Making an empire

[dantiesilva]

Now after reading the Inheritance cycle a while back I began thinking of making an army focusing on the riders in their golden age before humans were allowed in. Their were the Town guards ( the only thing I had an idea of for a build), The low level military, and then the riders themselves. What I couldn't think of was how I would incorporate clerics and spellcasters into this though without gestalt rules, after all every elf in the Inheritance cycle can use magic. Please any ideas and help would be appreciated.

This is the idea I had for the town guard so their is a basic idea

Fighter 3/ Marshal 2/ Dragon samurai 5
Riding on a Horned felldrake from level 5 to 9.
Riding a Spitting felldrake from level 3 to 5.
And riding a Spiked felldrake at level 10 which is like the height of the town guard.

I was thinking of having the low level military starting of with Horned felldrakes and moving up to wyverns, being as their level cap is 15, while the riders start of on Wyverns and move up to dragons, is their anyway at all this could be possible? Riders all have at least on level of the noble class it was the only way I could think of why they were so much better than the rest. Please playground help me.

[GnomeGninjas]

To give them magic give them all one level in adapt. Since they have a level in a npc class their challenge rating = Class levels-1. You don't make them all that more powerful or need to give more experience for them being killed but it give's them a bit more hit points and magical flavor.

[dantiesilva]

So basically make an invisible level, that even though it is there it does not count towards what level they are? That could work, And thus making 2 levels of a NPC class=1 level normally. If that is what you are saying thank you alot because that actually is brilliant. But still leaves the problem of the actual healers in the army now and how I would fit those in. Is the class Healer from the Miniatures handbook considered a NPC class? And more importantly what would be a good idea for a squad( as in how many of what they have in to equal one group of NPC's). I'm thinking one healer and one spellcaster per squad ( The spellcaster having one level of warrior to give them some battle training). Any ideas on this?

[dantiesilva]

Also how would I make a build that goes with the dragon theme for low level military? Make the uber charger? While giving the healers marshal levels?

[Wyntonian]

Dragon shaman is a little meh, and doesn't get spellcasting, but could work, I guess.

Dragonfire Adept is in a similar boat, but is less disappointing.

I haven't read the books in a long time, but I remember thinking that Psionics might work better than vancian spellcasting.

[dantiesilva]

Yes it would but also comes into the problem the book series did. Store energy of 1,000 years in one gem, give to your kid who is level one, instant kill button. Much better then the spellcasting of D&D hands down, but also easier to break. I will take that into consideration though weigh the pros and cons. The dragon fire stuff I fell personal is a weaker version of a marshal. Could be wrong though like you I have not read the books in a while.

Any other suggestions anyone?

And just by looking at one spell without bonus points at level 3 you can do 11d4 damage with one power...Thats scary. Sure you can't do anything after that for the rest of the day but still.

I'm probably going to have to make this gestalt, where all elfs automatically gain a level from a psionic class of their choice. So Now I make elf a LA +1 race to make up for how much more powerful an elf is compared to a human or dwarf which would get a martial level of their choice.

[whibla]

And just by looking at one spell without bonus points at level 3 you can do 11d4 damage with one power...Thats scary. Sure you can't do anything after that for the rest of the day but still.

I'm curious as to which ability you're thinking of here. While I do think the 'overpowering' of psionic abilities is perhaps a little 'overpowered' (hmm, odd that :smallredface:) it does tend to balance out, as you noted, in how many times you can use that ability in a day. However, since "The maximum number of points you can spend on a power (for any reason) is equal to your manifester level" a 3rd level manifester cannot overpower his 2nd level powers, and can only spend up to 2 additional power points on a 1st level power. It may be possible to do 11d4 with a power at 3rd level but I'm not seeing it myself. Even the, imo, most overpowered 2nd level power, Energy Missile, only does 3d6, save for half, albeit against up to 5 opponents. Which power are you looking at?

[dantiesilva]

Swarm of crystals. Deals 3d4 damage starting off. Because of the rule you just stated that i was not aware of deals 6d4 at 3rd level. Thats still pretty good fora total of 6 pp used out of a base of 11.

[Gavinfoxx]

Fighter....3...??

Blargh.

Anyway, the best way to do guards and armies and soldiers and stuff is to make sure, as much as possible, that people have supernatural abilities, extra movement modes, and access to high quality animals.

Whether you are restricted to NPC classes or just low tier classes, you want to go for supernatural abilities as much as possible. After all, the more variety of supernatural abilities (ie, spells) in one area, the more people can make various sorts of magic items by working together, which are force multipliers.

Now, what matters most is what your *constraints* are. Talk to the DM!

Are NPC classes cheaper to make than non npc classes? Are higher tier classes more expensive to make? Are spellcasting classes harder to make? What about animals? Warbeasts? Magebred animals? What are costs? What is the price of various options for training? What about levels? What about retraining? What about poisons? What about rebuilding (phb II)?

After all, an Expert can be a competent martial artist character at level 3 or so (Iaijutsu focus, Feycraft Gnomish Quickrazor, Education, Knowledge Devotion), and those might be cheaper than (say) an inferior monk. And Religious Adepts are an EXTREMELY competent class, and are an NPC class to boot.

Basically, you want to minimize things without class features or useful skills, like "Fighters". and maximize things with class features, and useful skills, like "Factotums" or "Psychic Warriors" or "Dragonfire Adept" or "Barbarian".

[dantiesilva]

I am the DM. The fighter is in their for the mounted feats. Because of elfs automatically gaining a Psion level for each level they have magic is covered just about. Dragon fire adept could work, but would then also step on the toes of the dragon samurai which does mostly the same thing.

Dragon samurai
1Dragon breath ends at 5d6
1 Resist energy 10
2 Dragon friend (+4 bonus on Cha skill checks with chosen dragon color)
3 Immunity to dragon fear
4Elemental weapon +1d6

Dragon fire adept
1 Breath weapon 2d6
1 Dragon touched (feat)
1 Least invocations
2 breath effect
2 Scales +2

With this breath weapons stack for damage

Fighter
1 Ride by attack
2 Sprinted charge
3 Nothing

With this you do massive amounts of damage with your lance.

Both do have their place, but a city guard who is already riding on a drake to boot. Does it need much more? I understand optimized, but at the same time making it so that if the PCs are in the way when he sneezes they die is a bit much. You also have to think The two levels of marshal also grant boosts to a certain thing depending on what auras are chosen and how high the cha is. Add in the 10 levels of some kind of psion, Probably psyonic warrior or soulblade, as well as the one free level of adept that does not even show up. I think them fighter levels aren't going to hurt at all.

[Gavinfoxx]

How about something like this...

Tech level 1 Cavalry:
Human Warrior 1 with a Lance and Sling and Morningstar and Leather armor on a Light Warhorse and Mounted Combat, with a Riding Saddle.

Tech level 2 Cavalry: Human Fighter 1 with Hide Armor with a Lance, Cavalry Saber, and Shortbow, on a Military Saddle, with Mounted Combat and Ride By Attack, on a Heavy Warhorse with Leather Barding.

Tech level 3 Cavalry: Human Barbarian 1/Fighter 1 with with a Lance, Cavalry Saber, Buckler, Composite Longbow (as Recurve bow), Brigandine Armor, on a Military Saddle that is a Masterwork tool of Ride, with Mounted Combat and Ride By Attack, on a Heavy Warhorse with Hide Barding.

------ There is a big impasse, going from tech 3 to tech 4 is a BIG deal and is going to require MAJOR MAJOR work, you might be functionally focusing the military efforts your society to this track or task by making this choice, and there would be opportunity cost to doing so, ie, your infantry isn't as good, your mage corps or priesthood might not be as good, your logistics may have to focus on supplying these sorts of people over others, your social order has these people placed highly, etc. etc.; going beyond this point is an 'all in' sort of thing... ------

Tech Level 4 Cavalry: Human Whirling Frenzy & Pounce Barbarian 1/Fighter1/Warrior 1 with a Mwk Lance, Mwk Cavalry Saber, Mwk Buckler, Mwk Breastplate, Mwk Composite Longbow, on a Military Flyer's Saddle that is a Masterwork tool of ride, with Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack on a Dire Bat or Glidewing with Mwk Studded Leather Barding.

Tech Level 5 Cavalry: Human Whirling Frenzy & Pounce Barbarian1/Fighter1/Psychic Warrior 2 with Mwk Lance, Mwk Cavalry Saber, Mwk Buckler, Mwk Breastplate with riding straps, Mwk Composite Longbow, on a Military Flyer's Saddle that is a Masterwork tool of ride, with Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Spirited Charge, Power Attack, Mounted Archery, Improved Mounted Archery, with Offensive Precognition and Offensive Prescience powers, on a Warbeast Dire Eagle with Mwk Chain Shirt Barding.

[dantiesilva]

Look up...Talking about elfs....Only thing not mentioned is a feat every two levels

Level 1
Fighter 1//Psion class
Lance short sword short bow
Horse is fine for now
Feats
Mounted combat
Ride by attack

Level 2
Fighter 2//Psion class 2
Lance Longsword Crossbow
Horse still fine
Feats
Sprinted charge
Trample

level 3
Fighter 2/Marshal 1//Psion class 3
Lance Scimitar Longbow
Spitting felldrake


Level 4
Fighter 3/ Marshal 1//Psion class 4
MWK lance MWK Saber Composite shortbow
Spitting felldrake
Feat
Power attack Or weapon focus lance

Level 5
Fighter 3/ MArshal 2//Psion class 5
Mwk lance MWK Scimitar Composite longbow
Horned felldrake

Next would bring him into the Dragon samurai

[dantiesilva]

Look up...Talking about elfs....Only thing not mentioned is a feat every two levels

Level 1
Fighter 1//Psion class
Lance short sword short bow
Horse is fine for now
Feats
Mounted combat
Ride by attack

Level 2
Fighter 2//Psion class 2
Lance Longsword Crossbow
Horse still fine
Feats
Sprinted charge
Trample

level 3
Fighter 2/Marshal 1//Psion class 3
Lance Scimitar Longbow
Spitting felldrake


Level 4
Fighter 3/ Marshal 1//Psion class 4
MWK lance MWK Saber Composite shortbow
Spitting felldrake
Feat
Power attack Or weapon focus lance

Level 5
Fighter 3/ MArshal 2//Psion class 5
Mwk lance MWK Scimitar Composite longbow
Horned felldrake

Next would bring him into the Dragon samurai

I love the idea you are going with but the problem is its elfs and they live side by side with dragons, its what I put in the OP

[Gavinfoxx]

Never get Fighter 3 unless you desperately need Fighter 4 for some reason.

So Fighter 2/Barbarian (with ACF's) 1 is better. And why are you going gestalt?

And why the focus on big mean mounts? Generally, the cheapest mounts which can get you air superiority, and the classes which get you sufficient archery feats and melee feats (that's why I used barbarian with fighter with psychic warrior; lots of feats for what was needed), is more efficient. Think of it in what sorts of resources have to be spent to enable such a force, and how to get the most for the least amount of resources expended. After all, a Glidewing gets you air travel for 800 gp.

[dantiesilva]

And I cant see a town guard needing to fly. As for the most with the least amount of resources well the lance only changes once, sword a few times, bow every time, but that can be made to only once. The mount being a spitting fell drake easy saying their town guards ( after all cops don't buy their police cars) same to be said for horned drakes.

For archery I personally would go more ranger scout based that way not only do I get free feats but I could also get extra bonuses. Or at low levels a warmage. Think about 20 first level warmages all firing acid splash at the same area using the arrow volley rules.

[dantiesilva]

And for the gestalt it is posted above

[Gavinfoxx]

A town guard probably shouldn't be above 2nd level.

They primarily need a few skills:

Firefighting
Peacekeeping and crowd control
Sentry/Awareness
Being Easy to Train
Being Useful in a Crisis

And then wayyyy lower than that, is:

Some sort of fighting ability, especially from behind city walls with a ranged weapon.

I would consider them mostly a skill-focused class, maybe with some spells. They certainly don't need to be cavalry in any way, shape, or form; infantry is superior for town guard sorts of things.

So, some possible classes for that sort of thing include:

Ranger, and with useful ACF's
Savant
Scout
Rogue
Psychic Rogue
Bard
Factotum

[dantiesilva]

Military run government. Even the common people are having at least five levels. Two of which dealing with some kind of fighting. This is the race that is the most dominant in the known world, hell the fact that they have people who actually ride on dragons tells you that they are not push overs. As such they need power behind them. Level 1 and 2 guards for most civilizations is good if they are not military led, but for one that is I see a much higher level of town guard.

I do not need help fixing the build I already have, what I need is for the low level military and the riders themselves. The low level military starts of at level 5 and goes to level 15 where they reach their height and ride on wyverns. What they ride leading up to The Wyverns I have no idea, I think they should ride nothing because they raise their mounts personally until they are big enough to be ridden, but I do see how to some that could be a problem. As for Build ideas, literally no idea, maybe an ubermount build that is still useful before the mount becomes ride able. Same can be said for the actual riders that Start of from levels 10 and max out at 20. I know they need to be focused now in many things, but as to what to use, no idea.

This is what I am looking for. If people want to make the healers of each group and the spellcasters, that is perfectly fine. But the "Fighting" Based guards are not being changed.

[dantiesilva]

For the low to mid level military can someone give me a simple yet elegant ubermount build that wont be so overpowered that the dragon rider 5 levels higher will have a hard time beating it? The dragon rider would be nice to.

[GnomeGninjas]

Since NPC classes (see Chapter 5: Campaigns) are weaker than PC classes, levels in an NPC class contribute less to a creature's CR than levels in a PC class. For an NPC with an NPC class, determine her challenge rating as if she had a PC class with one less level.

This is the thing about NPC classes having lower challenge rating.

[dantiesilva]

So no build ideas?