Defensive Strike), Holy Strike (but make it stack), Improved Combat Casting, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Ki strike, compare Improved Spell Resistance, Improved Whirlwind Attack, Infinite Deflection, compare Penetrate Damage Reduction to Enhanced Material Defense, Perfect Health, Permanent Emanation, Polyglot, Reflect Arrows (probably not), Righteous Strike, Self-Concealment (although this should be more like a high-level class feature), Sneak Attack of Opportunity(fold this into a rogue/grace-gift multi-classing feat, or even make it the central feature), compare Spectral Strike with Enhanced Defensive Strike (Ghost-Touch), Spell Opportunity, Spellcasting Harrier which is +4 to hit and... unfairness of surprise compared to Mage-Bane, compare Superior Initiative to Swift to Protect, compare Unholy Strike with the others to Enhanced Defensive Strike,



Feat to allow using Swift action Grace-Gift ability with a standard or move action 3/day, limit 1/round. Can't use the same SLA more than once per round, has to be different SLAs (and close this loophole in abilities that have the multiple allowed initiating action, perhaps under "A General Rule").


14th level is where this class starts really tailing off, although it may have some problems before that. EDIT: I MAY have fixed this.

Give some source of miss chances that can be given away?
Ditto for Sanctuary type effect "Shield of the Innocent"?

Taking on other's maladies is fine, but what about an ability to give away any buffs you have on you? One standard action per buff? Throws in a bit of versatility as you can shift things around a bit.

1 point of Con burn to turn diseases that hit more than once a day (such as some that hit every round for epic-level threats) into 1/day hitters.

Some sort of ability to replicate the following(Go back over cleric list looking for "service to the community" type spells):

(Based on "Cryogenically frozen until a cure can be found" concept) Flesh to Stone 5 round casting time on allies only. Stone to Flesh with 1 hour casting time on persons turned to stone by a Grace-Gift only.
Give all versions of this at least 2 class levels ( = 1 spell level) earlier than their arcane equivalents.
Distinctive aura under Detect Magic is obvious, but requires a DC 16 check against ONE of the following skills with all the others providing synergy bonuses: Spellcraft, Heal, Knowledge(Religion). In any case, the target DOES appear alive to Deathwatch and other such spells.
If both spells were cast as Grace-Gift class features then no fortitude save is required to survive the restoration process. If only one was, then subject gains a bonus equal to one quarter of the grace-gift's caster level.
Does not effect gear?
Upgrades to 1 full-round (IE like Summoning spells) casting time and not effecting parasites to allow "The Dragon Doctors" type surgery?
Later upgrades to Temporal Stasis with 5 round casting time.

Repulsion
Dream Allies only.
Dismissal Allies only... really I should just raid the Anchored Guardian for almost everything it can do for Prime Material allies and which I can justify.
Resilient Sphere? Allies only, not sure on cost... 5 points of con damage and 1 of burn to emulate the toughness of the sphere?
Locate Creature Allies only, note that there is a better version of this at a later level on this list I think, but it might come to the same thing due to the limitations. Also Find the Path.
Globe of Invulnerability. Lesser/Greater? No idea on a penalty for this. -10 to saves and SR for spells high enough level to get through the sphere?
Dimensional Anchor ...no idea what the penalty for this should be, although maybe just the action, single targeting, and 1 round duration are enough... unless I give them permanent immunity to hostile teleportation effects, then let them give it away... that could actually be good, if only because I don't think I know of anything other than my Anchored Guardian that has such an immunity. This would, obviously, be a fairly high-level ability, but then again those are what I need anyway.
Blur or Mirror Image... except the only ideas for a negative effect for you I can think of would be Faerie Fire the grace-gift, and that is just a bit ridiculous.
Spectral Hand for someone else to use but you take x4 damage (the hand still has the unmultiplied amount of hit-points) and the hit-points DON'T return at the end of the spell's duration.
1 or 2 point penalty to strength to cast Floating Disk on someone, penalty lasting as long as you keep the disk around? Seems a bit silly actually, but why not?
Actually, better than the above would probably be an ability from first level to reduce someone's load by X by adding X to your load could be more appropriate and a good predicesor level for Carry the Burden... which would also mean that the Burden Bearer feat would move to the I list from the II list, which would be... interesting since it is one of the more "must have to get maximum mileage out of class features" feats.
Antipathy (on allies only? Penalty is removing any miss chances you might have, -4 or more to all saves, AC, and SR.)
Invisibility? (see above for Penalty types.)
Foresight? (On others only.)
Regenerate
Control Weather? (Can only make NICE weather, including nil to moderate rain or snow, nil to moderate winds, no lightning, hail, sleet, or fog. Problematic thaws allowed? Can cause flooding with continuous rain?)
Move Earth? (3 points of damage and 3 points of burn to BOTH Strength and Constitution. May substitute 6 points of drain to both if you wish.)
Awaken? (No XP cost. 1 point penalty to INT that is cancelled only by the creature's death. Creature is rendered infertile by the spell?)
Commune with Nature
Quench?? (deals fire damage to you)
Atonement
Word of Recall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wordOfRecall.htm)? Perhaps one that CAN'T effect you...
Find the Path/Discern Location (To locate allies only)
Spell Immunity/Spell Immunity, Greater (you suffer the effect of each of the spells you grant immunity to in turn when you create the effect, can only have X in effect at one time. Standard 10 min/level duration.))
Refuge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/refuge.htm)
Consecrate/Desecrate/Hallow/Unhallow? Probably not...
Death Ward? Maybe 10 points of Con damage when it is activated.
Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic/Break Enchantment, perhaps using the lower of Diplomacy and Heal for anything with the [Mind Affecting] tag... or maybe just straight Diplomacy. Perhaps Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelEvil.htm)'s ability to auto-succeeded against spells with alignments opposed to yours (pick one such alignment when you get the ability?)
Remove Curse replicating ability, similar to the above.
Remove Disease's ability to cure Mummy Rot and other "magical cure only" diseases with a +5 or +10 to the DC, perhaps still requiring 2 successful heal checks in a row. Or perhaps only ONE of the successes needs to be a heal check, rather than a fortitude save (note that if BOTH succeed on a given day, then it qualifies as a success as a heal check). Or maybe they BOTH have to succeed on the final day of the sequence, every day (no DC increase in this final case).
Stone to Flesh?
Limited Wish
Heal
Miracle (not Wish, because that is Arcane).


Gift of Mobility(Su): A Grace-gift of at least 3rd level may accept 2 points of ability score damage, distributed as they choose between strength and dexterity to cast Remove Paralysis.

For longer-term paralysis, alternate uses of the heal skill would seem more appropriate. One or two round limit on the ability score damage method?


Gift of Bravery: (1st level ability) Cast Remove Fear, but perhaps without the save bonus (that is what Gift of Protection is supposed to be for). 1 point of charisma damage? Permanent duration that inflicts 1 or 2 point charisma penalty as long as it is in effect?

(Do something with Remove Curse?)


Toughened by Hardship(Ex): ((This ability will be added if this class is deemed to be too M.A.D.)).At level X and every odd-numbered level there-after the grace-gift selects one ability score except intelligence and increases it as if from character levels. The same ability score may not be selected twice in row for this class ability.

Never a Burden(Sp): I should make a chart of what levels additional uses/whatever are granted for scaling abilities... either one chart for all scaling abilities, or one chart for each, or one chart for the low-level stuff, and a shorter chart for the higher level stuff.(lists needed to do this below)
All target/can be used by self ONLY unless otherwise noted.
Pick ONE of the ones that you know to be able to use that day. Lose this ability for 24 hours, and all on-going durations of it end, if ever more than 60 feet from nearest focus creature, or if focus creature stops meeting the requirements.
Focus creature(s): Must be willing, at least one required both to prepare(within 30 feet) and to cast the spell(must be touching). Preparation takes 5 minutes.

(1)This ability may be shared.
Spell-level 0:

Create Water (No focus creature required. Range is 10 feet. 1 minute casting time. Amount capped at enough to sustain you, and up to one mount and one pack animal owned and touched by you sustained comfortably, drink-wise in your current environment.)(1)
Light (No focus creature required, considered My Light, but litterally giving someone light to see by is too cool... maybe make it My Light, but allow it to be used on others.).(1)
Purify Food and Drink (No focus creature required), later double volume?(1)
Mending The focus creature(s) may be any intelligent creature(s) that each own at least two items of manufactured goods it/they currently have in its/their possession(s). An outfit counts as one item for this purpose. Later give more times per day. Allow to be swapped out if grace-gift ever gains the "Make Whole" ability.(1)

Spell-level 1:

Endure Elements No focus creature required.
Hide from Animals Focus creature(s) must have at least 4 more ranks in Survival than you do ((this is a bit klutzy, but...)).
Hide from Undead (Ravenloft and other "killer undead are all over the place" type settings only. Focus creature must have at least 4 more ranks in both hide and move silently than you do.)
Longstrider Later changes to Extended Longstrider(less powerful than giving it more times per day because there is less flexibility). Focus creature(s) must have (a) higher land-speed(s) than you.
Mount May substitute a camel. Focus creature(s) must have (a) higher land-speed(s) than you, or be within 60 feet of a mount that they own.
Comprehend Languages. Later changes to Extended Comprehend Languages (less powerful than giving it more times per day because there is less flexibility) Give slow increase until this is a LOT of times per day since the duration is only 10 minutes/level. Requires touching one or more willing creatures that speaks the both the language to be gained, and at least one language that you can understand, both without magical aid. DO NOT HAVE THIS TURN INTO TONGUES, since that is a 3 level jump. Maybe allow it to be replaced by a different 1st level choice if the grace-gift later acquires tongues.
Low-Light Vision Focus creature(s) must have continuous innate (including class-based, but not spell or magic item) low-light vision.((Later give 2/day))
Pass without Trace Focus creature(s) must be able to pass without trace, by whatever means (Class ability, spell, item, etc).
Spider Climb Focus creature(s) must have an innate climb speed.


Spell-level 2:

Avoid Planar Effects (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040711b&page=2) (but the duration stinks, remove this or give a free upgrade to Attune Form at a later level). Focus creature(s) must be immune to the effects of the plane in question.
Burrow Focus creature(s) must have an innate burrow speed equal to or greater than what the spell would grant.
Darkvision Focus creature must have continuous innate (including class-based, but not spell((Allow permanency-ed spells?)) or magic item) darkvision with a range of at least 60'.((Later give 2/day))
Replicate the effects of the druid's Woodland Stride (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm#woodlandStride) class ability 1 hour/level?
Make Whole The focus creature(s) may be any intelligent creature(s) that each own at least two items of manufactured goods it/they currently have in its/their possession(s). An outfit counts as one item for this purpose.


Spell-level 3:

Attune Form (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040711b&page=2) Focus creature(s) must be, either naturally or because of the effects of class features, continuously immune to the effects of the plane in question.
Create Food and Drink Any intelligent creature(s) may serve as the focus(-i).
?Gaseous Form?((If I do this the requirements should be REALLY strict)).
Tiny Hut Focus is any shelter large enough for you, and at least as good as a tent. DIAMETER is equal to your height plus 50%.((Tiny Hut already has a clause about vanishing if you exit it. Also, DO NOT add Secure Shelter, and Magnificent Mansion is right out.))
Waterbreathing Focus creature(s) must currently be capable of breathing water (including via a currently active spell or magic item effect).((Allow replacement with another 3rd level choice when the Grace-gift obtains Cloak of the Sea.))


Spell-level 4:

Tongues (actual varies from 2nd to 4th based on class, but it is a spell that makes a skill obsolete, so...). Later changes to Extended Comprehend Languages (less powerful than giving it more times per day because there is less flexibility). Give slow increase until this is a LOT of times per day since the duration is only 10 minutes/level. Focus creature must speak both the language to be gained, and at least one language that you can understand, both without magical aid.


Spell-level 5:

Overland Flight (later give 2/day?). Focus creature must currently be able to fly at a speed of at least 30 feet, and be able to remain aloft for at least 2 hours without additional spell-casting etc.
(Replicate a Wing-Dragon's On your tail ability on a willing creature at touch range, but with simultaneous casting required, or maybe even a 1 minute casting time and the spell you are "riding" having to be cast after that, with all your actions tied up in concentrating on maintaining the link... maybe even have to maintain touch with caster during whole thing. Limited to effects of (GG level+1)/2. 1/day to start with increasing to 3 or 4/day by 20th level.


Spell-level 6:

Cloak of the Sea Focus creature must be ((Help! Don't know enough about what Cloak of the Sea does!)).


Spell-level 8:

Ghostform Focus creature must be ethereal, or capable of becoming so indefinitely without the use of spells or magic items. Ignore the fact that they can't be touched... sticking your hand through them counts as touching them, and your hand is forced out without harm to either of you as the spell takes effect.


1/day:
Create Water
Purify Food and Drink
Endure Elements
(2 hour/level Woodland Stride as a spell... remember to grab boiler-plate from Leap-Dragoon to prevent abuse by non-grace-gifts.)
Create Food and Drink
Tiny Hut

Extend 1/day:
Mount
Low-Light Vision
Pass without Trace
Attune Form
Waterbreathing
Overland Flight
Cloak of the Sea

Extend 2/day:
Longstrider


2/day:
Mending

3 to 4/day:
(On Your Tail)

Extend 3 to 4/day:
Light
Hide from Animals
Hide from Undead (make this Extended and 4/day)
Comprehend Languages
Spider Climb
Tongues


Extend 20/day:
Avoid Planar Effects
Burrow(PF)
Gaseous Form
Ghost-form


Related feats:
Adaptable Traveler [Grace-Gift]((Formerly known as "Good Traveling Companion".))
"Oh, I won't be any trouble to you, I promise!"
Prerequisites: Never a Burden class feature.
Benefits: You gain an additional way you can use your Never a Burden class feature. You must meet the level requirements of the ability selected.
Special: A character with at least ? levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Walker of Strange Roads [Grace-Gift]
You adapt well to even the most odd and unplanned of circumstances.
Prerequisites: Never a Burden class feature.
Benefits: You may prepare an additional set of Never a Burden abilities. You may not prepare the same option more than once.
Special: A character with at least ? levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Traveling Companion [Grace-Gift]
"He's with me."
Prerequisites: Never a Burden class feature that grants at least one spell that can ordinarily target more than one target.
Benefits: (Allows multi-targetting of Never a Burden spells. Creatures targeted with any such spell may not be used as a focus for 48 hours after the end of the duration of such a spell. Maybe share spells that can't normally multi-target with one creature, can change which creature with a 24 hour ritual? Gain 2 additional creatures each extra time you take this feat?)
Special: A character with at least ? levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Gift of Body(Sp):((I should probably add this instead of the mid-to-high range bonus feats))
Swift action to start, free action to maintain. Cha-Mod*5 foot range, when maintaining may extend to 5 times this range with standard action. Take penalty to one physical ability score to grant half that amount as a sacred/profane bonus to the same ability score of one ally.

At 11th level((When Bear's Endurance, Mass and equivalent spells become available)) you may instead target Cha-Mod allies, but in this case the bonus is one quarter the penalty you take, and extending the range requires a swift action plus a full round action.

Gift of Mind(Sp): ((If I add this it should be in place of one of the high-level bonus feats)).
Full-round action to initiate, touch range, the only action you may take while this ability is active is to take an immediate (or swift if it happens to be your turn) action to end this ability, change the amount of penalty you are taking (Minimum 1, maximum Score-1), or change the type of bonus you are granting between sacred/profane and a caster level bonus. Your target may end this ability as a immediate/swift action. Both of you count as flat-footed, and are ADDITIONALLY denied your dexterity bonuses for the duration of this ability. This ability ends if the target leaves your reach for any reason. You take a penalty to one of your mental ability scores from 1 to ability score -1. The target gains a sacred or profane bonus to the same ability score equal to half this amount OR a bonus to caster levels equal to one quarter of the amount of the penalty you are taking (make it penalize all your mental ability scores when used this way?). If the second effect is selected, then any spells that benefited from this bonus end when this effect ends.




Gift of Sleep (Sp): ((Fairly flavorful, but not really very useful, give this at first or second level.)) A grace-gift may target an individual and go to sleep. This sleep does not rest the grace-gift in any way, but instead provides the benefits of whatever sleep/rest the grace-gift gets to them. Once they are fully rested sleep-wise, the grace-gift passes into normal sleep, or awakens if the grace-gift wasn't tired enough to fall asleep when they activated this ability. In any case this sleep is no more deep than normal sleep and the grace-gift may be awakened at any stage by anything that would normally wake the grace-gift up.

Assume Concentration (Sp):((cf Aiming at the Target and Finding the Center from Complete Arcane))

Teamwork:
A grace-gift of at least 9th level may target one ally(here-after referred to as "the original caster") within 30' who is currently maintaining a spell with a concentration-based duration as a swift action. For a number of rounds equal to the grace-gift's level every time that ally needs to make a concentration check to maintain that spell that ally chooses one of the following three options:

Rely Completely on the Grace-Gift: In this case the grace-gift attempts the concentration check in the place of the original caster with the same DC, but using the grace-gift's total bonus to the check. The GM should adjudicate if any given situational bonus would apply to this. Generally anything that effects the concentration DC of the SPELL should apply without change, but anything about the CIRCUMSTANCES (such as standing on the deck of a pitching ship) should be as per the grace-gift unless that circumstance is the only reason that the check exists in the first place rather than merely being a modifier.
Work With the Grace-Gift: In this case the grace-gift must make a check as above but against a halved DC ((or just at -10 to the DC?)). If this check fails then concentration is broken as if the caster had failed the overall concentration check. If it is successful then the original caster gains a circumstance bonus on their concentration check equal to half of the grace-gift's total modifier on concentration checks.
Do Without the Grace-Gift's Help: The original caster attempts the concentration check as usual without any effect from this ability.

This ability has a duration of one round per grace-gift level, and may be renewed after it expires on the same spell, or with a readied action triggered as the previous duration expires so as to leave no gap in continuity. A given spell, caster, and/or grace-gift may only be the subject of one instance of this ability(including the below variant) at a time.

Full responsibility:
At 15th level a second option becomes available, in this case the grace-gift takes on the full burden of maintaining the spell. This may be done as a swift, move, or standard action. They roll any necessary concentration checks if circumstances relative to the spell itself or the grace-gift would require such a spell. In no case does this give the grace-gift any control over the ability other than the ability to cease concentration on it.
Example: Jalim is maintaining a Improved Major Image* of a small pack of lions backed by a wide bonfire to deflect a stampede of wildebeest from a fallen comrade. Seeing a treacherous local guide drawing a dagger and moving stealthily to a point directly behind Jalim(perhaps wishing to start his assault with a full-attack rather than a single attack). On his turn Timothy the grace-gift moves to within range of Jalim then uses the higher-level option of this ability ability as a swift action before shouting a warning. Jalim turns and attempts to deflect the stab with the planes of invisible force produced by his Bracers of Armor +2 but the dagger strikes home. No concentration check is necessary because Jalim is not the one responsible for maintaining concentration over the Improved Major Image* any more. Timothy tries to reason with the traitor, but fails, and gets stabbed for his trouble. Timothy is now required to make a concentration check to keep the 3 round delay on the end of the spell from starting. Timothy makes the concentration check, as Jalim sees the force of the herd press some uncomfortably close to them. Jalim responds by having the male lion step backwards into the illusionary fire in apparent fear of the stampede before him and then rushing towards the wildebeest fully engulfed in flames and maddened with pain, making sure to have the lion react to the force of the blow as one of the passing creatures gores it with a horn(otherwise the whole illusion would fail since no concentration check is involved). Timothy draws his net and casts it at the traitor as he hopes that the fierceness of the illusion will counter the added lack of realism.
*Just made this spell up since, as I read it, Major Image would allow you to do ONE lion OR the bonfire.

Come and Eat! (Sp):
You may cast Heroes Feast 1/day provided you are within 30 feet of at least two allies who will be sharing in the feast. You may partake or not as you choose, but if you do the effects on you only (including the nutritive and hydrating benefits) end if, within the next 12 hours from the completion of the 1 hour eating period, there are not at least two individuals within 30 feet of you who are benefiting from the magical effects of this ability.

Helping Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/helpingHand.htm)1+/day
Astral Hospice (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040711b&page=2) 1+/day
Something approximating a single-target Status, Greater 1+/day. Subtract 10 or so from grace-gift level to determine what spell-like grace-gift abilities can be used and what their strengths are for level-based effects. These always target a single character only.


Allow "Martial Stance(Intercepting Arrow Kata)" as a bonus feat at level 13? Probably not... requires the use of a weapon they don't start out as proficient with to use well, requires attack rolls, doesn't have any element of self-sacrifice and... just doesn't fit as well as it did at first glance. Still I could be talked into it (including by myself).


Was considering adding Handle Animal to the class skill list, but now I can't think why.


Gift of Vision(Sp): At 2nd level a grace-gift may grant greater vision to another at the cost of his own. This ability requires a swift action, and causes the grace-gift to go blind and lose all abilities that grant the equivalent or near-equivalent of vision such as Blind-sight, Blind-sense, Tremor-sense, etc for as long as the improved vision is granted. This does not effect the Scent special quality except as it is used to locate the specific square(s) that a creature or object is in or the Blind-fight feat. This ability grants one ally within 30' Low-Light Vision(as per the spell, except as otherwise noted), or increases the range of such vision to four times instead of twice the vision of a human if the target already has low-light vision. This ability lasts 1 round, and may be extended by 1 round with a swift action (note that this does not require the grace-gift to have any idea where the target is, although the ability fails, returning the grace-gift's sight if the target is not within range at that time). When used in this way this ability is the equivalent of a 1st level divine spell.

At later levels the grace-gift acquires other ways of using this ability. In all cases the durations and penalties involved in its use remain the same.

At 3th level the grace-gift may instead grant the effects of a See Invisibility spell. When used in this way this ability is the equivalent of a 2nd level divine spell.

At 4th level the grace-gift may instead grant the effects of a Darkvision spell. When used in this way this ability is the equivalent of a 2nd level divine spell.

At 7th level you may grant Low Light Vision or See Invisibility to two targets each time you use those versions of this ability. These may be the same target if you wish. When used in this way this ability is the equivalent of a 4th level divine spell.

At 8th level the allowable range between the grace-gift and the target of this ability increases to 60 feet.

At 9th level the grace-gift may instead grant the effects of a Arcane Sight spell. The penalties to the grace-gift remain the same. When used in this way this ability is the equivalent of a 3rd level divine spell.

At 10th level a grace-gift may grant a total of three Low-Light Vision and See Invisibility effects when using that ability. These may be to any combination of targets within range. When used in this way this ability is the equivalent of a 5th level divine spell.

At 12th level a grace-gift may instead grant two effects to the same or different targets. These effect may be any of Arcane Sight, Detect Invisibility, Dark Vision, and/or Low-Light Vision. When used in this way this ability is the equivalent of a 6th level divine spell.

At 16th level a grace-gift may instead grant three effects from the above list (instead of two) to the same or different targets. When used in this way this ability is the equivalent of a 7th level divine spell.

At 18th level a grace-gift may instead grant a single ally within the range of this ability a True Seeing effect. When used in this way this ability is the equivalent of a 6th level divine spell.

At 20th Level a grace-gift may instead grant four of the following effects to the same or different targets: Arcane Sight, Detect Invisibility, Dark Vision, and/or Low-Light Vision. When used in this way this ability is the equivalent of a 8th level divine spell.


Preservation(Su): By spending 1 hour tending to a corpse, a Grace-Gift of at least 3rd level may attempt a DC 20 heal check. If it is successful, decay does not occur for the next 24 hours. Doing so effectively extends the time limit on raising that creature from the dead (see raise dead). Days spent under the influence of this ability donít count against the time limit. Additionally, this ability makes transporting a fallen comrade more pleasant.

Gift of Voice(Sp): At 4th level a grace-gift may give up all ability to to speak, write, read, and otherwise understand language to grant the ability to speak and read all languages he normally knows to all allies within 60'. He can still understand body language and basic gestures.


Gift of Immunity(Sp): Starting at 7th level, as a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity a grace-gift may touch another creature and grant it immunity to a single spell with a level no more than that specified by the following chart. The grace-gift may dismiss a single such instance of this ability (so NOT multiple immunities on the same or different target(s)) as a full round action. The number of effects they may have running at the same time is given on the following table. If they are at(or somehow above) this limit they must first one or more existing instances effect before adding a new one. The benefits of this ability end for any target that is ever more than 30 feet from the grace-gift at both the start and the end of any of grace-gift's turn (or beyond that range at all outside of initiative), but the grace-gift must still dismiss the effect before they lose the associated penalty (see below) or it stops counting against their maximum.
{table="Head"]GG Level|Max. Spell Level / Effective Spell Level|Max. Active At Once

7th|
4th|
1

8th|
4th|
2

9th|
5th|
2

10th|
5th|
3

11th|
6th|
3

12th|
6th|
4

13th|
7th|
4

14th|
7th|
5

15th|
8th|
5

16th|
8th|
6

17th|
9th|
6

18th|
9th|
7

19th|
9th|
7

20th|
9th|
8[/table]
The warded creature effectively has unbeatable spell resistance regarding the specified spell or spells. Naturally, that immunity doesnít protect a creature from spells for which spell resistance doesnít apply. Spell immunity protects against spells, spell-like effects of magic items, and innate spell-like abilities of creatures. It does not protect against supernatural or extraordinary abilities, such as breath weapons or gaze attacks.

Only a particular spell can be protected against, not a certain domain or school of spells or a group of spells that are similar in effect.

In any case the grace-gifts class special abilities provide him no protection against a spell he is granting another creature from, and he automatically fails all saving throws against it. Note especially that the AC bonus from Gift of Protection does not apply to any attack rolls made as part of such a spell.

If the grace-gift would be protected by Spell Immunity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellImmunity.htm), Spell Immunity, Greater (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spellImmunityGreater.htm) or a similiar spell or effect against a spell that they are currently providing immunity to via this ability then the immunity to that/those spell(s) that the grace-gift is provided is dismissed as if they had spent a full-round action for each such spell and the immunity provided TO the grace-gift against that/those specific spell(s) is negated. If this would negate all immunities provided TO the grace-gift by a given spell or effect that spell or effect is considered countered. In similar fashion, attempting to provide immunity to another to a spell that the grace-gift is immune to due to Spell Immunity, Spell Immunity, Greater or a similar spell or effect provides no protection, instead removing that immunity from the grace-gift. Again, if this removes all immunities provided by a given spell or effect then that spell or effect is considered dispelled.

((How should this interact with Spell Immunity(Greater?) on the TARGETS as far as being mutually exclusive? Full exclusion seems the safest route, but with the cap on how many individual immunities the grace-gift can provide I don't know if that is fair.))

High-level Gift of Time option that freezes you in place (even in mid-air?) but you can still be injured, auto-fail all reflex saves, can even be coup-de-graced. Can't be moved from spot without tearing you to pieces/crushing you to death against the force holding you in place. This lasts 4 rounds. At the end of the 2nd round you pick one ally (not requiring LoS since you can't turn your head) to receive a 3 round Time Stop. This is the ONLY action you may undertake for those 4 rounds. This is at-will. ((Going to be FUN seeing what actual uses the non-munchkin power-gamers can come up with for this one!))




Ok. For my reference, did you look at the other comments? Knowing this would help me give context to this comment.

I read some of it yes.


I don't suppose you can clarify why this particular combination came to mind?
Because the healbot can take care of whatever effects get through to the Grace-gift (or other party members), thus making them multiplicative with eachother?
I agree that, as currently written, they aren't exactly a replacement for a cleric in the party in most campaigns.

The overlap would be one nasty buffing machine. If the group is short casters and has to rely on frontline melee, one of these and a cleric in back could really boost the frontline.



"Hello, my name is Mother Nightingale, this is my hospital. If you come to visit, or to receive treatment or instruction, then welcome indeed. If you come here to offer violence to any, then I will refer you to the list I have posted by the door of those I have added to the patient list in the past."

List of mass buff spells. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249187)

Threads in ROLEPLAYING section where I asked for help on specific aspects of this:
AoO builds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13543984#post13543984)


Threads researching aspects of this:

Mass Curing of very small numbers of hitpoints (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252498)
+1 to all saving throws (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241298)
AC Bonus Order (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=237826)

DracoDei
2012-06-25, 04:43 PM
((Nothing here yet.))

Callous
2012-06-25, 05:12 PM
What is this? :smallcool:

DracoDei
2012-06-25, 06:12 PM
What is this? :smallcool:
First off, the fact that you posted was fine. I reserved as many posts as I needed already, but wasn't going to change the thread title until I had split apart the main table (or at least made split versions of it) and perhaps gotten some more play-testing done. I didn't want to "nag" the Playground by displaying this class too insistently.

But to answer both of the interpretations of your question that come to my mind...
What is the class?
It is a base class I have been working on a while and is currently in playtest. I like to say it isn't supposed to be the wind beneath the party's wings, it is supposed to be the SCRAM-jet beneath their wings.

The core idea was a class that gets a host of marvelous defenses, but is challenged in combat to survive since its major contribution is giving those defenses away. Later I added abilities with the goal of it being able to cure just about anything a cleric of equal level can if MUCH more slowly in many cases. I also put in some abilities that enhance its AoOs. In other words it is the concept of "Defender" taken to such an extreme that it accomplishes nearly nothing directly during its turn and it is only during the turns of its allies or enemies that it materially effects the battle.

Almost everything about the class can be enhanced by one or more feats. Needless to say this is a LOT of feats, even if one only counts the original, class-specific ones.

I suspect people were scared away from the first thread by the odd concept, and how big the main table is.

What is the reason I made a new thread?
I keep thinking of more options for it, and since it is pretty lacking at the higher levels I keep putting them in. Admittedly SOME of my new ideas effect the lower levels too, but since the class is, almost by definition, never going to hog the spotlight I put those in too. In any case my edits kept causing the first post in its old thread to exceed the character limits for a single post, despite my moving the feats, development notes, and ideas for continuation separate post(s) in that thread. I got tired of trying to find development notes I could delete, or stuff I could move to a different post, so I made a new thread with LOTS of break-down.

Welknair
2012-07-07, 11:02 PM
For the first time since.. ever, I'm actually a player in an ongoing campaign. I've played a couple of one shots, and have been DMing for years, but haven't ever been a player before. Guess which class I chose? :smallamused:

So yeah, the I am naturally interested in where you go with this. It's a very original and unique type of character, and one that frankly suits my style of play ("Try not to let everyone die").

Notes:
1. I was a bit confused by how you structured the bonus feat lists. Namely, List III says "Grace-Gift 5" on it, yet at that level on the table they aren't listed as getting a feat. I took it that this number was instead to indicate the minimum level to take the feat, which made sense. Then at level 9 when they DO get a bonus feat, It only goes up to list IV, when List V says "Grace Gift 9". :smallconfused: I think I'm missing something here.

2. AoOs get ridiculous. :smallcool: Evasive Strike+Combat Reflexes (As a bonus, of course)+Blocker+Stand Still. YOU. SHALL NOT. PAAAASS.

3. Touch of the Grace Gift. "Woo, I can heal 16 HP per day, at second level! Ohwait.. What's that? It takes a full round to use? And it maxes at 1/2 my level per round? So.. I can heal 1 hp as a full round action 16 times per day?" :smallfrown: (Not a critique, I understand the reasoning and that it'll improve at upper levels. Just.. Aww)

4. Overall it looks amazing, though it is a tad complicated at first.

If you'd like me to, I can post my findings from my playtest of it.

DracoDei
2012-07-08, 11:01 AM
For the first time since.. ever, I'm actually a player in an ongoing campaign. I've played a couple of one shots, and have been DMing for years, but haven't ever been a player before. Guess which class I chose? :smallamused:
EDIT: I am honored.

So yeah, the I am naturally interested in where you go with this. It's a very original and unique type of character, and one that frankly suits my style of play ("Try not to let everyone die").

Thank you. I was pretty sure there was a niche out there among players.


Notes:
1. I was a bit confused by how you structured the bonus feat lists. Namely, List III says "Grace-Gift 5" on it, yet at that level on the table they aren't listed as getting a feat. I took it that this number was instead to indicate the minimum level to take the feat, which made sense.
This second interpretation is correct.

Then at level 9 when they DO get a bonus feat, It only goes up to list IV,
Oops, that might be a typo.

when List V says "Grace Gift 9". :smallconfused: I think I'm missing something here.

You have the mechanics right. What you are missing is a look behind the scenes.

My father is a computer programmer and so I have something of the mind-set of one (even if very little training in any specific language). Part of that mindset is making things modular so you can change one part of a thing without changing a bunch of other stuff.

The feats are sorted into their roman numeralled lists by power level, and those power levels are mapped onto the class levels via the wizard's spell level progression. This has nearly NOTHING to do with what levels they get bonus feats at.

Meanwhile, I give bonus feats at the class levels I feel are a bit empty, or otherwise in need of a boost. The class itself is a fairly weak concept in many ways, and the ONLY character design choices it offers are the feats and skill-points (EDIT: and the Enhanced Defensive Strike options and first level melee weapon proficiency). For this reason I gave one feat for the first 4 levels. In fact, initially these were static feats, but motionmatrix pointed out that I should give the players choices, so I did... and then things got gloriously out of hand as I eventually brewed up 25+ class-specific feats. Admittedly several of them (the Toughness line and Improved Divine Grace come to mind), are probably underpowered outside of some sort of theoretical optimization. I probably need to give more feats at the later class levels, but I am not quite sure where to put them. EDIT: Powering up the less good original feats could also be good. The "Grace-Gift's Toughness" line should be possible, but I am not so sure how to go about figuring out the exact numbers to do it. Said numbers would be the levels you get access to each one, and when there is a jump of 2 or more versus just 1.

The point being, as things stand, I could edit the table* to move the bonus feats around and the ONLY things I would have to change would be the table*. Meanwhile, if I want to change the power level of a feat I can do that in the feats post and under the bonus feat class feature listing (NOT the table*), and not create a contradiction with the table*.
*Tables as of this second thread, due to my trying to offer more options for how to read it so people would be less intimidated by the size of the table. But that is beside the point.


2. AoOs get ridiculous. :smallcool: Evasive Strike+Combat Reflexes (As a bonus, of course)+Blocker+Stand Still. YOU. SHALL NOT. PAAAASS.
I assume you mean "Defensive Strike", or is "Evasive Strike" a feat I don't know about?

And yeah, it should get pretty good. Note that Blocker requires a full-round action, so you can't move towards the enemy and then do it (at least not until 13th level), but that whole business worked out very well for something that I developed as a secondary function of the class to help round them out a bit. Of course you often will be using BOTH in a given turn since "full-round action" doesn't include a Swift action.


3. Touch of the Grace Gift. "Woo, I can heal 16 HP per day, at second level! Ohwait.. What's that? It takes a full round to use? And it maxes at 1/2 my level per round? So.. I can heal 1 hp as a full round action 16 times per day?" :smallfrown: (Not a critique, I understand the reasoning and that it'll improve at upper levels. Just.. Aww)
Yeah, it isn't anywhere near as much per-day a cleric or even druid's healing abilities (especially at class levels 3 and up), but not bad for a feat. It also isn't competing for spell-slots with almost everything else the class can do like the Vancian healers are dealing with.
The Full-Round and per-round cap were basically my way of saying "But in battle this SHALL NOT substitute for Gift of Protection and Gift of Shielding... take your damage like a man Grace-Gift."

4. Overall it looks amazing, though it is a tad complicated at first.
Yeah, and I don't really think it can be simplified much without taking away from the core concept. The PRESENTATION could perhaps be, but the actual mechanics... they need OPTIONS in combat, and since what they need to be doing varies based on what the enemies (and, to a lesser extent, allies) will be doing, they need a LOT of options.

If you'd like me to, I can post my findings from my playtest of it.
To a homebrewer, play-test data is extremely rare and valuable. PLEASE do.

Welknair
2012-07-08, 11:32 AM
1. Ahh, that makes a lot of sense. I may use that trick on later projects :smalltongue:

2. Woops, meant to say "Evasive Reflexes", from ToB.

3. Well, combat healing was never a terribly good option anyways, and this class is better than most at helping allies not take damage in the first place (The two gifts you mentioned)

4. Can-do! First session was mostly character creation, and then a bit of exposition. The team are all 2nd level humans. My character has proficiency with a mildly brewed wooden training sword, 1d6 nonlethal bludgeoning damage. We're using elite array and I distributed my ability scores how you recommended (looking forward to level 4 when my Cha bumps up to 16). Feat-wise, I chose Force of Personality for Human, Improved Toughness for 1st, and then Stand Still and Touch of the Grace Gift as the bonuses. I plan to take Comat Reflexes as my bonus next level, as well as Blocker for 3rd. I can see how it can get complicatd fast.

DracoDei
2012-07-08, 12:27 PM
1. Ahh, that makes a lot of sense. I may use that trick on later projects :smalltongue:
Slightly less valuable for table-top RPGs than for programming, but yeah...
Also, you DID find a typo in the tables at level 9, and I DID fix it.


2. Woops, meant to say "Evasive Reflexes", from ToB.
Not seeing what you would use that for in that combo, since it lets you take 5' steps INSTEAD of taking an AoO, which rather defeats the point unless you can generate 2 AoOs later in the round by taking a 5' step.

3. Well, combat healing was never a terribly good option anyways, and this class is better than most at helping allies not take damage in the first place (The two gifts you mentioned)
True.

4. Can-do! First session was mostly character creation, and then a bit of exposition. The team are all 2nd level humans. My character has proficiency with a mildly brewed wooden training sword, 1d6 nonlethal bludgeoning damage.
Sounds reasonable. No damage die increase over the sap (ARE you using the changes in red?) but it lets you add more of your strength bonus. Might want to cover what happens with Stand Still if your enemy is immune to subdual damage (constructs and undead). By RAW this works, and it isn't too counter-intuitive that it would actually work like that, but it never hurts to work these things out in advance.

We're using elite array and I distributed my ability scores how you recommended (looking forward to level 4 when my Cha bumps up to 16). Feat-wise, I chose Force of Personality for Human,
I assume this lets you substitute Charisma for Wisdom when making Will saves?

Improved Toughness for 1st,
Probably useful at lower levels. I don't quite recall what I have heard about it at higher levels.

and then Stand Still and Touch of the Grace Gift as the bonuses. I plan to take Combat Reflexes as my bonus next level, as well as Blocker for 3rd. I can see how it can get complicated fast.
Yeah, not as bad as a sorcerer, wizard, or sword-sage, but still some decisions to make (which is a good thing).
You going to be doing anything to increase your reach? The only applicable option I can think of for the next few levels is potions of Enlarge Person.


One of the things I did during the pre-game discussion for Tavar's game was to work out ahead of time which the other players thought were the tastiest buff(s) for their characters. You got that figured out, and if so, did you talk about it with the other players, or did it seem pretty obvious to you?

DracoDei
2012-07-16, 11:13 PM
Your face-to-face group met for the second session yet Welknair?

toapat
2012-07-16, 11:30 PM
My Homebrew is humbled by the sight of this class

DracoDei
2012-07-17, 12:29 AM
My Homebrew is humbled by the sight of this class
Can you be more specific regarding what you like about it?
Or were you just saying that it is really long? Which is unsurprising given that they get individual class abilities that cover a good portion of the curative and buff lists, plus the feats to let you pick which aspects to accentuate. Actually simpler than a cleric if you count the text of all the spells that clerics get as part of the complexity of the class.

EDIT:
Ah, this guy (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13209484#post13209484). I'm not sure how you connected Grappling as being "defensive" unless it was the idea of locking down the opponent. You also needed to specify that the AC bonuses for the two shield's stacks.

But yeah, Grace-Gift gives a lot more options to play around with.

toapat
2012-07-17, 09:14 AM
Ah, this guy (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13209484#post13209484). I'm not sure how you connected Grappling as being "defensive" unless it was the idea of locking down the opponent. You also needed to specify that the AC bonuses for the two shield's stacks.

But yeah, Grace-Gift gives a lot more options to play around with.

Actually grappling was added as to evoke the feeling of being a mountain and crushing your opposition as though a under a landslide. The class is built around the concept of becoming the mountain.

DracoDei
2012-07-17, 12:15 PM
Actually grappling was added as to evoke the feeling of being a mountain and crushing your opposition as though a under a landslide. The class is built around the concept of becoming the mountain.
Ah, I see, I didn't realize it was a later edit...
But I need things explained to me step-by-step a lot of the time. I am very poor at reading implications. Did you like the Grace-Gift? What do you like/not like about it?

toapat
2012-07-17, 02:46 PM
I am impressed by the effort that went into this class, but what i really dislike is how you basically created an entire rulebook for one class.

I like that someone put out the effort to build such a class, but the more you put into a class, the more breakable, or more rigid it becomes.

this is a pretty cool super paladin though

DracoDei
2012-07-17, 03:27 PM
Thank you for your comments, now let me see if I can dig a little deeper to try to understand them.

I am impressed by the effort that went into this class, but what i really dislike is how you basically created an entire rulebook for one class.
Sounds like "nice try, but the end result isn't worth it"?

I like that someone put out the effort to build such a class, but the more you put into a class, the more breakable, or more rigid it becomes.
So you are saying I should have used the spells more directly, without as many tweaks?

I think the key to breaking this class would be a way of redirecting the benefits of the SLA's to yourself plus some way of avoiding the matching penalty. I'm not sure how easy that is to produce since I don't hang out on the optimization boards.

It is mechanically simpler than most full-casters. Not that most of those aren't broken, but the only break I have seen explained for this class (Grace-Gift followers/cohorts) I had already fixed with a warning to the GM, and I am probably going to install the mechanical fix I came up with at some point. If someone can think of one or more specific ways to break this then I might consider that, but so far I am seeing survivability and having a strongly relevant response (out of the MANY responses the class gives you) to any particular threat as being the major problems here.

this is a pretty cool super paladin though
I assume that you are talking about the overall vibe, not the mechanics?
Mechanically they are closer to a non-CoDzilla cleric out of combat and in combat... well to use 4E's term Paladin's are Strikers and Grace-Gifts are Defenders (or perhaps Controllers/Leaders/whatever they call that?) utilizing a combination of Defensive Buffs and AoOs, with some very tasty offensive and utility buffs (and more to come on the offensive buffs I think).

Mechanically:
Matches:

Divine Grace
medium-strength hitpoint healing (well... if you take Touch of the Grace-Gift)
close ranged auras (Aura of Courage for the paladin, several abilities for the grace-gift)
pretty good AC
Non-hitpoint curative stuff (Weak spellcasting for the Paladin, Hands of the Healer etc for the grace-gift).

Non-matches:

Active role in combat is attacking for the Paladin, and he only has one class feature that is preventive for his allies. The Grace-Gift is about prevention and AoOs in combat.
Paladin uses physical attacks in a fairly basic way with a single per-day class feature supporting it. Grace-Gift's are more about the spell-casting, with a sideline of AoOs (or removing weaker foes from allies when/if GET OFF OF THEM!!! enters the picture). That sideline gets CHOICES and requires forethought to set up for maximum effectiveness.
Paladins are per/day for their smite and spellcasting, Grace-Gifts are mostly all-day for their core features (and some of those features take ALL DAY).

toapat
2012-07-17, 04:46 PM
*snip*

Im not saying that, im saying that it becomes easier to either hyperfocus the class, or to underbalance a class when you have so much material, or to create problems you cant deal with.


and i mean in terms of role, the paladin was supposed to be a defender in role and flavor, but was not given very strong defense in mechanics

DracoDei
2012-07-17, 06:58 PM
Im not saying that, im saying that it becomes easier to either hyperfocus the class, or to underbalance a class when you have so much material, or to create problems you cant deal with.
Ah, well yeah, I am creating a new style of play, or something very close to it with the super-short duration buffs. I never really stopped to think about it when I first started writing up the class, but it could prove to be a challenge. Will have to wait for playtest* and/or more specific critique.

*Two are under way! Thank you Welknair for playing in his RL game and Tavar for GMing the PbP(IC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240710) OOC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240688)) I am playing a Grace-Gift in! Of course, all that pesky roleplaying has delayed the play-test of the actual class. So far I have just been "that guy with the maxed ranks in heal" who lets the guy with the demon in his head use his abilities while maintaining a semblance of control. Welknair's report for his first session can be seen further up this page.


and i mean in terms of role, the paladin was supposed to be a defender in role and flavor, but was not given very strong defense in mechanics
I see. Didn't recall that. Thought they were supposed to be "Protectors" in that they kill all the nasties trying to kill the defenseless commoners.

Garryl
2012-07-17, 07:29 PM
This feels very unprofessional to me. It's almost designed to be unreadable. It would be a lot easier to understand without all of the notes saying things along the lines of "You couldn't understand this if you tried, so here's something else." If you're going to put up a work in progress as a usable class, I'd suggest keeping it in a usable form, with your notes either on your computer or in a separate post underneath it (rather than jumbled inside something otherwise workable).

Also, the name irks me for some reason. Maybe "Martyr" or "Giver" instead? Grace-Gift just sounds like two words smushed together, rather than a real name to me.



Main Table For Building/Leveling Up Characters (Note: I DO NOT recommend using this table for getting to know this class or critiquing it, it is MUCH too verbose.)


Ironic, because the class table contains a lot of information that many of the abilities lack. What level they come at, for instance. Or even the existence of some otherwise unlisted abilities (Status, Helping Hand, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are more lurking in there).

Under Code of Conduct, the Able to Bear It ability is mentioned, despite the fact that it doesn't exist.

Why are random passages and abilities in red? It's disconcerting. Are you trying to mess with my mind? Are those the notes your teacher wrote in after correcting it? Are those words written in blood to forge a deal with the demon of darkness and despair who lives at the heart of every forum outage?
- Edit: Nevermind, I saw the note up top about what the red text means. It's still disconcerting and makes it harder to read, though.

Why did you need to create a whole new spell for Carry the Burden, since nobody can actually use it as a spell? Just say what it does and give an effective spell level and be done with it, rather than confusing the issue by adding irrelevant information that also has unintended consequences. Specifically, since it's a spell (and for some reason specified as divine, despite the fact that Grace-Gifts aren't spellcasters at all), Chameleons can cast it, Archivists can learn it, and items can be made with it, and it's apparently on the Grace-Gift's spell list so they have a spell list despite not being spellcasters.

Spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities are normally neither arcane nor divine. Only spells have that distinction. Does the note about saving throws (I think you meant save DCs?) also apply to the supernatural abilities (which don't normally have equivalent spell levels, instead normally having save DCs of 10 + 1/2 HD + ability modifier)?

DracoDei
2012-07-17, 09:45 PM
Finally some more comments on formatting... not as good as specific comments on the abilities themselves, but better than a sharp stick in the eye, and more than I expected with the thread being "offline for maintenance, enter at your own risk", which I ran out of characters to say more clearly in the title.

I am dashing off this response while my anxiety which follows me despite all the homebrewing I have done over the years allows me. Please ask questions about any unclear points.

This feels very unprofessional to me. It's almost designed to be unreadable.
I would welcome SPECIFIC ideas for clarifying it. You said a few things, but I get the sneaking feeling there is a lot more that you felt would be obvious.

The words "clarify this" are anathema to me. They unfortunately often mean nothing for me. I write how my brain works mostly, or in my best imitation of the writing style of what I read, and usually can't improve on that without knowing at least what the specific type of unclarity is, or, better yet, precise (and I mean almost computer programmer/mathematician/grammar-teacher level of precise) directions for making said repairs.

It would be a lot easier to understand without all of the notes saying things along the lines of "You couldn't understand this if you tried, so here's something else."
I never said THAT. I said that one table wasn't worth the effort for the someone critiquing the class (or creating a character from scratch?) rather than leveling up in it... based on what Kane0 said in the previous thread and/or some PMs between us. With only one data-point on how to improve formatting, I went along with what he said to a certain degree (not to the point of changing the underlying mechanics to make the table easier to read).

Apparently you disagree?

Also, if I missed something and said such a thing in more than one place please point them out to me.

If you're going to put up a work in progress as a usable class, I'd suggest keeping it in a usable form, with your notes either on your computer or in a separate post underneath it (rather than jumbled inside something otherwise workable).
And what would such a form be EXACTLY?

My notes mostly ARE in a separate post... only a very small fraction of them are in with the text. Those notes would be very difficult for me to keep in any sort of context in a separate post, and many of them are designed so that if someone reading the class to critique it will notice the question in that context.

No, I am seriously asking, because the first thread used the format you described as far as a single table and got very little response(I swapped some reviews with the only person to comment on it in any depth). Then Kane0 said that I needed to dumb down the table because nobody would read it, so we worked together to split up the tables to group similar concepts together.

Kane0's table suggestions (which I received via PM) went with the tables. I guess I COULD move those to the "ideas for future changes" post.


Also, the name irks me for some reason. Maybe "Martyr" or "Giver" instead? Grace-Gift just sounds like two words smushed together, rather than a real name to me.
Different strokes for different folks? Those sound somehow childish to me. Neologizing seemed the way to go. I could be convinced by enough people saying they prefer such a name. The mechanics are where my focus is.

Ironic, because the class table contains a lot of information that many of the abilities lack. What level they come at, for instance. Or even the existence of some otherwise unlisted abilities (Status, Helping Hand, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are more lurking in there).
I haven't been as good as I might have been about updating the split tables, but up to a certain point of development everything should be on there, including the SLAs. I can go through and try to check that everything on the main table is on one of the sub-tables I made.

Under Code of Conduct, the Able to Bear It ability is mentioned, despite the fact that it doesn't exist.
Yeah, I guess I should change that since I found other things to give them. Good catch.

Why are random passages and abilities in red? It's disconcerting. Are you trying to mess with my mind? Are those the notes your teacher wrote in after correcting it? Are those words written in blood to forge a deal with the demon of darkness and despair who lives at the heart of every forum outage?
- Edit: Nevermind, I saw the note up top about what the red text means. It's still disconcerting and makes it harder to read, though.
Well, since I need to reference this for the play-test game, those need to stay in until they are approved. MAYBE I could just put a [Not Approved by Tavar] tag on those, but that would be harder to locate for discussion.

Why did you need to create a whole new spell for Carry the Burden, since nobody can actually use it as a spell? Just say what it does and give an effective spell level and be done with it, rather than confusing the issue by adding irrelevant information
It seemed the clearest way to state the overall changes. What exactly would you call "irrelevant information"? Any time someone says something like that it throws up huge red flags in my mind since I often have a great deal of trouble knowing what other people consider relevant or irrelevant.

that also has unintended consequences. Specifically, since it's a spell (and for some reason specified as divine, despite the fact that Grace-Gifts aren't spellcasters at all),
Uh... I take it that by your definition Warlocks aren't spellcasters?

Chameleons can cast it, Archivists can learn it, and items can be made with it, and it's apparently on the Grace-Gift's spell list so they have a spell list despite not being spellcasters.
Forgot about those problems, despite having run into them with my Leap Dragoon. I should be able to copy-paste the countering phrases from that work to take care of that.

Spell-like abilities and supernatural abilities are normally neither arcane nor divine.
:smallconfused: Well, maybe technically not(never occurred to me to investigate the matter), but I would certainly call an SLA of a divine-only spell a "divine SLA" and I would say that Warlocks are Arcane casters built around SLAs.

Only spells have that distinction. Does the note about saving throws (I think you meant save DCs?) also apply to the supernatural abilities (which don't normally have equivalent spell levels, instead normally having save DCs of 10 + 1/2 HD + ability modifier)?
Should be "saving throws against his abilities" or something along those lines.

And yes, those would apply to supernatural abilities... except that I am pretty sure that all their supernatural abilities are saveless since they don't target anyone per se.

*Checks to see if he gave any supernatural abilities spell levels.*
Huh... so I did!
Looks like I need to split Divine Protection in the same way I split Shield of the Soul where it is a Supernatural ability with a Spell-like ability that is so closely related that they are best sharing a heading (unless you really think that having more items on the table is a good thing).


EDIT: Added a small disclaimer in the first post after the link to the old thread.

Garryl
2012-07-18, 12:15 AM
Yeah, sorry about that. I was a frustrated with something else and let it come out into my words. This should have been a much more helpful critique than it actually was. My apologies.



I never said THAT. I said that one table wasn't worth the effort for the someone critiquing the class (or creating a character from scratch?) rather than leveling up in it... based on what Kane0 said in the previous thread and/or some PMs between us. With only one data-point on how to improve formatting, I went along with what he said to a certain degree (not to the point of changing the underlying mechanics to make the table easier to read).

Apparently you disagree?

Also, if I missed something and said such a thing in more than one place please point them out to me.


Looking it over again, my comment was indeed entirely about that line, I think. Regardless, it was unfair of me.

Regarding the class table, it could be a lot more clear by having less information. Specifically, most of that extra info in brackets can go. Bonus feats don't need to specify which list they can come from on the table. Most of the abilities don't need to give details when they are originally gained, and only need a very short summary of the changes at higher levels. Really, more of a reminder to a reader who knows the ability than even a summary. For example:


{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+2|A General Rule, An Ounce of Prevention, Aura, Divine Protection, Gift of Resistance, Gift of Shielding, Gift of Tolerance, Swift to Protect, Defensive Strike , Bonus Feat, Life Saver

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+3|Divine Grace, Bonus Feat, Helpful, Master of the Healing-ward

3rd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+3|Defensive Strike(Base Attack Bonus), Bonus Feat, Status 1/day, Courage, Carry the Burden, Enhanced Defensive Strike(Magic), Hands of the Healer

4th|
+2|
+4|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat, Life Saver(Treat Poison and Disease), Gift of Resistance(2 saves), Gift of Time

5th|
+2|
+4|
+4|
+4|An Ounce of Prevention(At-Will), Carry the Burden(fly), Gift of Breath, Gift of Soul, Helping Hand 1/day

6th|
+3|
+5|
+5|
+5|Defensive Strike(+50% damage), Gift of Time(Move Action), Hands of the Healer(Treat Ability Drain, Negative Levels, Level Drain)

7th|
+3|
+5|
+5|
+5|Carry the Burden(2 allies), Enhanced Defensive Strike(1 alignment, Ghost-Touch, and/or Vicious), Gift of Resistance(1 save)

8th|
+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|Divine Protection(15' Radius), Gift of Time (20' range), Status 2/day

9th|
+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|Bonus Feat, Gift of Life, Gift of Resistance (Boost Multiple Saves)

10th|
+5|
+7|
+7|
+3|Carry the Burden(3 allies), Defensive Strike(+100% damage), Gift of Shielding (Swift), Gift of Time(Full-Round action)

11th|
+5|
+7|
+7|
+7|Bonus Feat, Enhanced Defensive Strike(Adamantine), Hands of the Healer(level drain), Shield of the Soul

12th|
+6/+1|
+8|
+8|
+8|Divine Protection(Sacred/Profane), Gift of Time (30' range), Helping Hand 2/day

13th|
+6/+1|
+8|
+8|
+8|Gift of Life(Resurrection), Hands of the Healer(Take 10), Matchless Loyalty, Mobile Defender

14th|
+7/+2|
+9|
+9|
+9|Carry the Burden(4 allies), Bonus Feat, Status At-Will

15th|
+7/+2|
+9|
+9|
+9|Enhanced Defensive Strike(2 options), Gift of Shielding (Immediate), Gift of Time(Grant Swift, Standard)

16th|
+8/+3|
+10|
+10|
+10|Defensive Strike(Class level x 3 damage), Shield of the Soul(Area)

17th|
+8/+3|
+10|
+10|
+10|Bonus Feat, Carry the Burden(5 allies), Gift of Foresight, Gift of Life(True Resurrection)

18th|
+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|Divine Protection(Insight), Gift of Time (40' range)

19th|
+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|Bonus Feat, Shield of the Soul (class level+10)

20th|
+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+12|Gift of Time(Grant Move+Standard action), Gift of Resistance(Half Penalties)[/table]




Uh... I take it that by your definition Warlocks aren't spellcasters?


Nope. They are invokers. They have invocations (which are spell-like abilities, not spell). They do not have a spell list, but they do have an invocation list. They do have a caster level since their invocations are spell-like abilities, but that isn't a sufficient condition to be a "spellcaster". If I recall correctly (and I probably don't), Complete Arcane specifically defines them as not spellcasters, and instead provides exceptions to the normal rules that allows them (as invokers) to qualify for certain options that ordinarily only function for spellcasters (such as gaining a benefit from PrCs that advance spellcasting).



Well, maybe technically not(never occurred to me to investigate the matter), but I would certainly call an SLA of a divine-only spell a "divine SLA" and I would say that Warlocks are Arcane casters built around SLAs.


Warlocks are neither arcane nor divine. They have a specific exception in their ability to cast invocations that causes their invocations to be affected by arcane spell failure, but that does not make them arcane. If I recall correctly (and, again, I probably don't) they can't even benefit from PrCs that specifically advance arcane spellcasting, only unqualified spellcasting.



Forgot about those problems, despite having run into them with my Leap Dragoon. I should be able to copy-paste the countering phrases from that work to take care of that.


Or just don't define it as a new and distinct spell. For example:


Starting at 3rd level, the grace-gift may take the weight of gravity from one of his companions (but not himself). Initially this functions much like a levitate spell, except as follows. The ability has a range of 5 feet per caster level per his Charisma modifier (minimum 5 feet). Using this ability is a swift action. Like all Grace-Gift spell-like abilities, Carry the Burden counts as a divine spell, has both verbal and somatic components, and is subject to the arcane spell failure chance of armor heavier than light armor. This effect lasts 1 round (unless dismissed), unless renewed as a swift action at the beginning of the Grace-Gift's turn. Carry the Burden can only affect a single, willing creature (with no wieght limit).

For the duration of this effect the grace-gift's load is increased by the total weight lifted (that of the target and anything it carries). If the weight taken ever causes the grace-gift's current load maximum encumbrance they fall prone and are considered pinned. For every multiple beyond the first of the Grace-Gift's maximum load that her current load is increased to, she takes 1d8 points of damage each round.

Starting at 5th level, this ability functions as the fly spell, instead of levitate, except as noted above. In addition, when the effect ends, the subject falls immediately, instead of falling slowly for 1d6 rounds.

At 7th level the grace-gift may target two separate allies at once with this ability, however the weight is cumulative. If used in this way it its effective spell level is increased to 4th.

At 10th level this increases to three separate allies. If used in this way it its effective spell level is increased to 5th.

At 14th level this again increases to four separate allies, if used in this way its effective spell level is increased to 7th.

Finally, at 17th level this increases to five separate allies, if used in this way its effective spell level is increased to 9th.


For me, that's also a lot easier to understand, although at least some of that is because I wrote it.

Sorry again for my unhelpfulness earlier. Going to bed now, hopefully this makes up for some of it.

DracoDei
2012-07-18, 11:45 AM
Yeah, sorry about that. I was a frustrated with something else and let it come out into my words. This should have been a much more helpful critique than it actually was. My apologies.
I forgive you. (And I am tired, but not angry, as I write this so there may be errors).


Looking it over again, my comment was indeed entirely about that line, I think.
Good to know.

Regardless, it was unfair of me.
See above comment regarding forgiveness.

Regarding the class table, it could be a lot more clear by having less information. Specifically, most of that extra info in brackets can go. Bonus feats don't need to specify which list they can come from on the table. Most of the abilities don't need to give details when they are originally gained, and only need a very short summary of the changes at higher levels. Really, more of a reminder to a reader who knows the ability than even a summary. For example:
Ok, now THIS is VERY helpful general theory, especially if it doesn't get contradicted by someone else.


{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+2|A General Rule, An Ounce of Prevention, Aura, Divine Protection, Gift of Resistance, Gift of Shielding, Gift of Tolerance, Swift to Protect, Defensive Strike , Bonus Feat, Life Saver

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+3|Divine Grace, Bonus Feat, Helpful, Master of the Healing-ward

3rd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+3|Defensive Strike(Base Attack Bonus), Bonus Feat, Status 1/day, Courage, Carry the Burden, Enhanced Defensive Strike(Magic), Hands of the Healer

4th|
+2|
+4|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat, Life Saver(Treat Poison and Disease), Gift of Resistance(2 saves), Gift of Time

5th|
+2|
+4|
+4|
+4|An Ounce of Prevention(At-Will), Carry the Burden(fly), Gift of Breath, Gift of Soul, Helping Hand 1/day

6th|
+3|
+5|
+5|
+5|Defensive Strike(+50% damage), Gift of Time(Move Action), Hands of the Healer(Treat Ability Drain, Negative Levels, Level Drain)

7th|
+3|
+5|
+5|
+5|Carry the Burden(2 allies), Enhanced Defensive Strike(1 alignment, Ghost-Touch, and/or Vicious), Gift of Resistance(1 save)

8th|
+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|Divine Protection(15' Radius), Gift of Time (20' range), Status 2/day

9th|
+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|Bonus Feat, Gift of Life, Gift of Resistance (Boost Multiple Saves)

10th|
+5|
+7|
+7|
+3|Carry the Burden(3 allies), Defensive Strike(+100% damage), Gift of Shielding (Swift), Gift of Time(Full-Round action)

11th|
+5|
+7|
+7|
+7|Bonus Feat, Enhanced Defensive Strike(Adamantine), Hands of the Healer(level drain), Shield of the Soul

12th|
+6/+1|
+8|
+8|
+8|Divine Protection(Sacred/Profane), Gift of Time (30' range), Helping Hand 2/day

13th|
+6/+1|
+8|
+8|
+8|Gift of Life(Resurrection), Hands of the Healer(Take 10), Matchless Loyalty, Mobile Defender

14th|
+7/+2|
+9|
+9|
+9|Carry the Burden(4 allies), Bonus Feat, Status At-Will

15th|
+7/+2|
+9|
+9|
+9|Enhanced Defensive Strike(2 options), Gift of Shielding (Immediate), Gift of Time(Grant Swift, Standard)

16th|
+8/+3|
+10|
+10|
+10|Defensive Strike(Class level x 3 damage), Shield of the Soul(Area)

17th|
+8/+3|
+10|
+10|
+10|Bonus Feat, Carry the Burden(5 allies), Gift of Foresight, Gift of Life(True Resurrection)

18th|
+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|Divine Protection(Insight), Gift of Time (40' range)

19th|
+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|Bonus Feat, Shield of the Soul (class level+10)

20th|
+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+12|Gift of Time(Grant Move+Standard action), Gift of Resistance(Half Penalties)[/table]

And this saves me a lot of work! I should wait until I am more awake to give a shot at double-checking it, and then quote-save the current table's post so I can have a back-up when I replace most of the tables with this.


Nope. They are invokers. They have invocations (which are spell-like abilities, not spell). They do not have a spell list, but they do have an invocation list. They do have a caster level since their invocations are spell-like abilities, but that isn't a sufficient condition to be a "spellcaster". If I recall correctly (and I probably don't), Complete Arcane specifically defines them as not spellcasters, and instead provides exceptions to the normal rules that allows them (as invokers) to qualify for certain options that ordinarily only function for spellcasters (such as gaining a benefit from PrCs that advance spellcasting).
Well, I actually want them to be able to get into most cleric/paladin PrCs as easily as possible, although how to have spell-casting advancement work with the class MIGHT be a challenge... I think a good start would be "each added caster level instead advances all spell-like abilities that never had a per-day limit as if it was a level of grace-gift, including granting access to new spell-like abilities, increasing caster level, and giving new options for abilities that advance with class level".

Warlocks are neither arcane nor divine. They have a specific exception in their ability to cast invocations that causes their invocations to be affected by arcane spell failure, but that does not make them arcane. If I recall correctly (and, again, I probably don't) they can't even benefit from PrCs that specifically advance arcane spellcasting, only unqualified spellcasting.
Yeah, that last bit proves it was a mistake in my book, and one I see no reason to repeat.

Or just don't define it as a new and distinct spell. For example:


Starting at 3rd level, the grace-gift may take the weight of gravity from one of his companions (but not himself). Initially this functions much like a levitate spell, except as follows. The ability has a range of 5 feet per caster level per his Charisma modifier (minimum 5 feet). Using this ability is a swift action. Like all Grace-Gift spell-like abilities, Carry the Burden counts as a divine spell, has both verbal and somatic components, and is subject to the arcane spell failure chance of armor heavier than light armor. This effect lasts 1 round (unless dismissed), unless renewed as a swift action at the beginning of the Grace-Gift's turn. Carry the Burden can only affect a single, willing creature (with no wieght limit).

For the duration of this effect the grace-gift's load is increased by the total weight lifted (that of the target and anything it carries). If the weight taken ever causes the grace-gift's current load maximum encumbrance they fall prone and are considered pinned. For every multiple beyond the first of the Grace-Gift's maximum load that her current load is increased to, she takes 1d8 points of damage each round.

Starting at 5th level, this ability functions as the fly spell, instead of levitate, except as noted above. In addition, when the effect ends, the subject falls immediately, instead of falling slowly for 1d6 rounds.

At 7th level the grace-gift may target two separate allies at once with this ability, however the weight is cumulative. If used in this way it its effective spell level is increased to 4th.

At 10th level this increases to three separate allies. If used in this way it its effective spell level is increased to 5th.

At 14th level this again increases to four separate allies, if used in this way its effective spell level is increased to 7th.

Finally, at 17th level this increases to five separate allies, if used in this way its effective spell level is increased to 9th.

Could work... will have to look at it when I have my head more together.

For me, that's also a lot easier to understand, although at least some of that is because I wrote it.
Well, I will think about swapping this out.

Sorry again for my unhelpfulness earlier. Going to bed now, hopefully this makes up for some of it.
Yeah, tired as I write this too.

DracoDei
2012-07-19, 02:48 PM
Stuff from DnD-Wiki IRC chat:1:37 <DanielDraco >Those are passive.
21:37 <DanielDraco >PAssive is not fun to play.
21:38 <DanielDraco >It's sitting there and watching people roll dice against you.
21:39 <DanielDraco >I would say that it's generally a fairly well balanced class. I just wouldn't necessarily call it a /good/ class. It's kind of like calling a stone wall a balanced obstacle -- sure it might be appropriate, but does anyone want to take control of one and have that be their responsibility in the game?
21:39 <DracoDei >Apparently yes.
21:40 <DracoDei >Very few people, but those that do very much appreciate the chance.
21:40 <DanielDraco >Maybe if you capitalize more on the "the challenge is to survive" thing by giving it more things it can do to make that happen.
21:41 <DracoDei >You got any ideas for that, or just that general concept?
21:41 <DanielDraco >Make its risks riskier, and give it self-healing options, evasion options, etc. -- but make those take actions, limiting how much help it can be.
21:41 <DanielDraco >Nothing specific atm, thinking broadly right now
21:41 <DracoDei >Ok.
21:41 <DanielDraco >Because the issue is that yes, it can be exciting to play this character and think "**** **** **** I'm gonna die, what can do I about it?"
21:41 <DracoDei >I did give it one in-combat self-healing option.
21:41 <DanielDraco >It's just that the answer to that question is "**** all"
21:43 <DracoDei >Ctrl+F for "Protector's Reward" (which I am unsure about right now).
21:44 <DracoDei >Oh, and for just a touch of offense, there is "GET OFF OF THEM!!!" (Caps and exclaimation points very much intentional).
21:45 <DracoDei >I know that Whirlwind Attack is weak, but that is because it comes at late levels, and has tons of pre-requisites.
21:45 <DanielDraco >where's its in-combat healing?
21:45 <DanielDraco >well also because you /usually/ don't face more than a handful of foes
21:46 <DracoDei >Protector's Reward <-The feat for self-healing in combat.
21:46 <DracoDei >Depends on the group.
21:47 <DracoDei >Our only major encounter so far has been about 4 dire rats, an APL+1 or more caster who was large sized, and 3 swarms of templated rats.
21:48 <AuraHorse >did you ever want to let the dire rats bite you? just in case you turn into a wererat?
21:49 <DracoDei >No, but our main DPS got mobbed.
21:50 <AuraHorse >that awkward moment when the main melee gets mobbed by dire rats... and the dire rats are actually were rats... and the main melee character uses weapon finesse
21:50 *** Draco_Dei joined #dnd
Chat for http://dnd-wiki.org/ | We may have many tabs open - responses may take a few minutes. | Happy 2013!
Topic set by TarkIsAround on Tue Jan 01 2013 15:24:51 GMT-0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
21:51 <Draco_Dei >Last thing I saw before accidentally hitting the "Back" button: 21:50 <AuraHorse >that awkward moment when the main melee gets mobbed by dire rats... and the dire rats are actually were rats... and the main melee character uses weapon finesse
21:52 <AuraHorse >yeah, i ran a game where that happened once
21:52 <AuraHorse >lol
21:52 <DanielDraco >I'm really not sure what to suggest. I feel like it needs more active things to do, rather than just sustaining buffs each round. But that would need a nerf on its buffs or else it's then doing too much.
21:52 <Draco_Dei >What does Weapon Finesse have to do with it?
21:52 <AuraHorse >main melee was a samurai. Were rat samurai is pretty nice
21:52 <Draco_Dei >It needs to have the buffs feel like they ARE active things to do.
21:52 <AuraHorse >because +6 to dexterity
21:52 <AuraHorse >in alternate form
21:53 <Draco_Dei >AuraHorse: Alignment change wasn't a problem?
21:53 <AuraHorse >Draco: no, he was an evil samurai
21:53 <DanielDraco >Then give it more buffs that aren't numbers.
21:53 <AuraHorse >the chaos only manifested on full moon
21:53 <AuraHorse >when the involuntary change took
21:53 <DanielDraco >What those may be, that's up to you to determine
21:53 <DanielDraco >Maybe some swift action battlefield control
21:54 <DanielDraco >That's more fun than giving a bonus, and not too brash for the feel of the class
21:55 <AuraHorse >I actually liked the wererat samurai
21:55 <Draco_Dei >The AoOs are Battlefield control for my character... then again he has a belt that enlarges him, EWP(Spiked Chain), Lesser Mage Slayer, and Power Attack (which is actually a bit useless).
21:55 <DanielDraco >But those AoOs are so freaking limited. And they're not active.
21:56 <DanielDraco >Well, I guess they are, but they're /re/active.
21:56 <AuraHorse >well, if you had Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Power Attack, it would be nice
21:56 <AuraHorse >with that spiked chain
21:56 <Draco_Dei >Oh... wait...
21:56 <DanielDraco >I'd give him something to do to control the situation with a swift action -- an alternative to a buff.
21:56 <DanielDraco >So he has some tactical decisions to make other than whcih bonus to give
21:56 <Draco_Dei >Yes, I do have Combat Expertese... forgot about that one... and because I took it as a class bonus feat it cues off Charisma instead of Dexterity.
21:57 <AuraHorse >ha
21:57 <AuraHorse >you mean from intelligence, right?
21:57 <AuraHorse >13 intelligence?
21:57 <Draco_Dei >The class is already sorta MAD, so I gave them that option.
21:57 <Draco_Dei >Nope.
21:57 <Draco_Dei >I mean charisma.
21:57 <AuraHorse >I know you mean charisma
21:57 <AuraHorse >but int as opposed to dex
21:57 <DanielDraco >It normally uses Int, not Dex
21:57 <Draco_Dei >You MAY be thinking of PF.
21:58 <AuraHorse >I am thinking of D&D 3rd editions
21:58 <AuraHorse >but think it's the same in PF, yeah
21:58 *** DanielDraco quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
21:58 *** DanielDraco joined #dnd
21:58 <DanielDraco >whoops, wrong hotkey
21:58 <Draco_Dei >http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatReflexes
21:59 <Draco_Dei >I don't know PF hardly at all.
21:59 <AuraHorse >oh, Combat Reflexes
21:59 <DanielDraco >You said Expertise earlier
21:59 <AuraHorse >that's different from Expertise
21:59 <Draco_Dei >Oh... sorry.
21:59 <AuraHorse >you need 13 int to get CE, you need CE to get Improved Trip
21:59 <AuraHorse >and you need exotic weapon to use spiked chain
21:59 <AuraHorse >you use combat reflex for more AoO
22:00 <Draco_Dei >No, I don't have Combat Expertese.
22:00 <AuraHorse >power attack is nice to go with expertise
22:00 <Draco_Dei >I actually had the class drop a lot of the requirements from its bonus feats.
22:00 <DanielDraco >I would suggest that you do /not/ lengthen the leash on the save bonus, at least
22:01 <DanielDraco >It can easily become "my allies auto-pass saves, and I auto-fail them" -- which becomes broken if you can do this from a distance
22:01 <Draco_Dei >DanielDraco: Yeah, that one already has a pretty long leash. Maybe a feat that x1.5's the range at high levels.
22:01 <DanielDraco >what's its longest range right now?
22:01 <Draco_Dei >For the saves thing?
22:01 <Draco_Dei >Or out of all of its abilities?
22:02 <DanielDraco >saves thing -- that's the one with the potential to be broken
22:02 <DanielDraco >or, well, greater potential
22:02 <Draco_Dei >10/30 feet, doesn't change with level.
22:02 <DanielDraco >Ah, alright. That's...reasonable
22:02 <Draco_Dei >Full effect within 10 feet, half-strength if outside that but within 30.
22:04 <DanielDraco >I would place a limit on the AC bonus. You say this class is MAD, but I'm seeing only Cha -- so that bonus is going to be quite large, and can be laying on top of the allies' native bonuses of similar magnitude
22:04 <Draco_Dei >Sounds like I lucked out picking a boost to the exchange rate for that as one of the 20th level capstones (the other being the ability to hand an ally a standard+move action = full-round action).
22:04 <DanielDraco >And I would remove the ability to change the bonus type. Keep it one thing, unchanging, unconditional.
22:05 <DanielDraco >Otherwise you can get a group of four of them together, and you've got ridiculous stacking bonuses
22:06 <DanielDraco >Or even just two.
22:06 <Draco_Dei >It needs STR for Carry the Burden, Con for hitpoints for "Gift of Shielding" (and Gift of Breath and Gift of Tolerence, but those are very situational... well, and Gift of Life, but that is pitiful in most games.).
22:06 <Draco_Dei >Hmmm... interesting point.
22:07 <DanielDraco >Get two together, and the penalty is negated. Free uberbuff.
22:07 <DanielDraco >Three or four, and they get a profit.
22:08 <Draco_Dei >Only at 20th level.
22:08 <Draco_Dei >Wait...
22:08 <DanielDraco >No -- the moment they get access to a second bonus type
22:08 <Draco_Dei >Sorry, you are talking about the Area AC buff...
22:08 <DanielDraco >Yes, sorry
22:09 <DanielDraco >Although I would remove the 20th level resistance boost
22:09 <DanielDraco >for similar reasons
22:09 <AuraHorse >dodge bonus also stacks: don't know what kind of AC buff you all are talking about, but since we're on the topic of keeping the bonus one type so it won't stack up, avoid using dodge
22:09 <AuraHorse >you probably already know
22:09 <Draco_Dei >The can't do dodge bonuses.
22:09 <Draco_Dei >*They
22:10 <DanielDraco >I'd make it straight-up deflection
22:10 <AuraHorse >okay, I'm not sure which edition you guys are in, so apologies
22:10 <DanielDraco >never anything else
22:10 <Draco_Dei >3.X
22:10 <AuraHorse >man
22:10 <AuraHorse >I'm glad I don't play at your table LOL no offense
22:10 <DanielDraco >not a fan of 3e?
22:10 <AuraHorse >I do like 3e
22:10 <AuraHorse >but a lot of homerules I don't really like
22:10 <AuraHorse >not always
22:10 <AuraHorse >sometimes
22:10 <Draco_Dei >The reason I let them change was so they could eventually stack with their allies' /Rings of Protection/
22:11 <DanielDraco >It's already a very large boost. I would suggest keeping it deflection precisely so they /can't/ stack with that.


Garryl: Was working my way through the table you gave me, alphabetizing the abilities at each level (my fault they weren't, not your's) and making sure that nothing was left out. Everything was going 100% fine until 3rd level where I ran into some questions.

The first is that I replaced "Defensive Strike(Base Attack Bonus)" with "Defensive Strike(To-Hit)". This includes the charisma bonus in the concept, and also... well, phrasing anything in that ability in terms of base attack bonus was my way of stating things in the most simple way possible, rather than making the bit with the weird formula the main way of explaining the mechanics.

The other thing I did was follow you advice to the letter by changing "Enhanced Defensive Strike(Magic)" to simply "Enhanced Defensive Strike". This isn't the way the monk does it in the SRD though. Of course, that would argue against the whole idea of what you were saying about leaving out the baselines of things and only listing upgrades in parantheses, and we KNOW the table is overly wordy... although the alphabetization within each level may help.

What do people think?

I haven't gotten much past this point yet, but only due to being interrupted by the time-limits on a public terminal I am using at the moment.

EDIT: Have been moving forward with the alphabetizing part. When I got to 6th level I was uncertain if "+50% damage" was better than "level x1.5"...

Working copy of Garryl's suggested table that have alphabetized, and now need to check that everything that is in the main text is on it, and vice-versa.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+2| A General Rule, An Ounce of Prevention, Aura, Bonus Feat, Defensive Strike, Divine Protection, Gift of Resistance, Gift of Shielding, Gift of Tolerance, Life Saver, Swift to Protect

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+3| Bonus Feat, Divine Grace, Helpful, Master of the Healing-ward

3rd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+3| Bonus Feat, Carry the Burden, Courage, Defensive Strike(To-Hit), Status 1/day, Enhanced Defensive Strike(Magic), Hands of the Healer

4th|
+2|
+4|
+4|
+4| Bonus Feat, Gift of Resistance(2 saves), Gift of Time, Life Saver(Treat Poison and Disease)

5th|
+2|
+4|
+4|
+4| An Ounce of Prevention(At-Will), Carry the Burden(fly), Gift of Breath, Gift of Soul, Helping Hand 1/day

6th|
+3|
+5|
+5|
+5| Defensive Strike(+50% damage), Gift of Time(Move Action), Hands of the Healer(Treat Ability Drain, Negative Levels, Level Drain)

7th|
+3|
+5|
+5|
+5| Bonus Feat, Carry the Burden(2 allies), Enhanced Defensive Strike(1 alignment, Ghost-Touch, or Vicious), Gift of Resistance(1 save)

8th|
+4|
+6|
+6|
+6| Divine Protection(15' Radius), Gift of Time (20' range), Status 2/day

9th|
+4|
+6|
+6|
+6| Bonus Feat, Gift of Life, Gift of Resistance (Boost Multiple Saves)

10th|
+5|
+7|
+7|
+3| Carry the Burden(3 allies), Defensive Strike(+100% damage), Gift of Shielding (Swift), Gift of Time(Full-Round action)

11th|
+5|
+7|
+7|
+7|Bonus Feat, Enhanced Defensive Strike(Adamantine), Hands of the Healer(level drain), Shield of the Soul

12th|
+6/+1|
+8|
+8|
+8|Divine Protection(Sacred/Profane), Gift of Time (30' range), Helping Hand 2/day

13th|
+6/+1|
+8|
+8|
+8|Gift of Life(Resurrection), Hands of the Healer(Take 10), Matchless Loyalty, Mobile Defender

14th|
+7/+2|
+9|
+9|
+9|Bonus Feat, Carry the Burden(4 allies), Status At-Will

15th|
+7/+2|
+9|
+9|
+9|Enhanced Defensive Strike(2 options), Gift of Shielding (Immediate), Gift of Time(Grant Swift, Standard)

16th|
+8/+3|
+10|
+10|
+10|Defensive Strike(Class level x 3 damage), Shield of the Soul(Area)

17th|
+8/+3|
+10|
+10|
+10|Bonus Feat, Carry the Burden(5 allies), Gift of Foresight, Gift of Life(True Resurrection)

18th|
+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|Divine Protection(Insight), Gift of Time (40' range)

19th|
+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|Bonus Feat, Shield of the Soul (class level+10)

20th|
+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+12|Gift of Time(Grant Move+Standard action), Gift of Resistance(Half Penalties)[/table]




Backups of tables I am probably going to remove from the table's post:

Base Attack Bonus, Saves, Bonus Feats and Passive and/or Strictly Out of Combat Abilities(Work in Progress)
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+2|An Ounce of Prevention (1/level), Aura, Bonus Feat (I), Defensive Strike(Damage)

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+3|Defensive Strike(To-hit), Divine Grace, Bonus Feat(I), Master of the Healing-ward

3rd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+3|Bonus Feat(I or II), Courage, Enhanced Defensive Strike(Magic), Hands of the Healer(Treat Blindness/Deafness, Ability Score Penalties), Status 1/day

4th|
+2|
+4|
+4|
+4|Bonus Feat(I or II), Life Saver(Treat Poison and Disease)

5th|
+2|
+4|
+4|
+4|An Ounce of Prevention (At-Will), Gift of Soul, Helping Hand 1/day

6th|
+3|
+5|
+5|
+5|Defensive Strike(Class level x 1.5 damage), Hands of the Healer(Treat Ability Drain, Negative Levels, Level Drain)

7th|
+3|
+5|
+5|
+5|Enhanced Defensive Strike(1 alignment, Ghost-Touch, or Vicious)

8th|
+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|Status 1/day

9th|
+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|Bonus Feat(I to V), Gift of Life(Raise Dead)

10th|
+5|
+7|
+7|
+3|Defensive Strike(Class level x 2 damage)

11th|
+5|
+7|
+7|
+7|Bonus Feat(I to VI)((Red because moved from 12th level)), Enhanced Defensive Strike(Adamantine), Hands of the Healer(remove drained levels up to 1 week/grace-gift level)

12th|
+6/+1|
+8|
+8|
+8|, Helping Hand 2/day

13th|
+6/+1|
+8|
+8|
+8|Gift of Life(Resurrection), Hands of the Healer(Take 10), Matchless Loyalty

14th|
+7/+2|
+9|
+9|
+9|Bonus Feat(I to VII), Status At-Will

15th|
+7/+2|
+9|
+9|
+9|Enhanced Defensive Strike(2 alignments, Ghost-Touch, and/or Vicious)

16th|
+8/+3|
+10|
+10|
+10|Defensive Strike(Class level x 3 damage)

17th|
+8/+3|
+10|
+10|
+10|Bonus Feat(I to IX), Gift of Life(True Resurrection)

18th|
+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|-

19th|
+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|Bonus Feat(I to IX)

20th|
+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+12|-[/table]

Active and/or In Combat Abilities
{table=head]Level|Special

1st|A General Rule, Divine Protection(Deflection), Gift of Resistance(Penalty to all Saves), Gift of Shielding, Gift of Tolerance, Swift to Protect, Life Saver(Stabilize, Long-term Care, Treat Bleeding Wound, Treat caltrop-etc wound)

2nd|Helpful

3rd|Carry the Burden(1 ally, levitate)

4th|Life Saver(Treat Poison and Disease), Gift of Resistance(Penalty to 2 Save Types), Gift of Time(+20' movement)

5th|Carry the Burden(1 ally, fly), Gift of Breath

6th|Gift of Time(Move Action)

7th|Carry the Burden(2 allies), Gift of Resistance(Penalty to 1 Save Type)

8th|Divine Protection(15' Radius), Gift of Time (20' range)

9th|Gift of Resistance(Boost Multiple Saves)

10th|Carry the Burden(3 allies), Gift of Shielding (Swift or Standard Action), Gift of Time(Only Requires a Full-Round action)

11th|Shield of the Soul

12th|Divine Protection(Sacred/Profane), Gift of Time (30' range)

13th|Mobile Defender

14th|Carry the Burden(4 allies)

15th|Gift of Shielding (Immediate, Swift or Standard Action), Gift of Time(Grant Swift, Standard, OR Move Action)

16th|Shield of the Soul(Area)

17th|Carry the Burden(5 allies), Gift of Foresight

18th|Divine Protection(Insight), Gift of Time (40' range)

19th|Shield of the Soul (class level+10)

20th|Gift of Time(Give Move+Standard action), Gift of Resistance(Half Penalties)
[/table]

COMPLETELY New Abilities by Level, Without Details on Upgrades/Sub-abilities Available(But includes all bonus-feat gains, even if they are for a degree (I to IX) that you already gained)
{table=head]Level|Special

1st|A General Rule, An Ounce of Prevention (1/level), Aura, Divine Protection, Gift of Resistance, Gift of Shielding, Gift of Tolerance, Swift to Protect, Defensive Strike, Bonus Feat, Life Saver

2nd|Divine Grace, Bonus Feat, Helpful, Master of the Healing-ward

3rd|Bonus Feat, Status, Courage, Carry the Burden, Enhanced Defensive Strike, Hands of the Healer

4th|Bonus Feat, Gift of Time(+20' movement)

5th|Gift of Breath, Gift of Soul, Helping Hand

6th|-

7th|-

8th|-

9th|Bonus Feat(I to V), Gift of Life

10th|-

11th|Bonus Feat(I to VI)((Red because moved from 12th level)), Shield of the Soul

12th|-

13th|Matchless Loyalty, Mobile Defender

14th|Bonus Feat

15th|-

16th|-

17th|Bonus Feat, Gift of Foresight

18th|-

19th|Bonus Feat

20th|
[/table]


Table formatting suggestions (that turned into class tweak ideas and non-mechanic changing rewrites of ability descriptions) from Kane0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=63836)

Hmm, if you don't mind me reworking things a bit, It might end up a lot more streamlined if you take it back from the ground up:

A general rule can be posted in the thread as a note or spoiler, it isn't really a class ability.

Aura is good as is.

Bonus feats are good as is.

Your three gifts could easily be combined since they are all of the same level. Give a bonus to X (AC, Saves, Resistances) at a penalty to your own Y(AC, Saves, CON), with similar restrictions and improvements placed on all of them. This would save you space and would simplify the abilities.

Swift to protect could probably be simplified to be a bonus to Init, but thats up to you.

Defensive strike is fine as is.

Life saver is fine as is.

Divine Protection and Divine Grace could easily be combined.

Helpful could probably be changed to grant +4 instead of +2, or taking 10 on any aid another action. Either way (or a choice if you want)

Master of the Heaing Ward could be incorporated into Life Saver

Courage is fine as is.

Carry the burden is fine as is.

Enhanced Defensive strike is fine as is.

Hands of the Healer could be incorporated into Life Saver

Gifts of time, breath, soul and life are good as is.

Shield of the Soul is good as is.

Im a little iffy about the Mobile Defender ability since it is reliant on a feat that is not automatically granted. No matter how good the feat is for the class it isnt usually good practice to assume the character would have it and thus benefit from the ability.

Matchless loyalty and gift of foresight are good as is.


Just an outline suggestion, the changes are up to you of course. The more abilities you can streamline and reduce in the table to be explained in the ability description the better.

Ill be looking a bit more later on, but this is all i can do for now.


Also roughly threw together a new table for your abilities based on what I suggested. The only change in the level these abilities are granted is that Divine Grace is level 2 to match divine protection (all one ability now)

1 Aura, Gift (AC, Saves, Resistance) Swift to Protect, Defensive Strike (Damage), Bonus Feat, Life Saver (Treatment)
2 Divine Protection, Bonus Feat, Helpful, Life Saver (Multiple Patients)
3 Defensive Strike (Attack), Bonus Feat, Status, Courage, Carry the Burden (levitate), Emhanced Defensive Strike (Magic), Life Saver (Blind/Deaf, Ability Damage)
4 Bonus Feat, Life Saver (Poison, Disease), Gift (Time, Resistance: Two saves)
5 Carry the Burden (Fly), Gift (Breath, Soul), Helping Hand 1/day
6 Defensive Strike (1.5 damage), Gift (Time: Move), Life Saver (Ability/Level Drain)
7 Carry the Burden (2 allies), Enhanced Defensive Strike (alignment), Gift (Resistance: one save)
8 Divine Protection (15ft), Gift (Time: 20ft), Status 2/day
9 Bonus Feat, Gift (Life: Raise Dead, Resistance: Multiple Saves)
10 Carry the Burden (3 Allies), Defensive Strike (x2 damage), Gift (AC: Swift or Standard Action, Time: Full round)
11 Bonus Feat, Enhanced Defensive Strike(Adamantine), Life Saver (Level Drain time period), Shield of the Soul
12 Divine Protection(Sacred/Profane), Gift (Time: 30ft), Helping Hand 2/day
13 Gift (Life: Resurrection), Life Saver (Take 10), Matchless Loyalty, Mobile Defender
14 Carry the Burden (4 allies), Bonus Feat, Status At-Will
15 Enhanced Defensive Strike(2 alignments), Gift (AC: Immediate, Swift or Standard Action, Time: Swift, Standard, or Move Action)
16 Defensive Strike(x3 damage), Shield of the Soul (Area)
17 Bonus Feat, Carry the Burden (5 allies), Gift (Foresight, Life: True Resurrection)
18 Divine Protection (Insight), Gift (Time: 40ft)
19 Bonus Feat, Shield of the Soul (class level+10)
20 Gift (Time: Grant Move & Standard action, Resistance: Half Penalties)


Hope this helps

DracoDei
2012-11-27, 07:15 PM
I have made many updates to this since I last bumped it, so I am feeling free to bump it so I can add these notes.
<DracoSemiAway> Greetings Takeru. Scyld_Norning suggested I have you take a look at a 3.X D&D base class I have been working on.
<DracoSemiAway> I'm trying to decide if I should attempt some improvements to the formatting before I ask you.
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<Takeru> sure
* Takeru has lately been way more into Pathfinder, but still knows alot about 3.x and will happily look it over
<Axel> The protests against Mursi are so thick that the crowds are visible from an aerial view of Cairo.
<Axel> Egypt is goin' strong
<DracoSemiAway> Takeru: Important point is that most of the abilities have very short ranges, and swift action casting times to keep the class mobile enough to stay within range. The short ranges are because the class has to be a little vulnerable to be interesting. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/printthread.php?t=247637
<wyre> Giant in the Playground Forums - Semi-hiatus to avoid wearing new reviewers out, but ANYONE can post here if you want.
<DracoSemiAway> Err... also don't post in that thread without giving me warning so I can bump it first (weird rules for the forums).
<Takeru> I don't have an account anywau
<DracoSemiAway> Ok.
<Takeru> first off, I think you may want to swap to 1d10, but that's just me looking at this thing only having 1/2 BAB
<Magello> 1d2
<Takeru> 1d10 for the HD I mean
<wyre> Magello, (1d2) 1.
<wyre> Takeru, (1d10) 9.
<Takeru> ....
<Takeru> anyway
<The_Enemy> heading out
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<DracoSemiAway> No, I'm pretty sure on both the d12 and the 1/2 BAB.
<Magello> You has nine hps.
<wyre> DracoSemiAway, (d12) 2.
<Takeru> that's a LOT of class effects at level one
<DracoSemiAway> You will see the reasons for both later.
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<Takeru> I like the weapon limitations, but I'm not so sure about a class not having other simple weapons
<Takeru> even Wizards get all simple weapons
<DracoSemiAway> Yeah, I know. It is basically a caster with all the spells bundled into the class itself.
<DracoSemiAway> Not in 3.X they don't I don't think.
<Takeru> pretty sure they do. It's why most wizards carry crossbows
<Takeru> ah
<@Hyperion> wizards and sorcerers get a few of the simple weapon
<Takeru> okay they don't get all, but they get more than one
<Takeru> I'd say give them a few of the 'basic' simple weapons
<@Hyperion> club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff
<Takeru> any class that can't use a club and a dagger is a class that is going to suffer when it comes time for self-defense
<DracoSemiAway> No ranged weapons except nets and bolos.
<DracoSemiAway> And any time this class attacks during its turn it is screwing up.
<Takeru> so they've got no damage output?
<DracoSemiAway> Someone gets close to you, you take full defense, cast with a swift action on the defensive, and wait for one of the DPS guys to have a free moment to come help you.
<@Hyperion> so... a purely support class?
<DracoSemiAway> Their only damage output is AoOs.
<Takeru> hnmh. pure support.
<Takeru> not quite sure that'll work too well, especially if they're ever caught alone
<TGU_Laptop> it's not a class for everybody, but some people would like it
<DracoSemiAway> Yeah, they aren't so much the "wind beneath the parties wings" as they are "the SCRAM-Jet beneath the parties wings".
<Takeru> I can see it working, but I'd suggest giving them at least a 'last-ditch' ability to defend themselves if they're attacked alone. The other major "Support" class, the Bard, has a few "I can stab you if I must" talents
<DracoSemiAway> If they are ever caught alone they are probably in deep trouble. I have considered making a feat they can take to negate that that only activates when they are alone "I must survive to help others".
<TGU_Laptop> I would make that part of the class, really
<Takeru> if they're the only ones who can take it, it's more of a class feature than a feat
<DracoSemiAway> TGU: Yeah... but in either case since they have everything and the kitchen sink for defense I am worried about that turning them into a one-man party. I guess the "must be without allies" thing could make it work if written right.
<Takeru> hnmh...
<DracoSemiAway> They have a LOT of class specific feats.
<Takeru> think the bonus feats can be cleaned up a bit. Rank them by ones that need prequisits, like they do other bonus-feat-heavy classes like Ranger or whatnot
<TGU_Laptop> turn those into talent trees, then
<TGU_Laptop> or alternate class features
<@Hyperion> hmm
<DracoSemiAway> That, their skill points, weapon choice, and their Enhanced Defensive Strike stuff is the only build options they get so I need to keep the feats good and varied and etc.
<DracoSemiAway> TGU: Feats seem to be working for me...
<Takeru> limit the bonus feats to actual feats, and give them Grace-Gifts that have the things you were making new 'feats' for, unless you want them to also be spending their regular feats on those things
<@Hyperion> not sure why the class is alignment locked, but I can... kind of see it. although it currently allows CG and LE people. Which feels a bit against the flavor
<TGU_Laptop> (as well as perhaps following the good engineering saying: it's finished not when there's nothing left to add, but when's there's nothing left to take away ;) )
<Takeru> If you do want that, though, then yeah. Go with it.
<@Hyperion> feels a bit like a cleric archtype
<DracoSemiAway> I want them to have lots of options, so keeping them feats works for me.
<Takeru> the 18th and 12th level things should be swapped for divine protection
<DracoSemiAway> And yes, it is sorta supposed to be able to replace a cleric (I need to add in the Heal-Check accelerators and the ability to use curative clerical magic items, but that is just paperwork).
<Takeru> you should be able to change it into one specific type before you can change it into any
<Takeru> it looks a bit bloated as it is, so I'd suggest trimming some stuff down, but I've yet to find anything specific that needs trimming
<DracoSemiAway> I'm pretty sure that it really does need all those abilities.
<TGU_Laptop> or find ways to combine things into simpler elements
<Takeru> you can greatly simplify Gift of Shielding
<DracoSemiAway> It is an illusion that those are class features.
<Takeru> just have them able to cast the spell
<DracoSemiAway> They are actually a spell-list.
<Takeru> +1 AC and +1 Saves is neglible at best, and it greatly simplifies the whole paragraph of text
<DracoSemiAway> And yes, they need all of them, for the same reason that clerics originally had to know all their spells...
<TGU_Laptop> well, why don't you pull them out, make them actual spells, and have them know everything on their spell list like some classes do? (warmage for example)
<@Hyperion> I am still considering the flavour a LE guy of that class would be... Kind of funny.
<Takeru> if you're dedicated to making them non-spells, just give a list of Grace-Gifts they get to pick some of at X levels, and have a list. Making them each their own class thing is a bit cumbersome. But so far I'm liking it
<DracoSemiAway> I've considered it. Since they also have to be at-will this seemed the way to go, but I am really not sure.
<Magello> We should do up an evil game.
<TGU_Laptop> ("Hey! I haven't given you *permission* to die yet!")
<DracoSemiAway> No. No picking.
<Takeru> think you can just make Gift of Shielding "they can cast Shield Other at will. At 10th level they can cast it as a swift action."
<Magello> I enjoy villiany.
<Takeru> "at 15th an Immediate"
<Takeru> having it on one person at a time isn't a real limit, the real limit is that having it on multiple people means you're probably going to die
<DracoSemiAway> I COULD. Changes their action economy a bit though.
<Takeru> so most people will only slap it on one really important person and start chugging potions or however they heal themselves when that person starts taking a pounding
<DracoSemiAway> Let me go look at what you were talking about with Divine Protection.
<Takeru> the whole 'They get to cast Shield Other but it's way limited and weaker and more complicated'
<Takeru> Shield Other is a pretty simple effect to keep track of, and can be greatly simplified by just letting them cast it
<Takeru> then at 10th it becomes a Swift, then at 15th an Immediate
<Takeru> the real limit on Shield Other's power is that you'll die if you overuse it
<DracoSemiAway> And now you see part of the reason for the d12s.
<Takeru> makes sense now, yeah
<DracoSemiAway> And I may have phrased Divine Protection unclearly, but it actually works exactly as you implied it should. They get more options for the bonus type the higher level they are.
<Takeru> I think you can just trim "Swift to Protect" or just make it a passive initiative bonus
<DracoSemiAway> Between Divine Protection and Gift of Shielding... yeah.
<Takeru> what else would this class be doing besides what you listed?
<DracoSemiAway> Well, it was mostly to keep them from actually trying to attack normally. Including using "GET OFF OF THEM!!!" which is a feat for clearing mooks trying to swarm your allies off.
<Takeru> I think you'd be better off just trimming it. One less thing to track and it doesn't really lose much, and penalizing your players when they want to do something creative isn't too good of an idea.
<Takeru> the cases in which they'd actually attack are slim
<Takeru> and not really worth limiting
<DracoSemiAway> Many of the limits, including the ones on Swift to Protect are there because I am nervous about some sort of multiclass that turns this back into a CoDzilla.
<Takeru> this doesn't strike me as a 'pacifist' class so much as a 'sacrificial' class, and if someone wants to charge in front to take blows? They should be allowed too
<Takeru> it's 3.5
<@Hyperion> didn't 3.5 have the limit on... monks, that if you multiclass stuff happens?
<Takeru> the most well-balanced classes will be turned into horrible gish monstrosities with the proper multiclassing and gestalt
<DracoSemiAway> You can charge to the front and take blows... it is encouraged... you just can't attack the first round.
<Takeru> just make it so you can't multiclass away from this if that's what you're worried about
<Takeru> it won't stop people making them starting as one thing and then multiclassing into this, but that takes a lot of time and dedication to breaking the rules
<Takeru> and most people won't do it in anything but theory
<DracoSemiAway> Maybe.
<Takeru> attacking someone gets their attention, so it's a good way to distract enemies from your buddies
<DracoSemiAway> I would be more prone to removing the restrictions than removing the ability.
<Takeru> I'd say just trim "Swift to Protect" entirely
<Takeru> or make it a flat Init bonus
<TGU_Laptop> make the 19th and 20th level things really, really nice, and they'll be hesitent to multiclass away
<Scyld_Norning> basic rule: railroading is evil. secondary rule: the road to hell is paved with good intentions, so don't railroad even to "make things right"
<DracoSemiAway> Well, one of the 20th level things is the ability to hand your full-round action to an ally, which is pretty boss.
<Scyld_Norning> people will _always_ find a way to break or misuse classes, so trying to build them to prevent that is the wrong way to handle it, as it'll only harm the good players, not the evils ones trying to break things
<Takeru> hnmh...
<Scyld_Norning> build it to be fun when used right, rather than to prevent being used wrong
<Takeru> Defensive Strike looks way too complicated
<DracoSemiAway> Thinking it should apply to all AoOs?
<Scyld_Norning> also, elegance and simplicity are fun
<Takeru> perhaps just make it adding Cha Modifier + scaling bonus to damage done on AoOs?
<Takeru> the limits on which AoOs is a bit cumbersome and would be annoying to track in-game
<DracoSemiAway> I have a table for it and Enhanced Defensive Strike (its supernatural matching part. Would be one ability if they weren't different types).
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<DracoSemiAway> Well, it has to keep the to-hit bonuses.
<Takeru> how about just making it "When making Attacks of Opportunity not on his turn, the Grace-Gift treats his Class Level as his BAB and adds (Cha Modifier+small scaling bonus) to damage"
<Takeru> damage gets absurd enough as it is in 3.5, don't need to go about doubling or tripling it
<Axel> Joseph Murray has passed away.
<DracoSemiAway> The idea is that they don't need heavy investment in a weapon. Which is one of the objections to the Fighter.
<Takeru> that way you're sort of like a monk (in using class level for BAB in one specific thing) and have a damage booster that doesn't get out of control
<Takeru> at level 20 he'd be doing +60 damage on AoOs
<Axel> Murray was the Massachusetts surgeon who won the Nobel Prize for performing the first successful kidney transplant.
<Takeru> and at level 10 it'd be +20 damage
<DracoSemiAway> +60 <-Exactly the way it should be.
<Takeru> ...
<Takeru> have someone else use greater trip
<Takeru> +60 damage
<Takeru> profit
<Axel> Dude made life possible for millions who would have died
<DracoSemiAway> What is Greater Trip?
<Takeru> Greater Trip makes the target provoke AoOs when it falls
<Takeru> add that with a grace-gift, bam. Blenderized all the targets.
<Takeru> damage bonuses should never scale as high as +60 inherently
<DracoSemiAway> Takeru: Right... another reason to keep the limitations on what AoOs Defensive Strike works for.
<Takeru> it should be something like Charisma or Constitution Modifer + a scaling bonus
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<Takeru> something like Modifier + 1 at level one, Modifier +2 at level 4, Modifier +3 at level 8, etc.
<Takeru> or +2, +4, +6
<Takeru> etc/
<DracoSemiAway> For DAMAGE?
<Takeru> yes, for damage
<Takeru> when you throw magic weapons and attribute-enhancers into the mix you can get some pretty high damage numbers innately. Adding +60 to it is a bit absurd
<Takeru> or at the very least, don't have it double or triple
<DracoSemiAway> No. Class level as a minimum. That is what the paladin gets, and this is about as limited as the per-day and alignment limit for the paladin (or rather Smite Evil is a pretty weak ability due to the low per-day limit).
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<Takeru> the Paladin only gets it against specific enemies
<Takeru> and a limited number of times a day
<Takeru> and they are built to be a RAWR-KILL class
<DracoSemiAway> And they only get it in specific circumstances.
<Takeru> AoO is much broader (and much more cumbersome) than "Against Evil"
<DracoSemiAway> And this is built to be a roadblock that actually makes AoOs matter.
<DracoSemiAway> And they are sorta M.A.D.
<DracoSemiAway> Err...
<DracoSemiAway> Never mind that last.
<DracoSemiAway> Meleeists tend to be MAD anyway.
<DracoSemiAway> There aren't nearly as many ways to pump AoOs as attacks during your turn.
<Takeru> it's too complicated and too powerful. Trim it down and make them treat their class level as to-hit and, at the most, gain a class level bonus to damage
<DracoSemiAway> Hmmm... maybe.
<DracoSemiAway> On the "too powerful".
<Takeru> any class ability that punishes a player for trying to whack a monster isn't a good ability to have
<Takeru> and a +60 damage on an exploitable mechanic certainly is too powerful if they get to AoO when a monster attacks one of their allies
<DracoSemiAway> Which they don't per se.
<Takeru> Life Saver looks good
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<DracoSemiAway> Yeah... let's revisit Defensive Strike later...
<Takeru> Divine Grace is fine
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<Takeru> I don't think you can normally take 10 on aid another
<Takeru> so just simplifying that to 'The Grace-Gift may take 10 on Aid Another' works
<DracoSemiAway> Ok.
<@Hyperion> isn't... aid annother dc 10?
<DracoSemiAway> Usually, yes.
<Takeru> yeah
<Takeru> but it's very limited and takes your turn
<Takeru> it's a guaranteed success at higher levels anyway
<TGU_Laptop> could just say "always succeed on aid another"
<Takeru> that, yeah
<Takeru> could do that
<Takeru> I think your 10th level version of it is complicated
<Takeru> why does only one thing specify a higher DC?
<Takeru> and if you're taking 10, at level 6 you're always passing it anyway
<Takeru> so why not just make it a flat upgrade?
<DracoSemiAway> Was probably intending to leave room for ability score or circumstance modifiers.
<Takeru> erm
<Takeru> and never make anything be allowed by an unlimited number of allies
<Takeru> especially with Aid Another
<DracoSemiAway> Only one OPPONENT though.
<Takeru> hire twenty level 1 archers to follow you around from a distance, walk up to a monster, use Aid Another, pincushion
<DracoSemiAway> As it should be.
<Takeru> ...
<Takeru> have it limited to your Cha modifier
<Takeru> any mechanic that encourages you to hire twenty level 1 characters to follow you around is asking for exploitation
<Takeru> most adventuring parties will fall well within the typical Charisma Modifier at level 10
<DracoSemiAway> Hmmm... point.
<Takeru> you've got multiple levels of it saying the combat bonus increases to +4
<TGU_Laptop> (high level with the Leadership feat and you'll have far more than 20 level 1 archers for free :P )
<Takeru> and I think the bonus to skill checks is...er...frankly?
<Takeru> pointless
<TGU_Laptop> (not-to-high level)
<Takeru> the whole 'sliding scale thing' won't really come into play
<Takeru> the cases where people Aid Another with Skill Checks are very few and far between, and adding a complicated scaling mechanic just makes it harder
<Takeru> better to make it a flat upgrade in what their Aid Another provides
<Takeru> I like the new uses, those should stay
<Takeru> but the whole "Sliding Scale of Success" is a new and really unneeded mechanic that pads the class text out and makes it confusing
<DracoSemiAway> Someone said that Aid Another was pretty useless and suggested scaling the bonuses. I may have needlessly complicated it with the scaling DCs.
<Takeru> the bonuses scaling is a good idea as you level, but not depending on what you roll. Makes it too complex. Just make it so they gain +s to what their Aid Another does when they use it and that'll be fine
<Takeru> the mechanic is nearly never used anyway, so the shorter the text the better
<Takeru> you can probably just cut out Master of the Healing Ward for the same reason
<DracoSemiAway> Ooo... "Sliding Scale of Success" is actually critical to one of the abilities I need to add... although that is rolled outside of combat usually, and accelerates the time to do something rather than increasing a bonus.
<DracoSemiAway> Master of the Healing Ward is critical.
<Takeru> how?
<Takeru> you're never going to be treating that many people for disease as a Player Character
<DracoSemiAway> Because that is how they don't take forever and a day to patch the party up from supernatural ills.
<DracoSemiAway> And yes, you will.
<DracoSemiAway> You will see.
<Takeru> the real supernatural ills aren't diseases, they're curses and poisons
<DracoSemiAway> "Hands of the Healer" ability lets you treat various things as diseases.
<Scyld_Norning> even in the Curse of the Crimson Throne adventure-path we, as the PCs didn't deal with curing that many people directly. that was mostly offscreened as it rightfully should be, and was dealt with mainly by NPCs even if we, the PCs, helped out a little
<Takeru> then why need the Healing-ward?
<DracoSemiAway> Because normally you can only treat ONE character at a time for disease.
<Scyld_Norning> where does it say that?
<Takeru> and when has that ever been a limitation?
<DracoSemiAway> Scyld_Norning: So you never had to use "Remove Blindness/Deafness" or deal with negative levels?
<Magello> Those aren't diseases...
<Takeru> you can't remove negative levels with the Heal skill
<Takeru> and Blindness/Deafness isn't cured by Heal either
<Scyld_Norning> right...
<DracoSemiAway> Takeru: It is NOW.
<Takeru> then...why do you need the Healing-Ward?
<DracoSemiAway> That is what "Hands of the Healer" does... among other things.
<DracoSemiAway> Because one controls the NUMBER of people you can treat, and the other controls WHAT you can treat them for.
<Takeru> just fold the first into the second. Done.
<Takeru> "you may use this ability on X people"
<Scyld_Norning> that sounds more like "tacking on another cool thing to this super-class instead of making an appropriate other class for it"
<DracoSemiAway> Err... for thematic reasons, no.
<Takeru> it gets rid of a useless class ability that pads the list out and doesn't really make sense to exist
<DracoSemiAway> Scyld_Norning: Is supposed to slot in for a cleric. Thus has to be able to patch the party up. Still slightly worse at it than a cleric because a cleric requires 6 second per ailment, rather than hours for multiple ailments.
<Takeru> and I really think you should drop Courage, too. Just too many class features, and being immune to fear doesn't fit thematically with the rest of the class. Or perhaps change it to an Aura of Courage that gives other people a +2 bonus to fear saves.
<Takeru> oh, also?
<Takeru> treating a disease takes 10 minutes
<Takeru> so you can treat functionally limitless amount of people, each using your heal save
<Takeru> they get to pick when in the day they make their saving throw
<Scyld_Norning> Draco: even so, most class-variants pick a specific sort of focus and deal with that alone, leaving other "cool ideas" to other class variants.
<Takeru> a base Heal check can already tend to disease amongst an entire party
<Scyld_Norning> so is this a "mundane mass-healing cleric-replacement" or is it a "sacrificiall protect others in combat cleric-replacement" class?
<Takeru> Carry The Burden... uh.... it's a neat idea but I don't see it really doing much. It can probably be trimmed entirely. It seems to be just stuck in there amidst the rest of the "protect my allies" abilities.
<DracoSemiAway> Both. Because both buff spells and curative spells are part of clerics.
<Scyld_Norning> except for how you're doing this they get "everything all the time", while normal clerics have to choose what to take at any one time
<Scyld_Norning> so it's _not_ comparable
<DracoSemiAway> Not all the time.
<Takeru> enhanced defensive strike was pretty much lifted whole-sale from the Monk. It looks fine how it is, but could stand to be simplified a touch.
<DracoSemiAway> Yes, it was lifted from the monk.
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<Takeru> I think it probably should be trimmed or just limited to Alignment + Magic
<Takeru> doesn't make sense for your sword to shatter through solid stone when the enemy makes a mistake, but not when you're pushing the offensive
<Takeru> maybe just make it so their weapon strikes can be made magic + suitable alignment and leave it at that, since they're more holyish
<Takeru> the innate damage bonus they get on AoOs already gets through most hardness
<DracoSemiAway> General rule: If you want me to "simplify" what something DOES I need an explaination of why beyond "it is hard to understand" (sometimes you have been providing this). If you want me to "simplify" how something is SAID, I need something pretty specific, because I am bad at it.
<Takeru> well, for example, Enhanced Defense was pretty much a monk ability and it clashes in a Cleric Replacement. So perhaps go the Paladin route and just make them able to make their weapons Aligned and count as Magic
<DracoSemiAway> It might help to mention that I am using ToB as my reference for roughly what the AoOs should be doing... and the idea that you should be fine with a +1 weapon at 20th level.
<DracoSemiAway> Paladin weapons are neither Aligned nor Magical.
<Takeru> ToB is a bit skewed for a reference, but arright
<Takeru> instead of giving them the entire Monk Ability wholesale in only a limited amount of time, just give them their own thing and make them able to make their weapons magic or aligned
<Takeru> that way they have some mild offense capabilites
<DracoSemiAway> http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/heal.htm <-Disease treatment targets ONE character and takes 8 hours of healers work out of 24 hours of patient's rest.
<wyre> Heal :: d20srd.org
<Takeru> what? no it doesn't
<Takeru> "Treating a disease or tending a creature wounded by a spike growth or spike stones spell takes 10 minutes of work."
<DracoSemiAway> Treat Disease To treat a disease means to tend a single diseased character. Every time he or she makes a saving throw against disease effects, you make a Heal check. The diseased character uses your check result or his or her saving throw, whichever is higher.
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<Takeru> check underneath Action
<Takeru> it takes 10 minutes
<Takeru> so you can throw Healing-Ward right out the window because it doesn't do anything
<DracoSemiAway> O.O
<DracoSemiAway> I coulda...
<DracoSemiAway> Ok, so that is long-term care and...
<DracoSemiAway> Ok.
<DracoSemiAway> Right.
<DracoSemiAway> Well, that makes things a lot easier.
<Takeru> yup
<Takeru> so you can just get rid of Healing-Ward and focus on Hands of the Healer
<Takeru> I'd say allow them to treat ability score damage at something like healing 1d4 score per 10 minutes of work
<wyre> Takeru, (1d4) 2.
<Takeru> treat Blindness/Deafness if it's been inflicted, not naturally gained
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<DracoSemiAway> I have a plan for ability score damage.
<DracoSemiAway> And I think I covered Blindness/Deafness by copying over bits of text from *Remove Blindness/Deafness*.
<Takeru> heck, even simpler
<Takeru> just let them cast Remove Blindness/Deafness and Lesser Restoration as Spell-Like Abilities that take 10 minutes to cast
<Takeru> same effect, incredibly simple, done
<DracoSemiAway> I like to keep the checks in there.
<Takeru> if the checks were part of the spell, they're still in the spell
<Takeru> though, I think level 3 is a bit early
<DracoSemiAway> They get the ability to treat conditions at about the same levels that clerics do.
<Takeru> not too bad, but perhaps have the blindness/deafness be at level 5 or 6
<@Hyperion> 5
<Takeru> since remove is a level 3 spell so they get it at level 5, not level 3
<Takeru> but that's a minor quibble of just 'the rules should be consistent', not a major flaw
<DracoSemiAway> Connection slow, having to load SRD pages...
<Takeru> the whole thing is way simplified just by letting them have the spells as Spell-Like Abilities that take X amount of long time to cast. saves you at least four or five paragraphs of explanation, which is always a good thing.
<Takeru> like, you did it with Status
<Takeru> lets them cast the Status spell
<Takeru> so you can do the same with Hands of the Healer and greatly simplify matters
<DracoSemiAway> Ok, I think I see why I did the Remove Blindness/Deafness at level 3... and it no longer applies.
<DracoSemiAway> I have scheduling complexities that meant I took a sleeping pill a bit ago.
<DracoSemiAway> So I am fading, and even less able to talk straight.
<DracoSemiAway> This is REALLY REALLY helpful though, so let's just move it along.
<Takeru> Gift of Time seems fine
<DracoSemiAway> Interesting you like that, but not "Carry the Burden".<Takeru> This could probably be trimmed too, but it makes a bit more sense to fit in with it
<Takeru> Carry the Burden just seems to clash with the rest of the abilities, honestly, and it doesn't accomplish anything vital to the class
<Takeru> Gift of Breath seems a bit unneccesarily math-y, but fine. I'd suggest fine-tuning it a bit and seeing if there's any way you can trim down the descriptive text.
<Takeru> you have an error in Gift of Soul. It says it counts as being able to cast Water Breathing, but I'm pretty sure that's meant to be in Gift of Breath
<Takeru> Gift of Soul seems like it could potentially be gamey in how costs are spread around, but I hate XP costs on things anyway, so it seems fine for 3.5
* DracoSemiAway nods.
<Takeru> I think you can greatly simplify a lot of these by just changing the simpler ones to a list of "Grace-Gifts" that you can cast as spell-like abilities at X level
<DracoSemiAway> I had considered it...
<Takeru> like Helping Hand, Status, Shield Other, Endure Elements, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Lesser Restoration, Restoration, etc.
<DracoSemiAway> I had reasons to think it wouldn't work, but I can try it and see.
<Takeru> same effects, just removes some Class Bloat
<DracoSemiAway> Yeah, I know but I thought that it would actually be harder to read because you would have nearly 20 divisions to it.
<DracoSemiAway> I could be wrong.
<Takeru> it's always better to have one complicated list than to have a lot of complicated lists
<DracoSemiAway> O.o
<Takeru> hnmh. how to put this.
<DracoSemiAway> By that logic I shouldn't try to consolidate everything to the main table like it is now.
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<Takeru> you know how some classes just have this big list of Bonus Feats they can take at certain levels?
<Takeru> it's a lot better putting those all together then stuffing multiple lists around the class features
<Takeru> consolodation actually simplifies things and keeps the whole page from being bloated
<Takeru> like compare the size of other class pages to the size of the grace-giver, and you'll see a considerable difference in text and effects. You can greatly benefit from some consolodation
<DracoSemiAway> That doesn't sound like consolidation at all.
<DracoSemiAway> That is my confusion.
<Takeru> you've taken a lot of similar-functioning Spell-Like-Abilities and turned them into their own class feature
<Takeru> when you can just lump them all together under "Grace-Gifts" that you get at certain levels
<DracoSemiAway> Ok, now I get what you are saying.
<DracoSemiAway> Ok.
<Takeru> Gift of Life really limits the party's ability to come back from a TPK
<Takeru> it should either work just like the spell, should have permanent Con Damage but not require any material components, or should have healable Con Damage and require the material components
<Takeru> they'd never be able to bring back a whole party from the dead, and by blowing gold on it, they might as well just go get a cleric
<Takeru> so either just let them have full access to the spell, or make it 'free' for them at the price of stat damage
<DracoSemiAway> An idea worth considering when I am more awake~
<DracoSemiAway> !
<Takeru> Mobile Defender: a class should never have a Class Feature that requires a Prequisite cost that they could easily not meet
<Takeru> the class should give them fighter, or just scrap that one
<Takeru> er
<Takeru> "Blocker"
<DracoSemiAway> Noted.
<Takeru> either the class should grant them the feat innately, or they shouldn't have that ability. No other class has ever given a class feature that can be potentially unusable by the class depending on feat selection
<DracoSemiAway> I've considered it both ways actually.
<Takeru> Matchless Loyalty is fine, though I really don't want to know what the spell "Mind Rape" is
<Takeru> Gift of Foresight is another one of those 'better to be condensed into a list of spell-like abilities you get than to be its own class feature' things, but is fine
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<Takeru> I don't really have the time to go into all the individual feats, especially since those are much harder to make and balance
<DracoSemiAway> Don't know what it is either precisely. BoVD I think. Let's you re-write the target's personality.
<The_Enemy> Draco?
<Takeru> but here's my End of the Day Analysis of the class:
<DracoSemiAway> The_Enemy: Yes?
<The_Enemy> Aha
<DracoSemiAway> Regarding the Feats: That is fine.
<Takeru> You've got the right Saves, BAB, and HD. You're suffering from Class Bloat due to all the individual Spell-Like Abilities that you've turned into seperate Class Features, so just condense those into a single psuedo-spell-list of "Grace Gifts" that they get at specific levels.
<Takeru> Trim stuff like Carry the Burden and Master of the Healing-Ward, and anything else that is more of a Neat Idea than a vital part of the class

Amechra
2012-11-27, 09:55 PM
My eyes rebel against the juxtaposition of red and black; I really think that you should just have a list of what abilities are allowed in a spoiler, and then color every piece of text in black.

It is, quite frankly, distracting.

Also, Warlocks can be progressed by classes that advance Arcane Spellcasting; they just can't get into most of those classes in the first place due to not having actual spellcasting.

So you could just make this a Divine Invoker, and add a note that let's them qualify for spell-level requirements with their spell-like abilities.

DracoDei
2012-12-05, 05:03 PM
My eyes rebel against the juxtaposition of red and black; I really think that you should just have a list of what abilities are allowed in a spoiler, and then color every piece of text in black.

It is, quite frankly, distracting.
Sorry for the delay.
I can do that, but it may be a slow process.

lso, Warlocks can be progressed by classes that advance Arcane Spellcasting; they just can't get into most of those classes in the first place due to not having actual spellcasting.

So you could just make this a Divine Invoker, and add a note that let's them qualify for spell-level requirements with their spell-like abilities.
That could work I guess. That is mostly a matter of changing the wording so instead of spells they are spell-like abilities entirely?

Amechra
2012-12-05, 07:55 PM
Pretty much.

DracoDei
2013-01-09, 12:25 AM
I keep trying to edit in two more feats and remove all the RED formatting. It keeps telling me I don't have permission to edit the document or something. Deleted "Martyr's Power" from this version in case it as a problem with character count in disguise.

New Feats
Standard Format Index of New Feats
Anchoring Defense
---Extradimensional Defense
Armored Defender
Burden Bearer
Chaotic Defense
???Defensive Trip???
Diving Evasion
Doubled Gifts
---Tripled Gifts
------Bountiful Gifts
---------Endless Gifts
Energy Defense
Enhanced Material Defense
---Strike Anything Defensively
Evil Defense
Good Defense
Grace-Gift's Dodge
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
---Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser
------Grace-Gift's Toughness
---------Grace-Gift's Toughness, Improved
GET OFF OF THEM!!!
Heavy Breather
Divine Protection, Improved
---Divine Protection, Greater
Improved Gift of Resistance
---Improved Divine Grace
Improved Gift of Tolerance
Improved Healing Acceleration((Need to roll this into the main class))
Improved Shield of the Soul
---Greater Shield of the Soul
Improved Swift to Protect
Improved Mobile Defender
Lawful Defense
Mage-Slayer, Lesser
Plague-Bane
---Improved Plague-Bane
??Protecting Paladin??
??Protector's Reward??
Sacrificial Defense
Shielded Defender
Stoic Protector
Touch of the Grace-Gift
---Improved Touch of the Grace-Gift
---Disaster's Bane
Martyr's Power

The Feats Themselves

Anchoring Defense [Grace-Gift]

You can seriously impede even the most elusive of foes.
Prerequisites: Enhanced Defensive Strike with Ghost Touch.
Benefits: When you hit an incorporeal creature with a defensive strike, it must make a will save with a DC of 10+1/2 grace-gift level+charisma modifier. If it fails it loses the incorporeal quality for 1d3 rounds. If it is currently at least partially within a solid object it is shunted out to the nearest open space that can fully contain it, taking 1d6 damage per 5 feet so traveled.
Special: A character with at least 7 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. You may take this feat more than once, each time after the first, the DC of the save increases by 3.

Extradimensional Defense [Grace-Gift]
Even teleportation can not protect aggressors.
Prerequisites: Anchoring Defense, Grace-Gift Level 11, Enhanced Defensive Strike with Ghost Touch.
Benefits: An opponent who uses a [teleportation] spell or effect to arrive withing your threatened area provokes an attack of opportunity from you, this attack of opportunity gains the benefits of Enhanced Defensive Strike. If they are arriving within there own reach plus 5' of an ally this attack of opportunity counts fully as a Defensive Strike.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Armored Defender [Grace-Gift]
You can work around the problems of wearing a bit more protection.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift Level 11, Proficiency with Medium Armor
Benefits: You do not suffer an arcane spell failure chance for grace-gift spells or spell-like abilities for medium armor. You may tumble in medium armor, but if you do so, the armor check penalty from the armor to the tumble roll is doubled.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Burden Bearer [Grace-Gift]
"He's not heavy, he's my comrade."
Prerequisites: Carry the Burden class feature.
Benefits: Halve the amount of all load increases caused by your use of your Carry the Burden class ability.
Normal: Your load increases by the weight of the character(s) benefiting from your Carry the Burden ability plus the sum of their loads.
Special: This feat may be taken up to three times, its effects stack. The progression is 1/2, 1/4, 1/8. A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Chaotic Defense [Grace-Gift]
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 13, Enhanced Defensive Strike [Chaos].
Benefits: When you hit an non-chaotic creature with a defensive strike it is deafened for 1d4 rounds. If it has more hitdice than your Grace-Gift caster level it is allowed a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 10+1/2 grace-gift level+charisma modifier to negate the deafness. Furthermore, if you are on your home plane, and the creature you strike is a nonchaotic extraplanar creature it must make a will save against the same DC (regardless of hit-dice) or be instantly banished back to its home plane. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. You may take this feat more than once, each time after the first, the DC of the saves increases by 3.


???Defensive Trip??? [Grace-Gift]
"Hold It!"
Prerequisites: Defensive Strike class feature granting a to-hit bonus, Grace-Gift level 3
Benefits: If you are unarmed, or if you can make trip attacks with your weapon, you may substitute trip attempts for attacks of opportunity provoked by movement. You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent in this way while you are unarmed. You also gain a +4 bonus on your Strength check to trip your opponent in this way and when using bolas to trip. These benefits do not stack with the benefits of the Improved Trip feat and you do not get a free attack on an opponent you successfully trip in this way, even if you also have the Improved Trip feat.
Normal: You can't make trip attempts as attacks of opportunity and trip attempts provoke attacks of opportunity.
Special: A character with at least 3(2?) levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Diving Evasion [Fighter] [Grace-Gift]
Prerequisites: Tumble 1 rank, Dexterity 13, must be capable of being both standing and prone (not at the same time of course).
Benefits: When this feat is active, there is a direction that you could take a 5' step in without squeezing (regardless of other factors that might effect your ability to take 5' steps), and you are standing, you gain a +2 dodge bonus to your AC and a +2 bonus to reflex saves, however, any reflex save you make by less than 5 or any attack that misses you by less than 5 points causes you to become prone, and moves you 5 feet in a random direction that you could fit without squeezing. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

You may activate or deactivate this feat at any time (except during the process of an attack on you or you making reflex save). During your turn this is a free action, at any other time it is an immediate action.
Normal: You can't dive out of the way of attacks.
Special: A Fighter or Grace-Gift may take this feat as one of their class bonus feats.

Doubled Gifts [Grace-Gift]
You can grant your gifts somewhat more easily.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 9
Benefits: Once per round, up to 3/day, you may exchange a standard action for a swift action, however this action can ONLY be used to cast a grace-gift SLA. In no case may you use a given SLA more than once per round by virtue of this feat.


Tripled Gifts [Grace-Gift]
You can grant your gifts very easily.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 11
Benefits: Once per round, up to 3 times per day, you may exchange a move action for a swift action, however this action can ONLY be used to cast a grace-gift SLA. In no case may you use a given SLA more than once per round by virtue of this feat(even in combination with Doubled Gifts).

Also, you may use Doubled Gifts 6/day instead of 3/day, but still only once per round.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Bountiful Gifts [Grace-Gift]
Gifts flow from you like beer from a keg at a dwarven celebration.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 13
Benefits: You may use Doubled Gifts a number of times per day equal to 3+half your grace-gift level. You may use Tripled Gifts a number of times per day equal to 1+one-third your grace-gift level. Neither may be used more than once per round each.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Endless Gifts [Grace-Gift]
Gifts flow from you like water over a waterfall.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 15
Benefits: You have no daily limit on the number of times you may use doubled gifts or tripled gifts.
Special: A character with at least 15 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Energy Defense [Grace-Gift]
The energy of your protection manifests a bit more obviously than most grace-gifts.
Prerequisites: Enhanced Defensive Strike with an alignment type.
Benefits: Each time you make a defensive strike, you may change the bonus damage granted by your defensive strike class feature to one of the following that your defensive strikes are aligned to by your enhanced defensive strike class feature. Pick one at the time you take this feat. This can't be changed but you can take this feat again to add another option.

Acid, halve amount of bonus damage when using this option(Evil aligned strike)
Cold(Lawful aligned strike)
Fire(Evil aligned strike)
Lightning(Good aligned strike)
Non-lethal, this applies to all damage dealt by the strike, not just the bonus damage(Good aligned strike)
Sonic, halve amount of bonus damage when using this option(Chaotic aligned strike)

More importantly, you gain also gain resistance to the damage type equal to twice your grace-gift level(or four times your grace-gift level in DR/lethal damage if you gain the ability to deal subdual damage via this feat, but which does NOT apply against things such as hunger, thirst, cold and hot environments, etc). You may use a swift, move, or standard action to transfer this resistance or damage reduction to one ally within a number of feet equal to 10+Your Grace-Gift level, rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5. This transfer lasts for one round.
Normal: Your bonus damage from defensive strike is the same type as when you are not making a defensive strike.
Special: A character with at least 7 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. You may take this feat more than once, each time select a different damage type that you qualify for your bonus damage.

Enhanced Material Defense [Grace-Gift]
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 3, Enhanced Defensive Strike class feature.
Benefit: Select one(two?) material which a two-handed weapon for a medium sized may be made of for an additional cost of no more than 2,000 gp. When making defensive strikes your weapon counts as being made of that SPECIFIC material for by-passing damage reduction, regeneration, and other such defenses, or for special purposes involving a specific material (for instance if you have some sort of Vampire Hunter PrC that lets you stake vampires during AoOs on a sufficiently good roll, you might wish to select "wood" so that you can stake with metal swords and other piercing weapons of appropriate length). This is IN ADDITION to any other material(s) it is made of or counts as being made of. In no case does this allow your weapon to acquire a trait that could be acquired via enhanced defensive strike, such as flame-touched iron weapons counting as [Good]. In any case other common (and valid) choices include cold iron, alchemical silver(noting there is no penalty to damage with this option), Byeshk, or Targath.
Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. This feat may be taken more than once. Each time you select a new (pair of) material(s).


Strike Anything Defensively [Grace-Gift]
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 15, Enhanced Defensive Strike(Adamantine and two special features) class feature, Enhanced Material Defense emulating at least two different materials ((Give rebates on any excess instances?))
Benefit: Your defensive strikes ignore all damage reduction.
Special: A character with at least 15 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Evil Defense [Grace-Gift]
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 13, Enhanced Defensive Strike [Good].
Benefits: When you hit an non-evil creature with a defensive strike it is dazed for 1 round. If it has more hitdice than your Grace-Gift caster level it is allowed a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 10+1/2 grace-gift level+charisma modifier to negate the deafness. Furthermore, if you are on your home plane, and the creature you strike is a nonevil extraplanar creature it must make a will save against the same DC (regardless of hit-dice) or be instantly banished back to its home plane. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. You may take this feat more than once, each time after the first, the DC of the saves increases by 3.

Good Defense [Grace-Gift]
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 13, Enhanced Defensive Strike [Good].
Benefits: When you hit an non-good creature with a defensive strike it is deafened for 1d4 rounds. If it has more hitdice than your Grace-Gift caster level it is allowed a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 10+1/2 grace-gift level+charisma modifier to negate the deafness. Furthermore, if you are on your home plane, and the creature you strike is a nongood extraplanar creature it must make a will save against the same DC (regardless of hit-dice) or be instantly banished back to its home plane. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. You may take this feat more than once, each time after the first, the DC of the saves increases by 3.

Grace-Gift's Dodge [Grace-Gift]
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 17, Dodge, Tumble 22 ranks, Divine Protection class feature granting you at least a +10 bonus to armor class(when you aren't giving it away).
Benefit: Once per round, when struck by an attack from an opponent you have designated as the object of your dodge, you may automatically avoid all damage from the attack.
Special: A character with at least 17 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least [Grace-Gift]
Your body is a shield for those who need it, and a shield that can not take a few nicks is utterly worthless.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 11, Improved Toughness
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +2/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser [Grace-Gift]
Your body is a shield for those who need it, and shields need to be strong.
Prerequisites:
Grace-gift level 13
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +3/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Grace-Gift's Toughness[Grace-Gift]
Some shields are better-made than others.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 15
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +4/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 15 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Grace-Gift's Toughness, Improved [Grace-Gift]
Pain is only the sign that someone is making a feeble attempt to remove you from between them and those you protect.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 17
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser
Grace-Gift's Toughness
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +6/level(sic). This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 17 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.



GET OFF OF THEM! [Grace-Gift]
Attempting to overwhelm your teammates with numbers is... unwise.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 3, Defensive Strike class feature granting to-hit bonus.
Benefit: At its most basic level you may use a full-round action to make a single melee attack on each enemy that is within your threatened area that has at least one ally (NOT COUNTING YOURSELF) within its threatened area and has made a melee attack against at least one of your allies (AGAIN, NOT COUNTING YOURSELF) since your last turn (or the start of combat if it is your first turn). These attacks are made at your full BAB and gain the to-hit bonus from Defensive Strike and half of the damage bonus of Defensive Strike. If you have the Enhanced Defensive Strike ability these attacks also have all the benefits of that ability to which your class levels and feats entitle you.

When you use the GET OFF OF THEM!!! feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

If your grace-gift level is at least 6 when using this ability you may instead make these attacks as a standard action.

If your grace-gift level is at least 11 and you are actually using a full round action to use this ability, then you make two such attacks on each such enemy.

If your grace-gift level is at least 16 then you may make two such attacks on each such enemy as a standard action.

Remember, you can not use this feat on your first turn in any combat in which you use Swift to Protect.

Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Heavy Breather [Grace-gift]
With practice, breathing for two becomes much easier.
Prerequisites: Gift of Breath class feature.
Benefits: Halve Constitution penalties for each character you are breathing for via "Gift of Breath", minimum 1 in the case of each such character.
Normal: You take penalties to constitution when breathing for other characters as per the appropriate chart.
Special: A character with at least 5 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. This feat may be taken up to three times, its effects stack. The progression is 1/2, 1/4, 1/8. The minimum constitution penalty for each creature you are breathing for remains unchanged.

Divine Protection, Improved [Grace-gift]
Your protection from threats as simple as a blade is strong.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 1
Benefits: When you use your Divine Protection class feature to grant at least 1 point of armor class bonus to a SINGLE ally the granted bonus is then increased by 2. When using the multitargetting version of Divine Protection, the targets gain (bonus sacrificed -1) instead of (bonus sacrificed -2) armor class.
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Divine Protection, Greater [Grace-gift]
Your protection from threats as simple as a blade is strong.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 9?, Divine Protection, Improved
Benefits: When you use your Divine Protection class feature to grant at least 3 points of armor class bonus to a SINGLE ally the granted bonus is double what you sacrifice. When using the multitargetting version of Divine Protection, the targets gain (bonus sacrificed +1) armor class.
Special: A grace-gift of at least ?9th? level may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
Improved Healing Acceleration
"I'll have you fixed up before you know it."
Prerequisites: Accelerate Natural Healing class feature affecting the treatment of disease.
Benefits: If you forgo the use of the Lifesaver class feature, you may achieve improved results. Replace the tables for Accelerate Natural Healing and (if you have or later gain it) Accelerate Supernatural Healing with the following tables. Note that the effects on each row are unchanged, only the levels of success needed to gain the levels of additional success are modified.
{table=head]Roll|First Aid or Caltrop|Spike Stones or Spike Growth|Long-term Care OR Disease (Final needed Success)|Poison|Disease (Needing 1 or more further successes)

<DC|Failure|Failure|Failure|Failure|Failure|Failure |Failure|Failure|Failure|Failure

DC|Ordinary Success|Ordinary Success|Ordinary Success|Ordinary Success|Ordinary Success|Ordinary Success|Ordinary Success|

DC+3|Move OR Standard*|5 minutes|4 / 12 hours|Undo 1 point of damage from a failed initial save or halve duration of special effect from a failed initial save|Special Retry starting in 12 hours**

DC+6|Move OR Standard OR Swift*|3 minutes|3 / 8 hours|Undo 2 points of ability score damage or 1 point of drain from a failed initial save, or reduce duration of special effect from a failed initial save to 1/3rd|Special Retry starting in 8 hours**

DC+9|Free Action*|2 minutes|2 / 6 hours|Undo 3 points of ability score damage or 1 point of ability score drain from a failed initial save, or quarter duration of special effect from a failed initial save|Special Retry starting in 6 hours**

DC+12|Free Action*|1 minute|1.5 / 4 hours|Undo 4 points of ability score damage, 2 points of ability score drain from a failed initial save, or reduce duration of special effect from a failed initial save to 1/5th|Special Retry starting in 4 hours**

DC+15|Free Action*|5 rounds|1 / 3 hours|Undo 5 points of damage, 2 points of drain from a failed initial save, or reduce duration of special effect from a failed initial save to 1/6th|Special Retry starting in 3 hours**

DC+18|Free Action*|3 rounds|40 min / 2 hours|Undo 6 points of damage, 3 points of drain from a failed initial save, or reduce duration of special effect from a failed initial save to 1/8th|Special Retry starting in 2 hours**

DC+21|Free Action*|Full-Round|20 min / 1 hour|Undo 7 points of damage, 3 points of drain, or reduce duration of special effect from a failed initial save to 1/12th|Special Retry starting in 1 hour**

DC+24|Free Action*|Standard Action|10 min / 30 min|Undo 9 points of damage, 4 points of drain, or reduce duration of special effect from a failed initial save to 1/30th|Special Retry starting in 30 minutes**
[/table]
*Time changes are retroactive, but you must have a standard action to attempt.
**Special Retries for disease when there is no previous success are another treatment period, but failure inflicts no damage. Grace-Gift may use Master of the Healing Ward to overlap two treatments for one disease in this case.
((Need to define how <6 second durations for poison secondary effects turns into mere actions that must be sacrificed/pass before the effect goes away.))

Improved Gift of Resistance [Grace-gift]
Every scrap of protection from threats more complex than a blade is yours to give as a gift... provided it was truly given to you by the gods to begin with.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 3, Gift of Protection and Divine Grace class features
Benefits: You gain a +1 bonus to all saving throws. This is three SEPARATE bonuses. Both these bonuses and the bonuses to saves from divine grace may now be transferred via Gift of Protection as if they were base saves.
Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Improved Gift of Tolerance [Grace-gift]
???
Prerequisites:
Class level: Grace-gift level 1
Class features: Gift of Tolerance
Benefits: You gain a +4 bonus to saves against any environmental condition of hear or cold that Endure Elements would provide a mechanical benefit against. You now may effect two targets per point of constitution penalty you take from Gift of Tolerance.
Normal: Each target you effect with Gift of Tolerance imposes a -2 penalty to your constitution score.
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
Improved Gift of Protection [Grace-gift]
Every scrap of protection from threats more complex than a blade is yours to give as a gift... provided it was truly given to you by the gods to begin with.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 3, Gift of Protection and Divine Grace class features
Benefits: You gain a +1 bonus to all saving throws. This is three SEPARATE bonuses. Both these bonuses and the bonuses to saves from divine grace may now be transferred via Gift of Protection as if they were base saves.
Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
Improved Shield of the Soul [Grace-gift]
Your soul's shield is stronger than usual.
Prerequisites: Shield of the Soul class feature, Grace-Gift level 11
Benefits: The spell resistance granted by your Shield of the Soul increases by 2.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Greater Shield of the Soul [Grace-gift]
[i]Your soul's shield is both adaptable and very strong.
Prerequisites: Shield of the Soul class feature, Improved Shield of the Soul, Grace-Gift level 13
Benefits: The spell resistance granted by your Shield of the Soul increases by a further 2 points. This stacks with the bonus given by Shield of the Soul.
Additionally, when transferring your spell-resistance you may choose to reduce the strength of the spell-resistance(s) you grant to each ally benefiting from the transfer, thus allowing it to synergize better with their spell-resistance from other sources. You may reduce each individual spell-resistance granted by a different amount, including zero (but not less than zero... that would just be silly, you silly!).
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Improved Swift to Protect [Grace-gift]
???
Prerequisites: Swift to Protect, Grace-Gift level 5
Benefits: When you use Swift to Protect but before initiative is rolled, you may select one of two benefits:

You may add your charisma modifier to your initiative.
If your total initiative score is less than your charisma score, replace it with your charisma score.

Special: A character with at least 5 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Improved Mobile Defender [Grace-gift]
Even at your most overwhelmed your protection does not flag.
Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, Blocker, Improved Blocker, Grace-Gift level 15, Mobile Defender Class feature.
Benefits: For purposes of the Blocker and Improved Blocker feats you may take Total Defense as a free action at the end of your turn. The effects for those feats is as if you had spend a full-round action taking Total Defense. However if you use this option, any movement you make via those feats before the start of your next turn counts against your movement for said next turn, thus requiring you to expend at least a five-foot step, and quite possibly a move action, or even (in very rare cases) a double-move action.
This version of total defense provides no bonus to armor class or other similar benefits.
Special: A character with at least 15 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Chaotic Defense [Grace-Gift]
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 13, Enhanced Defensive Strike [Law].
Benefits: When you hit an non-lawful creature with a defensive strike it is deafened for 1d4 rounds. If it has more hitdice than your Grace-Gift caster level it is allowed a Fortitude saving throw with a DC of 10+1/2 grace-gift level+charisma modifier to negate the deafness. Furthermore, if you are on your home plane, and the creature you strike is a nonlawful extraplanar creature it must make a will save against the same DC (regardless of hit-dice) or be instantly banished back to its home plane. Creatures so banished cannot return for at least 24 hours.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. You may take this feat more than once, each time after the first, the DC of the saves increases by 3.

Mage-Slayer, Lesser [Grace-gift]
It is difficult to hurt your friends with magic when you are on the job.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 3, Spellcraft 4 ranks
Benefits: Spellcasters you threaten may not cast spells that target one or more of your allies defensively, (they automatically fail their concentration checks to do so), but they are aware that they cannot cast such spells defensively while being threatened by a character with this feat. This includes harmful spells that target an area (such as Wail of the Banshee, Fireball, or Web) occupied by one or more of your allies. Remember you do not count as your own ally.
Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. Note that unlike the Mage-Slayer feat this does not reduce your own caster level.

Plague-Bane [Grace-Gift]
There are diseases that can bring a nation to its knees, infecting more people per day than clerics may cure. Every wise king who values the lives of his people(if only for what they provide him) has a healthy amount of fear of these things... those diseases fear YOU.
Prerequisites: Master of the Healing Ward class ability, Heal 6 ranks
Benefits: The increase to the number of people you can provide long-term care for and treat for diseases (and things that count as diseases due to Hands of the Healer if you have that ability) changes from one half your grace-gift level to twice your grace-gift level.
In addition, for purposes of saves versus mundane disease (IE not intrensically supernatural or magical in nature, and not in the process of being inflicted via Contagion or similar), your Gift of Resistance class feature provides its full benefits out to a range of 30 feet, and the reduced benefits out to a range of 100 feet.
((specify rules, preferably as a sub-spoiler under Gift of Resistance for how much of the time you have to use Gift of Resistance for it to apply to a daily saving throws against disease.))
Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Improved Plague-Bane [Grace-Gift]
You fear no disease.
Prerequisites: Master of the Healing Ward class ability, Plague Bane, Heal 6 ranks
Benefits: You become immune to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
The ranges for Gift of Resistance purposes of saves versus mundane disease further increases, providing full benefit out to a range of 100 feet, and the reduced benefits out to a range of 500 feet.
Against NON-mundane diseases, the ranges are instead 30 feet for full effect and 100 feet for the reduced effect.
Special: A character with at least 3 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. If you had previously taken Disease Resistant as a bonus feat, you may retrain it to any other feat you could have taken at that level.

??Protecting Paladin?? [Grace-gift]((VERY rough draft, just jotting a rough sketch down.))
To both strike down evil and lend defense to others are two sides of the same coin.
Prerequisites: Divine Grace ability from BOTH Grace-Gift AND Paladin (Except this means that you either need to be triple-classed, human, or eating XP penalties... well I guess I could put it on the I list and you could spend a bonus feat on it).
Benefits: Removes multi-classing induced caps from all Grace-Gift abilities.
+1 to all saves? (to compensate for redundancy of Divine Grace)
If the character has the ability to turn undead as a result of his paladin levels then his grace-gift levels stack with his paladin level to determine the effectiveness of that ability. (Simply because paladin turning is weak enough already, so why not throw them a bone?)
If the character has the spell-like ability to Remove Disease as a result of his paladin levels then grace-gift levels stack with paladin levels for determining how many times per week they can do so.
Can take more levels of Paladin even if you take grace-gift levels afterward.
Stack for Mount (once you get mount? Or stack towards mount anyway?)
Stack for Defensive Strike and, if the grace-gift has the ability, Improved Defensive Strike.
Stack for Lay On Hands and Touch of the Grace-Gift points add to Lay On Hands pool (which limits what they can be used for, but allows offensive uses).
Stack for number of Smite Evils per day and maybe even for damage. (Yes, I realize this means you can end up adding charisma to your to-hit multiple times a day... assuming you can smite on an AoO, which if you can't I should consider having this feat allow, but smites aren't often enough a day anyway, so I don't think I care.)
Stack for Hands of the Healer (it is so slow anyway, and you ARE losing a bit of spell-casting).

...... so basically it stacks for everything on the paladin side except BAB and spell-casting? Seems a bit much, but then again most of the abilities are either central to the paladin's contribution to the mix (Smite Evil) or so weak that it doesn't matter much (Turn undead). Could probably drop the save bonus, and the turn undead stuff.
Special: A character grace-gift who meets the requirements listed above may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

??Protector's Reward [Grace-Gift]??(This feat is a rough draft at this time, and I do not consider it ready to play without further consideration. If I had to guess I would say that it is UNDER powered.)
After much self-sacrifice for your allies to protect them from their enemies you have been granted a token amount of balancing to the karmic scales.
Prerequisites: Defensive Strike class feature granting at least a +4? bonus to damage.
Benefits: Each time you deal damage with a defensive strike or GET OFF THEM!!! to a true foe who presents a true threat (both as determined by the GM) to you or your allies add whichever of the following is the SMALLEST to a running tally:

The amount of damage you dealt
Your damage bonus from Defensive Strike for that specific attack (so this will be smaller if you are using GET OFF THEM!!!).
The subjectís hit points prior to being struck, +10 if the target had a constitution score. In other words the minimum amount of damage that would be required to kill/destroy the target.

At the start of each of your turns, and at the end of combat, you are healed for one quarter(one half?) of the amount of the tally and the running tally is then reduced to zero. Hitpoints in excess of your maximum gained at the start of your turn are instead gained as temporary hitpoints which last until the end of combat. Excess hitpoints gained at the end of combat are lost.
This is a supernatural ability.
Special: A character with at least 5? levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
((Change this from 1/4 to 1/2... or maybe 1/3? Anyway, looking at "Aura of Triumph" this doesn't look so powerful after all.))

Sacrificial Defense [Grace-gift] ((Poorly written, but should give the idea. Need to fix this later.))
You take down threats to those you protect, even at the cost of yourself.
Prerequisites: Enhanced Defensive Strike with option for +2d6 damage dealing 1d6 damage to you, Grace-gift level 7
Benefits: When making a defensive strike you may increase the number of d6s of damage you take when using that option by an amount up to one fifth of your grace-gift level. For each additional d6 of damage you take, increase the damage of that defensive strike by +2d6
Special: A character with at least 7 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Shielded Defender [Grace-Gift]
You can work around the problems of wearing a bit more protection.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift Level 1, Proficiency with at least bucklers, small shields, and large shields.
Benefits: You do not suffer an arcane spell failure chance for grace-gift spells or spell-like abilities for buckers, small shields, or large shields. You may tumble while wearing a shield, but if you do so, the armor check penalty from the shield to the tumble roll is doubled and you do not gain any benefit from the shield during your tumbling movement.
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Stoic Protector [Grace-gift]
Your aren't sociable, but you are there when you are needed.
Prerequisites: Dwarf, Grace-gift level 1
Benefits: Replace your charisma(including modifier and bonus) with your wisdom(ditto), for the purpose of all grace-gift special abilities and grace-gift feats(including, for instance, the kicker if you take Combat Reflexes as a grace-gift feat).
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Touch of the Grace-Gift [Grace-gift]
You are able to slowly repair harm to your allies... or even yourself.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 1
Benefits: A grace-gift may heal wounds with a touch (his own or those of others) by touch. Each day he can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her grace-gift level ◊ her Charisma bonus ◊ 4, provided her charisma modifier is 1 or greater.((Tweak this to (Charisma-10, min 1)*Level*2 so that odd points matter?)) Otherwise the amount per day is equal to twice his grace-gift level. A grace-gift may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesnít have to use it all at once, however this ability may not be used on any creature that lacks both an intelligence and a constitution score, and only a number of points of healing equal to half the grace-gifts level (minimum 1) may be healed per use of this ability. Using touch of the grace-gift is a full-round spell-like with somatic components that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Note that this ability CANNOT be used to harm undead (or anything else), and heals undead (and characters with the tomb tainted soul feat, etc) perfectly well. It also is fully effective for healing any construct that has either an intelligence or constitution score (or both).
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Disaster's Bane [Grace-Gift]
By means of this gift a hundred men may be saved in a city struck by earth-quake.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 5, Touch of the Grace-Gift
Benefits: This ability an additional option when using "Touch of the Grace-Gift: a burst centered on you.

By default this option heals up to a number of creatures up to your grace-gift caster level within close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) of you. The TOTAL amount ACTUALLY healed is limited by and deducted from your daily limit of healing. You may elect to heal less than your normal limit per target per usage in order to conserve your per-day limit.

When using this option you may elect to take one point of constitution burn (or charisma burn if you do not have a constitution score). If this burn takes effect then the range of this ability is increased to Long (400ft + 40ft), penetrates all non-magical materials and barriers, and can effect an unlimited number of targets. Magical materials, other than force effects, are penetrated as long as the total amount of such material(s) in a direct line between you and the individual target is less than your grace-gift caster-level in feet. You may specifically include or exclude any creature you have line of sight to and can clearly identify. Other creatures can be included or excluded based on creature type (thus allowing the option to avoid expending healing on half-crushed cockroaches and/or animals). For targets you can't see or clearly identify this ability is automatically fooled by magical disguises with regard to creature type, and requires a caster-level check versus the disguise check to determine if is fooled by mundane disguises with regards to creature type. It is not fooled by any form of concealment, cover, invisibility(Including superior invisibility), the Dark-Stalker feat etc.

In either case the grace-gift may elect to heal no hit-point damage, but only stabilize dying creatures targetted. In such a case the ability consumes points of Touch of the Grace-Gift based on the Grace-Gift's heal checks modifier per the following table.
Heal Check Modifier|up to +10|11-15|16-20|21-25|26-30|31-35|36-40|41-45|46-50
Targets stablized per point of Touch of the G.G. consumed|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10|11|12|13|14


Special: A character with at least 5 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Improved Touch of the Grace-Gift [Grace-gift]
The well of healing within you is bottomless.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 13
Benefits: There is now no per-day cap on the amount of healing Touch of the Grace-Gift may provide.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

A feat to maybe reference for benchmarks (not very granular though):
http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Battlefield_Surgeon_%283.5e_Feat%29

DracoDei
2013-05-08, 01:45 PM
Bumping in anticipation of critique from Wombat of Doom.

I've added some feats to the second listing of feats, and probably made other edits, but I haven't documented them.

TheWombatOfDoom
2013-05-15, 09:46 AM
Alright! So, there's some suggestions I had for your set up based on the fact that one of your posts mentions you wanted to split up feats into two posts. I also thought that some of your information might work better grouped. If you don't like any of it, I won't be upset, just trying to help it flow better. After layout is discussed, I have a index that I'm working on for this class that would be useful, but I don't want to fully assemble it until you've responded to my suggestions, for obvious reasons.

Here is my proposed set up:

Post 1 - Class Introduction

Index
Cross-Index
Intent (from behind the scenes/analysis section)
Warning to GM (from second post)
Important Notes for Players (from second post)

Post 2 - Class Description

Introductory Fluff (from first post - unspoilered)
Abilities
Code of Conduct (you have it as one post, perhaps to emphasize it, but I think it gets lost down there)

Post 3 - Class Description cont. and Tables

Mostly as it is, though I may be able to assist with your table a bit to make it less intimidating


Post 4 - Class Features

Pretty much as is, though I wish the table were in the same section so that I could scroll up easily.


Post 5 - Class Feats

Post 6 - Class Feats Cont.

Post 7 - Work Space / Behind the Scenes

Thread Reasearch (from Suggestions for Gameplay section)


Post 8 - Extra Work Space

Post 9 - Suggestions for Game Play

Post 10 - Changelog

3

Notes on initial scroll -

The red text is things that you have yet to test for the class? Is that for your benefit, or are these areas you want to have critiqued better?

You recommend not using the Class Table to critique, because the initial glance is intimidating, but then, what can/should a critiquer use? Just the Features descriptions themselves?

The other tables below your Class Table they're for all kinds of things, from certain features, to a break down on the orginal class table. Some of these might be able to be combined to make tons of tables less intimidating. Maybe not. I'll fiddle. :smallbiggrin:

All of the listed Feats appear to be only for the Grace-Gift class. No other class can take them. If so, I propose they get named differently and make them their own thing.

Thoughts?

DracoDei
2013-05-22, 06:02 PM
Alright! So, there's some suggestions I had for your set up based on the fact that one of your posts mentions you wanted to split up feats into two posts. I also thought that some of your information might work better grouped. If you don't like any of it, I won't be upset, just trying to help it flow better.
I trust other people's judgement over my own when it comes to lay-out. Everything is clear to ME, regardless of how it is organized, but that is only because I created the material in the first place.

After layout is discussed, I have a index that I'm working on for this class that would be useful, but I don't want to fully assemble it until you've responded to my suggestions, for obvious reasons.
Sorry this has taken me so long to reply. I lost the start of one reply in a power problem, plus I have been hit hard by allergies.


Here is my proposed set up:

Post 1 - Class Introduction

Index
Cross-Index
Intent (from behind the scenes/analysis section)
Warning to GM (from second post)
Important Notes for Players (from second post)
I assume I should retain the spoilers for anything longer than a few sentences?



Post 2 - Class Description

Introductory Fluff (from first post - unspoilered)
Why unspoilered? A lot of people don't care about fluff when looking at a class, especially including reviewers, and GMs looking at the class to know if it is balanced for their game.

Then again, this class DOES play a LOT differently than any other I have encountered, and thus I guess that seeing the fluff basis that the crunch is built on is good for anyone who comes into it blind.



Abilities
Code of Conduct (you have it as one post, perhaps to emphasize it, but I think it gets lost down there)
Code of Conduct traditionally goes at the end I think, not that variation can't be OK. It doesn't really need its own post though in any case.


Post 3 - Class Description cont. and Tables

Mostly as it is, though I may be able to assist with your table a bit to make it less intimidating
Yeah, I got a suggestion I never fully implemented from someone before, but it never seemed to really SOLVE the problem.

As such I'd like to see what you have.



Post 4 - Class Features

Pretty much as is, though I wish the table were in the same section so that I could scroll up easily.


I'm almost certain it Used to be like that in the previous thread. Didn't have room in one post for both due to "maximum character count per post" issues. This MAY only be true with at least two tables, but I feel it needs at least that many given how complicated the staging of, for instance the AoO abilities are. I could maybe put the first half of the abilities in with the table(s) and the rest in the second post, but I think that would be even worse.


Post 5 - Class Feats

Post 6 - Class Feats Cont.

Post 7 - Work Space / Behind the Scenes

Thread Reasearch (from Suggestions for Gameplay section)


Post 8 - Extra Work Space

Post 9 - Suggestions for Game Play
I'd put this before the extra work space I think. Maybe even before "Behind the Scenes". Seems practical, rather than meta.


Post 10 - Changelog

I'll look at this when this cold/allergies let up, but I suspect this could work in general.


3

Notes on initial scroll -

The red text is things that you have yet to test for the class? Is that for your benefit, or are these areas you want to have critiqued better?
That was so I wouldn't be cheating (or at least feel like I was) since I was continuing to modify this after I started play-testing it in a PbP game. Given how the GMs attitude turned out, I don't think I need bother any more. I took out the red formatting I think, I just need to take out the explanation.


You recommend not using the Class Table to critique, because the initial glance is intimidating, but then, what can/should a critiquer use? Just the Features descriptions themselves?
My intent was that they would use the alternate tables, since I was informed that for THAT purpose they were clearer.


The other tables below your Class Table they're for all kinds of things, from certain features, to a break down on the orginal class table. Some of these might be able to be combined to make tons of tables less intimidating. Maybe not. I'll fiddle. :smallbiggrin:
Yeah, those are more various options to let people pick whatever worked best for them since I was having a hard time figuring exactly how to break it out for clarity. The tables for specific features could maybe be moved to those features... but in some cases that is more than one ability, and I don't want to repeat a table, so it may require more thought than just that. Do you have any advice regarding the "Defensive Strike/Improved Defensive Strike" table?



All of the listed Feats appear to be only for the Grace-Gift class. No other class can take them. If so, I propose they get named differently and make them their own thing.
All the feats described, with MAYBE one or two exceptions, are Grace-Gift specific yes... but the list of Grace-Gift bonus feats ISN'T limited to those feats, especially for the lower-tier selections that you get access to at lower class levels. On List I the pre-existing feats outnumber the class specific options by a wide margin.

Once you hit List VI at class level 11 you are out of non-class-specific options, but by that time you have a bit of conceptual momentum going with the idea of "feats", unlike the Rogue's special abilities, which allow generic feat selection at all levels. If I differentiated it between "Take one of these special class options, or one of these feats" then there would need to be two listings for each of the first five degrees, which to me seems like it would only add confusion. Don't you agree?

In addition, a lot of the class-specific ones have pre-requisites, which is a nice thing to "inherit"(in the programming sense) from feats.

Speaking of feat chains, let me give you a design note(with a general question), and then a specific question.

Design Note: I consider this class to be a bit too Multiple-Attribute-Dependant. Granted, charisma is the undisputed king, but without strength, constitution, and maybe a bit of dexterity and wisdom, you may wind up in trouble without the bonus feats that (hopefully) give you options for shoring up your defenses*. Can you comment on if this is a reasonable design principle, at least in the absence of huge amounts of play-testing under various conditions and playstyles?

*For instance, if you sink 5 feats into it, you can end up with +7 to all saving throws. Which sounds huge, especially on top of Divine Grace, until you realize that you are merely paying feats to reduce the cost of giving away up to 12+Divine Grace worth of your total modifiers (one of those feats, Improved Gift of Protection, also lets you give away your Divine Grace bonus for each save, on top of your base save).

Specific Question:
I am wondering about the "Grace Gift's Toughness" chain. For your convenience, I am reproducing it in the following spoiler:

Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least [Grace-Gift]
Your body is a shield for those who need it, and a shield that can not take a few nicks is utterly worthless.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 11, Improved Toughness
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +2/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

((Improved Toughness gives +1 hitpoint per hitdie.))
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser [Grace-Gift]
[I]Your body is a shield for those who need it, and shields need to be strong.
Prerequisites:
Grace-gift level 13
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +3/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Grace-Gift's Toughness[Grace-Gift]
[I]Some shields are better-made than others.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 15
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +4/level. This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 15 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

Grace-Gift's Toughness, Improved [Grace-Gift]
[I]Pain is only the sign that someone is making a feeble attempt to remove you from between them and those you protect.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 17
Improved Toughness
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Least
Grace-Gift's Toughness, Lesser
Grace-Gift's Toughness
Benefit: The bonus hit-points from Improved Toughness increase to +6/level(sic). This change is retroactive for grace-gift levels previously gained, ?but not for levels of any other class you had at the time of taking this feat, although it does apply to levels of any class you later gain?.
Special: A character with at least 17 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
Now, I don't think Improved Toughness is a terrible feat for a Grace-Gift who couldn't put a big number into Constitution to take at 1st level (my play-test character has it, and it seems to work well enough for him). Even then, Improve Toughness strikes me as more of a feat for those with d8 or smaller HD, rather than d12s. After that... well, I almost want to say that the progression of required class levels should go: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 (Rather than the current 1, 11, 13, 15, 17), AND that the accumulated bonus per hitdie should go (+1, +3, +4, +6, +8). If you are going to sink five feats into a chain, I don't think approximately doubling your hitpoints (assuming a 14 Con) is too much to ask.

Maybe I should keep the bonus progression the same, but drop the level requirements on down, and instead add a kicker that gives you a separate pool of hitpoints that can be healed as normal, but which don't actually do anything towards keeping you alive when you take damage directly. Rather then only serve as a buffer for Gift of Shielding.


Thoughts?
I hope I was "thoughtful".

TheWombatOfDoom
2013-05-23, 07:55 AM
Alright, so here's a navagatable Index for you, you'll just have to edit pretty much all your posts to match the set up. anything in (parentesis) can be taken out, they're just suggestions for spoilering or unspoilering. In terms of spoilers, I find that people often skip over them unless they're eye catching - like a note to the GM would be something I'd see people willing to unspoiler, where as Introductory Fluff a viewer might just pass on by. I think seeing it will make more people want to read it, and this is good - fluff is ones only starting point for crunch. All the rest I took your input into account on.

3

Post 1 - Class Introduction (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454489#post13454489)

Index & Cross-Index
Intent (unspoilered)
A Warning to the GM (spoilered)
Important Notes for Players (spoilered)
Post 2 - Class Description (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454506#post13454506)

Adventures, Characteristics & Alignment (all of these unspoilered)
Religion, Background, Races, Other Classes & Role
Abilities
Code of Conduct
Post 3 - Class Attributes and Tables (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454511#post13454511)

Alignment
Hit Points, Skills, Armor & Weapon Proficiencies
Class Progression Tables
Post 4 - Class Features (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454543#post13454543)

A General Rule on Class Features (unspoilered)
Class Feature Descriptions
Post 5 - Class Feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454553#post13454553)

Feat List
Feat Descriptions

Post 6 - Class Feats (cont.) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454563#post13454563)

Feat Descriptions

Post 7 - Suggestions for Game Play (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454600#post13454600)

Racial Suggestions
Ability Importance
Suggestions on Class Attributes and Features
Post 8 - Work Space / Behind the Scenes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454612#post13454612)

Thread Reasearch

Post 9 - Extra Work Space (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454617#post13454617)
Post 10 - Changelog (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13454627#post13454627)

3

Alright...now I'm going to go finish the table, and then once that's done, I'll start PEACHing in earnest, with all your comments from last post in mind. I'll do my best to answer your questions as well, but I'm hesitant to cover those until after I've reviewed everything.

As an added note, the red text is still in the feats section, so you were mistaken. On this page (post #35) I see that you reposted feats sans red text, but I think you could switch one with the other if you want to save the red text for clerical purposes, and then spoiler the whole post so it doesn't WALL OF TEXT. Apparently there was a error, but with the redistribution of things, you may be able to rectify that.

(also, hope you feel better soon!)

Edit: I may start reviewing and then do the table...so many enhanced upon leveling abilities...

DracoDei
2013-05-25, 04:52 PM
You mention "Intent" as the second item in the first post. I don't have any section for "Intent" currently.

Would that be what I should re-name my "Behind the Scenes/Analysis" section:
This is my attempt to create a class that is completely defensive in nature. So much so that half their tactical concern in battle is simply to stay alive.

I realize that this is a very dipable class, but it also should be good for going deeper. I haven't figured out where all the abilities go, but I thought I should request comments before I add anything more. I realize it has a lot of options, but that is intentional, so as to prevent a situation where the class can't do anything because the threat doesn't happen to match up with any of the defenses they can grant. Sort-of like the original reason clerics were given everything on their class list instead of being limited to a smaller number of spells known... although I doubt I have created another CoDzilla, since, by himself, this guy has no offense. I might drop some abilities, but the all seem so flavorful to me (yes, even the ones that just transfer some sort of numeric bonus) and none of them are likely to be overpowered by themselves. Since most of them are mutually exclusive, and all of them are defensive (mostly of OTHERS, thus avoiding a one-character show), I don't think it will make any other character class obsolete. Considering an ability to take negative effects away from allies into themselves... would synergize well with a party member who can cast Heal, but not perhaps not Heal, Mass.

In several cases I have gone a bit out of my way to make it so a Grace-Gift with a charisma of even 4 or something really low like that is still effective, at least as a village healer. The NPCs of the world thank me.

TheWombatOfDoom
2013-05-26, 03:35 PM
You mention "Intent" as the second item in the first post. I don't have any section for "Intent" currently.

Would that be what I should re-name my "Behind the Scenes/Analysis" section:
This is my attempt to create a class that is completely defensive in nature. So much so that half their tactical concern in battle is simply to stay alive.

I realize that this is a very dipable class, but it also should be good for going deeper. I haven't figured out where all the abilities go, but I thought I should request comments before I add anything more. I realize it has a lot of options, but that is intentional, so as to prevent a situation where the class can't do anything because the threat doesn't happen to match up with any of the defenses they can grant. Sort-of like the original reason clerics were given everything on their class list instead of being limited to a smaller number of spells known... although I doubt I have created another CoDzilla, since, by himself, this guy has no offense. I might drop some abilities, but the all seem so flavorful to me (yes, even the ones that just transfer some sort of numeric bonus) and none of them are likely to be overpowered by themselves. Since most of them are mutually exclusive, and all of them are defensive (mostly of OTHERS, thus avoiding a one-character show), I don't think it will make any other character class obsolete. Considering an ability to take negative effects away from allies into themselves... would synergize well with a party member who can cast Heal, but not perhaps not Heal, Mass.

In several cases I have gone a bit out of my way to make it so a Grace-Gift with a charisma of even 4 or something really low like that is still effective, at least as a village healer. The NPCs of the world thank me.


Yes, that's the one. If you don't think that's a good intent post, then you can leave it out or make a different one. I just find reading the writers intent for the class to be valuable when looking at it.

DracoDei
2013-05-26, 05:43 PM
Yes, that's the one. If you don't think that's a good intent post, then you can leave it out or make a different one. I just find reading the writers intent for the class to be valuable when looking at it.
Well, it certainly should be a good starting place at the very least.

I should be able to get started with the edit as soon as I have a day where I am alert.

DracoDei
2013-06-09, 04:37 PM
Ok, I kept waiting for a time when I felt alert, so I wouldn't risk screwing stuff up and accidentally deleting something important, but since that wasn't going to happen, I went ahead and did the reorganization. I might have done a FEW things differently, but my head is too foggy for me to be sure. I need to install and error-check the index you provided. EDIT: The index SHOULD be good now...

Did you have any suggestions for the table(s)?

TheWombatOfDoom
2013-06-10, 07:53 AM
Re-order looks good! I've held off on the editing of the tables until I've read through and am much more familiar with the class. Right now, I'm considering a few things about how to make the class feel a bit less cluttered while still have all the bonuses you have put out there. I have a few ideas, but I'm still working through the class so until I finish looking it over I don't want to say anything. I'm also looking through to see if I can take away the distribution of abilities, so you don't need all of them to function. Maybe I'll be successful? Either way, I'm looking forward to discussing this with you. Sorry I'm taking so long.

DracoDei
2013-06-10, 08:27 AM
I'm also looking through to see if I can take away the distribution of abilities, so you don't need all of them to function. Maybe I'll be successful?
You are thinking that some of the abilities aren't needed at all? Or what? I guess I will find out.

Either way, I'm looking forward to discussing this with you. Sorry I'm taking so long.
Well, it took me a while to do the reorganization you figured out, so I can hardly complain. :smallwink:

TheWombatOfDoom
2013-06-10, 09:51 AM
You are thinking that some of the abilities aren't needed at all? Or what? I guess I will find out.

I'm thinking along the lines of your design note:


Design Note: I consider this class to be a bit too Multiple-Attribute-Dependant. Granted, charisma is the undisputed king, but without strength, constitution, and maybe a bit of dexterity and wisdom, you may wind up in trouble without the bonus feats that (hopefully) give you options for shoring up your defenses*. Can you comment on if this is a reasonable design principle, at least in the absence of huge amounts of play-testing under various conditions and playstyles?

Basically, my mission is to see if I can help you get to the point where you won't need to have decent to really good scores in everything but Intelligence. You're already part way there perhaps with your bonus feats, but we'll see what happens.


Well, it took me a while to do the reorganization you figured out, so I can hardly complain. :smallwink:

Haha, well at least we're on the same page. :smallwink: But despite your drowsiness, it all looks good (except you still have "A General Rule" listed as a special ability in your tables).

DracoDei
2013-06-10, 09:57 AM
Removed "A General Rule" from the tables.

I think that at least a 12 in intelligence, or a 10 for a human is needed to be able to spread out into an interesting number of not-super-required skills. Stuff like Climb and Diplomacy. Thus why I am considering taking it to a 6+Int base. The thing is that PHB classes often tend to be starved for skill points, so I am torn between being consistent with that, and actually doing it RIGHT.

TheWombatOfDoom
2013-06-10, 10:29 AM
I think that at least a 12 in intelligence, or a 10 for a human is needed to be able to spread out into an interesting number of not-super-required skills. Stuff like Climb and Diplomacy. Thus why I am considering taking it to a 6+Int base. The thing is that PHB classes often tend to be starved for skill points, so I am torn between being consistent with that, and actually doing it RIGHT.

Alright, but that doesn't mean you NEED intelligence, it's just nice to have. I'm talking about abilities required for your class to function properly.


Here is the direction that the class most obviously lends itself to. Variations are VERY possible (although Charisma should always be the highest priority).
Cha > Str > Con > Dex ~= Wis ~= Int

So we've established the CHA is key. Then there's STR for Carry the Burden. CON for multiple abilites, with DEX also needed for others.

What I'm saying is perhaps we can thin down the spread of abilities needed. I notice in a lot of classes that they try and keep the abilities centered around one or two abilities. Also, just curious, do you believe in Tiers? I was just curious if you had a goal for what Tier you wanted this class to be at? Might assist me in PEACHing to know.

DracoDei
2013-06-10, 10:37 AM
Alright, but that doesn't mean you NEED intelligence, it's just nice to have. I'm talking about abilities required for your class to function properly.



So we've established the CHA is key. Then there's STR for Carry the Burden. CON for multiple abilites, with DEX also needed for others.
Dex for... Tumbling, AC, and Reflex saves? All of which are "nice, but not required"? EDIT: Tumble because the skill-mod plays such a small part, with the ranks dominating, and AC and Reflex because you get to add Charisma Mod to both those anyway.


What I'm saying is perhaps we can thin down the spread of abilities needed. I notice in a lot of classes that they try and keep the abilities centered around one or two abilities. Also, just curious, do you believe in Tiers? I was just curious if you had a goal for what Tier you wanted this class to be at? Might assist me in PEACHing to know.
Given the nature of the class, it should fairly high a tier while keeping to the concept. Tiers are a measure of versatility at the higher degrees as I understand it, and I want this class to have things to do. At the same time, this will never be a high tier class per se because it is incompetent by itself.
All in all, I think it comes out to a Tier 3... perhaps a REALLY POWERFUL Tier 3 or MAYBE even Tier 2 (but probably not) when looked at from the perspective of what it contributes to a party, or perhaps only moderately powerful, I don't know. Basically, I know that there are going to be some abilities that are more flavor than usefulness, and I am perfectly fine with that... and I am probably rambling from exhaustion, so I am going to stop now.

EDIT: While I think it may be a bit too M.A.D. I also like the idea that different mixes of ability scores should give you different play styles.

Amechra
2013-06-10, 01:03 PM
I have a question:

Why have all the abilities as class features? Why not separate out most of them into a "spell list", and then let them "cast" anything off their spell list at will?

It would make the entire thing more readable. A LOT more readable.

And playable.

TheWombatOfDoom
2013-06-10, 01:10 PM
I have a question:

Why have all the abilities as class features? Why not separate out most of them into a "spell list", and then let them "cast" anything off their spell list at will?

It would make the entire thing more readable. A LOT more readable.

And playable.

Essentially, I was thinking this, except calling them "Gifts". Gift of such and such would be gained at certain levels, or what not. The only issue is how Draco has them advance as they level. Though, that might be neat to pick and choose which ones a Grace-Gift took, and can change them out when preparing the gifts for the day.

DracoDei
2013-06-10, 02:17 PM
I have a question:

Why have all the abilities as class features? Why not separate out most of them into a "spell list", and then let them "cast" anything off their spell list at will?

It would make the entire thing more readable. A LOT more readable.

And playable.
I have considered it...

The Problem:
The problem is, you would end up with some REALLY funky "spell-levels", since they get new abilities almost every level for about the first 4 levels at least, and... then it is mostly increases to pre-existing abilities until you get spell-resistance (Shield of the Soul). And some of those level ups are game-changers, such as when granting +20' movement speed for the cost of a move action gains the option to take no actions for a turn in order to give an ally an extra move action... AKA Pounce... and then later you can give them Standard actions, AKA "In effect, let me use my actions to cast off of your prepared spells this round". Even such "minor" things as Levitate turning into Fly are very important.

The Solution, Part 1:
At 1st level I could definitely see collapsing a lot into "basic gifts", since that is the busiest level, and then break that down into the component gifts. Gift of Tolerance and my planned Gift of Sleep are flavorful, but also rather niche, especially in a hack-and-slash environment.

The Solution, Part 2:
That being said, I think that keeping the current "main" chart (or something like it) AND a version that doesn't list the all the increases to pre-existing abilities would be good... in fact I HAVE such a chart in there, if a bit outdated... AND the two charts that attempt to split things into active and passive abilities. I could even split the ability listings into "passive" and "active", although that might create confusion since several abilities are currently more neatly written because combine the passive bonus and the active ability to give it away.

The Solution, Part 3:
You tell me? I mean is the problem I have described really not an issue at all? Is it one you know a better way to handle? I'm happy to reformat if I have a clear vision (you have provided one), and am sure that it won't be another dead end. I've already done a lot of reworking and offering of alternate versions of the tables, and it hasn't seemed to help.



What I am NOT willing to do is change the underlying mechanics solely for the purpose of readability.

The only issue is how Draco has them advance as they level. Though, that might be neat to pick and choose which ones a Grace-Gift took, and can change them out when preparing the gifts for the day.
I can see where you are coming from, and you aren't the first to suggest this.

That having been said, my instinct is that any sort of preparation is a poor idea (although I may be over-reacting based on the fact that I KNOW that making them pick their effects known, like a sorcerer or warlock is a very bad idea). They can't stack buffs like a cleric (on his allies, not talking about CoDzilla here) or parallel wizard/sorcerer, so never being without an appropriate tool for what they think will happen that round is very much part of the fun of the class... well, actually they CAN stack buffs at higher levels, especially with Gift of Time (their version of Haste, they give away some actions, usually giving up more than they grant), or if they take the "Doubled Gifts" feat chain.

I know it seems like it would be overwhelming, but I have played a 15th level one in live table-top, plus the PbP game I am testing a 6th level one in. Of course, I know the class better than anyone, but still... the spellcasting options in combat are often surprisingly limited. Grant some sort of numerical bonus (AC, Saves, hit-point sharing, SR), grant extra actions, or let one or more people fly. Most everything else is mostly for out of combat use, and helps the class remain relevant in wilderness/travel situations in non-boring ways (IE more than just Survival skill).

Basically, this is going to be a "for experienced players only" class I think... not necessarily experienced with playing the class itself, but someone who can take a tactical situation and say "These are the numbers we need most..." in 5 seconds of real time, spend another 5 seconds figuring out what movement and action options are going to help the most, and then another 10 seconds picking between the options he figured out in the previous two steps... 10 more seconds for recalling/glancing at the mechanics of their chosen option... 30 second of thought on their own turn before they announce their actions and roll any needed checks (augmented by the fact that they should have all this in mind before their turn starts, and the times I give are only for making sure that nothing has changed between when they figured it out and now).

DracoDei
2013-06-10, 03:25 PM
Sorry for the double-post, but I didn't want this to get lost in the mess.

It occurs to me that letting a grace-gift re-spec the last one to three (increasing over level) bonus feats they took could give that aspect of preparation if you really think it would be useful. I think Binders get a similar deal.

Amechra
2013-06-10, 03:54 PM
Well, there was one option that you didn't look at:

Simplify the class features, and make the feats more generic.

Look at the class and ruthlessly cut out parts that aren't necessary to the base concept.

I know this sounds like a highly offensive option to take, but I'm speaking from the direction of someone who has experience with creative writing.

Basically, at this point, you really could over half of the class features that you have, simplify the rest, and then go with a list of gifts that can be customized from day to day.

For example, you could radically simplify the Bonus Feat class feature (for example, instead of creating 7+ lists of feats that you can take, remove the whole "can ignore requirements" thing. Yes, it weakens the whole thing. However, since you are calibrating the feats yourself, you can work out requirements instead of making multiple lists, which is messy.)

Going through the other class features, you should only include explanations of how it works if the wording is confusing. Which it shouldn't be, so you should aim for no examples at all.

And so on and so forth.

DracoDei
2013-06-10, 04:39 PM
Well, there was one option that you didn't look at:

Simplify the class features, and make the feats more generic.

Look at the class and ruthlessly cut out parts that aren't necessary to the base concept.
Well, once I have confidence in the full version, I might be willing to create a second version that does that.
^
|
You are going to see this repeated a lot in the following.

Note that, from my perspective, this class is zen simplicity compared to the PHB cleric... because the PHB cleric isn't complete without the PHB descriptions of every spell they can cast, all the options for domain powers, and the few cleric-specific feats in the PHB.

Sure I've got a lot more feats, but my spells come to a much lower word-count.


I know this sounds like a highly offensive option to take, but I'm speaking from the direction of someone who has experience with creative writing.
Oddly enough, that has never been something I have engaged in in my own writing, and I like the results. It helps that I never use a medium where the pages cost anything.

Different methods for different people?

Writing around my limitations? I see LOTS of connections and possibilities, and almost all of them are important to the level of detail I think at.

No... seriously... description of my writing follows:I am currently writing and publishing a well-received story, chapter by chapter, that mostly consists of A explaining something to B, B explaining the same thing to C, then A explaining the same thing to D, and so forth. The same set of facts communicated over and over again. Now even I would see that that could be telescoped down to "B explained matters to C." rather than spending pages on each run-through, but it isn't about the information. After the first time it is about the interplay of personalities as they present and/or receive the information... and then there is the fact that I intercut this with world-build of both a general nature ("This society is so utopian that the sapient carnivores can dine on the dead from both the trauma ward and the old-folks home without this leading to any problems.") and one of the main characters charting out the exact specifications of the novel strain of vampirism that has just arisen.

Self-evidently you don't think that my verbosity and detail-focus works out well for this class, but I thought that describing how I write could provide context.


Basically, at this point, you really could over half of the class features that you have,
Which ones and why?
As I said, I'll gladly create that second version once I have the main one working.

simplify the rest,
I have never been able to "simplify" anything other than by compromising my vision. See above about when I will be willing to do that.


and then go with a list of gifts that can be customized from day to day.
Why? Why daily customizing? Nobody has explained why that should exist.
My working hypothesis is either a power limiter (I would prefer to limit power other ways) or, more likely, that it is as a crutch to speed game-play by pre-limiting the player's options. I like to make stuff that grants effectiveness in direct proportion to the skill of the player... and then when it is FINISHED, I sometimes go back and strip it down to remove the stuff that doesn't come up often, or simplify some math and do that as a separate version. I might need to go further than that with this, but to do that I would need some fairly step by step help.

But getting back to how I like to make things:
Not "anyone can do it at least halfway decently"... there are classes for newcomers and casual players. I don't happen to wish to make any more. Of course, if one of my designs should just so happen to work out that way, then I guess I wouldn't object too strongly, but I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to make it happen.

But also hopefully not "I read how to optimize, so now I win D&D by being the equivalent of a script-kiddie", but something that requires flexible thinking and adaptation. In other words, mastery, rather than rote regurgitation.

For example, you could radically simplify the Bonus Feat class feature (for example, instead of creating 7+ lists of feats that you can take, remove the whole "can ignore requirements" thing. Yes, it weakens the whole thing. However, since you are calibrating the feats yourself, you can work out requirements instead of making multiple lists, which is messy.)
Those ARE requirements, and are even listed as such (and yes, character level can be a requirement, see Leadership... it is not a far jump from there to class level). A lot of them don't fit into chains very well, and shoehorning it would seem to INCREASE complexity.


Going through the other class features, you should only include explanations of how it works if the wording is confusing. Which it shouldn't be, so you should aim for no examples at all.
I can never tell ahead of time if something will be confusing to someone else. I have trouble getting inside other people's heads, and rely on others to tell me such things.


And so on and so forth.
I'd ask for details, since I am not sure I know what "And so on and so forth." would be, but maybe I could come up with something...
EDIT: And in any case I think we have enough to discuss for the moment, with your other points.

Amechra
2013-06-10, 04:46 PM
Sorry, I'm at a kind of exhausted moment with my creative facilities (damn it, job search!), so I can't help by going through and cutting through redundancy.

But other than that, I'm just going to say that there really isn't a difference between "for veteran players" and "for noobs". There is only complexity, and the thing is...

If you can remove complexity, it leaves more cognitive space for actual use of your class abilities.

To put it more succinctly, a friend and I once timed how long it took to scroll through your class, with all spoilers open, and it took a good 5 minutes.

For just the class features.

DracoDei
2013-06-10, 05:29 PM
Sorry, I'm at a kind of exhausted moment with my creative facilities (damn it, job search!), so I can't help by going through and cutting through redundancy.
I understand, and I thank you for all you have done so far. Maybe Wombat will help me out in that area, or maybe something else will come up... or maybe it will still be around when you get some time and you will actually decide to spend the time that way.

This project has run a long while. I'm not about to start getting TOO impatient now, especially with play-test on-going.


<SNIP>
If you can remove complexity, it leaves more cognitive space for actual use of your class abilities.
Point (at least for some people?).
But... how many of the class abilities have you actually isolated and looked at even the initial versions of? Individually, they are BORING. This isn't Silent Image where the only limit is your imagination, this is, for the most part, Shield of Faith which gives a simple numerical bonus.
The tactical thinking mostly comes in in picking between them and thinking ahead to set things up.
If people need to choke themselves down to fewer options to think straight, then that is what works for them and they can just find their favorite options and stick to them, but I'm not seeing how to do that for them without giving this class the same sort of problem that makes the Fighter a boring class ("I power-attack for full... again."), which is what would happen if I either pumped up the numbers to compensate (or decided that the numbers were big enough already).


To put it more succinctly, a friend and I once timed how long it took to scroll through your class, with all spoilers open, and it took a good 5 minutes.

For just the class features.
Interesting metric!

Are you sure those were all class features, and not the fluff and "suggestions for playing" and such?

In any case, yes, this is really complicated. Part of that may be flaws in my writing style, but part of it is that it is a full-caster(in disguise), and those tend to be complex. I only said it was simple compared to its nearest PHB peer, which may be seen as something vaguely related to "damning with faint praise".

Actually, what I should probably at least try is trying to practice the programming principle of "inheritance" and put in some text about the stuff that "Gifts" have in common, then format the individual stuff into a format that breaks things down into "Benefit" (to target/s) and "Sacrifice" (to Grace Gift), and includes the stuff about Swift action casting (unless stated otherwise), and how you extend it (maybe making that not require AoOs/Defensive Casting).

Hmmm... Here is something...
What would people say to dropping the AoO stuff entirely in the "simplified version"?

TheWombatOfDoom
2013-06-25, 07:34 AM
Sorry about the delay, its been my turn to be sick. Also, I'll be going away on a sort of vacation starting this weekend, so I won't be able to do much during that time. :smallfrown: But I haven't forgotten about this.

DracoDei
2013-06-25, 11:16 AM
Sorry about the delay, its been my turn to be sick. Also, I'll be going away on a sort of vacation starting this weekend, so I won't be able to do much during that time. :smallfrown: But I haven't forgotten about this.
Very good to know!
But I am sorry you were sick.:smallfrown:

DracoDei
2013-10-27, 12:04 PM
There were probably were a few tweaks before this that I didn't feel worth updating about. Also note that I haven't been updating the change-log.

But! Two recent edits:

1.) "Lengthened the Leash" on Gift of Protection (which got split off from Divine Protection). This means they can transfer part or all of their AC bonus to a target with in 20', where before it was 10'.

2.)
At Quellian-dyrae's inspiration/request I've added the following as first level options for a Grace-Gift using Carry the Burden. Note that this means I will be allowing the "Burden Bearer" feat to be taken starting at level 1, rather than at level 3. This won't change which feats my character has (assuming the change is approved), but it might allow him to make more sense, given that he wouldn't have taken Power Attack at 1st level when he can't actually do anything with it.

Anyway, on to the section I added:

As a swift action the grace-gift may take the weight of gravity from one of his companions (NEVER HIMSELF) within a number of feet equal to his caster level times his charisma modifier times five. Initially this can have any one of the following effects:

A Feather Fall effect that last though any number of landing (but only 1 round).
The target character is only considered lightly encumbered by weight. Note that this can allow the target to carry more than they normally could, including if their strength score has been reduced. This has no effect on the non-weight based encumbering effects of armor.
Cause a character wearing medium or heavy armor to only count as wearing light armor for purposes of movement speed, class features, maximum dexterity scores, running multipliers, etc. This also reduces arcane the total arcane spell failure chances from armor+shield by 10%, and halves the armor check penalty. This has no effect on weight-based encumbrance.
As #3 above, but instead causing a character wearing light armor and/or a light or heavy shield to count as wearing none of those things for purposes of movement, class features, etc, and completely negating arcane spell failure chances and armor check penalties for said armor and shield.


I also had to edit a few things in other parts of the ability, but those don't make much net change in the mechanics, they only make things work with the above section. I did say that when a Grace-Gift gets the ability to multi-target with Carry the Burden they can mix and match between effects they give each character.

3.) Made a first attempt at combining a lot of the 1st level stuff into one heading (Least Gifts) to simplify the main table.


Soon I hope to include notes on every ability noting which feats they can be augmented by (most of them can).

DracoDei
2014-02-21, 10:03 PM
Two things:
First, I could use some help double checking that the following ability does what I want it to do, which is to fill in any gaps in the Grace-Gifts ability to properly healbot:

Healing Item Use(Ex):
A Grace-Gift may use certain clerical spells from scrolls, wands, staves, etc. as if they were a cleric of equal level to their own. The spell must target one or more individuals (including individuals in a given area), must allow a Fortitude or Will Save, and must have the [Harmless] descriptor. It must also either be instantaneous or be one of the specified in the list found below. Any saving throw against such a spell that is not voluntarily failed is automatically successful and the spell has no effect on such individuals, even if it would normally have some effect even on a successful save.

The following non-instantaneous spells are allowed, however their duration changes to Concentration, capped at the duration of the original spell:
Any spell with Vigor in the name.
Neutralize Poison
Regeneration

... I suppose I could also try to work in Dispel Magic, (Greater) but that is going to be its own set of tricky wording.

Second, I wanted to copy over some stuff from a recruiting thread I applied to, and some subsequent PMs.

Wow.... I hate to say it Dracodei, but me thinks that's the kinda class you build a game around, less add to a game. I'm gonna have to suggest no for this one, but if you do happen to get a game started around it, I so wanna join that wild ride. (Think kinda like a ff game, that character is a type of main figurehead to some magic or organization and the rest of the 'companions ' are built to work with them. Save th world from darkness or something. (Aeris, terra, etc))


Now THAT is a perspective I've not heard before.

I've played it several times before, and it never gave me that vibe. It is the most supporty of the the support classes it what I've heard... so much so that it takes a very special sort of player to want to play one.

They are sorta intended to work with most classes (slightly less so with full-casters, since they don't need the help as much).

So, while they certainly have that "I am the living sacrifice who is out to set all the world's ills and hurts right." vibe going for them, I'm not seeing the "I'm the star of the show" thing you SEEM to be implying.

Which is to say I'd be very interested in hearing you expand on your insight, since fresh perspectives are always useful in tweaking any homebrew.
.
.
.
Also, I'm just starting running a game right now, and I MIGHT be persuaded to turn over my GMPC Grace-Gift to you if you think you could handle it. Note that I intended him to be a supporting character, not the star of the show. If I had to pick the one character that most characters connect to it would be Vaex, our Lawful Neutral (but with a very Evil cultural background) Kobold. If you are interested, I'd read the campaign first, since it is a pretty philosophically heavy subject matter, with more walls of text than Twilight Sparkle's greatest Book Fort (much like the class itself). Links should be in my signature.


Ah! Gotcha.

I agree on every point as a general rule, but in my specific case I would have been pretty happy to never get the spotlight*, since it isn't quite so necessary to playtest... or at least I would have gotten what of it I actually NEED by asking "So how is my character's class work out for everyone?" and/or "What buffs do y'all want going forward?" periodically.

*Actually, I suspect a lot of players who would go for the class in the first place would be happy even if they never really got the spotlight.


I'll be blunt; I've only given the class a quick overveiw sofar. Take all I say with a pretty handful grain of spice...


Now THAT is a perspective I've not heard before.

I've played it several times before, and it never gave me that vibe. It is the most supporty of the the support classes it what I've heard... so much so that it takes a very special sort of player to want to play one.

They are sorta intended to work with most classes (slightly less so with full-casters, since they don't need the help as much).

So, while they certainly have that "I am the living sacrifice who is out to set all the world's ills and hurts right." vibe going for them, I'm not seeing the "I'm the star of the show" thing you SEEM to be implying.

Which is to say I'd be very interested in hearing you expand on your insight, since fresh perspectives are always useful in tweaking any homebrew.
The Parts of the class I've read sofar make me think that they are less "I do" and more "I enable". This Makes me think very quickly of an archetype of final fantasy classes like, Bard, White Mage, Time Mage...and generally what falls into the "female main character" type. The Story may fall more about the others; but there tend to be at least one thing; if not ALOT of things this character does that enables the other characters to do that action they could not otherwise. Going back to the final fantasy examples; Aeris's Holy Materia, Terra's Ability to use magic unaided, Cele's Runic Ability.

It also helps that I always see Classes that are more support characters sometimes need the spotlight aimed a little more of thier way; since the type of party position their in, the party sometimes takes them for granted otherwise. Reminding the party that they infact, could not of done some of thier wonderful feats of awesomeness without that support is a nice boost to somebody willing to play a character built to support others. The Reason Clerics ended up COD' Zillas is because that was what they needed to do to get people to be that support type character.

I guess I've played so many J-RPGS that it's ingrained in me to see that character thats not always the powerhouse as sometimes, the most important character in the story.

That character that needs the support of their companions to accomplish their missions, even if all they can do it a lot of seemingly minor actions.



Also, I'm just starting running a game right now, and I MIGHT be persuaded to turn over my GMPC Grace-Gift to you if you think you could handle it. Note that I intended him to be a supporting character, not the star of the show. If I had to pick the one character that most characters connect to it would be Vaex, our Lawful Neutral (but with a very Evil cultural background) Kobold. If you are interested, I'd read the campaign first, since it is a pretty philosophically heavy subject matter, with more walls of text than Twilight Sparkle's greatest Book Fort (much like the class itself). Links should be in my signature.

I'm not that much of a writer; it's likely to much RP for me, but thanks for the offer.

DracoDei
2014-04-27, 02:37 PM
Epic Progression



Defensive Strike
Defensive Strike



Level
AC Bonus
Alternate Attack Bonus*
Damage Bonus
Special

21st Cha. Bonus+4 +21 +63
22nd Cha. Bonus+4 +21 +66
23rd Cha. Bonus+4 +22 +69 Bonus Feat(I to IX, or Epic)
24th Cha. Bonus+4 +22 +72
25th Cha. Bonus+5 +23 +75
26th Cha. Bonus+5 +23 +78 Bonus Feat(I to IX, or Epic)
27th Cha. Bonus+5 +24 +81
28th Cha. Bonus+5 +24 +84
29th Cha. Bonus+5 +25 +87 Bonus Feat(I to IX, or Epic)
30th Cha. Bonus+6 +25 +90
31st Cha. Bonus+6 +26 +93
32nd Cha. Bonus+6 +26 +96 Bonus Feat(I to IX, or Epic)
33rd Cha. Bonus+6 +27 +99
34th Cha. Bonus+6 +27 +102
35th Cha. Bonus+7 +28 +105 Bonus Feat(I to IX, or Epic)
36th Cha. Bonus+7 +28 +108
37th Cha. Bonus+7 +29 +111
38th Cha. Bonus+7 +29 +114 Bonus Feat(I to IX, or Epic)

*Don't forget to add your Charisma Bonus to-hit!

Hit Die
d12

Skill Points at Each Additional Level
6 + Int modifier

Bonus Feats
The epic grace-gift gains a bonus feat (selected from the list of epic grace-gift bonus feats) every three levels after 20th.

Divine Protection
The grace-giftís bonus to Armor Class when unarmored or wearing light armor increases by +1 every five levels higher than 20th.

Gift of Resistance
The Grace-Gift counts their epic save bonuses as part of their base save bonuses when determining the maximum bonuses/penalties of this ability.

Epic Grace-Gift Bonus Feat List
(Can also take any feat from the non-epic grace-gift bonus feat lists.)
Absolute Protection, Armor Skin, Damage Reduction, Energy Resistance, Epic Endurance, Epic Enhanced Defensive Strike, Epic Fortitude, ?Epic Prowess?, Epic Reflexes, Epic Skill Focus[Concentration], Epic Skill Focus[Heal], Epic Skill Focus[Tumble], Epic Speed, Epic Spellcasting, Epic Toughness, Epic Will, Exceptional Deflection, Extended Life Span, Fast Healing, Ignore Material Components, Improved Combat Casting, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Spell Resistance, Infinite Deflection, Legendary Climber, Legendary Leaper, Legendary Wrestler, Perfect Health, Polyglot, Protection of Luck, Superior Initiative.

Epic Enhanced Defensive Strike [Epic]
Prerequisites

Cha 21, Enhanced Defensive Strike (Adamantine).
Benefit
Pick one of the following each time you take this feat:
1.) Your defensive strikes are treated as epic weapons for the purposes of damage reduction, regeneration, etc.
2.) You gain an additional alignment you have added to your defensive strikes for the purposes of damage reduction, regeneration, etc.
3.) Ghost Touch option as per Enhanced Defensive Strike.
4.) "Viscous" option as per Enhanced Defensive Strike.

Protection of Luck [Epic]
Prerequisites
Divine Protection(Insight)

Benefit
You may alter the AC bonus(es) provided by your Divine Protection Class Feature to (a) Luck Bonus(es).

Absolute Protection [Epic]
Prerequisites
Divine Protection(Insight), Protection of Luck

Benefit
You may alter the AC bonus(es) provided by your Divine Protection Class Feature to (an) Untyped Bonus(es).

DracoDei
2014-06-25, 06:18 PM
Some commentary from Skype:

Ah, that works then, since only attacks on your ALLIES that trigger AoOs get Defensive Strike (or from movement).
[7:24:13 PM] Random Alicat: Okay.
[7:24:38 PM] Random Alicat: So we can do away with the bit about attacks of opportunity during the Grace-Gift's turn.
[7:25:36 PM] Random Alicat: I will note that the first possibility for provoked attacks gets rather strange in some contexts.
[7:26:13 PM] Random Alicat: Since it doesn't specify how far away those allies can be, in an extreme example... if you're fighting on a round world, say, and an enemy is at the antipodes from an ally, /any/ movement (other than straight up) brings them closer.
[7:27:04 PM] Chris Hobart: A grace-gift who makes no attacks except through the ability adds class level to the damage for the attacks through the ability, which are AoOs which are either A) Not during your turn or B) Provoked by readied actions and ALSO one of C) Movement which is not away from the Grace-Gift's allies or D) Attacks on the Grace-Gift's allies, including but not limited to spells cast at them.

The Grace-Gift... I think doesn't usually count as their own ally, in contrast to other mechanics?
[7:28:12 PM] Draco Dei: Yeah, I realize that (about distance to allies), but... it is the sort of thing that would be a really hard thing to fix in a way I find satisfying, and that is saying a lot since I can usually fix almost anything with enough word-count. Perhaps best just called out specifically to the GM to use their judgement on.
[7:28:23 PM] Random Alicat: Random Alicat considers.
[7:28:33 PM] Draco Dei: And yeah, they don't count as their own ally. It is pretty key to the way they work.
[7:28:54 PM] Random Alicat: Perhaps 'movement other than withdrawing or running'?
[7:29:08 PM] Random Alicat: Completely changes how the ability works, but in most cases works largely the same way.
[7:30:01 PM] Draco Dei: I'm not seeing that as working the same in too many cases.
[7:30:02 PM] Random Alicat: It's also rather strange that, if an enemy is surrounded, the grace-gift gets to use Defensive Strike to hit them even if they're desperately trying to flee.
[7:30:18 PM] Draco Dei: Yeah, it is strange.
[7:30:56 PM] Chris Hobart: It makes sense in terms of the Grace-Gift as a protector of their allies first, and allowing surrender only towards that end.
[7:31:15 PM] Chris Hobart: It indicates that a Grace-Gift can use their abilities to be overprotective, not just benevolent.
[7:31:33 PM] Random Alicat: Yes, but...
[7:31:35 PM] Chris Hobart: If that's intended, then I don't see a problem - only if it's not intended does that oddity go from being a quirk to being a problem.
[7:31:38 PM] Random Alicat: Random Alicat dredges up some geometry.
[7:31:55 PM] Random Alicat: Let us suppose there is, oh, an ogre, standing the middle of a field, with a Grace-Gift next to them.
[7:32:14 PM] Chris Hobart: (And armed)
[7:32:23 PM] Random Alicat: (Armed or with Improved Unarmed Strike.)
[7:32:49 PM | Edited 7:34:03 PM] Random Alicat: Three allies of the Grace-Gift stand at the three corners of an equilateral triangle centred on the ogre, the inscribed circle being sixty feet in diameter.
[7:33:23 PM] Random Alicat: Even if the ogre turns to run, at full-tilt, towards and through the centre of one of the sides of the triangle, Defensive Strike applies.
[7:35:25 PM] Draco Dei: I think it falls under "not precisely intended, but also doesn't do much to ruin the flavor". I could maybe put in a call for GMs judgement on enemies that do not pose a threat to the allies being moved towards, just like I think some Devoted Spirit maneuvers don't trigger the healing if you strike a random commoner or a rat you were carrying around as a level 10 character.
[7:36:06 PM] Chris Hobart: That seems reasonable. The Grace-Gift doesn't need to care about whether the Ogre wishes to be a threat to the Grace-Gift's allies - only that they could be. If the Ogre wants to leave without an AoO, they'll need to offer surrender and have it be accepted. Yes?
[7:36:10 PM] Draco Dei: Chris: Well, they CAN be Lawful Evil, so "It indicates that a Grace-Gift can use their abilities to be overprotective, not just benevolent." does indeed apply.
[7:36:21 PM] Chris Hobart: Mhmm.
[7:36:36 PM] Random Alicat: Note that in my scenario the ogre ends up further away from one of the three allies, and at the same distance from the other two.
[7:37:04 PM] Chris Hobart: But only after their second move, and only by running swiftly 'at' two of the allies at the time they are provoking the AoO.
[7:37:18 PM] Random Alicat: Run is a single full-round action.
[7:37:25 PM] Chris Hobart: Ah, actual run, not a double move.
[7:37:33 PM] Random Alicat: If you want to start arguing instantaneous motion... hmmm.
[7:37:35 PM] Random Alicat: Random Alicat considers.
[7:37:45 PM] Chris Hobart: Then still, at the time they provoke the AoO, they are moving towards the allies - movements CAN be interrupted.
[7:37:52 PM] Random Alicat: I would also point out, again, that the same scenario applies for any triangle of larger size.
[7:37:56 PM] Chris Hobart: (Invisible walls, sudden pits, and the like.)
[7:38:03 PM] Random Alicat: To no theoretical limit.
[7:38:13 PM] Chris Hobart: Yes.
[7:39:12 PM] Random Alicat: I think the ability is best-served by noting that DM judgement should be applied, and that a 'best retreat' movement should generally be exempt.
[7:40:03 PM] Chris Hobart: I think that a particularly Good Grace-Gift would probably well serve their alignment credentials by permitting a best retreat movement, but that's a choice they make - it's not built into their powers?
[7:40:22 PM] Draco Dei: Yeah, I should probably at least suggest "If the ally isn't on the battlemap, it USUALLY doesn't count, although <Horatio at Urbs> type situations would be something the GM should strongly consider allowing on a case-by-case basis".
[7:40:57 PM] Draco Dei: Chris: Yes on the Good-alignment thing.
[7:41:01 PM] Random Alicat: Mkay.


[7:47:11 PM] Random Alicat: ...Gift of Soul worries me, in the same way that just about anything interacting with making magic items worries me.
[7:47:19 PM] Random Alicat: I can't put my finger on any specific abuses, but it worries me.
[7:48:36 PM] Chris Hobart: The other is one where I'm not actually certain of the answer. Artificer scrolls have been ruled to not be Arcane or Divine so that Wizards cannot scribe the spells into their spellbooks. This cuts out an exploit where an Artificer could provide a Wizard with any and every spell the Wizard was capable of learning.

However, it also means that no-one can use the scroll without a Use Magic Device check. UMD checks are part of the class for Artificer, but as we have a Bard, it is relevant whether I can make scrolls they can cast from without a check.

Can a caster with a given spell on their class list cast from an Artificer-made scroll as if it were a 'normal' scroll? If not, why not, please?
[7:48:37 PM] Draco Dei: Random: Well, Leadership maybe... otherwise I think it just lets the cost of the items for the party be spread over more members of the party.
[7:48:56 PM] Random Alicat: Mobile Defender just feels clunky as an implementation. I'd make it a feat, honestly.
[7:50:55 PM] Draco Dei: Yeah, maybe should be a feat... might need to be powered up a bit, but it could be a feat.
[7:51:12 PM] Chris Hobart: Hmmm... I think Gift of Soul actually allows a Grace-Gift to do the physical work on any magical item, so long as someone is available to catalyze the process? Sort of like the Diligent Wright homunculus, except the Grace-Gift provides their own magical connection, unlike the homunculus (which uses that of the Artificer.)
[7:51:35 PM] Random Alicat: A class feature which relies on a specific feat to work and can be traded in for a bonus feat sounds like it should just be a bonus feat, is all. >.>
[7:51:56 PM] Draco Dei: Chris: Yeah, I'd allow the other characters to cast from scrolls etc that you made.
[7:52:31 PM] Random Alicat: Random Alicat finishes reading.
[7:52:47 PM] Draco Dei: Chris: That wasn't my intention, and my gut reaction is that I need to prevent that.
[7:52:48 PM] Random Alicat: All in all... it mostly seems okay, but it's so weird I can't really get a gut read on it.
[7:52:57 PM] Chris Hobart: Agreed with Random - Mobile Defender sounds like part of a feat chain, and certainly something which tank-type fighters would like.

And huzzah for the scrolls!
[7:53:52 PM] Chris Hobart: ... Ooh. I like how Blocker interacts with Dwarven Defender and other no-movement stances.
[7:55:43 PM] Draco Dei: In any case, the "default" Grace Gift build ends up with some sort of a source of *Enlarge Person*, preferably continuous (for Carry the Burden, and reach), and EWP[Spiked Chain].
[7:56:15 PM] Draco Dei: Combat Reflexes too.
[7:56:27 PM] Draco Dei: After that, it gets a bit murkier.
[7:57:12 PM] Draco Dei: Note that I SPECIFICALLY avoided that build in the case of this campaign.

DracoDei
2014-06-27, 06:02 PM
New feat:

Obscured Casting [Grace-Gift]
You have become adept at disguising the true nature of your spells so that your foes do not know where the weak point of your allies is.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift Level 1, Bluff 1 Rank, Sleight of Hand 1 Rank, Spellcraft 1 Rank
Benefits: Add your Grace-Gift caster level to the DCs of all spellcraft checks to identify a Grace-Gift spell you are casting. Alternatively, you may substitute a Bluff check for the DC for any particular casting. This second option is mostly of use to multiclassed Grace-Gifts.

You also gain a Grace-Gift spell that does absolutely nothing, and may be cast as a Swift, Move, Standard, Full-Round, or Full-Round+Swift action. You may use this spell at-will, and as many times per round as you like. The spell-level of this ability is select for each use, and can be anywhere from 0 to a maximum of half your class level (minimum 1, maximum 9).
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.



So, basically, it taxes you 4 skillpoints*, for a very nice bonus (especially at higher levels) and the option to fake casting anything at all.

*The rank in Spellcraft is hardly a tax.

And here is one I haven't put on the first page because I'm not sure of the balance or wording.
Protective Rage [Grace-Gift]
You turn your anger in a different direction, lashing out only when the threat is immediate,
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift Level 1, Defensive Strike class feature, Rage (or other ability that increases constitution and at least one of Strength or Dexterity including Shifting if it meets both pre-requisites due to feats or whatever).
Benefits: You may no longer attack when in Rage (or other class or racial feature applicable for qualifying for this feat), except as provided under Defensive Strike or the GET OFF OF THEM!!! feat. However you may freely use all grace-gift class features and [Grace-Gift] feats (such as Touch of the Grace-Gift) while in such a state.

Levels of classes that grant rage or such features stack with your grace-gift levels for determining the effects of your Carry the Burden, Defensive Strike, and Enhanced Defensive Strike class features, including getting those features in the first place, getting all improved versions of them, and your caster level for Carry the Burden.
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

EDIT^2:
Conditions that paladin Mercies can cure in PF by level:
3rd:
Fatigued, Shaken, Sickened,

6th:
Daze, Diseased, Staggered,

9th:
Cursed (this is an important one, but the DC might need to be slightly high for flavor reasons... 1 to 3 points ought to do it), Exhausted, Frightened, Nauseated, Poisoned(Already covered).

12th:
Blinded(Does PF treat this more seriously than 3.5, since Remove Blindness/Deafness is 2nd, and Remove Poison is 3rd or 4th), Deafened(Ditto), Paralyzed, Stunned.


EDIT^3:
Want to give them access to turn/rebuke (maybe ONLY bolstering/dispel turning?) and/or domains via feats. Might need to require energy channeling as a feat tax for getting the granted ability (at least in some cases), and/or require additional feats to get the higher level spells/domain slots.
Domains that fit flavor-wise:

CelerityComp. Divine: Great special ability (it stacks with everything, keeping it more relevant at higher levels) and spell-list, both flavor and power-wise, although some of them may be self-only by nature, which doesn't fit with the Grace-Gift.

Chaos: Special ability generally useless for actual Grace-Gift spellcasting. Spell list has too much offense (including minions) to fit with flavor.

CommunityComp. Divine: Excellent flavor, power level is high, but "supporty" and mostly good for casting outside combat.

DominationComp. Divine: Possible flavor fit for Lawful Evil. Granted ability boosts the spells on the list.

Evil: Special ability generally useless for actual Grace-Gift spellcasting. Spell list has too much offense (including unhappy minions) to fit with flavor.
Good: Special ability generally useless for actual Grace-Gift spellcasting. Spell list has too much offense (including Blade Barrier) to fit with flavor.

Healing: Flavor is wonderful, and it isn't overpowered at all. Even if I don't create the domain access thing, I need to tag Hands of the Healer and Touch of the Grace-Gift with the (Healing) tag so the granted ability actually is useful.

InquisitionComp. Divine: Maybe for Lawful Evil (or Lawful Good?). Granted ability only helps if I create a way for Grace-Gifts to use Dispel Magic(Greater), of if they also have a way of accessing Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good.

Law: Special ability generally useless for actual Grace-Gift spellcasting. Spell list has slightly too much offense to fit with flavor, although Calm Emotions could fit.

LiberationComp. Divine: Flavor fits, but since it is only granted by a single deity, consider only giving this to Chaotic Good Grace-Gifts. With a "castable only on willing others" caveat for Rage and maybe a few others, this could be good power-wise.

Luck: Flavor is good, although it MIGHT need "cast-able on others only" limitation, and Miracle needs to be nerfed by making it limited to only restorative effects.

Magic: Flavor of individual spells isn't half-bad... granted ability is bad from both flavor and balance POVs.

PactComp. Divine: Any Lawful. Would need to be tweaked to remove Intimidate from added class skills, and Command and perhaps Speak With Dead from spell list (replace them with other things? Recitation(Complete Divine) for instance?).

Protection: Flavor great, power level high, may need "castable only on others" limitation for some of them, and saying that you must have at least one ally within a Prismatic Sphere... or that PLUS you have to be exactly one square OUTSIDE the radius.

Strength: Pretty good, right up until 7th level spells.

Travel: Flavor Ok, power high.

Trickery: Flavor of domain concept OK, individual spell flavor somewhat lower. Granted ability nice enough to be its own feat?


White Raven Stances and Maneuvers to compare:
Bolstering Voice(Stance 1): All who can hear you within 60' get +2 to will save (increases to +4 against fear effects). This is much better in range and effectiveness than a 1st level GG's Gift of Resistance, but can't work against Reflex or Fortitude, ruins stealth, and takes up the martial initiators only stance.
At level 2 the GG can provide a bigger number within 10'.
At level 4 the GG's bonus out to 30' is equal to the general bonus, and the 10' bonus is equal to the Fear bonus. They also only take the penalty to 2 save types.
At level 6 the numbers are purely larger for the GG out to 30' except against fear.
At level 7 they only take a penalty to 1 save type.
CONCLUSION: Should MAYBE start off only penalizing 2 save types.

Clarion Call(Boost 7): Drop a foe with a melee attack -> all allies within 60' take either a move action OR one melee attack at highest attack bonus (AKA a standard action attack for a non-martial initiator). A 13th level Grace-Gift has 30' range with Gift of Time to spend a Full-Round action to give a standard or move action, or a move action to give +20' speeds. The Grace-Gift helps casters more, and can use his ability to accelerate buff routines to conserve the spell durations of short-duration spells,

(need to reread all the martial stuff below here, and compare it to GG stuff).

Flanking Maneuver (Strike 5): If you hit a flanking partner (or other flanker if other flanking pair exists), can make an attack.

Order Forged from Chaos (Move-Action Miscelanious): All allies within 30' can take a move action for movement ONLY.

Tactics of the Wolf (Stance 3)/Swarm Tactics (Stance 8): Compare to Helpful.

Swarming Assault (Strike 7): If you hit, all allies who threaten can make attack on them.

War Master's Charge (STrike 9): Allies w/in 30' at the start can charge with you as an immediate action, in addition to other benefits.

White Raven Tactics

EDIT^4:
Here is another rough draft of something.
Freedom of the Grace-Gift [Grace-Gift]
None can restrain your allies,
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift Level 5
Benefits: You may use the following abilities a total number of times per day equal to your charisma modifier:

As an immediate (or swift) action you may grant yourself or any ally within 30' a Freedom of Movement effect for 1 round.
As a full-round action you may grant any ally within 30' a Freedom of Movement effect for a number of rounds equal to your charisma modifier.

Neither of these uses has any components, verbal, somatic, material, divine focus, etc. This is a divine spell that uses your normal grace-gift caster level. This spell does not require line of sight, but if you do not have line of sight you must uniquely specify your target within that range.

If you have at least 7 levels of Grace-Gift then this qualifies as a 4th level spell, and counts as the ability to cast Freedom of Movement as a 4th level spell for purposes of feats, PrCs, etc. If your levels of grace-gift are lower than 7, then it counts only as its own spell of level 3.
Special: A character with at least 5 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Freedom of the Grace-Gift, Improved [Grace-Gift]
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift Level 9
Benefits: The range of your Freedom of the Grace-Gift spell increases to 60', and you may now use it a number of times per day equal to your charisma score or your grace-gift level, which ever is less (minimum 5 times per day).
Special: A character with at least 9 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

EDIT^5:
Bolas of Grace [Grace-Gift]
Just because an enemy has slipped past you and can out-run you, does not mean that you can't stop them.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift Level 1
Benefits: When making a trip attack with bolas on an enemy that is closer to any one of your allies on the battle-map than you are*, you gain all of the following benefits:
your BAB from your Grace-Gift levels increases to full for the initial touch attack.
The range incriment of the bolas increases by 50%, with normal stacking rules for the Far Shot feat, and the Distance enhancement.
The bolas gain the benefits of Enhanced Defensive Strike, which is useful if your defensive strikes count as ghost-touch and more-so if you have the Anchoring Defense feat.


*The GM should use his judgment to make exceptions to this requirement for "Hortatio at Urbs" sort of situations.
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

miinstrel
2014-09-12, 05:09 PM
So remember forever ago when I said I had some suggestions on Grace-Gift? Here we go! So I get the point of the class: entirely defensive with effects based on reacting to threats instead of making attacks directly. That being said, I think in your pursuit of that goal you've overly complicated some aspects of the build. The mechanics don't need to follow the flavor as strictly. I would suggest creating the base class and then perhaps providing some ACFs for people who want to go further into the role to simplify things a bit.

Another problem I see is you're trying to let them do everything. They have all of these SLAs all the time instead of forcing them to choose which ones to prepare. I've removed several of these and added a spellcasting component to the class.

In all things, compare to core classes for simplicity of phrasing and effects. I'm going to list what I think the following sections should read followed by some commentary.

*****

Skills: Reduce skill points to 4+INT. Remove Use Rope from class list. Doesn't make sense with the class.

Code of Conduct: Upon entering the class, the character must dedicate themselves to either Good, Law, or both. This decision cannot later be changed. A Grace-Gift that selects Good may be of any alignment on the opposing axis (Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic).

A Grace-Gift who ceases to be of their chosen alignment loses all Grace-Gift spells and abilities (but not weapon and armor proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a Grace-Gift. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Again, just simplifying things. By destroying saving throws you're basically saying "your character cannot do ANYTHING, even go on a quest to atone for their misdeeds, until they atone."

Wep & Armor Proficiencies: Grace-Gifts are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the net, sap, and whip. Grace-Gifts are proficient with light armor but not with shields. When using a shield or wearing medium or heavy armor, a Grace-Gift loses her AC bonus as well as the ability to transfer any of her abilities to allies. This penalty does not apply when carrying a medium or heavy load.

I think you're trying to limit the weapon choice too much. What if someone cuts his net in half? How often do nets appear in campaigns? He's screwed then. If they stick to the true feel of the class they'll use the other weps to deal nonlethal. Also, why the restriction on spell casting if they're divine? No other class has Divine Spell Failure. Why start now? I'm curious as to your reasoning for incorporating this.

Aura: A Grace-Gift has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to their chosen alignment(s) (see the detect evil spell for details).

The class dedicates itself to either Law, Good, or both. I don't think it should receive a powerful chaos aura if they go CG since this class has nothing to do with that.

NEW ABILITY - Spellcasting: A Grace-Gift casts divine spells, which are drawn from the Grace-Gift spell list. A Grace-Gift canít cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own. Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions. A Grace-Gift must choose and prepare his spells in advance (see below).

To prepare or cast a spell, a Grace-Gift must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Grace-Giftís spell is 10 + the spell level + the Grace-Giftís Wisdom modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a Grace-Gift can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the Grace-Gift Progression Table. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score.

Grace-Gifts meditate or pray for their spells. Each Grace-Gift must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a Grace-Gift can prepare spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the Grace-Gift spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a Grace-Gift receives Improved Unarmed Strike for free.

Might as well just give it to them. I'm not sure about the rest of these yet... there's a lot to sift through here.

Divine Protection: When unarmored or wearing light armor, the Grace-Gift adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a Grace-Gift gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five Grace-Gift levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the Grace-Gift is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears medium or heavy armor, or when she carries a shield. A multiclassed Grace-Gift caps her total AC bonus from this ability at her Grace-Gift level.

A Grace-Gift may transfer all or part of her total AC bonus from this ability to an ally within 10 feet for 1 round as a swift action. At 5th level the range increases to 20 feet. At 13th level the range increases to 30 feet. When transferring the AC bonus in this manner, it may be dispelled on the recipient (not the Grace-Gift) as though it were a 1st level spell cast at the Grace-Gift's caster level.

At 9th level she may give this AC bonus to all allies within 15 feet for 1 round as a swift action. This use provides an AC bonus equal to two less than the amount she sacrifices. For example, if she sacrifices 4 AC, all allies within 15 feet will receive an AC bonus of +2.

Instead of mucking around with changing bonuses, just make it a flat, stackable bonus. No one in their right mind will leave it as a Deflection bonus as soon as Insight or Sacred becomes available. If you'd prefer it to stay Insight or Sacred, specify one. No need to be able to switch. One isn't inherently better than the other. I presume you added the "max Grace Gift level" part to discourage dipping?

Incorporated Gift of Protection here. Changed level of increases to follow a fluid progression of every 4 levels.

Healing Item Use: Remove this ability. Replaced by spellcasting.

NEW ABILITY - Reactive Casting: Starting at 3rd level, a Grace-Gift may cast any prepared spell with a casting time of 1 standard action or less as an immediate action 1/day. The spell must be of a level equal to or lower than the Grace-Gift's class level divided by 3, rounded down. At 8th level she may use this ability 2/day. At 14th level 3/day.

Gift of Resistance: At 4th level, a Grace-Gift may take a penalty to all her saving throws up to a maximum of her lowest base saving throw to provide an equal bonus to a single saving throw of her choice for all allies within 20 feet for 1 round as a swift action. When transferring the saving throw bonus in this manner, it may be dispelled on the recipient (not the Grace-Gift) as though it were a 2nd level spell cast at the Grace-Gift's caster level.

At 9th level, the Grace-Gift need only take the penalty on the save for which she is providing the bonus.

At 14th level, the Grace-Gift may take the penalty to all of her saves to provide an equal bonus to all her allies' saving throws instead of to a single saving throw.

At 19th level, the Grace-Gift may provide a bonus to a single save equal to double the penalty taken.

Changed to a flat 20 feet, split the difference. Easier to keep track of. Also introduced class ability at 4th level so more things are gained as you go. Changed 20th level ability to 19 as well as making some other minor modifications to simplify it.

Gift of Shielding: Remove this ability. Replaced by spellcasting. Additional "Reactive Magic" ability added below.

Gift of Tolerance: Remove this ability. Replaced by spellcasting.

Carry the Burden: At first level the Grace-Gift may provide a Feather Fall effect, as the spell, for 1 round to an ally as a standard action. The ally must be within the Grace-Gift's caster level times 5 feet. If this ability is renewed on the Grace-Gift's turn each round without delaying his initiative, the effect is "continuous" and the recipient will not fall. When transferring weight in this manner, it may be dispelled on the recipient (not the Grace-Gift) as though it were a 3rd level spell cast at the Grace-Gift's caster level.

For each use of this ability, the Grace-Gift's load is increased in weight by the target's weight plus the weight of all items carried by the target. If this brings the Grace-Gift above their Max Load, they fall prone and are considered pinned. For each multiple of their Max Load reached through this ability beyond the first, the Grace-Gift takes 1d8 damage.

At 3rd level the Grace-Gift may create a Levitate effect instead, as the spell.

At 5th level the Grace-Gift may affect two allies within range simultaneously. Each ally must receive the same effect.

At 7th level the Grace-Gift may create a Fly effect instead, as the spell.

At 9th level the Grace-Gift may affect three allies within range simultaneously. Each ally must receive the same effect.

At 11th level the Grace-Gift may enable the recipient to count as wearing one a lighter category of armor for purposes of class abilities, movement speeds, etc. For example, if used on a creature wearing medium armor, they count as wearing light armor. Armor check penalties are halved, arcane spell failure is reduced by 10%, and the maximum dexterity bonus is increased by 1. This effect can also be used on creatures carrying a medium or heavy load to reduce those penalties.

At 13th level the Grace-Gift may affect four allies within range simultaneously. Each ally must receive the same effect.

At 15th level the Grace-Gift may affect five allies within range simultaneously. Each ally must receive the same effect.

Think about it. With this ability you can allow a rogue to wear mithril full plate with no penalty. That's boss. Should definitely be higher level to remove armor encumbrance.

Also changed this to a standard action. Every single gift ability operates on swifts which means you can at most do one thing each round. As you said in the OOC Sundara thread, they'll hardly ever be taking standards to attack. Might as well use them.

Swift to Protect: At 2nd level when acting in a surprise round, a Grace-Gift may take a swift action instead of the normal move or standard action.

At 12th level he may take a swift action in addition to the normal move or standard action.

So when they roll initiative they get a bonus equal to their class level but the penalty is they can do anything they would normally do during combat anyway? No dice.

Defensive Strike: When making attacks of opportunity, a Grace-Gift adds his class level to his damage roll. This ability may only be used if the Grace-Gift performed no offensive action during the previous round aside from attacks of opportunity. Offensive actions include hostile spells, attacks, releasing attack dogs, cutting a rope bridge to cause the enemy to fall, etc. DM's discretion.

At 3rd level he adds a bonus to the attack roll equal to half his class level. Her attacks of opportunity using this ability are treated as magic weapons.

At 6th level the damage bonus increases to 1.5 times his class level.

At 10th level the damage bonus increases to twice his class level. She must choose one component of her alignment. All attacks of opportunity using this ability are considered aligned per her choice. This decision may not be changed.

At 13th level her attacks of opportunity using this ability are treated as if made with an adamantine weapon.

At 16th level the damage bonus increases to 3 times his class level. Her attacks of opportunity are also considered aligned to the other part of her alignment. For example, if a Chaotic Good character chose "Good" as her 10th level choice, they are now also considered "Chaotic."

What if they move farther away from allies but only to setup for an AoE spell? Easier to just have it apply to all AoOs.

Life Saver: At 4th level the Grace-Gift may always Take 10 on heal checks regardless of stress or distraction. Once per day they may instead Take 20 on a heal check without increasing the required time.

Again, just simplifying it.

Divine Grace: Fine, leave as is.

Helpful: At 2nd level a Grace-Gift may always Take 10 when using the Aid Another action (both in and out of combat). You must still be trained if using this on a Trained-Only skill.

At 6th level the bonuses from a Grace-Gift's aid another action increase to +3. At 10th level the effects last 1 round instead of for the next action. At 15th level the bonuses from a Grace-Gift's aid another action increase to +4.

Master of the Healing Ward: Fine, leave as is.

Courage: At 3rd level a Grace-Gift becomes immune to fear.

Concern for someone's well-being is different than fear. The extra fluff text is unnecessary.

Hands of the Healer: Remove. Replaced with spellcasting.

Gift of Time: At 5th level, a Grace-Gift may spend a move action to grant an ally within 10 feet a +20 foot enhancement bonus to their base land speed for 1 round. If they do not have a land speed they may not receive this bonus.

At 8th level the range increases to 20 feet and they may instead grant an extra move action to the target.

At 15th level the range increases to 30 feet and, as a full round action, they may instead give the target an additional swift or standard action.

At 20th level the range increases to 40 feet and, as a full round action, the Grace Gift may grant two additional actions of her choice to a single ally or one action to each of two allies. A single ally may not receive the same action twice (two standard actions for example), nor may the target combine actions into a full round action.

Gift of Breath: At 5th level you may remove a creature's need to breath so long as it remains within 30 feet of you. You must have line of effect to target a creature. You may use this ability simultaneously on a number of creatures equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1). For each such creature you take 1 constitution damage. You take an additional constitution damage for each size category larger the target is relative to you. This damage may not be negated or removed in any way so long as the ability is active, but may be healed normally once the effect is removed. This ability will last a maximum of 1 hour per caster level. It can be dismissed as a free action and counts as a third level spell cast at your caster level for purposes of dispelling.

Gift of Soul: Remove. This is already in the rules, DMG pg. 215 under "Prerequisites," 4th paragraph.

Helping Hand: Remove. Replaced by spellcasting.

Gift of Life: Remove. Replaced by spellcasting.

Shield of the Soul: At 11th level the Grace-Gift gains Spell Resistance equal to her class level +5. As a swift, move, or standard action, they may transfer this spell resistance to an ally within 10 feet. If that ally already has spell resistance from any source, their own spell resistance increases by half of the Grace-Gift's spell resistance instead. When transferring spell resistance in this manner, it may be dispelled on the recipient (not the Grace-Gift) as though it were a 5th level spell cast at the Grace-Gift's caster level.

At 16th level the Grace-Gift may instead transfer their spell resistance to all allies within 20 feet.

At 19th level the Grace-Gift may increase her own spell resistance to her class level +10 as a full round action. This increased spell resistance may not be transferred to her allies and she must spend another full round action to reduce it to her class level +5 before transferring.

Mobile Defender: At 13th level, you may take a 5 foot step as an immediate action once per round. If you use this ability you may not take a 5 foot step during your next turn.

I'm not sure what you were going for with this ability. SUPER confusing.

Matchless Loyalty: At 14th level, the Grace-Gift receives a single additional will saving throw with a +4 bonus against any mind-affecting affect immediately before it would cause him to harm someone he considered an ally before succumbing to the effect. This can even reverse instantaneous effects like Mindrape.

Gift of Foresight: Remove. Replaced by spellcasting.

*****

So... there you have it. My initial analysis. Hope this is all helpful. Took for freaking EVER (which is a testament to how much needs to be cut out), but was kinda fun. :smallsmile:

Look forward to your comments. Still not sure what to do with the bonus feat stuff yet... Am also working on a table for spells/day and which spells are on the class list. Here's what I have for starters:

0th: Prestidigitation, Purify Food and Drink
1st: Cure Light Wounds, Endure Elements, Shield of Faith, Vigor (Lesser)
2nd: Cure Moderate Wounds, Restoration (Lesser), Shield Other, Status
3rd: Cure Serious Wounds, Helping Hand, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Vigor, Vigor (Mass Lesser)
4th: Cure Critical Wounds, Neutralize Poison, Restoration, Shield of Faith (Mass), Water Breathing
5th: Cure Light Wounds (Mass), Raise Dead, Vigor (Greater)
6th: Cure Moderate Wounds (Mass), Heal, Regeneration
7th: Cure Serious Wounds (Mass), Restoration (Greater), Resurrection
8th: Cure Critical Wounds (Mass)
9th: Foresight, Heal (Mass), True Resurrection

Am thinking maybe spellcasting like a Favored Soul? Select X spells for your book and have increased spells/day. Also maybe an ability that gives them cantrips at will at 5th level? Not sure. Cheers!

DracoDei
2014-09-13, 08:03 PM
One thing I forgot to ask was, now that you have read in more detail, what your general impression of the power level of the class as it currently stands (prior to any changes you might inspire) is, including the optimization floor and ceiling.

Is it stronger than a CoDzilla cleric? Hopefully not, assuming that the Grace-Gift is also similarly optimized (but not counting anything I've specifically called out as definite cheese, such as having three of them in the same party and having them all using AoE Gift of Protection to boost the parties ACs sky high normally).

What about a party-buff-bot Sorcerer, Cleric, or Wizard?

Is it stronger than a paladin? Hopefully so since melee is usually considered weak.

What about a spiked chain tripper build that incorporates Mage-Slayer (probably a Fighter)? I believe someone in the Sundara OOC thread said that Grace-Gift was actually better at that build than the pre-existing variants, but since that build is better at attacking when an enemy tries to get up (GG's don't get their class features to help them with that), gets a free attack with each successful trip, and can actually attack effectively during its own turn I find myself somewhat dubious. I suppose one could always eventually take Improved Trip (Which requires Expertise) as a regular feat for the extra (damaging) attack AND Defensive Trip so you can trip during an AoO (or can you do that anyway?). Grace-Gift with Fighter 2 level dip would probably be the fastest way to do that if one really wanted to.

How much would you say your changes alter the power levels?

One thing I'm almost sure of is that it is Tier 3 or maybe Tier 2. Tiers are mostly useful as measures of flexibility, which is only one facet of overall power level. Since I am that sure, I'd prefer you go beyond that sort of thinking. Actually, talking about Tiers is completely optional as far as I am concerned.

Understand, this is a much less important question to me than how to clarify the class, but it is still worth going into, if only so I can use you as a reference for further attempts to get into games for more play-test.


So remember forever ago when I said I had some suggestions on Grace-Gift? Here we go!
Thank you very much!

I am truly grateful. I was beginning to worry that you had quietly given up due to the magnitude of the task, or were waiting on me to make my character for the Sundara campaign. I see that you were just taking a larger chunk rather than a smaller one. As far as I can tell the only part you left getting started on until later was the feats.

My gratitude needs to be emphasized because a lot of your suggestions aren't going to go down easily with me. Perhaps as a separate class, in a separate thread. I had already had an abortive attempt to create a "Grace-Gift Lite" a while back, for those who can't handle the unavoidable complexity, and were willing to trade away flavor for it. I didn't like it (down that road lies the horror that is 4E), but I was willing to do it as a service to the Giant in the Playground community. Your fix blows that unfinished attempt out of the water. Kudos on that! I may very well port your fix with a few changes into a new thread.

Some a few of your proposed changes I intend to incorporate into the class in this thread as soon as I have the time and energy (a highly random thing with me), and almost all of them are thought-provoking, even if the FIRST thought they provoked in me was "Do not want.". Moving past first impressions is an important skill. I'd like to think I'm better at it than most, if only from constant practice due to impaired abilities to make such judgement calls, but more practice is always good. Certainly the class you describe would be about as balanced as what I currently have, but I don't know that it would be nearly as flavorful.

One specific, non-flavor, thing that came up a lot in this response is that you reduced the number of levels that certain abilities increment at by combining different effects. For instance range and intensity, or numerical strength and typing (such as aligned AoOs). This goes against a design principle of mine to generally keep things smooth when possible. This is somewhat related to the idea of avoiding "dead levels", but at a more fine-grained level. Even an ability that increments 3 points every 5 levels irks the mathematician and simulationist in me, but that is probably overkill. In any case, I'm not nearly as strongly opposed to this as stuff that messes with the flavor/mechanics meshing.

Said minor changes to turn your suggestions into "Grace-Gift Lite" would/might include the following (or we could just go with almost exactly what you created):

Definitely dropping the spellcasting you added. I explain my objections to said spellcasting in more detail at various other places in this post, so for the moment just trust me that this is definitely the way to go for the "Lite" version.
Perhaps putting back in some of the higher level SLAs such as the Raise Dead line, and Precognition. All of these would be at-will, with the Raise Dead line being balanced by the Constitution Burn, and the Precognition by the "usable only on others".
Probably putting back in some form of Healing Item Use, although I might simplify it down by removing the "concentration duration" stuff and/or rewording the limits on what spells they can cast from items. This creates a problem with the Vigor line, Regeneration, and perhaps a few other things, but it is worth it when going strongly for simplicity.
Removing the Bonus Feats or at least making them static. I'd prefer to remove them entirely and just power up the remaining abilities to compensate.
Maybe build Touch of the Grace-Gift into the class itself rather than as a class-specific feat. This cuts out most of the flexability, but given that the class itself is so interesting, maybe a large variety of builds within it is not strictly necessary (and if people have played the "Lite" version and still want more, they can just move on to the full version).
Perhaps drop the (Enhanced) Defensive Strike abilities to simplify the tactical picture.
Remove most of the applications of Carry the Burden, perhaps ONLY retaining Fly, and having it start out the weight transfer at 1/2, maybe scaling to 1/3, then 1/4. There is a feat for reducing the amount of weight transferred, but if we are going to be getting rid of the bonus feats, this is useful, especially if we retain the multi-targeting.
Power up the remaining abilities in simple ways.

Gift of Resistance could start of penalizing only the save being boosted, with the ability to boost multiple saves at once coming at a much earlier level. 1/2 penalties might come earlier too.
If Gift of Shielding is retained, then perhaps it could be swift action with "Original target takes 1/4 damage, you take 1/2" so that 1/4 of the damage is prevented, and also it makes it an even stronger defense for a squishy caster.
Perhaps make it so that, rather than swift action casting, you can turn on, turn off, or reassign a given Gift (except for Gift of Time) as a standard action. This means you can have more buffs running at once, which is, by default, a power increase.



So I get the point of the class: entirely defensive with effects based on reacting to threats instead of making attacks directly.
And with the focus of the feel/flavor being on defending others (since the defenses you get are passive until you start giving them away).

That being said, I think in your pursuit of that goal you've overly complicated some aspects of the build. The mechanics don't need to follow the flavor as strictly.
It is actually part of my design philosophy to almost never sacrifice fidelity to the flavor for the sake of simplicity. OTOH I'm always looking for help with how to write more clearly while remaining true to the fluff concepts. This means writing fluff well (not usually a problem for me?) and coming up with mechanics, and ways of explaining those mechanics that keep the crunch extremely true to the fluff.

See earlier comments about the possibility for a "Grace-Gift Lite".

I would suggest creating the base class and then perhaps providing some ACFs for people who want to go further into the role to simplify things a bit.
This could work in theory. I've never really done much with ACFs so I can't really comment.


Another problem I see is you're trying to let them do everything. They have all of these SLAs all the time instead of forcing them to choose which ones to prepare. I've removed several of these and added a spellcasting component to the class.
The first two sentences here end up being a misleading statement, since the number of choices on the list you wrote up there is remarkably small, especially once you strip out the stuff you added that I very specifically don't want them to have.

For one thing you gave them healing spells, which, especially when it comes to Heal and higher doesn't go with the feel I'm going for, ESPECIALLY as an immediate action.

You probably meant that they should have all the spells from Healing Item Use explicitly listed out, and then pick their spell list from that? This runs into problems, both with having a specific list that can't be extended to homebrew or other sources we are not familiar with, and also with the aforementioned idea that I want to retain the gold-piece costs.

I suppose that an explicit list (perhaps augmented with rules of thumb for a GM to add to it) might be better than a complicated description, although we might steal a trick from a PrC I wrote (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?143156-(3-5)-(PrC)-(Race)-Freya-Fratley-s-Retirement-Years-and-the-Burmecian-Race-PEACH) and give them a separate list for spells that the count as being able to cast (increasing in spell levels as per a cleric), but which they have no way of casting except from items. Shoot we could go whole hog and let them craft the things too, or at least get the ability to craft all of them using a single feat, rather than spending separate feats for Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion, Craft Wand, and Craft Staff. They already have the ability to donate XPs to crafting, so it wouldn't be that big a step up, and the narrowed range of spells would make up for the wide variety of formats they can put those spells in.

In all things, compare to core classes for simplicity of phrasing and effects.
You mean the classes designed to be the most generic so they could cover as many possibilities as they could in the least-focused of the books with classes in them? In other words the least flavorful of the classes?

Yeah, you are going to have to explain that one to me a bit more. This is "obscure splat-book" material here, hopefully we can make it "ToB or better" levels of flavor (and even better than that in terms of a unique feel to play), rather than something that was relegated to justified obscurity due to its unreadability* and/or poor balance.

*This class may be one of the longest classes in existence in terms of its actual class write-up (any PHB full-caster is more complicated due to the fact that, if you want to be fair, you have to include the texts of every spell on their class list in addition to the actual text of the class proper), but at least there are not any sentences that stop in the middle, and I'm pretty sure that everything is technically complete. I've seen some 3rd party books that failed at least one of these requirements.

Speaking of bad writing, it is possible that in my desire not to walk away from my computer for a few hours and forget what I was doing, plus wanting to go get something to eat, and perhaps watch some YouTube that I may not have proof-read this post (and the next which is only a separate post due to character-count limits) before posting as thoroughly as I might have otherwise to make sure I didn't stop any thoughts (or even sentences) in the middle or screw up the formatting. Please tell just tell me if so.

I'm going to list what I think the following sections should read followed by some commentary.

*****

Skills: Reduce skill points to 4+INT.
Skill-point reduction COULD make sense, although, as I said in the Sundara OOC thread, it is to help with MAD that I increased it to 6+Int in the first place after some play-test and resulting discussion.

The thing is, in 3.0/3.5, I consider them to have three "must have" skills: Concentration (Con), Heal(Wis), and Tumble(Dex), the last two of which are based on tertiary-tier ability modifiers. That means that unless you are playing human you run into problems in Point Buy games in that you don't really have very many options, especially given the size of your class skill list. Lack of skill points is a frequent gripe about 3.0/3.5, which Pathfinder was praised for fixing. I took the position that I would not perpetuate this flaw simply to retain parity with PHB classes. Speaking of Pathfinder, I'll note that in that system I was already considering reducing the skill points to 4+Int (or maybe get weird and go 5+Int), since Concentration isn't something you can put skill points into in that system, reducing the "Must have" list to Acrobatics and Heal.

Remove Use Rope from class list. Doesn't make sense with the class.
Actually, it very much makes sense, although I could fix it with a class feature that lets them use Climb for Use Rope when tying simple knots or making harnesses.
*Looks at a later comment* I could also stretch it to making/repairing nets in a pinch, although I'd rather retain Use Rope and make that extension (not that a reasonable GM wouldn't allow that anyway).

The entire point of half the skills on their class list is to make them the guy that other members of the party DON'T have to worry about supporting in various circumstances. Well, that and, at level 3+, to make Carry the Burden a bit better since they can actually climb up the cliff easily after they've Levitated everyone else up, although that is already a slow enough process that it could be argued that adding on "the rest of the party anchors a pre-knotted rope by one means or another and the Grace-Gift makes their DC 0 or 5 untrained climb checks." isn't a big deal. At levels 1 and 2 being the guy to anchor that rope (and being able to do so quickly) goes along with the "minor utility" flavor of the class.



Code of Conduct: Upon entering the class, the character must dedicate themselves to either Good, Law, or both. This decision cannot later be changed. A Grace-Gift that selects Good may be of any alignment on the opposing axis (Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic).
No reason they would ever pick "Both". Originally they were locked to whatever specific alignment they picked, but one person advised me to change that to only being locked on one axis, and I liked the idea. I could be persuaded to change it back with a good enough argument, or, as a middle route, to say that if your alignment reverses over time on any axis then you "fall". So if you start at Neutral Good you could be any Good, but if you start at Lawful Good, then you are limited to that and Neutral Good. Perhaps say that it counts all alignments you have ever had, plus your choice at first level of Good or Lawful, just to keep the roleplay stronger so you don't get everyone starting as LN or NG and then immediately moving to their preferred alignment (including during backstory if starting at level 2 or higher).



A Grace-Gift who ceases to be of their chosen alignment loses all Grace-Gift spells and abilities (but not weapon and armor proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a Grace-Gift. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Again, just simplifying things. By destroying saving throws you're basically saying "your character cannot do ANYTHING, even go on a quest to atone for their misdeeds, until they atone."
Eh, perhaps reasonable. There isn't anything that says the quest MUST come first, and if they just ran afoul of a Helm of Opposite Alignment or something the Atonement wouldn't have an XP cost and thus a quest to prove one deserves it and aren't just going to repeat the violation later wouldn't make any sense.

No, wait that doesn't work because they are keeping part of the blessing while losing the purpose for which it was intended. Actually, I suppose that could be fluffed as their god allows them to keep that small vestige of their powers, while suffering psychologically from seeing the people they could have helped suffer in various ways.

I suppose it works, as long as it wouldn't encourage dipping shenanigans or something. I guess the biggest problem would be some... very immature player from being inconsistent with their personality and "getting away with" keeping the d12 HD and all good saves for a dip from sorcerer or something. I say "immature" rather than "munchkin" because a true min-maxer would probably just pick the alignment aspect they can use with the rest of their build and/or can play easiest and then do the same dip (if they are going to dip) and never violate the restrictions in the first place.

tl;dr : That could work.

Perhaps they could retain the ability to transfer bonuses (at least after they return to an acceptable alignment), but they just never get said bonuses in the first place. This would include having poor saves, although they could still provide the same magnitude of bonuses it would just mean that they, in effect, have negative numbers for base saves on those rounds.


Wep & Armor Proficiencies: Grace-Gifts are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the net, sap, and whip. Grace-Gifts are proficient with light armor but not with shields. When using a shield or wearing medium or heavy armor, a Grace-Gift loses her AC bonus as well as the ability to transfer any of her abilities to allies. This penalty does not apply when carrying a medium or heavy load.

I think you're trying to limit the weapon choice too much.
Perhaps. You aren't the first person to suggest giving them more proficiencies rather than just choosing 1+bolas. Losing all class abilities while in heavier armor is... more extreme, feeling like a throw-back to 2nd edition. Perhaps the throw-back is not a horrible thing though? It does push it even farther towards rewarding abuse of the class to become a one man show (especially with dipping), even a Sorcerer/Grace-Gift (which is probably already a better dip than Sorcadin) at least retains the OPTION to use the Gifts well.

You've definitely opened it up too much though. Still, I think I can fix it. The whip definitely fits now that you mention it, as long as it gets the same caveats as the net. The damage is terrible, but that is what the damage bonuses from Defensive Strike are for (assuming you kept that ability). Actually, it might be too good due to some of those same caviats. Should it still provoke if you are within their reach?

Perhaps I will create another bonus feat for them that lets them use a whip that way... but having EWP[Spiked Chain] as a pre-requisite. Say that only though the understanding of flexible weapons gained from the chain can you really learn how to channel your power effectively through a whip. The damage nerf and extra feat cost should offset the reach increase... except that it now doesn't work against against anything wearing armor, or which has a natural armor bonus of +3 or better. I suppose I could modify that too? That would be a pretty complicated feat, but I guess that is par for the course with my writing. Might do it, might not.
*Looks at whip detail in SRD*
NOPE. No way. Not happening. You thought 40' to 50' reach for a naturally-medium-sized character (Item of Enlarge Person, Spiked Chain/Long Spear, Greatreach Bracers), was bad? A whip has a base reach of 15' meaning that would become 60' to 70'. Note that an only slightly less harsh reading of the rules applies the +10' for activating the bracers BEFORE the doubling from the Reach aspect, but still after the doubling for the size increase. That would give 40'/60' for the chain/long spear, and 60'/100' for the whip.

Maybe if whips can only be used with the Defensive Trip feat, which would then also be the thing granting proficiency with them. I suppose I could give them whip proficiency from the start, but it would be even weaker than their current bolas proficiency (except at exactly 15' of range), and redundant with it.

In any case, the other reason I wanted to restrict them to a very very small number of weapon proficiencies was that it seemed to me to make them feel less "offensive". This is one of the FEW times when the 'feel' aspect is small enough that I'm willing to allow the mechanics to over-ride it. Now that I think of it, I guess the idea of being able to pick up any common weapon and defend people with it is just as good!

It is also a bit of a power-up. It is probably trivial though. To explain: at low levels you don't have to pick between a Net(movement control), Long-spear (d8 reach), Morning Star (d8 without reach, good against skeletons), [normal]spear (ditto except for the skeletons), and a sickle (back-up weapon in case of zombies). At higher levels a quarterstaff (for when the extra 0.5 strength bonus is better than the d6->d8 increase) also becomes attractive as a compromise between a spear and a morningstar. At 1st level the money saved on a quarterstaff may be important. Naturally, dropping a feat on EWP makes all of these irrelevant except for the Net.

Anyway, how would this grab you?
"all simple melee weapons (but only for melee attacks) plus the net, sap, and bolas"
The parenthetical part could be dropped for simplicity if absolutely necessary, since throwing a club or (short) spear isn't much of a thing, especially when it turns off a fairly nice class feature.

As for the bolas, the fact that you are at poor BAB with them, the short range increment, and the fact that I think it still turns off your [Enhanced] Defensive Strike class features for the round makes them a bad enough idea to actually use in most cases that I went ahead and created a feat to fix all of that. It is called "Bolas of Grace" and can be found two posts before this one, along with several other feats that I haven't necessarily gotten around to adding to the main feat posts.
Quoted below for your convenience.


EDIT^5:
Bolas of Grace [Grace-Gift]
Just because an enemy has slipped past you and can out-run you, does not mean that you can't stop them.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift Level 1
Benefits: When making a trip attack with bolas on an enemy that is closer to any one of your allies on the battle-map than you are*, you gain all of the following benefits:
your BAB from your Grace-Gift levels increases to full for the initial touch attack.
The range increment of the bolas increases by 50%, with normal stacking rules for the Far Shot feat, and the Distance enhancement.
The bolas gain the benefits of Enhanced Defensive Strike, which is useful if your defensive strikes count as ghost-touch and more-so if you have the Anchoring Defense feat.


*The GM should use his judgment to make exceptions to this requirement for "Hortatio at Urbs" sort of situations.
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
((This is filler text to make you look at the above rather than missing it by thinking that the above was me quoting you, and you were reading too fast to catch the last sentence before the quote.))

What if someone cuts his net in half? How often do nets appear in campaigns? He's screwed then./I]
Carry a spare net? Use Rope Use to repair it? (Yet another reason to keep Rope Use).

And before you say "too expensive": I'd consider that a feature, not a bug. Grace-Gifts aren't supposed to invest heavily in their individual weapons (the "golf bag" effect is something else, but they even have feats and class features for reducing that), because that gets boring and goes against their flavor. Masterwork weapons aren't that expensive at higher levels, and nets don't benefit from being aligned since they don't deal damage in the first place.

Actually... there may be a bit of munchkinry there that might merit an anti-munchkin tweak... +1 shocking net. Seems to me you are now doing 1d6 electricity damage on the initial touch attack hit. Ok, so maybe not TOO bad so far, except that now you get to add your level-based damage bonuses.

If they stick to the true feel of the class they'll use the other weps to deal nonlethal.[/I]
Mostly if they are Good? Easy mistake to make, and probably something I should clarify in one of the fluff sections. Evil Grace-Gifts aren't any more likely to want to deal subdual damage than any other evil character I don't think... well, maybe slightly more since I can see their "advance the cause of Evil" schtick being especially prone to wanting to capture alive so that torture can be applied. Whether said torture is for information, making an example of someone, or both could vary.

In any case, taking -4 to-hit to deal non-lethal damage with a normally lethal weapon stinks, although it could be argued that at lower level you just hit them normally and then use Life Saver after the battle to stabilize them, and at higher levels you eat the -4 with your charisma-bonus to-hit.

Also, why the restriction on spell casting if they're divine? No other class has Divine Spell Failure. Why start now? I'm curious as to your reasoning for incorporating this.
Wanted to keep them to light armor. If I change them back to unarmored, the need for Spell Failure effecting their abilities despite the Divine nature only becomes stronger (although I have a feat that lets them use Medium Armor, and I could make that "Light or Medium").


Aura: A Grace-Gift has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to their chosen alignment(s) (see the detect evil spell for details).

The class dedicates itself to either Law, Good, or both. I don't think it should receive a powerful chaos aura if they go CG since this class has nothing to do with that.
I might include a parathetical note to GMs about the chaotic part, but I think that your actual edit is an excellent one, I've gone ahead and edited it in to the class.[/QUOTE]


NEW ABILITY - Spellcasting: A Grace-Gift casts divine spells, which are drawn from the Grace-Gift spell list. A Grace-Gift canít cast spells of an alignment opposed to his own. Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions. A Grace-Gift must choose and prepare his spells in advance (see below).

To prepare or cast a spell, a Grace-Gift must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Grace-Giftís spell is 10 + the spell level + the Grace-Giftís Wisdom modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a Grace-Gift can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on the Grace-Gift Progression Table. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score.

Grace-Gifts meditate or pray for their spells. Each Grace-Gift must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a Grace-Gift can prepare spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the Grace-Gift spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation.

Even if you talked me into including this for some reason, I'd definitely keep the note about how it would require a REALLY weird situation for a saving throw to be involved.

I've explained in other places why I REALLY don't like this.
[QUOTE=miinstrel;18101459]

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a Grace-Gift receives Improved Unarmed Strike for free.
IUS in and of itself is not a very good feat, however it does serve as a prerequisite for a lot of other feats, PrCs, etc. As such this may be a bad idea, especially in the case of dips.

Still, if we are going to give them more attack options, then this could work. Maybe roll it into Defensive strike?


Might as well just give it to them. I'm not sure about the rest of these yet... there's a lot to sift through here.
Yeah, it is the source of most of more meaningful options when building a character.

One rule of thumb is that for any given class feature (including the individual least gifts) there is almost certainly at least one feat that improves it, provided you count Defensive Strike and Improved Defensive Strike as a single ability (there are at least half a dozen feats that power it up some of which can be taken multiple times). the extended heal skill use features and the per-day SLA's would be exceptions (although I could fix that with a feat that doubles the per day uses, and gives +2 caster level for anything that is at-will, which still wouldn't overpower it because they are all so niche). Most of the individual class features have at least two feats associated with them.

I had to give them all those Gifts so that they wouldn't be stuck doing nothing on any give round for lack of an applicable Gift. Doesn't mean I had to make them all equally useful, or remove the idea of picking your favorites. Most spell-casting classes have to pick what they want to cast that day (or at all for sorcerers, and, to a lesser extent, wizards). Grace-Gifts instead pick what they want to be especially good at casting period. The named SLAs are another matter entirely.



Divine Protection: When unarmored or wearing light armor, the Grace-Gift adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a Grace-Gift gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five Grace-Gift levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).
Specifying that the bonus is a deflection bonus is important to keep stacking under control so their base-line AC doesn't get too huge. I believe that the Sundara OOC thread supports the idea that the AC might be a bit high*. Secondarily the same argument can be made for the AC of a protected character, especially at mid-levels. In fact, I've had suggestions that it should ALWAYS be a deflection bonus and never anything else in order to keep the total ACs more under control.

*As I said over there, I wouldn't be opposed in principle to turning this back into an unarmored class. It started out that way, but I was told that they would need at least light armor in order to make Gift of Protection viable. Naturally, if I do that, I would be much less open to dropping them to d10 for hitdice, which is also something I could perhaps be talked into. Between the two I really prefer the d12 and unarmored option.

One weird idea would be to say that it changes type when granted to another person, and for themselves it is always an armor bonus, meaning it doesn't stack with the light armor. Or maybe have it scale into different types of bonuses, but I don't think that works nearly as well since it moves away from simplicity while being neutral for flavor. It also would mean that they aren't actually giving anything up when using Gift of Protection at early levels if they are wearing studded leather or a chain shirt and have a reasonable charisma score.


These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the Grace-Gift is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears medium or heavy armor, or when she carries a shield. A multiclassed Grace-Gift caps her total AC bonus from this ability at her Grace-Gift level.

A Grace-Gift may transfer all or part of her total AC bonus from this ability to an ally within 10 feet for 1 round as a swift action. At 5th level the range increases to 20 feet. At 13th level the range increases to 30 feet. When transferring the AC bonus in this manner, it may be dispelled on the recipient (not the Grace-Gift) as though it were a 1st level spell cast at the Grace-Gift's caster level.

At 9th level she may give this AC bonus to all allies within 15 feet for 1 round as a swift action. This use provides an AC bonus equal to two less than the amount she sacrifices. For example, if she sacrifices 4 AC, all allies within 15 feet will receive an AC bonus of +2.

Instead of mucking around with changing bonuses, just make it a flat, stackable bonus. No one in their right mind will leave it as a Deflection bonus as soon as Insight or Sacred becomes available. If you'd prefer it to stay Insight or Sacred, specify one. No need to be able to switch. One isn't inherently better than the other.
A party with a psion* or other non-PHB class is going to note the difference between Insight and Sacred.

Ditto for why they might want to keep it a Deflection bonus in some unusual cases.

Still, I could maybe see simplifying this to "can't be changed", since it doesn't impact the fluff, and the mechanical benefits only come up in weird cases.

* See Precognition, Defensive (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/precognitionDefensive.htm).

I presume you added the "max Grace Gift level" part to discourage dipping?
Correct. Grace-Gift 2/Sorcerer X is still a very attractive dip compared to the standard Sorcadin build. Sure, you lose a point of BAB compared to Paladin, plus at-will Detect Evil, but getting two feats (Improved Toughness and Skill Focus[Concentration] come to mind) a 2d12 instead of 2d10 and +3 to all saves instead of +3/+0/+0 (if not using fractional saves) is worth it at any level. At lower levels the even the +2 deflection bonus is tasty too. If you want Lay On hands for a few points a day, you just take Touch of the Grace-Gift instead. The other abilities aren't going to do you much good as a sorcerer, but at least you have them as options in case you ever need to clean and disinfect anything, prevent a very squishy NPC from getting heat-stroke, activate a spell trigger or perhaps spell completion item to revive/unparalyze/de-stone/etc the party cleric when he goes down.

[COLOR="#800080"][I]Incorporated Gift of Protection here.
Actually, I used to have it that way, until someone complained about having a Su/Sp split ability, and/or implied that clarify would be increased by splitting things appart. Until and unless there is a clear consensus among reviewers that having it as a single split-type ability is superior I'm not going to put in the effort to change it back.

Changed level of increases to follow a fluid progression of every 4 levels.
Huh? I thought I copy-pasted the progression from the monk, which should make it be fine. Or did you mean matching the levels that the options are gained to be the same as the ones where the numerical bonus increases somehow? Once again, I can see your point on such things, but I still stand firm that that is a bug, not a feature, except for in a "Lite" version.


Healing Item Use: Remove this ability. Replaced by spellcasting.
Except that, as the spell list you've given them currently stands, it does exactly the opposite of what I most strongly intended this class feature to accomplish. Now, granted, being able to spam a wand of Cure Light Wounds* is a close second, but this class feature was designed to let them handle all the weird stuff that a healbot is expected to be able to handle between battles and isn't otherwise covered by there enhanced uses of the heal skill (or when the party is in a hurry, which is a lot of the time for many campaigns). Stuff like Remove Curse, Break Enchantment, and certain uses of Dispel Magic. The GP cost rather than native casting was meant to encourage them to be preventative with their Gifts, rather than curative after the battle, since, while they are supposed to be able to do both, the preventative aspect is more core, and the healbot stuff was added later. Note however that some of the healbot stuff turned into its own flavor with them being the guys who can fight the bubonic plague sweeping through town or rescue large numbers of people from collapsed buildings better than a healbot cleric can. This was the source of the An Ounce of Prevention ability. Speaking of An Ounce of Prevention, straight up giving them Prestidigitation without the restrictions is one of the things where I start really not liking the loss of crunch/fluff linking. I'd rather create a new 0th level spell, perhaps one that works on a larger area (and thus can do more within its duration and just plain get the job done faster), rather than giving them the ability to create sparkly motes in the air for no good reason.

*Or, more likely in many games, Lesser Vigor. Actually, swapping out the lower levels of this for the equivalent Vigor spells would be a tiny step in the right direction.



NEW ABILITY - Reactive Casting: Starting at 3rd level, a Grace-Gift may cast any prepared spell with a casting time of 1 standard action or less as an immediate action 1/day. The spell must be of a level equal to or lower than the Grace-Gift's class level divided by 3, rounded down. At 8th level she may use this ability 2/day. At 14th level 3/day.
To expand on what I said before: I want to keep them sacrificial and protective during combat with the healbot stuff almost entirely reserved for after combat. Sure they get the ability to use one or two of their abilities as immediate actions at higher levels, but the only one I can think of is Gift of Shielding, which is mostly about the damage sharing, not the AC boost (I may drop the AC boost).



Gift of Resistance: At 4th level, a Grace-Gift may take a penalty to all her saving throws up to a maximum of her lowest base saving throw to provide an equal bonus to a single saving throw of her choice for all allies within 20 feet for 1 round as a swift action. When transferring the saving throw bonus in this manner, it may be dispelled on the recipient (not the Grace-Gift) as though it were a 2nd level spell cast at the Grace-Gift's caster level.

At 9th level, the Grace-Gift need only take the penalty on the save for which she is providing the bonus.

At 14th level, the Grace-Gift may take the penalty to all of her saves to provide an equal bonus to all her allies' saving throws instead of to a single saving throw.

At 19th level, the Grace-Gift may provide a bonus to a single save equal to double the penalty taken.

Changed to a flat 20 feet, split the difference. Easier to keep track of.
Keeping "the leash" as short as possible so they have to balance being in range with staying out of trouble at a low level is something I very specifically. Having the range increase as level increases was something that someone suggested early in the classes development (perhaps in the prior THREAD). I think that at higher levels, as movement speeds and areas of effect tend to increase, that the "lengthening the leash" becomes acceptable, so I went with that advice. Do you think I should reverse this and have the ranges remain the same as for when you initially get the abilities (except for the multi-target options).


Also introduced class ability at 4th level so more things are gained as you go. Changed 20th level ability to 19 as well as making some other minor modifications to simplify it.

It was at 20th level as part of their capstone. Perhaps being able to grant full-round actions is enough of a capstone, but between the two I'd prefer to allow the Melee types to get more attacks a level earlier rather than reducing the penalities that the Grace-Gift is suffering (which feels more like a capstone anyway).

Also, you just allowed them to give a +24 bonus, rather than a +12 bonus (before feats are taken into account). [S]This difference only becomes more pronounced when you take into account that the targets are probably already wearing Cloaks of Resistance +3 at the very least, making the swing AT LEAST +9 to +20. Of course, I don't know my high-level play well enough to know if +9 bonus is already large enough that anything more is past the point of diminishing returns. Wait, I forgot that by that time they aren't giving Deflection bonuses anyway, at least not normally.

It may be a useful point of reference that an 8th level spell Protection from Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromSpells.htm) provides a +8 Resistance bonus against spells and spell-like abilities. Also, I hear good things about Resistance, Greater and/or Resistance, Superior.

Then there is the fact that I'm considering creating a feat that will... well it is complicated, with several ways I could tweak it for balance, so I'm just going to give a weak and simplified version here:
"Pick one type of saving throw (Fortitude, Reflex, or Will), whenever you use Gift of Resistance to provide at least a +5 bonus to that saving throw you may reduce all bonuses provided to that type of save 4. Whenev anyone receiving at least a +1 bonus to that type of save does not automatically fail such saves on a natural 1."


Gift of Shielding: Remove this ability. Replaced by spellcasting. Additional "Reactive Magic" ability added below.

Gift of Tolerance: Remove this ability. Replaced by spellcasting.
You can mentally insert another repetition of why I don't like prepared casting for this class here...

Also, for Gift of Shielding I really like the idea of fitting it in with the "1 round duration, Sacrifice" schtick their abilities tend to have even if I didn't change the casting time to Swift (which keeps things simpler in formatting, and gives them something to do with a spare Standard action) or nerf the range (which is already Close).






TO BE CONTINUED DUE TO CHARACTER-COUNT LIMITS.

DracoDei
2014-09-13, 08:19 PM
Continued from previous post.


Carry the Burden: At first level the Grace-Gift may provide a Feather Fall effect, as the spell, for 1 round to an ally as a standard action. The ally must be within the Grace-Gift's caster level times 5 feet.
Too short of a range. This might be just a typo on your part, but if you really meant to leave Charisma out of it, then x10 or perhaps even x20 would be more appropriate than x5. This can grant up to a 60' fly speed and multitargets at higher levels. Then again I think you removed the limit with regard to times when it ISN'T the Grace-Gift's turn so that helps, especially with Feather Fall.

If this ability is renewed on the Grace-Gift's turn each round without delaying his initiative, the effect is "continuous" and the recipient will not fall. When transferring weight in this manner, it may be dispelled on the recipient (not the Grace-Gift) as though it were a 3rd level spell cast at the Grace-Gift's caster level.
Actually, there is a bit of perhaps overpowered stuff hidden in the original phrasing of this ability that you have inherited. If you use this ability at the end of your turn, and DON'T renew it at the start of your turn (perhaps using a different Gift, changing targets, or even simply allowing it to lapse before renewing it), then you can avoid most of the ill effects of increased load provided the targets all land before the end of their turns. This still allows a lot of utility out of the resulting flight or Feather Fall. For instance, the flight can still negate rough terrain penalties to movement while (usually) boosting movement speed and reducing or eliminating AoOs for moving past enemies.

I mention this because putting in a fix ("Regardless of if you renew this ability, the pre-existing weight transfer persists until the end of your turn, or you use this ability again, whichever comes first.") would increase complexity. Then again, I'm still not sure if it qualifies as a bug, or if it falls under "unintentional feature".


For each use of this ability, the Grace-Gift's load is increased in weight by the target's weight plus the weight of all items carried by the target. If this brings the Grace-Gift above their Max Load, they fall prone and are considered pinned. For each multiple of their Max Load reached through this ability beyond the first, the Grace-Gift takes 1d8 damage.
This paragraph may be better wording. I'll try to remember to check it against the original wording later.

At 3rd level the Grace-Gift may create a Levitate effect instead, as the spell.
To me, this gets confusing, especially with the duration and range since the spell contradicts the ability description.

Much more critically, it means that you control their movement, rather than they themselves, which I dislike from both a fluff and crunch perspective. There is a reason I re-wrote the spell rather than just referring to it.

As a minor nitpick you forgot to italicize Levitate. The same thing happened with Fly below.


At 5th level the Grace-Gift may affect two allies within range simultaneously. Each ally must receive the same effect.
This phrasing may be better.


At 7th level the Grace-Gift may create a Fly effect instead, as the spell.

At 9th level the Grace-Gift may affect three allies within range simultaneously. Each ally must receive the same effect.

At 11th level the Grace-Gift may enable the recipient to count as wearing one a lighter category of armor for purposes of class abilities, movement speeds, etc. For example, if used on a creature wearing medium armor, they count as wearing light armor. Armor check penalties are halved, arcane spell failure is reduced by 10%, and the maximum dexterity bonus is increased by 1. This effect can also be used on creatures carrying a medium or heavy load to reduce those penalties.
Not as useful on a rogue whose strength has been penalized heavily, but I suppose that is a reasonable sacrifice.


At 13th level the Grace-Gift may affect four allies within range simultaneously. Each ally must receive the same effect.

At 15th level the Grace-Gift may affect five allies within range simultaneously. Each ally must receive the same effect.

Think about it. With this ability you can allow a rogue to wear mithril full plate with no penalty. That's boss. Should definitely be higher level to remove armor encumbrance.
Well, there is still a -2 armor check penalty even after improving the -6 for full plate by 3 for mithril, then dividing by 2 and, finally, then rounding downwards.
This requires two things:
1.) You are using this ability every round the rogue wants to have access to full movement speed, (improved) evasion, or not suffering a -3 on all skill checks that involve any motion to use (which is almost all rogue skills), AND on attack rolls. This turns you into a bit of a one-trick pony to give an AC bonus that you could easily exceed even when using the AoE version of Gift of Protection (see below for why this is true). Granted, some of the ACP stuff can be countered if the rogue drops a feat on Medium Armor Proficiency, but rogues aren't exactly swimming in feats, even with the option to gain up to 4 bonus feats with no limits on selection in place of one or more of their 10th, 13th, 16th, or 19th special abilities.

2.) The rogue can afford mithril full plate, which means you are already pretty high level (15,400 gp more than the competing mithril chain shirt). This puts it at level 8 as a minimum in my opinion. In addition, this means that the rogue will soon/already have a 20 or higher dexterity which means that the 4 point increase in AC between chain shirt and full plate gets eaten into even after factoring the maximum dexterity bonus increases for the ability and mithril into the equation. These effects counter-balance eachother as levels continue to increase, but I'm pretty sure that the minimal AC gain, combined with the fact that it doesn't apply to touch attacks* means that this isn't an attractive option compared to some other way of spending that much GP to boost AC.

*Flat-footed isn't an Dex.-to-AC issue for a rogue past 4th level.

I suppose I might be talked into it on the basis of a Cohort, Grace-Gift dip, or Large-Race-With-LA (focused on the AoOs), but I really like the idea of being able to do this sort of thing to accelerate various classes, especially barbarians at low level. I've had a disclaimer saying these guys are probably pretty broken as cohorts for a long time now, so I think we can discount that.

The idea to extend this to the lower level stuff, rather than just Levitate and Fly came out of play-test where we needed to close a lot of distance very quickly after popping out from the closest available cover at the start of a major encounter. Their was some medium (or heavy?) armor wearer who said that he would prefer the movement rate increase to a 40' fly speed since he was going to be using the "Run" action. I was going to catch up on the following round after spending that first round on Carry the Burden and two castings of Gift of Time (+20' base movement rate)*, each on a separate target. Granted, that was a pretty unusual circumstance since "Run" isn't used much in combat so usually the fly speed is enough and the loss of multipliers doesn't matter. Let alone three(two?*) different characters in one party who all were wanting to use that same action on the same turn or otherwise being a poor choice for Carry the Burden. OTOH, if we had started out a little closer, not being able to move that first turn would have been an issue.

* Or maybe it was 1 casting of Gift of Time and I just wanted to single-move-action forward myself? I forget.


Also changed this to a standard action. Every single gift ability operates on swifts which means you can at most do one thing each round. As you said in the OOC Sundara thread, they'll hardly ever be taking standards to attack. Might as well use them.
First off, that isn't true, even without bringing the feats you haven't read yet into it. Gift of Time can't ever be used as a swift action, and Gift of Shielding in my original version defaults to a standard-action casting time... of course that second part is something I could maybe see changing, but probably not.

More importantly, in the current design philosophy you are supposed to be using your standard actions for extra movement a lot of the time to set up your AoOs*, set up flanking for an ally, or get yourself out of trouble. This is especially true when using this ability since it can often put you into medium encumberance. As for being able to do more than one thing in a round, I have feats for that.
Doubled Gifts [Grace-Gift]
You can grant your gifts somewhat more easily.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 9
Benefits: Once per round, up to 3/day, you may exchange a standard action for a swift action, however this action can ONLY be used to cast a grace-gift SLA. In no case may you use a given SLA more than once per round by virtue of this feat.


Tripled Gifts [Grace-Gift]
You can grant your gifts very easily.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 11
Benefits: Once per round, up to 3 times per day, you may exchange a move action for a swift action, however this action can ONLY be used to cast a grace-gift SLA. In no case may you use a given SLA more than once per round by virtue of this feat(even in combination with Doubled Gifts).

Also, you may use Doubled Gifts 6/day instead of 3/day, but still only once per round.
Special: A character with at least 11 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Bountiful Gifts [Grace-Gift]
Gifts flow from you like beer from a keg at a dwarven celebration.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 13
Benefits: You may use Doubled Gifts a number of times per day equal to 3+half your grace-gift level. You may use Tripled Gifts a number of times per day equal to 1+one-third your grace-gift level. Neither may be used more than once per round each.
Special: A character with at least 13 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Endless Gifts [Grace-Gift]
Gifts flow from you like water over a waterfall.
Prerequisites: Grace-Gift level 15
Benefits: You have no daily limit on the number of times you may use doubled gifts or tripled gifts.
Special: A character with at least 15 levels of grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.
I didn't think that moving them closer to Quicken Spell stuff without feat use was a good idea. They already could use a oneShield Other as a standard action (and later as a swift, then immediate action), not to mention the move-action application of Gift of Time.

*Or to stay in range for your other abilities when using the Double Gifts feat tree (see above spoiler) to trade a standard for a swift.


Swift to Protect: At 2nd level when acting in a surprise round, a Grace-Gift may take a swift action instead of the normal move or standard action.

At 12th level he may take a swift action in addition to the normal move or standard action.
Hmmm... interesting idea here. Would let them both buff and get in position for buffing or to set up the AoOs. Might also interact badly with the current wording of the GET OFF OF THEM!!! feat, but the feat could be easily fixed if that is the case. I'm mostly mentioning it so I don't forget to check if I do make this change.

Doesn't seem to be in keeping with your idea that Swift to Protect should be dropped that you present below. Do we want a Grace-Gift to be able to set up their positioning before the battle or not? Then again this rewards the party for sneaking up on enemies rather than just kicking in the door.



So when they roll initiative they get a bonus equal to their class level but the penalty is they can do anything they would normally do during combat anyway? No dice.
Umm... you may be missing the point here. Even if you are, it MIGHT not change the conclusion, only the premise.

Other buffers get to select their buffs minutes to hours before combat starts, and most can use multiple buffs at the same time (not as true for Marshals and Martial Initiators). Granted, overly complex buff routines are a gripe about the game, but a maximum of 3 buffs running at a time isn't too many.

A grace-gift has to be able to go before the enemy if they want their buffs to be in place when the enemy attacks, and like Marshals and Martial initiators has to pick a single* buff to be providing, which means that knowing what (and possibly where) the enemies are before they make their pick is a necessity. Otherwise they get rendered irrelevant for half of the first round of combat when it comes to defensive buffs.

As precedent, sword-sages, get +1 to initiative at 1st level, scaling up to +5 at 20th level. This was my inspiration for this ability. As another point, again, I was trying to keep the MAD down to Cha >> Str > Con.

Now, granted, that ability was written before I realized via playtest** that you could just be walking along spamming your choice of swift-action buff(s)* all day. This is why I'm saying that as near as I can tell your premise is flawed in my eyes, even if your conclusion may be valid. Of course, this option also defeats stealth due to the sound of the ongoing spellcasting, but that isn't really a big deal to me. I suppose the difference could be split by turning this into a feat, or even chain of feats. Quieter casting whenever you could take 10 on a normal skill check could also be a feat. Allowing quieter casting in battle would make it harder for enemies to use Spellcraft to ID which buff(s) you have up if they can't see you for some reason, but I think that is also a rather small effect.

*One at any given time (although you can change which one as circumstances change throughout the day) unless you are 15th level and have sunk 4 feats into the "Doubled/Tripled/Bountiful/Endless Gifts" line, in which case you have the option to have two buffs up at once while moving slowly (or while mounted on a normal mount), or three buffs at once when you aren't moving (including while being carried by something smart enough you don't have to direct it).

**Interesting story actually. One of the other players was playing a class call The Harrowed that channelled a "super-powered evil side", and thus had to make will saves (basically the first time it used a given set of abilities in a given combat) to avoid temporarily going crazy. I suggested he delay his initiative each combat until I'd had time to get Gift of Resistance running for will saves, but he said that wouldn't fit with the berzerker mental patient vibe he was going for. I then realized I could just keep spamming that ability. This falls under the category "obvious in hind-sight".



Defensive Strike: When making attacks of opportunity, a Grace-Gift adds his class level to his damage roll. This ability may only be used if the Grace-Gift performed no offensive action during the previous round aside from attacks of opportunity.
Are you sure that people won't think they can't ever get this bonus on the first round of combat?

Offensive actions include hostile spells, attacks, releasing attack dogs, cutting a rope bridge to cause the enemy to fall, etc. DM's discretion.

At 3rd level he adds a bonus to the attack roll equal to half his class level.
No charisma to-hit to make up for the lack of enhancement bonuses?

Actually... that makes sense at this level. They can already fairly easily afford a masterwork weapon at this level (One Ninth your WBL isn't terrible), and the to-hit bonus from masterwork doesn't stack with enhancement bonuses.

Later on, the conventional wisdom is that you don't get enhancement bonuses intrinsic to your weapon, you just have someone cast Greater Magic Weapon on it as needed.

Actually, the best option might be to say that they get an enhancement bonus to hit equal to half their charisma bonus. Full charisma bonus may be overkill, especially at higher levels. This handles the stacking with masterwork/enhancement bonuses on the weapon itself, further discouraging attempts to min-max the AoOs in ways I didn't intend. Of course, there are feats for that, and Shocking, Frost, (Un)Holy, Anarchic, Axiomatic, Viscious*, and perhaps Keen are all about equally valid choices for increasing damage for a Grace-Gift as they are for a Fighter. YMMV** on the value of the alignment aspects, but I think one of the objections to the monk's abilities is that they don't give the numerical benefits of the enhancements they mimic. This may be more applicable to the "strikes as magic weapon" aspect rather than the alignment aspects of Ki Strike, I don't remember.

*Yes, the fact that you can stack this with the class feature that imitates it is 100% intentional since it plays into the "self-sacrifice" theme very well.

**If you aren't familiar with this expression: Your Mileage May Vary -> Y.M.M.V. -> YMMV

Her attacks of opportunity using this ability are treated as magic weapons.
Ummm... Debihuman (who was or is a professional splat-book writer) would get on our cases for mixing Ex and Su abilities into a single ability description. Then again, I've heard arguments that it should all be Su anyway. I don't like the idea of an AMF turning off the to-hit and damage bonuses. I suppose I could call it (Ex/Su) and then specify in the ability description that the to-hit and damage are Ex and the rest are Su. Don't know what Debihuman's school of thought would say to that.

Huh... maybe I should have put those two on different levels if I didn't already. Spreading out bonuses to a single ability is one of the design principles I like to follow. Meh, in this case it is worth it.

I guess the -1 at odd numbered levels is worth it to keep things simpler, although it would make editing in a fix for power attack, expertise and non-Grace-Gift feats that have BAB requirements a bit harder.


At 6th level the damage bonus increases to 1.5 times his class level.

At 10th level the damage bonus increases to twice his class level. She must choose one component of her alignment. All attacks of opportunity using this ability are considered aligned per her choice. This decision may not be changed.
See above about not giving a bunch of stuff after/before a long dry period.

I really like giving more options than just an alignment, in keeping with my idea that a normal or masterwork weapon should be a reasonably good option. Thus the Ghost Touch option. Granted Viscious was just to give another option that fit with their flavor. Of course, those options were added before I had gone as nuts with the bonus feats in terms of the number I had written, and perhaps in terms of the number they get over the course of 20 levels. I suppose I could turn the non-alignment options into feats themselves...

(See also comment on your re-write of the 16th level ability.)

At 13th level her attacks of opportunity using this ability are treated as if made with an adamantine weapon.

At 16th level the damage bonus increases to 3 times his class level. Her attacks of opportunity are also considered aligned to the other part of her alignment. For example, if a Chaotic Good character chose "Good" as her 10th level choice, they are now also considered "Chaotic."
And here is the other reason I was giving additional options! A Neutral Good or Lawful Neutral Grace-Gift gets hosed here. I could always say that those two get their alignment first, and later they get Ghost Touch, but I don't want to pigeon-hole non-alignment-based abilities (such as Ghost Touch or taking damage to deal more damage) to alignment like that.




What if they move farther away from allies but only to setup for an AoE spell? Easier to just have it apply to all AoOs.
I'd really prefer not. I'd rather have the issue you describe than reduce the "defend others in preference to yourself" schtick (especially the tanking aspect when casters/ranged attackers you threaten focus on you alone) not to mention that keeping it more focused lets them retain more of their power without it being overpowered.


Life Saver: At 4th level the Grace-Gift may always Take 10 on heal checks regardless of stress or distraction. Once per day they may instead Take 20 on a heal check without increasing the required time.

Again, just simplifying it.
Well, that mostly makes disease and the secondary effects of poison a non-issue from level 1 rather than only at level 3... probably a bad idea from a balance perspective.

From a world-building perspective I like the idea that they have to get to level 3 before they can be that strong of a force against plagues.

TO BE CONTINUED LATER DUE TO REAL LIFE TIME CONCERNS.

DracoDei
2014-09-15, 06:30 PM
Carry the Burden: At first level the Grace-Gift may provide a Feather Fall effect, as the spell, for 1 round to an ally as a standard action. The ally must be within the Grace-Gift's caster level times 5 feet.
Too short of a range. This might be just a typo on your part, but if you really meant to leave Charisma out of it, then x10 or perhaps even x20 would be more appropriate than x5. This can grant up to a 60' fly speed and multitargets at higher levels. Then again I think you removed the limit with regard to times when it ISN'T the Grace-Gift's turn so that helps, especially with Feather Fall.

If this ability is renewed on the Grace-Gift's turn each round without delaying his initiative, the effect is "continuous" and the recipient will not fall. When transferring weight in this manner, it may be dispelled on the recipient (not the Grace-Gift) as though it were a 3rd level spell cast at the Grace-Gift's caster level.



For each use of this ability, the Grace-Gift's load is increased in weight by the target's weight plus the weight of all items carried by the target. If this brings the Grace-Gift above their Max Load, they fall prone and are considered pinned. For each multiple of their Max Load reached through this ability beyond the first, the Grace-Gift takes 1d8 damage.
This paragraph may be better wording. I'll try to remember to check it against the original wording later.


At 3rd level the Grace-Gift may create a Levitate effect instead, as the spell.
To me, this gets confusing, especially with the duration and range since the spell contradicts the ability description.

Much more critically, it means that you control their movement, rather than they themselves, which I dislike from both a fluff and crunch perspective. There is a reason I re-wrote the spell rather than just referring to it.

As a minor nitpick you forgot to italicize Levitate. The same thing happened with Fly below.


At 5th level the Grace-Gift may affect two allies within range simultaneously. Each ally must receive the same effect.
This phrasing may be better.



At 7th level the Grace-Gift may create a Fly effect instead, as the spell.

At 9th level the Grace-Gift may affect three allies within range simultaneously. Each ally must receive the same effect.

At 11th level the Grace-Gift may enable the recipient to count as wearing one a lighter category of armor for purposes of class abilities, movement speeds, etc. For example, if used on a creature wearing medium armor, they count as wearing light armor. Armor check penalties are halved, arcane spell failure is reduced by 10%, and the maximum dexterity bonus is increased by 1. This effect can also be used on creatures carrying a medium or heavy load to reduce those penalties.
Not as useful on a rogue whose strength has been penalized heavily, but I suppose that is a reasonable sacrifice.


At 13th level the Grace-Gift may affect four allies within range simultaneously. Each ally must receive the same effect.

At 15th level the Grace-Gift may affect five allies within range simultaneously. Each ally must receive the same effect.

Think about it. With this ability you can allow a rogue to wear mithril full plate with no penalty. That's boss. Should definitely be higher level to remove armor encumbrance.
Well, there is still a -2 armor check penalty even after improving the -6 for full plate by 3 for mithril, then dividing by 2 and, finally, then rounding downwards.


Divine Grace: [COLOR="#800080"]Fine, leave as is.

Helpful: At 2nd level a Grace-Gift may always Take 10 when using the Aid Another action (both in and out of combat). You must still be trained if using this on a Trained-Only skill.

At 6th level the bonuses from a Grace-Gift's aid another action increase to +3. At 10th level the effects last 1 round instead of for the next action. At 15th level the bonuses from a Grace-Gift's aid another action increase to +4.

Yeah... this was a pretty complicated ability, and I think what you have here might be enough to capture the feel equally well, since all it does is cut out a few hoops that you need to jump through.



Master of the Healing Ward: Fine, leave as is.

Actually, I need to fix something about this, but you had no reasonable way of knowing that.


Courage: At 3rd level a Grace-Gift becomes immune to fear.

Concern for someone's well-being is different than fear. The extra fluff text is unnecessary.
Well, if a GM wants to force a will save because the badguy is holding a gun to a hostage's head I wouldn't call that wording unnecessary in its precision but only in its rarity (since no such situation will come up in most games). Fluff is never unnecessary to me, although I suppose I could turn it into italicized fluff text, and then let the GM make the obvious call to modify the crunch based on the fluff when and if it comes up.
More still to come, but will wait for response to what I have so far first.

miinstrel
2014-09-15, 08:01 PM
One thing I forgot to ask was, now that you have read in more detail, what your general impression of the power level of the class as it currently stands (prior to any changes you might inspire) is, including the optimization floor and ceiling.

This is tough to judge without seeing it in play. My initial impression is it's too strong, but it also relies on the player being able to correctly guess his opponents' actions which can be really tough especially when facing a diverse selection of enemies. If you completely remove the bonus feats, I'm thinking it's probably a little underpowered.

As to my changes and their affect on power level, I'd say it drops it further which means it needs something else. Most other "caster" classes, including martial adepts, use spells, maneuvers, or whatever else. I still haven't read through the bonus feats, but what would you think of converting them to a new discipline of maneuvers? I think a lot of the hesitancy surrounding the class comes from the sheer number of permanent abilities (many of which come from the plethora of feats they receive). Turning some of those into rechargeable, but ultimately limited, abilities via maneuvers could be an alternative to your dislike of it being a spellcasting class? Just a thought, and one you've probably considered already. What's your take on this?


such as having three of them in the same party and having them all using AoE Gift of Protection to boost the parties ACs sky high normally).

Forutnately, bonuses from an ability of the same name don't stack (even if they're untyped), so two Grace-Gifts can't give the same gifts to their party in the same round.

I would say it is certainly stronger than a paladin, though I'm not sure where it ranks among buff bots. Would need to do some playtesting.


What about a spiked chain tripper build that incorporates Mage-Slayer (probably a Fighter)?

I'd say it's about on par with a spiked chain tripper due to the added versatility of your abilities. Tripper does more damage, but has no real utility or alternative party contributions.

Also something I just noticed on d20srd: you don't threaten any squares with a whip, you just have mega reach. Probably not a good weapon choice for this class.


How much would you say your changes alter the power levels?

I'd have to rebuild the table using my changes to see what gets added where. My first thought reading through was it was frontloaded with too many abilities, but after getting all the way through it I'm not sure. I'll think on this point and let you know.


One thing I'm almost sure of is that it is Tier 3 or maybe Tier 2.

I agree. With spellcasting or keeping your X/day version of the various spells maybe low T2 at best.


even if the FIRST thought they provoked in me was "Do not want."

That wasn't my intention and sorry if it came off that way. I like the idea of the class and how it's focused around a mechanic that doesn't get a lot of attention (AoO) except as a side benefit. Jack B Quick is probably the only build I've seen that actually focuses on them as its primary shtick. Most of my changes were focused on removing or toning down abilities because I feel like overall the class is entirely too strong and overly complicated, not because I didn't want the class or even certain abilities of the class. I get that you're looking for a complex class, but to make it appealing to anyone after just one read through, it needs to be brought down to the same level of complexity as other classes.

I don't equate complexity with flavor which is the impression I'm getting from the GG. Flavor is a result of unique abilities and how a class fits into the traditional party, what unique gifts it brings to the table and the fluff text that accompanies it. If you read through most of the class abilities in other splash books the flavor text may be a sentence or two long in italics at the beginning followed by just mechanics. I love fluff; it's part of the reason I prefer 3.5 to 4e, but my goal in reviewing the GG is to make it more mechanically balanced to encourage DMs to by more open to allowing it in their games (the attempt in Sundara is a perfect example). A DM has to be able to, at a glance, look over a class and say "no, this isn't overpowered and I trust that whatever the player does with it won't break my game." Especially with the more obscure classes, the DM may not know exactly how a PC works and they need to be able to figure it out QUICKLY. That's a weakness of complexity IMO.

I'm fairly blunt in general, but particularly when making "scientific" critiques, so please don't take anything I say as an attack (doesn't sound like you will) but rather as purely constructive criticism.


One specific, non-flavor, thing that came up a lot in this response is that you reduced the number of levels that certain abilities increment at by combining different effects. For instance range and intensity, or numerical strength and typing (such as aligned AoOs). This goes against a design principle of mine to generally keep things smooth when possible. This is somewhat related to the idea of avoiding "dead levels", but at a more fine-grained level.

Honestly, in this first review I wasn't focused on avoiding dead levels; I dislike them probably about as much as you do. Most abilities I can currently recall that scale as you level do so in even increments. That was my sole reason for adjusting the levels you get certain things. I'll need to build a table as per my revisions to see if anything seems wonky.


with the Raise Dead line being balanced by the Constitution Burn

Technical point: there is no "burn" in 3.5 to my knowledge. There's ability damage and ability drain, the latter being 'permanent' until you receive a Restoration or better. Just so we're clear on what you mean.


Removing the Bonus Feats or at least making them static.

One random thought on bonus feats I just had: Rather than having different "tables" (Bonus Feat I through IX or whatever it is), just limit them by Grace-Gift level. One less level of organization needed.


Gift of Resistance could start of penalizing only the save being boosted, with the ability to boost multiple saves at once coming at a much earlier level. 1/2 penalties might come earlier too.

This could be good depending on the "smooth leveling" you mentioned earlier.


If Gift of Shielding is retained, then perhaps it could be swift action with "Original target takes 1/4 damage, you take 1/2" so that 1/4 of the damage is prevented, and also it makes it an even stronger defense for a squishy caster.

I think there's an ability in some feat or other class that does this too. Don't want to send you on a wild goose chase, but could be good to find that for a level comparison of when it's given.


Perhaps make it so that, rather than swift action casting, you can turn on, turn off, or reassign a given Gift (except for Gift of Time) as a standard action. This means you can have more buffs running at once, which is, by default, a power increase.

Yes. Though rather than leaving it that open, maybe increase the duration of the gifts to 1/2 CL rounds, minimum 1? I'd also add a stipulation that giving a gift to someone dispels it on all previous recipients unless you can have multiple ones out like with Carry the Burden. Using the mass versions do the same thing.


It is actually part of my design philosophy to almost never sacrifice fidelity to the flavor for the sake of simplicity. OTOH I'm always looking for help with how to write more clearly while remaining true to the fluff concepts.

We have different design philosophies :P. Simplicity is key or the majority of people won't want to play it. However, over simplify (I'm looking at you 4e!) and no one wants to play it either haha. I think your fluff is perfectly clear.


The first two sentences here end up being a misleading statement, since the number of choices on the list you wrote up there is remarkably small, especially once you strip out the stuff you added that I very specifically don't want them to have.

Sorry, I hadn't intended for that to look like the complete spell list. It was just a list of spells mentioned in abilities that I'd removed. I would add significantly more to it. But we're avoiding the spellcasting component, so no point pursuing this :)


This runs into problems, both with having a specific list that can't be extended to homebrew.

The list can always be amended as you discover new spells that would work well. Any DM can consider new spells and add them to any given class list at their discretion either at their own discretion or at the request of the player. No need to make a comment specifically allowing the list to be modified.


In all things, compare to core classes for simplicity of phrasing and effects.

Yeah, you are going to have to explain that one to me a bit more. This is "obscure splat-book" material here, hopefully we can make it "ToB or better" levels of flavor (and even better than that in terms of a unique feel to play), rather than something that was relegated to justified obscurity due to its unreadability* and/or poor balance.

I just meant, for example, you have a Code of Conduct similar to a paladin's. The phrasing and description should be as close to the paladin's CoC as possible. It's familiar to the reader making it more easily understood. In no way did I mean it had to completely eliminate the uniqueness of the class and its abilities. ToB is actually my target for this class too, and as I've been writing these responses I'm wondering if the "feats" could be turned into maneuvers. Or is that too near spellcasting for what you're envisioning?

And yes, everything is all technically complete (at least what I've read so far). I'll let you know if I find any incomplete thoughts (I've been writing this response over the course of the last day so the same might happen to me).


Skill-point reduction COULD make sense, although, as I said in the Sundara OOC thread, it is to help with MAD that I increased it to 6+Int in the first place after some play-test and resulting discussion.

Your explanation makes sense, and I'll agree that's a weakness that could be rectified. Keep at 6+. Also, keep Use Rope. With the net and the whip both on their wep list this does make sense.


Code of Conduct: No reason they would ever pick "Both".

So an LG grace-gift is only dedicated to a single alignment component? I could get on board with that line of reasoning. I do think they should have the option of choosing both though if they want. Updated description of Code of Conduct:

Upon entering the class, the character must dedicate themselves to either Good, Law, or both. This decision cannot later be changed. A Grace-Gift that selects only a single alignment dedication may be of any alignment on the opposing axis (For example, a "Good" dedicated character may be Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic and may change between the three).


Perhaps they could retain the ability to transfer bonuses (at least after they return to an acceptable alignment), but they just never get said bonuses in the first place.

On saves and transferring, i see BAB and saves as a measure of actual experience, not a divine gift. They would of course lose the Divine Grace bonus to saves, but the naturally high saves remain. The paladin doesn't lose base saves or anything when they fall, why should the GG?


Anyway, how would this grab you?
"all simple melee weapons (but only for melee attacks) plus the net, sap, and bolas"
The parenthetical part could be dropped for simplicity if absolutely necessary, since throwing a club or (short) spear isn't much of a thing, especially when it turns off a fairly nice class feature.

I think that sounds fine.

Also on the insane reach with the whip and what not, I don't think many DMs will allow that sort of reach in the first place as it completely breaks immersion. For some reason throwing fireballs is fine, but using a weapon to hit something 50 feet away isn't. If it's the kind of game where that's okay, then the whip will be fine. If it isn't, the DM just won't allow all the reach stacking stuff to be used.


Actually... there may be a bit of munchkinry there that might merit an anti-munchkin tweak... +1 shocking net. Seems to me you are now doing 1d6 electricity damage on the initial touch attack hit. Ok, so maybe not TOO bad so far, except that now you get to add your level-based damage bonuses.

I wouldn't allow the level damage bonus to come into effect because the damage bonus is presumed to be physical (the same type the weapon deals) while the electricity is elemental. Not sure if there's a rule supporting that, but it's how I would adjudicate it.


Wanted to keep them to light armor. If I change them back to unarmored, the need for Spell Failure effecting their abilities despite the Divine nature only becomes stronger

I guess my beef with divine spell failure (hereafter DSF) is its complete contradiction to every other 3.5 source, which may be a bit narrow-minded of me but is really one of the core understandings of spell casting. I think the question I'm getting at is this: are the GG's abilities a gift from the gods (in which case spell failure in armor shouldn't matter because the god's are directly giving this power to him) or are they manifestations of personal focus, a mundane dedication to protecting others, and sheer willpower (in which case spell failure could very likely come into play). If it's the latter this would seem closer to a monk which would get no armor proficiencies at all and lose abilities when wearing armor. If it's the former, then no losing abilities because of armor.

I feel like this is going to be one of our biggest disagreements about the class and if we're not able to persuade the other on the subject after a couple more volleys we should probably just drop it :P.


IUS in and of itself is not a very good feat, however it does serve as a prerequisite for a lot of other feats, PrCs, etc. As such this may be a bad idea, especially in the case of dips.

It can likewise be picked up by dipping Monk 1, so it's not opening the system up to extra abuse. I think it should be kept separate from Defensive Strike as they're two completely different abilities.


Divine Protection
Specifying that the bonus is a deflection bonus is important to keep stacking under control so their base-line AC doesn't get too huge. I believe that the Sundara OOC thread supports the idea that the AC might be a bit high*. Secondarily the same argument can be made for the AC of a protected character, especially at mid-levels. In fact, I've had suggestions that it should ALWAYS be a deflection bonus and never anything else in order to keep the total ACs more under control.

*As I said over there, I wouldn't be opposed in principle to turning this back into an unarmored class. It started out that way, but I was told that they would need at least light armor in order to make Gift of Protection viable. Naturally, if I do that, I would be much less open to dropping them to d10 for hitdice, which is also something I could perhaps be talked into. Between the two I really prefer the d12 and unarmored option.

Agreed. In that case I would set it as Deflection and leave it instead of having it changeable. Avoids stacking and keeps it simple. I like d12 and unarmed more as well.


the mechanical benefits only come up in weird cases.

Precisely. Can't plan for everything. If it can't benefit from a few specific options that's fine.


If you want Lay On hands for a few points a day, you just take Touch of the Grace-Gift instead.

I take issue with giving whole class abilities as feats. I think that's cherry picking a bit too much. I understand TotGG and it's thematically appropriate, but too powerful for a single feat. Maybe the end of a 3-4 feat chain. Though again, I get that you're trying to give a wide variety of class abilities and letting the player pick what they want to spec into.


Actually, I used to have it that way, until someone complained about having a Su/Sp split ability, and/or implied that clarify would be increased by splitting things appart. Until and unless there is a clear consensus among reviewers that having it as a single split-type ability is superior I'm not going to put in the effort to change it back.

I can appreciate that. Why do they have to be different? Why not just make them both Su? The durations are so short that dispelling them would be a waste of an action on the enemy's part anyway. Was the concern that if it were Su it wouldn't be dispellable?


Huh? I thought I copy-pasted the progression from the monk, which should make it be fine. Or did you mean matching the levels that the options are gained to be the same as the ones where the numerical bonus increases somehow?

Sorry, I meant the progression of what you currently have listed as "Gift of Protection," not the extra AC progression. I changed when they get the ability to transfer AC to allies and what not. That wasn't very clear, my bad.


Healing Item Use
The GP cost rather than native casting was meant to encourage them to be preventative with their Gifts, rather than curative after the battle, since, while they are supposed to be able to do both, the preventative aspect is more core, and the healbot stuff was added later.

Gotcha. In that case let me propose a simplified description of the ability:

A Grace-Gift may use items as though he were a cleric of the same level as long as the spell has the [harmless] descriptor in its saving throw entry.

This encompasses the vigor line, neutralize poison, regeneration, etc. and all (i think) of the other misc. healbot spells. No need to add additional mechanics for concentration etc.


Speaking of An Ounce of Prevention, straight up giving them Prestidigitation without the restrictions is one of the things where I start really not liking the loss of crunch/fluff linking. I'd rather create a new 0th level spell, perhaps one that works on a larger area (and thus can do more within its duration and just plain get the job done faster), rather than giving them the ability to create sparkly motes in the air for no good reason.

I get that. Totally out of flavor for the class. I would recommend creating a new spell that encompasses what you want rather than specifying a particular use of a rather broad existing spell. Simpler.


Gift of Resistance
Keeping "the leash" as short as possible so they have to balance being in range with staying out of trouble at a low level is something I very specifically. Having the range increase as level increases was something that someone suggested early in the classes development (perhaps in the prior THREAD). I think that at higher levels, as movement speeds and areas of effect tend to increase, that the "lengthening the leash" becomes acceptable, so I went with that advice. Do you think I should reverse this and have the ranges remain the same as for when you initially get the abilities (except for the multi-target options).

At present the leash doesn't lengthen. It's within 10 feet or within 30 feet for half the effect. I'd be okay with starting at 10 and increasing range as you advance as many of the other abilities have, but not also the "half the effect if farther away" part. Adds one more odd thing people have to keep track of. I guess I'm really just "pick a distance" than I am picky about what that distance is. :smallsmile:


It was at 20th level as part of their capstone. Perhaps being able to grant full-round actions is enough of a capstone, but between the two I'd prefer to allow the Melee types to get more attacks a level earlier rather than reducing the penalities that the Grace-Gift is suffering (which feels more like a capstone anyway).

HA! Completely unintentional. Though with your current description it goes:
1. Take a penalty up to your base saves.
2. provide a bonus equal to the penalty taken.
3. take half the penalty you selected.

I found that a bit confusing personally. Perhaps keeping my wording but amended as follows:

At 4th level, a Grace-Gift may give a bonus of up to her lowest base saving throw to the saving throw of an ally within 20 feet for 1 round as a swift action. The Grace-Gift takes a penalty equal to this bonus on all of her saving throws. When transferring the saving throw bonus in this manner, it may be dispelled on the recipient (not the Grace-Gift) as though it were a 2nd level spell cast at the Grace-Gift's caster level.

At 9th level, the Grace-Gift need only take the penalty on the save for which she is providing the bonus.

At 14th level, the Grace-Gift may provide the bonus to all saves made by her allies within 20 feet for 1 round. She takes an equal penalty to each of her saves.

At 19th level, the Grace-Gift takes a penalty equal to only half of the bonus given (rounded up).

Same effect, just reworded it to mention the bonus first and then the penalty. I think this works well and solves that +24 bonus problem :P.


Carry the Burden
Too short of a range.

You're right. What if you change it to "Close range (25+5 feet/2 levels)"? Fits a pre-existing range and makes it less potentially ridiculous than its current range.


Actually, there is a bit of perhaps overpowered stuff hidden in the original phrasing of this ability that you have inherited. If you use this ability at the end of your turn, and DON'T renew it at the start of your turn (perhaps using a different Gift, changing targets, or even simply allowing it to lapse before renewing it), then you can avoid most of the ill effects of increased load provided the targets all land before the end of their turns. This still allows a lot of utility out of the resulting flight or Feather Fall. For instance, the flight can still negate rough terrain penalties to movement while (usually) boosting movement speed and reducing or eliminating AoOs for moving past enemies.

Hmm, you're right. It would interpret that as a bug since you don't really take any penalty. Here's a thought that could apply to all of the gifts and transferences: The penalty applies for 2 rounds while the buff to your allies only lasts for 1? Not sure if it would be reasonable, just popped into my head and figured I'd shoot it out for examination.


(referencing levitate) To me, this gets confusing, especially with the duration and range since the spell contradicts the ability description.

Much more critically, it means that you control their movement, rather than they themselves, which I dislike from both a fluff and crunch perspective. There is a reason I re-wrote the spell rather than just referring to it.

That makes sense. Agreed.


Well, there is still a -2 armor check penalty even after improving the -6 for full plate by 3 for mithril, then dividing by 2 and, finally, then rounding downwards. This requires two things:

Good point. And that eliminates your ability to do anything else. Retract the bit about changing the lighter armor stuff. Neat ability overall, quite unique.


Other buffers get to select their buffs minutes to hours before combat starts, and most can use multiple buffs at the same time (not as true for Marshals and Martial Initiators). Granted, overly complex buff routines are a gripe about the game, but a maximum of 3 buffs running at a time isn't too many.

A grace-gift has to be able to go before the enemy if they want their buffs to be in place when the enemy attacks, and like Marshals and Martial initiators has to pick a single* buff to be providing, which means that knowing what (and possibly where) the enemies are before they make their pick is a necessity. Otherwise they get rendered irrelevant for half of the first round of combat when it comes to defensive buffs.

As precedent, sword-sages, get +1 to initiative at 1st level, scaling up to +5 at 20th level. This was my inspiration for this ability. As another point, again, I was trying to keep the MAD down to Cha >> Str > Con.

I get that, but you're basically giving them an automatic go first which is unacceptable in my mind. A wizard with a fireball isn't very effective if the bad guys go first and spread out. An archer isn't effect if the bad guys go first and cast Protection From Arrows or a melee guy being screwed by an Ironguard spell. Or a charger having the enemy close too quickly. Each class can be hurt by not going first in a combat. Maybe ditch the swift and move action part of my fix for a slower initiative progression akin to the swordsage's?


Defensive Strike
Are you sure that people won't think they can't ever get this bonus on the first round of combat?

Good point. That should be mentioned at the end of the description, "this restriction doesn't apply during the first round of combat" or something.


**If you aren't familiar with this expression: Your Mileage May Anarchicary -> Y.M.M.V. -> YMMV

Anarchicary, huh? Hah jk :P I actually just learned the phrase a few months ago.


I really like giving more options than just an alignment, in keeping with my idea that a normal or masterwork weapon should be a reasonably good option.

I think we just differ in this regard. I feel like the alignment component is the only appropriate choice given the flavor of the class. I totally see where you're coming from, I just disagree with the final result.


And here is the other reason I was giving additional options! A Neutral Good or Lawful Neutral Grace-Gift gets hosed here. I could always say that those two get their alignment first, and later they get Ghost Touch, but I don't want to pigeon-hole non-alignment-based abilities (such as Ghost Touch or taking damage to deal more damage) to alignment like that.

I think that's just a tough break of being neutral. Though as I'm re-reading this, if they chose "Good" for their Code of Conduct, it doesn't make sense to give them axiomatic or anarchic as an ability since they're not devoted to that alignment axis.

Hmm... maybe ghost touch is a better choice after all. Alignment component at 10 and ghost touch at 16? That sounds like a good idea to me.


I'd rather have the issue you describe than reduce the "defend others in preference to yourself" schtick (especially the tanking aspect when casters/ranged attackers you threaten focus on you alone) not to mention that keeping it more focused lets them retain more of their power without it being overpowered.

I argue simplicity yet again (a recurring theme). It's very difficult to understand which AoOs qualify from the current description (not sure if that's a fault of the description or of the complexity). Double negatives galore. Under my current understanding:

If someone you're in melee with readies an action to charge one of your allies on your turn, you don't get the damage bonus because it's a readied action. What about AoE spells that don't target your allies but affect them (fireball)? By RAW you don't get the bonus. This should be addressed one way or the other.


Helpful
Yeah... this was a pretty complicated ability, and I think what you have here might be enough to capture the feel equally well, since all it does is cut out a few hoops that you need to jump through.

I get what you were trying to do. Having separate modifiers for skill checks and combat is a good idea, but is yet another progression they have to keep track of.


Courage
Well, if a GM wants to force a will save because the badguy is holding a gun to a hostage's head I wouldn't call that wording unnecessary in its precision but only in its rarity (since no such situation will come up in most games). Fluff is never unnecessary to me, although I suppose I could turn it into italicized fluff text, and then let the GM make the obvious call to modify the crunch based on the fluff when and if it comes up.

In game there's no "fear effect" for torturing people though. Looking at it from a strictly mechanical perspective, it's an effect applied via certain spells, racial abilities, and class abilities. There's no way to become afraid (shaken, frightened, or panicked) because of something happening to someone else's character... at least not to my knowledge.

DracoDei
2014-09-16, 10:02 AM
Two quick things:
1.)
Burn is a thing. It is in the psionics section of the SRD, so it is obscure. I don't think most people have heard of it, but it is a thing. It is basically damage that can only be healed by natural methods. No magic, psionics, etc etc. I'd link you, but you now know everything there is to know about it, except what exactly it was invented to do, which I don't really recall or care.

2.)
Touch of the Grace Gift STINKS compared to Lay On Hands in several key ways, and the way that it is better is exactly as it should be given the relative roles of a paladin and a Grace-Gift. The fact that I made it a feat instead of a level 1 class feature of a Grace-Gift was a concession to it not being totally, 100%, absolutely central to the Grace-Gift's role.

How Lay on Hands is better:
A.) It can hurt undead as a touch attack. Somewhat useful against undead enemies with high AC, but reasonable touch AC, or ones with big DR that the paladin can't overcome.
B.) It can be spent all at once, making it useful for in-combat healing... or rather as useful as that ever gets short of spells with Heal in their names.

How TotGG is better, and that is exactly the way it should be:
More points per day. Granted it is a FULL ROUND action to heal half your class level (minimum 1), so it is almost entirely ONLY useful for out of combat healing. Which is something that not only no party should be without, but especially a party that has a Grace-Gift instead of a Cleric. Granted it isn't quite as much as a cleric (well, until you take the advanced version that removes the per-day cap), but that is just fine, since that encourages the Grace-Gift to do his best with his other abilities to conserve this. The low per-round amount also discourages the Vancian casters from using all their buffs at once. Anything that keeps the 5-minute work-day in check is a good thing. Of course, it could be argued that it means they end the "work day" after fewer fights.

Anyway, the central point here is that no party should denied out of combat healing, so making it pretty easy to get isn't a bad thing. If you havee a cleric in the party, maybe you don't take that feat. If you are the party heal-bot, you either Healing Item Use a Wand of Lesser Vigor or take this feat.

Paladin: Striker, MINOR Healer
Grace-Gift: Defender, Enough of a Healer to mostly keep the party up and running on their own.

I'm basically completely convinced here...

miinstrel
2014-09-16, 10:32 AM
1. I don't play with psionics very often, so always learning new things about them. Thanks for the info.

2. I can buy that, and I agree with healing needing to be more widespread (I often auto-maximize healing out of combat in my RL games for the same reason). A lot of these critiques, I'm finding as we do this, are based on what I perceive as balancing the class against existing mores and classes in the system despite their flaws. No reason we can't improve those flaws in the process of making a new class!

DracoDei
2014-09-18, 12:38 AM
A few more notes to make measured progress (We may or may not work our way around to getting back to the rest of your initial response in the coming days/weeks).

I think it was in my DMG or PHB where I read something about how saving throws can very much be fluffed as coming from a god looking after the character (in the case of divine characters for the most part). In any case, it is very much my intention that a Grace Gift's saves are a form of divine blessing. Perhaps not "Pelor personally looks after me" precisely so much as "Pelor has tapped my soul into a well of divine energy. The same means that allow a cleric to prepare his spells shield me from harm. Naturally, the ability to send this energy away to protect others is the true purpose of this blessing."

Noted about Gift of Resistance. I created it based around a Paladin's Aura of Courage, which is 10 feet. Then I realized "So... you have to all clump together so the Fireball can EASILY hit all of you in order to get the reflex save bonus? Nah, bad idea.". So I added the 30' version. Perhaps static 20' and a feat or two to increase the radius would be in order.

As for manuever based stuff... a lot of the feats just tag additional effects onto pre-existing mechanics or are just "bigger numbers". One feat gives you +1 to all saves and lets you give away that bonus and the bonus from divine grace as if their were part of your base saves. It would feel a bit odd to me to turn that into something with a recharge mechanic. OTOH, the thing that lets you remove the [Ethereal] subtype or quality from something when you AoO them if they fail a will save? That could MAYBE become something with a recharge mechanic. I sorta feel like if you are going to be taking a feat JUST to do that then you should be able to use it as often as it comes up, rather than only 1 or 2 rounds out of the 5-10% of battles where it will come up (unless the campaign revolves around entire armies of ghosts ravaging the land). I've heard that good feats are ones that add options, rather than "bigger numbers". In the Grace-Gift's case, the basic abilities that the "bigger numbers" feats power up are unique enough that I don't feel guilty about creating such feats.

This isn't to say that there aren't "trap" feats. The one that lets you boost saves against disease within a 100 foot radius comes to mind. The trick with a lot of those is that they are for world-building flavor. NPCs are supposed to take those. That way you can have the noble grace-gift who is the rock against which the tide of The Black Death dashes itself, even as he is nearly dead as the disease gnaws away at his own body. Or the native guide who provides a cool journey through the sweltering jungle to his premium clients thanks to the feat that let's him quadruple the number of targets for Endure Elements for each point of constitution penalty he takes.

miinstrel
2014-09-19, 08:27 PM
That all makes sense, and you're right; for such minor-ish, case-specific benefits a feat is entirely justified. I guess I need to look at them like VoP feats since they're thematic and minor boons to abilities for (more or less) situational use.

Still haven't read through them... am sort of intimidated by it (which in and of itself could be something to review). Look forward to the continued conversation :)

DracoDei
2014-09-19, 10:30 PM
Would it help if I went through them and called out which ones I consider "The Cream of the Crop" and the reasons why in each case?

DracoDei
2014-09-23, 07:32 AM
Ok, I've been thinking about Swift to Protect.

It accomplishes two things.

The first is to discourage attacking except via Defensive Strike. Sure getting your AoO bonuses turned off hurts, but when it is just a single extra point of damage, it hurts a lot less.

The second is more important, and was the original design goal: compared to another buff-bot full-caster it can have about as many RELEVANT buffs up at the beginning of combat. So, walking along spamming a swift-action buff is probably good enough at low levels, no need for a huge initiative bonus. In fact, no need for any initiative bonus at first level necessarily. But I'm thinking that somewhere around 4th to 8th level, it starts to become an issue.

What would you say to keeping the bonus still equal to class level, but pushing the level you actually get the ability up? Or maybe pick a level a few before it starts to be an issue and make the bonus (level+1)-X, where X is the level you get the bonus at? If the transition between "Not needed" and "Needed" is sudden we could go with the same thing but have a floor on it of half or full charisma bonus.

Amechra
2014-09-23, 11:58 AM
I love how the "simplified" version is still pretty complex. I'm pretty sure you need a special kind of player to actually play the class in the first place.

More to the point: would you mind if I gave an attempt at the Grace Gift Lite? A lot of simplification can be done by simply moving stuff off the table and hiding them in a subsystem, after all.

I bet you I can cut the total length of the Grace Gift as a class to a fraction of the current length. Because as written, the Grace Gift is a full-out novella, whereas it should be a short story with a long appendix.

DracoDei
2014-09-23, 05:01 PM
I love how the "simplified" version is still pretty complex. I'm pretty sure you need a special kind of player to actually play the class in the first place.
Well, as it currently stands that is true for two reasons and I hope you are cogncent of BOTH of them.

The first is "beyond walls of text, into an entire fortress of verbage". This you know.

The second thing is that the entire theme is very specialized. A class that is all about playing defense, and only does any harm to the enemy via AoOs? Very un-Hackmaster is one way of putting it. As I've said before "The Wind S.C.R.A.M. Jet beneath the parties wings" is another (although if you feel it needs toning down on the power level, feel free).


More to the point: would you mind if I gave an attempt at the Grace Gift Lite? A lot of simplification can be done by simply moving stuff off the table and hiding them in a subsystem, after all.

I bet you I can cut the total length of the Grace Gift as a class to a fraction of the current length. Because as written, the Grace Gift is a full-out novella, whereas it should be a short story with a long appendix.

I don't object at all. How much to put on the table has been a big question I've had for a long time, thus the auxillery tables. I will be very impressed and thankful if you can pull it off. The variation from "Nice" to "Amazing" depends on how much of the flavor and (secondarily) underlying mechanics you manage to keep.

One thing I will say is that I don't think that limiting options is a good thing, despite how specialized the sort of player is who would want to play it. Better to do that though if you have to than loose the flavor (including the flavorful abilities such as An Ounce of Prevention).

Amechra
2014-09-23, 05:21 PM
Subsystem will probably be more like Incarnum, where you have access to all the bits, but only a limited number at a time. Helps keep people not overwhelmed.

DracoDei
2014-09-23, 10:02 PM
Subsystem will probably be more like Incarnum, where you have access to all the bits, but only a limited number at a time. Helps keep people not overwhelmed.
I guess that could help with both simplicity and reducing power level (which I don't really know if it is necessary, but it is worth a try I guess). I originally designed it on the assumption that the sacrifice would be the main balance point. Do you think I was mistaken in that assumption?

Of course, it might, for instance, just bring it down from the upper end of the range that most people would feel comfortable with (if they really understood it) to the lower end of that range in which case there it isn't really a binary question.

DracoDei
2014-10-16, 02:21 PM
I continue to work on this from time to time, so I'm bumping.

The most recent change is that I removed the AC bonus from Gift of Shielding, and clarified/nerfed that the platinum rings only limit damage prevented, not damage taken by the Grace-Gift.

EDIT: How are you two coming along with those Lite versions?

DracoDei
2014-10-25, 09:34 PM
I've made it so that the bonuses from Defensive Strike don't stack with enhancements on the weapon itself. This should keep GMs from worrying about Grace-Gifts blowing half their WBL on a magic weapon and trying to pretend they are a fighter.

I also got around to removing the clause about AoOs during the Grace-Gift's own turn. It really was an unnecessary precaution.


Post-dump from another thread, trying to keep everything more consolidated:

Very well, I do have other options. For the sake of completeness/accuracy I'm going to list out some stuff though...

Who said anything about tripping necessarily?

Straight-up damage, or Stand Still were also options. In fact, the way the class is designed you need to use a feat on tripping. That might not be true in PF, but I certainly wasn't going to be going for that.

Also, the AoO for standing up is NOT on the list of things that triggers [Enhanced] Defensive Strike.

...Oh, wait, you probably just meant that that was all that was left after the reach thing was nixed by the change to PF, right?

Ok, here is the thing. A lot of people have told me that, and I still can't bring myself to trust it, because when I give them my counter-argument I don't think I've ever gotten a well-crafted response (I hope I'm not forgetting something).

In brief:
Sure most of it scales off charisma (or nothing at all), but Carry the Burden is also a strong ability and it relies on strength as well (AND Charisma for the range). Losing movement hurts a lot of the time, because you have to rush around the battlefield from one ally to another because I intentionally made the ranges of most of the abilities pretty short.

Gift of Breath is tied to constitution. So are Gift of Tolerance and Gift of Life, but I doubt either of those would get used much.

I can think of plenty of what I consider to be a sufficient number of magic items a Grace-Gift could use
Flight, strength/charisma/dexterity boosting, tactical teleportation, Greatreach Bracers, enlargement, speed enhancement, rerolls (such as from the Chronocharms from MIC), Natural Armor, Deflection (for when I give my class-based deflection away), Resistance (similar), healbot items(except that is more for the party than for me personally), etc etc etc


...or was that not the problem?

I'm confused.

What does that have to do with magical items and bonuses?

Huh?

They are supposed to sub in for a cleric. They get a few SLAs of under-used cleric spells, and the ability to use cleric scrolls, wands, etc.

Or were you trying to say that their ability to approximate Expeditious Retreat, Haste, Fly, and (eventually) Foresight was "outside class"? Its a nice list, but the one thing it ISN'T is a very long one. Also, most of them can be accessed through domains (unless that changed in PF).



Draco, I can't express how happy and honored I am that you want to be in one of my games and I am very eager to have you. That said, I don't like the class you've presented. For starters, AoO trip builds are much less effective in Pathfinder (Spiked Chain (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/chain-spiked) doesn't have Reach in Pathfinder). The second thing is that, despite your class being very focused on assisting your allies, it is very SAD. While this is not necessarily a problem gameplay wise, it does absolutely limit my ability as a DM to reward your character with magical items and bonuses, especially considering that most of your feats come from a list you have created yourself and your character has access to a large amount of spellcasting from outside his class.

That said, I would really like it if you played with me, and if you want to suggest another homebrew class that's a bit less SAD and complex, I'd be happy to look it over. :smallsmile:


That's what I meant, yes. Your class has lots of abilities to help others but in order to do spiked chain AoO builds effectively you'll have to be in melee range most of the time and the damage you'll be taking there is not something easily compensated by the class.
What do you think the d12 hd and Charisma + (1/5 class level) + Light armor is for?

In practice, I've never had an encounter where my players were more than 20 feet apart for most of the fight. Maybe you've played games like that, but that's not how I run my games. Move speed is not something I aim to penalize because Small races have it hard enough.
Interesting!


You've listed a bunch of static bonuses and defensive options made to shore up the weaknesses of your class, rather than items that would highlight your class's strengths and make the abilities already in the class feel better.
Ummm... those are the same thing in this case really.

Shoring up their weaknesses usually IS increasing their strengths because they only really HAVE the weaknesses that matter (for instance, "lack of offense" doesn't count), when they are using there spells. [Much Later EDIT]At least I think so. Am I mistaken?[/Much Later EDIT]

That's a problem with lots of homebrew classes, without gear specifically tailored to them written by the designer, they are hard to reward effectively because most of their intended power is put into the class. In other words, it removes the DM's ability to accelerate or slow down the class's power level based on the player's effective mastery (If you're playing a fighter and struggling, I can give you a +5 weapon. If you're playing a wizard and you're acing every fight, I can just not give you gear period and that will hurt your progression, but not your effectiveness).
The idea that a GM should compensate for varying levels of skill between members of a play group isn't something I'm in favor of, but whichever. Probably not what you meant anyway.




I homebrew a lot of the gear I give my players and sometimes it interacts with their feats or progresses their chain. I am very inventive with the way that I reward my players but if your character has all these feats they need to take and they don't really benefit from other standard feats (which is typical of a class that has low enemy interaction, like yours) then it's more difficult for me to give you anything other than feats and items that make you a wall of healing and buffs.
The entire point of the class is to be a wall of healing and buffs... unless I am misunderstanding your terminology?

Also going to throw in something here to clear out my in-box a bit.







How are things going in the game where you are playing a Grace-Gift? I am assuming there has at least been a second session?

There has been a second and a third. Currently things are going a bit slow action-wise, because we have a narrative-oriented DM. So far the most I've used my powers for are bolstering an ally as a shadow-monster approached him (it left soon after, without a fight). I also am tough enough that I jumped off a cliff and healed myself up as opposed to trying to climb down.
How did you bolster the ally?

And were you in a hurry to get down the cliff, or was the DC so high it wasn't even worth it to try?

"Defense Mode Engage" - Gift of Deflection, Gift of Shielding, Gift of Resistance: Will Save.

I didn't have the skill points to spare to put any ranks in Climb, and lacking other ways down, a heroic tumble seemed like the simplest solution. That reminds me, I had a lot of problems deciding where to put my Skill Points. It's within reason, I think, but I certainly wouldn't mind if I had another 2 points/level. Given the skill selection, they aren't going to replace the skill monkey, even with 6+Int.
Forgot to say this earlier: Thank you very much for your continued assistance.

*Scratches Head*You are playing that you can trade in a standard or move action for a swift?

Assistance: Of course. I know as well as anyone that proper playtest feedback is hard to come by.

Actions: I thought you could do that..? I could be wrong, Swift Actions never really came up much in my prior games. I suppose I ought to look that up.

-Insert dramatic googling montage here-

Huh, lookit that. Good to know for future sessions - Thanks for spiking that out to me. I don't know where I got the idea you could trade Standard/Move actions for Swift.

DracoDei
2014-11-06, 03:53 PM
Added some feats, not sure if they are underpowered or not.

Grant Mystic Strength [Grace-gift]
You have a measure of the power of your less self-sacrificial comrades.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 1, must worship as a cleric not devoted to an abstract concept (usually meaning a single god)
Benefits: You may bolster and dispel turning of undead and deathless as a cleric of your level. This makes no distinction regarding alignment. Thus a good-aligned Grace-Gift could bolster a ghost as they seek to stop the cleric of Hextor who slew the fellow before he can lay waste to the home town that the now-ghost was on his way to warn when he was killed, and an evil grace-gift infiltrating an adventuring party in hopes of slowly corrupting them over the course of years could dispel the turning of the Deathless sorcerer among their number.

These "turning" attempts may power feats, class abilities, prestige classes, etc just as if they were turning/rebuking uses of the creature type they apply to, with the exception that all costs in daily uses (such as for divine metamagic) are doubled except for feats with the [Grace-Gift] tag.

This feat does not grant the ability to turn, destroy, rebuke, or command any creature.

In all other regards this functions just as if they were turning/rebuking uses of the creature type they apply to. This includes, but is not limited to, benefiting from feats (such as Extra Turning), and qualifying for feats, prestige classes, and skill tricks.
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.


Turn Away Harm[Grace-gift]
You can cause some threats to stand back.
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 1, Grant Mystic Strength, must worship as a cleric not devoted to an abstract concept (usually meaning a single god)
Benefits: Your daily uses of Grant Mystic Strength may also be used to turn, but never destroy, rebuke, or command, undead or deathless as a cleric of your alignment who worships whatever it is that you worship.
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats. See below for synergy with the Grant Strength to All feat.


Grant Strength to All[Grace-gift]
You can protect a broader range of allies
Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 1, Grant Mystic Strength, must worship as a cleric not devoted to an abstract concept (usually meaning a single god)
Benefits: Your "turning" attempts from Grant Mystic Strength may now be used to bolster or dispel turning of any type of creature. You may even mix creature types in a single bolstering or dispel turning attempt. Naturally, this is most useful for Outsiders and Elementals, but if you ever encounter a creature capable of turning/destroying Humanoid[Human], and need to counter that ability, you will be ready...
Special: A grace-gift may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

In addition, if you have, or later acquire, the Turn Away Harm feat, you may select either one type of elemental [Air, Water, Earth, Fire, Shadow, etc], Animals, Plants, or Outsiders with a single alignment type that is opposite of you on that axis. Your daily uses of Grant Mystic Strength may be used to turn that type of creature but never destroy, rebuke, or command it.



Turn Away Harm, Improved[Grace-gift]

Prerequisites: Grace-gift level 3, Grant Mystic Strength, Grant Strength to All, Turn Away Harm, must worship as a cleric not devoted to an abstract concept (usually meaning a single god)
Benefits: You may select two additional creature types to be able to turn, as per the restrictions on Grant Strength to All.
Special: A grace-gift of at least 3 class levels may take this feat as one of his grace-gift bonus feats.

DracoDei
2015-02-07, 01:26 PM
Added "Grace-Gifts and Prestige Classes" right below "Code of Conduct". Reproduced below for your convenience.

Grace-Gifts and Prestige Classes
Grace-Gifts benefit in a specific way from prestige classes that have "+1 level of existing divine spellcasting class" or "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" as a level advancement benefit. A grace-gift taking levels in such a prestige class does not gain any of his daily or strictly passive abilities. However they do gain abilities that require an action to use, even if they also have a passive component, as if they had gained a level of grace-gift and an increased caster level when using grace-gift abilities. This also applies to new versions of old abilities, provided that at no level are they limited to a certain number of times per day. Thus a 4th level grace-gift who takes a level of a prestige class that advances their divine caster level would not gain unlimited uses per day of their An Ounce of Prevention ability from that prestige class, but could gain Gift of Soul and improved versions of Gift of Resistance.

A grace-gift CAN qualify for prestige classes with spellcasting level requirements, since many of his abilities have equivalent spell levels.