Antimagic Field

[Bard for Kicks]

How does one exactly cast in one? I've read previous threads explaining how one would cast inside an antimagic field that they created, but not one that they get shoved into. Lets say...a 20th lvl wizard-of-sorts (with every book allowed) must pass through a dungeon cloaked in a huge antimagic field, how would he be able to use magic?

[Flickerdart]

How does one exactly cast in one? I've read previous threads explaining how one would cast inside an antimagic field that they created, but not one that they get shoved into. Lets say...a 20th lvl wizard-of-sorts (with every book allowed) must pass through a dungeon cloaked in a huge antimagic field, how would he be able to use magic?
Invoke Magic or Initiate of Mystra both let you cast while standing inside of an AMF. There are additionally many ways (like Shrink Item shenanigans or Orbs) to cast magic into one.

[Kansaschaser]

There's a 9th level spell called Invoke Magic. It costs a 5,000 gold piece gem, but it allows you to cast inside an antimagic field.

[Aegis013]

If you can block the line of effect, you can cast within the radius of the anti-magic field. The 9th level spell Invoke Magic (Lords of Madness, IIRC) is also an option.

The most typical method is the Initiate of Mystra feat, (Player's Guide to Faerun) though it requires Cleric level 3rd as a prerequisite. So not available to a level 20 Wizard.

[Bard for Kicks]

The most typical method is the Initiate of Mystra feat, (Player's Guide to Faerun) though it requires Cleric level 3rd as a prerequisite. So not available to a level 20 Wizard.

I was already aware of Initiate of Mystra but I don't think that will be available because the DC for casting is:
DC11+the caster level of the Antimagic Field

Unfortunately, due to my DM's main villain being an undead Tainted Scholar (with all the cheese), there is no way I can ever make the DC...

Invoke Spell only allows 4th level or below spells to be cast and it is only a one-time use. I'm going to get fried by his Tainted Scholar before I can even get back my 9th level spells.

Am I screwed?.......

[Psyren]

How did you, a high-level wizard, let yourself get "shoved" into an AMF in the first place?

(Also, what's stopping you from walking out on your turn, then teleporting away? AMF is only a 10' radius.)

[Feralventas]

Extraordinary Spell Aim. (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-adventurer--54/extraordinary-spell-aim--1057/)

Success on the spellcraft check means you're not affected by your own AMF.

[tyckspoon]

Strictly by RAW, if the spell you want to cast could be cast from the outside into an AMF effectively, you can just as well cast it while standing *in* that AMF and get the same effect. AMF does nothing to nullify or make spells fizzle, the way Counterspells, Dispels, or just losing Concentration does- all it does is cause the magic to not do anything while in the AMF area. If your spell has a proof-from-AMF clause on it already, such as Instantaneous Conjurations and Wall of Force, then the AMF does nothing to prevent you from casting them with their normal effect.

(Note this is the absolute strict RAW interpretation; it differs dramatically from how many people think AMF *should* operate, and is often altered as an unknown/unmentioned houserule, which will probably become an explicit houserule if you bring this up with your DM.)

[Tyndmyr]

How did you, a high-level wizard, let yourself get "shoved" into an AMF in the first place?

(Also, what's stopping you from walking out on your turn, then teleporting away? AMF is only a 10' radius.)

This.

Even low level wizards should have access to Heart of Air, which can be discharged for freedom of movement.

[Bard for Kicks]

How did you, a high-level wizard, let yourself get "shoved" into an AMF in the first place?

(Also, what's stopping you from walking out on your turn, then teleporting away? AMF is only a 10' radius.)
Maybe I should clarify...
I wasn't shoved in one yet...I'm just anticipating this happening.
Basically, my DM will probably cloak a dungeon (or an entire plane...whatever he feels like) in a huge antimagic field that I must go through (or elllllsssse) and I can't use any divination cheese or any of that fun stuff. Therefore, I can't have my buffs/spells/items shut down or I'm toast.

[Bard for Kicks]

Strictly by RAW, if the spell you want to cast could be cast from the outside into an AMF effectively, you can just as well cast it while standing *in* that AMF and get the same effect. AMF does nothing to nullify or make spells fizzle, the way Counterspells, Dispels, or just losing Concentration does- all it does is cause the magic to not do anything while in the AMF area. If your spell has a proof-from-AMF clause on it already, such as Instantaneous Conjurations and Wall of Force, then the AMF does nothing to prevent you from casting them with their normal effect.

(Note this is the absolute strict RAW interpretation; it differs dramatically from how many people think AMF *should* operate, and is often altered as an unknown/unmentioned houserule, which will probably become an explicit houserule if you bring this up with your DM.)

I agree with this interpretation but I really can't cast anything from outside because I will be forced to enter the antimagic field anyway so everything will be suppressed. My buffs wont fizzle but they still wont work so I can't cast and walk in because I'll still be screwed anyhow.

If I put up prismatic sphere or wall of force (make it like a cube) around myself, will I be exempt from the effects of AMF while I am in the AMF? There seems to be some confusion about this with my DM..

[Psyren]

Maybe I should clarify...
I wasn't shoved in one yet...I'm just anticipating this happening.
Basically, my DM will probably cloak a dungeon (or an entire plane...whatever he feels like) in a huge antimagic field that I must go through (or elllllsssse) and I can't use any divination cheese or any of that fun stuff. Therefore, I can't have my buffs/spells/items shut down or I'm toast.

Planar Binding/Gate something big and burly to protect you while you're a muggle. Failing that, kindly ask your DM when he'd like you to start playing the game again, and in the meantime, start beating your high score in Angry Birds.

[Bard for Kicks]

Well. My big+burly cohort is probably going to die as well...
So..evaluating the possibilities:

Possible
Initiate of Mystra...is there a way to get caster level nigh-infinite? That is the only way to beat out the Tainted Scholar's nigh-infinite caster level...

Impossible
...everything else...:smallfrown:

[Psyren]

Honestly you might be safer on the dead magic plane; beating a pumped-up Tainted Scholar in a straight-up fight is tantamount to suicide. All he needs to do is obtain/cast a NI caster level Blasphemy and you're toast, no save.

[eggs]

Iron HeaRT SURRRRGGGGEEEE!!!! :smalltongue:

Alternatively:

Step 1:
Take levels in Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.
Step 2:
Activate the Veil.
Step 3:
Casually ask other members of the group whether the veil blocks AMF.
Step 4:
While everyone else at the table is helplessly dragged into the inevitable endless spittle-drenched debate, use the distraction to shank the evil villain in the back with a broadsword.

[Bard for Kicks]

Honestly you might be safer on the dead magic plane; beating a pumped-up Tainted Scholar in a straight-up fight is tantamount to suicide. All he needs to do is obtain/cast a NI caster level Blasphemy and you're toast, no save.

Well. The rest of my party decided to play Warrior-archetype characters in an optimized campaign (yeah. im essentially the only opposition..) so I think we still have a chance (if only one or two of em get downed per turn) because the villain will probably save me for dessert.

But. I think my earlier question wasn't answered...Can I cast in AMF if I'm cubed in a wall of force?

Usually, all conflicts have some sort of resolution. Why would WoTC create this menace of a spell if there isn't really a solution even involving tricks?

[Ravenica]

because it's the solution for solving the conflict that is casters?

[Mnemnosyne]

It sounds to me like a good answer might be a golem. Basically, make a Golem Mecha: Build a Huge golem with a chest cavity large enough for you to ride in. Climb into your golem, use a small sliding window or perhaps just a glassteel or other hard, durable, transparent material so that you can look out and intelligently direct your golem. Holes are permitted up to a certain minimum size while still blocking line of effect, so you could just have a few eyeholes to look out of and it would still block an AMF's line of effect. Inside the golem you're completely safe and still able to cast. If your golem is in danger of being defeated, you can use an escape spell to get the hell out of there and try again with a better plan (like, more golems, or better golems, or something) later.

And yes, if you put up a prismatic sphere you're exempt from the effects of the AMF. AMF is an emanation, which means anything that breaks line of effect from its source stops it. Your problem here would be you need to move, and a prismatic sphere is stationary. However, there is an item that might help. For a short time. The Cube of Force, with either the 4th or the 5th face active should block an AMF's emanation. Problem is it's 36 charges/day and the fact that it drains charges per minute of use. Best case scenario (if the 4th face works), you've got 9 minutes of protection from the cube of force. Worst case scenario, you have 6 minutes. And that's not counting attacks that drain additional charges, so in practice you'd probably have less than 6 minutes total.


Usually, all conflicts have some sort of resolution. Why would WoTC create this menace of a spell if there isn't really a solution even involving tricks?
It should be noted that the spell has a solution, a very simple one: walk 10 feet. Covering an entire dungeon and/or plane with an AMF is outside the bounds of the rules as they are generally understood. Under the normal rules, a dead magic zone is the only way for such a large area to be impervious to casting, and under a dead magic zone, you only need to make a maximum caster level check of 29 to cast 9th level spells with Initiate of Mystra.

Outside of epic spells, at least, but of course epic spells are meant to be countered by epic spells, I'm sure.

[Psyren]

But. I think my earlier question wasn't answered...Can I cast in AMF if I'm cubed in a wall of force?

Wait, is it an AMF, or a dead magic plane? They're not exactly the same; with the former, you can at least cast and prepare a little before you end up in the field (somehow.) Or stay outside the field and cast into it.

As far as casting in it, you would need to completely surround yourself (similar to a solid Forcecage) to break LoE from the AMF. The problem is that the spells that would surround and protect you - Forcecage and Resilient Sphere for example, are not explicitly immune to AMF themselves. Logically they would be, but they're not listed by RAW.



Usually, all conflicts have some sort of resolution. Why would WoTC create this menace of a spell if there isn't really a solution even involving tricks?

They are, and I already gave you a solution - Calling spells are unaffected by AMF. Since the Scholar will be just as powerless on the dead magic plane as you will, it'll come down to whose bodyguards are tougher. So you'll have to rely on your mundane teammates, unless you gate in a bruiser with some nice Ex moves.

If you're on the dead magic plane and he's not, then he can wipe you out as soon as you appear - so you may as well pitch a tent and start farming.

[Aegis013]

Usually, all conflicts have some sort of resolution. Why would WoTC create this menace of a spell if there isn't really a solution even involving tricks?

Depending on how big the DM makes it, you could use the tinfoil hat trick, teleport out and try to disjunction the thing, but it's certainly not garunteed to work.

The tinfoil hat trick is using shrink item to make a large metal cone small enough to put on your head. Possibly using Permanency or simply refreshing the spell as necessary. When you enter the Anti-Magic Field, the cone grows to its original size; large enough to conceal you, blocking line of effect and allowing you to teleport away to safety.

Though with the way you speak of this, it might be like a DM I had, who wasn't afraid to use Anti-Magic fields 30+ miles in diameter...

[Kansaschaser]

Well. My big+burly cohort is probably going to die as well...
So..evaluating the possibilities:

Possible
Initiate of Mystra...is there a way to get caster level nigh-infinite? That is the only way to beat out the Tainted Scholar's nigh-infinite caster level...

Impossible
...everything else...:smallfrown:

Why would you need a "nigh-infinite" caster level?

[Bard for Kicks]

Depending on how big the DM makes it, you could use the tinfoil hat trick, teleport out and try to disjunction the thing, but it's certainly not garunteed to work.

The tinfoil hat trick is using shrink item to make a large metal cone small enough to put on your head. Possibly using Permanency or simply refreshing the spell as necessary. When you enter the Anti-Magic Field, the cone grows to its original size; large enough to conceal you, blocking line of effect and allowing you to teleport away to safety.

Though with the way you speak of this, it might be like a DM I had, who wasn't afraid to use Anti-Magic fields 30+ miles in diameter...

Yup my DM sounds a lllooooot like your DM. Though. i'm not trying to port to safety, I'll keep it in my book. In fact, I'll have it Permanencied for all of my paranoia needs. :smallwink: How did you handle the AMF situation with your DM? Did you just port or did you have to take care of some business in the AMF?

Mnemnosyne, your golem gets +1 for creativity! :smallbiggrin: I think it is awesome enough to fly-maybe. But I'm not sure how the glass could protect me...does AMF not penetrate the golem? Is this sorta like what Psyren mentioned? (Psyren's deffs on the right track!) Covering oneself on all sides to escape LoE?

[Aegis013]

Why would you need a "nigh-infinite" caster level?

Initiate of Mystra:
"...In an antimagic field, you must make a successful caster level check against a DC equal to 11+the caster level of the antimagic field. If this check is successful your spell functions normally..."

Presumably the Tainted Scholar foe presumed to be casting the AMF has nigh-infinite caster level.

[Aegis013]

Yup my DM sounds a lllooooot like your DM. Though. i'm not trying to port to safety, I'll keep it in my book. In fact, I'll have it Permanencied for all of my paranoia needs. :smallwink: How did you handle the AMF situation with your DM? Did you just port or did you have to take care of some business in the AMF?

I herded to my group by the nose away from those areas. I never actually went inside any of them. The only thing inside one that I needed to destroy was an airship with a 900ft diameter anti-magic field around it. I deposited an Invisible [metamagic] prismatic sphere in its path and teleported away. I actually asked the playground for help in dealing with the situation, I wouldn't have managed it without them.

Your antimagic field won't be moving, so depositing invisible prismatic spheres for it to run into probably won't work.

[tyckspoon]

But. I think my earlier question wasn't answered...Can I cast in AMF if I'm cubed in a wall of force?

Usually, all conflicts have some sort of resolution. Why would WoTC create this menace of a spell if there isn't really a solution even involving tricks?

First question: Depends on where the AMF comes from. If you can put a barrier (Walls of Force/Prismatic Wall/Sphere, in your case) between yourself and the origin point of the AMF, then yes, you will block it out and can operate normally within your fort. If the DM says the origin is "everywhere" (each point is creating its own AMF), then you can't separate yourself from it.

For the second.. the main thing is an entire Antimagic Dungeon is *not* how the effect is meant to be used. Normally, it's only present as the spell- a spell-level 6 effect, point-blank on the user, with a very modest 10-foot radius area. Typically this means it's a very niche option, because the kinds of characters and creatures that can create an AMF are strongly incentivized *not* to use it- they almost always have a better way to solve a situation than to disable their own magical effects and items.

Edit: Also, do you know what ability your DM's undead caster is using to get 'nigh infinite caster level', or are you just assuming he has it? Tainted Scholar doesn't actually offer that- it runs Bonus Spells and Save DCs off of its Taint scores, but those aren't numbers you have to be concerned about to try and defeat this AMF.

[Kansaschaser]

Initiate of Mystra:
"...In an antimagic field, you must make a successful caster level check against a DC equal to 11+the caster level of the antimagic field. If this check is successful your spell functions normally..."

Presumably the Tainted Scholar foe presumed to be casting the AMF has nigh-infinite caster level.

Ah! So you just need to make sure the Antimagic Field doesn't happen in the first place. You could focus on counterspelling. With the Improved Counterspell feat, you don't even have to have the same spell as the caster. You can lose a spell of 1 level higher of the same scool to counterspell. So you just won't be able to counterspell anything of 9th level unless you have that exact spell prepared.

Just spend the entire combat counterspelling the Tainted Scholar. If you shut down their spellcasting, then your companions can focus on taking down the target.

If you want to be especially mean, you could take one level of Archmage and take the Mastery of Counterspelling. So, any spell you counter can be turned on the Tainted Scholar.

[Randomguy]

I think tainted scholars only get nigh-infinite spell slots and save DC's, not caster level. I'm not sure, though.

If it's an antimagic field, a mundane solution would work. since AMF, even a dungeon wide one, is an emanation, that means it's blocked by total cover. So get yourself a popemobile or something similar (such as a wooden crate that's beg enough for you to stand inside it) only with an arrow slit in it so that you can cast spells out of. Make sure to have a spare box or two shrunk (via shrink item) on your head, so that if the original box is disintigrated, the new box grows to evelope you.

You'll look ridiculous, but you'll still have all your ULTIMATE ARCANE POWERZZ!, so you're good.
Note: You'll either need eye holes in the box or a ring of X-ray vision.

If it's a dead magic zone then the DC for initiate of mystra isn't nigh-infinite, so that's got you covered.

The wall of force thing won't work, because you don't have any way of actually moving the walls of force.

[Karoht]

Strictly by RAW, if the spell you want to cast could be cast from the outside into an AMF effectively, you can just as well cast it while standing *in* that AMF and get the same effect. AMF does nothing to nullify or make spells fizzle, the way Counterspells, Dispels, or just losing Concentration does- all it does is cause the magic to not do anything while in the AMF area. If your spell has a proof-from-AMF clause on it already, such as Instantaneous Conjurations and Wall of Force, then the AMF does nothing to prevent you from casting them with their normal effect.

(Note this is the absolute strict RAW interpretation; it differs dramatically from how many people think AMF *should* operate, and is often altered as an unknown/unmentioned houserule, which will probably become an explicit houserule if you bring this up with your DM.)

Question:
Could one cast the spell Telekinesis while standing in the AMF, and use it on a rock outside the AMF?
My apologies if this is an obvious question, I've had very little experience dealing with AMF cheese.

[Kansaschaser]

Question:
Could one cast the spell Telekinesis while standing in the AMF, and use it on a rock outside the AMF?
My apologies if this is an obvious question, I've had very little experience dealing with AMF cheese.

No, you can't cast spells inside an Antimagic Field. If you were outside the field and the rock you targeted were outside the field as well, then you could use the "Violent Thrust" maneuver to hurl the rock at a target standing inside the Antimagic Field.

[Bard for Kicks]

First question: Depends on where the AMF comes from. If you can put a barrier (Walls of Force/Prismatic Wall/Sphere, in your case) between yourself and the origin point of the AMF, then yes, you will block it out and can operate normally within your fort. If the DM says the origin is "everywhere" (each point is creating its own AMF), then you can't separate yourself from it.

For the second.. the main thing is an entire Antimagic Dungeon is *not* how the effect is meant to be used. Normally, it's only present as the spell- a spell-level 6 effect, point-blank on the user, with a very modest 10-foot radius area. Typically this means it's a very niche option, because the kinds of characters and creatures that can create an AMF are strongly incentivized *not* to use it- they almost always have a better way to solve a situation than to disable their own magical effects and items.

Edit: Also, do you know what ability your DM's undead caster is using to get 'nigh infinite caster level', or are you just assuming he has it? Tainted Scholar doesn't actually offer that- it runs Bonus Spells and Save DCs off of its Taint scores, but those aren't numbers you have to be concerned about to try and defeat this AMF.

1. To be determined.
2. Good point. I think shaping it to be huge might not be what WoTC intended.
3. Oh. My DM is undead so he can get away with obscene amounts of taint that give him obscene amt of caster level (im fairly certain that is how he did it, but regardless, he is still DM so DM's word is law. im sure he has some adventure mapped out to explain why)

[tyckspoon]

Question:
Could one cast the spell Telekinesis while standing in the AMF, and use it on a rock outside the AMF?
My apologies if this is an obvious question, I've had very little experience dealing with AMF cheese.

Yes. You still have Line of Effect to the rock you want to influence, and the actual location of the magical effect is not in the AMF, so it works. The main point is to remember that AMF does *not* prevent you from spellcasting within it- it does not counter or dispel your spells, it does nothing to stop the spell from actually being cast. What it does is suppress magical effects within its area. That's all. You can cast all you want while standing in an AMF; you just need to meet one of two conditions in order for that spell to do something. Either A: the target/origin point of your spell must be outside the AMF area, or B: the spell you are casting must have an exemption allowing its effects to work in an AMF regardless (ex, all Instantaneous Conjurations, Wall of Force, Prismatic Sphere, Prismatic Wall as stated in AMF's own text.)

[Psyren]

Yes. You still have Line of Effect to the rock you want to influence, and the actual location of the magical effect is not in the AMF, so it works. The main point is to remember that AMF does *not* prevent you from spellcasting within it- it does not counter or dispel your spells, it does nothing to stop the spell from actually being cast. What it does is suppress magical effects within its area. That's all. You can cast all you want while standing in an AMF; you just need to meet one of two conditions in order for that spell to do something. Either A: the target/origin point of your spell must be outside the AMF area, or B: the spell you are casting must have an exemption allowing its effects to work in an AMF regardless (ex, all Instantaneous Conjurations, Wall of Force, Prismatic Sphere, Prismatic Wall as stated in AMF's own text.)

Something about that sounds off. So I can cast AMF, and throw fireballs all I want, so long as my targets are more than 10' away?

[Mnemnosyne]

It should be noted that anything that blocks line of effect for the antimagic field will also block line of effect for you. That means, you'll be able to cast spells wherever you are, but you will not be able to target things outside of your safe box. This applies in the case of a golem mecha as well as any other kind of physical box.

I am...not sure if it applies in the case of a cube of force. The description is not completely clear. It says it puts up a "special wall of force" and the table specifically says "keeps out" under each entry, suggesting that perhaps it keeps things out, but still allows you to cast out of it?

If you can cast out of a Cube of Force, that may be your best solution. Get or make one of those.

Now, tyckspoon appears to be partly correct from a strict reading of the Antimagic Field spell, and you can cast just fine inside it as long as your target is outside it or you're casting a spell that the AMF can't suppress. However, the part that states "(The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)" directly points out that the effect of an instantaneous conjuration is separate from the conjuration itself (the casting part is still something that gets suppressed, so nothing gets conjured in the first place), so because of that specific passage it seems you can't cast an instantaneous conjuration within the field.

It also says that certain spells remain unaffected by an antimagic field, though. It doesn't say the effect of the spells remains unaffected, it says the spell itself is unaffected. Which means that you unequivocally can cast wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall even when you yourself are inside an AMF.

Therefore it seems a solution is actually simple: cast a Prismatic Sphere, which will shield you from the AMF and allow you to cast out of it use your cube of force inside it, then step out with the cube active. However, it's entirely likely that the DM will houserule that away, because although it is a strict reading, it's also not the common interpretation.

[Lactantius]

Another creative way to be prepared against AMF-attacks:

Contingency spell.
Trigger Event: any time the caster is within any AMF
Then do: cast yourself AMF with your Archmage High Arcana "Mastery of Shaping," with a excluded 5x5ft square where you stand.


Voila, now you have countered an AMF with your own AMF in which you can cast.

Could work since the contingency is always triggered on second just before the other event would happen.
So, our own AMF gets activated as as soon as we enter / get caught within an enemy's AMF.

It is stationary though, so either buff up and make your stand or 'port away...

[Psyren]

I answered my own fireball question. Rules Compendium 11:


If a spell’s point of origin is inside an antimagic area, that spell is entirely suppressed.
...
If an instantaneous spell is entirely suppressed, that spell is effectively canceled. (It’s suppressed, and its duration instantaneously expires.)

Fireballs are instantaneous, thus they get entirely suppressed right as they come out of me, and cease to exist before they can exit the field.

But this does also support Tyck's reading - if I cast a spell that does not originate on me, it won't be suppressed. Telekinesis does indeed appear to be such a spell.

Another nice trick for casters, unless I'm missing something :smallsmile: