V made the right mistake.

[Paseo H]

Sure, worldwide genocide is terrible, but...

Does anyone honestly believe the Order would have gotten this far if those guys were still alive? The only reason they made it this far was because most of their real illusions and traps ran out. And it's shown that Girard's descendants were just as unreasonable as he, if not even moreso.

The Order would have been impossibly outgunned if these guys were still alive.

[Armitage]

Yes, sure, it's right to kill thousands of people just because otherwise a few of them would inconvenience you...

[Mikhailangelo]

Yes, sure, it's right to kill thousands of people just because otherwise a few of them would inconvenience you...

As the size of the explosion increases the number of social situations which are resolved by it decreases!

[Fishman]

They would ALSO have served as a significant inconvenience to everyone ELSE...and the OOTS doesn't actually WANT the gate, so they don't actually HAVE to succeed here, even failure would put the defenders on high alert.

[Adanedhel]

A Right Mistake is a contradictio in terminis

A convenient mistake however, I will grant you that :)

[ti'esar]

Yes, sure, it's right to kill thousands of people just because otherwise a few of them would inconvenience you...

He's not arguing that Familicide was good as such, merely that the results - or at least the destruction of the Draketooths - may have worked out in the Order's favor.

That said, I disagree, for the reasons given by Fishman - they may have been too paranoid to cooperate with the Order, but they certainly would have gotten in everyone else's way as well. Heck, I don't know if anyone would have even found the pyramid in the first place were the Draketooths still around.

[RMS Oceanic]

Paseo, the trouble with your premise is the Order's ease of progress also indicates how easy it will be for the Linear Guild and Team Evil to get that far too. If the Draketooth Clan were alive and in the mind to attack all comers regardless of what they were doing there, I think Roy would have the sense to withdraw and not let the Clan waste resources on them they could use to attack the other parties, with the Order possibly attacking them from behind.

[Icedaemon]

Even if the Draketooths had opposed the Order, Roy would have been smart enough to name-drop Xykon. The paranoid ginger family would have looked up the Lich - given how many of them were probably magi, at least some were likely good enough at scrying to discover that the lich had killed two of their ancestors old friends and was after the gates.

[Anarion]

It's possible that Paseo is correct in a more long-term sense. Ever since Blackwing told us what he saw in that rift, it hasn't been clear what's really going on with the snarl or the Order of the Scribble. So it may be the case that making the gate vulnerable, which will perhaps lead to its destruction, was the (accidentally) correct move in the long run.

[Mike Havran]

Sure, worldwide genocide is terrible, but...

Does anyone honestly believe the Order would have gotten this far if those guys were still alive? The only reason they made it this far was because most of their real illusions and traps ran out. And it's shown that Girard's descendants were just as unreasonable as he, if not even moreso.

The Order would have been impossibly outgunned if these guys were still alive.

Huh? The Order's mission was primarily to warn Girard about Xykon. They did not need to get to the pyramid at all. They would have completed their mission the very moment Draketooths scried the area after the booby trap had gone off and saw the message in sand.

Since Draketooths are fairly paranoid, they would be on watch against the Order, Sapphire Guard and Xykon. Still, mission accomplished.

So, the bottom line: V utterly screwed things up.

[Mike Havran]

It's possible that Paseo is correct in a more long-term sense. Ever since Blackwing told us what he saw in that rift, it hasn't been clear what's really going on with the snarl or the Order of the Scribble. So it may be the case that making the gate vulnerable, which will perhaps lead to its destruction, was the (accidentally) correct move in the long run.

Would that redeem Miko's destruction of Soon's gate as well?

I don't agree with your "long run" perspective. Since we know that the story will have a happy ending (for clearly-good character anyway), technically everything the protagonists do is correct in the long run.

[B. Dandelion]

No just no. Not in practical terms for reasons already described. But even more emphatically in thematic terms. I very much doubt that the strip would wind up endorsing a message of "genocide is bad, but in this case it worked out for the best." You just cannot get around how starkly political a statement like that is, and I don't think OOTS is the kind of comic that would make it, or try to repackage it as some kind of message about utilitarianism or silver linings or what have you. It's not gonna endorse genocide period, and that includes not endorsing it by "ironically" suggesting genocide solved their problems but was of course still bad.

[Paseo H]

Huh? The Order's mission was primarily to warn Girard about Xykon. They did not need to get to the pyramid at all. They would have completed their mission the very moment Draketooths scried the area after the booby trap had gone off and saw the message in sand.

Since Draketooths are fairly paranoid, they would be on watch against the Order, Sapphire Guard and Xykon. Still, mission accomplished.

So, the bottom line: V utterly screwed things up.

I'm looking at it from the omniscient perspective of the reader.

We know darn well that Xykon has both the means and motivation to steamroll this. If he could pwn Dorukon, I don't see Girard's red headed stepchildren faring better.

It's a bit less certain of a stomp with Tarquin, but he's also very genre savvy and has powerful friends, so I'm not fancying Girard's chances there either.

Therefore, we know that the best way to handle this is for the Order to waltz in and do whatever it takes to right the situation permanently.

And for that, Girard's clan needs to be out of the way because while I kinda sympathize with him, this is too big to to be hardnosed about, which you know they would be.

[theNater]

We know darn well that Xykon has both the means and motivation to steamroll this. If he could pwn Dorukon, I don't see Girard's red headed stepchildren faring better.
Soon's paladin order fared better than Dorukon. Why do you assume Girard's defenses were less potent than Soon's?

[Paseo H]

They fared better...after Xykon totally trolled them, sending them to an early grave, and came back as a ghost samurai army.

I'm pretty sure Girard had nothing that can compare to that.

[Hopeless]

Girard is an illusionist, exactly how many illusions actually work on undead?

Now we have Malack against Redcloak and I suspect Tarquin might be more than wary about allying with Xykon for obvisous reasons since I suspect he might actually know something about the lich given Nale mentioned working for someone who is clearly quite powerful and his fellow adventuring party has at least one psionicist so at the very least he would have asked about the lich since he has proven very genre savvy so he'll know whats eventually got to be coming which may explain why he's allowing Nale free rein since he knows Nale well enough to expect the doublecross and of course he's set up the counter measure for that eventuality...

Yes as unexpected as it may seem i think they're right I don't see Girard and his family being anything other than a threat to the order and as Elan pointed out once Nale mentioned their link to Soon's Paladin's and the fact they have built their family line by marrying outsiders before kidnapping their own children and as much money as they can carry they're hardly going to listen to reason any more than Girard himself!

Still I was expecting them to run into Haley's dad and his friend, I wonder where they got to?

[RMS Oceanic]

They fared better...after Xykon totally trolled them, sending them to an early grave, and came back as a ghost samurai army.

I'm pretty sure Girard had nothing that can compare to that.

With respect, that's a pretty broad assumption to make. Apart from the fact we may never know how effective Girard's defences would have been compared to the others, there may yet be some mechanism that proves troublesome for whoever encounters it first.

[Whiffet]

They fared better...after Xykon totally trolled them, sending them to an early grave, and came back as a ghost samurai army.

I'm pretty sure Girard had nothing that can compare to that.

Each gate so far has had some sort of amazing defense that slowed or stopped the bad guys. Dorukan's Gate had the rune that kept Team Evil from using it, Soon's had the ghost-paladins, andLirian's had the Guardian Virus.
I'd bet that Girard did, in fact, put something in place that would compare to that.

[FujinAkari]

Even if the Draketooths had opposed the Order, Roy would have been smart enough to name-drop Xykon. The paranoid ginger family would have looked up the Lich - given how many of them were probably magi, at least some were likely good enough at scrying to discover that the lich had killed two of their ancestors old friends and was after the gates.

Cloister says hi :)

[theNater]

Girard is an illusionist, exactly how many illusions actually work on undead?
Most of them. Undead are immune to mind-affecting illusions, which use illusory effects as an entry point to cause charms, stuns, damage, death from fright, or similar effects. Spells that disguise things, hide things, or make things that aren't there seem to be there work just fine. There's also a handful of illusion spells that use material from the Plane of Shadow to create real effects(as part of a larger illusory effect), which will work on undead just fine.

Each gate so far has had some sort of amazing defense that slowed or stopped the bad guys. Dorukan's Gate had the rune that kept Team Evil from using it, Soon's had the ghost-paladins, andLirian's had the Guardian Virus.
I'd bet that Girard did, in fact, put something in place that would compare to that.
Exactly. There is no support for a claim that Girard's defenses, as put in place by Girard, would be ignorable by Xykon.

[t209]

He did not make a right choice. The draketooths could have guided them through the traps and shot down Linear Guild.
But then this could not be an outcome since Draketooths are probably xephobic and chaotic family and massacre the OOTS too.
Edit: forget about the xenophobic part, I am going with probable time delay with bound and interrogated.

[Psyren]

Things only look semi-rosy now because the competent villains haven't arrived yet. Once Xykon and Redcloak pop in, the Order will seriously be up a creek.

[Mike Havran]

I'm looking at it from the omniscient perspective of the reader.

We know darn well that Xykon has both the means and motivation to steamroll this. If he could pwn Dorukon, I don't see Girard's red headed stepchildren faring better.
...
Therefore, we know that the best way to handle this is for the Order to waltz in and do whatever it takes to right the situation permanently.


We don't know that. At the second gate, Xykon had Redcloak and a big damn army of undead when he attacked Dorukan and knew exactly what to expect from him. He won, also due to not-so-optimal duelling strategy of Dorukan (it was discussed somewhere).

Xykon had Redcloak and a big damn army of hobgoblins when he attacked Soon. He barely survived (had Shojo not sent Miko against the Order, Xykon would have been probably destroyed right now).

Now, Xykon has just Redcloak and MitD, and would be unaware of the entire group of paranoid Girard's descendants. In-universe I would put his chances of besting the defenders to about 50% tops, and chances of getting the Gate 0%, because it will be booby trapped.

From reader's point of view is, of course, positive that Draketooths are out of the way, because the protagonists get another opportunity to shine.

[B. Dandelion]

I have a hard time getting past the notion that this idea is not so much rooted in current observation of what's going on (if we don't know the layout of the temple or the location of the Gate, how do we have any measurement of "far" by which we can say the Order "have come so far"?) but an absolute desire to see it happen that V's use of Familicide winds up being beneficial in some sense. Basically for no reason other than the notion is incredibly provocative and thus appealing -- it "goes against the grain," it "challenges the common wisdom".

Because it is provocative, and because it's antithetical to the simple and direct message of "genocide is bad," I think you can safely rule out the strip ever intentionally spelling it out that Familicide saved the day. I also think it's unlikely that it will embrace the lesser notion of "Familicide was helpful here and here only, but on the whole made the Order's job harder". Rich was by his own words reportedly disturbed by the idea that the state of fantasy roleplaying was such that he felt a need to make the case against genocide, and it's very clear that there are a substantial minority of readers who refused to acknowledge how evil Familicide was until the fate of the Draketooth clan was revealed. Why undermine his own message?

Of course the strip might wind up unintentionally allowing an argument that the world would have been doomed without Familicide. But I think that regardless of whether any such argument is really supportable, you will see people making it. Because, again, it's provocative and appeals to the sense of a controversial stance being a lone voice of sanity against a mindless politically correct horde. For that reason, I find arguments in that vein suspect to begin with.

This one in particular isn't even grasping at straws because it fails to even identify what straws are notable here. We don't know how "far" they are. We don't know how "far" they would have gotten dealing with the Draketooths. The latest strip doesn't even deal with the Order's progress but the Linear Guild, who are also making equal progress which undermines the entire notion of progress being good. The Order never necessarily had to find and station themselves next to the Gate in order to defend it. The best defense is often preventative -- warning the Draketooths would have been helpful in that regard, and had they lived the Order would have already put them on alert by setting off the trap in the desert. Preventative efforts were the bulk of the Draketooth defenses in the first place, and they've been shot to hell thanks to Vaarsuvius.

It's possible that, had the Draketooths lived, they would have been as hostile to the Order as anyone who truly wanted to seize a Gate for themselves, rather than prevent a Gate from falling into the wrong hands. That uncertain thesis does not hold up the additional claim that the Gate's better off with its original guardians dead. We don't know how well the Draketooths could have held off the Guild, but it's not like the Order's doing a bang-up job of it thus far either. Shouldn't we be waiting until they, I don't know, effectively beat back the intruders or something before we start crowing about how much better things are going with them in charge and the Draketooths dead (...and Draketooth corpses assisting the enemy)?

The only thing sustaining this theory is its inherent appeal to audacity.

[137beth]

For reasons already stated, I don't think genecide was a correct mistake.

However, fleeing with a passwall instead of climbing/flying out of the pit would was the correct choice, so he made the correct mistake in misinterpreting the mummy's mutterings.

[Forikroder]

Sure, worldwide genocide is terrible, but...

Does anyone honestly believe the Order would have gotten this far if those guys were still alive? The only reason they made it this far was because most of their real illusions and traps ran out. And it's shown that Girard's descendants were just as unreasonable as he, if not even moreso.

The Order would have been impossibly outgunned if these guys were still alive.

not neccesarily we have no idea what level the draketooths are so its likely there magic wouldnt be enough to keep the spellcasters the order has access to away from the pyramid

epic level spellcasters dont grow from trees theres no evidence that the draketooths had any high level illusionists and certainly no illusionists strong enough to stop them from jsut waltzing through everything with true seeing

it would have taken the order longer to find the pyramid but they would have eventually

also its possible that some of Girards epic magic IS still active which would ahve been the real obstacle for the order its highly likely that if the order had reached the Ziggurat they would have been able to explain things to the draketooths in satisfactory enough terms (the draketooths might even have been watching them since they set off Girards trap in the desert so its even possible the Draketooths would have been willing to talk with the order) the draketooths may be ian level paranoid (emphasis on the MAY part) but there still spellcasters who can tell if someones lying

[ThePhantasm]

Why does this feel like a "morally justified" thread?

No, V made a horrible mistake and she is paying the consequences moment by moment.

[Porthos]

They fared better...after Xykon totally trolled them, sending them to an early grave, and came back as a ghost samurai army.

This would be the same Xykon who came within six seconds of Final Death, yes?


I'm pretty sure Girard had nothing that can compare to that.

Why?

[Forikroder]

We don't know that. At the second gate, Xykon had Redcloak and a big damn army of undead when he attacked Dorukan and knew exactly what to expect from him. He won, also due to not-so-optimal duelling strategy of Dorukan (it was discussed somewhere).

Xykon had Redcloak and a big damn army of hobgoblins when he attacked Soon. He barely survived (had Shojo not sent Miko against the Order, Xykon would have been probably destroyed right now).

Now, Xykon has just Redcloak and MitD, and would be unaware of the entire group of paranoid Girard's descendants. In-universe I would put his chances of besting the defenders to about 50% tops, and chances of getting the Gate 0%, because it will be booby trapped.

From reader's point of view is, of course, positive that Draketooths are out of the way, because the protagonists get another opportunity to shine.

woa woa woa woa this is completely false

Xykon knows the exact coordinates of the gate, hes going to teleport literally on top of the Ziggurat so he right there bypasses 90% of the gates defences in one spell

with his epic magic not a single spell anyone in the draketooth clan can cast will faze him unless there somehow epic level spellcasters in there

the only possible threat to Xykon is Girards magic which possibly is not even active still

to Xykon the gate is practically unguarded especially with the MiTD to walk ahead of them and soak traps


I'd bet that Girard did, in fact, put something in place that would compare to that.

there ahve been mention of riddles, i wouldnt be surprised if Girard devised a spell that hid the gate in an alternate dimension or in some sort of maze that was impossible to cheat and in order to get into that dimension you had to be able to solve the riddles and puzzles

[Anarion]

Things only look semi-rosy now because the competent villains haven't arrived yet. Once Xykon and Redcloak pop in, the Order will seriously be up a creek.

I'm confused why several people are convinced that Xykon is going to get involved in the current events at the gate. The oracle's prediction says that between Girard's gate and Kraagor's gate, Xykon will be at Girard's first. But that doesn't mean now. The gate could get destroyed due to IFCC intervention, everyone leaves, and then we see Xykon teleport there to find a desolate ruin, without even having any corpses left to animate thanks to Malack.

It's possible that Xykon will put in an appearance soon, but I'm not sure that the current scene would benefit from that many more personalities in it. Tarquin and Nale are already looking to butt heads pretty hard.

[Forikroder]

I'm confused why several people are convinced that Xykon is going to get involved in the current events at the gate. The oracle's prediction says that between Girard's gate and Kraagor's gate, Xykon will be at Girard's first. But that doesn't mean now. The gate could get destroyed due to IFCC intervention, everyone leaves, and then we see Xykon teleport there to find a desolate ruin, without even having any corpses left to animate thanks to Malack.

It's possible that Xykon will put in an appearance soon, but I'm not sure that the current scene would benefit from that many more personalities in it. Tarquin and Nale are already looking to butt heads pretty hard.
Xykon saids there going to teleport to the desert once REdclaok does some of his clericy mojo so within 24 hours of Redcloak gating them out there going to be at the Ziggurat

its hard to know when Xykon will arrive but its going to be soon Team Evil are not soem gag villains, there not going to show up after the show is over for some cheap laughs if any villain does that it would be Nale

besides if the LG is strong enough to force the order to destroy the gate then they literally have no chance against team evil so team evil showing up after the gate is gone is jsut bad storytelling

he probably wont show up right now, theres going to be some sort of closure in the OoTS VS LG thing first but hes definently going to be relevant this arc

[Paseo H]

Incase anyone has any doubts, let me just say that from a moral perspective, what V did was absolutely, epically wrong, and will have to get super serious about repentance if he wants any hope of escaping "the great fire below."

[Anarion]

Xykon saids there going to teleport to the desert once REdclaok does some of his clericy mojo so within 24 hours of Redcloak gating them out there going to be at the Ziggurat

its hard to know when Xykon will arrive but its going to be soon Team Evil are not soem gag villains, there not going to show up after the show is over for some cheap laughs if any villain does that it would be Nale

besides if the LG is strong enough to force the order to destroy the gate then they literally have no chance against team evil so team evil showing up after the gate is gone is jsut bad storytelling

he probably wont show up right now, theres going to be some sort of closure in the OoTS VS LG thing first but hes definently going to be relevant this arc

I don't agree. Oh, I mean the 24 hour teleport does make it likely that Xykon will arrive soon, but again we don't really know what day it is for the Order vs. what day it is for Xykon. We also don't even know if the events at the gate will last a full day, so even if the Xykon teleport is happening soon, it might be too late to affect events happening at Girard's gate.

Also, I don't think we can decide what would or would not be bad storytelling without more information. This situation doesn't just have the Linear Guild, it also has Tarquin and Malack. Moreover, V is off alone and potentially deeper in the temple than anyone else, which could open the situation up to direct intervention by the IFCC. Xykon being added to that mix could end up making the scene too busy and detract from other events. Xykon tends to dominate a room, so if he's there you can't really tell anybody else's story.

[Whiffet]

I'm confused why several people are convinced that Xykon is going to get involved in the current events at the gate. The oracle's prediction says that between Girard's gate and Kraagor's gate, Xykon will be at Girard's first. But that doesn't mean now. The gate could get destroyed due to IFCC intervention, everyone leaves, and then we see Xykon teleport there to find a desolate ruin, without even having any corpses left to animate thanks to Malack.

It's possible that Xykon will put in an appearance soon, but I'm not sure that the current scene would benefit from that many more personalities in it. Tarquin and Nale are already looking to butt heads pretty hard.

That depends. The way I see it, if a gate is destroyed, it is gone. You can't be near something that isn't there. So Xykon has to be near the gate before it is destroyed. Otherwise he's just near the rift. It's possible the Giant sees it differently, though.

[Forikroder]

That depends. The way I see it, if a gate is destroyed, it is gone. You can't be near something that isn't there. So Xykon has to be near the gate before it is destroyed. Otherwise he's just near the rift. It's possible the Giant sees it differently, though.

very good point, the gate is a magical construct created by the order of the scribble to contain the rift, the rift is not the gate (though it could be considered A gate it is not Girards gate) so therefore Xykon has to apear before the gate goes Kerblooie

though he could apear 2 seconds before it goes kerblooie


Moreover, V is off alone and potentially deeper in the temple than anyone else, which could open the situation up to direct intervention by the IFCC.

words cannot express how tired i am of people saying stuf like this -.-

[dps]

For reasons already stated, I don't think genecide was a correct mistake.

However, fleeing with a passwall instead of climbing/flying out of the pit would was the correct choice, so he made the correct mistake in misinterpreting the mummy's mutterings.

Yeah, when I first saw the thread title, that's what I thought it would be about.

[Anarion]

very good point, the gate is a magical construct created by the order of the scribble to contain the rift, the rift is not the gate (though it could be considered A gate it is not Girards gate) so therefore Xykon has to apear before the gate goes Kerblooie

though he could apear 2 seconds before it goes kerblooie



words cannot express how tired i am of people saying stuf like this -.-


I haven't seen anyone complain about V and the IFCC. Why are you tired of it?

[Forikroder]

I haven't seen anyone complain about V and the IFCC. Why are you tired of it?

because like every single thread theres always someone going "omg what if the IFCC take control of V now, you know they didnt specifically say they ahve to wait for V to die" like they jsut had some genius epiphany and jsut thought of it right that second and they dont think anyone else could possibly have thought of it

its jsut one of those theories that it seems like everyone assumes is right despite no evidence to support it

[Whiffet]

Okay, I'd like to cut this off right now.

The most popular belief on the forums is that the IFCC can take control of V while he/she is still alive. There are some people who disagree. We can't know for sure who is right until it actually happens.

It's fine to have debates on the forums, but when the same people are using the same arguments over and over it eventually gets old. So how about we not do it this time and keep thinking about how the Order might be interacting with the Draketooths if Familicide hadn't happened. And maybe what we would expect from Xykon.

I can't help but wonder if Ian was familiar with the Draketooths in some way. Not through being related, obviously, but we'll probably see him again and we don't know where he ran off to. Suppose the Draketooths were willing to just give Haley a chance to explain? Probably not, but it's something to wonder about.

[Anarion]

Okay, forget the IFCC then.

My point was that the passwall spell places V on a lower level of the temple than anyone else. Being on a lower level means V might reach the gate first. And V reaching the gate first, alone, could lead to all sorts of consequences, such as setting off a special defense put in place by Girard or even giving us a major reveal about the nature of the snarl.

Either way, it could be oddly fortuitous that V is in this position, even though there isn't any way to actually make up for the familicide spell.

[Mike Havran]

woa woa woa woa this is completely false

Xykon knows the exact coordinates of the gate, hes going to teleport literally on top of the Ziggurat so he right there bypasses 90% of the gates defences in one spell

with his epic magic not a single spell anyone in the draketooth clan can cast will faze him unless there somehow epic level spellcasters in there

the only possible threat to Xykon is Girards magic which possibly is not even active still

to Xykon the gate is practically unguarded especially with the MiTD to walk ahead of them and soak traps


Thanks to the Order, the Draketooths would have been fully aware and ready for epic lich sorcerer (well, if V hadn't exterminated them). Girard is not alive anymore, but I'm sure as hell he had prepared his children even for an epic-level encounter (he was on guard against epic paladin, could also easily suspected Dorukan - we don't know if those two got along well).

Roy here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) explicitely says "high-end phantasms and stuff", which can only mean they were some pretty powerful casters among the defenders.

If anything, the Draketooths would be able to hold Xykon for long enough so one of them could bloww the Gate up and foil Xykon again. But I expect they would gave him run for his money first. How else do you expect the Order to prevain against him, if the Draketooths can't?

[Forikroder]

The most popular belief on the forums is that the IFCC can take control of V while he/she is still alive.

which is only popular because people like to get behind the craziest theory possible without any evidence at all then claim they "called it" if it happens


Thanks to the Order, the Draketooths would have been fully aware and ready for epic lich sorcerer (well, if V hadn't exterminated them). Girard is not alive anymore, but I'm sure as hell he had prepared his children even for an epic-level encounter (he was on guard against epic paladin, could also easily suspected Dorukan - we don't know if those two got along well).

so these people are so paranoid they wouldnt ever trust anything the order saids, except what they say?

i dont see how they would prepare for an epic level lich aside from blowing up the gate, epic magic can only be countered by epic magic


If anything, the Draketooths would be able to hold Xykon for long enough so one of them could bloww the Gate up and foil Xykon again. But I expect they would gave him run for his money first. How else do you expect the Order to prevain against him, if the Draketooths can't?

the order are possibly higher level then the draketooths being active adventurers, but theres literally no way for the order to beat Xykon in a fair fight

[lio45]

Exactly. There is no support for a claim that Girard's defenses, as put in place by Girard, would be ignorable by Xykon.

And there's even less support for the completely insane idea that the gate is somehow safer now that the defenses are gone and that a midhighish-level party of 6 is alone to defend it...

Moral issues aside, there's just no way that killing all the gate's defenders (clearly natural allies, even though paranoid) could be a good gate defense move.

[Forikroder]

And there's even less support for the completely insane idea that the gate is somehow safer now that the defenses are gone and that a midhighish-level party of 6 is alone to defend it...

Moral issues aside, there's just no way that killing all the gate's defenders (clearly natural allies, even though paranoid) could be a good gate defense move.

except it would be likely that by the team the OoTS managed to find the Ziggurat Xykon would have already burned it down and gotten his invincible power

which is marginably different then him killing the OoTS and then getting his invincible power

[Mike Havran]

which is only popular because people like to get behind the craziest theory possible without any evidence at all then claim they "called it" if it happens

Actually, I do not remember anyone who would not think the IFFC will claim V's soul while she is alive, except for you. That's more than popular. But imagine the praise if you'll be correct :smallsmile:


so these people are so paranoid they wouldnt ever trust anything the order saids, except what they say?

They would prepare for both alternatives. They certainly know the gates are being destroyed rapidly, so even if they are paranoid the will not dismiss the Order's warning.


i dont see how they would prepare for an epic level lich aside from blowing up the gate, epic magic can only be countered by epic magic

We don't know what resources they had in the pyramid - what was left by Girard and what they managed to accumulate over those 60 years. Since they were crazy survivalists they likely squirreled away anything that could come handy. All in all they would be in much better shape to fight Xykon than Order who are unfamiliar with the pyramid, have a single wizard who's about to go insane and have the Guild chasing their asses.

[Forikroder]

We don't know what resources they had in the pyramid - what was left by Girard and what they managed to accumulate over those 60 years. Since they were crazy survivalists they likely squirreled away anything that could come handy. All in all they would be in much better shape to fight Xykon than Order who are unfamiliar with the pyramid, have a single wizard who's about to go insane and have the Guild chasing their asses.

the guilds more of a danger to the draketooths then they are to the order since Z has his spell resistance and a build specifcally built to counter spellcaster and Tarquin has his ring of true seeing

[Mike Havran]

the guilds more of a danger to the draketooths then they are to the order since Z has his spell resistance and a build specifcally built to counter spellcaster and Tarquin has his ring of true seeing

I don't get your point. The Guild would probably not confront the Draketooths at all, if they were alive. Tarquin specifically said they would rather watch from the safe distance how Draketooths handle the Order. Nale attacked them because the Order didn't encounter resistance in the pyramid.

[Arcane_Secrets]

Yes, sure, it's right to kill thousands of people just because otherwise a few of them would inconvenience you...

They also lost the chance, however slender it might've been, to convince any of the Draketooths that they were potential allies instead of enemies, so now they have to slog through all of the traps that were left behind without the help of anyone who could've shown them safe paths or otherwise disabled them.

[Kish]

i dont see how they would prepare for an epic level lich aside from blowing up the gate, epic magic can only be countered by epic magic
So I take it you think the climax of the comic is going to involve Roy acknowledging that he was wrong and his father was right.

[Forikroder]

I don't get your point. The Guild would probably not confront the Draketooths at all, if they were alive. Tarquin specifically said they would rather watch from the safe distance how Draketooths handle the Order. Nale attacked them because the Order didn't encounter resistance in the pyramid.

...

when did he say that?


So I take it you think the climax of the comic is going to involve Roy acknowledging that he was wrong and his father was right.

thats like a miko level logic leap there

[Kish]

...
thats like a miko level logic leap there
Oh?

Then perhaps you'd like to explain how Roy, a fighter, will defeat Xykon? Will he multiclass to a magic-using class (...without admitting implicitly or explicitly that this means his father was right) and gain 21 levels before defeating Xykon?

[Forikroder]

Oh?

Then perhaps you'd like to explain how Roy, a fighter, will defeat Xykon? Will he multiclass to a magic-using class (...without admitting implicitly or explicitly that this means his father was right) and gain 21 levels before defeating Xykon?

how will Roy defeat Xykon? he wont

how will The Order of the Stick defeat Xykon? hard to tell maybe theyll get to epic level before the final confrontation

[Kish]

Yep, you're arguing that the climax of the comic is going to involve Roy admitting that he was wrong and his father was right.

Do you understand how that would be what it meant if, say, Vaarsuvius played the most important role in defeating Xykon? Maybe not. But I'm sufficiently confident that other people will.

[Forikroder]

Yep, you're arguing that the climax of the comic is going to involve Roy admitting that he was wrong and his father was right.

Do you understand how that would be what it meant if, say, Vaarsuvius played the most important role in defeating Xykon? Maybe not. But I'm sufficiently confident that other people will.

i dont get it, i say one thing and you assume the exact opposite you make no sense

if anything Roys starmetal sword has the most chance of knocking Xykons head off in fact i dont get Roys dad keep talkinga bout how useless his sword is since he can still cut off parts of Xykon

[Winter]

Does anyone honestly believe the Order would have gotten this far if those guys were still alive?

You are grossly misunderstanding what the goal of the Order is. It is not "to get far". It is to "prevent the gates to fall into the wrong hands" and also "stop Xykon, for good".
Both of their goals have been massively endangered by Vaarsuvius mistake.

Also, you cannot kill innocents just to "get someone you dislike", no matter what the "someone you dislike has done".

Or to put it as question: In a case where you and all your family (everyone who is related to you and also who is related to any of them) to drop dead right now just because someone who is very distantly related to you and is not even known to you is some very nasty baddy 1000s of miles away (imagine a very nasty dicator) would your last thought be "Yes, that was worth it!"?
Not really, no?

[ThePhantasm]

i dont get it, i say one thing and you assume the exact opposite you make no sense

if anything Roys starmetal sword has the most chance of knocking Xykons head off in fact i dont get Roys dad keep talkinga bout how useless his sword is since he can still cut off parts of Xykon

Kish's point seems logical to me. You are saying only epic magic can defeat epic magic. Roy doesn't believe that, but Eugene does seem to. Ergo, if you are right, then Roy will be proven wrong.

I'm not sure what point you are making about Roy's sword. A bit hard to parse out your sentences at times since you use no punctuation. But you've already argued that Roy won't defeat Xykon, so whatever point you are making about his sword seems moot.

[Jay R]

The Order did not want to get "this far"; they wanted to get just far enough to talk to Girard. That goal has been made impossible.

The Order did not want to weaken the gate's defenses; they wanted to strengthen them. They have in fact weakened them.

The Order did not want to lead the Linear Guild or Team Evil to the gate; they are doing so.

Every actual goal of the Order has been made harder or impossible by V's action.

[Kish]

To be fair, "Talk to Girard" seems to have become impossible* years ago, when Girard died of old age.

*Or at least requiring of Speak with Dead.

[Forikroder]

Kish's point seems logical to me. You are saying only epic magic can defeat epic magic. Roy doesn't believe that, but Eugene does seem to. Ergo, if you are right, then Roy will be proven wrong.

I'm not sure what point you are making about Roy's sword. A bit hard to parse out your sentences at times since you use no punctuation. But you've already argued that Roy won't defeat Xykon, so whatever point you are making about his sword seems moot.

right roy wont but the order will

Roy might get the finishing blow on him

[Emperordaniel]

Roy getting to land the finishing blow on Xykon still proves that Eugene was right if it was Vaarsuvius who did most of the damage (and I'm pretty sure it was stated during the Battle of Azure City that Roy and Vaarsuvius are the only members of the Order who can significantly injure Xykon). Thus, if the Order defeats Xykon for good, it basically boils down to either a Vaarsuvius-dominated victory (arcane) or a Roy-dominated victory (not arcane).

[King of Nowhere]

story wise is difficult to tell, but i'd go for a realistic point of view.
from a realistic point of view the order is against 2 teams far stronger than they are, with no advantage of any kind, and that is much worse than being unable to talk to the draketooths because you can't find them or they refuse to listen.
story wise, the order will manage to win somehow, so all will turn out well.
but, story wise, they would also have been able to talk to the draketooths somehow.
So it never was the right mistake if we keep a unified perspective on the story.

However, if we consider the current plotline storywise, and the alternative story where familicide never happened in a realistic pow, then it becomes a conveniente mistake.

[Forikroder]

story wise is difficult to tell, but i'd go for a realistic point of view.
from a realistic point of view the order is against 2 teams far stronger than they are, with no advantage of any kind, and that is much worse than being unable to talk to the draketooths because you can't find them or they refuse to listen.
story wise, the order will manage to win somehow, so all will turn out well.
but, story wise, they would also have been able to talk to the draketooths somehow.
So it never was the right mistake if we keep a unified perspective on the story.

However, if we consider the current plotline storywise, and the alternative story where familicide never happened in a realistic pow, then it becomes a conveniente mistake.

they are against one team of relatively equal strength and one team miles ahead of them

[ThePhantasm]

right roy wont but the order will

Roy might get the finishing blow on him

So in other words you admit that you were wrong in thinking that only epic magic can defeat epic magic?

[Forikroder]

So in other words you admit that you were wrong in thinking that only epic magic can defeat epic magic?

no the only reason i say roy might deliver the coup de grace is because it would be a cool scene thats all

and if Roy does get the final blow something aside from the order will have made it possible unless the order manages to gain another 5~ levels before the final confrontation with Xykon

[ThePhantasm]

no the only reason i say roy might deliver the coup de grace is because it would be a cool scene thats all

This is going in a circle. Here's the salient point: you are saying that only epic magic can defeat epic magic. Ergo, Roy's belief to the contrary is wrong in your framework, even if he is the one who effectively "kills" Xykon via a finishing blow. So the digression about the coup de grace is merely an irrelevant tangent. Kish's logic still holds: you are basically arguing that Roy is wrong and Eugene is right. Right?

[Psyren]

So I take it you think the climax of the comic is going to involve Roy acknowledging that he was wrong and his father was right.

Come now. When Roy beat Xykon using epic magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) before, I doubt he was thinking "gee, Dad was right all along, I should have learned this stuff, it's awesome."

[Mike Havran]

when did he say that?


He did not said that in word, however notice strip 821 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html). Tarquin wanted the Order to clear obstacles with their toil, and then ambush them and take over the Gate. The Guild saw them clear the traps (that means no warm welcome from the Draketooths), but saw no resistance or combat either. So Nale figured (correctly) that the pyramid lacks any defenders and Order is just doing their PC character developement stuff, and ordered Z to soak them in acid to get them moving.

If the Draketooths were alive and biting, the Guild would just observe and wait for the outcome

[Forikroder]

This is going in a circle. Here's the salient point: you are saying that only epic magic can defeat epic magic. Ergo, Roy's belief to the contrary is wrong in your framework, even if he is the one who effectively "kills" Xykon via a finishing blow. So the digression about the coup de grace is merely an irrelevant tangent. Kish's logic still holds: you are basically arguing that Roy is wrong and Eugene is right. Right?

well technically i suppose, but Eugene is wrong too the only reason Roy cant kill him is because of the insane level difference as Soon demonstrated very well Roy would put up as much of a fight as a wizard then as a fighter

(well that and Roys inability to fly and deal with magic)


He did not said that in word, however notice strip 821. Tarquin wanted the Order to clear obstacles with their toil, and then ambush them and take over the Gate. The Guild saw them clear the traps (that means no warm welcome from the Draketooths), but saw no resistance or combat either. So Nale figured (correctly) that the pyramid lacks any defenders and Order is just doing their PC character developement stuff, and ordered Z to soak them in acid to get them moving.

If the Draketooths were alive and biting, the Guild would just observe and wait for the outcome

thats not really waht he said he was just saying that as villains the LG is immune to traps and always find the shortcut to the end goal the heros always miss

[Jay R]

Roy getting to land the finishing blow on Xykon still proves that Eugene was right if it was Vaarsuvius who did most of the damage ....

Have you read On the Origin of the PCs? What Eugene said was that Roy should not bother to try to take on Xykon at all, but should only tell Julia about it so she can. If Roy's party defeats Xykon, then Eugene was completely wrong.

And to everybody saying that only epic magic can beat epic magic: Frodo beat Sauron. Harry Potter beat Voldemort. Luke in a one-man X-wing beat a Death Star. It is not true, and has never been true, that the strongest side - even the overwhelmingly stronger side - always wins.

[Forikroder]

Have you read On the Origin of the PCs? What Eugene said was that Roy should not bother to try to take on Xykon at all, but should only tell Julia about it so she can. If Roy's party defeats Xykon, then Eugene was completely wrong.

And to everybody saying that only epic magic can beat epic magic: Frodo beat Sauron. Harry Potter beat Voldemort. Luke in a one-man X-wing beat a Death Star. It is not true, and has never been true, that the strongest side - even the overwhelmingly stronger side - always wins.

none of those are a good comparison

Roy beating Xykon in a one on one fight would be like Hommunculus being beaten by edward in a one on one fight while Hommunculus had god and all the souls of amestris

[Chessgeek]

none of those are a good comparison

Roy beating Xykon in a one on one fight would be like Hommunculus being beaten by edward in a one on one fight while Hommunculus had god and all the souls of amestris

Funny, I once heard a story about this guy named David and someone called Goliath...

Not that it's likely, of course, but upsets do happen.

[Forikroder]

Funny, I once heard a story about this guy named David and someone called Goliath...

Not that it's likely, of course, but upsets do happen.

would be more like david VS death star

[Anarion]

Every actual goal of the Order has been made harder or impossible by V's action.

If the Order's goals are mistaken, it could still be possible that V's actions will end up helping out in one way or another. That doesn't make it the "right" mistake because you can't ever make genocide right, but it might end up being convenient.

We don't know enough about the gates, the snarl, and the world inside the rift to judge what is good or bad right now. Could be that weakening the gates will further the Order's ultimate goals.

It could be similar to Golden Sun, wherein you spent the first game trying to prevent anyone from lighting the lighthouses and then the second game you worked really hard to light every lighthouse.


Roy getting to land the finishing blow on Xykon still proves that Eugene was right if it was Vaarsuvius who did most of the damage (and I'm pretty sure it was stated during the Battle of Azure City that Roy and Vaarsuvius are the only members of the Order who can significantly injure Xykon). Thus, if the Order defeats Xykon for good, it basically boils down to either a Vaarsuvius-dominated victory (arcane) or a Roy-dominated victory (not arcane).

This might not be true anymore. Haley discussed during that battle that she couldn't hurt Xykon, but that she should have found a way to hurt him because as a rogue it's her job to figure stuff like that out. She's had time since then, and will have more time in the future before any climactic confrontation. Durkon's clerical powers have also increased, and it's possible that Elan or Belkar might get a power boost before all is said and done (depending how long everyone lives of course).


Also regarding the epic magic discussion, let's stop dancing around the conclusion and note that plenty of things other than epic magic can beat epic magic. For example, adequately large armies, non-magical protection abilities, grappling (possibly with dispel or an antimagic field), surprise tactics, deities (without using their own epic magic), optimized non-magic character builds etc.


Edit:

would be more like david VS death star

And since you threw a hanging slider, I can't resist. Three words. Thermal exhaust port.

[Forikroder]

Also regarding the epic magic discussion, let's stop dancing around the conclusion and note that plenty of things other than epic magic can beat epic magic. For example, adequately large armies, non-magical protection abilities, grappling (possibly with dispel or an antimagic field), surprise tactics, deities (without using their own epic magic), optimized non-magic character builds etc.

the diety thing? thats cheating cause gods are like 1 billion levels higher thena non god

and armies? familicide wiped out thousands of people in one spell


Three words. Thermal exhaust port.

ya not sure how many stones you have to sling into a thermal exhaust port before it blows, but imma guess alot

[Anarion]

the diety thing? thats cheating cause gods are like 1 billion levels higher thena non god

and armies? familicide wiped out thousands of people in one spell



ya not sure how many stones you have to sling into a thermal exhaust port before it blows, but imma guess alot

a) deity, not diety
b) you didn't specify and levels aren't epic magic
c) I said adequately large armies. If the spell wipes out thousands, send millions

[Mike Havran]

thats not really waht he said he was just saying that as villains the LG is immune to traps and always find the shortcut to the end goal the heros always miss

OK, that's your interpretation. Mine is different, the one I mentioned before. No problem with that.

[Forikroder]

a) deity, not diety
b) you didn't specify and levels aren't epic magic
c) I said adequately large armies. If the spell wipes out thousands, send millions

well technically any magic used by an epic level wizard/sorcerer could be considered epic magic so any spell a diety casts is epic magic

as for C, the only army large enough to take out an epic mage either consists of tons of high level adventurers

and even then the epic level mage can just whittle it down slowly and escape when things start looking dangerous

before this argument gets too crazy i will say while it is conceivable to beat epic level magic without epic level magic the cost to doing so is pretty inconcievable

[Emperordaniel]

Have you read On the Origin of the PCs? What Eugene said was that Roy should not bother to try to take on Xykon at all, but should only tell Julia about it so she can. If Roy's party defeats Xykon, then Eugene was completely wrong.

Ah, thanks for telling me that - I haven't read On the Origin of PCs yet due to where I currently live (Southern Russia) and the fact that my parents don't like to buy things online, so I obviously missed that. :smallredface:

[ThePhantasm]

would be more like david VS death star



And since you threw a hanging slider, I can't resist. Three words. Thermal exhaust port.

That was just too easy. :smalltongue:

Bad example, Forikroder.

[Forikroder]

That was just too easy. :smalltongue:

Bad example, Forikroder.

last time i checked Davi doesnt own a Xwing fighter nor would he even be able to fly one if he did nor would he have the force powers to actually land the shot

so no the small joke is still accurate

[Jay R]

none of those are a good comparison

Roy beating Xykon in a one on one fight would be like Hommunculus being beaten by edward in a one on one fight while Hommunculus had god and all the souls of amestris

Exactly backwards. No discussion of a one-on-one fight is a valid comparison. Roy would not engage Xykon in a one-on-one fight. He has a party, remember?

Just as with Sauron, Voldemort, and the Death Star, the way to defeat a vastly more powerful entity is with something he doesn't know about - just as when Roy defeated Xykon the first time, with the power of the gate.

[Forikroder]

Exactly backwards. No discussion of a one-on-one fight is a valid comparison. Roy would not engage Xykon in a one-on-one fight. He has a party, remember?

Just as with Sauron, Voldemort, and the Death Star, the way to defeat a vastly more powerful entity is with something he doesn't know about - just as when Roy defeated Xykon the first time, with the power of the gate.

exactly, im sure with the Order theyll manage to be competant enough to find some sort of deus ex machina to bash Xykon over the head with

[Paseo H]

they are against one team of relatively equal strength and one team miles ahead of them

Exactly.

Someone earlier noted that because the Order is having a relatively easy time, that means its just as easy for the baddies.

However...both sets of baddies would be in a better position to fight their way through the defenses, especially Xykon, so this advantage is really in favor of the good guys, because they would otherwise be obligated to reason with Girard's unreasonable kin, thus putting them at a disadvantage.

[Mike Havran]

Exactly.

Someone earlier noted that because the Order is having a relatively easy time, that means its just as easy for the baddies.

However...both sets of baddies would be in a better position to fight their way through the defenses, especially Xykon, so this advantage is really in favor of the good guys, because they would otherwise be obligated to reason with Girard's unreasonable kin, thus putting them at a disadvantage.

I disagree. First of all, it is not at all certain the Draketooths would be unreasonable, or even hostile towards the Order. As Haley pointed out, they would be magically able to confirm that the Order is actually trying to protect the gate, not to conquer it. They probably won't outright trust them, but may very well offer them shelter and put them in the first line of defense. Then the Order would be backed up by some serious force, instead of trying to prepare an ambush in an unknown territory.

Even if the Draketooths told the Order to scram, they would be in a better position to ensure the Gate won't fall to TE or LG's hands. One of thirty or so defenders can easily destroy the gate if the battle is going wrong.

From "reader's" point of view, how do you expect that this arc is going to finish? If it is something like "the Girard's gate will be destroyed, none of TE dies, none of the Order dies, all move to Gate 5", than this could be achieved by Draketooths only. Familicide was useless at best, then, and only meant a lot of toil and risk at the Order's part.

[ThePhantasm]

last time i checked Davi doesnt own a Xwing fighter nor would he even be able to fly one if he did nor would he have the force powers to actually land the shot

so no the small joke is still accurate

Luke didn't require force training to make the shot. He and his friends used to bullseye womp rats back home. The Force only helped him focus. As for the X-Wing, that is simply a weapon, and a very very small one at that compared to the Death Star. Almost like how David's slingshot was a small weapon for use against a giant.... :smallamused:

[2xMachina]

Illusion is one of the weakest school of magic.

Oops, did my True Sight just negated all your illusions?

Oops, did my permanent Arcane Sight just see all your illusions?

Oops, did my Detect Magic (a cantrip) just detected all your illusion auras?

[Icedaemon]

Roy getting to land the finishing blow on Xykon still proves that Eugene was right if it was Vaarsuvius who did most of the damage (and I'm pretty sure it was stated during the Battle of Azure City that Roy and Vaarsuvius are the only members of the Order who can significantly injure Xykon). Thus, if the Order defeats Xykon for good, it basically boils down to either a Vaarsuvius-dominated victory (arcane) or a Roy-dominated victory (not arcane).

If Durkon survives until the final battle and learns to take centre stage or dies soon enough for Malack to replace him, Divine magic might play an equal or larger part to Arcane.

[Lissibith]

Honestly, I don't think that Roy admitting that his father may have had a point is necessarily a bad thing or a 'loss' for Roy.

It's set up so that on the surface, their conflict is magic vs muscle. But really, when you look at their personalities, I think the biggest conflict is in a more fundamental outlook. Eugene is very self-absorbed. He believes in magic above all else because he pretty literally cannot think beyond himself. He can't work well with others. He can't admit when he was wrong. He never learned the lesson V got beaten into him.

So yeah, defeating Xykon with only his warrior skills would be a repudiation of Eugene for Roy. But I think an even bigger one would be for him to say, I'm not buying into your stupid, selfish false dichotomy anymore. I'm going to work together with these other people with their other important skills and together we'll be stronger than you ever were alone, with all your magic.

And if Roy in the end feels he HAS to defeat Xykon alone with his warrior skills, then even if he succeeds, he's also become as close-minded as his father, and I have a hard time seeing that as a good thing.

[Forikroder]

Luke didn't require force training to make the shot. He and his friends used to bullseye womp rats back home. The Force only helped him focus. As for the X-Wing, that is simply a weapon, and a very very small one at that compared to the Death Star. Almost like how David's slingshot was a small weapon for use against a giant.... :smallamused:

but the point still remains, that DAvid lacks in any sort of Xwing fighter or any sort of practice with it so it would be impossible for David to take down the death star alone

just like its impossible for Roy to take down Xykon alone, hence the other 5 members helping him

[Anarion]

Luke didn't require force training to make the shot. He and his friends used to bullseye womp rats back home. The Force only helped him focus. As for the X-Wing, that is simply a weapon, and a very very small one at that compared to the Death Star. Almost like how David's slingshot was a small weapon for use against a giant.... :smallamused:

You have a surprisingly high endurance for slamming your head into a brick wall. I am impressed.


Illusion is one of the weakest school of magic.

Oops, did my True Sight just negated all your illusions?

Oops, did my permanent Arcane Sight just see all your illusions?

Oops, did my Detect Magic (a cantrip) just detected all your illusion auras?

Although it's true that illusions can be negated by certain magical sight spells, that does not make illusion a weak school. Regular traps and the use of antimagic fields can be all that's needed to make the ilussions suddenly useful again. Also, not everyone has those spells available. Indeed, I don't know that anyone in OOTS world has a permanent arcane sight setup. And even with those spells, many illusions are quasi-real and can imitate the full effects of different spells even when they're revealed (e.g. shadow conjuration and shadow evocation).


Honestly, I don't think that Roy admitting that his father may have had a point is necessarily a bad thing or a 'loss' for Roy.

It's set up so that on the surface, their conflict is magic vs muscle. But really, when you look at their personalities, I think the biggest conflict is in a more fundamental outlook. Eugene is very self-absorbed. He believes in magic above all else because he pretty literally cannot think beyond himself. He can't work well with others. He can't admit when he was wrong. He never learned the lesson V got beaten into him.

So yeah, defeating Xykon with only his warrior skills would be a repudiation of Eugene for Roy. But I think an even bigger one would be for him to say, I'm not buying into your stupid, selfish false dichotomy anymore. I'm going to work together with these other people with their other important skills and together we'll be stronger than you ever were alone, with all your magic.

And if Roy in the end feels he HAS to defeat Xykon alone with his warrior skills, then even if he succeeds, he's also become as close-minded as his father, and I have a hard time seeing that as a good thing.

I agree with you. The conversation came up in the context of the quote "only epic magic can beat epic magic," however, and I think Roy would reject that premise. Lots of things can beat epic magic, possibly including the Order working as a team, and even a team that includes some magic as part of its overall whole.

[Emperordaniel]

but the point still remains, that DAvid lacks in any sort of Xwing fighter or any sort of practice with it

Just to point out, Luke also lacked an X-Wing fighter; he was given one of them to use in the battle like, 15 minutes before the battle started. 12-24 hours, at most. :smallamused:

[Dr.Epic]

Sure, worldwide genocide is terrible, but...

Does anyone honestly believe the Order would have gotten this far if those guys were still alive? The only reason they made it this far was because most of their real illusions and traps ran out. And it's shown that Girard's descendants were just as unreasonable as he, if not even moreso.

The Order would have been impossibly outgunned if these guys were still alive.

You know who else would have been outgunned: the Linear Guild. You know, the bad guys trying to get the Gate.

[Paseo H]

You know who else would have been outgunned: the Linear Guild. You know, the bad guys trying to get the Gate.

Under normal circumstances, sure, but Tarquin and Malack are with them.

And the Kobold, who for all we know might really be Lord Pun Pun in disguise.

[Incom]

And with an epic level lich practically knocking on the door, to boot.

[theNater]

Under normal circumstances, sure, but Tarquin and Malack are with them.
So far, gate defenses are 3 for 3 in terms of significantly inconveniencing Xykon, while the Order is 2 for 3. Meanwhile, while we haven't seen Tarquin square off against gate defenses, the Order is 0 for 2 in encounters against him.

Why, then, do you believe that the Order is better equipped to deal with these threats than the gate defenders would have been?

[Forikroder]

Under normal circumstances, sure, but Tarquin and Malack are with them.

And the Kobold, who for all we know might really be Lord Pun Pun in disguise.

Z is the bigger wildcard, his entire build is centered around dealing with wizards so if the draketooths are lower level then V then numbers wont help them beat his spell resistance


Just to point out, Luke also lacked an X-Wing fighter; he was given one of them to use in the battle like, 15 minutes before the battle started. 12-24 hours, at most.

good point, Roy VS Xykon would be like Luke against the deathstar without the rebel alliance and the millenium falcon backing him up (which also means no X wing)

also, although i know its not canon in the first movie Anakin was able to pod race because he had super jedi reflexes so even without special jedi training they still get super boosts from the force so that explains Lukes accuracy

[Emperordaniel]

good point, Roy VS Xykon would be like Luke against the deathstar without the rebel alliance and the millenium falcon backing him up (which also means no X wing)I think Roy does have a "Rebel Alliance" of his own - the Order of the Stick. Whether they're nearly as effective as the real Rebel Alliance (or the "Azurite Rebel Alliance (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html)") remains to be seen. :smalltongue:


also, although i know its not canon in the first movie Anakin was able to pod race because he had super jedi reflexes so even without special jedi training they still get super boosts from the force so that explains Lukes accuracy
Flying a podracer through the Tatooinian desert is not exactly the same thing as flying and aiming an X-Wing to blow up the Death Star. :smallwink:

[theNater]

Z is the bigger wildcard, his entire build is centered around dealing with wizards so if the draketooths are lower level then V then numbers wont help them beat his spell resistance
Spell resistance doesn't help against most illusions. Using illusions to lure Z into a mundane trap would negate his resistance handily.

[Winter]

Flying a podracer through the Tatooinian desert is not exactly the same thing as flying and aiming an X-Wing to blow up the Death Star. :smallwink:

Sure it is. If you practice bullseyeing Womb Rats while flying...

[Emperordaniel]

Sure it is. If you practice bullseyeing Womb Rats while flying...

I think Luke was flying a T-16, not a podracer, when he was shooting those womp rats. T-16s are are nearly twice as fast as the average podracer. :smalltongue:

[Jay R]

It's worth pointing out that the great adventure stories are about a hero beating a villain he shouldn't be able to beat. Harry Potter's story is tense because he's not just fighting Draco. Four musketeers shouldn't be able to stop the plots of the cardinal / prime minister. Who'd be interested in a final battle in which Luke has a bigger death Star and just attacks straight on? Frodo would not be famous for beating the Sackville-Bagginses, or anybody else somebody with an appropriate CR.

[Forikroder]

I think Roy does have a "Rebel Alliance" of his own - the Order of the Stick. Whether they're nearly as effective as the real Rebel Alliance (or the "Azurite Rebel Alliance") remains to be seen.

thats what ive been saying this whole time, Roy could never beat Xykon alone thats why he made a team to back him up

Roy cant beat Xykon but the OoTS might pull it off


Flying a podracer through the Tatooinian desert is not exactly the same thing as flying and aiming an X-Wing to blow up the Death Star.

the one thing they both have in common is the force can help perform both tasks


Spell resistance doesn't help against most illusions. Using illusions to lure Z into a mundane trap would negate his resistance handily.

they have a dude with a ring of trueseeing handy

[theNater]

they have a dude with a ring of trueseeing handy
Which can be overcome with a little clever use of auditory, olfactory, and thermal illusions.

[Forikroder]

Which can be overcome with a little clever use of auditory, olfactory, and thermal illusions.

which im pretty sure dont exist

and even assuming they do exist i dont think the LG would go somewhere else cause they smell something bad

[Winter]

thats what ive been saying this whole time, Roy could never beat Xykon alone thats why he made a team to back him u

You reply to "Rebel Alliance". Please note that the rebel alliance was a band of unwashed kids when compared to the Empire. If Luke alone or with the Alliance, when compared to the Empire, they were outgunned.

And please note that the alliance got crushed when the emporer set his mind to it - they only got lucky with the first Death Star and won because Luke was the "Chosen One they could not calculate with" and they totally lost at Endor. Yes, the Alliance mustered all the crappy two or three dozen capital ships they had and they were completely outgunned. It was a fiasko, an utter military failure.
They only survived because the Emperor was an idiot to invite them too early and then did not fully crush them because he wanted to play with them to lure Luke over to his side.

Your "I have said so all along" misses the point of the scene in Star Wars you base your "I have been saying it all along" on - (and, fyi, just as you, at least this seems to me, miss most points you argue for in this thread).

Stories do get interesting because the heroes face a foe way beyond their abilities to face - and they win due to friendship, extreme hardship, skill and good plans. They struggle against the tide they cannot stop. No one cares about a victory on equal footing. So yes, nothing Roy can muster will be able to stand up to Xykon, he can just improve his oods from "zero" to "just believable he could win".

PS: Yes, you are still on my ignore list, I just see your arguments in quotes from others and some of them really cause itches in my fingers. This time I missed my saving throw and replied.

[Dr.Epic]

Under normal circumstances, sure, but Tarquin and Malack are with them.

I'm still not convinced. Not to mention, the Order could probably convince them who they were, what they were doing, and get them to help them against the Linear Guild.


And the Kobold, who for all we know might really be Lord Pun Pun in disguise.

That desk jockey? Yeah, okay. And Belkar is secretly a level 4 super saiyan. What? His backstory in Origins of PCs is very vague. For all we know it could be true.

[theNater]

which im pretty sure dont exist

and even assuming they do exist i dont think the LG would go somewhere else cause they smell something bad
Major Image can create sounds, smells, and thermal effects.

As for moving because of smells, anybody who spends much time in caves knows that the smell of rotten eggs means it is time to leave before you die of hydrogen sulfide poisoning.

[Forikroder]

Major Image can create sounds, smells, and thermal effects.

As for moving because of smells, anybody who spends much time in caves knows that the smell of rotten eggs means it is time to leave before you die of hydrogen sulfide poisoning.

not in DnD that just means get ready for some fort saves and keep pushing

[theNater]

not in DnD that just means get ready for some fort saves and keep pushing
Pushing on through in hopes of getting to the end of the gas before failing too many saves is a good way to get killed. The smart thing is to back off and either find a way to disperse the poison, or to buff against it.

[The Underlord]

Oops, did my Detect Magic (a cantrip) just detected all your illusion auras?
Well if you are in a dungeon made by an epic spellcaster, are you really surprised that parts of the dungeon are magical(Since we do not know what the illusion were, we can't really gauge the effectiveness of detect magic, if say their was an ancient dragon in front of you, are you surprised that it may seem magical when it probably has buffs)? As far as the other ones, keep in mind that their were many spellcasters their. So at least one could have used dispel magic or something similar to get rid of true seeing or arcane sight..

[Jay R]

Under normal circumstances, sure, but Tarquin and Malack are with them.

And that worked out so well for Lord Tyrinar the Bloody and all the rulers before him.

Tarquin and Malack are not the allies of the people they appear to take orders from.

[Hallavast]

It was Immanuel Kant who proposed that, since one can't reliably predict or foresee all consequences of a given action, it is best to not act based on perceived consequences, but to act according to the Categorical Imperative. This means that you shouldn't do bad things, because bad things are bad. You never know if a good or bad outcome will come of your actions, so you ought to act in good faith.

And he goes on to say that such an Imperative basically means you shouldn't do something unless it would be good if everyone did it all the time. Ergo, you shouldn't commit genocide, because genocide is bad, mkay.

All this back and forth about what might have happened or not; and specifically the fact that the forum can't come to consensus; would only go to show that Kant was right.

Life's like fishin' on a river shanty. You just never know.

[Anarion]

It was Immanuel Kant who proposed that, since one can't reliably predict or foresee all consequences of a given action, it is best to not act based on perceived consequences, but to act according to the Categorical Imperative. This means that you shouldn't do bad things, because bad things are bad. You never know if a good or bad outcome will come of your actions, so you ought to act in good faith.

And he goes on to say that such an Imperative basically means you shouldn't do something unless it would be good if everyone did it all the time. Ergo, you shouldn't commit genocide, because genocide is bad, mkay.

All this back and forth about what might have happened or not; and specifically the fact that the forum can't come to consensus; would only go to show that Kant was right.

Life's like fishin' on a river shanty. You just never know.

I would point out that the Kantian theory comes with the assumption that other people are not going to act in a moral or immoral way, so you're basically on your own when making decisions. If you knew that other people would also consistently act moral or immoral, you could make a prediction about the consequences of your actions that might render Kant incorrect (e.g. if I knew that everyone else drove safely, then I could drive recklessly with almost no risk of an accident and thus slightly raise my work efficiency by getting places faster).

But certainly in V's case, especially given V's incomplete information, it would have made a lot of sense to act based on moral values rather than predicted consequences.

[kickassfrog]

Yes, sure, it's right to kill thousands of people just because otherwise a few of them would inconvenience you...

It does if you save everyone else. In the world!

[Icedaemon]

And how exactly is that elf better suited to that task than the highest level member(s) of the Draketooth clan, at least some of whom were probably roughly on par or even superior to any member of the Order?

[Kish]

It does if you save everyone else. In the world!
There's another quote from the same books my sig comes from.

"Lives don't add as integers. They add as infinities."

[JavaScribe]

And how exactly is that elf better suited to that task than the highest level member(s) of the Draketooth clan, at least some of whom were probably roughly on par or even superior to any member of the Order?

The Draketooths may well have been on par or even slightly stronger than the Order, but there is one thing they lacked that the Order has: Knowledge.

Ochull gave the Order very detailed knowledge on what Xykon can do, so they can fine tune their strategy. The Draketooths knew nothing of Xykon, and it is doubtful they would have given the Order the chance to tell them anything beyond the fact that Xykon is an epic sorceror lich.

Not to mention the strong possibility Vaarsuvius noted that the Draketooths didn't have any clerics. This would have made their higher level people vulnerable to Energy Drains.

[theNater]

The Draketooths may well have been on par or even slightly stronger than the Order, but there is one thing they lacked that the Order has: Knowledge.

Ochull gave the Order very detailed knowledge on what Xykon can do, so they can fine tune their strategy. The Draketooths knew nothing of Xykon, and it is doubtful they would have given the Order the chance to tell them anything beyond the fact that Xykon is an epic sorceror lich.

Not to mention the strong possibility Vaarsuvius noted that the Draketooths didn't have any clerics. This would have made their higher level people vulnerable to Energy Drains.
On the flipside, the Draketooths knew the precise location of the gate, the location and nature of all of the traps, and the nature and activation conditions for any special surprises Girard left behind. That information would also be useful in fine-tuning strategy.

The Order could probably also use Sending or similar magic to inform the Draketooths of Xykon's spell list. While the Draketooths are unlikely to trust it, they may be paranoid enough to build a plan for it being a double-bluff, which would work out all right.

And Energy Drains aren't unstoppable for wizards who know they're coming. A simple Mirror Image makes targeting an Energy Drain quite awkward, for example.

[lio45]

"The gate defense is a LOT weaker now that V has killed all the Draketooths; the Order can't do as good a defense job as the Draketooths would have"

does not automatically include

"The OotS couldn't have brought the Draketooths anything of value to the defense of Girard's gate"

[Aasimar]

So your argument is. They are looking for the trapmakers. They are all dead, but at least that means there aren't traps to prevent them from looking around to ascertain that they are dead, and thus killing them was a net-gain?

How in the world do you figure that?

[JavaScribe]

So your argument is. They are looking for the trapmakers. They are all dead, but at least that means there aren't traps to prevent them from looking around to ascertain that they are dead, and thus killing them was a net-gain?

How in the world do you figure that?
The only definitive way to know what would have happened would be to recieve a "What If" from the Oracle. But the following doesn't seem unlikely.

With Penelope still alive, the Linear Guild would have exploited that loophole in Girard's epic magic to determine the exact location of the Zigguarat weeks ago. What they would have done with that knowledge remains unknown, but Elan mentioned the possibility of Nale telling them about the Order's involvement with the Sapphire Guard.

There definitely would have been a temporary teamup with Team Evil at some point. With all the bad guys knowing the Zigaraut's exact location, they would have bypassed all of the outer defenses via teleporation and gotten to the Draketooths. Some of the Draketooths were high level, but it doesn't look like any living ones were epic and they would have known nothing of Xykon and the Linear Guild. With a suprise attack and all their illusions bypassed, they would get slaughtered before they could retreat into the Ziggaraut's inner depths.

Eventually, the Order would have recieved Tarquin's tip that the Draketooths are in windy canyon, but would be unaware of the Zigguarat's exact location. They would get lost in the illusions, have to give up, and possibly even getting killed by said traps.

With the Draketooths around, the gate would have been completely screwed. With the Order around... it is still completely screwed. But at least there will be some high level heroes still alive to reach Kraagor's gate.

[Mike Havran]

The only definitive way to know what would have happened would be to recieve a "What If" from the Oracle. But the following doesn't seem unlikely.

With Penelope still alive, the Linear Guild would have exploited that loophole in Girard's epic magic to determine the exact location of the Zigguarat weeks ago. What they would have done with that knowledge remains unknown, but Elan mentioned the possibility of Nale telling them about the Order's involvement with the Sapphire Guard.

There definitely would have been a temporary teamup with Team Evil at some point. With all the bad guys knowing the Zigaraut's exact location, they would have bypassed all of the outer defenses via teleporation and gotten to the Draketooths. Some of the Draketooths were high level, but it doesn't look like any living ones were epic and they would have known nothing of Xykon and the Linear Guild. With a suprise attack and all their illusions bypassed, they would get slaughtered before they could retreat into the Ziggaraut's inner depths.

Eventually, the Order would have recieved Tarquin's tip that the Draketooths are in windy canyon, but would be unaware of the Zigguarat's exact location. They would get lost in the illusions, have to give up, and possibly even getting killed by said traps.

With the Draketooths around, the gate would have been completely screwed. With the Order around... it is still completely screwed. But at least there will be some high level heroes still alive to reach Kraagor's gate.

It does seem unlikely to me. If Penelope didn't die, Nale would have a week or two, tops, to narrow down the search (and that doesn't include the possibility that Tarquin starts to investigate those capable mysterious allies of his wife.)

Not to mention that the booby trap triggered by the Order would put the Draketooths on guard anyway, against epic lich and Order and Sapphire Guard (the last one is dubious, as the Draketooths were probably aware of Azure City fall). So TE would not have a big advantage of surprise.

But I think the weakest link is the team-up. Why would Xykon want to cooperate with Nale to help him on his ultimate quest? Nale is weak and Xykon already has the exact coordinates.

[JavaScribe]

It does seem unlikely to me. If Penelope didn't die, Nale would have a week or two, tops, to narrow down the search (and that doesn't include the possibility that Tarquin starts to investigate those capable mysterious allies of his wife.)

It took a few months to narrow down the location to Windy Canyon out of the entire desert. I doubt narrowing it further would have taken more than a week.

Tarquin himself said that Nale managed to hide under his nose for weeks and he hadn't made any effort to look into those mysterious allies of his wife before. It is doubtful he would have bothered checking before the Order came along. And besides, even if he did check, how does this make things any different than they are now?


Not to mention that the booby trap triggered by the Order would put the Draketooths on guard anyway, against epic lich and Order and Sapphire Guard (the last one is dubious, as the Draketooths were probably aware of Azure City fall). So TE would not have a big advantage of surprise.

The Draketooths have refused to let paladin huggers ressurect them from the dead. They are not going to be reasonable. The Draketooths have already done horrible things to maintain their secrecy, so I wouldn't put it past them to try eliminating the Order for knowing too much about them.

They were aware of gates being smashed, but they are too isolated to learn what's happening by rumour and Cloister would have prevented them from learning anything about Team Evil on their own. For all they knew, it could have been the Sapphire Guard gone bad(der) that's been smashing gates.

All the booby trap would have told them is that they are about to be dealing with fascist Lawful "Good" people and that there MIGHT be some sort of epic sorcerer lich on his way too. It wouldn't have told them anything about what that sorcerer lich can do or that he can bypass their outer defences and fight the clan directly because he knows where the ziggaurat is.


But I think the weakest link is the team-up. Why would Xykon want to cooperate with Nale to help him on his ultimate quest? Nale is weak and Xykon already has the exact coordinates.

Evil. A growth Industry.
"We're ALWAYS hiring!" - Xykon

As the above quote says, Xykon is ALWAYS interested in more minions. Nale seems to think he can get that ritual from Xykon because he's worked with him before, so he must have something along these lines in mind. Obviously there would be a betrayal at some point, but probably not until after all the defenders are dead.

[Mike Havran]

It took a few months to narrow down the location to Windy Canyon out of the entire desert. I doubt narrowing it further would have taken more than a week.

Well, they were narrowing it by eliminating non-important and non-warded parts of the desert. Once they would scry on the canyon, they would encounter magical decoys and other stuff. Not to mention that Orrin could be in a different part of canyon, or even elsewhere trying to make a new-generation defender.


Tarquin himself said that Nale managed to hide under his nose for weeks and he hadn't made any effort to look into those mysterious allies of his wife before. It is doubtful he would have bothered checking before the Order came along. And besides, even if he did check, how does this make things any different than they are now?

Because of Penelope. She had lived exactly one day between finding a good clue and dying and that one evening she was celebrating her success. If she was alive longer, she would start preparing the expedition and messing things up. LG would have to be very careful at this point, if they wanted to both keep searching and hide from savvy Tarquin. After Penelope's death, they just holed up in the palace and laid low.



The Draketooths have refused to let paladin huggers ressurect them from the dead. They are not going to be reasonable.

In OotS-verse, mortal life is not such a big deal compared to the afterlife, you need to have a good reason to return (Roy, Jirix), or little reason to stay (Eugene, that cameo LG chap). After two weeks or so, why would a single Draketooth leave his entire family and return to the dirty desert? Another reason - the epic Familicide may actually make resurrection impossible anyway.


The Draketooths have already done horrible things to maintain their secrecy, so I wouldn't put it past them to try eliminating the Order for knowing too much about them.

Lying and stealing is one thing, murder is another. Even if they didn't have moral restraints to kill the Order, they might have refrained from it because it could be a trap.


They were aware of gates being smashed, but they are too isolated to learn what's happening by rumour and Cloister would have prevented them from learning anything about Team Evil on their own. For all they knew, it could have been the Sapphire Guard gone bad(der) that's been smashing gates.

Since they were pretty paranoid, it makes sense that at least some of them were working outside, gathering intelligence about anything that could threaten them. And Gobbotopia was big news that spread wide - after all, 17 different countries recognized the country.


All the booby trap would have told them is that they are about to be dealing with fascist Lawful "Good" people and that there MIGHT be some sort of epic sorcerer lich on his way too. It wouldn't have told them anything about what that sorcerer lich can do or that he can bypass their outer defences and fight the clan directly because he knows where the ziggaurat is.


They seem the kind of organisation that has a plan for most scenarios, including epic arcane casters trying to get hold of the gate (after all, Girard was one and also knew Dorukan). I very much doubt the Ziggurat is not dimensionally locked, so Xykon would have to storm it from outside, and that would leave Draketooths enough time to destroy the gate if the battle goes ill.


Evil. A growth Industry.
"We're ALWAYS hiring!" - Xykon

As the above quote says, Xykon is ALWAYS interested in more minions. Nale seems to think he can get that ritual from Xykon because he's worked with him before, so he must have something along these lines in mind. Obviously there would be a betrayal at some point, but probably not until after all the defenders are dead.

Nale has no means to contact Xykon (Cloister) and Xykon has no particular need for the likes of Nale. Remember, Xykon was perfectly willing to travel with just Redcloak, Tsukiko and the MitD even when he had city of minions at his disposal. He is not in need of a hireling, especially not a party who can easily betray him and complicate things a little bit.

[Chessgeek]

I'm not entirely sure what the relationship between Xykon and Nale is at this point. Initially, Xykon hired The Linear Guild to take out The OOTS, which they failed to do. But, by the end of the Dungeon of Dorukan, Xykon ends up wanting to get The OOTS in his chamber anyway. Obviously that's just because The Giant didn't have the plot figured out yet, but then where does that leave the two of them? At the least, Xykon can't think of the LG as particularly competent.

[Gift Jeraff]

I'm not entirely sure what the relationship between Xykon and Nale is at this point. Initially, Xykon hired The Linear Guild to take out The OOTS, which they failed to do. But, by the end of the Dungeon of Dorukan, Xykon ends up wanting to get The OOTS in his chamber anyway. Obviously that's just because The Giant didn't have the plot figured out yet, but then where does that leave the two of them? At the least, Xykon can't think of the LG as particularly competent.Xykon got the idea that a Good Guy has to touch the Gate from Nale's plan for the Talisman. Prior to that, he did want them dead.

[Chessgeek]

Xykon got the idea that a Good Guy has to touch the Gate from Nale's plan for the Talisman. Prior to that, he did want them dead.

Yeah, I know, but where does that put Xykon and Nale? The LG failed to do the job he hired them for.

[Math_Mage]

There definitely would have been a temporary teamup with Team Evil at some point. With all the bad guys knowing the Zigaraut's exact location, they would have bypassed all of the outer defenses via teleporation and gotten to the Draketooths. Some of the Draketooths were high level, but it doesn't look like any living ones were epic and they would have known nothing of Xykon and the Linear Guild. With a suprise attack and all their illusions bypassed, they would get slaughtered before they could retreat into the Ziggaraut's inner depths.

The part that confuses me is how Sabine was supposed to narrow down a location exact enough to bypass all the defenses from Penelope's account.

Well, that and Nale HAS to know he can't handle Xykon, or he's even dumber than I thought. Meanwhile, Xykon has demonstrated his lack of interest in bringing extra minions along. Neither side wants to ally with the other.

[JavaScribe]

The part that confuses me is how Sabine was supposed to narrow down a location exact enough to bypass all the defenses from Penelope's account.

Zzd'tri's divinations wouldn't have allowed them to bypass ALL of the defenses, but it would have been enough to get them to the ziggaraut, and therefore the Draketooths. All they have to do is suprise attack the Draketooths before they can hide in the ziggaraut's inner depths. After that, they can deal with the inner defenses at their leisure.


Well, that and Nale HAS to know he can't handle Xykon, or he's even dumber than I thought.

Maybe he really is that stupid. Just by going to that gate he's going to have to handle Xykon one way or another, whether it be by bargaining or combat. Especially since he somehow plans to get his hands on Xykon's ritual. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html)


Meanwhile, Xykon has demonstrated his lack of interest in bringing extra minions along. Neither side wants to ally with the other.

They left behind the horde because it is too slow and individually weak to be of any use where they are going (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html). The logistics of transporting that many minions was the main factor in making Azure City their target in the first place (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html)

The Linear Guild is high level and more importantly, already there.

[Kish]

The Linear Guild is high level and more importantly, already there.
More importantly still, Xykon already hired them for a job, and they decided to pursue their own goals on Xykon's time instead. He's not the forgiving sort.

[JavaScribe]

Well, they were narrowing it by eliminating non-important and non-warded parts of the desert. Once they would scry on the canyon, they would encounter magical decoys and other stuff.

Zzd'tri is high level. Only the epic stuff would have been guaranteed to block Zzd'tri's diviniations and it doesn't look like that was applied to the canyon itself. At the very least, Nale seemed to feel that they could narrow down the location further.


Not to mention that Orrin could be in a different part of canyon, or even elsewhere trying to make a new-generation defender.

I doubt Orrin would leave to another part of the canyon for the long term. And if leaving the canyon entirely would have defeated the Linear Guild's efforts, they never would have narrowed it down to the Windy Canyon in the first place.


Because of Penelope. She had lived exactly one day between finding a good clue and dying and that one evening she was celebrating her success. If she was alive longer, she would start preparing the expedition and messing things up. LG would have to be very careful at this point, if they wanted to both keep searching and hide from savvy Tarquin. After Penelope's death, they just holed up in the palace and laid low.

Even if it happened, that still doesn't address how that would have made things any different from the way they are now. Whether to control a superweapon, ensure no one else does, or just to take the measure of his other son, Tarquin may well have just decided to make a temporary alliance with Nale as he is now.


In OotS-verse, mortal life is not such a big deal compared to the afterlife, you need to have a good reason to return (Roy, Jirix), or little reason to stay (Eugene, that cameo LG chap). After two weeks or so, why would a single Draketooth leave his entire family and return to the dirty desert? Another reason - the epic Familicide may actually make resurrection impossible anyway.

Sure, this is possible, but it's every bit as theoretical as my own speculation.


Lying and stealing is one thing, murder is another. Even if they didn't have moral restraints to kill the Order, they might have refrained from it because it could be a trap.

Maybe, but its still a possibility. Girard certainly wasn't above risking the deaths of a few low level paladins. And even if they suspected a trap or had moral concerns, once the Order starts poking around the outskirts of Windy Canyon, alarm bells are going to be ringing.


Since they were pretty paranoid, it makes sense that at least some of them were working outside, gathering intelligence about anything that could threaten them. And Gobbotopia was big news that spread wide - after all, 17 different countries recognized the country.

That doesn't tell them who Team Evil is, just that a bunch of hobgoblins took over Azure City. All the gate business is hush hush, Cloister blocks scrying, and most of the gate defenders are on far too bad terms to speak with one another, especially the Draketooths and the Sapphire Guard.


They seem the kind of organisation that has a plan for most scenarios, including epic arcane casters trying to get hold of the gate (after all, Girard was one and also knew Dorukan).

Sure, and the biggest part of that plan was to trust no one, keep everything completely secret, and rely on Girard's lingering epic magic to prevent divinations from unearthing anything. Unfortunetely, Xykon somehow got his hands on Sereni's Diary. That's something they wouldn't have known to plan for.

The Draketooths didn't seem to have any living epic casters, so they would have required some special preparation to deal with Xykon. If Xykon launched a suprise attack, they wouldn't have time to prepare.


I very much doubt the Ziggurat is not dimensionally locked, so Xykon would have to storm it from outside, and that would leave Draketooths enough time to destroy the gate if the battle goes ill.

It doesn't look like Dimensional Lock can be made permanant and they only have so many casters, so any shielded areas would be relatively small. Maybe even only around the gate itself.


More importantly still, Xykon already hired them for a job, and they decided to pursue their own goals on Xykon's time instead. He's not the forgiving sort.

No, but he isn't completely unreasonable. Nale did TRY fulfill their bargain wielding the power of said goals. He just failed. While Xykon probably would try to eliminate Nale at some point, that doesn't mean he wouldn't see the value in working with a few extra sacrificial pawns for the short term.

Xykon figures in Nale's plans somehow and I doubt Nale is planning on a direct fight.

[B. Dandelion]

More importantly still, Xykon already hired them for a job, and they decided to pursue their own goals on Xykon's time instead. He's not the forgiving sort.

I agree with your overall point, but as to that -- I think the Linear Guild's earlier escapade hurt their credibility more for their lack of results than their ulterior agenda. Nale actually was planning to uphold the deal with Xykon, and since he said it out loud (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html) Xykon probably knows about it. He later called Nale worthless (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html), not treacherous.

[Winter]

More importantly still, Xykon already hired them for a job, and they decided to pursue their own goals on Xykon's time instead. He's not the forgiving sort.

True. But sometimes he is of the forgetting sort. It might very well be he does not remember them (a large part of his memory-thing is pure show, but a part of it still seems real enough).

[Chessgeek]

But sometimes he is of the forgetting sort.

Uhhh, he is? Redcloak, his closest (only) friend still has one eye because Xykon was pissed off at him. If he can't forgive RC, who can he forgive?

[Forikroder]

Uhhh, he is? Redcloak, his closest (only) friend still has one eye because Xykon was pissed off at him. If he can't forgive RC, who can he forgive?

someone who didnt lose his soul?

RC isnt Xykons friend, there partners that are both using each other and hating every second of it

[lio45]

Uhhh, he is? Redcloak, his closest (only) friend still has one eye because Xykon was pissed off at him. If he can't forgive RC, who can he forgive?

"Forgetting", not "forgiving". As in, "I'll have revenge over this Bluepommel dude, whoever he is".

He could very well just not remember he's ever seen Nale before. (Not saying it's that likely, but it would be possible.)

[Chessgeek]

Sorry Winter, I misread that one. Yes, that Is certainly possible.


someone who didnt lose his soul?

RC isnt Xykons friend, there partners that are both using each other and hating every second of it

They do? I mean, yeah, they're using each other, but they hate each other too? I didn't get that impression.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Each gate so far has had some sort of amazing defense that slowed or stopped the bad guys. Dorukan's Gate had the rune that kept Team Evil from using it, Soon's had the ghost-paladins, andLirian's had the Guardian Virus.
I'd bet that Girard did, in fact, put something in place that would compare to that.

Very true. I'm guessing...

...dracolich, which is extremely likely considering the Draketooth's background. Remember how the Order was scryed on when they triggered the programmed message in the middle of the desert? A dracolich related to the Draketooths could know about the message in the desert, be able to scry the Order, be patient enough not to lash out and kill them immediately after the Draketooths had died (actually a non-issue, it wouldn't immediately know that V was responsible but it will quickly find out), and be immune to necromancy (even an epic-level spell). If a dracolich is guarding the Gate, or just investigating the murder of the Draketooth clan, Xykon and Redcloak are in for a world of hurt because they mainly use magic and energy drain effects.

[JavaScribe]

Very true. I'm guessing...

Remember how the Order was scryed on when they triggered the programmed message in the middle of the desert? A dracolich related to the Draketooths could know about the message in the desert, be able to scry the Order...

It has been all but confirmed that the scrying orb was Zzd'tri's. Nale said he knew the Order was in the desert and the aura matched Zzd'tri's two layered green aura.

[Snippy]

RC isnt Xykons friend, there partners that are both using each other and hating every second of itThey do? I mean, yeah, they're using each other, but they hate each other too? I didn't get that impression.

I don't think Xykon hates RC. I think it's only in a few cases that Xykon drifts to extremes such as 'hate' or 'like', he's mostly indifferent. He doesn't feel anything for anyone, and nor does he care about them. RC hasn't done anything to make Xykon truly hate him.
Redcloak may hate Xykon. He dislikes him, that's for sure, but he has never shown intense hate. He thinks of Xykon as a weapon, not a person.

[Hopeless]

Kish's point seems logical to me. You are saying only epic magic can defeat epic magic. Roy doesn't believe that, but Eugene does seem to. Ergo, if you are right, then Roy will be proven wrong.

I'm not sure what point you are making about Roy's sword. A bit hard to parse out your sentences at times since you use no punctuation. But you've already argued that Roy won't defeat Xykon, so whatever point you are making about his sword seems moot.

Roy's dad believes the answer to everything is magic, fact remains that whilst he lived Roy's dad never succeeded in his sworn oath to stop or destroy Xykon.

Roy on the other hand has actually destroyed Xykon's body with nothing more than his bare hands and a handy Gate, the sword certainly has enough potential to defeat Xykon but only once his phylactery is destroyed will Xykon meet his end.

Ironically everything points to Redcloak being killed by Xykon whilst carrying the phylactery and in so doing kills itself.

I'm more wondering if Roy sacrifices himself to seal the rift and basically becoming the Kraagor of his team and we'll have him meet Kraagor and finally, finally we find out what was going on with the Order of the Scribble because they're certainly screwed up in more ways than one!

So its isn't epic magic that will defeat Xykon, irony however plays a part and it will quite possibly be very funny when Xykon figures out how he's been played!:smallwink:

[Hopeless]

To be fair, "Talk to Girard" seems to have become impossible* years ago, when Girard died of old age.

*Or at least requiring of Speak with Dead.

By someone who isn't Lawful Good or reminds Girard in any way of Soon, his order of paladins, etc... come to think about it unless they remind him of Serini or are a member of his extended (and newly undead) family thats pretty much everyone!:smallbiggrin:

So did they ever think of adopting kids as members of their family?:smallsmile:

[Hopeless]

last time i checked Davi doesnt own a Xwing fighter nor would he even be able to fly one if he did nor would he have the force powers to actually land the shot

so no the small joke is still accurate

He does have a sling and since you threw in Star Wars he also has a souped up garage door opener that just happens to cause the Death Star's main weapon to backfire blowing up said artificial moon since they certainly didn't see that one coming!

Thermal exhaust port? I see no thermal exhaust port, I see an undersized accident waiting to happen!

[lio45]

Roy's dad believes the answer to everything is magic, fact remains that whilst he lived Roy's dad never succeeded in his sworn oath to stop or destroy Xykon.

Roy on the other hand has actually destroyed Xykon's body with nothing more than his bare hands and a handy Gate...

"on the other hand"?

handy Gate == Epic magic.

All Roy's bare hands did was move Xykon to where the Epic magic could zap him...

[Peelee]

By someone who isn't Lawful Good or reminds Girard in any way of Soon, his order of paladins, etc... come to think about it unless they remind him of Serini or are a member of his extended (and newly undead) family thats pretty much everyone!:smallbiggrin:

So did they ever think of adopting kids as members of their family?:smallsmile:

No form of Resurrection works if the subject died of old age, which certainly seems to be the case for Girard.

[Mike Havran]

Zzd'tri is high level. Only the epic stuff would have been guaranteed to block Zzd'tri's diviniations and it doesn't look like that was applied to the canyon itself. At the very least, Nale seemed to feel that they could narrow down the location further.

We know little of what kind of spells were used to guard the canyon when the Draketooths were alive, only that Roy considers them "high-end stuff" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html). That implies 7th-9th level spells. We know they were regularly casting Screen, which is 8th (7th if they were casting it from Trickery domain, but that seems less likely) level and could be more than a match for Z. Also, Z would risk that Detect Scrying casters patrol the area. Nale's self-confidence can't be trusted.



That doesn't tell them who Team Evil is, just that a bunch of hobgoblins took over Azure City. All the gate business is hush hush, Cloister blocks scrying, and most of the gate defenders are on far too bad terms to speak with one another, especially the Draketooths and the Sapphire Guard.

Sure, and the biggest part of that plan was to trust no one, keep everything completely secret, and rely on Girard's lingering epic magic to prevent divinations from unearthing anything. Unfortunetely, Xykon somehow got his hands on Sereni's Diary. That's something they wouldn't have known to plan for.

Well, they (probably) knew the Azure City was conquered, and certainly knew that the Gate was destroyed and something powerful blocks all their attempt to scry. They must have been aware that some serious arcane power is against the Gates. It would be prudent of them to prepare for it. We can only guess what kind of preparations they took, but it's a stretch to assume that the attackers would find them flat-footed.

[Math_Mage]

What the Draketooths should be able to deduce is that the same force that took out Dorukan's gate also took out Soon's, because the Cloister on Dorukan's Gate faded after Dorukan's death, and then was restored; faded again after Dorukan's Gate was destroyed, and then was reestablished over Azure City after Soon's Gate was destroyed. They may not know it's Xykon, but they know it's bloody strong.


Zzd'tri's divinations wouldn't have allowed them to bypass ALL of the defenses, but it would have been enough to get them to the ziggaraut, and therefore the Draketooths. All they have to do is suprise attack the Draketooths before they can hide in the ziggaraut's inner depths. After that, they can deal with the inner defenses at their leisure.

We don't know that Zz'dtri would be able to pinpoint things that closely. We don't know that the ziggurat would be scryable. And we don't know that the Draketooths would be caught with their pants down if the Linear Guild teleported in, even if LG didn't get immediately caught up in the surrounding illusions.


Maybe he really is that stupid. Just by going to that gate he's going to have to handle Xykon one way or another, whether it be by bargaining or combat. Especially since he somehow plans to get his hands on Xykon's ritual. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html)

He knows there is a ritual. He knows he doesn't want to die at Malack's hands. That he actually wants to secure Xykon's ritual is far from certain.


They left behind the horde because it is too slow and individually weak to be of any use where they are going (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html). The logistics of transporting that many minions was the main factor in making Azure City their target in the first place (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html)

The Linear Guild is high level and more importantly, already there.

And has a poor track record as far as Team Evil is concerned.


They do? I mean, yeah, they're using each other, but they hate each other too? I didn't get that impression.

Redcloak probably hates both Xykon and himself. Xykon sees Redcloak as fun to toy with. It's not a happy family down there.

[Chessgeek]

Redcloak probably hates both Xykon and himself. Xykon sees Redcloak as fun to toy with. It's not a happy family down there.

But that's how Xykon shows his wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuv.:smallbiggrin:
I don't really think Xykon "hates" many people, and by that reasoning I doubt he hates Redcloak. Redcloak, yes, I concede that it is very likely that he hates Xykon. So as a whole, I concede, it isn't "a happy family" over at TE.

[Gift Jeraff]

Indeed, Rich has even said that Xykon doesn't really hate anyone because he sees himself as so far beyond them. I forgot the exact wording, but it's something to that effect.

[JavaScribe]

What the Draketooths should be able to deduce is that the same force that took out Dorukan's gate also took out Soon's, because the Cloister on Dorukan's Gate faded after Dorukan's death, and then was restored; faded again after Dorukan's Gate was destroyed, and then was reestablished over Azure City after Soon's Gate was destroyed. They may not know it's Xykon, but they know it's bloody strong.
Due to the non interference clause and their own solitude, the Draketooths would be unlikely to scry on Dorukan's gate until the gate's destruction. And as you just said, Cloister was effectively dispelled by said event. Thus, they would never notice it in the first place.

Heck, I'm not even sure they bothered to scry it after the gate's destruction. They certainly didn't do it right away, or Eugene would have noticed.


We don't know that Zz'dtri would be able to pinpoint things that closely. We don't know that the ziggurat would be scryable. And we don't know that the Draketooths would be caught with their pants down if the Linear Guild teleported in, even if LG didn't get immediately caught up in the surrounding illusions.

Well sure, but we don't really know that they wouldn't. As I said before, the only way to know what would have happened would be to recieve a "what if" from the oracle. Without that, arguments for either way are purely speculation.



He knows there is a ritual. He knows he doesn't want to die at Malack's hands. That he actually wants to secure Xykon's ritual is far from certain.


Alright, then let's consider the alternative. The alternative to teaming up with Team Evil is to fight a minimum 3 way battle. Even if the Linear Guild manages to be the sole victor, they still need something to take control of the gate or the Snarl else the whole thing has been a waste of time.

Acquiring a high level divine cleric is easy enough. Acquiring an epic arcane caster is easy enough too, since the archfiends would be willing to lend theirs in a soul splice. But they still don't have an epic arcane/divine ritual for controlling the snarl or the gate. And I doubt the soul splice would be an effective means for researching such a spell. So what are they going to do with the gate without Xykon's ritual? Sit on it until they reach epic level?


And has a poor track record as far as Team Evil is concerned.

Xykon has let minions survive after making mistakes. He has forgotten stuff in the past. Incompetence doesn't equal death, it just means they are disposable, and Xykon likes having disposable minions around. And if all else fails, Nale could try using that charisma score of his to make a diplomacy roll.

[Augmental]

And if all else fails, Nale could try using that charisma score of his to make a diplomacy roll.

Unless Nale has a diplomacy in the 50's, I don't think so.

[Chessgeek]

Xykon has let minions survive after making mistakes.

He had Jirix raised because all he did wrong was die, and he was still potentially useful. Other than that, which minions are you talking about? Redcloak would be nearly impossible to replace in full, but Xykon made sure he remembers what happens if he screws up. He is not the "forgiving" type.

[JavaScribe]

Unless Nale has a diplomacy in the 50's, I don't think so.

Maybe Xykon will kill him the instant he lays eyes on him. But there is nothing indicating that a Linear Guild/Team Evil teamup is quite so unlikely as that. Nale failed to kill the Order, but that was a minor screw up and almost ended up beneficial. Its not like Nale double crossed him.


He had Jirix raised because all he did wrong was die, and he was still potentially useful. Other than that, which minions are you talking about?

How about the time Jirix told Xykon he had his phylactery only to lose it? Xykon was prepared to kill him, but Redcloak managed to talk him out of it by waving around the "recovered" fauxlactery. Xykon is not completely unreasonable. He can be talked out of things

[Chessgeek]

How about the time Jirix told Xykon he had his phylactery only to lose it? Xykon was prepared to kill him, but Redcloak managed to talk him out of it by waving around the "recovered" fauxlactery. Xykon is not completely unreasonable. He can be talked out of things

K, but he would have killed him had Redcloak not shown up with the amulet. Him being reasonable is different from being forgiving, and since he wasn't in full rage mode, he didn't want to waste someone useful. Besides, Jirix didn't even screw that one up, he just gave Xykon false hope.

[The Pilgrim]

Sure, worldwide genocide is terrible, but...

Does anyone honestly believe the Order would have gotten this far if those guys were still alive? The only reason they made it this far was because most of their real illusions and traps ran out. And it's shown that Girard's descendants were just as unreasonable as he, if not even moreso.

The Order would have been impossibly outgunned if these guys were still alive.

So?

The objective of the OOTS is NOT to blast the Gate (contrary to what may be suggested by their performance this far). Their objective is to keep the gate safe. If the gate defenders can do so by themselves, then it's allright.

The worst that would have happened, is the Girardites refusing aid from the OOTS, then getting stomped by the Linear Guild or Team Evil, then the OOTS stepping in to fight the bad dudes. Which is a better outcome than the one at hand - the OOTS going straight to fight the bid dudes, without them having been softened down by the Girardites.