Prestige Classes and Caster Level [3.5]

[kulosle]

So I'm confused whether or not prestige classes that increase your spells per day and spells known from another class also up your spell level. So most prestige classes in the DMG have a line that says you do gain an increase in spell caster level, the arcane trickster uses a double negative, but every other class just says you add your levels together to determine spells per day, spells known, and caster level. So do all the other prestige classes, including archmage, not up your caster level?

[Quietus]

So I'm confused whether or not prestige classes that increase your spells per day and spells known from another class also up your spell level. So most prestige classes in the DMG have a line that says you do gain an increase in spell caster level, the arcane trickster uses a double negative, but every other class just says you add your levels together to determine spells per day, spells known, and caster level. So do all the other prestige classes, including archmage, not up your caster level?

In general, if the table showing what the class gets has the "+1 level of existing class" line, then it effectively gives a level of whatever you had for casting prior - your 5th level Wizard casting becomes 6th.

If, however, there's a class feature, item, or something else that gives +1 caster level, but does NOT explicitly call out "As if you'd gained a level in X", then it only raises your caster level for the purpose of spell duration, distance, and dispelling. The orange ioun stone would be an example here.


By way of example with classes : Archmage gives you "+1 level of existing class", while Heirophant gives +1 caster level. Archmage would increase your spells per day, give you new spells known, new spell slots. Heirophant does not.

[eggs]

Yeah, by RAW, the caster level progression mechanics for the DMG PrCs tend to be terrible and inconsistent.

But every example and discussion of how those classes should work directly contradicts that RAW; I doubt anyone has ever played by those rules (the designers included).

[kulosle]

In general, if the table showing what the class gets has the "+1 level of existing class" line, then it effectively gives a level of whatever you had for casting prior - your 5th level Wizard casting becomes 6th.

If, however, there's a class feature, item, or something else that gives +1 caster level, but does NOT explicitly call out "As if you'd gained a level in X", then it only raises your caster level for the purpose of spell duration, distance, and dispelling. The orange ioun stone would be an example here.


By way of example with classes : Archmage gives you "+1 level of existing class", while Heirophant gives +1 caster level. Archmage would increase your spells per day, give you new spells known, new spell slots. Heirophant does not.

Well it doesn't actually increase your level in the class or else you would gain skill bab saves etc. but it specifically says you only gain spells per day and spells known.

[Quietus]

Well it doesn't actually increase your level in the class or else you would gain skill bab saves etc. but it specifically says you only gain spells per day and spells known.

From Archmage, on their spell increase :


When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.

So if you were, as an example, a level 14 Wizard and took a level of Archmage, you gain the BAB, saves, skills of Archmage, and "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class", as dictated above. You now cast as though you were a level 15 Wizard, gaining access to 8th level spells, gaining new spells known (or in the case of a wizard, in your spellbook), and additional daily slots for many of the spell levels you already had access to.

If that doesn't clarify it, then I'm unsure what you're confused about.

[eggs]

If that doesn't clarify it, then I'm unsure what you're confused about.
The Archmage doesn't indicate anywhere that it increases caster level. Its table does say "+1 level," but has no reference to CL; only spells per day/spells known.

But it might be worth pointing out that the Thaumaturgist has a similar phrasing (completely neglecting to address CL), but has this aside: "This essentially means that he adds the level of thaumaturgist to the level of whatever other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly."

The takeaway is that the DMG prestige classes are sloppily written. Things like the lack of spells known on the Mystic Theurge/Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster progressions are usually attributed to the same sloppiness.

[Duke of URL]

Yes, I heartily agree that there is massive inconsistency in how that rule block is written from class to class. They are all meant (except the Hierophant, but that's another discussion) to be treated as gaining a level in the original casting class for spells known, per day, and caster level.

[Khedrac]

How about Nar Demonbinder? - Where it specifically says "invocations known" - which means you don't get an increase in Eldritch Blast damage....

[eggs]

That one doesn't look like an oversight or error. From the Advancement section:
"Since the demonbinder class does not improve the amount of damage you deal..."

[Khedrac]

That one doesn't look like an oversight or error. From the Advancement section:
"Since the demonbinder class does not improve the amount of damage you deal..."
Ooh - I missed that. Which to me makes the class useless - you get some OK abilities in return for no longer being of any use...

[eggs]

Demonbinder's abilities are based off its level+Charisma, so it might not completely suck as a 1-2 level dip on a high-charisma Warlock (Gaseous Form, True Seeing, lots of Temp HP aren't a lot worse than a Warlock level). The daily uses and full-round activation still blow, though.