How many San has V lost since the fall of Azure City [Archive]

veti

2012-06-26, 05:21 PM

V was getting visibly unhinged (as indicated in the artwork) after the fall of Azure City, owing (as we learn later) to lack of trancing. Her actions at that time (monomaniacal focus on contacting Haley, disintegrating Kubota, leaving the party) were - well, "insane" is such a loaded term - let's just say they're not what someone who was thinking clearly would do.

This arc culminates in the Soul Splice and the Familicide. (The fiends explain that Soul Splice will regenerate hit points and spell slots, but they don't say anything about mental balance.) At this point V is fully insane (and influenced by three of the most evil people the world has ever seen). That's why I don't think it's fair to condemn her fully for the Familicide. That particular bout of insanity ends with the Soul Splice, after which she's back to something approximating her right mind.

I don't think Rich is tracking SAN (any more than he's tracking HP or any other stats numerically), but I feel reasonably confident in saying that V's delicate balance of mind is going to be a further plot point. Which amounts to the same thing.

hamishspence

2012-06-26, 05:26 PM

At this point V is fully insane (and influenced by three of the most evil people the world has ever seen). That's why I don't think it's fair to condemn her fully for the Familicide. That particular bout of insanity ends with the Soul Splice, after which she's back to something approximating her right mind.

The three fiends seem to suggest that the influence of the three spliced souls is minimal here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html

Alchemist_Fire

2012-06-26, 06:53 PM

Ya know, silvadel, sanity has been touched on briefly in the comic. Between Roy making a Knowledge (Limits of My Own Sanity) check (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html) and V, the keeper of a thousand arcane secrets (each of which would drive you mad! MAD! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootscast.html)), as well as Haley's whole thing... at least Durkon is comfortable in knowing that his body WILL be sent back to the homelands, rather than chucked in a rift or something.

Forikroder

2012-06-26, 07:02 PM

I mean V lost the first big cluster of San when V was being charged by that army and had to invis leaving them to their deaths...

Then V lost more trying to find Haley.

Then there was the whole Island thing with the Dragon and the threats.

The splice and confrontations with the Dragon(The realization of the look in V's mates eyes) and Xykon.

The divorce.

all this, was accepted and dealt with by V already

The realization of the genocide ramifications.

and finally

Having a mummy drop in on you from the ceiling saying "Your Fault."

---

I am sure I have missed a few other losses but there seems to be enough shocks to the system that V should be below 0 or really close to 0 even if V started with a somewhat solid san rating before the fall of azure city.

this is the only stuff thats really weighing on his mind right now

Ellye

2012-06-26, 08:14 PM

137beth

2012-06-26, 08:40 PM

Forikroder

2012-06-26, 09:07 PM

I believe V's stability will reach a breaking point when the IFCC finally take some of their time with her soul while she's still alive.

This will remind her of everything. Her failure at Azure city, her failure to locate Haley by herself, the terrible bargain she stroke, the terrible deeds she did with that bargain... plus the new realization that the price she paid was bigger than she expected (she still believes that the IFCC will hold her soul after she dies).

if V does break it will pretty much make everything that happened after the familicide (the parts about Vs character growth at least) completely pointless and a waste of space (so basically like 75% of this arc)

also your statement
she still believes that the IFCC will hold her soul after she dies).
seems to imply that for some reason his assumption of that (assuming he does actually assume that) is for some reason illogical and you have the tinniest ittybittyest smallest most insubstantial piece of evidence its false

between plane shifts and soul splices theres no reason for the IFCC to care if Vs dead or alive afterall, in his own words, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0163.html
my ghost will be both angry and vengeful and retain all of my spellcasting abilities

plus we already have seen a ghost cast a spell before anyway http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html

so realistically it doesnt change anything for the IFCC if they ahve a flesh and blood body doing whatever it is they need him to do or if they wait for him to shed his flesh and blood body before doing whatever it is they need him to do if they do indeed need him to do anything

rgrekejin

2012-06-26, 10:13 PM

also your statement
seems to imply that for some reason his assumption of that (assuming he does actually assume that) is for some reason illogical and you have the tinniest ittybittyest smallest most insubstantial piece of evidence its false

between plane shifts and soul splices theres no reason for the IFCC to care if Vs dead or alive afterall, in his own words, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0163.html
my ghost will be both angry and vengeful and retain all of my spellcasting abilities

plus we already have seen a ghost cast a spell before anyway http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html

so realistically it doesnt change anything for the IFCC if they ahve a flesh and blood body doing whatever it is they need him to do or if they wait for him to shed his flesh and blood body before doing whatever it is they need him to do if they do indeed need him to do anything

...you know, I feel like these points might have been addressed somewhere before... almost as if they had been mulled over on another thread... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243229)

By the way, in that comic you link to, you'll notice that Eugene's ghost can't really effect the material world without being summoned by Shojo, and since the IFCC cannot themselves summon V back to the mortal plane, a deceased V who effectively cannot leave whatever plane her soul is eventually relegated to really is pretty useless to them, spell casting powers or none.

Forikroder

2012-06-26, 10:48 PM

...you know, I feel like these points might have been addressed somewhere before... almost as if they had been mulled over on another thread... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243229)

By the way, in that comic you link to, you'll notice that Eugene's ghost can't really effect the material world without being summoned by Shojo, and since the IFCC cannot themselves summon V back to the mortal plane, a deceased V who effectively cannot leave whatever plane her soul is eventually relegated to really is pretty useless to them, spell casting powers or none.

for someone who cant affect the material world, he sure cast alot of spells and illusions to affect people in it

also you have no idea what powers the IFCC has or doesnt ahve available to them since we know they have at least 2 other epic level spellcasters available to thema nd potentially three if theyve retreated Haerta already

Darth V.

2012-06-26, 10:52 PM

Considering the number of High-level spells she's cast and the number of monsters she's seen I'd say that were this Call of Cthulhu V. would be well into the negative SAN numbers by now.
Seeing as how this is D&D I'd say the worst she can expect is getting sucked into ravenloft and blowing a few horror checks.

rgrekejin

2012-06-26, 11:10 PM

for someone who cant affect the material world, he sure cast alot of spells and illusions to affect people in it

also you have no idea what powers the IFCC has or doesnt ahve available to them since we know they have at least 2 other epic level spellcasters available to thema nd potentially three if theyve retreated Haerta already

As I said in the post you quoted, he can cast spells that affect the material world only when he was actually under the effects of Shojo's summoning spell (and possibly when conjuring images for Roy when communicating through his sword, but I'm not sure that those effected anyone other than Roy, so the point still stands). Other than that, the only spell he cast that did anything was detect scrying, which only actually effects Eugene himself, not anyone on the material plane. I mean, seriously, the man is an illusionist: if he was trying so hard to communicate with Roy, and all of his spells work normally on the material world despite his ghostliness, why not just cast a Major Image? Roy can't see you, but if your spells work, you can make an illusion he can see. Plus, we know that, in at least three other circumstances, loose, unbound souls on the material plane cannot cast spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0641.html).

Also, we know that the IFCC explicitly cannot act on the material plane except in the course of making a deal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html). So I know perfectly well that they cannot arbitrarily summon V to the material plane.

Forikroder

2012-06-27, 07:49 AM

As I said in the post you quoted, he can cast spells that affect the material world only when he was actually under the effects of Shojo's summoning spell

aside from the spell he cast to figure out he needed to be in Azure city so he could take the celestials place in getting summoned which did affect things on the material plane, why he didnt cast an illusion to communicate with roy is hard to tell, maybe because he knew if he did that the Celestials would bind him to the upper planes as soon as he returned and letting roy know Xykon was still alive wasnt an important enough message to give roy at the cost of never being able to give roy another message

Plus, we know that, in at least three other circumstances, loose, unbound souls on the material plane cannot cast spells.

no, we know that souls that have been soul spliced and escape cannot cast spells without a host which is completely different since the souls have been magically shackled

Also, we know that the IFCC explicitly cannot act on the material plane except in the course of making a deal. So I know perfectly well that they cannot arbitrarily summon V to the material plane.

right they cant summon him, doesnt mean they cant send him, have someone else send him or have someone else summon him even assuming that the place they want V to be casting spells is the material plane

Roderick_BR

2012-06-27, 08:08 AM

I'll just point out that when the mummy fell on V, it was probably his own mind making the "your fault" remark, not the actual undead saying it :smallamused:

Forikroder

2012-06-27, 08:11 AM

I'll just point out that when the mummy fell on V, it was probably his own mind making the "your fault" remark, not the actual undead saying it :smallamused:

except the draketooths dont know V cast familicide

rgrekejin

2012-06-27, 08:25 AM

aside from the spell he cast to figure out he needed to be in Azure city so he could take the celestials place in getting summoned which did affect things on the material plane, why he didnt cast an illusion to communicate with roy is hard to tell, maybe because he knew if he did that the Celestials would bind him to the upper planes as soon as he returned and letting roy know Xykon was still alive wasnt an important enough message to give roy at the cost of never being able to give roy another message

The spell he cast to figure out he needed to be in Azure City was "Detect Scrying" which, as I mentioned in the post you quoted, effects Eugene himself, and not anyone on the material plane. As for how he knew about the summoning spell, that is unclear. But from his description, it isn't at all clear that a spell was even used to detect it. He merely says that he sensed Shojo's clerics attempting a summons. Since there is no spell which I am aware of that allows you to detect a summoning spell in progress, I think it's more likely that this is simply a function of being an inhabitant of the lawful good aligned plane, rather than a specific spell he cast. As for your theory about being bound to the upper planes if he cast a spell Roy could detect... that's just groundless speculation.

no, we know that souls that have been soul spliced and escape cannot cast spells without a host which is completely different since the souls have been magically shackled

We have no indication of what those shackles do or don't do. I make this point to illustrate that the only times we've seen the spirits of deceased spellcasters wandering the Earth without a summon spell or a specific anchor (like Roy's sword, or V's body) they have been completely and entirely unable to effect the world around them.

right they cant summon him, doesnt mean they cant send him, have someone else send him or have someone else summon him even assuming that the place they want V to be casting spells is the material plane

...if it were within the IFCC's power to send the discorporated spirits of their deceased spellcasters around willy-nilly to do their bidding, why waste their time with V when they have three epic-level spellcasters sitting around on hand? "Interfering with the Material Plane" and "Unable to interfere with the Material Plane, but able to insert Epic level servants at any time and place of your choosing to interfere directly with the Material Plane" seems to me to be a distinction without a difference. Maybe things actually do work that way, we have no way of knowing, but if that is in fact the case, it does raise the question of why they're even bothering with V in the first place as opposed to just sending Haera to go do whatever they need done.

Kish

2012-06-27, 08:50 AM

I'll just point out that when the mummy fell on V, it was probably his own mind making the "your fault" remark, not the actual undead saying it :smallamused:
No, the mummy was echoing what Nale had just said.

Forikroder

2012-06-27, 08:52 AM

effects Eugene himself, and not anyone on the material plane.

aside from the scryer

We have no indication of what those shackles do or don't do. I make this point to illustrate that the only times we've seen the spirits of deceased spellcasters wandering the Earth without a summon spell or a specific anchor (like Roy's sword, or V's body) they have been completely and entirely unable to effect the world around them.

no because the one time weve seen a deceased spellcaster wander the earth was eugene who very often affected the world around him with his illusions

why waste their time with V

who knows? i dont, you dont, noone knows noone has even the slightest inkling on what they want V for nor what they want him to do

noone has any idea why they care about V at all hes not special, hes not high level, he doesnt have some special ability to cast a spell noone else can

V isnt some insanely importnat object hes essentialy worthless he cant give them infinite power

rgrekejin

2012-06-27, 09:16 AM

aside from the scryer

Except that it doesn't. Detect Scrying gives Eugene the ability to see the scrying sensor and trace it back to his source. This gives Eugene information he can act on later, but it in no way actually directly effects the scryer. By this logic, Roy was effecting the material plane the entire time he was a ghost, because he could see things that he could potentially make use of at a later date. But that isn't what is meant by "Eugene's spells effect the Material Plane" at all. If Eugene had cast lightning bolt to try to get Roy's attention while following him around after the gate exploded, would it have done damage? That's what we mean by "effect the Material Plane". And the answer is pretty obviously no.

no because the one time weve seen a deceased spellcaster wander the earth was eugene who very often affected the world around him with his illusions

Oh fer... as I have said again and again, the only time Eugene's illusions effect the world around him is when he is held within Shojo's summoning spell. It is the fact that he has been summoned gives him the ability to interact with the Material Plane in a substantive way. Please provide me an example of Eugene effecting the anything on the Material Plane with his spells when he is not either manifesting to Roy through his sword or under the effects of Shojo's summoning circle.

noone has any idea why they care about V at all hes not special

I can name one very special thing about V: she is part of an adventuring party that is, at present, searching for a series of Gates which conceal rifts in the fabric of reality behind which lies a God-killing abomination. Being able to take control of a high-powered member of such a party at the right moment has all sorts of possible uses for three fiends bent on the destruction of the Good Gods and the Upper Planes. Yes, I know you don't think the IFCC can control V's soul before she dies. But the evidence all makes no sense if they can't, and a great deal of sense if they can. The solution is much more elegant if the fiends really can control the still-living V. Since we have no actual evidence to support the claim that they can't, I am curious as to why you so vehemently insist upon this point.

Forikroder

2012-06-27, 09:18 AM

Oh fer... as I have said again and again, the only time Eugene's illusions effect the world around him is when he is held within Shojo's summoning spell. It is the fact that he has been summoned gives him the ability to interact with the Material Plane in a substantive way. Please provide me an example of Eugene effecting the anything on the Material Plane with his spells when he is not either manifesting to Roy through his sword or under the effects of Shojo's summoning circle.

okay the IFCC has someone draw a circle first not a big deal, even assuming your right which i dont see a reason to assume

I can name one very special thing about V: she is part of an adventuring party that is, at present, searching for a series of Gates which conceal rifts in the fabric of reality behind which lies a God-killing abomination. Being able to take control of a high-powered member of such a party at the right moment has all sorts of possible uses for three fiends bent on the destruction of the Good Gods and the Upper Planes. Yes, I know you don't think the IFCC can control V's soul before she dies. But the evidence all makes no sense if they can't, and a great deal of sense if they can. The solution is much more elegant if the fiends really can control the still-living V. Since we have no actual evidence to support the claim that they can't, I am curious as to why you so vehemently insist upon this point.

even assuming they can take control of V like that.... why? V cant take control fo a gate with his piddly spellcasting abilities

rgrekejin

2012-06-27, 09:31 AM

okay the IFCC has someone draw a circle first not a big deal, even assuming your right which i dont see a reason to assume

You might want to read up a few posts... if I'm wrong, the Eugene could have just talked to Roy using Major Image, and avoided the whole "Azure City" thing entirely. So there is pretty good reason to assume I'm right. And if it is such a trifling effort to make a summoning circle (which it may not be... we don't really know what spell was used to summon Eugene), why bother using it to summon V? Summon Haera. Additionally, the fact that the circle cannot be moved, and is therefore useless in a potentially moving battle, would be a big drawback. A fully-mobile, ambulatory wizard would work much better.

even assuming they can take control of V like that.... why? V cant take control fo a gate with his piddly spellcasting abilities

No, but in a pitched battle for the Gate, she could turn the tide one way or the other. Her actions could help pave the way for other IFCC minions to take the Gate. There's all kinds of mischief one could get up to with a mid to high level wizard during a fight for control of a major MacGuffin. At this point, it is the only possible use for V's soul that really makes any sense. I suppose it is possible that V's soul could be used for some purpose which has up until this point been completely unhinted at, but as we get closer and closer to the end of the comic, the odds of there being a major plot element that has yet to be revealed get smaller and smaller.

Forikroder

2012-06-27, 09:42 AM

You might want to read up a few posts... if I'm wrong, the Eugene could have just talked to Roy using Major Image, and avoided the whole "Azure City" thing entirely. So there is pretty good reason to assume I'm right. And if it is such a trifling effort to make a summoning circle (which it may not be... we don't really know what spell was used to summon Eugene), why bother using it to summon V? Summon Haera. Additionally, the fact that the circle cannot be moved, and is therefore useless in a potentially moving battle, would be a big drawback. A fully-mobile, ambulatory wizard would work much better.

Eugene said he was stuck in the circle because if he went back he was going to be in some serious trouble, its safe to assume that there are rules preventing him from communicating with anyone but roy while he has the sword so if he used an illusion to talk with roy it doesnt help there situation any since they werent in a position to chase Xykon before he regenerated anyway and he doesnt know how to find him so he decided to wait at least until he could fill roy up on a bunch of info since there was no reason toa ssume roy wouldnt travel to the nearest town and get the sword repaired so he could apear then

No, but in a pitched battle for the Gate, she could turn the tide one way or the other. Her actions could help pave the way for other IFCC minions to take the Gate.

what minions? you cant be reffering to the LG since they spent a good amount of time squatting in the palace when they knew exactly where a gate was, if the IFCC wanted a gate they would have lit a fire under there asses to get to the windy cavern as soon as Penelope died

plus if they wanted a gate, why go through such pains to put Xykon back in the equation?

it is the only possible use for V's soul that really makes any sense.

heres one, they need/want him for some sort of ritual or perhaps as some sort of component for a ritual that we have no idea about

considering we have no idea about the plans of the IFCC i consider it far more likely that whatever they want V for is beyond our ability to guess about

but as we get closer and closer to the end of the comic, the odds of there being a major plot element that has yet to be revealed get smaller and smaller.

no it gets bigger and bigger and bigger the IFCC has done NOTHING to improve there chances at controlling a gate nor have they made any move at a gate and have m

rgrekejin

2012-06-27, 09:58 AM

Eugene said he was stuck in the circle because if he went back he was going to be in some serious trouble, its safe to assume that there are rules preventing him from communicating with anyone but roy while he has the sword so if he used an illusion to talk with roy it doesnt help there situation any since they werent in a position to chase Xykon before he regenerated anyway and he doesnt know how to find him so he decided to wait at least until he could fill roy up on a bunch of info since there was no reason toa ssume roy wouldnt travel to the nearest town and get the sword repaired so he could apear then

...I think the reason that he thought he'd be in serious trouble was that he tied up an angel and hijacked a summoning spell, not that there is some special prohibition against communicating with mortals by means other than a hackneyed material focus. Eugene was already down there trying to communicate with Roy even though his sword was broken. Since he was already trying to communicate with him, that kind of invalidates your suggestion that the communication itself was the problem. It wasn't that Eugene actually had the power to communicate with him and didn't use it, it's that he was literally powerless to communicate with Roy in this instance.

Also, if your point of view is true, what's to stop spellcasters from just killing people left and right on the material plane with damaging spells? Why aren't all dead spellcasters just down here, blasting away at whatever they like? Actual Ghosts (as in, the Monster Manual monster) that can actually effect the material world are rare and require specific circumstances to arise, as V hints at when talking to Samantha about her ghost being vengeful and possessing her full spellcasting powers.

As for the rest of your post, we've argued this out on another thread, and I have no interest of rehashing those arguments here.

Forikroder

2012-06-27, 10:10 AM

that kind of invalidates your suggestion that the communication itself was the problem.

no it reinforces my point because it failed so obviously the gods arent big on ghosts talking to the living

Also, if your point of view is true, what's to stop spellcasters from just killing people left and right on the material plane with damaging spells?

the wrath of the gods descending upon them and tearing there soul apart?
evil souls being much more tied down to the plane then the good souls who are pretty mcuh never going to do that?

rgrekejin

2012-06-27, 10:20 AM

no it reinforces my point because it failed so obviously the gods arent big on ghosts talking to the living

Wrong. If Eugene knows he'll get in trouble just for communicating with Roy when his sword is broken, then why is he even trying in the first place? It isn't like he got down there, tried to communicate with him, and was then informed that the Gods would punish him for communicating with Roy, so he didn't cast any spells that may allow him to communicate with Roy. We see him shouting at Roy even after he learned that his sword was broken. He was trying his best to communicate with him, and failed to do so.

the wrath of the gods descending upon them and tearing there soul apart?
evil souls being much more tied down to the plane then the good souls who are pretty mcuh never going to do that?

So you think that no good spellcaster would decide, in death, that his ghost should take a shot at Xykon? Or Tarquin? Or any of the hobgoblins in Azure City? If that sort of thing were going on, I suspect we'd have heard about it. That spells cast by the dead don't effect the living, except when they are summoned, is a much simpler explanation.

Forikroder

2012-06-27, 10:37 AM

Wrong. If Eugene knows he'll get in trouble just for communicating with Roy when his sword is broken, then why is he even trying in the first place? It isn't like he got down there, tried to communicate with him, and was then informed that the Gods would punish him for communicating with Roy, so he didn't cast any spells that may allow him to communicate with Roy. We see him shouting at Roy even after he learned that his sword was broken. He was trying his best to communicate with him, and failed to do so.

in the vain hope that if he yelled loud enough even with a broken sword it would get through

So you think that no good spellcaster would decide, in death, that his ghost should take a shot at Xykon? Or Tarquin? Or any of the hobgoblins in Azure City? If that sort of thing were going on, I suspect we'd have heard about it. That spells cast by the dead don't effect the living, except when they are summoned, is a much simpler explanation.

sometimes the simplest explanation isnt right, you have no evidence that a ghost cant cast a spell while dead, i have in story evidence of a ghost doing jsut that

rgrekejin

2012-06-27, 10:41 AM

sometimes the simplest explanation isnt right, you have no evidence that a ghost cant cast a spell while dead, i have in story evidence of a ghost doing jsut that

You have evidence of a ghost showing that he can only cast effective spells under highly specific, restrictive circumstances. This is a point in my favor, not yours.

Forikroder

2012-06-27, 10:44 AM

You have evidence of a ghost showing that he can only cast effective spells under highly specific, restrictive circumstances. This is a point in my favor, not yours.
the bolded part is your opinion and not supported by evidence

rgrekejin

2012-06-27, 12:41 PM

the bolded part is your opinion and not supported by evidence

It is a logically consistent conclusion supported by all the evidence we have on hand, and it is not a subjective statement, which is what you appear to be trying to dismiss it as. I'm not saying "I prefer the color red", which can be dismissed as a mere opinion. I am making an argument about an objective fact, which is either true or not. While we don't have enough evidence to say anything with, as you are so fond of saying, 100% certainty, we certainly have enough in-comic evidence to draw real, supportable conclusions, which is what I have done.

Your argument, on the other hand, makes up out of whole cloth a system of punishment for dead spellcasters who use their magic to communicate with the living (except for divine casters and sending, which is totally fine :smallsigh:), and has as a logical conclusion a bunch of dead good spellcasters going around unseen, slaying the forces of evil with powerful magic. How is that a more logical conclusion that Eugene, as a ghost, has no more power over the land of the living than the ghostly Roy? Roy, in death, was powerless. Is it so unreasonable to think that Eugene is too?

I mean, if communicating with the living was so taboo, why even bother responding to Shojo's summoning? Clearly the Gods would punish him for that, too. It makes no sense for him not to show Roy an illusion, but then respond to Shojo's summons.

In short, every single shred in-comic evidence is on my side on this one. The three soul splice casters cannot effect anything on the material plane when not bound to V. Ghosts, as evidenced by Roy, are generally unable to effect the Material Plane. Despite his best efforts to communicate with Roy, Eugene was unable to do so until he responded to a summoning spell from Shojo, despite the fact that if his spells did effect the world of the living as normal, it would have been child's play for him to get Roy's attention. As far as we know, there are not invisible hordes of deceased good-aligned spellcasters running around casting bolts of lightning at evil creatures. In every instance where it is possible for someone to have proved your argument correct, they have failed to do so, and instead acted as if my argument is correct. Without someone looking right at the screen and explaining how spellcasting works for the dead, this could not be more settled. Yes, you can make up weird conspiracy-theory style rationales to explain away each piece of evidence, but by the time you have, you've built yourself one heck of a convoluted, rickety argument, all in support of an argument (that the IFCC can't take V's soul until after her death) which was already pretty dependent on convoluted, rickety arguments to begin with

Forikroder

2012-06-27, 12:48 PM

Is it so unreasonable to think that Eugene is too?

considering he demonstrated that he was able to use his magic as a ghost i think it is unreasonable

I mean, if communicating with the living was so taboo, why even bother responding to Shojo's summoning? Clearly the Gods would punish him for that, too. It makes no sense for him not to show Roy an illusion, but then respond to Shojo's summons.

cause the plot decreed it to be so, he thought going to Azure city would let hm learn more about Xykon and maybe an easy way to kill him

In short, every single shred in-comic evidence is on my side on this one.

no none of it is, Eugene CASTED A SPELL on his little trip down to yell at roy, how is taht evidence that its impossible for a ghost to cast a spell?

Ghosts, as evidenced by Roy, are generally unable to effect the Material Plane.

Roy was a fighter, he was quite capable of beating up other ghosts while he was there (and sorta did) aparently him dieing though didnt spontaneously give him a few levels of wizard

also remember Roy could communicate with the oracle all fine and dandy

rgrekejin

2012-06-27, 03:33 PM

considering he demonstrated that he was able to use his magic as a ghost i think it is unreasonable
...
no none of it is, Eugene CASTED A SPELL on his little trip down to yell at roy, how is taht evidence that its impossible for a ghost to cast a spell?

I really think that my argument has been very clear up until this point, but you seem to keep missing key elements of it, so again: My argument is not that the souls of the dead cannot cast spells. They obviously can. My argument is that they cannot cast spells which effect the material plane. The spell Eugene cast, Detect Scrying, only effected Eugene himself. Eugene can cast spells on himself 'til the cows come home. I don't particularly care, as he still can't effect the material plane.

For example: Say Eugene's ghost is in a room with an invisible V. Eugene casts "See Invisibility". Now Eugene can see V, whereas he couldn't before. Has Eugene effected V herself in any way? Absolutely not. For V, nothing has changed. She is still invisible, still unaware of Eugene, and still unable to interact with him. Eugene has successfully cast a spell, but it only works on himself. I suppose, theoretically, if there were another ghost present, he could cast spells on them as well. But nothing on people on the material plane. His "Detect Scrying" did exactly the same thing. It allowed Eugene to see and follow the scrying sensor, but it in no way effected how the sensor itself operated. The only times Eugene has been able to cast spells that could effect people on the material plane was the period of time during which he was in Shojo's summoning circle.

cause the plot decreed it to be so, he thought going to Azure city would let hm learn more about Xykon and maybe an easy way to kill him

Whenever someone resorts to "because the plot required it" as a serious argument, it is a sure sign that their own argument lacks merit.

also remember Roy could communicate with the oracle all fine and dandy

But that was because the Oracle was special, not anything having to do with Roy. It has no bearing on the argument. Roy couldn't communicate with anyone else on the Material Plane for the duration of that arc.

Forikroder

2012-06-27, 03:38 PM

But that was because the Oracle was special, not anything having to do with Roy. It has no bearing on the argument. Roy couldn't communicate with anyone else on the Material Plane for the duration of that arc.

and maybe the IFCC is so "special" they know how to make V cast spells that affect the material plane (not that youve provided any evidence that he couldnt anyway)

Whenever someone resorts to "because the plot required it" as a serious argument, it is a sure sign that their own argument lacks merit.

it wasnt a serious argument, the serious argument was right next to it

rgrekejin

2012-06-27, 03:52 PM

and maybe the IFCC is so "special" they know how to make V cast spells that affect the material plane (not that youve provided any evidence that he couldnt anyway)

I have provided mountains of evidence that he could not. There is a vast gulf between "You have not provided any evidence" and "I, for whatever reason, do not find your evidence to be persuasive". This is the latter, not the former. If you think my interpretation of the evidence is wrong, explain why you think so, don't just handwave it away.

Here's a new thought: Why don't you try to prove your position? Just because you deny that my position is correct doesn't mean that yours gets to be correct by default. Show me some evidence to suggest that a dead spirit can cast a spell that directly effects the Material Plane, when they are not in a summoning circle. No, "Detect Scrying" doesn't count, for a myriad of reasons previously discussed. The only thing I can think of that even remotely qualifies is V's observation that as a Ghost, she will be both vengeful and possessing her full spellcasting powers. But a Monster Manual Ghost is a type of undead that arises as a result of some fairly specific circumstances, and it's pretty clear that that isn't what the departed souls from the afterlife that look in on our world actually are.

Forikroder

2012-06-27, 06:00 PM

I have provided mountains of evidence that he could not. There is a vast gulf between "You have not provided any evidence" and "I, for whatever reason, do not find your evidence to be persuasive". This is the latter, not the former. If you think my interpretation of the evidence is wrong, explain why you think so, don't just handwave it away.

Here's a new thought: Why don't you try to prove your position? Just because you deny that my position is correct doesn't mean that yours gets to be correct by default. Show me some evidence to suggest that a dead spirit can cast a spell that directly effects the Material Plane, when they are not in a summoning circle. No, "Detect Scrying" doesn't count, for a myriad of reasons previously discussed. The only thing I can think of that even remotely qualifies is V's observation that as a Ghost, she will be both vengeful and possessing her full spellcasting powers. But a Monster Manual Ghost is a type of undead that arises as a result of some fairly specific circumstances, and it's pretty clear that that isn't what the departed souls from the afterlife that look in on our world actually are.

waht mountain of evidence? the only evidence you have is pointing out the lack of evidence thats all you have

Eugene succesfully cast a spell while visiting, uningnorable fact thats in the strip

with the way your going even if i did find evience proving you could affect the material world youd just say "oh its because it was a certain type of celestial alignment going on that brought the material plane closer to the other side so spellcasters could affect the material plane while spellcasting"

the point remains, theres no proof or evidence or the slightest hint that the IFCC can someone turn "we get to own your soul" into "we get to cast dominate person on you" i mean even assuming that is the case, wouldnt THAT be directly interfering in the material world which you so adamantly said they couldnt possibly do?

when a demon wins someone soul it jsut means it goes to there plane after the person dies instead of where its supposed to go

rgrekejin

2012-06-27, 08:37 PM

waht mountain of evidence? the only evidence you have is pointing out the lack of evidence thats all you have

Eugene succesfully cast a spell while visiting, uningnorable fact thats in the strip

with the way your going even if i did find evience proving you could affect the material world youd just say "oh its because it was a certain type of celestial alignment going on that brought the material plane closer to the other side so spellcasters could affect the material plane while spellcasting"

Forikroder, please stop ignoring the arguments I make in favor of the ones you want to argue against. From my very first post, my argument has simply been this: A deceased spellcaster cannot cast spells that effect the Material Plane without having some sort of anchor, be it a sword, an elf, or a summoning spell. There is no "at the rate you're going". My arguments, and the in-comic facts I use to support them, have been constant throughout this entire exchange. You are the one who keeps inventing new things to support his arguments, because the fact is that there is nothing in the actual comic that does support them. The fact that Eugene cast a spell that effected Eugene is absolutely beside the point. That the dead can cast spells is a premise of my argument as well as yours, so continuing to point to it and say "See! Proof!" is not going to help you win this argument. If the dead spirit of Roy were to hit a living Redcloak with his sword, it would go right through him. Nothing would happen. Why do you assume the class abilities of spellcasters work differently than the class abilities of fighters, once they are dead? Especially as all the circumstantial evidence in the comic to date seems to indicate that they do not. If Eugene could have cast an illusion to make Roy notice him, then why didn't he? Your response is to make up, completely without proof, some hackneyed system by which the Gods will personally punish anyone who does so, but will not punish someone who ties up an angel and hijacks a summoning spell, at least, not as severely. If spellcasters can effect the Material Plane as normal after their death, why don't the good spellcasters come down from the Heavens and blast evil people, or vice versa? We've already seen how easy it is for a spellcaster to wander around the Material Plane posthumously. Your response is to make up, again completely without proof, some hackneyed system by which the Gods personally punish those who would do such a thing. At this point, you've invented two complex mechanics for how the afterlife works that are never hinted at elsewhere and have never appeared in any other form of fiction, all to explain away a fact that there is no evidence to believe is wrong: that spellcasters cannot effect the Material Plane after death, unless they are summoned.

The rest of your points have been argued to exhaustion on another thread, so I will decline to repeat my refutation of them here.

veti

2012-06-27, 09:06 PM

The three fiends seem to suggest that the influence of the three spliced souls is minimal here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html

When your subject is in an extremely suggestible state, 'minimal' may be all you need...

But the fiends are basically lying at this point, even among themselves. "They have about as much effect on what the elf does as a cheerleader has on the final score of a game" - what, so she would have cast 'Familicide' anyway even if Haerta weren't there? How does that work exactly?

Basically, what they've done is to give a hand grenade to a two-year-old in a crowded mall. And then they claim what happens next is none of their doing.

Forikroder

2012-06-27, 09:16 PM

Nothing would happen. Why do you assume the class abilities of spellcasters work differently than the class abilities of fighters, once they are dead?

ill answer your question with a question

Fighter A and Mage A start travelling together, together they have alot of fun adventurers but dont get along very well

underneath the tension between them is an underlying tone of sexual tension

one night, a ghost attacks them the fighter swings at the ghost with his non-magical sword, the mage fires a magic missile at the ghost

what happens?

the fighters non-magical sword passes harmlessly through the ghost and the magicly enhanced missile of magic magicaly fired by the mage hits the ghosts

the class abilities of wizards are MAGICAL and dont need to comply to any rules or logic at all, the class abilities of Fighters includes swinging around things that do have to comply to rules and logics, if a wizard on the material plane can hit a ghost with a spell why cant a ghost hit someone on the material plane with a spell?

Your response is to make up, completely without proof, some hackneyed system by which the Gods will personally punish anyone who does so

are you reffering about the hackneyed system that Eugene refrenced?

If spellcasters can effect the Material Plane as normal after their death, why don't the good spellcasters come down from the Heavens and blast evil people, or vice versa?

why can an evil party plane shift to the LG afterlife and get killed by ghosts?
why do adventurers so willing leave an area of eternal bliss and happiness and return to a land of pain and death to fight against horrific monsters until they die another painful death?
theres alot of things that doesnt make any sense at all in the OoTSverse since its based off of DnD rules, like how does a person know what level they are? why and how do they assign skill points? why is there aptitude based of a random number? how do they know what that number is? why hasnt the world been destroyed with all the magic spells and items that would easily cause the world to collapse from there existance?

The rest of your points have been argued to exhaustion on another thread, so I will decline to repeat my refutation of them here.

geez you know someone has nothing more to say when they lose as dumb a line as this

what other thread are you even talking about? i dont remember getting into this kind of argument before

When your subject is in an extremely suggestible state, 'minimal' may be all you need...

But the fiends are basically lying at this point, even among themselves. "They have about as much effect on what the elf does as a cheerleader has on the final score of a game" - what, so she would have cast 'Familicide' anyway even if Haerta weren't there? How does that work exactly?

Basically, what they've done is to give a hand grenade to a two-year-old in a crowded mall. And then they claim what happens next is none of their doing.

youve kinda gotten alot of things mixed up here
1) if Haerta hadnt been there V would have used some other spells to exact as much pain upon the ABD as he could, probably jsut by killing him more slowly Haerta only gave him a spell to give a big BANG to the end of his revenge, not the motivation for the revenge in the first place

2) they were speaking solely on the souls affecting Vs alignment which was true all the souls could do was speak evil things

3) they never said THEY werent partly for his actions, in fact he did exactly waht they wanted him to do (though less familicde on the black dragons would have been nice) they never said THEY didnt affect his actions jsut the souls didnt

rgrekejin

2012-06-27, 09:49 PM

the class abilities of wizards are MAGICAL and dont need to comply to any rules or logic at all, the class abilities of Fighters includes swinging around things that do have to comply to rules and logics, if a wizard on the material plane can hit a ghost with a spell why cant a ghost hit someone on the material plane with a spell?

Okay. I'll be willing to grant you that force effects may be an explicit exception, although since we know that the spirits of the dead in this universe are explicitly not Monster Manual Ghosts, there may still be some wiggle room on that.

are you reffering about the hackneyed system that Eugene refrenced?

See, in this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0292.html), I think that Eugene, after being completely unable to communicate with his son through any other means, ties up an angel and hijacks a summoning spell. He then goes on to express his concern that, because he has tied up an angel and hijacked a summoning spell so that he can communicate with his son (which he could not do any other way), the Upper Planes may not let him respond to any more summonings for a while, since he did tie up an angel and hijack this one. Since the crime for which they are going to punish him is tying up an angel and hijacking a summons, which is a very simple and direct crime, I don't think that's a very hackneyed system. That seems reasonable to me.

Let's compare it to the one you propose:

You, however, think that there is some system in place in which it is illegal for dead spirits that have the power to appear to living people to do so. Unless they are summoned. Or there is a sword focus. Or something. They're really very lax about letting spirits appear to other people. Just don't do it under your own power, even though you totally could. THAT IS FORBIDDEN! You will be punished! Of course, if you tie up another sentient being and hijack a summons meant for them, you're fine. Circumventing our rules is cool, so long as you do so in an overcomplicated and underhanded manner. Just don't break them straight up. That's crossing the line. :smallsigh:

Hackneyed much?

why can an evil party plane shift to the LG afterlife and get killed by ghosts?
why do adventurers so willing leave an area of eternal bliss and happiness and return to a land of pain and death to fight against horrific monsters until they die another painful death?
theres alot of things that doesnt make any sense at all in the OoTSverse since its based off of DnD rules, like how does a person know what level they are? why and how do they assign skill points? why is there aptitude based of a random number? how do they know what that number is? why hasnt the world been destroyed with all the magic spells and items that would easily cause the world to collapse from there existance?

So... your response to my pointing out the logical conclusion of your own proposed system is to throw your hands up in the air and say "Well, why does ANYTHING happen?"

Okay.

geez you know someone has nothing more to say when they lose as dumb a line as this

what other thread are you even talking about? i dont remember getting into this kind of argument before

That would be this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243229). The one where we argue about the fiends being able to control a still-living V or not. You remember, the one where you argued that everyone in the entire comic save Tarquin, Redcloak, and the IFCC are incompetent, that Nale knows the exact locations of all of the remaining Gates but acts like he doesn't for no reason, and that it is IFCC policy to go around making bad deals to show their superiors how good they are at making deals, all so you can avoid admitting that it may be possible for the fiends to control V's soul while she is still alive.

I rest my case.

Forikroder

2012-06-27, 10:12 PM

Okay. I'll be willing to grant you that force effects may be an explicit exception, although since we know that the spirits of the dead in this universe are explicitly not Monster Manual Ghosts, there may still be some wiggle room on that.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html

See, in this comic, I think that Eugene, after being completely unable to communicate with his son through any other means, ties up an angel and hijacks a summoning spell. He then goes on to express his concern that, because he has tied up an angel and hijacked a summoning spell so that he can communicate with his son (which he could not do any other way), the Upper Planes may not let him respond to any more summonings for a while, since he did tie up an angel and hijack this one. Since the crime for which they are going to punish him is tying up an angel and hijacking a summons, which is a very simple and direct crime, I don't think that's a very hackneyed system. That seems reasonable to me.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0487.html

she seems very angry more about him pretending to be a being of pure law and good at the trial and tying up a celestial

You, however, think that there is some system in place in which it is illegal for dead spirits that have the power to appear to living people to do so. Unless they are summoned. Or there is a sword focus. Or something. They're really very lax about letting spirits appear to other people. Just don't do it under your own power, even though you totally could. THAT IS FORBIDDEN! You will be punished! Of course, if you tie up another sentient being and hijack a summons meant for them, you're fine. Circumventing our rules is cool, so long as you do so in an overcomplicated and underhanded manner. Just don't break them straight up. That's crossing the line

i was jsut saying its a possibility

That would be this thread. The one where we argue about the fiends being able to control a still-living V or not. You remember, the one where you argued that everyone in the entire comic save Tarquin, Redcloak, and the IFCC are incompetent, that Nale knows the exact locations of all of the remaining Gates but acts like he doesn't for no reason, and that it is IFCC policy to go around making bad deals to show their superiors how good they are at making deals, all so you can avoid admitting that it may be possible for the fiends to control V's soul while she is still alive.

doesnt ring a bell

it sounded familiar until you started making it sound like its odd for Nale to be incompetent

So... your response to my pointing out the logical conclusion of your own proposed system is to throw your hands up in the air and say "Well, why does ANYTHING happen?"

there are alot more things in the OoTS verse that make less sense then spellcasters leaving there final reward to fly around in the material plane and try to poke people with crappy spells

rgrekejin

2012-06-28, 11:23 AM

*sigh*

You know what? This entire thing is my fault, really. I could have saved a ton of time if I had just gone to the good 'ol SRD and looked up the rules right away. The entry on "etherealness"

Etherealness

Phase spiders and certain other creatures can exist on the Ethereal Plane. While on the Ethereal Plane, a creature is called ethereal. Unlike incorporeal creatures, ethereal creatures are not present on the Material Plane.

Ethereal creatures are invisible, inaudible, insubstantial, and scentless to creatures on the Material Plane. Even most magical attacks have no effect on them. See invisibility and true seeing reveal ethereal creatures.

An ethereal creature can see and hear into the Material Plane in a 60-foot radius, though material objects still block sight and sound. (An ethereal creature can’t see through a material wall, for instance.) An ethereal creature inside an object on the Material Plane cannot see. Things on the Material Plane, however, look gray, indistinct, and ghostly. An ethereal creature can’t affect the Material Plane, not even magically. An ethereal creature, however, interacts with other ethereal creatures and objects the way material creatures interact with material creatures and objects.

Even if a creature on the Material Plane can see an ethereal creature the ethereal creature is on another plane. Only force effects can affect the ethereal creatures. If, on the other hand, both creatures are ethereal, they can affect each other normally.

A force effect originating on the Material Plane extends onto the Ethereal Plane, so that a wall of force blocks an ethereal creature, and a magic missile can strike one (provided the spellcaster can see the ethereal target). Gaze effects and abjurations also extend from the Material Plane to the Ethereal Plane. None of these effects extend from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane.

Ethereal creatures move in any direction (including up or down) at will. They do not need to walk on the ground, and material objects don’t block them (though they can’t see while their eyes are within solid material).

Ghosts have a power called manifestation that allows them to appear on the Material Plane as incorporeal creatures. Still, they are on the Ethereal Plane, and another ethereal creature can interact normally with a manifesting ghost. Ethereal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as air. Ethereal creatures do not fall or take falling damage.

And before you raise any objections about that last paragraph, it is referring to "Ghosts" as the monster type, which Eugene is not (as he does not have a corrupting touch, a life-draining touch, the ability to possess the living, a fort-save-inducing hideous appearance, etc). Eugene can only manifest via the (complete) Greenhilt Sword or a summoning spell.

SoC175

2012-06-28, 12:07 PM

between plane shifts and soul splices theres no reason for the IFCC to care if Vs dead or alive afterall,Well, by that logic they don't need V at all and could just send any of the thousands of dead wizards they have at their disposal.

I think that they aren't allowed to just send dead back to do their work whenever and wherever the they need them and thus need to have an agent who happens to be already there when needed

PS: As far as the rules are concerned ghost in D&D can cast spells like anyone else, although they may have trouble handling material components

Forikroder

2012-06-28, 10:02 PM

Well, by that logic they don't need V at all and could just send any of the thousands of dead wizards they have at their disposal.

exactly i mean they already have control of 3 epic level souls, why not get someone to true ressurect them and have them do whatever they need?

they obviously need V for some ridiculously complicated/secret plan we could never guess because there is simply so many ways to get stronger help alot easier

hell they could probably recruit Xykon if they tried hard enough at it and found some solid proof Redcloak is betraying him

rgrekejin

2012-06-28, 10:19 PM

exactly i mean they already have control of 3 epic level souls, why not get someone to true ressurect them and have them do whatever they need?

Why would a living Haerta, Ganonron, or Jephton actually do what the IFCC tells them? Straight-up bring them back to life, and they have "Wild Card" written all over them.

Forikroder

2012-06-28, 10:46 PM

Why would a living Haerta, Ganonron, or Jephton would actually do what the IFCC tells them? Straight-up bring them back to life, and they have "Wild Card" written all over them.

why would a dead Haerta, Ganonron or Jephton (holy cow those dudes had names?) do what the IFCC tells them?

why would a living V do what the IFCC tells him?

the IFCC obviously owns there souls (aside from V) or they wouldnt be splicing them onto people like that so if they revive them then (according to the Forumites) theyd control there actions

odd that despite them owning Haertas soul she managed to escape... its almost like owning someones soul is not the same as direct control over there actions....

rgrekejin

2012-06-28, 11:12 PM

the IFCC obviously owns there souls (aside from V) or they wouldnt be splicing them onto people like that so if they revive them then (according to the Forumites) theyd control there actions.

Ah, but if they return them to life, then the IFCC has no more claim over their souls, not until they are dead again. The IFCC only controls souls that have been damned to the lower planes... something which obviously cannot apply to someone who is still alive. They would, in the words of Xykon, have escaped from the Big Fire Below. One of the reasons that taking control of V's soul while she is still alive is such a common theory is that, due to the special nature of the arrangement, it would give the IFCC highly precise control over a still-living being, something they wouldn't have over any of their three Epic casters, should they be returned to life.

Forikroder

2012-06-28, 11:15 PM

Ah, but if they return them to life, then the IFCC has no more claim over their souls, not until they are dead again. They would, in the words of Xykon, have escaped from the Big Fire Below. One of the reasons that taking control of V's soul while she is still alive is such a common theory is that, due to the special nature of the arrangement, it would give the IFCC highly precise control over a still-living being, something they wouldn't have over any of their three Epic casters, should they be returned to life.

why not jsut say "yo Haerta well return you to life if you promise us your soul deal?"

or "anyone want to come back to life in excahnge for a small favour?"

or "if anyone wants to give us a hand on a project we promise you the entire material plane"

also why would ressurecting them return to them ownership of there soul but they can take Vs soul while hes alive?

rgrekejin

2012-06-28, 11:25 PM

why not jsut say "yo Haerta well return you to life if you promise us your soul deal?"

or "anyone want to come back to life in excahnge for a small favour?"

or "if anyone wants to give us a hand on a project we promise you the entire material plane"

also why would ressurecting them return to them ownership of there soul but they can take Vs soul while hes alive?

*shrug*

I don't know. I don't know what the IFCC can or can't do. Maybe it isn't even within their power to raise them from the dead... after all, they do have a non-compete clause with the Evil Gods. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) Maybe they consider it inefficient... dead Epic level spellcasters are a pretty rare resource, losing one to accomplish a goal you could potentially achieve through some other means is probably not something they're keen to do. Maybe they have no way of enforcing any bargain they make with them. I can easily see Ganonron, upon getting his mortal life back, just Epic Teleporting away to somewhere where the IFCC can't reach him. There are lots of potential explanations. We don't know enough to say one way or another to say why the IFCC doesn't just bring them back to life to do their bidding. All we know is that they don't (or, at least, haven't yet).

Forikroder

2012-06-28, 11:55 PM

*shrug*

I don't know. I don't know what the IFCC can or can't do. Maybe it isn't even within their power to raise them from the dead... after all, they do have a non-compete clause with the Evil Gods. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) Maybe they consider it inefficient... dead Epic level spellcasters are a pretty rare resource, losing one to accomplish a goal you could potentially achieve through some other means is probably not something they're keen to do. Maybe they have no way of enforcing any bargain they make with them. I can easily see Ganonron, upon getting his mortal life back, just Epic Teleporting away to somewhere where the IFCC can't reach him. There are lots of potential explanations. We don't know enough to say one way or another to say why the IFCC doesn't just bring them back to life to do their bidding. All we know is that they don't (or, at least, haven't yet).

probably because owning someones soul doesnt give you control over them

they get to choose where the soul goes (as long as its not in its mortal host) so the soul has value to them and they can do things like shackle it to people or do whatever they do to souls within there plane but owning the soul doesnt give them control over the person (hence Haerta escaping)

SoC175

2012-06-29, 07:29 PM

Forikroder

2012-06-29, 08:07 PM

And then the freshly resurrected epic wizard flips them the bird and ignores the deal.

They're epic level casters, it could take centuries until they die again and can be punished

so whats stopping V from flipping the IFCC the bird?

Emperordaniel

2012-06-30, 06:38 AM

so whats stopping V from flipping the IFCC the bird?
He's not Epic. Haerta and the others down there are.

Forikroder

2012-06-30, 08:32 AM

He's not Epic. Haerta and the others down there are.

doesnt matter unless they somehow research a spell specifically made to destroy the contract they made with the IFCC

SoC175

2012-06-30, 09:02 AM

doesnt matter unless they somehow research a spell specifically made to destroy the contract they made with the IFCCBeing epic they're likely to just resist the ICC's attempt to control them while V can be taken over with relative ease.

They don't need to destroy the contract, they just chose to not fulfill it and as epic level casters are much harder to be forced to hold to their end of the bargain than non-epic characters

Forikroder

2012-06-30, 09:21 AM

Being epic they're likely to just resist the ICC's attempt to control them while V can be taken over with relative ease.

They don't need to destroy the contract, they just chose to not fulfill it and as epic level casters are much harder to be forced to hold to their end of the bargain than non-epic characters

so all V has to do is make his will save or get a dispel magic from Durkon and hes safe from IFCC interuption?

good to know

i absolutely love the double standard, V who sold his soul can get called on to do whatever they want whenever they want, but everyone else doesnt have to do what the IFCC wants

rgrekejin

2012-06-30, 12:59 PM

so all V has to do is make his will save or get a dispel magic from Durkon and hes safe from IFCC interuption?

good to know

i absolutely love the double standard, V who sold his soul can get called on to do whatever they want whenever they want, but everyone else doesnt have to do what the IFCC wants

*claps* Well done, that strawman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) won't be getting up anytime soon. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWarOnStraw)

I was done with this thread, I so absolutely was. At least Michael Corleone shares my frustration. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU)

Has it somehow escaped your notice that V is not Epic level? Do you not get that Epic level characters are stronger than characters who are not Epic? Epic characters, as has been amply demonstrated by now, are on an entirely different level than mid-level characters. With V, the IFCC doesn't need to worry about her pulling out an Epic Teleport to escape someplace the IFCC can't follow, or unleashing a Superb Dispelling to disrupt their attempts at control, or casting some Epic abjuration that puts her beyond the reach of the fiends, or actually making a Will save with a DC of 50. With Epic casters? They do have to worry about those things. It's not a double standard if the two things being compared are as different as apples and black bears. A mid-level wizard is much easier to control than one who can swat a CR 19 Ancient Black Dragon like a fly. Your arguing otherwise is patent nonsense. No one other than you has ever suggested that a simple dispel magic or a low-DC Will save is all that would be needed to escape IFCC control. If you're going to debate on these forums, argue against other people's actual arguments, don't make up whatever arguments you feel like arguing against and then pretending that's what the other person said.

SoC175

2012-06-30, 06:54 PM

so all V has to do is make his will save or get a dispel magic from Durkon and hes safe from IFCC interuption?Likely a very high will save or something much more powerfull than a mere dispel magic, but yes.

good to knowThat the ICC is not all-powerful? Yes, that's good to know

i absolutely love the double standard, V who sold his soul can get called on to do whatever they want whenever they want, but everyone else doesnt have to do what the IFCC wantsThere's no double standard. Anyone who is too weak is simply too weak while anyone powerful enough is simply powerful enough

A level 32 wizard isn't just twice as powerful as a level 16 wizard, it's a different order of magnitude between them.

Forikroder

2012-06-30, 10:07 PM

*claps* Well done, that strawman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) won't be getting up anytime soon. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheWarOnStraw)

I was done with this thread, I so absolutely was. At least Michael Corleone shares my frustration. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU)

Has it somehow escaped your notice that V is not Epic level? Do you not get that Epic level characters are stronger than characters who are not Epic? Epic characters, as has been amply demonstrated by now, are on an entirely different level than mid-level characters. With V, the IFCC doesn't need to worry about her pulling out an Epic Teleport to escape someplace the IFCC can't follow, or unleashing a Superb Dispelling to disrupt their attempts at control, or casting some Epic abjuration that puts her beyond the reach of the fiends, or actually making a Will save with a DC of 50. With Epic casters? They do have to worry about those things. It's not a double standard if the two things being compared are as different as apples and black bears. A mid-level wizard is much easier to control than one who can swat a CR 19 Ancient Black Dragon like a fly. Your arguing otherwise is patent nonsense. No one other than you has ever suggested that a simple dispel magic or a low-DC Will save is all that would be needed to escape IFCC control. If you're going to debate on these forums, argue against other people's actual arguments, don't make up whatever arguments you feel like arguing against and then pretending that's what the other person said.

so what your saying is you also agree that the IFCC will be using a regular magic spell to take control of V as well then?

so in other words, you believe the IFCC will be casting a spell on someone in the material plane?

rgrekejin

2012-06-30, 10:32 PM

so what your saying is you also agree that the IFCC will be using a regular magic spell to take control of V as well then?

so in other words, you believe the IFCC will be casting a spell on someone in the material plane?

What in the world are you going on about? I said nothing of the sort.

If the IFCC were to restore one of their dead Epic spellcasters to life, they would probably need to have some method of controlling them which would either involve some form of magic, or the threat of the use of some form of magic at a later date. Such magic, even if it could be applied to said spellcaster before they returned to the material plane, would be significantly easier for them to resist than a similar effect would be for V. That was the sole point of that argument. I certainly don't think they're going to cast a control spell on a dead V and then return her to life, because I don't think V is going to die (at least, not before the IFCC takes their time). So none of this argument really even applies to her situation. It just explains why the IFCC doesn't just revive their own dead Epic casters. That, and, as I pointed out before, they may not even be able to, due to their non-compete clause with the Evil Gods.

Moreover, control over V was specifically stipulated as part of her deal with the IFCC. So it's covered by the "except in the course of a deal" clause. Truthfully, I don't know how the control over V's soul would work... it might count as magic, but it might not. It is certainly not a regular magic spell. The rules for how it works from the Fiendish Codex II are... murky at best as to whether it counts as magic or if it something significantly more primordial. But even if it is magic, the fiends have established their ability to act on the Material Plane in this matter as part of their deal with V.

Forikroder

2012-06-30, 10:41 PM

Moreover, control over V was specifically stipulated as part of their deal.

wrong

they did not say "we get to control you for the same amount of time you controlled the souls" they said "we get your soul for the same amount of time you control the souls"

according to YOU owning a soul = controlling a person (though despite them owning Haertas soul shes very free willed)

when i asked why they dont just ressurect one of there dead spellcasters on the condition they still own that persons soul it was said that the epic spellcasters would jsut resist the magic

therefore, in order for them to control V they must cast a spell on him while he is in the Material Plane

So it's covered by the "except in the course of a deal" clause.

also wrong

they said they cant interfere in the Material World unless there MAKING a deal, they already made a deal with V, unless V decides to make another deal they cant touch him while hes in the material plane

its conceivable that if he goes to a different plane they might be able to go there and do something to him but due to his prohibited schools of Magic hes incapable of returning to the material plane under his own power

rgrekejin

2012-07-01, 12:19 AM

wrong

they did not say "we get to control you for the same amount of time you controlled the souls" they said "we get your soul for the same amount of time you control the souls"

according to YOU owning a soul = controlling a person (though despite them owning Haertas soul shes very free willed)

when i asked why they dont just ressurect one of there dead spellcasters on the condition they still own that persons soul it was said that the epic spellcasters would jsut resist the magic

therefore, in order for them to control V they must cast a spell on him while he is in the Material Plane

...well, you completely took that one word (control) out of the context of the rest of the paragraph and jumped on it to make a point completely unrelated to the rest of the arguments surrounding it, but I still don't think it gives you a good argument. There are maybe six or seven different ways I could rebut this, but I'll keep some of them in my back pocket for later. They mostly revolve around how the logic from your 3rd to your 4th paragraph is a complete non sequitur. It doesn't matter, though, because even if they do need to cast a spell on V (a fact which I don't think is actually in evidence) they are totally allowed to do so in this one instance. See my argument below.

also wrong

they said they cant interfere in the Material World unless there MAKING a deal, they already made a deal with V, unless V decides to make another deal they cant touch him while hes in the material plane

its conceivable that if he goes to a different plane they might be able to go there and do something to him but due to his prohibited schools of Magic hes incapable of returning to the material plane under his own power

You know, as I was typing out my argument in the previous post, I realized that this little land mine was there, and I purposefully left it in just to see if you would step on it or not. And, right on cue, you have.

They can't interfere in the Material Plane unless making a deal? Taking V's soul doesn't counts as part of making the deal? Well, V's contract with the Fiends has three parts:

1. The Negotiation of the Deal (the talking)
2. The Rendering of the Service (the Soul Splice)
3. The Collection of Payment (yet to be seen)

If, as your logic implies, the IFCC can ONLY interact with the Material Plane in the course of making a deal, then you know what they can't do? They can't actually give V the Soul Splice! Because the second V agreed to take their deal, their power to influence the Material World should have stopped right then! At that exact moment! The deal was done, sealed. The Splice itself wasn't part of making the deal, it was part of fulfilling the deal that they had already made. Collecting their time with V's soul is also part of fulfilling their deal. By your logic, the IFCC wouldn't be allowed to do either of those things. But since the Fiends did give V the Soul Splice, your argument here is obviously wrong.

skaddix

2012-07-01, 03:52 AM

Forikroder

2012-07-01, 09:31 AM

ou know, as I was typing out my argument in the previous post, I realized that this little land mine was there, and I purposefully left it in just to see if you would step on it or not. And, right on cue, you have.

They can't interfere in the Material Plane unless making a deal? Taking V's soul doesn't counts as part of making the deal? Well, V's contract with the Fiends has three parts:

1. The Negotiation of the Deal (the talking)
2. The Rendering of the Service (the Soul Splice)
3. The Collection of Payment (yet to be seen)

If, as your logic implies, the IFCC can ONLY interact with the Material Plane in the course of making a deal, then you know what they can't do? They can't actually give V the Soul Splice! Because the second V agreed to take their deal, their power to influence the Material World should have stopped right then! At that exact moment! The deal was done, sealed. The Splice itself wasn't part of making the deal, it was part of fulfilling the deal that they had already made. Collecting their time with V's soul is also part of fulfilling their deal. By your logic, the IFCC wouldn't be allowed to do either of those things. But since the Fiends did give V the Soul Splice, your argument here is obviously wrong.

no it wouldnt have

they entered the material plane with a powerful time stop once V opened the letter to make a deal, then they started talking and negotiating with V and eventually came out with the terams of A deal, nowhere does it say they can only make one deal with V, they finished MAKING one deal (which includes providing the services but does not include (in this case) recieving payment because the payment is something they get after death) they could ahve made a second deal with V but V left, if the payment had been soemthing like an arm or a leg or gold or something then they probably would have recieved payment up front

but since its a soul they couldnt recieve payment up front

its the same in that V couldnt ask for the service at a later date, he couldnt ask for the splice to start in a few days because the IFCC could only offer services in the limited window they had same as they cant ask for payment outside that window

rgrekejin

2012-07-01, 10:38 AM

no it wouldnt have

they entered the material plane with a powerful time stop once V opened the letter to make a deal, then they started talking and negotiating with V and eventually came out with the terams of A deal, nowhere does it say they can only make one deal with V, they finished MAKING one deal (which includes providing the services but does not include (in this case) recieving payment because the payment is something they get after death) they could ahve made a second deal with V but V left, if the payment had been soemthing like an arm or a leg or gold or something then they probably would have recieved payment up front

but since its a soul they couldnt recieve payment up front

its the same in that V couldnt ask for the service at a later date, he couldnt ask for the splice to start in a few days because the IFCC could only offer services in the limited window they had same as they cant ask for payment outside that window

No. You're simply wrong. Your logic is inconsistent. How close the providing of the service was, temporally, to the end of making the deal is totally irrelevant. They finished making the deal the second V agrees to it, and then went on to fulfilling it, which is (according to your logic, not mine) a separate action than actually making the deal. That the fulfilment happened right after they finished making the deal doesn't matter at all, the IFCC is still cheating if that is the case.

You can logically argue that negotiating, fulfilling, and then collecting payment for the deal all constitute part of making the deal (which is what I do).

You can logically argue that negotiating the deal, fulfilling it, and the collecting payment are all separate entities. This is logically consistent, but not true, because the Fiends were able to give V the soul splice.

You can not logically argue that negotiating the deal and providing the service both count as part of "making the deal", but that collecting the payment doesn't. Either providing the service and collecting the payment are both part of making the deal, or neither is. It is not logically consistent to say that one is and the other isn't. It doesn't matter if the fulfilment occurred one second or one thousand years after the deal was done being negotiated, it is still not part of "making" the deal in the strictest sense. In order to include fulfilment of the deal as a part of "making the deal", you must also include collecting payment for the deal as part of making the deal. To suggest otherwise is to use a convenient double standard to prop up an argument that lacks the legs to stand on its own.

Forikroder

2012-07-01, 10:47 AM

No. You're simply wrong. Your logic is inconsistent. How close the providing of the service was, temporally, to the end of making the deal is totally irrelevant. They finished making the deal the second V agrees to it, and then went on to fulfilling it, which is (according to your logic, not mine) a separate action than actually making the deal. That the fulfilment happened right after they finished making the deal doesn't matter at all, the IFCC is still cheating if that is the case.

You can logically argue that negotiating, fulfilling, and then collecting payment for the deal all constitute part of making the deal (which is what I do).

You can logically argue that negotiating the deal, fulfilling it, and the collecting payment are all separate entities. This is logically consistent, but not true, because the Fiends were able to give V the soul splice.

You can not logically argue that negotiating the deal and providing the service both count as part of "making the deal", but that collecting the payment doesn't. Either providing the service and collecting the payment are both part of making the deal, or neither is. It is not logically consistent to say that one is and the other isn't. It doesn't matter if the fulfilment occurred one second or one thousand years after the deal was done being negotiated, it is still not part of "making" the deal in the strictest sense. In order to include fulfilment of the deal as a part of "making the deal", you must also include collecting payment for the deal as part of making the deal. To suggest otherwise is to use a convenient double standard to prop up an argument that lacks the legs to stand on its own.

V was still hanging around, until he teleported out they were still making a deal nothing was stopping them from making another deal with V nor was the deal done until there services were rendered

for the entire time the IFCC were on the Material plane they were "making a deal" once they returned to th elower planes they were no longer "making a deal" and couldnt interefere anymore

rgrekejin

2012-07-01, 10:59 AM

V was still hanging around, until he teleported out they were still making a deal nothing was stopping them from making another deal with V nor was the deal done until there services were rendered

for the entire time the IFCC were on the Material plane they were "making a deal" once they returned to th elower planes they were no longer "making a deal" and couldnt interefere anymore

I'll grant you that they could have made a second deal with V, but under what authority does that give them the ability to grant a soul splice? That's not being done under the purview of making a deal, it's being done under the fulfilment of a pre-existing deal. Unless you think that the IFCC can pop out of an envelope to offer a deal to Joe Commoner and do whatever the heck they want on the Material Plane until they make a deal with him, this argument doesn't hold water.

Also, "nor was the deal done until there services were rendered"? Under what wacky definition of "a deal being done" are services rendered, but no payment extracted? If I tell my car dealer that I don't have to keep paying him because our "deal was done" as soon as he handed me my keys, do I have a valid legal argument? I think not. If we reach an agreement, but he never gives me the car, then I don't have to pay him. That's one possibility. The deal was negotiated, but since neither side had the power to act on it, no one actually owns anyone anything. The other possibility is that he gives me the car, and I owe him money. The IFCC gave V the car, and the deal is not "complete" until they've received payment. I refuse to let you define "making a deal" in the wacky, nonsensical way necessary to support your argument.

Forikroder

2012-07-01, 11:29 AM

The IFCC gave V the car, and the deal is not "complete" until they've received payment.

you buy a car, you make a deal with the car maker, you give me this car and ill pay you X amount every month until ive payed off the total of the car

same deal here

well give you these splices, and you ahve to give us your soul once your dead

its just like buying a car and making a deal with the car owner that you dont have to pay until you die and putting into your will that X amount of money goes to the car dealer

I'll grant you that they could have made a second deal with V, but under what authority does that give them the ability to grant a soul splice? That's not being done under the purview of making a deal, it's being done under the fulfilment of a pre-existing deal. Unless you think that the IFCC can pop out of an envelope to offer a deal to Joe Commoner and do whatever the heck they want on the Material Plane until they make a deal with him, this argument doesn't hold water.

there must be someone who told the IFCC "no interfering with the Material plane unless you making a deal" so that same person must be monitoring them while there making a deal and ready to punish them if they do something while there in the material plane that isnt related to the deal there making

its pretty obvious the IFCC isnt working on the honour system here

rgrekejin

2012-07-01, 11:53 AM

you buy a car, you make a deal with the car maker, you give me this car and ill pay you X amount every month until ive payed off the total of the car

same deal here

well give you these splices, and you ahve to give us your soul once your dead

its just like buying a car and making a deal with the car owner that you dont have to pay until you die and putting into your will that X amount of money goes to the car dealer

And therein lies the crux of our disagreement. The bolded portion is never mentioned anywhere in the deal, and is simply your opinion. If the IFCC decides to claim their time with V's soul before she dies, she has no legal argument to say they're done anything wrong, because nothing in her contract with them said their time with her soul had to be post mortem. You think it has to be, but you have no evidence for this. This falls under the category of "predictions" and cannot be used as evidence. And, as I have shown earlier, if the IFCC decided to take their time with V's soul while she is still alive, it would be pursuant to their arranged deal, and they would be allowed to do so.

there must be someone who told the IFCC "no interfering with the Material plane unless you making a deal" so that same person must be monitoring them while there making a deal and ready to punish them if they do something while there in the material plane that isnt related to the deal there making

its pretty obvious the IFCC isnt working on the honour system here

And as I've outlined here, based on what the IFCC has been shown to be able to do in the course of a deal, there is no reason to suspect that said third party would in any way object to them taking their time with the soul of a living V.

Seriously. That's all this boils down to. You think the IFCC can't take their time with V's soul while she's still alive. But you have no evidence to back up that position. None. Even if that does turn out to be what happens, that does not change the fact that, at this point in time, you had no evidence to support the assertion that the Fiends can't take V's soul while she is still alive. You think they can't, and that's all well and good, but stop trying to argue it like it's a fact supported by evidence. There's nothing wrong with having opinions, you are entitled to them. But no matter how many words you put behind them, your opinions, without evidence, will never hold the force of fact. You will notice that I am not arguing that the Fiends will certainly, absolutely, take V's soul while she is still alive. What I am arguing is that your assertion that it is impossible that they do so is groundless.

Forikroder

2012-07-01, 11:58 AM

And therein lies the crux of our disagreement. The bolded portion is never mentioned anywhere in the deal, and is simply your opinion. If the IFCC decides to claim their time with V's soul before she dies, she has no legal argument to say they're done anything wrong, because nothing in her contract with them said their time with her soul had to be post mortem. You think it has to be, but you have no evidence for this. This falls under the category of "predictions" and cannot be used as evidence. And, as I have shown earlier, if the IFCC decided to take their time with V's soul while she is still alive, it would be pursuant to their arranged deal, and they would be allowed to do so.
no it wouldnt, they were given time on the Material plane to make there deal, that time is gone so they cant do a thing until V dies

And as I've outlined here, based on what the IFCC has been shown to be able to do in the course of a deal, there is no reason to suspect that said third party would in any way object to them taking their time with the soul of a living V.

yes this third party would, the IFCC is not making a deal, there not in the process of making a deal, V doesnt want to make another deal, it would jsut be the IFCC affecting the mortal plane completely unrelated to them making a deal

Seriously. That's all this boils down to. You think the IFCC can't take their time with V's soul while she's still alive. But you have on evidence to back up that position. None. Even if that does turn out to be what happens, that does not change the fact that, at this point in time, you had no evidence to support the assertion that the Fiends can't take V's soul while she is still alive. You think they can't, and that's all well and good, but stop trying to argue it like it's a fact supported by evidence. There's nothing wrong with having opinions, you are entitled to them. But no matter how many words you put behind them, your opinions, without evidence, will never hold the force of fact.

which is odd because aparently YOUR OPINION does hold the force of fact

you keep saying "oh you dont have evidence so im right" without putting up any evidence yourself

rgrekejin

2012-07-01, 12:19 PM

no it wouldnt, they were given time on the Material plane to make there deal, that time is gone so they cant do a thing until V dies

yes this third party would, the IFCC is not making a deal, there not in the process of making a deal, V doesnt want to make another deal, it would jsut be the IFCC affecting the mortal plane completely unrelated to them making a deal

And yet the third party was just fine with the IFCC giving V a soul splice, something which was not part of making a deal, but rather part of fulfilling a deal which was already made? I pointed this out already today: either "making the deal" consists of negotiating, fulfilling, and collecting payment for a deal, or it consists of negotiation only. As you have given me no logical to back off that statement, I will hold here until you do.

which is odd because aparently YOUR OPINION does hold the force of fact

you keep saying "oh you dont have evidence so im right" without putting up any evidence yourself

The difference is, of course, that you are making a claim: We know, with 100% certainty, that the IFCC cannot take V's soul while she is still alive. You are making a claim to know a fact. I am not making a claim to know a fact. I am saying that uncertainty exists around the issue of whether or not the IFCC can take V's soul while is still alive, so we cannot claim to know a fact one way or the other. What I am not saying is that the IFCC will, without a doubt, take V's soul while she is still alive. If I were, I would need to prove that, but, again, that is not what I am saying. All I need to do to prove uncertainty is to show that your evidence is not conclusive. Which I have amply done. If I were actually trying to prove that the IFCC were going to take V's soul while she was alive, no doubt and no questions, then "you haven't provided any evidence either" would be a valid criticism. But that is not, and never has been, what I am arguing (never mind the fact that I usually provide links to comics that help illustrate my point, and I have actually provided quite a bit of evidence to counter your claims).

In short: you are arguing for an affirmative. I am not. The burden of proof is on you, and you have failed to meet it. It isn't my fault that logic works this way.

Forikroder

2012-07-01, 12:26 PM

And yet the third party was just fine with the IFCC giving V a soul splice, something which was not part of making a deal, but rather part of fulfilling a deal which was already made? I pointed this out already today: either "making the deal" consists of negotiating, fulfilling, and collecting payment for a deal, or it consists of negotiation only. As you have given me no logical to back off that statement, I will hold here until you do.

lets look at the timeline

V has Quarr apply him for demonic assistance

Quarr gets the letter and hands it to V

V opens the letter starting the time stop and summoning the Directers, the Directers are now "making a deal"

the Directers and V chat, banter and negotiate until they decide upon a deal

V teleports away

the Directers disapear (NOTE: neither the Directers apearing or disapearing was accompanied by them casting a spell, they jsut apeared when the letter was opened and disapeared after they were done)

so everything that happened after the letter was opened and before they disapeared constituted them "making a deal"

You are making a claim: We know, with 100% certainty, that the IFCC cannot take V's soul while she is still alive. You are making a claim to know a fact. I am not making a claim to know a fact. I am saying that uncertainty exists around the issue of whether or not the IFCC can take V's soul while is still alive, so we cannot claim to know a fact one way or the other. What I am not saying is that the IFCC will, without a doubt, take V's soul while she is still alive.

its my mouth, dont put words in it

i am saying there is absolutely no evidence at all in any form that in any way hints in the slightest at all in any possible definition that the IFCC can take Vs soul while hes alive, and also no evidence or hint that owning someones soul gives you control over them

rgrekejin

2012-07-01, 12:35 PM

so everything that happened after the letter was opened and before they disapeared constituted them "making a deal"

No, it doesn't. You just keep saying it does. Once V accepted the deal, the negotiations were ended, and the deal was made. Then the Fiends gave V the Soul Splices, fulfilling the deal. Just because it happened right after they finished making the deal doesn't make it part of "making the deal" any more than "closing my book" is part of "reading". They are closely linked temporally, but they are not the same thing. Please furnish me with a logically consistent rationale for how providing the services specified in a contract counts as part of "making a deal" but collecting the payment for said services does not. How close together in time the two events occur does not count.

its my mouth, dont put words in it

i am saying there is absolutely no evidence at all in any form that in any way hints in the slightest at all in any possible definition that the IFCC can take Vs soul while hes alive, and also no evidence or hint that owning someones soul gives you control over them

I'm sorry, I considered this thread to be more or less an extension of our earlier debate on "The Oracle Thread". Are you saying that this:
whatever purpose they have planned for Vs soul, its going to be alot more complicated then just using his soul to go for a joy ride in the mortal plane and it is 100% going to be after he dies is no longer your position?

Forikroder

2012-07-01, 12:47 PM

I'm sorry, I considered this thread to be more or less an extension of our earlier debate on "The Oracle Thread".

theres a reason that were no longer in that thread

its because were arguing a different thing

No, it doesn't. You just keep saying it does. Once V accepted the deal, the negotiations were ended, and the deal was made. Then the Fiends gave V the Soul Splices, fulfilling the deal. Just because it happened right after they finished making the deal doesn't make it part of "making the deal" any more than "closing my book" is part of "reading". They are closely linked temporally, but they are not the same thing. Please furnish me with a logically consistent rationale for how providing the services specified in a contract counts as part of "making a deal" but collecting the payment for said services does not. How close together in time the two events occur does not count.

evidently your definition of what the directers meant when they said "making a deal" is not there definition then huh?

although it could be argued since what gave V the splices was touching the orb, and by touching the orb he agreed to the deal and by agreeing to the deal the deal was made

its not like V said "i agree to the deal" then after saying that was given the splices, actually the Directers never cast any magic while in the Material plane unless you count summoning the orbs, we cant even say for certain that they were the ones who owned the 3 souls that got shackled onto V

rgrekejin

2012-07-01, 12:52 PM

evidently your definition of what the directers meant when they said "making a deal" is not there definition then huh?

Well, that or you're wrong. Since one of these explanations involves a very bizarre and counter-intuitive definition of what it means to "make a deal", and it isn't mine, I hold that the evidence favors me on this one.

Forikroder

2012-07-01, 12:59 PM

Well, that or you're wrong. Since one of these explanations involves a very bizarre and counter-intuitive definition of what it means to "make a deal", and it isn't mine, I hold that the evidence favors me on this one.

how? the story went following my definition in yours the IFCC somehow manage to cheat the third party to finish the deal

V got the splices and by getting the splices agreed to the deal

by accepting the splices V agreed to the deal which meant after he died his soul goes to each directer for a time equal to time he kept the splice

he didnt agree then got the splices he got the splices which meant he agreed

rgrekejin

2012-07-01, 01:15 PM

how? the story went following my definition in yours the IFCC somehow manage to cheat the third party to finish the deal

V got the splices and by getting the splices agreed to the deal

by accepting the splices V agreed to the deal which meant after he died his soul goes to each directer for a time equal to time he kept the splice

he didnt agree then got the splices he got the splices which meant he agreed

Do you read the things I write? I don't think the IFCC cheated the third party, that is the logical outcome of your wacky explanation. I'll break it down for you one last time. Don't just pick and choose things to argue against, argue against the whole thing:

There are three parts to the deal. The negotiation, the service, and the payment. Under my theory, all three of those are part of "making a deal". So the Fiends have the authority to negotiate with V, give her the splices, and then collect their payment later.

Under your theory, the negotiation and the service are fused in to one thing as part of "making a deal", but for no reason whatsoever other than it needs to be true for your theory to work, collection of payment is excluded from being part of "making a deal". When asked to explain why providing the service counts as part of "making a deal" even though the deal was already made and sealed at that point, your argument is that because the service was provided so soon after making the deal, it gets to count as part of it. This is a non sequitur. No matter how soon after the deal is made the service is provided, it will never, ever be part of making the deal. But since it happened, we know that the Fiends were able to do it somehow. So your explanation is wrong: either the Fiends really are allowed to collect their payment from V later (because both the service and the payment count as part of "making a deal") or the Fiends gave V the Soul Splice illegally (because neither the service or the payment count as part of "making a deal"), and our mysterious third party should have come in and beat them down. Since the latter did not happen, we have to assume that the former is true. So, I ask again: Please furnish me with a logically consistent rationale for how providing the services specified in a contract counts as part of "making a deal" but collecting the payment for said services does not. Unless you can, this argument is over.

I have been very clear in my repeated restatements of my arguments. If you misunderstand them again, and argue something that doesn't apply or is just one piece of them taken out of context, I'm just going to assume you're doing so deliberately for purposes of trolling and walk away.

Forikroder

2012-07-01, 01:20 PM

but for no reason whatsoever other than it needs to be true for your theory to work

and thats how it worked in the comic, they said if he agreed to touch the blue orb which gave him the splices

agreement to the deal and recieving the services happened at the exact same time

rgrekejin

2012-07-01, 02:30 PM

Here is the comic in question. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)

In the 4th to last panel, V touches the orb. The deal is made then. Right then. At that exact second. It's a comic, so we have freeze-frame and everything. You will notice that V does not have Soul Splices in that panel.

Everything that happens after that, from the first millionth of a second onward, is something that is happening after the deal has already been made, and cannot reasonably be construed as part of "making a deal" using the strict definition. That includes V getting the Splices. If they count as part of "making a deal" than so does the Fiends getting to collect their payment. If the Splices don't count as part of "making a payment", then the Fiends shouldn't have been able to give them to V. It's what I've been saying all along: How long after the deal is made the service is provided doesn't matter. It can be a nanosecond or a thousand years. It is still after the deal has been made.

Forikroder

2012-07-01, 02:43 PM

In the 4th to last panel, V touches the orb. The deal is made then. Right then. At that exact second. It's a comic, so we have freeze-frame and everything. You will notice that V does not have Soul Splices in that panel.

prove it

maybe the more visual effects jsut took some time to properly manifest and for the souls to make there way from the lower planes

maybe at the second he touchs it there already bound to him its jut not easy to tell

i mean its not like he was just getting buffed with a bears endurance its an extremely complicated piece of sorcery those things dont happen in a free action

rgrekejin

2012-07-01, 02:56 PM

prove it

maybe the more visual effects jsut took some time to properly manifest and for the souls to make there way from the lower planes

maybe at the second he touchs it there already bound to him its jut not easy to tell

If it takes some time from the souls to manifest from the lower planes, then you know what that means?

It means they manifest after the deal is made.

But frankly, I don't have to prove it. You're the one who is arguing for certainty in this case (the Fiends certainly can't take payment from the living V). The simple fact that you're asking me to prove it here means that you lack the means to disprove it yourself. And you know what that makes you? Uncertain.

Forikroder

2012-07-01, 02:58 PM

If it takes some time from the souls to manifest from the lower planes, then you know what that means?

It means they manifest after the deal is made.

But frankly, I don't have to prove it. You're the one who is arguing for certainty in this case (the Fiends certainly can't take payment from the living V). The simple fact that you're asking me to prove it here means that you lack the means to disprove it yourself. And you know what that makes you? Uncertain.

you cant prove your side just as much as i cant prove my side

actually less since V is in the material plane wich the fiends are on record about saying they cant interfere with

rgrekejin

2012-07-01, 03:09 PM

you cant prove your side just as much as i cant prove my side

actually less since V is in the material plane wich the fiends are on record about saying they cant interfere with

...do you just forget the content of previous posts as soon as they are no longer the ones you are actively replying to? Because we had this discussion not three hours ago:

In short: you are arguing for an affirmative. I am not. The burden of proof is on you, and you have failed to meet it. It isn't my fault that logic works this way.

Forikroder

2012-07-01, 03:18 PM

...do you just forget the content of previous posts as soon as they are no longer the ones you are actively replying to? Because we had this discussion not three hours ago:

i dont see how the burdon of proof falls on me

the fiends say that they cant touch anything in the material plane unless there negotiating a deal with it

therefore they cant touch V (who is in the material plane) unless he opens another letter

rgrekejin

2012-07-01, 03:29 PM

i dont see how the burdon of proof falls on me

You say "We know with certainty that the Fiends can't take V's soul while she is alive."

I say "We don't know enough to say that with certainty."

Since you are the one making an affirmative argument, that is, trying to prove a point, the burden of proof is on you.

the fiends say that they cant touch anything in the material plane unless there negotiating a deal with it

therefore they cant touch V (who is in the material plane) unless he opens another letter

We've been over this ad nauseum. If "making a deal" is so narrowly defined that it cuts out the Fiends' ability to collect their payment while V is on the Material Plane, then it also by extension would cut off their ability to grant V the splices in the first place. Since that didn't happen, we know it is not so narrowly defined. If you want to argue against those arguments, feel free to go back and do so. They are further up in the thread.

Forikroder

2012-07-01, 03:37 PM

You say "We know with certainty that the Fiends can't take V's soul while she is alive."

I say "We don't know enough to say that with certainty."

Since you are the one making an affirmative argument, that is, trying to prove a point, the burden of proof is on you.

except i havent said that....? all ive said is the whole "the IFCC can take his soul while hes alive" is the dumbest theory ever and only popular because its crazy so people say its true so they can claim they called it

We've been over this ad nauseum. If "making a deal" is so narrowly defined that it cuts out the Fiends' ability to collect their payment while V is on the Material Plane, then it also by extension would cut off their ability to grant V the splices in the first place. Since that didn't happen, we know it is not so narrowly defined. If you want to argue against those arguments, feel free to go back and do so. They are further up in the thread.

except as i already pointed out it only doesnt make sense to you

the deal isnt done until he touched the orb which was the same time he got the splices

and your assuming they even want the payment while hes on the material plane which again you have no evidence for

your jsut waving this crazy theory around and saying "OMG THE GIANT NEVER SAID THIS IS FALSE SO IT MUST BE TRUE I R SO SMRT"

rgrekejin

2012-07-01, 03:40 PM

your jsut waving this crazy theory around and saying "OMG THE GIANT NEVER SAID THIS IS FALSE SO IT MUST BE TRUE I R SO SMRT"

*sigh*

Why does it always take me so long to spot the Trolls?

Whatever, Forikroder. You're going on my ignore list.

Augmental

2012-07-01, 03:43 PM

Someone needs to ask TPTB if the archfiends get to control V while he's still alive. Forikroder deserves a medal for thread derailment by now. :smallsigh:

Gift Jeraff

2012-07-01, 03:48 PM

While I mostly agree with Forikroder that the archfiends won't possess V and control him/her on the material plane, is "I R SO SMRT" really an appropriate joke from the person who's constantly called out for their merciless slaughter of the English language?

lio45

2012-07-02, 02:20 PM

I have to admit, from the comic, it's pretty likely that the splices were actually given to V while he was touching the orb.

(We see V keeps his hand on the orb while the area around fills up with an expanding magic aura, then next thing we see, V is Darth V.)

rgrekejin, you've argued well overall, but on that particular aspect, I think you're wrong: IMO, from what we see, the "concluding the deal" phase (which includes the whole duration of V's touching the orb) included the "receiving the service" part.

When "concluding the deal" is over, V's spliced.

So there's no acting on the material plane outside "making the deal".

Kish

2012-07-02, 02:30 PM

Forikroder

2012-07-02, 02:37 PM

I find it EXTREMELY unlikely that the IFCC has no means of enforcing payment of Vaarsuvius' side of the deal, and highly unlikely that they will only take control of Vaarsuvius' soul when Vaarsuvius is dead, scaling up to "also EXTREMELY unlikely" if combined with "and they have no means of causing Vaarsuvius to die whenever they want him/her to die."

they do have a way of enforcing his paytment because as soon as Vaarsucious dies he has no power to do anything about it once hes dead, hes dead and theres noone to prevent the IFCC from forcing watever tortures they want upon his soul

its impossible to not die, you can live for a very long time if you want but eventually everyone dies

Emperordaniel

2012-07-02, 02:54 PM

its impossible to not die, you can live for a very long time if you want but eventually everyone dies

And there are ways to avoid death virtually forever in D&D. Or did you miss Xykon's speech to Vaarsuvius during their duel in the tower? :smallconfused:

Forikroder

2012-07-02, 02:56 PM

And there are ways to avoid death virtually forever in D&D. Or did you miss Xykon's speech to Vaarsuvius during their duel in the tower? :smallconfused:

you can live a very long time but youll eventually die

and considering Xykon is probably YOUNGER then Vaarsuvious his speech somewhat falls on deaf ears

lio45

2012-07-02, 03:00 PM

I find it EXTREMELY unlikely that the IFCC has no means of enforcing payment of Vaarsuvius' side of the deal, and highly unlikely that they will only take control of Vaarsuvius' soul when Vaarsuvius is dead, scaling up to "also EXTREMELY unlikely" if combined with "and they have no means of causing Vaarsuvius to die whenever they want him/her to die."

Agreed... Can't see what use a dead V's soul would be to them.

Plus, Rich's storyworld is meant to be full of stereotypes; that's a staple of the comic's humor. A deal with fiends that would turn out to be "what you see is what you get, no small print" would really surprise me.

On the other hand, I don't get why you think it's likely that the IFCC will want V to die at the right moment...? I mean, sure, the IFCC will want to use V at the right moment, and they won't care if he dies or not as long as the purpose is reached... but why would they want V to die?

Emperordaniel

2012-07-02, 03:05 PM

you can live a very long time but youll eventually die.

Xykon disagrees with you. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)

Oh, you poor dumb elf. Don't you get it? Be a vampire, or a ghost, or an immortal with a paint-by-numbers portrait in the rec room. Hell, even a brain-in-a-jar, in a pinch. Anything to avoid the Big Fire Below.

He pointed out several ways to avoid death right there.

Forikroder

2012-07-02, 03:09 PM

Xykon disagrees with you. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)

He pointed out several ways to avoid death right there.

to TEMPORARILY avoid death

you may be able to avoid a natural death but eventually something is gonna come stick a sword through you

Emperordaniel

2012-07-02, 03:17 PM

to TEMPORARILY avoid death

you may be able to avoid a natural death but eventually something is gonna come stick a sword through you

There's always the chance, yeah... but if you're an epic-level lich with an entire mook army, and several mid to high-level underlings as well... who's realistically going to stick a sword through you?

Or if you're not epic, then once you become an undead, you can seclude youself in some airtight cavern thousands of miles away from civilization that
1) only you know about,
2) you created yourself, or
3) both of the above.

Bingo! You're now safe from practically anything short of a deity for the rest of your immortal unlife.

Kish

2012-07-02, 03:19 PM

Agreed... Can't see what use a dead V's soul would be to them.

Plus, Rich's storyworld is meant to be full of stereotypes; that's a staple of the comic's humor. A deal with fiends that would turn out to be "what you see is what you get, no small print" would really surprise me.

On the other hand, I don't get why you think it's likely that the IFCC will want V to die at the right moment...? I mean, sure, the IFCC will want to use V at the right moment, and they won't care if he dies or not as long as the purpose is reached... but why would they want V to die?
I think it is most likely that they can, and will, control the living Vaarsuvius using their deal.

I think it is significantly less likely, but possible, that they will control Vaarsuvius' dead soul, and have a means of making Vaarsuvius die at the right time to be useful for their plan. That is, IF they cannot control the living Vaarsuvius THEN they certainly have some means of causing Vaarsuvius to die on cue.

I think it is not worth considering at all that they 1) cannot control the living Vaarsuvius AND 2) cannot cause Vaarsuvius to die at a time of their choosing.

Forikroder

2012-07-02, 03:24 PM

There's always the chance, yeah... but if you're an epic-level lich with an entire mook army, and several mid to high-level underlings as well... who's realistically going to stick a sword through you?

Or if you're not epic, then once you become an undead, you can seclude youself in some airtight cavern thousands of miles away from civilization that
1) only you know about,
2) you created yourself, or
3) both of the above.

Bingo! You're now safe from practically anything short of a deity for the rest of your immortal unlife.

so you sit in a hole doing nothing for eternity... whats the point of that?

and eventually someone will find that hole then it all snowballs to someone killing you even if its an inevitable something will find you

I think it is most likely that they can, and will, control the living Vaarsuvius using their deal.

I think it is significantly less likely, but possible, that they will control Vaarsuvius' dead soul, and have a means of making Vaarsuvius die at the right time to be useful for their plan. That is, IF they cannot control the living Vaarsuvius THEN they certainly have some means of causing Vaarsuvius to die on cue.

I think it is not worth considering at all that they 1) cannot control the living Vaarsuvius AND 2) cannot cause Vaarsuvius to die at a time of their choosing.

why do you assume that they need V at a specific time? or even need V to do anything?

SoC175

2012-07-02, 03:40 PM

you can live a very long time but youll eventually dieBut only because you're eventually killed by someone. Immortality from natural death is achievable in D&D

Emperordaniel

2012-07-02, 03:41 PM

so you sit in a hole doing nothing for eternity... whats the point of that?

and eventually someone will find that hole then it all snowballs to someone killing you even if its an inevitable something will find you

Better to sit in a cave for eternity then die and go to the Big Fire Below - at least how Xykon sees it. Also, who said it was just a hole? An intelligent undead Vaarsuvius with all of the class levels he had in life could presumably furnish everything he would need to keep him entertained - at least for a long time. Remember he has scrying spells available, so he could scry to pass the time for instance (sort of like watching TV or something). :smalltongue:

Also, I'm pretty sure that the laws of probability say that it's very unlikely for someone to stumble across the completely hidden entrance to your cave, which is located hundreds, or even thousands, of miles away from civilization - perhaps in an area that few people ever come near to in the first place. Say, a random spot in the middle of the Western Continent's desert.

why do you assume that they need V at a specific time? or even need V to do anything?

...

Why make the deal specifically with Vaarsuvius if they didn't need him for something? :smallconfused:

SoC175

2012-07-02, 03:41 PM

you can live a very long time but youll eventually dieBut only because you're eventually killed by someone. Immortality from natural death is achievable in D&D

Or if you're not epic, then once you become an undead, you can seclude youself in some airtight cavern thousands of miles away from civilization that
1) only you know about,
2) you created yourself, or
3) both of the above.

Bingo! You're now safe from practically anything short of a deity for the rest of your immortal unlife.And go mad from boredom

Emperordaniel

2012-07-02, 03:45 PM

And go mad from boredom

Can undead even go insane in D&D? Also, what's to stop a vampire (who can achieve gaseous form at will, I believe) from exiting his lair from time to time?

Kish

2012-07-02, 03:45 PM

why do you assume that they need V at a specific time? or even need V to do anything?I don't assume. I read.

SoC175

2012-07-02, 03:47 PM

Can undead even go insane in D&D? Well, at least not from ability drain/damage

Also, what's to stop a vampire (who can achieve gaseous form at will, I believe) from exiting his lair from time to time?Because that's just begging to be eventually slain by some meddling hero. Better become some sort of undead that doesn't need to feed, you'll (un)live longer for it

Emperordaniel

2012-07-02, 03:57 PM

Because that's just begging to be eventually slain by some meddling hero. Better become some sort of undead that doesn't need to feed, you'll (un)live longer for it

Pretty sure a vampire can't be killed while in gaseous form unless his coffin is destroyed; still, there is that risk that someone could kill you if you solidify or something while outside your secret lair (not to mention the fact that someone could track your gaseous form back to your cave, though I'm not sure if that one's possible by D&D rules).

As for an undead that doesn't need to eat, how about, say... a lich? :smallwink:

SoC175

2012-07-02, 04:12 PM

Pretty sure a vampire can't be killed while in gaseous form unless his coffin is destroyed; Actually he can be killed. He just gains insubstantial and DR 10/magic, but if fully attackable.

However I was actually meaning that if you go out you'll eventually bee noticed/followed/killed (damn heroes just have a tendency to do so)

As for an undead that doesn't need to eat, how about, say... a lich? :smallwink:A lich is one of the best chances, your main enemy would be boredom causing you to take risks that eventually draw attention

lio45

2012-07-02, 04:17 PM

I think it is most likely that they can, and will, control the living Vaarsuvius using their deal.

I think it is significantly less likely, but possible, that they will control Vaarsuvius' dead soul, and have a means of making Vaarsuvius die at the right time to be useful for their plan. That is, IF they cannot control the living Vaarsuvius THEN they certainly have some means of causing Vaarsuvius to die on cue.

I think it is not worth considering at all that they 1) cannot control the living Vaarsuvius AND 2) cannot cause Vaarsuvius to die at a time of their choosing.

My apologies: in retrospect, all of that was already completely clear in your original post. (I didn't get much sleep last night and have essentially been like one of Malack's zombies since the morning...)

Totally agree about what you posted, obviously.

Forikroder

2012-07-02, 04:38 PM

Better to sit in a cave for eternity then die and go to the Big Fire Below - at least how Xykon sees it.

obviously considering how reclusive he is

Also, who said it was just a hole? An intelligent undead Vaarsuvius with all of the class levels he had in life could presumably furnish everything he would need to keep him entertained - at least for a long time. Remember he has scrying spells available, so he could scry to pass the time for instance (sort of like watching TV or something).

okay then someone detects your scrying and goes to investigate

that ruins the whole point of living in the cave

Also, I'm pretty sure that the laws of probability say that it's very unlikely for someone to stumble across the completely hidden entrance to your cave, which is located hundreds, or even thousands, of miles away from civilization - perhaps in an area that few people ever come near to in the first place. Say, a random spot in the middle of the Western Continent's desert.

im sure some adventurer would stumble across it while adventuring eventually

or be walking around with detect magic on and see the huge giant aura and decide its something valuable

Why make the deal specifically with Vaarsuvius if they didn't need him for something?

oh they needed him to do something, but hes already done it

he lit a fire under Xykon

Can undead even go insane in D&D? Also, what's to stop a vampire (who can achieve gaseous form at will, I believe) from exiting his lair from time to time?

because then people figure out hes there and go kill him

wasnt the whole point of hiding in the cave so noone knows you exist?

I don't assume. I read.

read what you writ down then assume its true?

Emanick

2012-07-03, 12:39 AM

oh they needed him to do something, but hes already done it

he lit a fire under Xykon

Then why did one of the fiends say, as V was fleeing Xykon, that "if the elf dies here, all this was a waste of time?"

Emperordaniel

2012-07-03, 01:57 AM

okay then someone detects your scrying and goes to investigate

that ruins the whole point of living in the cave
That's always a possibility; still, the average scried-on commoner or other low-ranking random NPC probably doesn't have access to a Detect Scrying spell. And there are other things to do in the cave besides scrying... :smalltongue:

im sure some adventurer would stumble across it while adventuring eventually

As I said earlier, the laws of probability make that that a one-in-a-trillion chance, considering the size of the desert (70%+ of the continent's area) and the fact that the entrance is only one square meter or less in size.

or be walking around with detect magic on and see the huge giant aura and decide its something valuable
Whoa, whoa. Who said the cave has a giant magical aura? And even if it does, a little bit of mundane lead shielding or something should block it.

oh they needed him to do something, but hes already done it

he lit a fire under XykonIf that was so, then why did the fiends say - after V had already stirred Xykon up - that "if the elf dies here, this whole thing was a waste of time"? Sounds like they need him (possibly alive) for something else still.

Kalrany

2012-07-03, 01:55 PM

*sigh*

Why does it always take me so long to spot the Trolls?

Whatever, Forikroder. You're going on my ignore list.

Ahhhh.... regrekejin.... Will this help?

I was one of the ones who, upon reading the initial comics, though that V's payment would be at the time of death. Simply due to the fact that it is often the case in the literature I have read prior to reading the comic. I have been progressively swayed, by the arguments on this board in general and this thread specific, to see that it is fully possible for that to not be the case.

Congratulations -- you just convinced someone that they were wrong on the internet!

Many cookies to you!

rgrekejin

2012-07-03, 02:26 PM

Ahhhh.... regrekejin.... Will this help?

I was one of the ones who, upon reading the initial comics, though that V's payment would be at the time of death. Simply due to the fact that it is often the case in the literature I have read prior to reading the comic. I have been progressively swayed, by the arguments on this board in general and this thread specific, to see that it is fully possible for that to not be the case.

Congratulations -- you just convinced someone that they were wrong on the internet!

Many cookies to you!

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

I... I never knew such wonders were possible. It's everything I ever hoped it would be, and more. :smallsmile:

Forikroder

2012-07-03, 05:36 PM

Then why did one of the fiends say, as V was fleeing Xykon, that "if the elf dies here, all this was a waste of time?"

because if Xykon just crushs V before V actually does anything to inconvenience him wahts Xykon going to think?

"woa im so badass even the most badass elf cant touch me, im such a badass" or "woa there are people after me i better haul ass and get back to conquering a gate i mean next time they might scuff my robes"

That's always a possibility; still, the average scried-on commoner or other low-ranking random NPC probably doesn't have access to a Detect Scrying spell. And there are other things to do in the cave besides scrying...

im pretty sure any spell that makes you immortal causes your flesh to rot away

As I said earlier, the laws of probability make that that a one-in-a-trillion chance, considering the size of the desert (70%+ of the continent's area) and the fact that the entrance is only one square meter or less in size.

so its even more likely then one in a million?

remember there are being in the OoTS verse who make it there lifes work to hunt down beings who try to live forever and kill them

Whoa, whoa. Who said the cave has a giant magical aura?

gee i dunno, maybe the spells forcing your body into a semblance of life?

Emperordaniel

2012-07-03, 06:24 PM

im pretty sure any spell that makes you immortal causes your flesh to rot awayObviously, you've never heard of vampires. Pretty sure their flesh isn't all grotesquely rotten. :smallannoyed:

so its even more likely then one in a million?

remember there are being in the OoTS verse who make it there lifes work to hunt down beings who try to live forever and kill them
...wha? A one-in-a-trillion chance is hundreds of billions of times less likely than a one-in-a-million chance.

gee i dunno, maybe the spells forcing your body into a semblance of life?

That would be your body with the (temporary) magic aura - not the cave. And I don't even think detect magic works on finding undead...

rgrekejin

2012-07-03, 06:30 PM

That would be your body with the (temporary) magic aura - not the cave. And I don't even think detect magic works on finding undead...

Indeed. From the description for "Detect Magic"

The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.

So even if your body would register as magic (which I am inclined to think it wouldn't, since creatures like outsiders and elementals do not register as magic unless they are summoned monsters) being underground in the cave would effectively block anyone on the outside from seeing the aura.

Forikroder

2012-07-03, 06:35 PM

...wha? A one-in-a-trillion chance is hundreds of billions of times less likely than a one-in-a-million chance.

i guess you missed the FWOOSH as the joke flew right over your head

Obviously, you've never heard of vampires. Pretty sure their flesh isn't all grotesquely rotten.

not sure if you missed this joke too

That would be your body with the (temporary) magic aura - not the cave. And I don't even think detect magic works on finding undead...

does if your a lich

besides something finding you is inevitable (note this is a joke since there is a race of creatures called inevitables who spend all there time finding creatures who try to cheat death and kill them)

besides, what do you even gain? nothing you get to sit in a hole doing literally nothing until you go mad from the boredom im pretty sure Xykon would make a speech about the people who are willing to dot aht are even worse then the guys who died cause at least they tried something

Emperordaniel

2012-07-03, 06:47 PM

i guess you missed the FWOOSH as the joke flew right over your head

not sure if you missed this joke tooIf that was a joke, then it's not a very good one.

does if your a lichNote that I'm focusing on vampires for that reason.

besides, what do you even gain? nothing you get to sit in a hole doing literally nothing until you go mad from the boredom im pretty sure Xykon would make a speech about the people who are willing to dot aht are even worse then the guys who died cause at least they tried somethingWhat do you have to gain? Besides the ability to avoid death virtually forever? Putting aside the fact that undead can't go mad in D&D as far as I know, vampires have the ability to "sleep" or "hibernate" indefinitely in their coffins, only waking up when they want to.

Not to mention that Xykon said that being a brain-in-a-jar is better than going down to the Big Fire Below. And what could be more boring than being a brain-in-a-jar? You sit... ...lie... ...whatever in a small glass container 24/7 and do nothing but think.

rgrekejin

2012-07-03, 06:49 PM

If that was a joke, then it's not a very good one.

I think he is referring to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) with the one-in-a-trillion being more likely than one-in-a-million thing.

As for the second one... your guess is as good as mine.

Forikroder

2012-07-03, 06:59 PM

If that was a joke, then it's not a very good one.

i never said my jokes were funny

Besides the ability to avoid death virtually forever?

oh yes the ability to stare at a wall and count the molecules in it

And what could be more boring than being a brain-in-a-jar?

brains in jars usually have the abilty to communicate
http://irregularwebcomic.net/121.html

Emperordaniel

2012-07-04, 04:59 AM

oh yes the ability to stare at a wall and count the molecules in itOr - as I already pointed out - the ability to hibernate indefinitely, eliminating the "boredom problem".

brains in jars usually have the abilty to communicate
http://irregularwebcomic.net/121.html

And vampires don't? :smallconfused:

B. Dandelion

2012-07-04, 06:23 AM

rgrekejin

2012-07-04, 08:18 AM

If it's not too late, I'd like to bring up comic 668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html), panel 8.

Qarr: ...wait, you PLANNED on the elf attacking Xykon?
Cedrick: More like it was a foreseeable consequence to the deal we were already putting together.

(emphasis mine)

Doesn't that pretty much directly address and refute the possibility that the fiends' entire plan was to use Vaarsuvius to knock Xykon out of his comfort zone? Qarr asks if that was their plan and Cedrick says it became an addition to a plan they were working on already. WHAT plan? Clearly they had something else in store for Vaarsuvius but were able to kill two birds with one stone.

You know, that is a very good point. I can't believe that I missed using it in the past, as I've used the fact that the Fiends knew there was only an 84% chance of V attacking Xykon as a counterargument before. I believe the response I got was something along the lines of "an 84% chance is probably the best chance they could get, so they went with a plan that was high-percentage, but not foolproof". But what they say in the word bubble immediately before that kind of blows that argument up, doesn't it?

Forikroder

2012-07-04, 10:09 AM

If it's not too late, I'd like to bring up comic 668 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html), panel 8.

Qarr: ...wait, you PLANNED on the elf attacking Xykon?
Cedrick: More like it was a foreseeable consequence to the deal we were already putting together.

(emphasis mine)

Doesn't that pretty much directly address and refute the possibility that the fiends' entire plan was to use Vaarsuvius to knock Xykon out of his comfort zone? Qarr asks if that was their plan and Cedrick says it became an addition to a plan they were working on already. WHAT plan? Clearly they had something else in store for Vaarsuvius but were able to kill two birds with one stone.

but the plan also doesnt involve doing something with V since they consider his soul the free soup or salad to there main course (i mean not everyone even eats the free soup or salad) so giving V the splices accomplished something else off panel that were unaware of completely (probably gaining more power from there respective demonic races)

B. Dandelion

2012-07-04, 11:11 AM

but the plan also doesnt involve doing something with V since they consider his soul the free soup or salad to there main course (i mean not everyone even eats the free soup or salad) so giving V the splices accomplished something else off panel that were unaware of completely (probably gaining more power from there respective demonic races)

The final panel of 667 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html) has this exchange:

Cedrick: 3 minutes, 6 seconds for you... 20 minutes, 35 seconds for him and me.
Nero: More than sufficient for our purposes, I imagine.

They have some "purpose" which is directly served by the amount of time for which they possess V's soul.

Though I suppose you could argue that what they call a "purpose" in one comic is what they call a "free soup-or-salad" in the next sequential comic. Seems unlikely to me, though -- more likely the purposeful things are linked than the purposeful and the meaningless.

Forikroder

2012-07-04, 09:41 PM

The final panel of 667 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html) has this exchange:

Cedrick: 3 minutes, 6 seconds for you... 20 minutes, 35 seconds for him and me.
Nero: More than sufficient for our purposes, I imagine.

They have some "purpose" which is directly served by the amount of time for which they possess V's soul.

Though I suppose you could argue that what they call a "purpose" in one comic is what they call a "free soup-or-salad" in the next sequential comic. Seems unlikely to me, though -- more likely the purposeful things are linked than the purposeful and the meaningless.

doesnt mean its an important purpose only that the restaurant they went to had really good soup

B. Dandelion

2012-07-05, 12:54 AM

Forikroder

2012-07-05, 04:33 AM

I technically replied to this already... Like I said, you could argue (and now you have) that what they call a "purpose" at the end of 667 is largely meaningless and the same thing as the "free soup-or-salad" referred to in 668. I don't personally agree. I think it is far more likely that the "purposes" they're talking about in 667 are, in fact, significant.

If it's meaningless it makes the composition of comic 667 rather nonsensical. Would you at least concede that cutaway (on the heels of Vaarsuvius' guiltily nervous "no harm done") is meant to appear as though it refers to something ominous?

no i think its meant more as a joke since at that point he seems to have forgotten he sold his soul to get the job done

your welcome to think the purpose is significant but youll continue to do so with no evidence and going against what the fiends specifically said

Cronos988

2012-07-05, 05:06 AM

no i think its meant more as a joke since at that point he seems to have forgotten he sold his soul to get the job done

your welcome to think the purpose is significant but youll continue to do so with no evidence and going against what the fiends specifically said

That is your opinion but that is not the only possible (or indeed likely) interpretation. The time may be less significant than just keeping the struggle between the factions going, but it does not follow that it is completely insignificant.

It does imply that getting V's soul was not the mainstay of the plan and that the plan will work out without taking control of it, but the "custody" might still come in handy.

B. Dandelion

2012-07-05, 05:20 AM

no i think its meant more as a joke since at that point he seems to have forgotten he sold his soul to get the job done

Why is there this persistent belief among so many that "joke" and "foreshadowing" are mutually exclusive concepts? The joke is that contrary to V's claim, harm was done, and because they're referring to a future event, it's ominous.

your welcome to think the purpose is significant but youll continue to do so with no evidence and going against what the fiends specifically said

Oh thanks ever so much for granting me the right to my own opinion, I was way anxious about getting your approval on the matter of knowing my own mind. [ / snark ] Seriously, please lay off the casual condescension, I haven't done it to you.

You don't have proof for what you're saying either. The difference between us is that you are conflating one seemingly-meaningful statement ("our purposes") with another seemingly-meaningless one ("the free-soup-or-salad"), while I believe the same statement ("our purposes") is correctly aligned with the more-meaningful sounding "deal we were already working on." Since we've already established the fiends did have another plan in mind ("the deal we were already working on"), that said deal was connected to giving V power and is specifically established as unrelated to the objective of knocking Xykon out of his comfort zone, it's no great stretch to assume it's likely connected to the soul collection process, and certainly it's no bigger leap than yours which is a literal contradiction -- your argument requires them to say the same thing has "purposes" in one comic and then refer to it as meaningless in the next.

Forikroder

2012-07-05, 05:24 AM

Why is there this persistent belief among so many that "joke" and "foreshadowing" are mutually exclusive concepts? The joke is that contrary to V's claim, harm was done, and because they're referring to a future event, it's ominous.

Oh thanks ever so much for granting me the right to my own opinion, I was way anxious about getting your approval on the matter of knowing my own mind.

You don't have proof for what you're saying either. The difference between us is that you are conflating one seemingly-meaningful statement ("our purposes") with another seemingly-meaningless one ("the free-soup-or-salad"), while I believe the same statement ("our purposes") is correctly aligned with the more-meaningful sounding "deal we were already working on." Since we've already established the fiends did have another plan in mind ("the deal we were already working on"), that said deal was connected to giving V power and is specifically established as unrelated to the objective of knocking Xykon out of his comfort zone, it's no great stretch to assume it's likely connected to the soul collection process, and certainly it's no bigger leap than yours which is a literal contradiction -- your argument requires them to say the same thing has "purposes" in one comic and then refer to it as meaningless in the next.

purpose doesnt have to be big

when i go to timmies in the morning i go with a purpose doesnt mean i consider the trips important

B. Dandelion

2012-07-05, 05:53 AM

purpose doesnt have to be big

when i go to timmies in the morning i go with a purpose doesnt mean i consider the trips important

Doesn't prove your case. "Purpose" refers to one of two possible things, one of them important and the other not-so-important. I think it more likely that it refers to the important one, and all you're saying here is that it's not absolutely guaranteed to do so -- that certainly doesn't mean it's absolutely guaranteed to refer to the unimportant one, as your argument requires.

Forikroder

2012-07-05, 06:26 AM

Doesn't prove your case. "Purpose" refers to one of two possible things, one of them important and the other not-so-important. I think it more likely that it refers to the important one, and all you're saying here is that it's not absolutely guaranteed to do so -- that certainly doesn't mean it's absolutely guaranteed to refer to the unimportant one, as your argument requires.

actually its your argument that requires it since your basing your entire argument of them meaning purpose as something extremely important

by argument is based of them talking about Vs soul as some free extra

and purpose doenst refer to only 2 possible things it could be completely unimportant, absolutely critical or anything in between jsut them saying purpose doesnt imply how important that purpose is

B. Dandelion

2012-07-05, 07:30 AM

actually its your argument that requires it since your basing your entire argument of them meaning purpose as something extremely important

No, my argument is that the specific "purpose" referred to in 667 is the same thing as "the deal they were already working on" in 668.

by argument is based of them talking about Vs soul as some free extra

No, your argument now is hinging on the specific "purpose" referred to in 667 being the same thing as the free soup-or-salad in 668.

and purpose doenst refer to only 2 possible things it could be completely unimportant, absolutely critical or anything in between jsut them saying purpose doesnt imply how important that purpose is

I never contended the general word purpose can only mean "super important" or "completely unimportant" and not anything in between.

Although I think it a ridiculous contention that "purpose is as likely to refer to something unimportant as something important."

Forikroder

2012-07-05, 07:56 AM

No, your argument now is hinging on the specific "purpose" referred to in 667 being the same thing as the free soup-or-salad in 668.

they SAID Vs soul is just a free soup or salad to them i dont see how that is up for debate...

I never contended the general word purpose can only mean "super important" or "completely unimportant" and not anything in between.

Although I think it a ridiculous contention that "purpose is as likely to refer to something unimportant as something important."

but you specifically said

"Purpose" refers to one of two possible things, one of them important and the other not-so-important.

im confused

B. Dandelion

2012-07-05, 08:27 AM

they SAID Vs soul is just a free soup or salad to them i dont see how that is up for debate...

It's not up for debate that, in comic 668, the fiends said that winding up with Vaarsuvius' soul was little more than the free soup-or-salad.

In comic 668 the fiends also referred to "a deal they had been working on already," which pre-dated their intention to use Vaarsuvius to knock Xykon out of his comfort zone.

What you and I are arguing over is whether, in 667, "good enough for our purposes" referred to A) having Vaarsuvius' soul as a free soup-or-salad or B) the fulfillment of that other plan.

I don't think they care all that much about whether or not they get to torture V because of the deal -- thanks to V's genocide, she is likely to be damned to hell in any case. So they talk about that aspect as though it's not important. But they made the deal for some reason distinct from that, some reason that does sound important. So I think when they talk about "purposes," that's what they're referring to.

but you specifically said

"Purpose" refers to one of two possible things, one of them important and the other not-so-important.

im confused

read it as:

"Purpose", in that scene, refers to one of two possible things, one of them important and the other not-so-important.

Both of us are contending that "purpose" in that specific scene, refers to something specific mentioned in comic 668. We disagree over which specific thing, but there are only two options contending. As it so happens, one of those things is important and one of them is not.

This has nothing to do with how the word "purpose" is defined in the dictionary and whether in a general sense it can mean super-duper important, sorta-important, not-really-important, important-only-on-the-second-Tuesday-of-the-month.... etc.

Forikroder

2012-07-05, 08:32 AM

It's not up for debate that, in comic 668, the fiends said that winding up with Vaarsuvius' soul was little more than the free soup-or-salad.

In comic 668 the fiends also referred to "a deal they had been working on already," which pre-dated their intention to use Vaarsuvius to knock Xykon out of his comfort zone.

What you and I are arguing over is whether, in 667, "good enough for our purposes" referred to A) having Vaarsuvius' soul as a free soup-or-salad or B) the fulfillment of that other plan.

and assuming B is correct if Vs soul is actually important to that plan or jsut something that makes the plan run smoother

lio45

2012-07-05, 11:31 AM

Man, this is actually rivalling the "V never brags about his intellect" argument.

V's soul is CLEARLY a free extra. It's not what their plan is about.

The "purpose" is... what they've been doing this whole thing for. The "main course of wickedness". What they're going to do with V when they put their few minutes of ownership of V's soul to good use.

The "free side dish", getting V's soul permanently after V's death, is NOT interchangeable with the "purpose/main course". If they refer to one, then that's what they mean.

In other words, for those of us reading the comic Rich Burlew is posting on www.giantitp.com/Comics.html, top pick (the one that's not Erfworld), there can be no doubt whatsoever that B. Dandelion is 100% right here.

Forikroder

2012-07-05, 12:02 PM

V's soul is CLEARLY a free extra. It's not what their plan is about.

right which is what ive been arguing about...

The "purpose" is... what they've been doing this whole thing for. The "main course of wickedness". What they're going to do with V when they put their few minutes of ownership of V's soul to good use.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html

they straight say they dont care about Vs soul and the truly important think is the overall struggle between Xykon and the Order of the Stick

The "free side dish", getting V's soul permanently after V's death, is NOT interchangeable with the "purpose/main course". If they refer to one, then that's what they mean.

the free side dish was directly refrencing Vs soul, the main dish of wickedness is... something unkown

im more interested in the things they said after that they want destructive unnesecary conflict somehow them creating conflict works to meeting there goals but a victory by EITHER side is the worst case scenario (so even if the OoTS kill Xykon thats still a terrible thing for the IFCC) this makes me think they dont want to go out and capture a gate in such a straightforward method

Cronos988

2012-07-05, 12:12 PM

M
The "purpose" is... what they've been doing this whole thing for. The "main course of wickedness". What they're going to do with V when they put their few minutes of ownership of V's soul to good use.

The "free side dish", getting V's soul permanently after V's death, is NOT interchangeable with the "purpose/main course". If they refer to one, then that's what they mean.

I thought so too, at first, but what they say is [I paraphrase]: "the soul is little more than the free soup-or-salad, we have a good chance of ending up with it anyway".

So they clearly differentiate between the time they get V's soul as part of the deal and it's eventual resting place. It would, however, surprise me if they did not manage to squeeze a material advantage out of every detail of their deal.

There are some other quotes to be considered that seem to be slightly misinterpreted though. On the same page, Quarr asks:
- "you PLANNED on the elf attacking Xykon",
To which they answer:
- "it was a forseeable consequence to the deal we were already puttung together"
and later refers to psych reports specifically on V.

That seems to imply that the deal they were putting together had always been giving V, specifically, power. I think this statement does not really imply that their original plan did not involve Xykon. the IFCC is merely stating that they did not know the outcome for sure, but expected it, saying "it wasn't a perfect plan".

I would say that pretty strongly implies that the idea was to give V power to create conflict. What remains cryptic is the statement in comic #656:
"If the elf dies here, this whole thing was a huge waste of time".
It might refer to the soul being important later on, but it might also just mean that V had not yet created enough unrest to really make Xykon move. But that later option is somewhat contradicted by the earlier statement of "get out of there already".

So for some reason, V's survival was important to the deal. One plausible reson is the whole soul thing.

Forikroder

2012-07-05, 12:16 PM

I would say that pretty strongly implies that the idea was to give V power to create conflict. What remains cryptic is the statement in comic #656:
"If the elf dies here, this whole thing was a huge waste of time".
It might refer to the soul being important later on, but it might also just mean that V had not yet created enough unrest to really make Xykon move. But that later option is somewhat contradicted by the earlier statement of "get out of there already".

no contradiction if V gets in smacks Xykon around then gets out then Xykon has to worry about him coming back and being more effective

if he kills V then no worry about round 2

B. Dandelion

2012-07-06, 08:43 AM

and assuming B is correct if Vs soul is actually important to that plan or jsut something that makes the plan run smoother

You and I have only discussed relevancy, not vitality. It's a very narrow concession I've been trying to get out of you these past few posts, and you haven't made it. I don't have much desire to jump over into a new round of musical chairs before even one of the old chairs has been taken out of the game.

There are some other quotes to be considered that seem to be slightly misinterpreted though. On the same page, Quarr asks:
- "you PLANNED on the elf attacking Xykon",
To which they answer:
- "it was a forseeable consequence to the deal we were already puttung together"
and later refers to psych reports specifically on V.

That seems to imply that the deal they were putting together had always been giving V, specifically, power.

I'm with you on this, but...

I think this statement does not really imply that their original plan did not involve Xykon. the IFCC is merely stating that they did not know the outcome for sure, but expected it, saying "it wasn't a perfect plan".

...this not so much. Their response comes as a clarification to the question of whether "Vaarsuvius attacking Xykon" was the plan. If it had been, the answer to Qarr's question wouldn't have need a qualified "more like..." and could have been a simple "yes." Or "yes, but it wasn't foolproof." The plan's probability for success isn't linked to what the plan's goals are.

I would say that pretty strongly implies that the idea was to give V power to create conflict.

I interpret Cedrick as saying their plan had been to offer Vaarsuvius power. It's assuredly linked to their desire to cause conflict, but keep in mind the OOTS are already in a conflict over the Gates. They don't need any other motive to zero in on an isolated, troubled member of the Order. But before offering V the deal, their preliminary psych results gave an 84% chance she'd use it to lash out at a powerful target, so they saw an additional opportunity there to provide Team Evil with a wakeup call.

Forikroder

2012-07-06, 09:19 AM

i interpret it as they had a plan that required them to start alot of conflict, and (possibly) needed to do some amazing job of good old fansioned soul selling to impress there superiors and were trying to find the msot optimal candidate when they discovered V

ChristianSt

2012-07-06, 04:28 PM

"If the elf dies here, this whole thing was a huge waste of time".
This is for me the main argument the IFCC can control V while he/she is still alive. If they need him/her alive in a certain spot and control his/her actions then, then all was a really huge waste of time if he/she dies before. (And i think even without the lost phylactery Xykon would have been on the run to the next gate)

Forikroder

2012-07-06, 09:15 PM

This is for me the main argument the IFCC can control V while he/she is still alive. If they need him/her alive in a certain spot and control his/her actions then, then all was a really huge waste of time if he/she dies before. (And i think even without the lost phylactery Xykon would have been on the run to the next gate)

i dont think so, Xykon doesnt get motivated very easily, but once he gets motivated you cant stop him

Xykon was still jsut amused with Vs attack up until Ochul nabbed his Phylactery and ran off with it hence his time to crack jokes and lecture V some more he still didnt even up to that point consider Vs attack a threat so if he just killed V (hell even if V escapes i think) then Xykon jsut would jsut consider it some good entertainment and go back to whatever else he does for entertainment

maybe if V had escaped he might get worried enough to decide to jsut move out right then and there but i really think it was them managing to lose his Phylactey that pushed him out of Azure city