1 Shot BBEG ideas for a large party

[Invader]

I'm going to be running a 1 shot combat only 3.5 session at an upcoming gaming event. Ideally I'm going to be running all core classes: Paladin, rogue, fighter, wizard, cleric, ranger, bard, barbarian, and druid all 15-16 level that I'll be pre generating with regular wbl plus 1 exceptional magic item per character (around 50% value of wbl geared toward the build that I come up with for the class.

I need unique ideas for the BBEG for the PC's to fight. I was going to throw a couple dragons at them because I have the "mini's" for them but I'd like something a little more memorable.

Does anyone have some good ideas for an encounter keeping in mind that it's a large diverse party. Ideally a single target that has a couple mid level minions and a swarm or 2 of pretty easy cannon fodder so to speak.

Any location ideas are open if it makes the encounter more interesting than a generic square dungeon room so let's see mountain tips during a blizzard or a crazy arena with moving platforms and traps everywhere.

[Amidus Drexel]

How about a marilith defended by a handful of vrocks? (at least 3, so they can use their dance of ruin ability) A bunch of moving (and/or floating) platforms works perfectly for them, since they have teleport (and telekinesis) at-will.

[Invader]

How about a marilith defended by a handful of vrocks? (at least 3, so they can use their dance of ruin ability) A bunch of moving (and/or floating) platforms works perfectly for them, since they have teleport (and telekinesis) at-will.

That could work. I've already come up with an idea for the moving platforms and how they'd work.

I like the idea of terrain features outside the PC and the monsters control to keep things interesting.

[Wookie-ranger]

Beholder Mage.
Broken as the 'class' is if you only give it 1 or 2 levels it is challenging but not an instant tpk.

[Amidus Drexel]

No, even better: a beholder mage/ur-priest/mystic theurge :smallbiggrin:

[Wookie-ranger]

No, even better: a beholder mage/ur-priest/mystic theurge :smallbiggrin:

You forget to add the Dread Necromancer x / Rainbow Servant 10 :smallbiggrin:

[Amidus Drexel]

::facepalm:: how could I forget? :smallbiggrin:

before we drag invaderk2's thread TOO far off topic, we should come up with something to keep the 15-16th level PCs from killing the vrocks with one giant burst of magic and then dealing with the marilith sans peons. Another distraction, perhaps?

The best thing I can come up with right now are a few hellwasp swarms or just a mountain of dretches.

[Menteith]

If you're looking for a more subtle BBEG that is still reasonably dangerous, I created my own spin on the Joker Bard a while back. While he's only level 15, you can easily throw more levels of Fatespinner or Sublime Chord on.

NE Vecna-Blooded Changeling
Str 10
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 4
Cha 18

Devoted to an Elder Evil (Bonus Vile Feats at 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20)

Joker Bard
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st| Bardic Sage |
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2| Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Knowledge [Arcana] 4, Listen 4, Perform [Oratory] 4, Profession [Astrologer] 4, Sleight of Hand 4, Spellcraft 4| Willing Deformity, Deformity [Madness] | Bardic music, Loresong, Mimicking song, Fascinate, Inspire courage +1

2nd| Bardic Sage |
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3| Bluff 1, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Profession [Astrologer] 1, Sense Motive 1, Sleight of Hand 1, Spellcraft 1| - | -

3rd| Bardic Sage |
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3| Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Profession Astrologer 1, Sense Motive 3, Spellcraft 1| Persona Immersion | Inspire Competence

4th| Bardic Sage |
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4| Bluff 1, Intimidate 2, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1 |-| -

5th| Bardic Sage |
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4| Bluff 1, Intimidate 2, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1 | Evil Brand | -

6th| Bardic Sage |
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5| Bluff 2, Concentration 1 Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Conceal Spellcasting | Melodic Casting | Suggestion

7th| Lyrical Thamaturge |
+4|
+2|
+4|
+7| Bluff 1, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 1 |-| Bonus Spell

8th| Lyrical Thamaturge |
+4|
+2|
+5|
+8| Bluff 1, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 1|Captivating Melody| Bonus Feat

9th| Lyrical Thamaturge |
+5|
+3|
+5|
+8| Bluff 1, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 1| Versatile Spellcaster | Spell Secret

10th| Lyrical Thamaturge |
+6/+1|
+3|
+6|
+9| Bluff 1, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 1|Chosen of Evil | Bonus Spell

11th| Sublime Chord |
+7/+2|
+3|
+6|
+11| Perform 1, Profession [Gambler] 5 |-|-

12th| Mindbender |
+7/+2|
+3|
+6|
+13| Bluff 2, Perform 1| Mindsight |Telepathy

13th| Fatespinner |
+7/+2|
+3|
+6|
+15| Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 2 |-|Spin Fate

14th| Fatespinner |
+8/+3|
+3|
+6|
+16| Bluff 1, Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 1|-|Fickle Finger of Fate

15th| Fatespinner |
+8/+3|
+4|
+7|
+16| Bluff 1, Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 1 | Darkstalker, Enemy of Good |Spin Destiny[/table]


Put them in a town full of individuals who are under his mental control, and have a needle in a haystack situation where it's nearly impossible to identify who the BBEG is, while he isolates and takes potshots at them with 7th level spells and bardic Suggestions.

He's immune to all divinations (and can choose to give false information for any divination that targets him and is 3rd level or lower), all forms of mind affecting, can use Disguise Self at will, has a +23 to bluff from skill ranks and ability score modifications alone, Mindsight, and 7th level spells. If he's caught exposed without any minions, he'll be dropped, but he can make it a right pain in the ass catching him, and I do love running what amounts to The Joker.

[Invader]

If you're looking for a more subtle BBEG that is still reasonably dangerous, I created my own spin on the Joker Bard a while back. While he's only level 15, you can easily throw more levels of Fatespinner or Sublime Chord on.

NE Vecna-Blooded Changeling
Str 10
Dex 10
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 4
Cha 18

Devoted to an Elder Evil (Bonus Vile Feats at 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20)

Joker Bard
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st| Bardic Sage |
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2| Bluff 4, Diplomacy 4, Knowledge [Arcana] 4, Listen 4, Perform [Oratory] 4, Profession [Astrologer] 4, Sleight of Hand 4, Spellcraft 4| Willing Deformity, Deformity [Madness] | Bardic music, Loresong, Mimicking song, Fascinate, Inspire courage +1

2nd| Bardic Sage |
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3| Bluff 1, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Profession [Astrologer] 1, Sense Motive 1, Sleight of Hand 1, Spellcraft 1| - | -

3rd| Bardic Sage |
+2|
+1|
+1|
+3| Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Profession Astrologer 1, Sense Motive 3, Spellcraft 1| Persona Immersion | Inspire Competence

4th| Bardic Sage |
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4| Bluff 1, Intimidate 2, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1 |-| -

5th| Bardic Sage |
+3|
+1|
+1|
+4| Bluff 1, Intimidate 2, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1 | Evil Brand | -

6th| Bardic Sage |
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5| Bluff 2, Concentration 1 Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Conceal Spellcasting | Melodic Casting | Suggestion

7th| Lyrical Thamaturge |
+4|
+2|
+4|
+7| Bluff 1, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 1 |-| Bonus Spell

8th| Lyrical Thamaturge |
+4|
+2|
+5|
+8| Bluff 1, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 1|Captivating Melody| Bonus Feat

9th| Lyrical Thamaturge |
+5|
+3|
+5|
+8| Bluff 1, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 1| Versatile Spellcaster | Spell Secret

10th| Lyrical Thamaturge |
+6/+1|
+3|
+6|
+9| Bluff 1, Knowledge [Arcana] 1, Listen 1, Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 1|Chosen of Evil | Bonus Spell

11th| Sublime Chord |
+7/+2|
+3|
+6|
+11| Perform 1, Profession [Gambler] 5 |-|-

12th| Mindbender |
+7/+2|
+3|
+6|
+13| Bluff 2, Perform 1| Mindsight |Telepathy

13th| Fatespinner |
+7/+2|
+3|
+6|
+15| Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 2 |-|Spin Fate

14th| Fatespinner |
+8/+3|
+3|
+6|
+16| Bluff 1, Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 1|-|Fickle Finger of Fate

15th| Fatespinner |
+8/+3|
+4|
+7|
+16| Bluff 1, Perform 1, Sleight of Hand 1 | Darkstalker, Enemy of Good |Spin Destiny[/table]


Put them in a town full of individuals who are under his mental control, and have a needle in a haystack situation where it's nearly impossible to identify who the BBEG is, while he isolates and takes potshots at them with 7th level spells and bardic Suggestions.

He's immune to all divinations (and can choose to give false information for any divination that targets him and is 3rd level or lower), all forms of mind affecting, can use Disguise Self at will, has a +23 to bluff from skill ranks and ability score modifications alone, Mindsight, and 7th level spells. If he's caught exposed without any minions, he'll be dropped, but he can make it a right pain in the ass catching him, and I do love running what amounts to The Joker.

I really like the idea but since it's just a 1 shot combat and there's going to be a lot of people I want to make it more of a straight up combat without making the PC's think to much (as I don't know any of the people playing beforehand).

[Runestar]

If you have MM5, I recommend the master of the hunt encounter. It basically consists of a cr22 fey hunter, plus his 4 cr18 hounds. This works out to be a EL24 battle. Because the hounds are all the same, this cuts down on the amount of prep work (as you are using the same stat block 4 times). The hunter is basically a souped up ranger, so he is less confusing than a spellcaster.

Alternatively, consider 2 garngraths (also MM5, cr20 each). I like them because they have a variety of AoE effects which promise to engage the whole party and let everyone feel like they are contributing to the battle somehow. However, since each attack doesn't really deal that much damage, you don't run the risk of "accidentally" 1-shotting a PC.

[Andorax]

I'm not a huge fan of BBEGs in general, especially not for a large party. 4E defines a specific class of monsters that are designed to challenge whole parties, and the one thing they have in common...is lots of ways to break the action economy wide open to counteract being up against several PCs at once.

You'll either need multiple actions, vast immunities to be able to "waste" the party's actions against it, or...better...mix up what you're hitting them with.


Minions (both weak and higher end) are all well and good, but personally I like a Team Evil for this sort of encounter.

Perhaps...

An Efreeti with 8 Swordsage levels
a Horned Devil, and
a Mature Adult Blue Dragon.

Each CR 16 (collectively, *around* an EL 19 encounter). A wide mix of abilities, compatable alignment, previous encounters can draw on elemental, draconic, and/or infernal sources...and especially if you can mix and match 'em (Fiendish Fire Elementals and Blue Abashai come to mind). Brainstorm what would bring such a combination together and what their purpose (and relationship to each other) is.

[rweird]

Wizard 20 (Conjurer, Abrupt Jaunt Variant), have Ironguard, Blink; Greater, Greater Mirror Image, Displacement, a Ring of Evasion and the spell Starmantle (BoED), and Spell Resistance (Boost you CL as high as it can go to make him less vulnerable to dispels) make it so he has only a few rounds left for each of these, 3-8, make an illusion or duplicate of him, hopefully the PCs will Alpha Strike the illusion or duplicate, and then he comes with some buffed Planer Bound monsters to fight the PCs. Having a low duration would make it so the PCs ineffectively spend the first few rounds blowing off their most powerful abilities, they will be lower on resources when his buffs expire, they will be able to deal with him, but he will have had an option to hurt the party, they finish him and the rest of him summoned creatures, and the session is over. This is just one idea though it involves playing the wizard really stupid because he buffs, and has the option to, but he only has a bit of time to finish the party, take it or leave it.

[ericgrau]

I would have said a titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm) but his CR is too high. Simply because he can transform into a small humanoid while his gargantuan warhammer stays the same size and he retains all his normal abilities and stats. Mix him in a group of similarly ridiculous looking minions who are actually that humanoid race so he doesn't stick out at first. He would thereafter be known as "the kobold of doom" or "the gnome of doom" or "<insert your favorite small race> of doom".

A large party might normally handle a CR 21 anyway encounter by numbers advantage, but he also has quickened chain lightning to hit all 9 of them at once. And in this situation meteor swarm is actually good due to large radius. So victory isn't likely. Maybe you could depower him a little. Give him a -2 to everything both offensive and defensive (including AC, saves and HD) perhaps, remove his 9th level spells and quicken a 5th level spell instead of chain lightning.

[rweird]

A Titan would be fine. It doesn't need to be debuffed at all, just don't use gate to gate another Titan or a Solar.

[Menteith]

A group of Necropolitan Necromancers and their minions. Use a Cleric, Wizard, and Dread Necro for their bases, apply the entire Corpsecraft line of benefits to them (Corpsecrafter, Nimble Bones, Hardened Flesh), and have them each specialize in a different discipline. Have the Wizard focus on a Lord of the Uttercold nuking build (ensuring that their team has cold resistance/immunity), have the Dread Necro focus on Fear boosting, and the Cleric focus on Minion-Mancy. Set it in their necropolis, where the walls themselves are uncontrolled Skeletons who lash out at the living, while the floor is packed mud and Zombies who continuously attempt to grapple anyone who fails to see where their arms reach up.

This set up allows you to have a clear theme with a serious, unique challenge, while avoiding the problems of a single high level dude (Action Economy problems, Rocket Tag on both sides). If you'd want, I could throw together a few rough builds, but idk if this is something you'd want.

[animewatcha]

How does CR get calculated if you throw gestalt characters at these guys?

[rweird]

In general, it requires creatures of a CR one higher though I think that is to low.

[137beth]

If it's a one-shot game, then why not just end it with Pun-Pun?

Okay, more seriously, the problem with a titan is that it does not have access to (good) flight. Unless the ceiling is sufficiently low, this could be a problem.

[animewatcha]

Reason I am asking is, you throw a couple of gestalt characters at these guys that are like 'class-a side' 17 / 'class-b side' 17. Also, how many dodge feats are there for stackable-ness (dodge, deceptive dodge, etc. )? And which deities can 'replace' shar for death domain? Specifically, shar due to dark moon disciple ACF. Please say yes to dragon mags, cause I have in my head a semi-good offensive-defensive warrior-based pair ( not tome of battle use, but maybe still okay ).

[137beth]

Gestalt is so inconsistant that the power should not be judged by a fixed increase. For a BBEG fight, XP doesn't matter, so CR doesn't really matter either. What matters is whether or not it works. If he gestalts mystic theuge/druid 20, that is too powerful. If he gestalts monk/truenamer 27, that is too easy, despite being a gestalted epic character.

[ericgrau]

Okay, more seriously, the problem with a titan is that it does not have access to (good) flight. Unless the ceiling is sufficiently low, this could be a problem.

Flight on the PC end is an issue 1/100th as often as people talk about it. It must be outdoors, the entire party must fly, the entire party must be ranged, they must have a way around his many ranged spells, and they need to initiate the fight against a creature with at will invisibility. Summon a flying mount with summon nature's ally IX if there's a real problem and/or go invisible and move indoors and/or use your at-will CL 20 greater dispel to ground half the party. But I highly doubt it'll even come up. Hit close up things, spellcast at faraway things.

With multi-target spells like quickened chained lightning and meteor swarm that's 52d6 ~= 182 damage to the whole party, save for half. The squishiest PC has around 100 hp. Sure if the party's uber optimized some of them might have ways around that but most likely several PCs will die. And these are pregenerated PCs not individually crafted brainchilds of theoretical optimization boards. I wouldn't send something high CR with multi-target effects against a large party. It's asking for either a wipe or a cheese solution with no middle ground between the two.


The big demon + vrock idea is interesting too, and simple. Adds the strategy involved with time pressure if any of them make their knowledge (planes) checks.

[animewatcha]

Reason I ask is so that it can still be cr-appropriate. also 27 Truenamer? Hello? Truename gate at-will? Heck, truename-gate a solar that Wishes the PCs dead with no means of coming back whatsoever.

[rweird]

Give the Titan appropriate WBL, problem solved. Energy Immunity (Electricity) is a 6th level Druid and Cleric Spell, Stormrage is 8th for druid. The only thing that should throw them for a loop is Gate, that could summon another Titan, a Solar, or two Effreti.

[Invader]

What kind of CR would a group of 8-9 15th level characters be looking at to begin with? I want to kill the majority of them but still allow them a chance to win since its just combat and not really a campaign.

[Invader]

I've decided on an old blue dragon which is a CR 18 plus I'd like to have a bunch lower level monsters to distract the PC's attention and keep them busy as well as buffing/healing the dragon.

[Amidus Drexel]

if you want to kill around half of them, the battle should be (nearly) evenly matched. Eight level 15 adventurers make a CR21 or so encounter for your BBEG + minions. A few buffing things (like you suggested) around CR13-14 should even that up. Any low-level mooks are just going to be there to eat attacks, so I don't think they're worth factoring in unless you have more than the party can reliably kill in a round.

[Invader]

if you want to kill around half of them, the battle should be (nearly) evenly matched. Eight level 15 adventurers make a CR21 or so encounter for your BBEG + minions. A few buffing things (like you suggested) around CR13-14 should even that up. Any low-level mooks are just going to be there to eat attacks, so I don't think they're worth factoring in unless you have more than the party can reliably kill in a round.

Thank you! That's perfect because I wanted to buff the dragon up an age category. Now I'm just trying to think of minions that make sense hanging around a blue dragon.

[animewatcha]

There any way to 'gate' one of the party members ( at random for a bit of fairness ) and add to party trouble that way? Or maybe an alternative material plane 'copy' of one of the party members.

[AWiz_Abroad]

Thank you! That's perfect because I wanted to buff the dragon up an age category. Now I'm just trying to think of minions that make sense hanging around a blue dragon.

Hmmm. . . . well, what about some Sunscorch Hobgoblins with levels in Dragonfire adept, or Wyrm Wizard. . . (See Dragon Magic).

[Invader]

I'm thinking some crocosphinx's hidden around a watery oasis that serves as part of the dragons lair. Now all I have to do is come up with a cheap and easy way to decorate a rocky desert oasis.

Spray glue and sand should be a decent start and I guess just some rocks to make up a sort of raised lair area.

[rweird]

Do any of them have any experience with D&D message boards. If so, become immune to Dex damage (Add magic to boost Dex as well) or the dragon will go down with one ranged touch attack (Maximized Shivering Touch +
Spectral Hand).

[Andorax]

Perhaps advanced/classed Blue Abashai?

MMIV's Bluespawn ____s? Godslayers (CR10) would certainly make the fight more interesting, just be sure there's enough room for everyone.


A couple of shambling mounds of enormous size that a breath weapon or two can supercharge?

It doesn't properly fit the lore, but a Dragonflesh Golem (MMII CR 13) of a defeated rival/foe that can be healed with electrical damage?

[Invader]

Do any of them have any experience with D&D message boards. If so, become immune to Dex damage (Add magic to boost Dex as well) or the dragon will go down with one ranged touch attack (Maximized Shivering Touch +
Spectral Hand).

I'm making up all the characters so I'll be able to control the instant win shenanigans lol.

[animewatcha]

Do not underestimate player's creativity for instant win shenanigans.

[Grail]

Go upside their head.
Mirror of Opposition - have them fight themselves. If they are cheesy, well so are their enemies. If they are balanced, then so are their enemies.

Let them be unto their own doom.

[Roguenewb]

Kobolds and dragons are best friends. Send them your old blue dragon Ans Tucker's kobolds

[Zubrowka74]

How about a new breed of Thessalmonster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessalmonster) ?

Someting with intelligence, even spellcasting or spell-like abilities, say a Thessalholder : like a thessalhydra but the heads are actually beholder eyestalks ? Or even better, the Thessalminster, with each head being Elminster's.

[Zubrowka74]

Or even better, the Thessalminster, with each head being Elminster's.

If you want to be consistent with the Thessalmonsters' Greyhawk origins it could even be Thessalhamazad.