We need another Timmy!

[Honest Tiefling]

I know that another player in the game I am in is going to have a child PC. Now, on the one hand I think this is pretty hilarious, but on the other, the two current PCs are pretty 'good-ish' and probably aren't going to be 100% okay with sending a little girl into battle with nothing but a dress and her teddy bear.

My questions are thus: Should I suggest to the player basic ideas so that our PCs won't keep trying to dump the character at an orphanage (The PCs are headed to a city, so there ought to be some), or just leave it be? And if the former, what would convince two adventurers to keep a kid around while fighting pirates?

The PC is likely to be a drow witch. In this setting, drow are mistrusted, but my PC is a tiefling so the party likely won't care so much.

[Crasical]

Isn't that really the player's job, to find ways to integrate with the party?

[Honest Tiefling]

Probably, but this guy is pretty cool out of game, and a good RPer. I can honestly live with a few quirks if it means another good RPer to the table, I just want to know how to deal with this quirk better.

Also, I dunno if the DM told him about the other two PCs yet.

[marcielle]

If she had a classic drow upbringing prior to this she's more battleready than many topside soldiers lol. And besides, NEVER underestimate little girls and their teddybears.
http://oracleoflegends.com/Public/champions/anniebig.jpg

[LadyLexi]

League of Legends get.

Yeah, where did you find rules for age categories under adult?

[Feralventas]

IDK if it's what they used, but there's a "Young" template in PF. -4 Str and Constitution, +4 Size modifier to Dex. And you're 1 size smaller, so all the pro's and con's that come with Small size.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Courtesy of Pathfinder! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1)

Looking it over, for a player, -4 to CON hurts a bunch. I'd take the trade on Str/Dex in a heartbeat, though.

[marcielle]

It ESPECIALLY hurts in conjunction with the fact Drow naturally take a -2 to Con. However, the template is at -1 CR. Since CR more or less equates to LA in PF, I'd say ask the DM is she can be either 1 level ahead or a Noble. Nobles will still be squish but the ton of buffs ought to juuust about make up for the fact she's rolling hp at -3.

[prufock]

I know that another player in the game I am in is going to have a child PC.

How young? The human "adulthood" age in D&D is 15, I'm not sure about Tieflings. That's already pretty young, but if he's thinking 8 years old or something, I can see how that would be problematic for the rest of the party. There are some things you can do to keep them involved, though, depending on the kid's background.

1. "The Chosen One" - An overused trope, but the kid may have been singled out within their culture as special in some way. Changing the fate of the tribe, great power, whatever you like. Has to be worked into the story somehow, though, and may not fit with your campaign.
2. "The Curbstomp." Their introduction to the girl can have them seeing her in some sort of trouble, threatened by savage humanoids or something. They rush in to save her; as they are doing so, she unleashes some spells that wipe out whatever is threatening her. As she tags along, she'll display her usefulness.
3. "The Reincarnation." Some shaman or whatever present at her birth sees signs that she is a reincarnated form of some great warrior, leader, or other important figure.
4. "The Offspring." She claims to be the child of one of the PCs, and her other parent has died.

In any situation, they will probably be protective of the kid.

[The Dark Fiddler]

League of Legends get.

Yeah, where did you find rules for age categories under adult?


IDK if it's what they used, but there's a "Young" template in PF. -4 Str and Constitution, +4 Size modifier to Dex. And you're 1 size smaller, so all the pro's and con's that come with Small size.


Courtesy of Pathfinder! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/simple-template-young-cr-1)

Looking it over, for a player, -4 to CON hurts a bunch. I'd take the trade on Str/Dex in a heartbeat, though.

I don't know if anybody cares about anecdotes, but when I played a child character in my friend's campaign, he let me just be a small-sized human with the ability modifiers of a halfling. The logic being that if he's going to be a hero, he's going to be incredibly extraordinary already, so why saddle him with terrible ability modifiers?

[Prime32]

IDK if it's what they used, but there's a "Young" template in PF. -4 Str and Constitution, +4 Size modifier to Dex. And you're 1 size smaller, so all the pro's and con's that come with Small size.Silly Pathfinder giving undead casters +4 Dex and an AC bonus for a negative LA.

There's already a perfectly good child template (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfling.htm) in 3.5. PF even has (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/childlike) support (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/pass-for-human) for it, oddly enough.

[Telonius]

I know that another player in the game I am in is going to have a child PC. Now, on the one hand I think this is pretty hilarious, but on the other, the two current PCs are pretty 'good-ish' and probably aren't going to be 100% okay with sending a little girl into battle with nothing but a dress and her teddy bear.

My questions are thus: Should I suggest to the player basic ideas so that our PCs won't keep trying to dump the character at an orphanage (The PCs are headed to a city, so there ought to be some), or just leave it be? And if the former, what would convince two adventurers to keep a kid around while fighting pirates?

Big eyes, maybe a little bit of a tear... "Please don't leave me." If they hesitate, throw a tantrum. ("Tantrum" should include display of magical ability).

If they actually manage to drop her off at an orphanage, the next day they hear about the orphanage mysteriously burning down. A few minutes later they see her happily skipping down the road with her teddy bear. "Hiya!"

[Keneth]

Since CR more or less equates to LA in PF
I've never quite understood why everyone was so happy to ditch the multiclassing xp penalty in 3.5 which was RAW (and kinda made sense), and yet everyone and their familiar wants to slap LA on stronger races in PF which is not RAW (although it is officially suggested that CR be treated in a similar manner). Both are horrible abominations that should be purged out of the system with dragonfire. :smallbiggrin:

[Kish]

Because they don't care which one's RAW and which one isn't?

[Keneth]

Not the point, both are equally bad. No one wants to be penalized for playing the kind of character they want. :smallsmile:

[sonofzeal]

One penalizes anything remotely outside the box, and a lot of inside-the-box stuff too. There's a lot of PrCs that can be seriously difficult to get into without eating a significant multiclass penalty, unless you're playing Human... and seeing how Human is generally considered one of the best races anyway, that's merely aggravating a legitimate balance concern.

The other also penalizes unusual builds... or rather, doesn't make them game-shatteringly more powerful than traditional options anymore. Yes, 3.5's LAs were generally excessive. But the alternative of claiming that a six-HD Minotaur is equivalent to a 4th level Fighter is even worse, just in the other direction.

[ahenobarbi]

You know... that drow "kid" could be 50 years old (they reach adulthood @110 years). And you say the player can rollplay... so I don't think there will be a problem ("Oh shut up, your grannie. But then she graduated from elementary school and stopped sprouting nonsense." or something).

[Keneth]

There's a lot of PrCs that can be seriously difficult to get into without eating a significant multiclass penalty
Generally only from an optimizer's point of view, which always kinda rubbed me the wrong way to be honest. Am I supposed to make it easier for players to break the game? :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, if you're gonna let your players use a specific character concept, then you shouldn't slap them over the head with penalties. Imbalance can be handled much more elegantly with a modicum of effort on the GM's part.

[Urpriest]

Taking your post somewhat more literally, I could see the "good" folks balking at putting this drow child in an orphanage if they hear what they did to their last orphanage...

[lt_murgen]

Generally only from an optimizer's point of view, which always kinda rubbed me the wrong way to be honest. Am I supposed to make it easier for players to break the game? :smallbiggrin:

But yeah, if you're gonna let your players use a specific character concept, then you shouldn't slap them over the head with penalties. Imbalance can be handled much more elegantly with a modicum of effort on the GM's part.

I do respectfully disagree, at least with the multiclass XP penalty. I think it is a useful consideration when creating characters, particularly if you are role heavy. Take the classic mage/cleric combo. How does one manage to take time for magical studies while also attending to religious duties. All too often, people hand-wave such details with statements like "I do my normal morning routine." And that is fine, for play-speed's sake. But as a character, there has to be some difference between someone who is splitting their time between religious and arcane stuidies and someone who is devoted to one or another. That mechanic is the XP penalty, and it makes sense.


Now, as for the child, I say one of the best things a DM can do to make a group want to keep a child in the group is to "pay" them for it.
In each combat encounter, if the child is unharmed, everyone gets bonus XP.
If they find useful ways to utilize the character in non-combat situations, bonus XP or freebies.

For example, the party is travelling through some rural area and spy a farm to stop at for the night. The farmer may charge the rough and tumble group a few coppers each to sleep in the barn. But if the party can convince the farmers that it is for the child's health they need a place to stay, then its free.

[sonofzeal]

Generally only from an optimizer's point of view, which always kinda rubbed me the wrong way to be honest. Am I supposed to make it easier for players to break the game? :smallbiggrin:
No.

PrCs exist to be taken - taking one does not make you an "optimizer", as if there's a firm line there; everyone makes choices they think will work for their character, it's just level of success that varies.

And PrCs that require disparate skillsets, like Eldritch Knight, Mystic Theurge, and Arcane Trickster (just for three Core examples) have a tendency to cause non-negligible xp penalties. And let me tell you, being a level behind on top of having an unfavourable multiclass? Yeah, that's frustrating from anyone's point of view. Unless your point of view is "yaaay my character is kind of useless and dying a lot, everything's exactly how I wanted it!" In which case I'd posit that you're in the harsh minority.


But yeah, if you're gonna let your players use a specific character concept, then you shouldn't slap them over the head with penalties. Imbalance can be handled much more elegantly with a modicum of effort on the GM's part.
LA is a reasonable approach. Heck, just going off HD instead of CR is a reasonable approach, which in PF amounts to exactly the same thing a lot of the time. Give Minotar LA+2, and it's in line with its HD and more balanced against a Fighter of the same ECL. I really don't see what your issue is.

[Qwertystop]

If they actually manage to drop her off at an orphanage, the next day they hear about the orphanage mysteriously burning down. A few minutes later they see her happily skipping down the road with her teddy bear. "Hiya!"

Yes. This.

[Honest Tiefling]

I don't know if the DM is applying the child template or not, I suspect not so we don't get the double whammy of allowing the child in combat, and then subsequently letting the child die. I think our DM will start handing out evil points if this happens again.

If the child becomes an undead to utilize the template, its likely not going to end well. Also if the child keeps burning things down, I think our PCs are perfectly willing to ship her off to a temple or jail. Again, goodish (Chaotic Neutral to be exact) PCs, not ones okay with pyromania and likely to let their employers deal with crazy magic if it is dangerous.

As for age, younger then 14, I assume 10-ish?



1. "The Chosen One" - An overused trope, but the kid may have been singled out within their culture as special in some way. Changing the fate of the tribe, great power, whatever you like. Has to be worked into the story somehow, though, and may not fit with your campaign.
2. "The Curbstomp." Their introduction to the girl can have them seeing her in some sort of trouble, threatened by savage humanoids or something. They rush in to save her; as they are doing so, she unleashes some spells that wipe out whatever is threatening her. As she tags along, she'll display her usefulness.
3. "The Reincarnation." Some shaman or whatever present at her birth sees signs that she is a reincarnated form of some great warrior, leader, or other important figure.
4. "The Offspring." She claims to be the child of one of the PCs, and her other parent has died.


1) I will suggest this one to the player if he is out of ideas, but doesn't want to abandon the character.
2) Works, I guess, but the characters might be more concerned with maturity then ability, since they did just fight a demon.
3) Also works! Might appeal to the player.
4) I don't think tieflings or half-elves make drow, and I know for certain my PC can't be the father. I am unsure if I want the barbarian reproducing...

Thanks for the help, everyone! Also, how justify a kid morally, if the said child seems to be battle hardend for some reason?

[Qwertystop]

I suggest this class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218981). Refluff if you really think you need to.

[bigstipidfighte]

Think of a reason for your PC to be OK with this. Since t's your character, this shouldn't be too much of a problem. Then, if anyone else makes a fuss about sending a little girl into combat, take them aside and talk to them one-on-one about their grievances.

Remind the big, strong fighter that he routinely lets a bumbling nerd accompany him into dungeons filled with deadly traps that could snap his poor little nerd-spine, which is probably even weaker than the girl's since it's bent from carrying all those books around.

Point out to the cosmically powerful mage that if it's ok to bring along a caveman with a pointy stick when matching spells with a demon, it's certainly ok to bring a girl who actually knows how to use magic to defend herself.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Big eyes, maybe a little bit of a tear... "Please don't leave me." If they hesitate, throw a tantrum. ("Tantrum" should include display of magical ability).

If they actually manage to drop her off at an orphanage, the next day they hear about the orphanage mysteriously burning down. A few minutes later they see her happily skipping down the road with her teddy bear. "Hiya!"

At that point, I'd probably be worried about what she was capable of if she had burned down an orphanage because she was bored, and just kill her. Okay, maybe not that far, since it could be a coincidence. But if she starts shooting fire spells, yeah, I'm investing in that Desert Wind stance as fast as possible.

[Qwertystop]

Think of a reason for your PC to be OK with this. Since t's your character, this shouldn't be too much of a problem. Then, if anyone else makes a fuss about sending a little girl into combat, take them aside and talk to them one-on-one about their grievances.

Remind the big, strong fighter that he routinely lets a bumbling nerd accompany him into dungeons filled with deadly traps that could snap his poor little nerd-spine, which is probably even weaker than the girl's since it's bent from carrying all those books around.

Point out to the cosmically powerful mage that if it's ok to bring along a caveman with a pointy stick when matching spells with a demon, it's certainly ok to bring a girl who actually knows how to use magic to defend herself.

Perspective win.