briar web vs noobs

[limejuicepowder]

I am DMing a group of 5 people new to DnD, with one more experienced player. They are currently 2nd level, and in the near future they will be attempting to defend a town from a goblin tribe, led by the vicious shaman, Maddalogbok.

I was thinking of making this miniboss spirit shaman 3, focusing mostly on crowd control, like entangle......and briar web. After reading the spell though, I'm concerned briar web is going to be death to whoever is in it's radius. Would it be a bad idea to to send a 3rd level spellcaster against a group as green as this one?

[sonofzeal]

- It's Ref-negates. Chances are someone will pass their save, and chances are even better it won't catch the whole party

- Even if peopl fail their save, they can still get out without taking damage, it just takes a while.

- Even if people don't want to take the time, a 2nd lvl character can usually survive 2d6

- It grants total cover based on difference, and that's a two-edged sword. Creatures with total cover can't be targetted, keeping the goblins safe from the PCs but also keeping the PCs safe from the goblins.

[Pilo]

Well about Briar web, the DD will be close to 13.
Elite array for monster: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8; as a goblin spirit shaman his stats will be : Str 10-2 Dex 8+2 Con 13 Int 12 Sag 15 Cha 14-2, PVs: 17
As the pcs will be in the briar web, it means they probably will get total cover so 2nd hand goblins will miss them with their ranger attack.

So the best thing your pcs can do to survive is to stand still until the end of the spell.
Maybe you can give them a warning with one or two npcs who die while trying to get out.

Without knowing more about your PCs, i can't tell if this encounter is too hard or not, if they manage to play as a team and understand their characters a little, they may be able to do it.

If they are just stupid bulls who charge anyone they meet, they deserve the lesson. You are not forced to kill them even if they fail. The goblins may want them as slaves and you can give each of your pcs a flaw without counterpart which will be a reminder of their fail.

[Psyren]

Nah, I think at 2nd-level they should be able to handle it. As long as they don't move, the spell does nothing, and the fighter types who do have to move should be tough enough at level 2 to withstand a few pokes.

It does damage for every 5 feet travelled too, so it's not like making it difficult terrain will cause them extra damage for trying to move.

[Vladislav]

You are completely right in your assessement that Briar Web might destroy the party. While a bunch of genre-savvy and optimized PCs can handle it, a round or two of confusion and suboptimal decisions is all it takes to quickly take this encounter downhill.

Half the party make the save, charge the goblins, are cut down (because they only have half the fighting power), while the other half takes damage repeatedly trying to break free and help their friends... it's not gonna be pretty.

If a TPK is not something you're ready for at this time, I'd suggest to mellow things down a bit.

[Psyren]

I really don't see what's so bad about it. If you don't move the spell does nothing to you, so the party can just pull out their bows. In fact, any ranged PCs actually benefit, since they can't be charged, they take no penalties (in spite of the picture in SpC) and the enemy would take damage from it too trying to reach them.

[Vladislav]

If the five new players in question could summon Psyren as a tactical advisor for the duration of the encounter, I would gladly recant my opinion.

[Psyren]

I dunno - "don't move over difficult terrain" isn't exactly Sun Tzu. :smalltongue: (Especially when said terrain is pointy.)

[Ketiara]

You could let them make a spot check or something and if they make it let's say a spot of 5 they see and realise that it will be extremely painfull to move in this web... If they move it's their own fault.

[Diarmuid]

Any casters could also be making Spellcraft checks to identify the spell and thus know about the inherent dangers it posesses...they could then warn their fellows about said dangers. Heck, even if they dont see him cast it, they could potentially identify the spell effect in place.

If you're not confident that they'll know about it, you could just announce the guy is casting and roll it for them and pass a not with the info you want them to have and leave it up to them. Same for if they dont see/hear him casting.

I agree that this is not too much.

[ngilop]

not that iam sayong briar wbe is going to be a TPK, but in my decades of DM ive found that you never EVER expect your players to do the thing that you would consider a given or common sense.

[limejuicepowder]

Thanks for the opinions y'all.

The party is made up of a bard/marshal, a rogue/cleric, a monk (why is there always a monk?), a druid, a barb, and a wizard. The rogue and wizard characters in particular are in extreme danger with briar web; one decent damage roll will take them down. Plus, since they are only 2nd level, even the barb with 24 hp will only be able to take maybe 3 hits before he is in a world of hurt - and since avoiding damage largely means not doing anything, I see unfun to be had.

I think I will tone it back a bit, and stick with entangle.

[mucco]

Briar Web was changed significantly in the Spell Compendium. Check it out: now it's no save, and it deals 1 damage per square traveled. I think it's a lot better for your purposes.

[limejuicepowder]

Briar Web was changed significantly in the Spell Compendium. Check it out: now it's no save, and it deals 1 damage per square traveled. I think it's a lot better for your purposes.

wow that's a lot different, and probably a lot more fair. 2d6, plus lockdown, in a 20ft radius for a level 2 spell? Kind of ridiculous. Thanks though, I'll check it out.

[Psyren]

There was another version? I was only reading the Spell Compendium one. That would explain why other people were thinking the spell was so dangerous and I didn't see anything wrong with it.

Regardless, the Spell Compendium version is actually the RAW version of the spell assuming it was the most recent reprint.

[planswalker]

pretty sure the spell hasn't been reprinted since.

[limejuicepowder]

There was another version? I was only reading the Spell Compendium one. That would explain why other people were thinking the spell was so dangerous and I didn't see anything wrong with it.

Regardless, the Spell Compendium version is actually the RAW version of the spell assuming it was the most recent reprint.

Yeah the Complete Divine one does 2d6 damage if a person fails the save and then does anything but stand still.

[Psyren]

Yeah the Complete Divine one does 2d6 damage if a person fails the save and then does anything but stand still.

Wow yeah, the CDiv version is pretty crazy. Thankfully, it's no longer RAW.