3d printer to make custom miniatures

[hushblade]

Is this a concept that's had any real world implementation? If not, are there any reasons it wouldn't be? I haven't heard of such a thing, but can't think of any good reason why not. Do they not print in the fine granularity required for a miniature? I imagine it would be quite simple with 3d software as well as the 3d printer.

And if anyone out there has a 3d printer, and some skills to create 3d models on there, I think I just found you a little hobby to make you some cash on the side xP

[lt_murgen]

I work with 3D printed parts in my day to day work. One problem I see with this is that the surface texture is not as smooth as normal plastic or metal. Another is that the material itself does not take to paint well.

[OracleofWuffing]

I've never painted any of my 3D Prints, but I've heard of a few materials that paint well. You can find a few (http://www.shapeways.com/model/42621/mage.html) folks that design miniatures as a hobby*, and there are a couple of other businesses that 3D print RPG minis, too. For what it's worth, one could also just print a miniature in color, and skip the whole painting process. I don't think that appeals to the hardcore in the target audience, though.

As far as I can tell, the big reason why it isn't done so much is because it'll basically always be cheaper and faster for someone to mold/cast in high volume than to print things out. Not to say there's not a niche for 3D Prints, it's a great way to do one-offs and custom jobs, but the folks making money in the industry right now do so off of bulk production.

*Heck, I have my avatar as a 3D Print!

[RedWarlock]

I've always thought this would be a great venture to get into, especially with a skilled artist or two, doing commissioned one-off minis for people who REALLY want a custom mini (maybe for a homebrewed race, or for a rare weapon or equipment combo that never gets made by the main-line companies).

How much IS it for color 3d printing, anyway? (I know it varies by printer and so forth, just curious for a ballpark.)

[hushblade]

I imagine price would matter a lot if you wanted something designed from scratch, minorly tweaked(A specific weapon a specific body) or a design you provide yourself.

[Siosilvar]

I'm pretty sure that the Aotrs Commander uses Shapeways (http://www.shapeways.com/) to make minis (http://www.shapeways.com/shops/aotrs_shipyards). I'm pretty sure that they come in white and he paints them after the fact, though, and they look reasonably expensive.

They do a bunch of materials, looks like. You can do color in sandstone.

[OracleofWuffing]

How much IS it for color 3d printing, anyway? (I know it varies by printer and so forth, just curious for a ballpark.)
Since I know Shapeways best, their color 3D prints are $3 startup fee, then $0.75 for each cubic centimeter your model uses. I have a couple of colored hollow 1 inch cube like objects, those are about $8 $6.50 each without any markup applied. With colored printing, the biggest concern is support, as you lose a lot of the strength you'd get in other, noncolored materials. Basically, any swords, staves, or long sticky pieces can't get smaller than 2mm in diameter- and forget about doing cinderblock-on-a-stick hammers unless you pose the hammer head to connect with another part of the miniature. (In comparison, your basic sintered print gets as small as 1mm, and specialized materials can go as low as 0.3mm.)

[Tyndmyr]

Got about three weeks till mine arrives, then I fully plan to print out some mini's. Did some already that shapeways deems printable, so should be fun times....and of course, printing my own should be somewhat more economical than shapeways.

Injection molding is cheaper, generally speaking, but custom blending of prefab parts, as seen in apps on cubify.com is pretty awesome. Imagine being able to select race, class, gender, pose, and weapons, and getting a mini fabbed up...so awesome. Lots of potential for doing things that don't have the volume for injection molding rigs.

The printers are still fairly expensive, though, and the plastic ain't cheap either. That's the main obstacle.

[eepop]

Someone probably could build a business model off of it, but it wouldn't be easy.

I imagine kickstarter would be the best medium for it.

$50 to get a miniature custom designed and printed for you
$30 to get your choice of one of the minis designed for other people

You'd probably need to be a student at an art school though so you have the requisite number of friends that could do 3D modeling that want to get in on it.

I would probably pitch in at that price.

[Togath]

What does the 3d printer thingy do?, I've never heard of them until now, other then something involving a robot with a scraping tool on it carving out objects, and another thingy which could make squarish shapes by squeezing some sort of goo out of a tube.

[Ravens_cry]

What does the 3d printer thingy do?, I've never heard of them until now, other then something involving a robot with a scraping tool on it carving out objects, and another thingy which could make squarish shapes by squeezing some sort of goo out of a tube.
Depends on the type. Some are like ink jet printers, spraying the material down in hundreds, if not thousands, of thin layers that build up to the final shape. This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_printing) should give some information.

[Yora]

What does the 3d printer thingy do?, I've never heard of them until now, other then something involving a robot with a scraping tool on it carving out objects, and another thingy which could make squarish shapes by squeezing some sort of goo out of a tube.

Is there anything else to it? :smallbiggrin:

But supposed you make a person holding a staff. How do you make the lower end of the staff when the hand that holds it is still several layers higher? Do you have to include a temporary support that is later cut away manually?

[Ravens_cry]

Is there anything else to it? :smallbiggrin:

But supposed you make a person holding a staff. How do you make the lower end of the staff when the hand that holds it is still several layers higher? Do you have to include a temporary support that is later cut away manually?
I suppose you could make it upside down.

[Yora]

Then how do you make the top of the staff, when the hand that holds it is still several layers higher? :smallamused:

[KesselZero]

Hi all,

I've actually been doing research into the feasibility of a business model much like what Tyndmyr describes, where you'd use a fun online interface to design your own perfect mini then have it printed. (Oh, and along the lines of what eepop said, my fiancee attends one art school and I work at another, so I do know a few 3d artists. :smallbiggrin:)

The biggest technical challenge these days is as OracleofWuffing describes-- full-color prints (like the ones that FigurePrints does of WoW avatars and Minecraft structures) are made from a fairly fragile composite material that limits how small pieces can be without being all breaky to about 2 mm, which isn't small enough to get details like horns or the point of a sword, for example. This composite (which Shapeways calls "sandstone") also limits what kind of support structure big pieces need (the "cinderblock-on-a-stick hammer" being a great example of something that wouldn't work). All this is why the FigurePrints of WoW avatars come in little cases and you're not supposed to touch them. Not good for tabletop gaming. Fortunately, this level of detail and strength can be achieved, but only in single-color materials like plastics and metals.

Regarding the question about building a staff from the bottom up, there are two possible answers. With many materials you can just lay down the layers of the staff and it'll stick to itself until it reaches the hand. It's actually pretty amazing what kinds of shapes can be made with extrusion processes. If that's not feasible, there are a few different options of support material-- some that breaks away, and more exciting, some that's water-soluble, so delicate bits can be made with a big supporting chunk that is then dissolved away.

I was so excited to find this thread because I've been curious to hear from other gamers about whether they'd use a service like this. I think it's basically the coolest idea of all time but I don't know if everyone feels the same. If people don't mind I'd love to hear some answers to questions I've got about how interested people would be. If you took a minute to answer, you would make my life way awesomer.

*Would you be interested in a custom mini at all?
*Would you prefer an uncolored mini that you could paint yourself, or a colored one that came ready to play?
*What do you think would be a reasonable cost for a custom mini? Would you pay more for full color?
*Would you rather use an interface akin to video games like Skyrim to choose your character's race/gender/face/hair/armor/weapons/pose/etc. from preset options, or would you rather work with a 3d artist to get a custom sculpt? Keep in mind that the second choice would be slower and lots more expensive.
*Would you support a Kickstarter for a venture like this? If not, what would you need to see before you felt comfortable supporting one?

Thanks! I hope this isn't considered spamming, since I'm asking questions about a possible business. That's certainly not my intent, and I sincerely apologize if it comes off that way. I'm just really excited about the applications of an awesome technology for a game I love, and to find other people talking about it!

EDIT: Grammar and clarification

[Tyndmyr]

Sonuva....I forgot to start the last mini print job before leaving this morning.

There's a contest under way at cubify.com(ends tomorrow, hurry!), the winning model submission of which wins a free 3d printer. Definitely worth a shot.

But yeah, the cubify definitely has the chops to make minis. Not every model is equally printable, though...cranking random 3d models through it, some of 'em looked terrible. If you're careful with your design, though, you can mostly avoid issues with support material, and get some pretty great detail. I'll try to remember to take some pictures and post 'em up this weekend.


Someone probably could build a business model off of it, but it wouldn't be easy.

I imagine kickstarter would be the best medium for it.

$50 to get a miniature custom designed and printed for you
$30 to get your choice of one of the minis designed for other people

You'd probably need to be a student at an art school though so you have the requisite number of friends that could do 3D modeling that want to get in on it.

I would probably pitch in at that price.

I admit, I've been seriously kicking around the idea of doing just this. I'm not gonna post anything up until I've got a nice collection of seriously badass minis and photos, though. Presentation and polish is everything with this kind of deal.

I can probably beat $30 on price, too. Materials, while not cheap, are not horrifically expensive...it's the time to design that's costly.


Is there anything else to it? :smallbiggrin:

But supposed you make a person holding a staff. How do you make the lower end of the staff when the hand that holds it is still several layers higher? Do you have to include a temporary support that is later cut away manually?

I use design and orientation to minimize the number of supports needed. I also use a water soluble glue to adhere the model while printing so no lateral support is needed, only vertical...I can get roughly a 45 degree outward angle with no support at all. This is...pretty good as such things go, but occasionally, you just need a temporary support. Capes/cloaks that don't quite reach the ground, for instance, really need support.

Also, if any of you enjoy dabbling with models, I wouldn't mind taking a look at them, and printing them out/posting a pic if you'd like to see how it'd work. No cash involved, just a bit of experimentation.

[KesselZero]

I'll try to remember to take some pictures and post 'em up this weekend.

Please, please do! :smallsmile: I'm so curious to see what people are doing.

[eepop]

*Would you be interested in a custom mini at all?

Yes. Assuming the price was right. I am a big fan of minis though. I bought boxes of the D&D ones, albeit back when they put more than 3 minis in each one.



*Would you prefer an uncolored mini that you could paint yourself, or a colored one that came ready to play?

I would prefer color if all else was equal, but as you mentioned it is not. If we're sacrificing in other areas, I would probably just go monocolor.



*What do you think would be a reasonable cost for a custom mini? Would you pay more for full color?

Its hard to give a price here, as there are a lot of variables. But here is my best shot.

$20 = Basic monocolored mini that is 80% of what I envision.

+$5 for full color, without sacrificing other quality

+$20 for custom designed, 100% of what I envision.



*Would you rather use an interface akin to video games like Skyrim to choose your character's race/gender/face/hair/armor/weapons/pose/etc. from preset options, or would you rather work with a 3d artist to get a custom sculpt? Keep in mind that the second choice would be slower and lots more expensive.

I would probably buy either way. From a business perspective, I would imagine the video game like interface would be better. I might pay the premium for a designer, but at the same time, if I can get good enough results from the software, I would probably spend as much money on multiple minis, without the overhead for you of having artists.



*Would you support a Kickstarter for a venture like this? If not, what would you need to see before you felt comfortable supporting one?

Yes.
I'd like to see some pics of what I could expect quality wise. When Tyndmyr gets pics they may be sufficient.

One kind of sore spot for this is that I would imagine you are wanting to get funding for two main items:
1) Buy the printer itself and some materials to be able to print
2) Pay someone to program the software for the character creator

That leaves you a little slim on what you can show without funding. If you found the money via conventional means for one or the other beforehand, it would be very reassuring. I can totally see how that would just not be feasible in a lot of cases though.


Other thoughts...

Another issue you run into is that setting up the software may be a bit tricky to support your business model. The first idea, I assume, would be to have the access to the program be free. That way people can play with it, see how awesome their model would be, and be incentivized to buy it.

But then the question comes in of how you prevent people from using your program, and taking their model elsewhere to get printed. You would need to have it be some web-required app that never gives the person using it access to their actual model file.
Or at worst, allowing people to get the model data from it, but in some encrypted/convoluted form, that then has to be fed through a program that only you have to decode it. I would be eternally paranoid about someone cracking it or leaking the decode program with this method though.

[OracleofWuffing]

+$5 for full color, without sacrificing other quality
Again, speaking with a Shapeways bias here, but the full-colored material is actually cheaper than the monocolor material per volume. Though, I guess, a good job on coloring would be a bigger price factor than material cost at that point.

Here's (http://cumuluscentral.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=12&pos=7) an example of the bog standard monocolor material. It feels somewhere between balsa wood and those candy "I Wuv You" hearts people get on Valentine's Day. This (http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/5421/tokens1.jpg) is an example of what full-color looks like. This (http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3548/mage1h.jpg) is a pretty shoddy photo of a higher-detail substance, these (http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/7246/frontclosed.jpg) pictures (http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/96/backyj.jpg) are better looking, but that model's 10cm tall for scale.

Keep in mind that size will greatly matter in determining your pricing scheme. If you just scale a medium figurine to a large size, it'll be like eight times the volume of the original model. Once you get to Huge and Gargantuan creatures, I expect to see some eyes bug out at the pricing. You could also print entire battle maps (http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9412/wsfcassle.jpg), for people that have more money than sense. :smalltongue:

[KesselZero]

eepop-- Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply! You hit the nail on the head with pretty much all the concerns I've had about getting a business like this going. I think the model would have to be based on a video-game style interface to have any scale whatsoever; we're aiming for people who want the perfect mini for their new character, not a handcrafted piece of art (although it would be cool to have total custom work as an option!).



I'd like to see some pics of what I could expect quality wise. When Tyndmyr gets pics they may be sufficient.

One kind of sore spot for this is that I would imagine you are wanting to get funding for two main items:
1) Buy the printer itself and some materials to be able to print
2) Pay someone to program the software for the character creator

That leaves you a little slim on what you can show without funding. If you found the money via conventional means for one or the other beforehand, it would be very reassuring. I can totally see how that would just not be feasible in a lot of cases though.

Yup, this is exactly the problem. :smallsmile: It would take a huge amount of money up frotn to get the hardware and software in place, but at least a demo version would be necessary for a Kickstarter campaign. I wouldn't expect people to pledge money for something like this sight unseen. I'm thinking that the best course would be to put together a very simple demo character creator and use it to print a couple of figures, possibly via a printing service like Shapeways-- just to show that it could be done, to have some examples, etc. Then raise money with a Kickstarter to flesh out the character creator, make more options, and buy a printer. Still not cheap, but at least I wouldn't have to pay for everything before trying to raise funds.



Another issue you run into is that setting up the software may be a bit tricky to support your business model. The first idea, I assume, would be to have the access to the program be free. That way people can play with it, see how awesome their model would be, and be incentivized to buy it.

But then the question comes in of how you prevent people from using your program, and taking their model elsewhere to get printed. You would need to have it be some web-required app that never gives the person using it access to their actual model file.
Or at worst, allowing people to get the model data from it, but in some encrypted/convoluted form, that then has to be fed through a program that only you have to decode it. I would be eternally paranoid about someone cracking it or leaking the decode program with this method though.

This is an interesting point, one that I actually hadn't thought of. Yes, I intend to let people use the software for free at will for exactly the reasons you mention; buying the actual print is where money comes in. 3d printers operate on a couple of standard file types (STL for most; full-color printers use a different format that I forget at the moment) that the character creator would need to output as. The app would definitely be browser-based and the idea is that the user would never see the backend. They would just play with a fun builder program, and if they hit "Buy" it would save the STL or other 3d file to our server and give the order to print it. I don't know much about web security, though, so I don't know what the odds are that somebody would come up with a way to steal the output. One way of combating this is to attempt to keep prices down so that printing a stolen model via Shapeways or similar wouldn't even be much cheaper than ordering it legitimately. Then you just have to worry about people with their own 3d printers...

Thanks for your thoughts on pricing, as well. I believe that doing full-color prints would be the real "killer app" that would appeal to people like me who love custom minis but don't have painting skills. Unfortunately the technology just isn't there yet to have the important combo of color AND strength. For the moment I'm hoping that I could create custom minis comparable to the plastic offerings from major companies-- reasonably durable, well-detailed, and ready to paint.

[Emmerask]

Just create a "custom" file format and create a conversion tool that makes a whatever format 3d printers actually use.

the custom filetype could for example just be the normal filetype (for the printer) only with a text at the beginning "this is a custom filetype" or create a random sequence based on the filename or encrypts it.

The "conversion" tool then just deletes that from the file and its a useable file for the printer again ^^

It really is no problem at all, the main problem is the 3d designer part which really is not easy to program, especially if it should be easy to use but still allows lots of customization ^^

[NichG]

I wouldn't worry too much about people trying to steal the model files. The amount of effort you could put into making it absolutely secure would dwarf the amount of effort you would put into your actual business, and it'd be a marginal savings on your part. If, e.g., one out of a hundred users steals a model and prints it themselves its basically just a 1% reduction in sales. If you just don't go to any effort to make the models downloadable or easily readable to your customers, its probably enough to discourage casual grabs.

Anything where the user gets to see a 3d model of their character can be stolen since that 3d data has to be passed to their graphics card so they can see it in the first place. There is software that will grab geometry from the pipeline and save it. You could be sneaky and put hidden holes/etc in the model that would need to be patched up to make it printable, but I would only bother with that kind of thing if you found that a way of nabbing your models had become common and standardized.

[Tyndmyr]

Yup, this is exactly the problem. :smallsmile: It would take a huge amount of money up frotn to get the hardware and software in place, but at least a demo version would be necessary for a Kickstarter campaign. I wouldn't expect people to pledge money for something like this sight unseen. I'm thinking that the best course would be to put together a very simple demo character creator and use it to print a couple of figures, possibly via a printing service like Shapeways-- just to show that it could be done, to have some examples, etc. Then raise money with a Kickstarter to flesh out the character creator, make more options, and buy a printer. Still not cheap, but at least I wouldn't have to pay for everything before trying to raise funds.

Dropped about $1300 on mine, and another $300 on plastic, to get you ballpark figures. Milkshape, the software I prefer, ran only $25.

Cubify offers an API for software...it's definitely a route to go if you want to market custom minis. There's a few various customization apps out there already, and as they tend to publicize them on their website...win. Nothing ever wrong with free publicity.

One word of advice, though. Do your test prints on the kind of machine you intend to use. Not all printers are equally capable...hell, prints won't even look the same in all materials, necessarily. Just because something prints in plastic at Shapeways doesn't mean it'll print equally well in stainless...or even a different type of plastic. I've downloaded some mini models that came out as garbage on my printer, despite having absolutely no trouble printing anything modeled for it.


I don't know much about web security, though, so I don't know what the odds are that somebody would come up with a way to steal the output. One way of combating this is to attempt to keep prices down so that printing a stolen model via Shapeways or similar wouldn't even be much cheaper than ordering it legitimately. Then you just have to worry about people with their own 3d printers...

I seriously wouldn't worry about that. Most people with the chops to hack webapps probably can just make a basic 3d model, if they care. The vast majority of people don't have their own 3d printers, anyway.


Thanks for your thoughts on pricing, as well. I believe that doing full-color prints would be the real "killer app" that would appeal to people like me who love custom minis but don't have painting skills. Unfortunately the technology just isn't there yet to have the important combo of color AND strength. For the moment I'm hoping that I could create custom minis comparable to the plastic offerings from major companies-- reasonably durable, well-detailed, and ready to paint.

Meh. I'm not bothering with multi-color. I like having ridiculous strength, and games workshop has made giant piles of money without painting their models. Don't see it as a problem.

[toapat]

Meh. I'm not bothering with multi-color. I like having ridiculous strength, and games workshop has made giant piles of money without painting their models. Don't see it as a problem.

Part of the selling point of those nickle figurines is that they become your life's work

on the other hand, id prefer if some of the models didnt have such fine details as to make the casual person incapable of painting them well.

[Tyndmyr]

Part of the selling point of those nickle figurines is that they become your life's work

on the other hand, id prefer if some of the models didnt have such fine details as to make the casual person incapable of painting them well.

Accomplishing "less detail" is definitely possible. Personally, I plan to take a slightly different style than GW...don't get me wrong, their models are great for what they are, but they really, really rely on tons of detail + drybrushing for everything, and many of the armies are really hard to do in a nice "everything is shiny, colorful and new" way. They've got grim and gritty locked down, tho. =)

[toapat]

Accomplishing "less detail" is definitely possible. Personally, I plan to take a slightly different style than GW...don't get me wrong, their models are great for what they are, but they really, really rely on tons of detail + drybrushing for everything, and many of the armies are really hard to do in a nice "everything is shiny, colorful and new" way. They've got grim and gritty locked down, tho. =)

Im not saying have less detail, just have less Fine detail so that those who dont wish to enter the culture can actually have a life after painting one of the figurines

[Tyndmyr]

Right, things like scales and such. That's fine. Bigger things like folds in clothing and so on you'll want to have to keep some realism, but the teensy niches you need to rely on very detailed drybrushing/inking for, I'll probably avoid.

That said, I'm going more for modular terrain myself. I've got kind of a lot of minis at the moment, and thanks to the recent Bones kickstarter, will be getting quite a lot more. However, I really have yet to find a modular lock-together terrain set I'm really happy with. So, that's under construction. Locking is actually entirely completed, I've got that working perfectly, now to model all of the things.

[toapat]

Right, things like scales and such. That's fine. Bigger things like folds in clothing and so on you'll want to have to keep some realism, but the teensy niches you need to rely on very detailed drybrushing/inking for, I'll probably avoid.

That said, I'm going more for modular terrain myself. I've got kind of a lot of minis at the moment, and thanks to the recent Bones kickstarter, will be getting quite a lot more. However, I really have yet to find a modular lock-together terrain set I'm really happy with. So, that's under construction. Locking is actually entirely completed, I've got that working perfectly, now to model all of the things.

Settlers of Catan? seems to fit your requirements, expecially the chest version

[Tyndmyr]

Settlers of Catan? seems to fit your requirements, expecially the chest version

Great game, and I do own the collectors edition in the wooden chest and what not...but it's not especially good for dungeon crawling style terrain, and it doesn't lock together(though again, I'm fixing that too). On the other hand, I could see you using it to map at a hex-level.

[toapat]

Great game, and I do own the collectors edition in the wooden chest and what not...but it's not especially good for dungeon crawling style terrain, and it doesn't lock together(though again, I'm fixing that too). On the other hand, I could see you using it to map at a hex-level.

with a 3D printer, some models, and a minor tweek to the edge, you could probably pump out a physical Worldmap for your players to see and marvel at

[eepop]

Yeah, the security concern was mainly a "Don't freely give out the model files" tip.

It would be very easy when programming it to not think of the implications, and just give them the file to be uploaded to your buy process. Some folks are going to whine if the creator is web only because they want to play with it when they are offline. A programmer could definitely set out to accomodate those people without realizing its opening up your business to be easily stolen from.

Its not hard at all to work around when you realize you need to. Its just also not hard to make the mistake if you aren't thinking about it.