3.5 Mounted Charging Massive Damage?

[roguemetal]

Mounted Charging has always been a little strange to me and my gaming group, so when I rolled up this level 8 character, there were questions at the table. Figured you gamers at Giant should have the answers.

LEVEL 1 Barbarian/7 Fighter

Feats: Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Improved Bull Rush, Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Combat Brute
Abilites: Pounce (alternate Barbarian option Lion’s Totem CC)

Attack = BAB (Lions Totem) + Strength + Weapon Focus + Charge
Damage/Attack = Spirited Charge ((Lance + Strength) + Leap Attack (Power Attack) + Brute Combat (Power Attack)

Attack = 8/3+5+1+2 = 16/11 (Power Attack redirected to -8 AC, Shock Trooper)
On First Round: Damage/Attack = 3(1d8+7+3(8)) Minimum 96 Damage
On Other Rounds vs. Same Target: Damage/Attack = 3(1d8+7+3(8)+3(8)) Minimum 168 Damage

Reasoning:
On The First Round, with a Two Handed Lance (lance says it MAY be wielded one handed while mounted, but not must) and either the mounted character or the horse itself (unsure and needs clarification) makes a jump check and performs a leap attack with a full power attack, using shock trooper to make the negative to attack a negative to AC, then uses ride by attack to move away. On this turn you do not gain the +2 Charge bonus, as it states that bonus is only granted at the END of a charge. The second round, you bout face and charge the same opponent, this time ending the charge on them in order to utilize the charge bonus and Pounce ability granted by Lion’s Totem, and using Brute Combat to add more with Power Attack (according to Multiplier rules I believe the multipliers apply to the same power attack bonus, but don’t multiply one another) all of which is eventually multiplied by Spirited Charge. Furthermore, the character fully qualifies for Cavalier, an ideal Prestige Class, and does get rage.

Questions/Concerns:
1. Although I haven’t found anything about this, I see no rule stopping the use of multiple Tactical Maneuvers from different Tactical Feats in the same round, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist, which is a concern.
2. According to Multiplier rules, if multipliers don’t stack, does that apply to overall damage? Since the power attack is getting multiplied I assume the multiplier for lance damage is separate but includes the power attack damage, but I need clarification.
3. Lances state that they are two handed weapons with the ability to be wielded one handed while mounted. Since the Power Attack feat adds twice the number subtracted from attack on “two handed weapons” I don’t know if I can actually one hand them and still get the bonus. (which might lead to dual wielded lances)
4. I have made an assumption that Pounce will not work while making a Ride By Attack, but I could still use clarification on that. I figure it says for ride by attack that one may make an attack during a charge, and then move, while the rules for pounce are a full round action following a charge, which could be interpreted to mean one attacks once, continues the charge, then makes a full round attack, or move full round move, but those seem too ridiculous and ill worded to make sense. Not that this isn’t ridiculous already.
5. Is my math just wrong?

[Loki_42]

Let's see, I could be wrong on these, but I'll answer to the best of my abilities.

1. I'm not entirely sure on that one, I'm not well versed in the rules for Tactical Feats.
2. Aren't the multiplier rules that they do stack, just not in a direct way, like two X2 multipliers=one X3 multiplier? As to your question directly, I would probably just role the lance damage into the power attack multiplication, but that may not be RAW. If they're two separate multipliers, it might be more balanced to treat them separately for damage. Ask your DM.
3. I do not believe you would get the bonus power attack returns for one handing a lance. I think power attack extra damage is a function of the actual number of hands, such as how you can treat any one handed weapon held in both hands as getting the 1-1/2 str mod to damage and power attack returns, or why you can't Power Attack an exotic Bastard Sword.
4. I might allow the move, full-attack, move option if I were the DM, Ride-by Attack isn't that great a feat, but I'm not sure the RAW, and your interpretation sounds correct.
5. I can't really follow your math, as I'm not seeing the total numbers your getting anywhere. However, I wouldn't doubt it if you were getting obscenely high damage numbers, it sounds like you've stumbled into Ubercharging, a powerful, but ultimately limited optimization trick that's all about stacking multipliers.

[TuggyNE]

When stacking multipliers for abstract values like damage, you add them together and subtract the number of extra multipliers to get the final multiplier: x2 + x2 = x3; x3 + x4 = x6. However, lances multiply total damage, while the power attack multipliers you're using only affect power attack. Therefore, you stack the power attack damage up with proper multiplication, add to everything else to get regular total damage, then multiply that total to get lance charging damage.

I'm not entirely clear on the wording of Combat Brute, but it seems to be intended to increase the power attack multiplier by 50%. However, consider: if you already have "enough" damage, do you really want to delay your pounce-charge another round just to get another 16 damage? Instead, you may want to focus on annihilating a given opponent in a single round.
Your damage breakdown in that case would look like this:
1d8 + 7 (1½Str)
+8 x3 (leap attack)
x3 (spirited charge)
for a result of:
+16/+11 3d8 + 93
or an average of 213 damage if both hit.

I don't think Leap Attack was written with mounted combat in mind, so any adaptation will probably require some amount of DM adjudication. However, the simplest approach is to require you to jump off your mount and land back on it, very stunt-rider-like.

Finally, if you really don't think you have enough damage, add the valorous (another multiplier!) and possibly collision (flat multipliable damage) enhancements to your lance.

[Lateral]

Sorry, Leap Attack doesn't work that way. If you're jumping off the mount, you're making the attack unmounted, and if your mount does the jumping then you aren't the one doing the leap so Leap Attack doesn't work.

[roguemetal]

When stacking multipliers for abstract values like damage, you add them together and subtract the number of extra multipliers to get the final multiplier: x2 + x2 = x3; x3 + x4 = x6. However, lances multiply total damage, while the power attack multipliers you're using only affect power attack. Therefore, you stack the power attack damage up with proper multiplication, add to everything else to get regular total damage, then multiply that total to get lance charging damage.

I'm not entirely clear on the wording of Combat Brute, but it seems to be intended to increase the power attack multiplier by 50%.

I don't think Leap Attack was written with mounted combat in mind, so any adaptation will probably require some amount of DM adjudication. However, the simplest approach is to require you to jump off your mount and land back on it, very stunt-rider-like.

First, thank you for clarifying the multiplier situation.

According to Combat Brute attack rolls gain a bonus equal to the attack roll penalty x3 for two handed weapons. In the example of the feat, a character power attacks for six, and gets an "extra" 18 damage with a two handed weapon. But power attack damage is stated as "extra" damage, as is the multiplier for leap attack. Very odd wording which is why I was unsure how it stacked with leap attack. Might just be a total x5 bonus instead of x3+x3.

I hadn't considered jumping AND landing on the horse.
By your logic, I think I understand... I can at least use jump and meet the mounted unit since only "you" need to land in square threatening your opponent with the lance, and not "on the ground", so why not land on the horse? It says it doesn't interrupt charge movement even with difficult terrain, and if there's questions about the horse leaving the charge, I can always have the horse at least "leap" itself to remain in contact with the character. I was only hoping Leap itself would qualify, considering charge applies to player and mount together, why not jump? Would leap attack work if it stated "performs a jump action" instead of "cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump"? Since you and the mount share movement, and jump is movement, wouldn't they be shared?

Leap: You can get your mount to leap obstacles as part of its
movement. Use your Ride modifier or the mount’s Jump modifier,
whichever is lower, to see how far the creature can jump. If you fail
your Ride check, you fall off the mount when it leaps and take the
appropriate falling damage (at least 1d6 points). This usage does not
take an action, but is part of the mount’s movement.

Oh, and many thanks for the valorous tip.

[Black Cross]

I hadn't considered jumping AND landing on the horse.
By your logic, I think I understand... I can at least use jump and meet the mounted unit since only "you" need to land in square threatening your opponent with the lance, and not "on the ground", so why not land on the horse? It says it doesn't interrupt charge movement even with difficult terrain, and if there's questions about the horse leaving the charge, I can always have the horse at least "leap" itself to remain in contact with the character. I was only hoping Leap itself would qualify, considering charge applies to player and mount together, why not jump? Would leap attack work if it stated "performs a jump action" instead of "cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump"? Since you and the mount share movement, and jump is movement, wouldn't they be shared?

Leap: You can get your mount to leap obstacles as part of its
movement. Use your Ride modifier or the mount’s Jump modifier,
whichever is lower, to see how far the creature can jump. If you fail
your Ride check, you fall off the mount when it leaps and take the
appropriate falling damage (at least 1d6 points). This usage does not
take an action, but is part of the mount’s movement.


If you're considering attempting to utilize your mount's jump for your Leap Attack, then I must caution you against wary DMs. If your mount makes the jump, the you do not qualify for the Leap Attack feat as it specifically states "...you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance during your jump, and end your jump in a square that from which you threaten your target..." This means you must make the jump check. Thus, such a thing won't work unless you have a sleepy, inexperienced, inattentive, or an IDGRA DM.

Also, you can't just jump randomly while sitting in your saddle. The human body doesn't work that way, though I'm certain there are plenty who wish it did. What you could do, I suppose is make a DC 40 Ride check to stand on your mount. (Epic Level Handbook, p. 43)

Stand on Mount: This allows you to stand on your
mount's back even during movement or combat. You take
no penalties to actions while doing so.

After that, you could then make the requisite jump check to attempt to leap forward with your mount, thus achieving all necessary prerequisites for the feat's function. Since the lance has reach, you should be good on finding a square you threaten the enemy from. Not sure how that would effect the inevitable Tumble check that would occur, however. In any event, I must point out that it is likely exceedingly safe to assume that the developers never intended Leap Attack to be combined with a mounted charger. Why? Simple. It's because they had already incorporated rules for powerful forward momentum being applied to lance attacks. This is where "lances do double damage on a charge" comes from. Fun Fact: Power Attack damage is incorporated in that. Also, they included Spirited Charge (which deals extra damage that accounts for Power Attack AND allows for weapons other than a lance) in the Core Player's Handbook.

Of course, I could be incorrect. Perhaps the sick, twisted minds at WotC decided that we didn't have enough ways to hammer the hairline of people sitting in the DM's chair, so they threw this out there, too. It's a distinct possibility. However, it's just as likely that no one ever actually sat down and had the thought, "What if somebody decided to try and use this while mounted for silly amounts of extra bonuses via a convoluted mess of checks?" But then, they DID decide it was a good idea to give easy access to Pounce to the players, so... >.>

[JadenKnight]

Something I always like to use in my builds is the Monk's Decisive Strike variant. Granted that the house rules in my group make it easier, but you may be able to convince your GM to let you use it.

"If you select this class feature, you do not gain flurry of blows (or any later improvements to that class feature).
Benefit: As a full-round action, make one attack with an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon, using your highest base attack bonus but taking a –2 penalty on this attack roll. If the attack hits, it deals double damage (as does any other attack you make before the start of your next turn)." (PHB2 pg. 51)

If alignment restrictions are the issue, there is always chaos monk from DR335 (p88). The other big sticking point I see is trying to make the lance a "monk weapon". There are feats for making other weapons work as "monk weapons" so a custom feat for doing that with lance may be in order.

Again, sorry, if your GM is fairly RAW rules strict this probably won't be useful to you, but at least to me it makes more sense (both mechanically and aesthetically) than jumping off your horse to gain leap attack damage.

Also you may want to consider going into paladin for the sake of some tasty charge boosting spells that they have. I don't remember all of the spells and abilities he uses but my friend regularly does 400-500 damage when charging.

In any case, good luck, have fun, and May your GM choke on his own hatred as you massively overkill his encounters.