D&D 3.5 Monks + Unarmed attacks

[Sarquion]

I have a monk in a 3.5 campaign and it is unclear as to whether I can use two weapon fighting with my unarmed attacks or not.

I haven't found a section which says you can or cannot. The only mention of unarmed attacks in two-weapon fighting is "If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)".

Also if I can use two weapon fighting with my unarmed strikes does this also apply to flurry of blows?

[Urpriest]

It's generally agreed upon that you can TWF with an unarmed strike and some other weapon.

The main argument against TWFing with two unarmed strikes is that you don't have two unarmed strikes, you only have one.

[Salanmander]

I have a monk in a 3.5 campaign and it is unclear as to whether I can use two weapon fighting with my unarmed attacks or not.

I haven't found a section which says you can or cannot. The only mention of unarmed attacks in two-weapon fighting is "If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)".

Also if I can use two weapon fighting with my unarmed strikes does this also apply to flurry of blows?

I've always played with yes and yes.

Let's say your attack progression with no flurry and no TWF is +7/+2.

If you use either flurry (assuming basic flurry) or TWF it becomes +5/+5/+0.

If you use both it becomes +3/+3/+3/-2.

As for the legality of TWF with unarmed strikes, it seems to me the relevant passage is this: "There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes." The only time you'd normally be applying half Strength bonus to damage is when TWF, so this passage tells you what happens when a monk TWFights with unarmed strikes.

[Jroch]

I researched this topic quite a bit for Pathfinder, which should be pretty much in line with 3.5. You can use TWF with your unarmed strike attacks, but it cannot be combined with Flurry Of Blows, as they are both attack types that do the same thing. Note that there is no point in using TWF, since it is *worse* than FoB. (Doesn't scale as fast and has worse to-hit modifiers.)

And if you're thinking about it: TWF does not get "+STR and a half" for double weapons. In fact, double weapons can only be used with such a bonus if you use one end of the weapon, which means you're losing the off-hand strikes. And FoB makes no distinction for single versus double weapons (such as staff), so there is no real advantage to using a double weapon as a monk.

I know, I know... my research on this was because I *really* wanted to be a monk who could TWF/FoB for three attacks a round with a staff doing x1.5 bonus STR damage on hits. Unfortunately, this exploit was discussed and quashed on the WotC boards years ago...


Okay, perhaps Pathfinder isn't exactly in line with 3.5. The relevant item from the PF Core Book is "Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. ...as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat..." So for PF a FoB is it's own full attack action and can't be combined, since FoB is applied as if using TWF.

[Urpriest]

The comparison of TWF and FoB is only relevant for Pathfinder, and only currently. Early PF and 3.5 both have FoB as a separate mechanic, since it's perfectly fine to use FoB with all attacks with the same weapon.

[Togo]

If your GM is unhappy with two weapon fighting with unarmed attacks, then get a light weapon (most monk weapons are light) and weild it in your off hand. Then at least you can get the extra TWF abilties with that, while combining with unarmed attacks and using flurry of blows.

Bear in mind also that few GMs are going to utter the words, "your monk is too powerful", so play for as much as you can get.

[Sarquion]

I researched this topic quite a bit for Pathfinder, which should be pretty much in line with 3.5. You can use TWF with your unarmed strike attacks, but it cannot be combined with Flurry Of Blows, as they are both attack types that do the same thing. Note that there is no point in using TWF, since it is *worse* than FoB. (Doesn't scale as fast and has worse to-hit modifiers.)


Okay, perhaps Pathfinder isn't exactly in line with 3.5. The relevant item from the PF Core Book is "Starting at 1st level, a monk can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action. ...as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat..." So for PF a FoB is it's own full attack action and can't be combined, since FoB is applied as if using TWF.


I understand this for Pathfinder but what about core 3.5?

[dascarletm]

"your monk is too powerful"

stupid DMs

[Scarey Nerd]

If your GM is unhappy with two weapon fighting with unarmed attacks, then get a light weapon (most monk weapons are light) and weild it in your off hand. Then at least you can get the extra TWF abilties with that, while combining with unarmed attacks and using flurry of blows.

Bear in mind also that few GMs are going to utter the words, "your monk is too powerful", so play for as much as you can get.

Those DMs never met "Orpheus, the Half-Dragon monk, smiter of drug dealers, slayer of camels and widdler on the floor".

[SuperPanda]

For Pathfinder monks wanting to do 1.5 Str on all attacks of their flurry (unarmed, no staff) look up the Style Feats as per:

Dragon Ferocity (Combat)
You attack with the strength of a dragon, your telling blows striking fear into your enemies.

Prerequisites: Str 15, Improved Unarmed Strike, Dragon Style, Stunning Fist, Acrobatics 5 ranks.

Benefit: While using Dragon Style, you gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus. When you score a critical hit or a successful Stunning Fist attempt against an opponent while using this style, that opponent is also shaken for a number of rounds equal to 1d4 + your Strength bonus.

Special: Taking this feat allows you to qualify for the Elemental Fist feat even if you do not meet that feat’s prerequisites. If you do not meet that feat’s prerequisites, you must choose one of the damage types that feat offers, and you can use only that damage type with your Elemental Fist attacks until you meet the feat’s normal prerequisites. A monk with this feat can use Elemental Fist as if he were a monk of the four winds.

from: PF Srd. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dragon-ferocity-combat)

Since you already have full str bonus on damage to all attacks, it essentially gives you 1.5 to all unarmed attacks.

----------------------

When I've DM'd 3.5 I've allowed them to stack since it drops your to-hit bonus very low anyway.

[Suddo]

I've always played with yes and yes.

Let's say your attack progression with no flurry and no TWF is +7/+2.

If you use either flurry (assuming basic flurry) or TWF it becomes +5/+5/+0.

If you use both it becomes +3/+3/+3/-2.

I'd like to argue this point:
Note that on the monk's chart (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) at level 5 his attack is not +4/+4/-1 it is +4/+4 this is because you only get extra attacks via BAB if you have more than 5. So at level 1 you get -2/-2 because you only have 1 attack form BAB the others are from other sources.
So if you want to be crazy and be a Monk 1/ Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Strike Barb 1 with TWF and Snap Kick. You'd have -7/-7/-7/-7 as your attack. At level 9 (1 Monk/ 8 Barb) you'd have 0/0/0/0. At level 14 you finally get 5/5/5/5/0.
This a big factor.

edit: I was wrong please ignore what I said. I figured it out later the day while thinking about it.

[Novawurmson]

Pretty sure Snap Kick requires BAB +6.

[Urpriest]

I'd like to argue this point:
Note that on the monk's chart (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) at level 5 his attack is not +4/+4/-1 it is +4/+4 this is because you only get extra attacks via BAB if you have more than 5. So at level 1 you get -2/-2 because you only have 1 attack form BAB the others are from other sources.
So if you want to be crazy and be a Monk 1/ Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Strike Barb 1 with TWF and Snap Kick. You'd have -7/-7/-7/-7 as your attack. At level 9 (1 Monk/ 8 Barb) you'd have 0/0/0/0. At level 14 you finally get 5/5/5/5/0.
This a big factor.

At level 5 the monk doesn't have BAB +6, so of course he doesn't have iterative attacks. Your argument is nonsensical.

[Salanmander]

At level 5 the monk doesn't have BAB +6, so of course he doesn't have iterative attacks. Your argument is nonsensical.

I think his dispute comes from the fact that any single classed monk with iteratives won't have basic flurry (which I used because I didn't feel like going and looking up the progression).

It still doesn't matter, we can pretend my example was a fighter 6/monk 2 with no bonuses to hit other than BAB.