Pathfinder Build Help: Broodmaster/Master Summoner Build

[Tokuhara]

We switched GMs, and he just nixed my Spellslinger (guns are not in our campaign), so for Grarrg and everyone else who helped out, I thank you.

Now, I am forced with some sadness, that I have to start from scratch.

Now, I love the unorthodox combination of Broodmaster and Master Summoner (the thought of having 5+ allies running around makes me smile like a goof), but the weakened Evolution pool hurts. Half-Elf can mitigate this, but I'm sure that 5 Evolution Points isn't going to be enough.

Is there a way to optimize this combination?

[Waker]

While the archetypes can be combined, I would strongly suggest you avoid doing so. Besides cluttering up the battlefield with entirely too many combatants, your eidolons will be terribly weak between having their stats divided between multiple bodies on top of the lesser eidolon ability from the Master Summoner.
Playing either or is fine, but both archetypes lead to nearly useless minions.

[grarrrg]

combination of Broodmaster and Master Summoner

Is there a way to optimize this combination?

Yes, in order to optimize this combination to its fullest you must NOT TAKE BOTH.

Seriously.

1 Weak Eidolon w/Summons support is fine.
Multiple Weaker Eidolons are fine.

Multiple Super Weak Eidolons w/Summons...Why have the Eidolons?

EDIT: GAH! Ninjas!

[Tokuhara]

This is a party of limited optimizers (one member of the party actually believes that monk is the most broken class and that wizard is underpowered), so me slightly gimping myself isn't as big of a bad idea as it sounds.

The thought isn't "Quality over Quantity," but more of a "Quantity has a Quality all its own."

I understand that this defies common logic, but in a small party, the "army of summons" would help the party

[Pyromancer999]

This is a party of limited optimizers (one member of the party actually believes that monk is the most broken class and that wizard is underpowered), so me slightly gimping myself isn't as big of a bad idea as it sounds.

The thought isn't "Quality over Quantity," but more of a "Quantity has a Quality all its own."

I understand that this defies common logic, but in a small party, the "army of summons" would help the party

I suppose it might, although what help it can offer is quite limited. It's not just the evolution pool that's split up between the Eidolons, it's also HD, feats, and skills, resulting in pretty squishy Eidolons, so optimizing at least a little more than usual would probably be necessary in order to make this work.

[Tokuhara]

I suppose it might, although what help it can offer is quite limited. It's not just the evolution pool that's split up between the Eidolons, it's also HD, feats, and skills, resulting in pretty squishy Eidolons, so optimizing at least a little more than usual would probably be necessary in order to make this work.

any ideas? I am running with a small party who is inexperienced and underpowered. I need to fill the space in the party

[Waker]

Well what my apparent rival and myself are trying to say is that even in a party of low-optimizers you still should reconsider mixing the archetypes. The value of your eidolons will be nothing when they are constantly getting one-shot by thugs or all of them wiped from the field with one AoE.
I'd say that if you go with Broodmaster you make no more than three eidolons with each focusing on some different aspect, like making one designed for grappling foes or a skirmishing scout or something. Master Summoner of course can decide what he wants to do whenever he wants with his summons.
But like I said before, taking both is a big no-no.

What is the rest of your party and the levels?

[grarrrg]

If you insist on following this route...

Master Summoner says:"A master summoner’s class level is halved (minimum 1) for the purposes of determining his eidolon’s [stuff]"

Broodmaster says: "At 8th level, the broodmaster can spend 4 evolution points from the evolution pool for the large evolution..."

Depending on how you interpret this interaction, you might be stuck with 2 Small Eidolons until level _16_.


If you 'can' enlarge your brood at level 8 then you should be a Small Race and make 1 of your Eidolons Medium. The Medium one shall be your Mount/Primary, one of the Small ones will be your Skill Monkey/Utility. And the other... heck, just make them both Medium, they are spread thin enough as is.

[Tokuhara]

If you insist on following this route...

Master Summoner says:"A master summoner’s class level is halved (minimum 1) for the purposes of determining his eidolon’s [stuff]"

Broodmaster says: "At 8th level, the broodmaster can spend 4 evolution points from the evolution pool for the large evolution..."

Depending on how you interpret this interaction, you might be stuck with 2 Small Eidolons until level _16_.


If you 'can' enlarge your brood at level 8 then you should be a Small Race and make 1 of your Eidolons Medium. The Medium one shall be your Mount/Primary, one of the Small ones will be your Skill Monkey/Utility. And the other... heck, just make them both Medium, they are spread thin enough as is.

Problem is that no small race really buffs summoner

[Tokuhara]

Ok. My party seems to be themed around "Inspired by Squaresoft."

Human Ninja 1 (Shadow from FFVI)
Grippli Paladin 1 (Glenn/Frog from Chrono Trigger)
Half-Orc Two-Handed Fighter 1 (He keeps claiming Cloud from FFVII)
Human Oracle 1 (Yuna from FFX2)

So I need to fit in here. Help?

[deuxhero]

Do something (relatively) obscure like Mana/Seiken Densetsu, Live a Live, Secret of Evermore or if you want to get technical, Breath of Fire (Capcom deved, but Square published outside of Japan), Xenogears or Bahamut Lagoon. (I'd say Bushido Blade, but 3.5 is just about the worst system for that EVER.)

[Tokuhara]

Do something (relatively) obscure like Mana/Seiken Densetsu, Live a Live, Secret of Evermore or if you want to get technical, Breath of Fire (Capcom deved, but Square published outside of Japan), Xenogears or Bahamut Lagoon. (I'd say Bushido Blade, but 3.5 is just about the worst system for that EVER.)

Open to suggestions.

[deuxhero]

Hmm... How about SaGa Frontier's lesbian catnip Asellus? Straight charisma caster or gish both work for her. How to capture the supernatural attractiveness the transfusion gave her is a bit tricky though.

I think the ARG has a bloodline related to noble linage or such, which fits flavor wise, but I'm no sure on the crunch.

[Tokuhara]

Hmm... How about SaGa Frontier's lesbian catnip Asellus? Straight charisma caster or gish both work for her. How to capture the supernatural attractiveness the transfusion gave her is a bit tricky though.

I think the ARG has a bloodline related to noble linage or such, which fits flavor wise, but I'm no sure on the crunch.

Great thought, minus I prefer to play my gender (male)

[deuxhero]

Lesbian catnip is off the table eh. You are also taking Lise off the table and someone is alreddy a Ninja, so Seiken Densetsu 3 might as well not exist for you... Hmm...

[Tokuhara]

What about Legend of Dragoon or Dragon Quest?

[Private]

Honestly, I'm with the team that is against using both Archtypes. You just lose too much oopmh. I'd just go straight Master Summoner.

The 2 Thematic ideas I can think of are:

1. Play any character from a FF that included Guardian Forces (Aeons, Espers, etc.). Make your Eidolon themed after your favorite GF, like Ifirt or Diablos, then your regular summons can act as other GFs.

2. You could play the Silent Hero from Dragon Quest 8. In that game, they had a system where you could recruit monsters from the world to fight for you after you defeated them. They'd either fight in your place in battles, or fight in the monster arena. They'd get special bonuses if they were similarly themed (like 3 slimes, 3 golems, etc.). That'd be cool fluff, and encourage your DM to work with you to add monsters to your SM list, or make you fight monsters from it on a regular basis, so you could claim that they "joined" you.

Just my 2 cp.

[marcielle]

Summoning a GF sounds cool. BEING one would be cooler. Ifrit and Undine monster races practically beg to be used like this. Maybe be Ifrit Wiz(Evoc specialist)/ Abjurant Champ. As an outsider, you should get automatic proficiency with all martial weaps so you don't need to dip fighter or something for Abjurant Champ. But some DMs might overide your natural proficiencies with your class so you might need to get a specific ruling.

Or you could be Donald Duck and just go straight Sorc. Just be a Tengu and paint yourself white. And maybe learn to waddle lol.:smalltongue:

Or Caith Sith from FF7. Straight catfolk summoner. Ride your giant pink Eidolon to victory.

[deuxhero]

What about Legend of Dragoon or Dragon Quest?

One is SCEI the other is (Square) Enix. Neither fits with your theme.

[Tokuhara]

I loved Dragon Warrior: Monsters for the Game Boy. Too bad your Eidolon can't be an Ooze (something like Metal Slime).

The Final Fantasy guardian thing is cool as well. Again, too bad my favorite summon is Alexander and Eidolons cannot be Huge/Gargantuan.

As for the Abjurant Champion, I'd need to get a 3.5 PrC approved by a stingy GM.

No. Not worth defending Donald.

Cait Sith is small, more like an awakened house cat summoner.

What about an Organization XIII member?

[Tokuhara]

One is SCEI the other is (Square) Enix. Neither fits with your theme.

Technically, Enix, Squaresoft, and Square Enix are ok with me. Coulda sworn that LoD was a SE product.

[deuxhero]

So is the theme actually SquareEnix and not SquareSoft? Because that's a lot easier.

Ideas

Moderate Int 7 wisdom Fighter... who transparently lies about being native to the game's planet (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time).

Superfly Johnson (Are Edios games acceptable?).

[Tokuhara]

So is the theme actually SquareEnix and not SquareSoft? Because that's a lot easier.

Ideas

Moderate Int 7 wisdom Fighter... who transparently lies about being native to the game's planet (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time).

Superfly Johnson (Are Edios games acceptable?).

Eidos is okay. Please, I need someone cool to fill the party's opening

[marcielle]

There were builds for the sniper and spearman but they were 3.5 and I don't think they convert that well into pure PF.

The young template would shrink the catfolk a size, but hits your Con like a truck. But you could try playing the real Cait Sith (Reeve) using Broodmaster. Making one small Eidolon riding a bigger one. Just spend one HD and all the skill points on the smaller one, turn it into a skillmonkey eidolon. Maybe one evo point for minor magic. And don't forget the Scottish accent.

So, you'd be a normal summoner with a fighting Eidolon 1 HD behind and a skillmonkey eidolon. The inherent strength of the summoner class should get you through no prob in a low-mid op. But you might wanna keep the cat far away from combat.

Remember, a summoner gets all the best buffs at a 1 or sometimes 2 lvl discount. And you have a party full of meelee. You could split the HD and evo halfway between Cait and mog and still contribute plenty to the party. Something tells me the ninja aint gonna conentrate on skillmonkeyin so much.

[CTrees]

Go with Magus! The Chrono Trigger character, not the class. Your party is missing an arcane caster, and in a low-op game, blasting can be a hell of a lot of fun. Go with an Admixture school wizard for that whole "all the elements" thing, and possibly go into eldritch knight (Magus was a bit of a gish). Alternatively, using a magus to model Magus could work out alright, with the right added spells.

[deuxhero]

Yeah, with your party composition, full mystic Asellus is the best I can think of.

[Tokuhara]

What about Kuja? He's without a doubt a full caster.

My intent is to have a character from a Square Enix character from a game the others don't cover.

[deuxhero]

Sure if you can get away with using the antagonist and making your party Final Fantasy+Chrono Trigger

[marcielle]

Vivi? Always loved the little guy. Just be the boomstick and talk very little.

[Tokuhara]

So these are some of the names that have come up:

Magus: Tiefling Wizard/?/Eldritch Knight or Sorcerer/Paladin(Ends justify the means)/Eldritch Knight

Cait Sith: Young Catfolk Summoner

Any others folks?

[CTrees]

Cait Sith could be a Young Advanced Catfolk, if it's allowed. Overall it's a little mean, but whatever, it balances to +0 (unless you're fine with the various penalties from Young).

As to Magus, I'd probably go straight admixture wizard. Tiefling Wizard5/Eldritch Knight X actually technically still works - the devs have stated that tieflings/aasimar/ifrits/undine/etc. aren't intended to get martial weapon proficiency, but errata hasn't actually been released, so... Anyway, the intended entry is usually Wizard5/Fighter1/EKX, but subbing one level of Sohei Monk for the fighter would actually work - martial weapon prof, all good saves, a bonus feat (admittedly from a limited list) and acting in the surprise round isn't terrible (again, straight admixture wizard will get you more dakka blasting, but it's the character - Vivi or any of the other black mages would also be modeled well by an admixture wizard - pick your favorite).

I'm pretty sure we can model any character you want to come up with, but my focus, at least, was what was missing from your party.

[grarrrg]

The Final Fantasy guardian thing is cool as well. Again, too bad my favorite summon is Alexander and Eidolons cannot be Huge/Gargantuan.

Eidolons can be Huge at level 13 by spending 10 Evo points.
Throw on an Enlarge Person and there you go.



OOH! You could be Tellah from FFIV!
Probably a Mystic Theurge would work best, although an argument can be made for straight Wizard.
But here's the key: your casting stat(s) must be LOWER than your highest Spell Slot! So if you have 5th level spell slots, then your INT can be 14 at the most.

[Tokuhara]

Eidolons can be Huge at level 13 by spending 10 Evo points.
Throw on an Enlarge Person and there you go.



OOH! You could be Tellah from FFIV!
Probably a Mystic Theurge would work best, although an argument can be made for straight Wizard.
But here's the key: your casting stat(s) must be LOWER than your highest Spell Slot! So if you have 5th level spell slots, then your INT can be 14 at the most.

What about an Oracle/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge? Plus, he's old. Like Bussboy at the Last Supper old.

[grarrrg]

What about an Oracle/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge? Plus, he's old. Like Bussboy at the Last Supper old.

From a pure flavor standpoint I think Wizard/Cleric/Mystic would be best. Tellah 'used' to be the best mage guy EVAR! but in his old age, senility has set in and he's not all there (yeah yeah, D&D old age gets smarter...go figure!), and Charisma just doesn't seem like his Primary Stat.

But from a more optimized standpoint, either Sorc/Oracle/Mystic, or Sorc (WIS)/Cleric/Mystic would be more manageable.

From a pure optimized standpoint, pick your favorite full caster and go nuts.


Your Shadow and Frog players seem to be fairly faithful (as far as I can tell anyway).
Your "Cloud" and Yuna players... not so much...

HOW IS YUNA NOT A SUMMONER?!?!!???!!!
Human Oracle is fine for Aeris, or 'White Mage', or, well, ANYONE BUT YUNA!

(yes I am well aware that Yuna is a White Magic Summoner, which is not directly translatable to any one D&D/PF class, but given the fact that 'in game' she is called a Summoner, and that fact that anyone in that game can learn White Magic, I feel that the Summoner (PF) class is an infinitely better fit than Oracle)

[deuxhero]

FF summons are just refluffed blast spells.

[grarrrg]

FF summons are just refluffed blast spells.

You sir, have not played/seen FFX Summon spells (which is where Yuna is from).

You have a standard 3 people active party (out of 7).
When Yuna Summons one of her monsters (Aeons), it REPLACES the party, and you control the Aeon until you win, or it 'dies'.

So the PF Summoner is VERY appropriate for her.
The Synthesist is 'technically' more appropriate because it would "replace" her on the field, but the main point is she should be Summoner not Oracle.

[Tokuhara]

She is inspired by Yuna, but isn't her.

And besides, I'm not a fan of Age cheesing

[marcielle]

Still pushing Reeve Tuesti as a Human Broodmaster.

Xigbar might work if a Zen Archer spent tons of money on teleporation. Use qinggong to get gaseous form(pseudo teleport) and scorching ray(snipe attack). Just refluff your 1 bow to 2 hand crossbows. Not nearly as much of a stretch as 'Cloud' at any rate. A hard start but when you finally get dimensional dervish, it WILL be awesome. You can depend on uses per day items for teleporting since the only reason Xigbar has to spam his space abilities is to keep up wiht the platformingly agile Sora.
Alternately, a ray Wizard with high Dex and 2 crossbows. But take the Conjuration school. Why? Teleportation subschool. Oh the fun I had with that. Letting loose the most annoying spell I had and then teleporting behind cover.

Adelbert Steiner is a pretty clear cut magus.

Amaranth Coral could be a monk with Throw Anything.

I got nothing anymore.

[grarrrg]

!
Do Kain from FF IV!
Play a Dragoon, and randomly turn traitor on the party, and then rejoin later, turn traitor, rejoin, tur....


Xigbar might work if a Zen Archer spent tons of money on teleporation. Use qinggong to get gaseous form(pseudo teleport) and scorching ray(snipe attack). Just refluff your 1 bow to 2 hand crossbows. Not nearly as much of a stretch as 'Cloud' at any rate. A hard start but when you finally get dimensional dervish, it WILL be awesome. You can depend on uses per day items for teleporting since the only reason Xigbar has to spam his space abilities is to keep up wiht the platformingly agile Sora.

Take 12 levels of Quiggong/Zen monk for Abundant Step, then add 3 levels of Horizon Walker for 3+WIS/day Dimension Doors (Astral Plane Terrain).

[Tokuhara]

Doing Kain would make the party go ape**** and probably cost me a character...

Considered Terry from Dragon Warrior: Monsters I (default summoner with the skin of his Eidolons casting the spells and he orders them to use a Technique), Sten (Vanara Efreeti-Empyreal Blooded Sorcerer), Magus (Tiefling Wizard/Eldritch Knight), and Katana from Before Crisis: FFVII (Human Magus with a Katana)

[Thalnawr]

What about Valkyrie Profile for game inspiration? You could be an Alchemist multiclassing into Wizard or something, and be Lezard Valeth (http://valkyrieprofile.wikia.com/wiki/Lezard_Valeth).

Note: I have no idea about how viable this combination is, as I've only barely started buying Pathfinder books and such.

[Tokuhara]

What about Valkyrie Profile for game inspiration? You could be an Alchemist multiclassing into Wizard or something, and be Lezard Valeth (http://valkyrieprofile.wikia.com/wiki/Lezard_Valeth).

Note: I have no idea about how viable this combination is, as I've only barely started buying Pathfinder books and such.

Mindchemist 1/Wizard 19?

[grarrrg]

Mindchemist 1/Wizard 19?

Note: I have no idea about how viable this combination is, as I've only barely started buying Pathfinder books and such.
More viable than most. Int Synergy, and Bomb ability stacking go a long way.

I'd say go Alchemist (whatever Archetype) for at least 2 levels, just so you gain access to Discoveries and can take the "Extra Discovery" feat.

For Wizard, you should go Arcane Bomber (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/arcane-bomber), just to make your Bombs not worthless.

NOTE: When taking levels of Arcane Bomber + Alchemist, you have full progression for Bomb Damage and Bombs/day, BUT you must either choose "Fire damage w/any Bomb Discoveries" (alchemist), OR "Choose your Damage type, NO Bomb Discoveries" (wizard)


Of course, since you are losing 2 Wizard levels, Magic Knack Trait (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-knack) can help.

[Tokuhara]

More viable than most. Int Synergy, and Bomb ability stacking go a long way.

I'd say go Alchemist (whatever Archetype) for at least 2 levels, just so you gain access to Discoveries and can take the "Extra Discovery" feat.

For Wizard, you should go Arcane Bomber (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/arcane-bomber), just to make your Bombs not worthless.

NOTE: When taking levels of Arcane Bomber + Alchemist, you have full progression for Bomb Damage and Bombs/day, BUT you must either choose "Fire damage w/any Bomb Discoveries" (alchemist), OR "Choose your Damage type, NO Bomb Discoveries" (wizard)


Of course, since you are losing 2 Wizard levels, Magic Knack Trait (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-knack) can help.

Strangely, I really like this. Cognatogens can boost my casting stat, bombs can keep my foes at bay/BFC, and spells can fill niches.

Edit:

So here's the build so far:

Class: Mindchemist 2/Arcane Bomber 18
Race: Human: Heart of the Fields, Alchemist Favored Class - Craft (Alchemy) (+2 INT)

Feats:

1: Improved Initiative, Ecclectic (Wizard)
3: Extra Discovery: Smoke Bomb
5: Extra Discovery: Stink Bomb
7: Extra Discovery: Tanglefoot Bomb, Ectoplasmic Spell
9: Sickening Spell
11: Spell Penetration
12: Piercing Spell
13: Selective Spell
15: Greater Spell Penetration
17: Persistant Spell, Bouncing Spell
19: Echoing Spell

Discovery: Tumor Familiar- Compsognathus
Opposed Schools: Divination, Abjuration, Evocation, Illusion

Gear:
Armored Robes (Enchantable)
Ring of Protection
Ring of Wizardry
Headband of Vast Intelligence
Belt of Incredible Dexterity

[Larpus]

Build looks good and should be pretty effective in that group.

My Vivisectionist was deemed op in a group of similar people (they also think that Monk is op and that it's impossible for a Barbarian to out-build a Fighter).

Only things that I found rather strange is: why Heart of the Fields? You seem invested in having many skillpoints, so I don't really see the big benefit of negating fatigue 1/day since there's nothing you do that causes it.

Also, I'd advise against Favored Class Alchemist and then Eclectic(Wizard), it's just 2 skill points, not worth a feat. Just lower two of your Int-based skills and you should have no issues and grab something else such as Toughness or Great Fortitude.

I'd also squeeze Precise Bombs in there, after all, even without damage-boosting discoveries, the blast will still be damage enough that you won't want to hit your friends with, remember that all your chosen discoveries do not replace damage, ergo any party member will be hit with a Stinking Cloud and take damage.

[grarrrg]

Only things that I found rather strange is: why Heart of the Fields? You seem invested in having many skillpoints, so I don't really see the big benefit of negating fatigue 1/day since there's nothing you do that causes it.

Heart of the Fields has TWO bonuses:
"...They gain a bonus equal to half their character level to any one Craft or Profession skill..."

Me thinks he likes Craft (Alchemy).
Also note it is "character" not "class" level.

[Larpus]

Heart of the Fields has TWO bonuses:
"...They gain a bonus equal to half their character level to any one Craft or Profession skill..."

Me thinks he likes Craft (Alchemy).
Also note it is "character" not "class" level.
Oh, d'oh!

I'm so used to pondering about it when making Barbarians that I always forget the second bonus.

[Tokuhara]

Heart of the Fields is entirely for the Craft: Alchemy bonus. Always great for a bomb-focused guy.

If I drop off the eclectic, I'll probably grab Extra Bombs (more dakka!!!)

And I may drop one of the Metamagic Feats for Extra Discovery: Precise Bomb. Just to decide which one...