BioShock

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I just got a copy of BioShock today and ... well ... that is one delightfully screwed up game. Most FPS games have the following plot: "Aliens/brown people/zombies/mercenaries with cool accents and cartoonish proportions are attacking! Kill them with a gun!". Not BioShock. My favourite part is the Rapture commercials.

[Maxios]

I was actually planning on playing this on OnLive as soon as I can move out of this hotel room. How is it?

[Giggling Ghast]

Oh, it gets better. :smallbiggrin:

My favourite commercial is the PSA about public executions in Rapture. "A little capital punishment IS a small price to pay to protect our freedoms."

Would you kindly describe anything else you like about the game?

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Oh, it gets better. :smallbiggrin:

My favourite commercial is the PSA about public executions in Rapture. "A little capital punishment IS a small price to pay to protect our freedoms."

Would you kindly describe anything else you like about the game?

I was actually planning on playing this on OnLive as soon as I can move out of this hotel room. How is it?

Well, it can hardly be called an FPS. Its a first-person interactive story that involves shooting things. The graphics and engine are beginning to age (the game came out in 2007), but there is still eye-candy to be had. The dark humour is just great.

[Forbiddenwar]

I found the first four hours to be great fun. Unfortunately, my playthrough was about 10 hours. The game gets broken terribly quickly. And for me, a game without challenge is not worth playing.

[Psyren]

Well, it can hardly be called an FPS. Its a first-person interactive story that involves shooting things.

Why? Great story aside, the combat is fast, frenzied and fluid, everything FPS combat should be. What makes Bioshock great is that the gameplay is every bit as engaging as the storyline.

Your second sentence is a much better description for Portal.

[psilontech]

If you love Bioshock, you'll pop an erection over System Shock 2.

While I generally pretty much enjoyed Bioshock, SS2 is hands down one of my favorite games of all time.

It's screwed up, I know, but... SHODAN <3

[MCerberus]

BioShock is just wonderfully atmospheric. Unfortunately, the second one doesn't really live up to what the first did. Sure there where philosophical ramblings but not

The linear nature of the game and lack of player agency being an actual plot-point. Shame about the ending though, could have used a retouch.

That part about murdering your puppy in an audiolog freaked me the hell out too.

[Cespenar]

Oh, it gets better. :smallbiggrin:

My favourite commercial is the PSA about public executions in Rapture. "A little capital punishment IS a small price to pay to protect our freedoms."

Would you kindly describe anything else you like about the game?

I see what you did there.

[Opperhapsen]

Oh, it gets better. :smallbiggrin:

My favourite commercial is the PSA about public executions in Rapture. "A little capital punishment IS a small price to pay to protect our freedoms."

Would you kindly describe anything else you like about the game?
Those little touches like the whole "Misha" (I think that was the little girl's name) story, or Sander Cohen's plaster of a family. (Those slit wrists :smallfrown:)
Or just finding a corpse sitting in a recliner with booze next to it, and a shootgun at it's feet.

Sometimes I thought they got a little heavy handed with it though, like the crucified smuggler surrounded by bibles.

If you love Bioshock, you'll pop an erection over System Shock 2.

While I generally pretty much enjoyed Bioshock, SS2 is hands down one of my favorite games of all time.

It's screwed up, I know, but... SHODAN <3
Too bad the gameplay in SS2 is beyond help. :smallfrown:

[Scowling Dragon]

Oh Yeah. Bioshock is great.


Bioshock infinite info just has me going....Whaaah?

Its like they are trying to recreate Bioshock only IN THE AIR with a quarter of the understanding.

The main theme is just really weak (Racism is bad!) and there are just things that don't make sense (Until I hear it it more detail)

So the USA creates a air fort. OK. Then it turns out its a military airfort. And then Its Disavowed by the USA....Waaaah? Why? Did the USA not know that they created a Military air fort? Are they afraid that other people will get angry at them for using it? Did they not expect that?

So then it begins to embody the ideals of the USA....even though its disavowed by it....Mkay....

Now its having struggles with foreigners and elitism....On a floating airship....

Did airships become common? Does this take place in an alternate reality where access to flying stuff is available in 1915? Then whats so special about the airship? Does it land all the time (From what Ive heard the airship is hard to detect so thats unlikely)? Then why does it allow foreigners on?

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Oh Yeah. Bioshock is great.


Bioshock infinite info just has me going....Whaaah?

Its like they are trying to recreate Bioshock only IN THE AIR with a quarter of the understanding.

The main theme is just really weak (Racism is bad!) and there are just things that don't make sense (Until I hear it it more detail)

So the USA creates a air fort. OK. Then it turns out its a military airfort. And then Its Disavowed by the USA....Waaaah? Why? Did the USA not know that they created a Military air fort? Are they afraid that other people will get angry at them for using it? Did they not expect that?

So then it begins to embody the ideals of the USA....even though its disavowed by it....Mkay....

Now its having struggles with foreigners and elitism....On a floating airship....

Did airships become common? Does this take place in an alternate reality where access to flying stuff is available in 1915? Then whats so special about the airship? Does it land all the time (From what Ive heard the airship is hard to detect so thats unlikely)? Then why does it allow foreigners on?

Infinite is intended to be a remake/reboot, right?

[Thiyr]

Oh Yeah. Bioshock is great.


Bioshock infinite info just has me going....Whaaah?

Its like they are trying to recreate Bioshock only IN THE AIR with a quarter of the understanding.

The main theme is just really weak (Racism is bad!) and there are just things that don't make sense (Until I hear it it more detail)

So the USA creates a air fort. OK. Then it turns out its a military airfort. And then Its Disavowed by the USA....Waaaah? Why? Did the USA not know that they created a Military air fort? Are they afraid that other people will get angry at them for using it? Did they not expect that?

So then it begins to embody the ideals of the USA....even though its disavowed by it....Mkay....

Now its having struggles with foreigners and elitism....On a floating airship....

Did airships become common? Does this take place in an alternate reality where access to flying stuff is available in 1915? Then whats so special about the airship? Does it land all the time (From what Ive heard the airship is hard to detect so thats unlikely)? Then why does it allow foreigners on?

Two things:
a) it's not intended to be racism is bad, so much as it is commentary on extreme nationalism. Airship is about as fantastical as a mostly self-sustained deep-sea colony, and extreme nationalism is about as good as extreme objectivism imo. It's as much Racism is Bad as saying the original was Greed is Bad.

b) This does, in fact, take place in an alternate universe. The special part is likely that formerly they were used for transport, while this was used for permanent habitation. As far as landing, I expect they'll either cover that, or handwave it, and either way it'll be good enough.

[Opperhapsen]

Infinite is intended to be a remake/reboot, right?

They're not even connected.

The atmosphere also appears to be much less based on horror, so it'll be a completely different feel.

The philosophy they'll be contending with is American exceptionalism as well as radical liberalism. (bomb throwing anarchists)
Personally I couldn't care less about the philosophies involved
Sure Ryan was an amazing character, and watching his ideals and dreams crumble as he slowly abandoned them was amazing, but I hope they don't it into a formula.

Anyway, the entire thing is completely different, the protagonist is now an actual character, and while there'll still be creepy stuff hiding around the corners that does not seem to be the main point.

[Thiyr]

edit: yay accidental double post D:

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Bioshock Infinite doesn't do anything for me. It's the art-style that really made me love Bioshock, as well as the dark dystopia, not the bright-and-flying-in-the-air and just no.

No appeal, whatsoever.

[t209]

Two things:
a) it's not intended to be racism is bad, so much as it is commentary on extreme nationalism. Airship is about as fantastical as a mostly self-sustained deep-sea colony, and extreme nationalism is about as good as extreme objectivism imo. It's as much Racism is Bad as saying the original was Greed is Bad.

b) This does, in fact, take place in an alternate universe. The special part is likely that formerly they were used for transport, while this was used for permanent habitation. As far as landing, I expect they'll either cover that, or handwave it, and either way it'll be good enough.
More like Extreme take on political alignment. There's a resistance called Vox Populi and they are not your star wars Rebels. They also kidnap an innocent postman and force confess him, execute "Loyalist of fascist regime" and rob citizens of their goods.

[GolemsVoice]

I actually liked Bioshock 2 about as much as I liked the first. It's really not a bad game. Even it's philosophical parts aren't that bad.

[Eakin]

I just got a copy of BioShock today and ... well ... that is one delightfully screwed up game. Most FPS games have the following plot: "Aliens/brown people/zombies/mercenaries with cool accents and cartoonish proportions are attacking! Kill them with a gun!". Not BioShock. My favourite part is the Rapture commercials.

I have to ask, have you managed to avoid having the twist spoiled for all this time? I don't want to say what it is obviously but if you'd know what it is if you've heard it.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I have to ask, have you managed to avoid having the twist spoiled for all this time? I don't want to say what it is obviously but if you'd know what it is if you've heard it.

There's a twist? Cool.

[Opperhapsen]

I actually liked Bioshock 2 about as much as I liked the first. It's really not a bad game. Even it's philosophical parts aren't that bad.
The gameplay is vastly improved, but the sequel was unnecessary, the villain is dumb, the story makes little sense, and not only are the small creepy details basically gone, but all sense of dread is gone because you are an effectively immortal big daddy.

It's not bad, and if it didn't have to compete with bioshock it'd be a quite good game.

[smuchmuch]

Too bad the gameplay in SS2 is beyond help. :smallfrown:

(I do believe there were some mods for SS2.
besides gamepplay wasn't that bad...
Okay so it could become pretty painfull if you were trying a pure psychic run but still, fun.)


The gameplay is vastly improved, but the sequel was unnecessary, the villain is dumb, the story makes little sense, and not only are the small creepy details basically gone, but all sense of dread is gone because you are an effectively immortal big daddy.

Frankly for a big daddy, I found you were pretty easily downded down in Bioshock 2.
As for Lamb, she's a fanatic who hides her circular easoning behind psychobabble as far as vilalins go I dodn't see how that's particulary bad. what make her so dumb to you ?

[Scowling Dragon]

OK so its "Extreme nationalism is bad!". That isn't much better. Because no DUH it is.

The first essentially took objectivism and flipped it on its head, showing how horribly wrong it could go even under perfect circumstances.

This is just preaching to the choir in terms of obvious. Just like Bioshock 2.

[GolemsVoice]

Yep, Lamb wasn't bad. Without going into politics too much, her motives WERE realistic, to some extend.

[Thiyr]

OK so its "Extreme nationalism is bad!". That isn't much better. Because no DUH it is.

The first essentially took objectivism and flipped it on its head, showing how horribly wrong it could go even under perfect circumstances.

This is just preaching to the choir in terms of obvious. Just like Bioshock 2.

Except it really isn't a duh thing. Nationalism really isn't terribly obvious as a problem except through hindsight, and it -still- causes issues now, even on small scales, something objectivism can't really claim considering how few people that could do much with it took it seriously.

And it's not like the first game was terribly subtle about how bad objectivism was. I mean, hell, before you even get into Rapture, Ryan mentions that scientists wouldn't be hindered by "petty morality". He outright says that trying to have a system of right and wrong would be a non-issue for scientists. That's about as obvious as you can get. At the very least no less obvious than the idea that getting swept up in jingoism is bad (which from the inside is terribly hard to see).

[Scowling Dragon]

Except it really isn't a duh thing. Nationalism really isn't terribly obvious as a problem except through hindsight, and it -still- causes issues now, even on small scales, something objectivism can't really claim considering how few people that could do much with it took it seriously.

Again. Thats only in extremes. Unlike the very idea of Objectivism thats against morality, and having a conscience (This may be a bit too political)


And it's not like the first game was terribly subtle about how bad objectivism was. I mean, hell, before you even get into Rapture, Ryan mentions that scientists wouldn't be hindered by "petty morality". He outright says that trying to have a system of right and wrong would be a non-issue for scientists. That's about as obvious as you can get.
Yeah. I guess your right.

Bioshock infinite still stands wrong with me. This still feels like a repeat.

[Giggling Ghast]

I think Bioshock Infinite looks quite visually stunning and I've been impressed with what I've seen so far.


The main theme is just really weak (Racism is bad!) and there are just things that don't make sense (Until I hear it it more detail)

Having read a bit about Bioshock Infinite, I wouldn't say it's so much that its message is "racism is bad!" It's more "extremism is bad!" Because while the folks who want to keep "Columbia for the Americans" are bad, the people who fought against them are just as nasty.


And it's not like the first game was terribly subtle about how bad objectivism was. I mean, hell, before you even get into Rapture, Ryan mentions that scientists wouldn't be hindered by "petty morality". He outright says that trying to have a system of right and wrong would be a non-issue for scientists. That's about as obvious as you can get. At the very least no less obvious than the idea that getting swept up in jingoism is bad (which from the inside is terribly hard to see).

I would say that the problems in Rapture only really started because Andrew Ryan turned his back on the principles of objectivism. He just wanted to be the king of his castle and couldn't stand that someone else (Frank Fontaine) was better at his game than he was.

[MCerberus]

Again. Thats only in extremes. Unlike the very idea of Objectivism thats against morality, and having a conscience (This may be a bit too political)


Yeah. I guess your right.

Bioshock infinite still stands wrong with me. This still feels like a repeat.

I'm going to reserve judgement on Infinite's use of theme until I play the thing. It has potential to be bad, but also very good.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I'm going to get BioShock 2 and Infinite, but my hopes aren't up.

[The Succubus]

Bioshock Infinite doesn't do anything for me. It's the art-style that really made me love Bioshock, as well as the dark dystopia, not the bright-and-flying-in-the-air and just no.

No appeal, whatsoever.

Seconding the skull. Bioshock 2 was a train wreck of a game as far as I was concerned, in terms of plot and the awful Sister saving mechanics. The chief antagonist in B2 really lacked any kind of emotional drive - I didn't hate her or like her - and her characterisation was far, far weaker than that of Andrew Ryan.

[Scowling Dragon]

I would say that the problems in Rapture only really started because Andrew Ryan turned his back on the principles of objectivism. He just wanted to be the king of his castle and couldn't stand that someone else (Frank Fontaine) was better at his game than he was.

Actually the opposite. He didn't think to step in and stop the drugs spreading around before it was too late.

[GolemsVoice]

While Bioshock 2 is maybe not AS good as Bioshock 1, it's not bad at all. It's still very good in my opinion. And it's certainly not a trainwreck.

[Callos_DeTerran]

While Bioshock 2 is maybe not AS good as Bioshock 1, it's not bad at all. It's still very good in my opinion. And it's certainly not a trainwreck.

Agreed on this, Lamb was a bit of a weaker villain, but I actually did hate her. Partially because she makes you shoot yourself in the head (I'm extremely spiteful)

but primarily because...

...she took Eleanor and created the Big Sisters. Lamb may have been lacking, but I did feel a connection to the Little Sisters and Eleanor, one that was definitely fatherly in nature. The Little Sisters had been freed at the end of Bioshock and I [i]hated/i] Lamb for creating more Little Sisters and Big Daddies. She had to go down. And shaping Eleanor herself was oddly touching...er...if you didn't turn her into a complete monster anyway.

[Giggling Ghast]

Actually the opposite. He didn't think to step in and stop the drugs spreading around before it was too late.

How is that the opposite? By stepping in at all, he still turned his back on what he originally set out to do. The motto of Rapture might as well have been "Where the sweat of your brow belongs to you alone, provided your name is Andrew Ryan." Which is about as far from an Objectivist utopia as you can get.

I'm just saying, the game is not as big an indictment of Objectivism as you think. It's a pretty strong condemnation of extremism, however.

Also, using sea slugs to give yourself super powers is never a good idea. Goddamn sploicers.

[Scowling Dragon]

Im saing objectivism in it of itself is a bad destructive idea. And the game shows why.

Again, this may be too political.

[Arbane]

There's a twist? Cool.

If you don't already know, GET OFF THE INTERNET NOW and finish the game before some nitwit ruins the plot for you.

I am not kidding.


While Bioshock 2 is maybe not AS good as Bioshock 1, it's not bad at all. It's still very good in my opinion. And it's certainly not a trainwreck.

Yes, System Shock 2 is an excellent older game, even if the graphics don't hold up well. Creepy as all get out.

[Eakin]

I'm going to get BioShock 2 and Infinite, but my hopes aren't up.


Seconding the skull. Bioshock 2 was a train wreck of a game as far as I was concerned, in terms of plot and the awful Sister saving mechanics. The chief antagonist in B2 really lacked any kind of emotional drive - I didn't hate her or like her - and her characterisation was far, far weaker than that of Andrew Ryan.

Wasn't 2 made by a totally different team/studio than the folks who worked on the first one? I'll absolutely be interested in Infinite, if only because I respect a team that's willing to completely cut ties with the recognizable elements of their own franchise to try to make a better followup.

Seriously, there's nothing worse than when a developer starts a fetishistic obsession with one or two aesthetic details a franchise became noteworthy for while failing to recapture what made the original game actually good.

[GolemsVoice]

Yes, System Shock 2 is an excellent older game, even if the graphics don't hold up well. Creepy as all get out.

Eh? I think you've quoted the wrong poster. But I nevertheless agree with you, SS 2 is scary as HELL.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Is System Shock 2 available for Windows? If not, is there a good emulator?

[Triscuitable]

I found the first four hours to be great fun. Unfortunately, my playthrough was about 10 hours. The game gets broken terribly quickly. And for me, a game without challenge is not worth playing.

Brass Balls, dude. It's tough, but I did it.


Oh Yeah. Bioshock is great.


Bioshock infinite info just has me going....Whaaah?

Its like they are trying to recreate Bioshock only IN THE AIR with a quarter of the understanding.

How much have you seen of Infinity? It's not at all like that.


The main theme is just really weak (Racism is bad!) and there are just things that don't make sense (Until I hear it it more detail)

Different universe, different rules. The main theme isn't racism, it's political extremism. Racism just happens to be a part of that. In addition to that, there's the sideplot of Elizabeth and Songbird, which is supposed to simulate an abusive relationship.


So the USA creates a air fort. OK. Then it turns out its a military airfort. And then Its Disavowed by the USA....Waaaah? Why? Did the USA not know that they created a Military air fort? Are they afraid that other people will get angry at them for using it? Did they not expect that?

They didn't realize that the city was forcing an extreme agenda of Liberty. It's hardly liberal when you start dropping bombs on China.


So then it begins to embody the ideals of the USA....even though its disavowed by it....Mkay....

Like I said, never embodied the US' ideals. We hardly know anything about Columbia, so stop judging it. It won't be out for another year.


Now its having struggles with foreigners and elitism....On a floating airship....

Did airships become common? Does this take place in an alternate reality where access to flying stuff is available in 1915? Then whats so special about the airship? Does it land all the time (From what Ive heard the airship is hard to detect so thats unlikely)? Then why does it allow foreigners on?

This is indeed an alternate reality. It's in a universe where it's literally breaking down, and as a result, "tears" in the fabric of reality are appearing. Everyone can see them, but only your companion, Elizabeth can use them. We know of two alternate realities so far:


A world where Return of the Jedi was named with the working title, Revenge of the Jedi.
The BioShock (and by extension, BioShock 2) universe.



Is System Shock 2 available for Windows? If not, is there a good emulator?

System Shock is available in freeware form as a prepackaged DOS emulation. Just download it, and run the .exe. It's got a script to set you up with what you need to enjoy it.

System Shock 2 however, is still sold on online retailers. My copy ran me about $40 (used), so be warned that it's not cheap.

[Opperhapsen]

Yep, Lamb wasn't bad. Without going into politics too much, her motives WERE realistic, to some extend.

No they weren't.
Her end goal would only result in her having achieved it, there would be no further use for it, not that it matters because she has no clear motivation for doing it in the first place. (Except wanting to do it)

She doesn't have Ryan's lofty philosophical ideals that broke upon contact with the realities of the world he lives in, she enters Rapture with the exact same personality she has upon leaving.
There was never a point where she meant well, she was never not a cruel bitch.
I'll admit that there is something to be said for the "Cold and calculating" type of villain, but it can't be your only character trait. Especially when you are really bad it. :smallannoyed:



Frankly for a big daddy, I found you were pretty easily downded down in Bioshock 2.
As for Lamb, she's a fanatic who hides her circular easoning behind psychobabble as far as vilalins go I dodn't see how that's particulary bad. what make her so dumb to you ?

You were using the wrong gene tonics.
Drill vampire + Drill Specialist means you're never short on EVE, and once you get drill dash you can even punch Big daddies to death. (Especially given that all your tonics should just go towards making you a better melee fighter)

[Cespenar]

You were using the wrong gene tonics.
I hit things until they died, and then I went on to hit other things.
There was never a threat that I couldn't dispatch by just hitting it until it fell over.
If things started to get really tricky I'd use one or two plasmids to make effective instakills on anything I wanted, meanwhile as soon as I got drill vampire the game could've just gone "You win" because I never had to use first aid kits again outside of big daddy fights. :smallannoyed:

Yeah, things got a little easier in Bioshock 2, but in Hard, you never get into "You win" mode, even with drill trickery.

[Opperhapsen]

Yeah, things got a little easier in Bioshock 2, but in Hard, you never get into "You win" mode, even with drill trickery.I edited my post to reflect which plasmids were used.
But you do.
You totally, totally do.

The game may as well declare your victor about halfway through, because there is literally nothing in the game that challenges you. You might lose some first aid kits to the big sisters, but you can punch them to death.

There's a reason the game starts trying to ramp up the difficulty by throwing multiple daddies at you by the end.

[Cespenar]

I don't know, I found the game kinda like a universal "Medium" on Hard, as opposed to Bioshock 1's "Hard" on Hard. But not "Too Easy As to Be Devoid of Fun".

Is any of this even making sense? :smallbiggrin:

[Opperhapsen]

Oh it does make sense, and if you ignore the Drill it's certainly true.

[GolemsVoice]

No they weren't.
Her end goal would only result in her having achieved it, there would be no further use for it, not that it matters because she has no clear motivation for doing it in the first place. (Except wanting to do it)

She doesn't have Ryan's lofty philosophical ideals that broke upon contact with the realities of the world he lives in, she enters Rapture with the exact same personality she has upon leaving.
There was never a point where she meant well, she was never not a cruel bitch.
I'll admit that there is something to be said for the "Cold and calculating" type of villain, but it can't be your only character trait. Especially when you are really bad it.

She's a hardcore communist, only without the politics. And hardcore communism can mean the DEATH of the ego. Some actually, genuinely believed that, in a perfect society, there won't BE an individual anymore, only individual members of the same society that is united in will and purpose. How is that not a goal? And how is it bad that "her end goal would result only in her having achieved it"? Isn't that kind of the thing with goals, that they are achieved?

What you're saying is that you're sad they didn't tell Bioshock 1 again, e.g. a person whose lofty ideals crumble and you watch it. But why should it be that way again? Why should Sophia Lamb be Ryan, just with another set of chromosomes?
She's different. Different motivation, different personality all that. This is not the story of the fall of her ideology, that was BS 1. This is the story of a woman seeing the vast potential of Adam and using it to turn the desperate masses dissapointed by Ryan's failure into an "ideal society". And the poor sods believe her.

[t209]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT-43#Forces
Do you think UNA are like Raptures (as in Planet loads) since they got "problem" with workers and their ideals?

[Knight13]

Personally, I liked Bioshock 2. I'll admit that the story was weaker (though I did rather like Eleanor and Sinclair), but I think that the combat was significantly improved. Being able to use weapons and plasmids at the same time is convenient and I like having a melee attack for every weapon.

I also liked the Little Sisters more. After the first couple in Bioshock 1, I just started going "yay, another 80 ADAM" when I saw one and had no reaction to them beyond that. In 2, I enjoyed carrying them around, listening to their comments and defending them while they did their thing. At some of the gathering sites, if you fortify the area heavily enough with trap rivets, trap bolts, proximity mines, hacked security and mini turrests, you don't even have to do anything. You can just stand there and watch as the splicers get massacred by your defenses and it's oh-so-satisfying.

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

I don't think the little sisters were particularly well executed in BioSchock. I never hesitate to rip out the sea slugs and gain ADAM, having no emotional impulse to spare them.

[Opperhapsen]

She's a hardcore communist, only without the politics. And hardcore communism can mean the DEATH of the ego. Some actually, genuinely believed that, in a perfect society, there won't BE an individual anymore, only individual members of the same society that is united in will and purpose. How is that not a goal? And how is it bad that "her end goal would result only in her having achieved it"? Isn't that kind of the thing with goals, that they are achieved?

What you're saying is that you're sad they didn't tell Bioshock 1 again, e.g. a person whose lofty ideals crumble and you watch it. But why should it be that way again? Why should Sophia Lamb be Ryan, just with another set of chromosomes?
She's different. Different motivation, different personality all that. This is not the story of the fall of her ideology, that was BS 1. This is the story of a woman seeing the vast potential of Adam and using it to turn the desperate masses dissapointed by Ryan's failure into an "ideal society". And the poor sods believe her.
She's collectivist, not communist.
And no, the villain always gains something else through achieving his goal. If he's trying to take over the world; he gets to be ruler of it. If his goal is to destroy all life; he's either nuts (Removing the need for a definite reward) or "Wants to end all suffering" (In which case he's still a nutbar, but at least he achieves something), if it is to kill X person; then there is something in it for him.
Lamb? Lamb gains jack squat, her philosophy won't be proven right, she won't gain power, prestige or currency, and the people who follow her gain even less.

And I don't want Ryan, I want a villain that makes sense.
Lamb has no good motivation, she has no point at which she abandoned morals for her goal, we're never told why she embraces her philosophy, she doesn't have an arc, she just does the things she does out of cackling cartoonish villainy.
Besides, it's not like she wasn't meant to be an allegory of Ryan, they explicitly said so leading up to the game's release and then keep trying to nudge us towards that conclusion in the game itself.

[Scowling Dragon]

How much have you seen of Infinity? It's not at all like that.

I have seen trailers, pictures and development Ideas.


Different universe, different rules. The main theme isn't racism, it's political extremism.

Alright then. Thats also an obvious conflict. "Should we be accepting or should we be extremly racist?"


They didn't realize that the city was forcing an extreme agenda of Liberty. It's hardly liberal when you start dropping bombs on China.

So they send out a powerful airship with no means of control. The USA is dumb here.


Like I said, never embodied the US' ideals. We hardly know anything about Columbia, so stop judging it. It won't be out for another year.
Except the developers saying that the original side embraces the founding fathers and that there are American flags all over the place and one of the bosses is robot george washington.

[Volthawk]

I don't think the little sisters were particularly well executed in BioSchock. I never hesitate to rip out the sea slugs and gain ADAM, having no emotional impulse to spare them.

Little thing: It actually works out better to save them. The gifts (which as well as the other stuff includes ADAM) outweigh the little bit of extra ADAM you get from harvesting. All in all, you trade out 40 ADAM per 3 Little Sisters, but get a few free gene tonics and plasmids, as well as quite a few extra items

[Opperhapsen]

Little thing: It actually works out better to save them. The gifts (which as well as the other stuff includes ADAM) outweigh the little bit of extra ADAM you get from harvesting. All in all, you trade out 40 ADAM per 3 Little Sisters, but get a few free gene tonics and plasmids, as well as quite a few extra items
You also end up with more ADAM, because of the gifts.

[Volthawk]

You also end up with more ADAM, because of the gifts.

I thought that too, but when I looked it up I got that value which includes the ADAM from gifts.

[Cespenar]

Also, the ending should be better.

[Gligarman2]

Aw, man. That really sucks. I was looking forward to Bioshock Infinite, but I guess it will suck. May as well not buy it, really.:smallsigh:

[MCerberus]

I have seen trailers, pictures and development Ideas.



Alright then. Thats also an obvious conflict. "Should we be accepting or should we be extremly racist?"



So they send out a powerful airship with no means of control. The USA is dumb here.


Except the developers saying that the original side embraces the founding fathers and that there are American flags all over the place and one of the bosses is robot george washington.

I'd just like to point out that the extremism point is going to, unless all sense has fled from the studio's collective heads is that it's going to start with some easily-digestible idea that makes sense, warp it by having it grow into a monster, then plop you down in the aftermath.

It's not about extreme racism or fanatical nationalism, but rather how things can be warped into this with eloquent speaking (as Fontaine, Lamb, and Ryan did). You'll see the slow descent in its various stages in the audiologs, but you're already in a setting that may be too far gone already for redemption.

[Thiyr]

Alright then. Thats also an obvious conflict. "Should we be accepting or should we be extremly racist?"


Sounds almost as obvious as "Should we have some kind of common law, or should we let people do whatever they want without consequence?".

[Destro_Yersul]

I'd just like to point out that the extremism point is going to, unless all sense has fled from the studio's collective heads is that it's going to start with some easily-digestible idea that makes sense, warp it by having it grow into a monster, then plop you down in the aftermath.

It's not about extreme racism or fanatical nationalism, but rather how things can be warped into this with eloquent speaking (as Fontaine, Lamb, and Ryan did). You'll see the slow descent in its various stages in the audiologs, but you're already in a setting that may be too far gone already for redemption.

Not exactly. I think that what's happening in Infinite is that, rather than come in for the aftermath, you are unfortunate enough to land in the middle of the handbasket right after it starts heading for hell. You may see the slow descent in audiologs, but Columbia won't be as dead as Rapture was.

[Scowling Dragon]

Sounds almost as obvious as "Should we have some kind of common law, or should we let people do whatever they want without consequence?".

Yup. But the way it did it worked out much better.

[MCerberus]

Yup. But the way it did it worked out much better.

You can't preemptively pass judgement on a story that isn't out yet.

[Eakin]

Aw, man. That really sucks. I was looking forward to Bioshock Infinite, but I guess it will suck. May as well not buy it, really.:smallsigh:

Maybe we should wait until it actually comes out and reviews start dropping before we decide one way or another? What I've heard leads me to put the game in my "this could be neat" category, why would you pass final judgement on a game based on a trailer and speculation about story details?

[sonofzeal]

If you love Bioshock, you'll pop an erection over System Shock 2.

While I generally pretty much enjoyed Bioshock, SS2 is hands down one of my favorite games of all time.

It's screwed up, I know, but... SHODAN <3
Yes, System Shock 2 is an excellent older game, even if the graphics don't hold up well. Creepy as all get out.
Everyone always talks about SS2, but SS1 is still one of my favorite games of all time. Yeah its even older, from before the days when FPS controls were fairly standardized, but man. Still possibly the most intense FPS gaming I've ever had. The scale is smaller than SS2, but the brutalizing difficulty puts you right on edge.

If you've ever played Minecraft and known that shiver of pure terror when you hear that "SSSSSSSS"? SS1 delivers that in spades, far better than SS2 did, and does it on top of just as much of the slow creeping atmospheric horror. And there's some really subtle little chills that you only notice on repeat playthrough. Excellent stuff.

[Arbane]

Maybe we should wait until it actually comes out and reviews start dropping before we decide one way or another? What I've heard leads me to put the game in my "this could be neat" category, why would you pass final judgement on a game based on a trailer and speculation about story details?

You must be new to this whole "internet" thing. If we didn't decisively opinionate on everything with only the barest of facts, all that would be left on these forums would be D&D rules questions and cat macros. :smallbiggrin:

[Scowling Dragon]

True true. I shouldn't pass judgment before I see what happens. But I still got a bad vibe about this.

Maybe it was because bioshock was the original thats why I have more ease about its shortcomings.

Also the title no longer makes any sense. The point of the series is not the Biological shock.

[Giggling Ghast]

Also the title no longer makes any sense. The point of the series is not the Biological shock.

Next you'll complain about how they keep releasing new "Final Fantasy" games.

[Scowling Dragon]

Next you'll complain about how they keep releasing new "Final Fantasy" games.

Its not the problem that the name is "Final" its that the idea of a final fantasy has nothing to do with the game. Not even thematically.

[MCerberus]

True true. I shouldn't pass judgment before I see what happens. But I still got a bad vibe about this.

Maybe it was because bioshock was the original thats why I have more ease about its shortcomings.

Also the title no longer makes any sense. The point of the series is not the Biological shock.

The only thing that could make it not a Bioshock game in spirit is the fact that it's not underwater. It's a dark narrative set in a period-piece matter amongst the decay of a fantastical society. The inhabitants have lost the battle to preserve the better-nature in a place that espouses an extreme view of something largely considered to have merit in western society, and, as a result, have lost their humanity.

Oh and it will be perverse, we just don't know how. I have faith in the team because the first BS's setting was just so twisted. I can't wait to see what kind of stuff like the only government subsidy being to help you kill your fellow man, or seeing watching (listening) as peoples' identities fade out in a culture of recreational body modification.

[Opperhapsen]

Next you'll complain about how they keep releasing new "Final Fantasy" games.
I reserve the right to call bull**** on Final Fantasy's naming conventions, you can't stop me.