Divine Archer: Cleric vs Archivist

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Searching the forum I have seen a few topics on this, but mostly they end up saying "both have their merits and are equally good," without actually going into any particulars. What it really comes down to is what spells you can access as an Archivist that make giving up domains (free feats) worth it.

I have two potential frames for this character:
Uurkrau Illumian Archivist - This character is Dex SAD* and he doesn't have to take the Zen Archery feat. He gets access to Ranger spells. Only 4 skill points per level, but he can afford to get a smaller Knowledge Devotion bonus because Dark Knowledge makes up for that.

Human Cloistered Cleric - With Zen Archery I am Wis SAD** and the human bonus feat makes up for the cost of Zen Archery. I don't have access to Ranger spells, but I can get Knowledge Devotion for free (trade in Inquisition), along with another domain + Knowledge domain. I get 6 skill points per level, plus the Human bonus skills. Going into Ordained Champion/taking War domain allows me to get extra damage via the Holy Warror reserve feat.

*DCs don't matter since this character will obviously focus on self-buffs.
**I don't think there are any archery feats that matter beyond Manyshot, so 13 Dex should be enough.




What Ranger spells are really worth it to this character (Hunter's Eye/Split Arrow/etc) that would make me want Archivist over Cleric?



Are there any archery feats with a dex prerequisite, other than Manyshot, worth considering?



Are there any other archery-related feats you would recommend?

[HunterOfJello]

Rapid Shot and Improved Rapid Shot are much better than Manyshot.

Divine Power will be your go-to spell for boosting up extra attacks per round.


When considering the Archivist, you should also consider the massive laundry list of druid spells the archivist has access to. Bite of the Wererat can be very handy as a dexterity boost and the druid list has lots of spells that will help you root enemies in place or slow them down, allowing you to snipe them as you please.

As far as Ranger goes, Guided Shot and Hawkeye are excellent spells to have on hand. Hunter's Mercy is also amazing when you need to get in that one super heavy hit to take a monster down. It's also worth noting that those are all 1st level spells for rangers, and therefore 1st level spells for archivists too!

The Ranger spell that's a real gem to go after is the 3rd level spell, Arrow Storm. It allows you to attack every creature with 1 ranged attack within your weapon's range increment. If you're using a Composite Longbow, then that's every enemy within 110ft of you. That's enough to take down an army of mooks and free up your entire party to go after a big bad!

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Rapid Shot and Improved Rapid Shot are much better than Manyshot.

Oops, that's what I meant. 13 Dex for Rapid Shot. Improved Rapid shot seems very not worth it, it requires Manyshot and its effect is basically Weapon Focus.


Divine Power will be your go-to spell for boosting up extra attacks per round.


When considering the Archivist, you should also consider the massive laundry list of druid spells the archivist has access to. Bite of the Wererat can be very handy as a dexterity boost and the druid list has lots of spells that will help you root enemies in place or slow them down, allowing you to snipe them as you please.

As far as Ranger goes, Guided Shot and Hawkeye are excellent spells to have on hand. Hunter's Mercy is also amazing when you need to get in that one super heavy hit to take a monster down. It's also worth noting that those are all 1st level spells for rangers, and therefore 1st level spells for archivists too!

The Ranger spell that's a real gem to go after is the 3rd level spell, Arrow Storm. It allows you to attack every creature with 1 ranged attack within your weapon's range increment. If you're using a Composite Longbow, then that's every enemy within 110ft of you. That's enough to take down an army of mooks and free up your entire party to go after a big bad!

Those are some good ones. I suspected that there were some hidden treasures out there. Thanks.

[eggs]

If Divine Metamagic: Persist is in the picture, Cleric gets bigger numbers so easily that it's hard not to call a clear winner.

If DMM:P's not, Archivist's spell access will usually win out.

[Urpriest]

If Divine Metamagic: Persist is in the picture, Cleric gets bigger numbers so easily that it's hard not to call a clear winner.

If DMM:P's not, Archivist's spell access will usually win out.

I think Sacred Exorcist is assumed to be in play here.

[Unusual Muse]

One thing to consider about Archivists is that their power level is very much campaign-specific; in order for them to really take advantage of their vast spell lists, those spells have to be available as divine spells in the area of the campaign world where your Archivist is hanging out. If those classes aren't present in sufficient numbers to make scrolls available, being an Archivist doesn't provide you much advantage over Cleric. I have played them in both situations, and the difference is pretty dramatic.

[eggs]

I think Sacred Exorcist is assumed to be in play here.
At that point, I'd say, Archivist easy. With Divine Insight/Guidance of the Avatar, neither will probably care about skill points, and between Arrowsplit, easy Polymorph and Persistent Hunter's Eye, I think the Archivist has way more than it needs to make up for the cleric's extra 1-2 feats.

[Zubrowka74]

Human Cloistered Cleric - With Zen Archery I am Wis SAD** and the human bonus feat makes up for the cost of Zen Archery. I don't have access to Ranger spells,

Why would you want the ranger's spells when you already have the cleric's ?

[Vizzerdrix]

Why would you want the ranger's spells when you already have the cleric's ?

Go look at the ranger spells in Champions of Ruin. Go ahead, we'll wait...

[Zubrowka74]

Go look at the ranger spells in Champions of Ruin. Go ahead, we'll wait...

AFB, that's why I'm asking.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

Go look at the ranger spells in Champions of Ruin. Go ahead, we'll wait...

Yeah, that was the main reason I considered Archivist. I just wanted to see if there were spells that good in other books. Just imagine some of them with Persist + Raptor Arrows.

[Lanaya]

AFB, that's why I'm asking.

Well I've never used any of them myself, but the ones that appear to be pretty good are arrowsplit (basically 1d4 extra shots on your next attack) and spellslayer arrow (1d4 extra damage for each magical effect on the target), with arrowsplit coming out as the clear victor, especially since you can have it by level 5 with an archivist.

[eggs]

AFB, that's why I'm asking.
Arrowsplit is 1d4 extra attacks as a swift action, a few others add effects to arrows like extra damage or Hold Monster as swift actions. And in other sources there are options like Hunter's Eye (persistable sneak attack), Foebane (like Holy Sword, but with a specified Bane) and pretty much every Arcane Archer power beside Imbue.

[Corwin_of_Amber]

As an Archivist, assuming I do not get domain spells (such as invisibility from Trickery), what spells can I use to reliably get SA from Hunter's Eye?

Also, any other spell suggestions?

[eggs]

Anything that grapples/blinds/panics/paralyzes/stuns or forces balance/climb rolls.

I like summons, but spells like Ice Slick, Blinding Spittle or Evil Glare could also work.

Or just snipe really hard from afar. Sniper's Shot takes the range cap off of SA, so it can work without getting the archer dragged into melee by the end of round 1.

[Metahuman1]

It's worth pointing out that Planer Touchstone + DLCS Sun Domain + Night Sticks can give you all the turn undead you need to fuel Devotion Feat's or DMM. Same I believe with one of the Unseelie Fey Seasonal Powers + Nightsticks if you DM will allow the template.


And while some Raptor arrows are nice, you really want to have Hanks Energy Bow and only use the arrows when you need certain specific tricks at any given time. Combine with Divine Power and a couple of solid Str Boosting Spells and Power attack for best results.

[Piggy Knowles]

As an Archivist, assuming I do not get domain spells (such as invisibility from Trickery), what spells can I use to reliably get SA from Hunter's Eye?


You don't need domain spells to get Invisibility as an archivist - the adept (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm) gets it on its spell list, and as adepts are theoretically the most common spellcasters around, it should be pretty easy to get a scroll of it. (This is also a nice way to pick up goodies like Polymorph, Mirror Image, Web, and Minor/Major Creation).

But yeah, as was already mentioned, there are a ton of spells that can help you out in this regard just off the cleric or druid list. Ice Slick is always a personal favorite of mine. And don't forget that, as an archivist, eventually you will be able stun/daze enemies just by making a knowledge check.

EDIT: Also, here is my own list of spells off the ranger's list that make an archer archivist so potentially deadly, pulled from another thread where someone had a similar question:

Arrow Mind, Hunter's Mercy, Exacting Shot, Guided Shot, Sniper's Shot, Swift Haste (which is persistable!), Arrow Storm, Doublestrike Arrow and Find the Gap

[eggs]

Same I believe with one of the Unseelie Fey Seasonal Powers + Nightsticks if you DM will allow the template.
Does that template have explicit LA?

[Urpriest]

Does that template have explicit LA?

Implicit LA. The example character with it is a gnome with explicit LA +0. The template itself has no LA entry.

[Metahuman1]

Far as I know it's an LA 0 Template, though a badly balanced one that Many DM's won't allow for balance/source reasons.


Plus, you also may have to ask about waving the extra sense and the Evil restrition, depending on what you roll for the senses. (Some of them make you loose sight.) Though dropping that and maybe the wings might help if the DM feels it's over powered.

[eggs]

Implicit LA. The example character with it is a gnome with explicit LA +0. The template itself has no LA entry.

Far as I know it's an LA 0 Template, though a badly balanced one that Many DM's won't allow for balance/source reasons.
Neat! That's a fun template to know about then, if not to use.

[Elric VIII]

Flat-footing compendium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186283). This contains a bunch of ways to get people to become flat-footed/lose dex to AC.