How do I Werewolf?

[Wyntonian]

So, for an upcoming gestalt game* I'm planning to take levels in the WotC Werewolf Lord (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) Class. My build as of now is as follows:

Shifter (not sure what kind, yet, I'm AFB on my Eberron stuff)

PounceBarian 1/Werewolf Lord 6/Warshaper 4/Rogue 1//Fighter 6/Frenzied Berserker 6.

Now, I've never so much as played a totemist, so I'm not sure how natural attacks work, exactly. However, with this character, I have four stat-boosting things floating around; Shifting, Raging, Frenzying and wolf/hybrid form. How do I go about managing these with a minimum of bookkeeping?

Also, why would anyone willingly choose to go into animal form in combat? You lose the reach you'd otherwise get for being Large and the ability to use manufactured weapons. Is it the speed difference? Is that that big of a deal?


So, questions.


How would wielding a two-handed weapon (yay Improved PA) interact with natural weapons for the purposes of Str bonuses to each and iterative attacks?

If I go Razorclaw Shifter and get claw attacks as well as a bite, would Warshaper's Morphic Weapons let me increase the size of those? How does this compare to wielding a 2H weapon in terms of damage, considering that I'll have Str out the... face... and IPA.

Do I need to get multiattack somewhere in there to reduce the penalty on my secondary naturals?

Speaking of natural weapons, does Warshaper really let me get as many as I want?

For equipment, do I need special enchantments to allow me to keep wearing it in hybrid form, or is that unnecessary?

Is there any reason for me to not get Full Plate with my Fighter proficiencies?

I'll have 15 foot reach in hybrid form, would it be worthwhile to get combat reflexes? I have essentially Improved Trip from Werewolf Lord, I could get pretty scary that way,


*Premise is that the players are all evil creatures of some description who have received a chance for redemption by working for Heironeous in a "Suicide Squad". Everyone's taking monster classes or some such.

[Urpriest]

You need to take at least one level of the Werewolf Template Class before taking levels of Werewolf Lord.

Animal form is more about utility, really. Looking like a normal (Dire) wolf has its advantages.

If you wield a weapon, your natural weapons all become secondary attacks, taking -5 to hit (-2 with Multiattack, which you'll probably pick up since you're a Shifter) and getting only 1/2 Str to damage. If you wield a two-handed weapon most DMs will make you give up at least one of your claw attacks, if not both. There's no hard and fast rule about it though.

You'll be able to use your Warshaper abilities on your Shifter natural weapons, yes. You can also use Warshaper to make your own new natural weapons, you'll need your DM to set a limit since otherwise you can do this indefinitely and attack with as many tentacles as you have had move actions during downtime to spawn. Without this sort of cheese a two-handed weapon will generally deal better damage, though note that you will generally be able to use at least your bite when wielding a two-handed weapon, if not your claws. Note also the existence of Mouthpick Weapons (Lords of Madness) which will let you use your bite to wield a weapon, keeping your claws free.

You want Multiattack, or rather Shifter Multiattack (as Multiattack, and counts as a Shifter Feat).

If you remain the same size, the equipment stays. You don't though, so while things like cloaks and belts will resize, your armor by default will not. There are a variety of ways to get around this which aren't coming to mind at the moment. Your Lycanthropy doesn't have a duration, though, so you can just run around in hybrid form.

Except for the sizing issue mentioned above, full plate is fine.

Combat Reflexes would probably be good, yeah. Extra attacks are always nice.

[Wyntonian]

I was hoping you'd post! Thanks!


You need to take at least one level of the Werewolf Template Class before taking levels of Werewolf Lord.

How do you figure? I had an extra level there anyway, I guess, but I don't see why that's the case.

NeoSeraphi told me about a Shifter Feat, Great Bite, that I don't currently have access to. I understand that it somehow effects str bonuses on natural attacks. Considering that my Str will be pretty insane, does that change anything about going with just naturals?

[Urpriest]

From the page you linked:


The animal class is entirely optional. No would-be lycanthrope is required to take it, but doing so is an advantage, since a character without it is weaker than other lycanthropes of the same type. Taking levels in the appropriate animal template class gives the character the animal's Hit Dice and hit points (in all forms), saving throw bonuses (in all forms), skill points (in all forms), racial skill bonuses (in all forms), conditional skill modifiers (in animal form), ability score modifiers (in hybrid or animal form), natural armor bonus, and special attacks (such as the wolf's trip). Levels in the animal class may be taken at any point after the character takes one level in the lycanthrope template class. He is also free to take levels in other classes between levels of the template class and the animal class, as desired. The animal class, like the template class, does not count when determining whether a character takes an XP penalty for multiclassing.

The "Werewolf Lord" class is a bunch of Dire Wolf HD, you need to be a Lycanthrope to take it. Note that the Werewolf Lord class by itself gives you no ability to shapeshift.

Great Bite changes the crit multiplier, so it isn't really that great in this context. I don't think there's anything that can make a secondary natural attack deal full Str (besides getting some way to flurry with it, since weapons in a flurry always deal full Str).

[Worira]

It's pretty simple, really. First, you skin a wolf.

Then, you Were it.

[SilverClawShift]

It's pretty simple, really. First, you skin a wolf.

Then, you Were it.

I hate you.

I literally came here just to say that.

Though I was going to add a step. Clean it...

[JeminiZero]

If you remain the same size, the equipment stays.

Actually I'm not too sure about this point. Looking at the sample Lycanthropes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm), whenever they shift into hybrid form, even when that form is the same size as their humanoid form, they apparently lose whatever armor they were wearing. They do keep their weapons though.

As mentioned, you could stay in hybrid form ALL DAY. With the addendum that you should only put on armor after you've assumed that form, and then it should stay there.

Swordsage Edit:


I hate you.

I literally came here just to say that.

Though I was going to add a step. Clean it...

But now that you're here... in a thread that conveniently talks about shapeshifting... :smalltongue:

[Wyntonian]

Ok... So I get a suit of Large full plate, and only put it on while in hybrid form? There HAS to be an easier way than that. Enchantments? Wilding Clasps?

[JeminiZero]

Ok... So I get a suit of Large full plate, and only put it on while in hybrid form? There HAS to be an easier way than that. Enchantments? Wilding Clasps?

Wildling clasp specifically only works with Wildshape (Lycan Alternate Form does not qualify by RAW, but check with DM).

The enchantment for wildshape armor is called beastskin (MiC 7), but also specifically only works with Wildshape.

I was going to suggest Psychoactive Skin of Extoplasmic Armor, but the text specifies only medium or smaller creatures.

If donning time is a concern, maybe get a Called Armor (MiC 9) for +2k gp.

[Urpriest]

Actually I'm not too sure about this point. Looking at the sample Lycanthropes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm), whenever they shift into hybrid form, even when that form is the same size as their humanoid form, they apparently lose whatever armor they were wearing. They do keep their weapons though.

As mentioned, you could stay in hybrid form ALL DAY. With the addendum that you should only put on armor after you've assumed that form, and then it should stay there.


The SRD has this to say about alternate form:

Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

Ok, so actually the situation is even better: the armor will change size automatically.

[Wyntonian]

So, I'm good? I'm seeing nothing to suggest that Hybrids can't wear armor. The only thing that worried me was the size change, and apparently that's not an issue

[Marnath]

The SRD has this to say about alternate form:


Ok, so actually the situation is even better: the armor will change size automatically.

According to the monster manual their gear is not affected and they do not regain hp when they shift.

[Wyntonian]

Yeah, but warshaper 4 gives me Fast Healing 2. I'm pretty much good on the healing front.

[JeminiZero]

The SRD has this to say about alternate form:

Perhaps I should rephrase my point: The SRD for Lycanthropes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm) always lists their hybrid form without the armor which their humanoid entries have. Therefore, it seems to suggest that Lycanthrope hybrids are unable to wear standard Humanoid armor (despite their humanoid-ish shape). The fact they keep their weapons implies that this was an intentional ommision (rather than WOTC merely forgetting to give them any equipment).


So, I'm good? I'm seeing nothing to suggest that Hybrids can't wear armor.

Again, what the SRD seems to suggest is that Hybrids CAN wear armor. Just NOT armor for humanoids. (Which also implies that humanoids cannot wear hyrid armor). So your solution is the same as before: Buy Called armor customized for hybrid shape, when you shift to humanoid form , it falls to the ground. When you shift back to hybrid form, you can activate the called property to have it materialize on yon.

[Gavinfoxx]

I know this isnt exactly relevant to the OP...

But to answer the question to 'how do I werewolf', the question is answered (and for any other wereX), here:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4398.0

[Wyntonian]

Cleared with DM on grounds of A. I'm also a warshaper, and we figure that if I can grow N tentacles, where N is the number of move actions available, then I should be able to fit into a suit of armor.

and B. No rules really say I can't.

[Urpriest]

Perhaps I should rephrase my point: The SRD for Lycanthropes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lycanthrope.htm) always lists their hybrid form without the armor which their humanoid entries have. Therefore, it seems to suggest that Lycanthrope hybrids are unable to wear standard Humanoid armor (despite their humanoid-ish shape). The fact they keep their weapons implies that this was an intentional ommision (rather than WOTC merely forgetting to give them any equipment).


Eh, it could also simply be thematic. Stereotypical werewolves tend to avoid armor, and tend to have clothing damage etc. Unlike the way monsters lose claw attacks when they pick things up in their hands, this doesn't seem enough of a trend or sufficiently internally justified to really be clear-cut.

[Marnath]

Eh, it could also simply be thematic. Stereotypical werewolves tend to avoid armor, and tend to have clothing damage etc. Unlike the way monsters lose claw attacks when they pick things up in their hands, this doesn't seem enough of a trend or sufficiently internally justified to really be clear-cut.

The line in the monster manual about their gear not transforming with them isn't good enough?

[Urpriest]

The line in the monster manual about their gear not transforming with them isn't good enough?

Not when that line was explicitly removed by errata, no.