Monter vs. Nature's Ally

[ExemplarofAvg]

Firstly just a little pole out of curiosity, which do you prefer?

Secondly (For those who know Pathfinder, or even those that don't)
How come the Summoner doesn't get Summon Nature's Ally on its spell-list, even the First Worlder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/first-worlder) doesn't get it added to his spell-list, just as their summon per day spell. (I had a PC ask me this and I didn't have a good answer) Would it be fine to give them Summon Nature's Ally I-IV?, and let the Summon Monster ability be open to either Summon Monster or Summon Nature's Ally? Or they pick at Level one? The character they want is a Master Summoner but they want to use the Sunlight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sunlight-summons), Moonlight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/moonlight-summons) and Starlight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/starlight-summons) Summons feat group. It doesn't seem like a problem to me so long as they bookkeep well, is there something I'm missing?

[molten_dragon]

I typically find Summon Nature's Ally better for straight up combat situations, and Summon Monster better for utility usage.

[Invader]

I think overall you get a little more oomph out of Summon Monster but with a party with a cleric and a Druid you'll probably see SNA cast more often.

[eggs]

I cannot overstate my deep and unhealthy love for spiderweb and SLA spam.
SM4lyfe :smalltongue:

[ExemplarofAvg]

Personally I'm mostly SNA, just because I normally roll up a druid so I've seen a lot of use. Even in Pathfinder, Augment + Superior Summoning, don't tell me 1d4+2 T-Rex with a strength boost can't scare things, I've seen it happen. When you roll a 4 under those circumstances, well, a party of 6 rolling into town on T-Rex usually sends a message to people, mostly it's get the f(iretr)uck out of our way though, :belkar:

[CTrees]

Talking Pathfinder:

-The "alternative" summons listed on the SRD which are taken from the Adventure Paths, even if they are from Paizo sources, should be ignored. Cannot state this firmly enough - power varies WILDLY. See: one of the SM2 alternatives is a hellhound, which just happens to be on the SM4 list, which means, if the listed alternates are allowed, SM4 could summon either one hellhound, or 1d4+1 hellhounds.

-The biggest problem is how short the lists are. For some reason, PF doesn't seem to have opted to give them much of a balanced expansion in their splats or iterated Bestiaries (the APs don't count, for the reasons above). Two or three options at high levels is slim pickings - this is something 3.5 helped with.

-Through SM/SNA4, Summon Monster clearly wins. SM gets basically the same options, only celestial or fiendish (strictly better). Further, SM quickly gets some added outsiders. The satyr and tiger at SNA4 are nice, and likely outweigh the hellhound and hound archon.

-SM/SNA5&6 give a lot more versatility to SM, but more combat power to SNA.

-SNA7 gives... two giants, versus celestial/fiendish versions of all of the same animals, plus bebeliths, bone devils, and vrocks (remember Dance of Ruin when summoning several)? SM7 wins

-SM/SNA8 is back to versatility vs. combat, though I think I might give it to SNA - cloud giants and purple worms are beefy

-SM9 is vastly better than SNA9. Pixies or storm giants vs... half a dozen CR 13-14 outsiders, with a ridiculous array of SLAs and (on the good outsiders) prepared cleric casting up to 14th level. Sadly you don't get to order Glabrezu to grant you wishes, but oh well.

-None of this addresses summoning more lower level creatures, or adding feats. Regardless, I'd rather have SM at low levels, SNA at mid levels, and SM at high levels.

The 3.5 lists change this around, but it's been long enough that I don't really remember which I favored.

[sonofzeal]

Board wisdom is SM gives better utility, and SNA gives better combat power.

I'm not sure how well that holds though. SNA generally gets elementals a spell level earlier and those have definite utility uses. It also gets a nice set of Fey and Magical Beasts for other utility effects. There's definitely some things you can get from SM that SNA can't cover you for, but the reverse is also true. And it's reliably better in offensive power, size, and durability, making it almost universally superior for the sorts of things you'd be looking for summon to do - occupy enemies, provide flanking function as pseudo-BC, grapple, set off traps, etc. Most of those things work better with larger summons, and nearly all of them are improved by summons that can take solid hits.

I think SNA wins by a landslide.

[StreamOfTheSky]

If it's PF, then SM wins by a country mile. SNA lost a LOT of the beefy combat brute edge (I don't even think they get a level discount on animals an elementals anymore?), SM retained a lot of the utility spellcasting it had all along, and PF buffed the ever loving hell out of smite evil/good, and it is downright nasty on a horde of pouncy cat things.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think SNA wins by a landslide.

But can it summon THE BOULDER!?

[eggs]

I never realized how much buffing Fiend Folio gave SNA, especially the Oread, Spore Bat and Octopus Tree.

I don't know if I'd call them favorably against swarms of Bone Devils or Small Monstrous Spiders, but they make SNAs more versatile than I'd thought.

[Spuddles]

I think SNA gets better splatbook support, and as a druid, what are you going to do with your feats anyway?

Question: where in the Fiend Folio does it add those monsters to SNA?

[Psyren]

Note that the Alchemist gets SNA I-IX (Preservationist archetype) and can summon them as standard actions. Not bad for a half-caster, so if you want to give the SNA line a go that might be a fun class to do it with.

[stack]

One feat (planar preservationist) gets them SM as well. Always wanted to play one, but always end up going summoner to play a summoner instead (go figure).

[eggs]

I think SNA gets better splatbook support, and as a druid, what are you going to do with your feats anyway?

Question: where in the Fiend Folio does it add those monsters to SNA?
Those are all in the individual entries.

On spatbook support, Summon Monster has about 100 (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872206/Legal_3.5_Summonable_Monster_List) additional monsters from different sources and SNA has about 20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11773704&postcount=1).

[Psyren]

One feat (planar preservationist) gets them SM as well. Always wanted to play one, but always end up going summoner to play a summoner instead (go figure).

Nice, didn't realize that.

And yeah, Summoner's better, but sometimes you don't want to be T2. (Alternatively, sometimes you want to summon a bunch of meat, then safely chuck bombs from behind it :smalltongue:)

[Spuddles]

Those are all in the individual entries.

Thanks. It took me a long time to find them tucked away in the combat section.


On spatbook support, Summon Monster has about 100 (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872206/Legal_3.5_Summonable_Monster_List) additional monsters from different sources and SNA has about 20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11773704&postcount=1).

SM doesn't get stuff like Ashbound, Greenbound, or Rashemi Elemental Summoning. Malconvoker is about the only thing I can think of that makes Summoned Monsters marginally useful in combat against CR equivalent or CR+2 equivalent monsters, and that requires giving up a caster level.

[molten_dragon]

I think SNA gets better splatbook support, and as a druid, what are you going to do with your feats anyway?

Actually, the exact opposite is true. There are a lot more creatures added to the summon monster lists in the various splatbooks than there are added to summon nature's ally lists.

It was noticeable enough that I decided to houserule some additions to SNA.

[Spuddles]

Actually, the exact opposite is true. There are a lot more creatures added to the summon monster lists in the various splatbooks than there are added to summon nature's ally lists.

It was noticeable enough that I decided to houserule some additions to SNA.

I don't have nearly an exhaustive enough knowledge of summoning to say this with much confidence, but it seems to me that most summoned monsters pretty much suck. There's nothing on the 5th level list to combat a fire giant, for instance. A Rashemi Storm Elemental or Greenbound Polar Bear, though, is basically like summoning your own CR 10 brute or caster, respectively.

I guess being able to replicate gust of wind, glitterdust, stinking cloud, and wind wall is pretty useful, but using a full round and 3rd level slots to get one casting seems a little mediocre, IMO.

Am I missing any really big utility stuff that the druid doesn't have an easy time replicating?

[Psyren]

SM doesn't get stuff like Ashbound, Greenbound, or Rashemi Elemental Summoning. Malconvoker is about the only thing I can think of that makes Summoned Monsters marginally useful in combat against CR equivalent or CR+2 equivalent monsters, and that requires giving up a caster level.

From a straight combat stance you'd be right. But in terms of utility you're wrong - you don't need the summons to be the toughest guys on the block, you just need their actions and powers. You don't summon Bone Devils for their lame +19 grapple and 1d8 bite, you summon them so they can make your enemies' lives a living hell (no pun intended) by flying above the battlefield and spamming walls of ice all over it.

[Azernak0]

I have always had it as "SNA is better at creating things that beat things to death with sheer power" and "SM is better at creating things that have spells and can do other stuff other than beat things to hell." SNA gets Ashbound and Greenbound Summoning and SM gets creatures that can do AoE Confusion and the like.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's really more about what options you get to improve either one, and how many you can put on a particular character.

Both:
Augment Summoning
Imbued Summoning
Rashemi Elemental Summoning

SM:
Rapid Summoning (Wizard-only)

SNA:
Greenbound Summoning
Ashbound
Ring of the Beast
Spontaneous Summoner


With all of that in mind, I'd say SNA is better by an insurmountable margin.

[Kuulvheysoon]

But can it summon THE BOULDER!?

No it cannot. It wins by a landslide, not a rock-alanche.

And I prefer SNA, mainly for the utility of summoning a unicorn.

[Spuddles]

From a straight combat stance you'd be right. But in terms of utility you're wrong - you don't need the summons to be the toughest guys on the block, you just need their actions and powers. You don't summon Bone Devils for their lame +19 grapple and 1d8 bite, you summon them so they can make your enemies' lives a living hell (no pun intended) by flying above the battlefield and spamming walls of ice all over it.

You don't need to wait until level 13 to get that sort of battlefield control with a druid, though. And wall of ice is strictly inferior to wall of elephant or huge elemental, IMO :smallbiggrin: