Gurren Lagann ending

[SlashRunner]

So, I just finished watching Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, and I thought the ending was really well done, but it just left me... unsatisfied

Spoilered because... spoilers...
Mainly because of Nia's death. Now I understand that it was deep and emotional, and it was extremely well done in that respect. However, I felt that it really didn't fit with the rest of the show for multiple reasons.
First of all, I felt that such a depressing ending doesn't fit with the hot-blooded optimism of the show. Honestly, I felt that an episode of Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann should not make me feel this depressed. I know there was a precedent for that due to Kamina's death, but that wasn't the last episode. Considering how the rest of the show went, I really think it deserved a happy ending.
Secondly, WHY did it happen to Simon? Of all the characters, he had by far the worst ending, despite being the protagonist and one of the most likeable characters in the show.
Third, it's heavily implied (at least how I saw it) that Simon has enough Spiral energy to bring people back from the dead. Honestly, I think his excuse for not doing that was horribly weak. Unlike most fiction, there is also no suggestion that being resurrected would cause any kind of emotional trauma to the resurrectee. So why not?
Fourth, I think that Nia's death really distracted from the epic-ness of the final fight scene. While it was truly epic, it will be overwritten by memories of Nia's death, which is REALLY not in keeping with the rest of the show. Depressing character deaths (That weren't even heroic sacrifices) should not overwrite epic giant robot battles.

Honestly I would have been much happier had her disappearance at the wedding been a complete surprise to both of them. After the scene at the wedding, it would cut away to Simon traveling the world a few years in the future, searching for a way to bring her back with some kind of badass monologue about never giving up and doing the impossible.

Wall of text over. Now don't get me wrong, it was a fantastic episode and I loved the series, but I just really think it should have panned out differently...

[Jayngfet]

So, I just finished watching Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, and I thought the ending was really well done, but it just left me... unsatisfied

Spoilered because... spoilers...
Mainly because of Nia's death. Now I understand that it was deep and emotional, and it was extremely well done in that respect. However, I felt that it really didn't fit with the rest of the show for multiple reasons.
First of all, I felt that such a depressing ending doesn't fit with the hot-blooded optimism of the show. Honestly, I felt that an episode of Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann should not make me feel this depressed. I know there was a precedent for that due to Kamina's death, but that wasn't the last episode. Considering how the rest of the show went, I really think it deserved a happy ending.
Secondly, WHY did it happen to Simon? Of all the characters, he had by far the worst ending, despite being the protagonist and one of the most likeable characters in the show.
Third, it's heavily implied (at least how I saw it) that Simon has enough Spiral energy to bring people back from the dead. Honestly, I think his excuse for not doing that was horribly weak. Unlike most fiction, there is also no suggestion that being resurrected would cause any kind of emotional trauma to the resurrectee. So why not?
Fourth, I think that Nia's death really distracted from the epic-ness of the final fight scene. While it was truly epic, it will be overwritten by memories of Nia's death, which is REALLY not in keeping with the rest of the show. Depressing character deaths (That weren't even heroic sacrifices) should not overwrite epic giant robot battles.

Honestly I would have been much happier had her disappearance at the wedding been a complete surprise to both of them. After the scene at the wedding, it would cut away to Simon traveling the world a few years in the future, searching for a way to bring her back with some kind of badass monologue about never giving up and doing the impossible.

Wall of text over. Now don't get me wrong, it was a fantastic episode and I loved the series, but I just really think it should have panned out differently...


Bringing her back would have set a precedent to use spiral energy for any personal reasons you wanted. It might be a good thing by itself but one thing would lead to another until everybody is coming back to life eventually, because why not? As Simon implies that'd just cause a whole bunch of problems for the up and comers of the next generation, since it's hard to get very far when all the positions are filled FOREVER. He had to work hard to KILL the last guy in the top spot and he didn't want that situation to repeat.

Not to mention the long term implications of Nia being ressurected. All the stuff Nia was made of wouldn't break down and become a part of the earth if she was still walking around, so if you keep more and more people around you'd eventually just keep more and more mass locked in. Spiral Energy can just make more ...but eventually that'd just lead to the Spiral Nemesis.

Simon had a day or two to talk with Nia and his friends about this before the wedding. It was obvious that the dead shouldn't come back, and if they just kept kicking reason to the curb it'd backlash on them eventually just like it did for Lordgenome and the Anti Spiral. Sometimes the hardest part isn't that you should keep going, sometimes the hardest part is knowing when to *stop*.

[SlashRunner]

*snip*

I agree that it was very well done and well reasoned, I just felt that it wasn't in keeping with the mood of the rest of the show at all. It would have been extremely easy to justify Nia not dying thanks to the death of the Anti-Spirals (she was originally made of normal matter, wasn't she? And the only difference in her was some kind of Anti-Spiral DNA. Also, she was in the company of some of the most ridiculous Spiral power users ever, if I understood correctly.) The moral about having to stop kicking logic to the curb could easily have been fit in in the context of the Spiral Nemesis.

[Mikeavelli]

I agree that it was very well done and well reasoned, I just felt that it wasn't in keeping with the mood of the rest of the show at all. It would have been extremely easy to justify Nia not dying thanks to the death of the Anti-Spirals (she was originally made of normal matter, wasn't she? And the only difference in her was some kind of Anti-Spiral DNA. Also, she was in the company of some of the most ridiculous Spiral power users ever, if I understood correctly.) The moral about having to stop kicking logic to the curb could easily have been fit in in the context of the Spiral Nemesis.

The point of the Spiral Nemesis is that it's the only foe that can't be beaten through MORE HOTBLOODED POWAAA because it's not a thing, it's literally the excess of MORE HOTBLOODED POWAAA!

From a storytelling exercise, it also shows the successful transition from childhood to adulthood (also known as successfully growing the **** up). Simon, like the Chief, and Lordgenome, and the Anti-spiral, finally matures into a responsible adult, reigning in himself instead of needing to be (unsuccessfully) reigned in by authority figures. However, he takes the additional step those others never took of trusting the younger generation to do what's right. Even though he has the power to be a tyrant, and force everyone to live his way, he chooses not to.

Because, for all the villainy the antagonists of the series committed, they had a pretty good point.. Being undisciplined really would have made their home village fall into ruin. Breaking through to the surface really did cost an incredible number of lives. The unchecked use of Spiral Power really would destroy all of existence.

And yes, it had to be Nia, his wife, someone he wanted to be with above all else. Anyone else and it wouldn't send the same message, especially since they've already lost plenty of other people.

[Lord Seth]

Because, for all the villainy the antagonists of the series committed, they had a pretty good point.. Being undisciplined really would have made their home village fall into ruin. Breaking through to the surface really did cost an incredible number of lives. The unchecked use of Spiral Power really would destroy all of existence.That's not for sure. That was just their speculation. It wasn't an unreasonable speculation, but it's still not certain.

[Soras Teva Gee]

This seems relevant to your feelings:

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj254/Legend_of_Light/Denial-1.jpg

And honestly while I understand thematically why they did it... it does not in the end change the arbitrary nature of the decision to enforce a bittersweet ending. There's nothing that demands that just because she' part Anti-Spiral or whatever she can't survive, the Anti-Spirals are really just Spirals after all. Not to mention its just kinda pulled out their at the last minute, on top of an already pushing it revelation to turn Nia evil for part 2 already.

And in my opinion the movie manages to make this both better and worse.

[Mando Knight]

That's not for sure. That was just their speculation. It wasn't an unreasonable speculation, but it's still not certain.

1) It's Gainax. Having a completely sensible ending is anathema to them.

2) The threat of the Spiral Nemesis was presented as something that powerful Spiral Warriors knew to be true when confronted with it, as the only possible outcome of eternally-escalating use of Spiral Power.

[Mikeavelli]

That's not for sure. That was just their speculation. It wasn't an unreasonable speculation, but it's still not certain.


The Spiral Nemesis is confirmed by both Simon and Lordgenome's biocomputer head. It really can't get much more "for sure" - beyond, y'know, it actually happening in series, which would be an even worse ending.

[SlashRunner]

I understand fully the reasoning and meaning behind Nia's death. However, I really feel like it just... it just doesn't fit. I think they could have easily gotten across the message without killing off Nia. Now, I understand that it might sound like I'm arguing from the point of personal attachment to the character, and I guess to a degree I am, but I also think that it's fair to say that they could have easily pulled it off much better without having Nia die.

[Mikeavelli]

How?

What else was there that he wanted more than anything that he could willingly give up?

[The Glyphstone]

How?

What else was there that he wanted more than anything that he could willingly give up?

Bringing Kamina back?

[Jayngfet]

Bringing Kamina back?

Yeah, but that'd be kind of random. Dude had been dead for most of the last decade and everyone else had already moved on. Nia's death was the most recent and still fresh.

[Mikeavelli]

Kamina's death was already resolved by Simon going through his mourning period, and the Kamina/Simon relationship was resolved by his (so awesome I squealed like a fangirl... Despite being a guy) appearance in the false reality.

Simon has already come to terms with that death, it wouldn't have nearly the impact as the woman he loves right now dying.

[Soras Teva Gee]

How?

What else was there that he wanted more than anything that he could willingly give up?

Here's the thing. YES Simon should not have tried to bring her back and so forth, as there is a morally responsible line in there about the use of Spiral Power to be had.

HOWEVER this actually has exactly and precisely nothing to do with the enforced randomness of Nia's death. She died entirely because the writers decided the story couldn't end completely happily. Basically the whole point of how Simon should have dealt with it is an entirely separate issue.

Now I do think they had a valid thematic reason for killing Nia, it keeps the story grounded so that even going beyond the impossible has limits to what you can achieve. But they miffed the delivery of it by having it as an evil cackling revelation of the villain and chocking it up to some ill conceived cause. That you really shouldn't think about too much. Personally were I doing it I might make it Lordgenomes fault, and have Nia already knowing she is only going to have a short time when part 2 starts... then get nabbed by the Anti-Spirals. You can mount a couple of rifles over the mantle and have the same basic result.

And make the 'moral' a bit more natural. Though doesn't change that we only know SP could bring back the dead because... they brought it up at the last second to weld on a message about responsibility. That the aesop is right does not change we'd not likely have considered it unless they brought it up.

[SlashRunner]

How?

What else was there that he wanted more than anything that he could willingly give up?

I understand why he didn't bring Nia back, but I'm questioning the need for her to die in the first place. And honestly, my objection is that, above all, it's a show about giant robots that run on fighting spirit and manliness and break logic if they believe in themselves. When I think about the climax of the show, the thing that should stick out most in my mind is the epic battle between Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann and the Anti-Spiral, not the depressing loss of the thing the (extremely likeable) protagonist loved the most. Maybe I'm different than everyone else in how I viewed the episode, but that's my take on it.

[Tengu_temp]

Simon didn't bring back Nia because, even if he could (which is not 100% guaranteed), it would take Spiral Power to do it. And if he brings her back, why not the loved ones of others, so many of whom died? So he either had to act in a selfish manner, or use more and more Spiral Power, bringing Spiral Nemesis closer and thus proving the Anti-Spiral was right all along.

One of TTGL's main themes is evolution, and an important part of evolution is things dying. It's tragic when someone close to you dies, but you have to accept it and move on instead of clinging to the past. This is one of the lessons of this story, and people who think the ending is a downer need to learn that lesson too.

Luckily nobody mentioned the "hobo Simon" thing yet, and good. Simon does not become a hobo in the end. He becomes a wandering wise master, doing what he always wanted - travel the surface. The trappings of civilization didn't make him happy, and he abandoned them.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Simon didn't bring back Nia because, even if he could (which is not 100% guaranteed), it would take Spiral Power to do it. And if he brings her back, why not the loved ones of others, so many of whom died? So he either had to act in a selfish manner, or use more and more Spiral Power, bringing Spiral Nemesis closer and thus proving the Anti-Spiral was right all along.

Except that's actually pretty much irrelevant.


Luckily nobody mentioned the "hobo Simon" thing yet, and good. Simon does not become a hobo in the end. He becomes a wandering wise master, doing what he always wanted - travel the surface. The trappings of civilization didn't make him happy, and he abandoned them.

I will direct you to about the only smart thing Jules says in Pulp Fiction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh-QWKGbm2Q), on the subject of Walking the Earth...

(Mind you I've got no real problem with Simon doing it, but he is absolutely a hobo. Is that a problem. Not to me. Probably a better hobo then president)

[Forum Explorer]

This seems relevant to your feelings:

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj254/Legend_of_Light/Denial-1.jpg

And honestly while I understand thematically why they did it... it does not in the end change the arbitrary nature of the decision to enforce a bittersweet ending. There's nothing that demands that just because she' part Anti-Spiral or whatever she can't survive, the Anti-Spirals are really just Spirals after all. Not to mention its just kinda pulled out their at the last minute, on top of an already pushing it revelation to turn Nia evil for part 2 already.

And in my opinion the movie manages to make this both better and worse.


This is honestly my biggest problem with it. Nia's death and conversion to Anti-Spiral both come completely out of nowhere. Had Nia just been dead when they showed up, or died in battle, or even assassinated at the very end by some psycho I could have handled it much better. But her nonsensical dissolving for pretty much zero reason was annoying and a blemish on an otherwise great ending.

[Mikeavelli]

above all, it's a show about giant robots that run on fighting spirit and manliness and break logic if they believe in themselves.

Above all, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is a coming of age story. Simon starts as a child, he grows, he changes, he matures, he overcomes obstacles that seemed impossible at the time. Everything revolves around that central theme. Giant robots, spiral power, action and adventure, these are the plot devices that bring that theme home.

Growing, changing, moving forward, never dwelling on the past, or fearing the future.

It's not that they can't have a happy ending, it's that the bittersweet ending legitimately adds something to the end of the series.

Also, relevant tvtropesl (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeathByNewberyMedal)

[Xondoure]

Simon didn't bring back Nia because, even if he could (which is not 100% guaranteed), it would take Spiral Power to do it. And if he brings her back, why not the loved ones of others, so many of whom died? So he either had to act in a selfish manner, or use more and more Spiral Power, bringing Spiral Nemesis closer and thus proving the Anti-Spiral was right all along.

One of TTGL's main themes is evolution, and an important part of evolution is things dying. It's tragic when someone close to you dies, but you have to accept it and move on instead of clinging to the past. This is one of the lessons of this story, and people who think the ending is a downer need to learn that lesson too.

Luckily nobody mentioned the "hobo Simon" thing yet, and good. Simon does not become a hobo in the end. He becomes a wandering wise master, doing what he always wanted - travel the surface. The trappings of civilization didn't make him happy, and he abandoned them.

Right so he's a rogue, vagrant, and vagabond... just not a hobo? :smalltongue:

[Soras Teva Gee]

It's not that they can't have a happy ending, it's that the bittersweet ending legitimately adds something to the end of the series.


You do have a valid point about the role it serves....

....the problem people have really is that the series bungled the delivery.

[Tengu_temp]

Except that's actually pretty much irrelevant.

The end of the freakin' world is irrelevant? Watch the show again. Overuse of Spiral Power will cause Spiral Nemesis. The only way to stop it is to use Spiral Power only when necessary.


I will direct you to about the only smart thing Jules says in Pulp Fiction (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yh-QWKGbm2Q), on the subject of Walking the Earth...

(Mind you I've got no real problem with Simon doing it, but he is absolutely a hobo. Is that a problem. Not to me. Probably a better hobo then president)

The problem is not that he's a hobo, the problem is that some people consider this a Bad End where he gets no reward for his heroics and is forgotten by all the ingrates. You know, like a war veteran who gets no recognition. And those people are wrong. Simon got what he wanted.

[Soras Teva Gee]

The end of the freakin' world is irrelevant? Watch the show again. Overuse of Spiral Power will cause Spiral Nemesis. The only way to stop it is to use Spiral Power only when necessary.


You apparently didn't read much of my posting in this thread since the end of the show is not itself really the issue here.

That it would be wrong to bring Nia back has no relevance to finding her death itself stupid an arbitrary. Now Gainax sold a fair bit of people on that with their terrible welding job, but it doesn't change that that line of reasoning is completely backwards and therfore irrelevant to whether Nia's death was properly conducted by the story.

It isn't. Nia dies for ill-conceived shallow reasons that don't ever quite make sense and come out of nowhere at the tail end of everything to cruelly jab the knife in. This on top of being treated rather terribly by the show since the second part began.

That after this, then and only then Simon remains responsible about the whole thing changes the previous paragraph by an amount of: zero.

(Of course that SP can bring back the dead ex nihilo is only introduced to be shot down in the next breath is in itself a separate problem. However I judge it the smaller of the two flies in the TTGL conclusion ointment. Neither really being relevant to the other)

[HandofShadows]

1) It's Gainax. Having a completely sensible happy ending is anathema to them.


Fixed that. :smallwink:

As others have put it, knowing when to step back and let others take you place can be more important than being the leader yourself. Look at George Washington. Some people wanted him to be King. And when elected President, he only served two terms (but could have served more if he had wanted). He did more for the USA by NOT taking power than he could by taking power. Simon is Earth's (The Universes?) GW in Gurren Lagann.

[Loki_42]

I'm going to echo the people who said it's Gainax. There only endings that I've been entirely satisfied with were FLCL and Panty and Stocking with Garterbelt, and those weren't really serious.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Oh jeez, thread necromancy from 200--

Wait, this post was just made yesterday?

[Forum Explorer]

The end of the freakin' world is irrelevant? Watch the show again. Overuse of Spiral Power will cause Spiral Nemesis. The only way to stop it is to use Spiral Power only when necessary.



Like Soras said the problem isn't with Nia dying and not coming back. The problem is with Nia dying at all and how little sense it made. It just happens randomly. Her whole conversion to Anti-Spiral is random and makes no sense. I mean you don't hear us complaining about Kanima's death and do you know why? Because his death made perfect sense. He died in battle not just dissolving into thin air for the flimsiest reason ever.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Like Soras said the problem isn't with Nia dying and not coming back. The problem is with Nia dying at all and how little sense it made. It just happens randomly. Her whole conversion to Anti-Spiral is random and makes no sense. I mean you don't hear us complaining about Kanima's death and do you know why? Because his death made perfect sense. He died in battle not just dissolving into thin air for the flimsiest reason ever.

You...you guys did watch the rest of the third and fourth arcs of the show, right? The part where every single Anti-Spiral anything falls apart/explodes when it's done for? Also the part where she was created by the Anti-Spiral just to **** with humanity and/or Lord Genome? And the part where the Anti-Spiral was destroyed and philosophically negatedso thoroughly everything they ever made just went poof?

I'm just saying, **** was led up to. This isn't Evangelion here.

[Seraph]

What gets me about the ending of Gurren Lagann is that Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi has almost literally the exact same ending setup, was made by the same studio, and yet both goes in the completely opposite direction and presents this as a perfectly legitimate and reasonable choice.

[Soras Teva Gee]

You...you guys did watch the rest of the third and fourth arcs of the show, right? The part where every single Anti-Spiral anything falls apart/explodes when it's done for? Also the part where she was created by the Anti-Spiral just to **** with humanity and/or Lord Genome? And the part where the Anti-Spiral was destroyed and philosophically negatedso thoroughly everything they ever made just went poof?

By that logic she should never have made it to the wedding and probably have splatted Simon by exploding right next to him.

No I don't really think willpower here helps, if she has enough to resist at all then why not resist fully?

And her being made by the Anti-Spiral was already a very stretched plot device from the start. I have issues with that not unrelated to this, since I would forgive them had her death been handled better.

Also so help me its been awhile but I seem to recall comments that Nia was actually chosen more or less random, and it was quite awhile before the Anti-Spiral even really noticed what was going on. I certainly don't care for the idea that with all of creation to suppress he has doesn't have better things to do with his time then to maybe on the off chance troll Lordgenome.

For all its whole 'invoke despair' style I think the idea that the AS was aware of events on Earth in a meaningful way before Team Gurren stopped the moon and came looking for it is an idea that raises many problems with the story. That sort of thing is fine when you are in your own super controlled dimension, but becomes stupid when you are taking an active notice and allowing the enemy to get that far. What's the point of having a "System" (implying automation) and a regent told not to break a condition if you are watching anyways?

[Forum Explorer]

You...you guys did watch the rest of the third and fourth arcs of the show, right? The part where every single Anti-Spiral anything falls apart/explodes when it's done for? Also the part where she was created by the Anti-Spiral just to **** with humanity and/or Lord Genome? And the part where the Anti-Spiral was destroyed and philosophically negatedso thoroughly everything they ever made just went poof?

I'm just saying, **** was led up to. This isn't Evangelion here.


You mean how every Anti-spiral thing blows up after it's blown up? Not exactly the same situation. Nothing tried to destroy Nia and she didn't blow up as much as fade away. Plus Nia being created by the Anti-Spirals was such a horrible retcon. Lord Genome had tons of kids. It's not like we saw all of them running around as Anti-Spirals.

[Nerd-o-rama]

retcon.

Yeah those don't happen in 26 episode shows.

Or 27 episode ones, whatever.


By that logic she should never have made it to the wedding and probably have splatted Simon by exploding right next to him.

And I understand that there's a difference between fading away and blowing up, but the damn special effects were the same (it was also explicitly stated in an earlier episode that AS Nia was made of the same stuff as the Mugann series and would, in fact, detonate into energy if killed). As for why she faded away instead of exploding, not that it actually matters, but I think if she could will herself into existence for a week, she could manage turning into harmless energy instead of explosive kibbles at the end too.

Also, I'm pretty sure all of the Anti-Spiral tech just dissolved when they were defeated, or at least all of it that was made of quantum hoobajooba. Nia just delayed it, in that case.


By that logic she should never have made it to the wedding and probably have splatted Simon by exploding right next to him.

Part of the point of the show is that willpower can do anything if you have an inexhaustible enough supply of it. The other part of the point is asking the question of what you should do with this infinite power, and Nia's fate is how she and Simon chose to answer this question.


And I was mistaken; I'd forgotten that Nia was a random chance existence who just happened to be so close to the heroes. It makes sense for the automated system to have a "human" messenger for maximum despair points, and her being related to Lord Genome and randomly meeting Simon is just one of those billion-to-one chances that happen all the time in this series.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Part of the point of the show is that willpower can do anything if you have an inexhaustible enough supply of it. The other part of the point is asking the question of what you should do with this infinite power, and Nia's fate is how she and Simon chose to answer this question.

The problem is that the more Nia resists the more dissonant her own fate becomes. If ups she got nabbed and is just some construct or whatever with Nia's face then how does she resist? And if she is in there somewhere to resist why can't she survive?

If you want to argue that Nia is somehow making a choice then she isn't doing anything responsible by giving in she's committing suicide for... because it can't be helped? Except it can? No the Spiral Nemesis angle doesn't even play into this because if Nia has SP then she is a Spiral and should be able to live. (Nevermind there a big difference between choosing to live and not choosing to bring back the dead. Really don't want to have that argument)

Of course if Nia isn't choosing then were back into it being rather heaped upon her arbitrarily. Its a real catch-22 for me here.

Nia's death just doesn't work. Its only justified because the story needed a bittersweet touch to the ending. Now I'd agree with the creators that this is in itself correct but they still didn't adequately lay the ground work for it in the final product.


And I was mistaken; I'd forgotten that Nia was a random chance existence who just happened to be so close to the heroes. It makes sense for the automated system to have a "human" messenger for maximum despair points, and her being related to Lord Genome and randomly meeting Simon is just one of those billion-to-one chances that happen all the time in this series.

Yes I wouldn't really have a problem with the contrived coincidence of it save that by doing it they essentially use up their quota for crazy twists right there... and then proceed to exceed it later.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yes I wouldn't really have a problem with the contrived coincidence of it save that by doing it they essentially use up their quota for crazy twists right there... and then proceed to exceed it later.

BECAUSE THAT'S THE DAI-GAINAX-DAN WAY!!

[Devonix]

After the battle Nia held on for at least seven days, long enough to have her time with Simon and make their peace together with what was going to happen. She made it to the wedding the most important thing in both of their lives using every ounce of willpower she had to survive until then.

By the time of the wedding it was all she could do to hold herself together for those last moments to get to the I do. The people there knew it was going to happen but they had grown. Death is a part of life and will come for all of them. Seeking spiral power for immortality or for reversing death is the greatest misuse of it since spiral power is all about growth. Growth of the individual and growth of the society.

Never had a problem with Nia dieing. Yes it was sad, but to me it felt like the proper conclusion.

[Raimun]

I don't really have a problem with the ending but overall, the show was a lot stronger during the first half. While I can understand how and why Nia died, I don't think her death was all that well written. Sometimes it really is about how you got there.

Basically any of the Kamina's escapades trumps the final battle. He died because it was not humanly possible for the regretfully human writers to top any of that. After all, aren't most of the legends dead?

[Mando Knight]

BECAUSE THAT'S THE DAI-GAINAX-DAN WAY!!

Kick logic to the curb and do the nonsensical!

[Kato]

To be honest... I don't care too much. Not that I disliked Nia but I didn't feel that strongly towards her. So her death didn't get as much to me as other deaths.

Though, I guess story telling wise... I guess it kind of makes sense with the whole growing up thing. People die and you have to cope with it. They did it before and they had other people die in the finale (more in the series than in the movie which was kind of meh but maybe that's just me) and sometimes the person who dies is the one most dear to you and still you have to be able to let go. I guess turning into a hermit afterwards isn't the best conclusion but... whatever. Maybe he just looked like a hermit in the end.

[Tavar]

From what I remember, isn't it stated that Lordgenome knew that his daughters had the potential to be the messengers? That's why he kept killing them when they grew old enough, as well as why they had a pretty freaky phenotype. As for the Antispiral not noticing, it didn't notice until Nia started disobeying: then it shut her down pretty quickly, only using her as bait for it's traps.

[Soras Teva Gee]

From what I remember, isn't it stated that Lordgenome knew that his daughters had the potential to be the messengers? That's why he kept killing them when they grew old enough, as well as why they had a pretty freaky phenotype. As for the Antispiral not noticing, it didn't notice until Nia started disobeying: then it shut her down pretty quickly, only using her as bait for it's traps.

That's not stated anywhere near so clearly. There certainly isn't anything explaining Nia's looks as even the least bit significant or related. Not to be particular but I smell fanon patching everything together everything into a neat bundle.

And Nia started rebelling about the same time they stopped the moondrop so the threshold is similar.

[deuterio12]

Some people say that Nia dying means "growing up". I say they're right, but not in the good sense. Simon does grow up in the part he's giving up on everything he had fought for during his youth, losing all his enthusiasm and then aparently spending the rest of his life as a traveling hobo whitout doing anything pratical again. Which does happen with quite a big amount of people out there, that just resign themselves to the bad things of life as they grow up, but that's never a good thing, far from it.

This is, Simon led countless of his friends to their deaths and obliterated the whole anti-nemesis civilization with a single main purpose: Nia. He was in love with her. And then when he finally has his prize, after so much sacrifice, he simply lets her slip away just like that. That's an horrible final message if you ask me.

"Hey, I worked pretty hard my life to make lots of money and now my wife has a dangerous disease, I guess I'll just let her die instead of going to buy her some top-quality medicine, because it wouldn't be fair for the other people in the world that can't afford top-quality medicine."

[Buwh]

The whole 'death is a part of life' thing is complete bollocks in a setting where you can counter it. We only accept it as a necessary part because we have entirely no way to circumvent it and try to make ourselves feel better about that. Nia's death was so unnecessary and just, I just hated it, and I love Gurren Lagann the most of any anime I've ever seen.. till then. Terrible!

She held on for seven days. That's more than enough time to find a solution to the inevitable death of someone they loved more than just allowing it to happen without caring. That isn't growing up. How many people do you think wouldn't fight tooth and nail to fight whatever disease was killing a loved one? If the issue was that he couldn't bring her back to life, he had a whole seven days to transfer her power source from Anti-Spiral to Spiral, I.E. Himself, and just focus on that never fighting again to retire and have a family. Retire, like he did. She was a construct, it couldn't have been that much trouble! And even if she did die.. who exactly is going to care if the hero of the universe brings back his, and only his, one true love that they just risked their lives and trekked across the galaxy to do? Maybe the general populace would care, but don't tell them, because his friends certainly wouldn't have cared I am absolutely sure.

And what is he doing wandering? Is he using spiral power to solve random crisis in towns and small time crime, or not? Because if not.. what exactly is he doing? We got the implication that he's now a wandering hero.. using the power that's going to destroy the world, I suppose? So it's okay to fight bad guys with but not bring people back to life, okay only to destroy, not to create. And if he isn't using Spiral Power.. what is he doing? Just planting flowers and nothing else? What a great end. :smallmad:

[Dr.Epic]

Spoilered because... spoilers...
Third, it's heavily implied (at least how I saw it) that Simon has enough Spiral energy to bring people back from the dead. Honestly, I think his excuse for not doing that was horribly weak. Unlike most fiction, there is also no suggestion that being resurrected would cause any kind of emotional trauma to the resurrectee. So why not?[/SPOILER

[spoiled]Dude, as a huge fan of both Frankenstien and Fullmetal Alchemist, you just don't bring back the dead.

As for Nia's death, it didn't bug me. It was bitter sweet. It was a testament to you can save the day but still come out short. Not to mention it should how much Simon has grown and how wise he became. Plus I never really like Nia.

[Luka]

Though, I hate stuff that keeps on saying the nonsense of "immortaly is bad and dying is good", I think the ending may have some sense, the whole point of just not doing it would be because
of spiral nemesis, if he could bring her back, he may just not want to because somebody else would want to bring another one back..... and another....and another, until there's so many there's a humongous amount of spiral energy before they have a way to beat it up

Another reason would be, like Yoko said "Simon is not a god", he may be able..... a bit

[Tavar]

The whole 'death is a part of life' thing is complete bollocks in a setting where you can counter it. We only accept it as a necessary part because we have entirely no way to circumvent it and try to make ourselves feel better about that. Nia's death was so unnecessary and just, I just hated it, and I love Gurren Lagann the most of any anime I've ever seen.. till then. Terrible!
Yes. Such a simple, easy way to counter it. All you have to do is potentially destroy the world.

We are talking about hero's, right?

She held on for seven days. That's more than enough time to find a solution to the inevitable death of someone they loved more than just allowing it to happen without caring. That isn't growing up. How many people do you think wouldn't fight tooth and nail to fight whatever disease was killing a loved one?
Seven days is not nearly enough time to find a solution to an unknown, never before seen problem. Oh, it's possible, but saying it's more than enough time is simply farcical. If not insulting: how many people have known that their loved one was going to die in the near future, and been unable to prevent it. I know I have. Good to know I'm a hopeless idiot:smallannoyed:.

Also, you're leaving a big part out of that situation: he could easily bring her back, if he was willing to be part of the end of everything. That sounds like a pretty crappy message as well.



If the issue was that he couldn't bring her back to life, he had a whole seven days to transfer her power source from Anti-Spiral to Spiral, I.E. Himself, and just focus on that never fighting again to retire and have a family. Retire, like he did. She was a construct, it couldn't have been that much trouble!
And if it wasn't possible?



And even if she did die.. who exactly is going to care if the hero of the universe brings back his, and only his, one true love that they just risked their lives and trekked across the galaxy to do?

Maybe the general populace would care, but don't tell them, because his friends certainly wouldn't have cared I am absolutely sure.
Yeah. People aren't going to care that someone can easily bring back the dead, but only used it for himself. Are you even reading what you're writing? Or linking it with what you've already said. You said that people would fight tooth and nail to save those they loved: why wouldn't they do it to get Simon's apparent power.

And what is he doing wandering? Is he using spiral power to solve random crisis in towns and small time crime, or not? Because if not.. what exactly is he doing? We got the implication that he's now a wandering hero.. using the power that's going to destroy the world, I suppose? So it's okay to fight bad guys with but not bring people back to life, okay only to destroy, not to create. And if he isn't using Spiral Power.. what is he doing? Just planting flowers and nothing else? What a great end. :smallmad:
You are not the character, so make sure you aren't imposing your own wishes and goals on him. Some people don't want to be famous or in charge. Remember Simon's title: he's the digger. Not the Captain, president, king, chief, or anything else. Just the digger.

Also, using the power in moderation is fine, it's using it in excess that can become dangerous. Hell, your statement is obviously incorrect going by the fact that they build up a civilization based on Spiral power.

From what we're told, bringing someone back from the dead would be using it in excess. Moreover, it would be reckless in precisely the method that leads to the Spiral Nemisis.

[Buwh]

Wasn't possible? What show had you been watching?

[Tavar]

Wasn't possible? What show had you been watching?

Despite what fans say, Spiral Power cannot actually do everything.

[Buwh]

Prove it. :smallwink:

[Tavar]

Prove it. :smallwink:

Spiral Nemesis.

You have any actual proof for your side, or do you prefer to just make wild statements without regard for truth.

[Mikeavelli]

The whole 'death is a part of life' thing is complete bollocks in a setting where you can counter it.

This statement completely misses the point of the ending.

Spiral power is capable of countering Death, and bringing back the dead, the ending alludes to this being possible. Simon chooses not to do so.

[deuterio12]

This statement completely misses the point of the ending.

Spiral power is capable of countering Death, and bringing back the dead, the ending alludes to this being possible. Simon chooses not to do so.

On the contrary, we have no proof whatsoever that Spiral power is capable of bringing back the dead, otherwise they would've used it on the final battle or something, you know, when they were throwing galaxies like shurikens whitout caring about colateral damage.

What we know is that Spiral Power can extend life and fix injuries. Yet Simon chooses to see the love of his life wither and die before his eyes in a single week. And that's terrible, as the show is basically telling us that Medicine itself is an horrible thing, and that if you're young and have a disease, you should just stand down and die.

[HandofShadows]

What we know is that Spiral Power can extend life and fix injuries. Yet Simon chooses to see the love of his life wither and die before his eyes in a single week. And that's terrible, as the show is basically telling us that Medicine itself is an horrible thing, and that if you're young and have a disease, you should just stand down and die.

The problem is that Nia was actually no longer alive in a biological sense. She had been turned into a simulation. She was a bunch of virtual particles that was only able to hold herself together through sheer willpower after the Anti-Spiral kicked off. In a way she died the moment the Anti-Spiral "activated" her.

[Buwh]

How does the Spiral Nemesis prevent them from not being able to do absolutely anything with Spiral Power before the fact? You haven't proved anything, and you're tone is really starting to tick me off. We're talking about a TV show.

If she was able to hold herself together by sheer willpower.. hmmmmmmm.. I wonder what powers Spiral Power? I wonder if someone close to her has a lot of willpower... willpower that they no longer need to use defending the galaxy...

I don't know how you can justify that using a bit of Spiral Power to keep someone alive is worse than the amount they used in the final battle, even over a lifetime of use. The laws of physics were meaningless in that battle, and galaxies were like solid objects..

The fact that he choose not to is completely acidic to the theme of the series thus far. The theme of the series is 'row row fight the power, you can do anything if you believe, even create giant robots and defeat something completely undefeatable' and the ending is 'but theres a time when you have to give up, lay down and be completely helpless'. How can you not say that's a bad end?

[Nerd-o-rama]

How does the Spiral Nemesis prevent them from not being able to do absolutely anything with Spiral Power before the fact? You haven't proved anything, and you're tone is really starting to tick me off. We're talking about a TV show.

If she was able to hold herself together by sheer willpower.. hmmmmmmm.. I wonder what powers Spiral Power? I wonder if someone close to her has a lot of willpower... willpower that they no longer need to use defending the galaxy...

I don't know how you can justify that using a bit of Spiral Power to keep someone alive is worse than the amount they used in the final battle, even over a lifetime of use. The laws of physics were meaningless in that battle, and galaxies were like solid objects..

The fact that he choose not to is completely acidic to the theme of the series thus far. The theme of the series is 'row row fight the power, you can do anything if you believe, even create giant robots and defeat something completely undefeatable' and the ending is 'but theres a time when you have to give up, lay down and be completely helpless'. How can you not say that's a bad end?

Because the show is also about moving forward and moving on. Death and allowing death is a part of that. If Simon brought Nia back, or didn't allow her to fade away, every single person in the world would want that for themselves, and out of fairness, Simon would be almost obliged to give it to them.

What happens when no one dies, or no one ages? There's no room for progress, no room for new people or new ideas. Every example of death in the series is passing the reigns on to those left behind and moving out of their way. Nia's death and Simon's departure are exactly the same, both in a symbolic and a practical sense.

No matter how powerful or unstoppable you are, there comes a time to pass things on to someone new. The heroes do this, the villains of the story don't (not until they're beaten six ways from Sunday, anyhow). That's what the ending is about.

[Buwh]

I understand all that. It doesn't make the ending any less distasteful in my opinion. I just didn't want to watch something end on a sour note like that. I'm watching GURREN LAGANN, a show so inspirational it just.. well, it was one of the best shows I've seen in a long time. I have the right to criticize the ending of one of my favorite shows of all time and rant about it as I please. And it's not that I am just totally against people dying in that show. When done right it's completely great- Kamina's death was tragic and awesome, and so was Keaton's and any others of the fated Dai-Gurren Brigrade that died. Except for Nia. It wasn't done well. It was completely unnecessary. And there are so many holes in it.

You can still be just as retired with a family than simply wandering the Earth. Even more so! And that's plenty of justification for a new set and new ideals to rise up and all the things you just said. But it didn't end that way. Personally, I think we'd make a lot more progress if some of our greatest minds stuck around and we didn't get some of a new crop of people.

[Xondoure]

I understand all that. It doesn't make the ending any less distasteful in my opinion. I just didn't want to watch something end on a sour note like that. I'm watching GURREN LAGANN, a show so inspirational it just.. well, it was one of the best shows I've seen in a long time. I have the right to criticize the ending of one of my favorite shows of all time and rant about it as I please. And it's not that I am just totally against people dying in that show. When done right it's completely great- Kamina's death was tragic and awesome, and so was Keaton's and any others of the fated Dai-Gurren Brigrade that died. Except for Nia. It wasn't done well. It was completely unnecessary. And there are so many holes in it.

You can still be just as retired with a family than simply wandering the Earth. Even more so! And that's plenty of justification for a new set and new ideals to rise up and all the things you just said. But it didn't end that way. Personally, I think we'd make a lot more progress if some of our greatest minds stuck around and we didn't get some of a new crop of people.

I think the point people are trying to make is that thematically the death makes sense. Now execution wise there might be discussion, but it's rather odd to criticize one of the main messages of the show, which is that death is a fact of life and needs to be accepted in order for one to move past it.

[Tvtyrant]

Also that all of the people who live life's worth living either die or end up spending eternity wandering deserts. The more boring your life, the more likely you'll live!

[Dragonus45]

I understand all that. It doesn't make the ending any less distasteful in my opinion. I just didn't want to watch something end on a sour note like that. I'm watching GURREN LAGANN, a show so inspirational it just.. well, it was one of the best shows I've seen in a long time. I have the right to criticize the ending of one of my favorite shows of all time and rant about it as I please. And it's not that I am just totally against people dying in that show. When done right it's completely great- Kamina's death was tragic and awesome, and so was Keaton's and any others of the fated Dai-Gurren Brigrade that died. Except for Nia. It wasn't done well. It was completely unnecessary. And there are so many holes in it.



So your point is that Gurren Lagann didn't have the happy ending you wanted it to have, so its a bad one that makes no sense despite any facts presented to the contrary.

[deuterio12]

Because the show is also about moving forward and moving on. Death and allowing death is a part of that. If Simon brought Nia back, or didn't allow her to fade away, every single person in the world would want that for themselves, and out of fairness, Simon would be almost obliged to give it to them.

Simon "I sent my friends to their deaths and destroyed a civilization just to get a week with my girl and then let her die anyway"? No, he wouldn't feel obliged in the slightest manner to do so for others.



What happens when no one dies, or no one ages? There's no room for progress, no room for new people or new ideas.


See: the transhumanism suporters that show up in this subforum here and there praising eternal immortality.



Every example of death in the series is passing the reigns on to those left behind and moving out of their way. Nia's death and Simon's departure are exactly the same, both in a symbolic and a practical sense.

There's a diference between passing reigns, and simply giving up and praying others pick up the slack while you run away from your responsibilities and problems.

[Tiki Snakes]

Where on earth does this idea that the only reason Simon did any of this was so he could be with Nia come from? The whole point was that they were opposing the Anti-Spirals and their attempt to kill off all of humanity (and continue doing the same stuff to all other spiral life-forms in the universe).


The tomorrow we're trying to grab for ourselves is not the tomorrow you set up for us; its the tomorrow that we chose for ourselves, a tomorrow that we chose out of all the infinite universes. We'll fight our way through and protect the universe--we'll stop the Spiral Nemesis too!


All the lights in the sky are stars....stars where our spiral cousins are waiting for us.

It seems to bear only the most passing of similarities to the motivations of the characters in the series that I watched.

[Mando Knight]

Where on earth does this idea that the only reason Simon did any of this was so he could be with Nia come from? The whole point was that they were opposing the Anti-Spirals and their attempt to kill off all of humanity (and continue doing the same stuff to all other spiral life-forms in the universe).

The connection to Nia was mostly a fortunate coincidence. Had it been some other, unconnected person who was the Anti-Spiral's messenger, Simon would probably have tried to fight just as hard, but then fail because he wouldn't have the added impetus to save Nia or the link needed to find the Anti-Spiral's dimension.

[Tavar]

So interesting that so many people are stating that the correct action would be to save the girl and destroy the universe.


This is why we can't have nice things.

[HandofShadows]

So interesting that so many people are stating that the correct action would be to save the girl and destroy the universe.


This is why we can't have nice things.

Guess a lot of people missed the leason that Simon was trying to teach. :(

[Seraph]

So interesting that so many people are stating that the correct action would be to save the girl and destroy the universe.


one is not a direct consequence of the other, merely a possibility.

[Soras Teva Gee]

So interesting that so many people are stating that the correct action would be to save the girl and destroy the universe.


This is why we can't have nice things.

The girl and the universe were never related, just scotch taped together to hide that Nia might as well have died from a sudden chestbuster while walking down the isle.

[Nerd-o-rama]

If I keep posting in this thread, I'm going to have to break forum rules to make my point, so I will try not to.

[Mikeavelli]

On the contrary, we have no proof whatsoever that Spiral power is capable of bringing back the dead, otherwise they would've used it on the final battle or something



Forgetting someone?

http://images.wikia.com/gurennlagann/images/1/1c/G-L_-_Lord_Genome.jpg

Yeah, it only works because it's "super-spiral space" or something, but do you really think Simon couldn't just go there again / create some more in order to bring Nia back?

[Starbuck_II]

So interesting that so many people are stating that the correct action would be to save the girl and destroy the universe.


This is why we can't have nice things.

Simon said he was willing to fight the Spiral Nemesis, so he should have raised the girl, fight the Nemesis, and have a decent ending.

[HandofShadows]

Forgetting someone?

http://images.wikia.com/gurennlagann/images/1/1c/G-L_-_Lord_Genome.jpg

Yeah, it only works because it's "super-spiral space" or something, but do you really think Simon couldn't just go there again / create some more in order to bring Nia back?


He wasn't brought by Spiral Power but by advanced technology as a biocomputer. This option would not work for Nia.

[Xondoure]

He wasn't brought by Spiral Power but by advanced technology as a biocomputer. This option would not work for Nia.

Note that I approve of Nia's passing. However, just what was it exactly that fueled the rise of such advanced technology?

[Forum Explorer]

The girl and the universe were never related, just scotch taped together to hide that Nia might as well have died from a sudden chestbuster while walking down the isle.

Exactly. **** that would be a better ending then what we got. One final **** you from the Anti-Spirals instead of Nia just fading away and nobody even trying to help her. Honestly they didn't even need to use Spiral power to save her, regular medicine likely could have worked as well. Or just use Spiral power to return her to human and let them live out their lives. Or just don't bring it up at all because I'm pretty sure we wouldn't even notice otherwise!

Who here can honestly say that if Nia had lived they would have been confused?

[Tavar]

Simon said he was willing to fight the Spiral Nemesis, so he should have raised the girl, fight the Nemesis, and have a decent ending.

The Spiral Nemisis isn't something you can fight: it's what happens when too much spiral energy is used. Thus, the only way to prevent it is to not use too much spiral energy.

Additionally, no one has really answered why, if one person is brought back, others shouldn't be brought back as well.


Oh, and Forum Explorer, medicine wouldn't have worked. First of all, medicine isn't some sort of pancea: giving someone antibiotics when they don't have the right type of bacterial infection will do, at best, nothing, and at worst it will contribute to more resistant strains. Furthermore, I'm not really sure of any medicine that counters someone ceasing to exist.

Soras Teva Gee: she is, at that point, a program maintained by the Anti-Spirals. What happens to a program when the system running it is destroyed?

Yes, it would be possible to write a different ending, and have it make sense. But saying that the current one doesn't make sense is pure nonsense, assuming you decide to think about the subject.

[Forum Explorer]

The Spiral Nemisis isn't something you can fight: it's what happens when too much spiral energy is used. Thus, the only way to prevent it is to not use too much spiral energy.

Additionally, no one has really answered why, if one person is brought back, others shouldn't be brought back as well.


Oh, and Forum Explorer, medicine wouldn't have worked. First of all, medicine isn't some sort of pancea: giving someone antibiotics when they don't have the right type of bacterial infection will do, at best, nothing, and at worst it will contribute to more resistant strains. Furthermore, I'm not really sure of any medicine that counters someone ceasing to exist.

Soras Teva Gee: she is, at that point, a program maintained by the Anti-Spirals. What happens to a program when the system running it is destroyed?

Yes, it would be possible to write a different ending, and have it make sense. But saying that the current one doesn't make sense is pure nonsense, assuming you decide to think about the subject.

When I said medicine I was more thinking medical science then actual drugs. Now she is or at least was at least partially human before so I guess all I'm really asking is why didn't they try and reverse that, either through science or spiral power. Her being a program maintained by the Anti-Spirals didn't make much sense either. If they were going to kill her off they should have done so earlier.

[Tavar]

When I said medicine I was more thinking medical science then actual drugs. Now she is or at least was at least partially human before so I guess all I'm really asking is why didn't they try and reverse that, either through science or spiral power. Her being a program maintained by the Anti-Spirals didn't make much sense either. If they were going to kill her off they should have done so earlier.
Why didn't it make sense?

And, well, reversing something completely unknown within 7 days is, as I've said, not exactly the easiest thing. To complain that it didn't happen is more than a bit odd.

Oh, and are you sure that they didn't try and reverse it? They seem pretty sure that there is only one way to bring her back, and that way is tied to the Spiral Nemesis(which, for a multitude of reasons, isn't a viable answer). Hell, it's not like we see that much of the aftermath.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Soras Teva Gee: she is, at that point, a program maintained by the Anti-Spirals. What happens to a program when the system running it is destroyed?

Yes, it would be possible to write a different ending, and have it make sense. But saying that the current one doesn't make sense is pure nonsense, assuming you decide to think about the subject.

She perhaps reverts to the human she started as in the first place?

Now don't get me wrong this is not an outright nonsensical in strict terms it is explained and so forth... however this is still inferior story telling. Nia's death comes out of left field in the final moments of the series so they can have a bittersweet ending. Note I personally would not spare Nia, I would handle it differently.

Namely by not linking the AS to Nia's death at all, maybe blame it on Lordgenome making a doll designed to die young for example. With plenty of foreshadowing for this, established when she's still a kid would be best. The AS though used up its quota for pulling Shyamalan style twists in selecting Nia at random to begin with. But heck anything other then a last second ramming of an aesop into the story courtesy of Gimmy ex post facto. (Seriously in the last minutes of the series you are going to add a question like that outta nowhere... for shame Gainax)

Nia's death is a black mark against an otherwise excellent ending, and phenomenal series. Its a mishandled twist played for maximum shock value, the series could have done much better.

[Forum Explorer]

Why didn't it make sense?

And, well, reversing something completely unknown within 7 days is, as I've said, not exactly the easiest thing. To complain that it didn't happen is more than a bit odd.

Oh, and are you sure that they didn't try and reverse it? They seem pretty sure that there is only one way to bring her back, and that way is tied to the Spiral Nemesis(which, for a multitude of reasons, isn't a viable answer). Hell, it's not like we see that much of the aftermath.

Besides the fact that genetics do not work that way at all, she becomes a program which manages to eventually resist. So she goes from flesh and blood creature to a digital thing? Because of her DNA? *******. Did she have a physical form? Why would that disappear after the Anti-Spirals are gone? After all if a programmer dies the program keeps running just fine.

Again I don't have a problem with the concept. I just feel it was mishandled. I could have accepted that the Anti-Spirals abducted and physically overwrote Nia in order to create more despair. After all she was a beloved individual of the revolution.

It's the same thing with the death. She just flat out disappears and it felt like complete bull. If you are going to kill her off do it properly. Have the Anti-Spiral tear her to pieces before she's rescued. Or have her rescued but die from her injuries. I can't think of a worse way to kill Nia off then what we got.
(OK that's a lie, I can think of many worse ways to do it.)


Sure it would be incredibly difficult to do. I would like to see them at least try.

[Tavar]

Besides the fact that genetics do not work that way at all, she becomes a program which manages to eventually resist. So she goes from flesh and blood creature to a digital thing? Because of her DNA? *******. Did she have a physical form? Why would that disappear after the Anti-Spirals are gone? After all if a programmer dies the program keeps running just fine.
You're right, genetics don't work that way. But Spiral power doesn't follow the rules regarding DNA either. Hell, most of the Technology shown in the show doesn't really follow the laws of physics as we know them. Thus, when someone says "she was turned into a program", you kind of have to take it on faith that what they're describing actually works.

Also, it wasn't because of her DNA, it was because the Antispirals did something, and the thing they homed in on was part of her DNA.

Most likely, given what we see, she was Antimatter held together within a Hard Light hologram.

If a computer is destroyed, the programs running on that computer die.

It's the same thing with the death. She just flat out disappears and it felt like complete bull. If you are going to kill her off do it properly. Have the Anti-Spiral tear her to pieces before she's rescued. Or have her rescued but die from her injuries. I can't think of a worse way to kill Nia off then what we got.
Considering that, before her rescue, the Antispiral was causing her to disappear, it somewhat fits. Add in the fact that she became a program, and it makes more sense: once the thing running the program is destroyed/turned off, the program disappears

Yes, turning someone into a program doesn't make sense given out technology base, but the technology base in GL is so different from ours that there's really no comparison.

[Mewtarthio]

Have the Anti-Spiral tear her to pieces before she's rescued. Or have her rescued but die from her injuries.

The Anti-Spiral did pretty much disintegrate her while it was "scanning" her.

[Forum Explorer]

The Anti-Spiral did pretty much disintegrate her while it was "scanning" her.

Exactly. Just have her die when Simon reaches her. BOOM! problem solved.

[Xondoure]

Exactly. Just have her die when Simon reaches her. BOOM! problem solved.

You would take away their last few days of happiness? :smallfrown:

The only thing I dislike about Nia's death was the reveal, which was used as a sucker punch. I think it would have been a much sweeter note if they had told us what was going to happen, and then we saw them making the most of what time they had left. Maybe they tried, but none of the animators could stop crying long enough to finish working on it.

[Devonix]

You would take away their last few days of happiness? :smallfrown:

The only thing I dislike about Nia's death was the reveal, which was used as a sucker punch. I think it would have been a much sweeter note if they had told us what was going to happen, and then we saw them making the most of what time they had left. Maybe they tried, but none of the animators could stop crying long enough to finish working on it.

Yeah that would go against the theme of making the most of your life if she never even gets the chance to fulfill her dream.

[Tavar]

The only thing I dislike about Nia's death was the reveal, which was used as a sucker punch. I think it would have been a much sweeter note if they had told us what was going to happen, and then we saw them making the most of what time they had left. Maybe they tried, but none of the animators could stop crying long enough to finish working on it.

They kinda hinted at it during the final battle, when she kinda faded out for a couple seconds, and then Simon and her's reaction.

[Forum Explorer]

You would take away their last few days of happiness? :smallfrown:

The only thing I dislike about Nia's death was the reveal, which was used as a sucker punch. I think it would have been a much sweeter note if they had told us what was going to happen, and then we saw them making the most of what time they had left. Maybe they tried, but none of the animators could stop crying long enough to finish working on it.

Again better then what we got.

I like your idea better as well.


They kinda hinted at it during the final battle, when she kinda faded out for a couple seconds, and then Simon and her's reaction.

That was a pretty big blink and you miss it part. I saw it but didn't think anything of it even after the ending. It was only til someone pointed it out as foreshadowing that it clicked.

I guess my complaint about the ending goes like this; the ending was trying to give me an emotional response and it seemed to be aimed towards bittersweet. What it got was disgusted confusion because it felt like an ***pull to try and cram in a bittersweet ending.

My response of Nia dying would make the final fight a sort of triumphant rage as they got vengence for her death.

Xondoure's response would give us an actual bittersweet ending, and would get the message across much better.

[Tavar]

There's also the fact that she was largely disintegrated by the Anti-Spiral before her rescue. And the repeated insistence that Nia was largely gone, and that she was simply a program. Yes, that doesn't really tell you what's going to happen, but it certainly implies less than a perfect ending.

It's not really an ***pull by any stretch of the word. They never say that she's fine, and in fact they imply the exact opposite.

Oh, and canonically they spend the remaining time at a resort together(also, implied that they did not remain virgins, if they were ones). It's not touched on in the show because of the lack of time.

[Forum Explorer]

There's also the fact that she was largely disintegrated by the Anti-Spiral before her rescue. And the repeated insistence that Nia was largely gone, and that she was simply a program. Yes, that doesn't really tell you what's going to happen, but it certainly implies less than a perfect ending.

It's not really an ***pull by any stretch of the word. They never say that she's fine, and in fact they imply the exact opposite.

Oh, and canonically they spend the remaining time at a resort together(also, implied that they did not remain virgins, if they were ones). It's not touched on in the show because of the lack of time.

Regardless on if it was an ***pull or not if felt like one. So the ending was, well not ruined, but worse for it.

[Tavar]

Regardless on if it was an ***pull or not if felt like one. So the ending was, well not ruined, but worse for it.

So, in other words, no subtlety can ever be employed in a show, or it will feel like an ***pull. That's pretty strict.

[Forum Explorer]

So, in other words, no subtlety can ever be employed in a show, or it will feel like an ***pull. That's pretty strict.

Not at all. The subtly employed here is Nia glowing for a brief second and the Anit-Spiral telling her that's she a program and to give up. You know like how it was saying to the rest of the cast to give up the entire time and that victory was impossible.

Plus in the final fight Nia looked and acted perfectly fine outside that brief glow. And when she does die she doesn't collapse she just fades away.

So it felt like it came out of nowhere. Just like her transformation into a Anti-Spiral was out of nowhere. It happened and then we got an explanation that was unsatisfying.

I have to ask if Nia did not die and the wedding happened normally what would you have thought? Would it have seemed out of place or wrong?

[The Glyphstone]

That was a pretty big blink and you miss it part. I saw it but didn't think anything of it even after the ending. It was only til someone pointed it out as foreshadowing that it clicked.


Isnt that kind of what foreshadowing is? Something that doesn't spoil the surprise, but is obvious in retrospect? Well, good foreshadowing, at least.

[Soras Teva Gee]

They kinda hinted at it during the final battle, when she kinda faded out for a couple seconds, and then Simon and her's reaction.

So help me wasn't that just the movie?

Either way its only in the final episode and last bits of it at that which is the problem, the half of the final episode is not the time to start pulling that


So, in other words, no subtlety can ever be employed in a show, or it will feel like an ***pull. That's pretty strict.

Hardly that, but any lead up to the Nia's death isn't subtlely hidden, it would only be pure speculation based extrapolation. A subtle hint would be someone like Leeron speculating on Nia's biological condition well before hand. Or other statement.

[Tavar]

So help me wasn't that just the movie?

Either way its only in the final episode and last bits of it at that which is the problem, the half of the final episode is not the time to start pulling that
Nope, it's there at ~12:37 of the last episode. It even has Simon looking horrified at a realization, and Nia comforting him.

Also, episode 18, ~16:40. "I have become an Antispiral. I can never become human again."

Seems like it's not just the last episode.


Hardly that, but any lead up to the Nia's death isn't subtlely hidden, it would only be pure speculation based extrapolation. A subtle hint would be someone like Leeron speculating on Nia's biological condition well before hand. Or other statement.
How about "I have become an Antispiral. I can never become human again.", or the stuff talking about her being a virtual life form.

Also, it's funny how subtle to you means "plainly stated from a position of authority". That seems rather forward to me.

Not at all. The subtly employed here is Nia glowing for a brief second and the Anit-Spiral telling her that's she a program and to give up. You know like how it was saying to the rest of the cast to give up the entire time and that victory was impossible.
Yeah, you know, subtlety. Also, the Antispiral doesn't really lie: his information is true, as far as he knows.


Plus in the final fight Nia looked and acted perfectly fine outside that brief glow. And when she does die she doesn't collapse she just fades away.
What. Are you really quibbling about the exact way she disappears? How are the two methods really different?

So it felt like it came out of nowhere. Just like her transformation into a Anti-Spiral was out of nowhere. It happened and then we got an explanation that was unsatisfying.
What part of her initial transformation was unsatisfying?

I have to ask if Nia did not die and the wedding happened normally what would you have thought? Would it have seemed out of place or wrong?
No, but just because an alternative end would make sense doesn't mean that the ending we received doesn't make sense.

[Devonix]

So help me wasn't that just the movie?

Either way its only in the final episode and last bits of it at that which is the problem, the half of the final episode is not the time to start pulling that



Hardly that, but any lead up to the Nia's death isn't subtlely hidden, it would only be pure speculation based extrapolation. A subtle hint would be someone like Leeron speculating on Nia's biological condition well before hand. Or other statement.

Nope the same scene was in the series and It was not that subtle I and everyone I saw it with was expecting Nia to die as soon as the battle ended. We were actually suprised to see the wedding scene, and when the characters state that they knew it would happen, we all said that we did too and it was strong of her to last as long as she did.

[Soras Teva Gee]

How about "I have become an Antispiral. I can never become human again.", or the stuff talking about her being a virtual life form.

Also, it's funny how subtle to you means "plainly stated from a position of authority". That seems rather forward to me.

Which is not sufficient to overcome her increasing rebellion as the dominant theme of her character. Simon even calls Nia out on the BS with the ring, everything she said before that is instantly suspect as mere programming. Of course she can't go back, she's a loyal Messenger of the AS for example. Its impossible just like its impossible she's really still in there and can't defy the AS. This is really the crux of the problem

If she's all AS... how can she rebel at all?

If she's not all AS... how come she can't survive?

That's the catch-22 of the Nia situation right there. She goes all the way to ditching the outfit, and in the movie creating her own damn galaxy scale mecha with the rest of Team Gurren. But "lol noes foo" she can't survive.

I call BS writers. You dropped the ball.

(Now is it quite a gaping plot hole no. Its not a completely insensible development. That doesn't eliminate it nature as a poorly written dirty trick on the writer's part)



Nope, it's there at ~12:37 of the last episode. It even has Simon looking horrified at a realization, and Nia comforting him.

Thanks I mostly have the whole final episode so cross contaminated with the movie I can't separate it. And I remember that bit as one of the elements that *almost* makes Nia's death bare scrutiny. And the movie managed to do both better and worse in handling it.

[Forum Explorer]

Nope, it's there at ~12:37 of the last episode. It even has Simon looking horrified at a realization, and Nia comforting him.

Also, episode 18, ~16:40. "I have become an Antispiral. I can never become human again."

Seems like it's not just the last episode.


How about "I have become an Antispiral. I can never become human again.", or the stuff talking about her being a virtual life form.

Also, it's funny how subtle to you means "plainly stated from a position of authority". That seems rather forward to me.

Yeah, you know, subtlety. Also, the Antispiral doesn't really lie: his information is true, as far as he knows.


What. Are you really quibbling about the exact way she disappears? How are the two methods really different?

What part of her initial transformation was unsatisfying?

No, but just because an alternative end would make sense doesn't mean that the ending we received doesn't make sense.

The whole "I have become an Anti-Spiral I can never become human again" quote? Like most lines from the Anti-Spiral I consider it mostly propaganda. I mean it says a bunch of things are impossible which happen anyway.

I don't lie I just give bad data :smallyuk:
While the intent is different the result is the same. You can't trust what its saying.

I suppose I am quibbling about the exact way yes. I would have preferred to see suffering as Nia gave up. I would have preferred for the mind to be gone but the body to remain. What we got was too clean for my tastes.

Nia's initial transformation was unsatisying because it wasn't set up beforehand. It just happens and then we get an explanation. Like Nia's death it felt like it was being jammed in there to increase drama.


The point is that the 'good' ending makes more sense and is easier to accept. Why? Because it doesn't try to cram anything in there. It seems to be the logical sequence that things should have gone. The ending we got doesn't get the same thing. It seems crammed in and poorly justified.

[polity4life]

On account of this thread and the OP's post, I watched this entire anime over the past three days, and I agree that Nia's death is rather abrupt despite the foreshadowing in the second-to-last and last episodes.

Sure, lines are stated by her, possessed by the AS, or the AS itself that make her death appear obvious in hindsight. However until it became glaringly obvious that the Spirals' success was at the cost of at least Nia's life in the last episode, I wrote off all said about her fate by the AS as typical, sadistic villainy. It seemed as though the AS was merely playing with her thoughts and emotions to satisfy itself. Only when Nia's departure from existence became obviously clear and the motives of the AS shown in a far less sinister light did it make sense but at that point it was far too late in the series to that event.

All told it felt forced. It was as though the writer had an endgame for Simon which involved him becoming Kamina v2.0 but that required a great detachment from the world that could only come to be with Nia's passing. However, not enough was done to really demonstrate that Nia's death was an absolute certainty with the Spirals' victory. Only by spoiling the ending or looking back do the pieces come together in a manner that demonstrates a proper use of foreshadowing.

Regardless, I enjoyed the anime as a whole. It's optimistic and bitter at the same time with so many dreams being realized with a trivial amount of time to enjoy them.

[Devonix]

Which is not sufficient to overcome her increasing rebellion as the dominant theme of her character. Simon even calls Nia out on the BS with the ring, everything she said before that is instantly suspect as mere programming. Of course she can't go back, she's a loyal Messenger of the AS for example. Its impossible just like its impossible she's really still in there and can't defy the AS. This is really the crux of the problem

If she's all AS... how can she rebel at all?

If she's not all AS... how come she can't survive?

That's the catch-22 of the Nia situation right there. She goes all the way to ditching the outfit, and in the movie creating her own damn galaxy scale mecha with the rest of Team Gurren. But "lol noes foo" she can't survive.

I call BS writers. You dropped the ball.

(Now is it quite a gaping plot hole no. Its not a completely insensible development. That doesn't eliminate it nature as a poorly written dirty trick on the writer's part)



Thanks I mostly have the whole final episode so cross contaminated with the movie I can't separate it. And I remember that bit as one of the elements that *almost* makes Nia's death bare scrutiny. And the movie managed to do both better and worse in handling it.


The whole changing of her clothes and Lordgenome getting a body Her creating her own mecha. All of that was just because they were in a Superspiral dimension seperated from regular reality.

In that place thought becomes fact but only there. That's why Lorgenome talked about his temporary body. Even if he hadn't sacrificed himself there he would have just reverted to a head in a jar when they left. It was outright stated that all the stuff they made there would fade away once that universe collapsed.

Nia just managed to hold on longer.

[Soras Teva Gee]

The whole changing of her clothes and Lordgenome getting a body Her creating her own mecha. All of that was just because they were in a Superspiral dimension seperated from regular reality.

In that place thought becomes fact but only there. That's why Lorgenome talked about his temporary body. Even if he hadn't sacrificed himself there he would have just reverted to a head in a jar when they left. It was outright stated that all the stuff they made there would fade away once that universe collapsed.

Nia just managed to hold on longer.

Wait the you mean dimension completely controlled by the AS? Where the AS only talks about them using Spiral Power every time they pull something.

Sorry, no dice, nice try though. To beat the AS control they needed something outside it, even if we grant it was only possible there (and that is somehow not more of what we were seeing on Earth since the series start) it was still the AS homefield where multiple times they did the impossible in defiance of him.

If Nia could truly do nothing then she should have faded immediately, if she could last longer... how come she can't do indefinitely. Poor implemented plot demands that's why.

[Devonix]

Wait the you mean dimension completely controlled by the AS? Where the AS only talks about them using Spiral Power every time they pull something.

Sorry, no dice, nice try though. To beat the AS control they needed something outside it, even if we grant it was only possible there (and that is somehow not more of what we were seeing on Earth since the series start) it was still the AS homefield where multiple times they did the impossible in defiance of him.

If Nia could truly do nothing then she should have faded immediately, if she could last longer... how come she can't do indefinitely. Poor implemented plot demands that's why.


Their combined spiral power was enough to Do the impossible and use that reality's properties to their own advantage. You may not have liked it, but the show did state that was what was going on.

[Tavar]

Um...they state that she was only able to hold on till the wedding. I mean, if someone is hanging off a cliff, it's not exactly unexpected that they will tire and then fall.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Their combined spiral power was enough to Do the impossible and use that reality's properties to their own advantage. You may not have liked it, but the show did state that was what was going on.

Yes it was SP doing the work. Of course Spiral Power has been doing the impossible since Gurren Lagann was born so I see no reason to ghetto it off now.

And this still begs how Nia was able to do anything since she shouldn't have it and be subject to death from not being human. This is perhaps tolerable in the series but not in the movie where nevermind the mecha she even gets changed pupils along with Simon and Yoko (and presumably the rest of the team) once Super TTGL comes along.


Um...they state that she was only able to hold on till the wedding. I mean, if someone is hanging off a cliff, it's not exactly unexpected that they will tire and then fall.

Why was she able to hold on that long though is the precise problem. Instantly (or dramatically near enough) would be vastly more sensible if she arbitrarily can't survive without the AS in existence. Its not something she should not have been able to do anything about at all... except with the endless power of life and evolution that should allow her to survive.

(And no her staying alive is not anything even remotely close to irresponsible use of it)

[Devonix]

Yes it was SP doing the work. Of course Spiral Power has been doing the impossible since Gurren Lagann was born so I see no reason to ghetto it off now.

And this still begs how Nia was able to do anything since she shouldn't have it and be subject to death from not being human. This is perhaps tolerable in the series but not in the movie where nevermind the mecha she even gets changed pupils along with Simon and Yoko (and presumably the rest of the team) once Super TTGL comes along.



Why was she able to hold on that long though is the precise problem. Instantly (or dramatically near enough) would be vastly more sensible if she arbitrarily can't survive without the AS in existence. Its not something she should not have been able to do anything about at all... except with the endless power of life and evolution that should allow her to survive.

(And no her staying alive is not anything even remotely close to irresponsible use of it)


It's all going to boil down to you not liking it and Me liking it

You thinking it wasn't done well enough

Me thinking it was telegraphed right for my tastes.


Am I glad she died, no of course not, though I do feel that it fit the theme of the series and that her death also made the ending resonate more for me than if she had lived. They all got their happy ending to me, just not the ending they all wanted.

Nia died happy and they lived their lives to the fullest . They worked with what time they had, and that's all any of us get to do.

Can I convince you that you are wrong, no of course not since we're both arguing about how something made us feel, and that's something that is going to be different from one person to the next .