updated 6/29 scorpion's grasp + improved trip ... and equipment for them..

[animewatcha]

First off, No ToB or Incarnum. No alignment-evil based stuff. No build/feat suggestions please.

Okay, going by wording of scorpion's grasp and improved trip. and the following happen.

1. Initiate trip attempt
2. If touch attack is successful, regardless of success of trip attempt, i can initiate free grapple attempt via scorpion's grasp
3. if grapple is successful, deal unarmed damage
4. if trip is successful, resolve improved trip feat,
5. free action to release grapple
6. attack with +4 bonus due to prone, activate scorpion's grasp
7. if grapple is successful, deal unarmed damage
8. keep activating - free action release for more grapples

Basically, in one 'unarmed trip motion' one would be getting 2 x unarmed/grapple damage + damage from regular attack, within the span of one attack action. Is this allowed within the wording of the feats, etc.?

EQUIPMENT ONLY:

Assuming unarmored and no shield. What equipment grants bonuses to trip, grapple attempts, and str checks for these?

Update 6/29: Still taking suggestions of equipment. Please read through first page atleast since different order is actually needed. When responding, please account for the following new scenario added in.


Okay guys, thanks for the info. Time for a spin on this. I wanted to combine this with animal shen mantis' ( drag 319 ) Ability of Superior Trip. Which upon a successful trip attempt automatically deals unarmed damage. There is nothing in there stating that I can't get bonus attack from improved trip. So it would be like, trip+unarmed damage into 'bonus' attack.'

How would Superior trip figure into the grapple formula/order now?

[Mari01]

First off, No ToB or Incarnum. No alignment-evil based stuff. No build/feat suggestions please.

Okay, going by wording of scorpion's grasp and improved trip. and the following happen.

1. Initiate trip attempt
2. If touch attack is successful, regardless of success of trip attempt, i can initiate free grapple attempt via scorpion's grasp
3. if grapple is successful, deal unarmed damage
4. if trip is successful, resolve improved trip feat,
5. free action to release grapple
6. attack with +4 bonus due to prone, activate scorpion's grasp
7. if grapple is successful, deal unarmed damage
8. keep activating - free action release for more grapples

Basically, in one 'unarmed trip motion' one would be getting 2 x unarmed/grapple damage + damage from regular attack, within the span of one attack action. Is this allowed within the wording of the feats, etc.?

EQUIPMENT ONLY:

Assuming unarmored and no shield. What equipment grants bonuses to trip, grapple attempts, and str checks for these?

Escape from Grapple
You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s).

Costs a standard action to get out, unless you've got something to cut it down.

[animewatcha]

Wrong side. I asking as the 'grappler'. I hit to grapple them ( to deal damage via scorpion ) then free action to release them only to grapple them again ( to deal damage again via scorpion ) via hitting them again.

Also asking if scorpion can trigger offa a trip attempt ( touch ATTACK, regardless of resolvement of trippage ).

[theMycon]

You have to pin the opponent to voluntarily release them, though.

If you're just grappling, it doesn't matter who initiated the grapple, you must either use an attack attempt to make an opposed grapple check to leave the grapple, or a standard action to attempt an escape artist check to leave the grapple.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple (See the "If you're grappling" and "If you're pinning an opponent" sections).

[Curmudgeon]

Wrong side. I asking as the 'grappler'.
Except for starting a grapple, there aren't any "sides". All parties involved are simply grappling.
If You’re Grappling

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions.

[strider24seven]

First off, No ToB or Incarnum. No alignment-evil based stuff. No build/feat suggestions please.

Okay, going by wording of scorpion's grasp and improved trip. and the following happen.

1. Initiate trip attempt
2. If touch attack is successful, regardless of success of trip attempt, i can initiate free grapple attempt via scorpion's grasp
3. if grapple is successful, deal unarmed damage
4. if trip is successful, resolve improved trip feat,
5. free action to release grapple
6. attack with +4 bonus due to prone, activate scorpion's grasp
7. if grapple is successful, deal unarmed damage
8. keep activating - free action release for more grapples

Basically, in one 'unarmed trip motion' one would be getting 2 x unarmed/grapple damage + damage from regular attack, within the span of one attack action. Is this allowed within the wording of the feats, etc.?

EQUIPMENT ONLY:

Assuming unarmored and no shield. What equipment grants bonuses to trip, grapple attempts, and str checks for these?

This does not work the way you wrote it.
Scorpion's Grasp requires an unarmed attack. Tripping requires you to forgo that attack for a touch attack.

The actual sequence goes like this:

1) Initiate trip attempt
2) If you hit with #1, Resolve Trip attempt
3) If you are successful with #2, you get a free attack via Imp. Trip
4) If you hit with #3, you may initiate a grapple via Scorpion's Grasp.
5) If you are successful with #4, you may deal unarmed damage with Scorpion's Grasp
6) After #5, you may attempt a release as a free action.
7) If your opponent concedes after #6, you may attack again... otherwise you are stuck in the grapple and must attempt to escape or deal damage.

Please read the feat:
http://dndtools.eu/feats/sandstorm--85/scorpions-grasp--2524/

For suggestions... I would suggest 8 levels in Black Blood Cultist and then stack natural weapons. Then you deal damage with all of your natural weapons (including unarmed strike) every time you make a successful grapple check... including to initiate the grapple with Scorpion's Grasp.

[Curmudgeon]

The actual sequence goes like this:
...
6) After #5, you may attempt a release as a free action.
No, that's still another grapple check (rather than a free action), which you may make in place of an attack. Or you may use another grapple check to pin your opponent, and after 1 round may release the pinned foe as a free action.
Escape from Grapple

You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack.
...
Pin Your Opponent

You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below).
...
You may voluntarily release a pinned character as a free action; if you do so, you are no longer considered to be grappling that character (and vice versa).

[strider24seven]

No, that's still another grapple check (rather than a free action), which you may make in place of an attack. Or you may use another grapple check to pin your opponent, and after 1 round may release the pinned foe as a free action.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050308a



Curiously, the Player's Handbook says nothing about voluntarily relinquishing your hold on a foe, so here's a rule to cover that. You can release your foe as a free action. You are still considered to be grappling, however, unless your foe also decides to release you at same time. If your foe does not want to release you, you can escape by winning an opposed grapple check that you make instead of a melee attack.

When you and your foe release each other, one of you must go to a space adjacent to the space the two of you once shared. The movement provokes attacks of opportunity from foes who threaten the space the character leaves, but the movement doesn't count against the character's speed for the current turn. If you made a successful opposed grapple check to end the grapple, you decide who moves. If you both decide to release each other, make an opposed grapple check and the winner decides who moves.



Granted, not RAW, but it makes a good point even if you don't play with that fix.

[cagemarrow]

Scorpion's Grasp requires an unarmed attack. Tripping requires you to forgo that attack for a touch attack.

I don't think it does because it allows you to use an unarmed, light, or one handed weapon in the feat itself to start the attack, and if you are a monk you don't even need a free hand available to do the unarmed strike. Besides the touch attack for a trip attempt is specifically mentioned to be an unarmed attack, unless using a tripping weapon.

I've considered adding this to my current character with paired Kusari Gama's for his weapons and doing this with two weapon fighting to swing around the battle field between enemies. As light one handed reach weapons they are very synergistic with this build, add aptitude onto them both and take the boomerang daze feat and you can daze opponents with the initial strikes as well. :smallbiggrin:

[strider24seven]

I don't think it does because it allows you to use an unarmed, light, or one handed weapon in the feat itself to start the attack, and if you are a monk you don't even need a free hand available to do the unarmed strike. Besides the touch attack for a trip attempt is specifically mentioned to be an unarmed attack, unless using a tripping weapon.





If your attack with an unarmed strike or a light or one-handed melee weapon hits...




Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target


Unarmed Strike =/= Unarmed Melee Touch attack

Unarmed Melee Touch Attack is not an unarmed strike, light, or 1-handed weapon, and thus can't be used in conjunction with Scorpion's Grasp.

However, if you are using the Rules Compendium, you may treat Touch Spells as light weapons (which qualifies them for use with Weapon Finesse)- afb atm and can't provide exact quote so if someone wants to you can hunt it down.

[cagemarrow]

In that case I think it could still work by moving the order around a bit.

Succeed on the 1st Attack and Trip, use free attack with +4 to hit to do damage and initiate the grapple, do unarmed damage. Attempt to end the grapple as a free action, target can choose not to release you. If released use any remaining attacks to attack again, grapple, do unarmed strike damage, release until out of attacks.

[strider24seven]

Right.

The idea is sound (and very creative I might add) but the order just needed to be switched around a bit.

[Mari01]

Why exactly are we going through all these grapple checks instead of just tripping and pummeling? Why give yourself the extra chance of failure?

[Darrin]

Assuming unarmored and no shield. What equipment grants bonuses to trip, grapple attempts, and str checks for these?

Bracers of Armor +1 with the Gnashing property (+1 enhancement, Champions of Ruin): Automatically bites whatever the wearer is grappling for 1d6 damage. (Acidic property in MIC does a bit better damage, but only triggers if you're grappled for a complete full round.)

Bracers of Lightning (11000 GP, MIC): Swift action unlimited use, all melee and ranged attacks gain the shock property for 1 round.

Brawler's Gauntlets (1000 GP, MIC): Swift action 3/day provides a +2 untyped bonus on grapple checks and damage rolls for 1 round.

Burnoose of 1001 Thorns (3000 GP, MIC): Swift action 1/day for 5 rounds, +1d6 damage whenever your opponent has to make a grapple check that isn't an escape roll.

Cloak of Quills (2500 GP, MIC): Free action 5/day, +1d6 damage whenever you make a grapple check, although your opponent(s) get a DC 16 Ref save to negate.

Dragonfang Guantlets (8610 GP, MIC): +2 enhancement bonus to Strength, Improved Sunder 3/day, and allows you to put enhancements, augment crystals, etc. on your unarmed strikes.

Fanged Ring (10000 GP, Dragon Magic): Improved Natural Attack for your unarmed strikes, and does 1 Con damage on a crit.

Gauntlets of the Talon (4000 GP, MIC): Costs a feat to pick up True Believer, but then works like a Monk's Belt, provides two claw attacks, allows you to treat your unarmed strikes as slashing weapons, and provides a +4 untyped bonus on grapple checks.

Gloves of the Titan's Grip (14000 GP, MIC): Auto-activates 3/day whenever you initiate a grapple, lasts 7 rounds, and provides a +8 enhancement bonus on grapple checks.

Necklace of Natural Weapons/Attacks (600+ GP, Savage Species/WotC website (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a)): Enchant your unarmed strikes.

Phylactery of Change (11200 GP, A&EG): All-day polymorph up to 7HD... oh, why hello Mr. Remorhaz!

Porcupine Elixir (800 GP, MIC): Consumable, but fairly cheap, and lasts 12 hours. +1d6 damage on a successful grapple check, and other than quaffing the elixir, no activation huhu to worry about.

Ring of Lightning Flashes (11500 GP, MIC): Swift action 3/day, deals 5d6 electricity damage to all creatures within 5', no save if you're in physical contact (such as grappling) with the target.

Ring of the Viper (8000 GP, Serpent Kingdoms): +1 unarmed damage, and adds poison (DC 11, 1d6 Con) to all your unarmed attacks.

Spare Hand (12000 GP, MIC): Among other things, provides a +2 competence bonus to grapple checks.

[strider24seven]

Why exactly are we going through all these grapple checks instead of just tripping and pummeling? Why give yourself the extra chance of failure?

Because the grapple is free on top of the tripping and pummeling.
And when you have Black Blood Cultist levels...

[St Fan]

The basic premise doesn't work. Going by the description of Scorpion's Grasp:

If your attack with an unarmed strike or a light or one-handed melee weapon hits, the strike deals normal damage and you can attempt to start a grapple as a free action;

A trip attack isn't an unarmed strike/melee weapon hit. By RAW, only an attack doing damage can then lead to a grapple attempt as free action with Scorpion's Grasp.

[strider24seven]

The basic premise doesn't work. Going by the description of Scorpion's Grasp:

If your attack with an unarmed strike or a light or one-handed melee weapon hits, the strike deals normal damage and you can attempt to start a grapple as a free action;

A trip attack isn't an unarmed strike/melee weapon hit. By RAW, only an attack doing damage can then lead to a grapple attempt as free action with Scorpion's Grasp.

That's why you have Improved trip.
Read the title.

[St Fan]

That's why you have Improved trip.
Read the title.

I have reread the description of Improved Trip, and I have reread the first post of this thread, and I only managed to get even more confused.

I don't see how, in any way or form, the premise described in the first post would work, or be allowed by a DM (which is pretty much the same thing).

I can see using Scorpion's Grasp along with the additional attack that Improved Trip allow when you manage to trip an opponent, yes. But what the first post fully describe plain and simply does. not. work.

2. If touch attack is successful, regardless of success of trip attempt, i can initiate free grapple attempt via scorpion's grasp

Here is the part that is plain wrong. You can't use the free grapple with a trip attempt, since it isn't an attack inflicting damage, as described in Scorpion's Grasp.

[cagemarrow]

I think you missed the part at the end of Improved Trip that allows you to take a free melee attack on the target that you just tripped. This is what triggers the grapple from Scorpion's grasp.

[Curmudgeon]

I think you missed the part at the end of Improved Trip that allows you to take a free melee attack on the target that you just tripped. This is what triggers the grapple from Scorpion's grasp.
Except, as St Fan correctly points out, that's not what the OP stated. You have to succeed on the trip attempt, and succeed in dealing damage on the bonus attack afforded by Improved Trip, in order to use Scorpion's Grasp. Succeeding on the initial touch attack alone is insufficient.

[cagemarrow]

And that's why I suggested the following order for the combat instead. As far as I can tell it works, but you do have to resolve the trip completely first.


Succeed on the 1st Attack and Trip, use free attack with +4 to hit to do damage and initiate the grapple, do unarmed damage. Attempt to end the grapple as a free action, target can choose not to release you. If released use any remaining attacks to attack again, grapple, do unarmed strike damage, release until out of attacks.

It's an interesting combat strategy that allows you to stack on extra damage than you normally would, but it definitely has drawbacks and would need to be used wisely.

[St Fan]

Okay, that sequence works better. Though I wonder if you have to be prone yourself to grapple a prone opponent. The rules aren't very explicit about it. If you don't, that's an interesting strategy (although feat-costly, even for a monk).

[animewatcha]

Ever seen some wrestling shows? Where one person is 'prone' while the other is applying a submission hold while still standing ( aka 'grappling.' ) Like, Sting with scorpion stinger.

Okay guys, thanks for the info. Time for a spin on this. I wanted to combine this with animal shen mantis' ( drag 319 ) Ability of Superior Trip. Which upon a successful trip attempt automatically deals unarmed damage. There is nothing in there stating that I can't get bonus attack from improved trip. So it would be like, trip+unarmed damage into 'bonus' attack.'

How would Superior trip figure into the grapple formula/order/mayhem now?

[Flickerdart]

Okay, that sequence works better. Though I wonder if you have to be prone yourself to grapple a prone opponent. The rules aren't very explicit about it. If you don't, that's an interesting strategy (although feat-costly, even for a monk).
You can just sort of stand on them I guess?

[Fitz10019]

... that's still another grapple check (rather than a free action)...

Except that the last paragraph of Scorpion's Grasp allows you to hold your grappling target in your off hand, and then you are no longer considered grappling. At that point, you could drop 'him' as a free action. [Note, this requires that the grappling target is one or more sizes smaller than you.]

I'm assuming this is the basis of OP's step 5.

[Flickerdart]

Except that the last paragraph of Scorpion's Grasp allows you to hold your grappling target in your off hand, and then you are no longer considered grappling. At that point, you could drop 'him' as a free action. [Note, this requires that the grappling target is one or more sizes smaller than you.]

I'm assuming this is the basis of OP's step 5.
Yeah, but you are eating a -20 penalty to do so, which means that your Grapple check will need to be even higher than normal to have a hope of succeeding.

[Fitz10019]

Yeah, but you are eating a -20 penalty to do so, which means that your Grapple check will need to be even higher than normal to have a hope of succeeding.

If you continue to hold them, yes, but not if you drop them, resetting the whole process.