[PF] Adjusted Balor CR

[Gimur]

This is mainly a question out of curiosity, for those with a better grasp of CR than myself.
In a session last week, my adventuring party took down a Balor. Though, to be fair, the DM adjusted it a little bit to give us a better chance, not to mention gave us a pretty ridiculous artifact to use on him... He didn't want to one-shot us, but definitely wanted us to fear for our lives.

Anyway, the link to the original Balor: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/balor

The DM removed:
-Vorpal enchant on weapons
-Fire Storm
-Implosion
-Power Word Stun (Poor Wizard only has 49 health. Low Con, and pretty low HP rolls)
-At-Will Telekinesis (3 Quickened Telekinesis wasn't removed)

In light of this, what kind of CR adjustment would this do to the Balor?

[Thump]

The Balor is massively under-CR'ed IMO, simply because of it's at will Dominate Monster, hard to overcome DR, and it's killer melee plus fire damage while grappling. This thing can ginsu anything with HD under a Barbarian's if it rolls half-decent, and it can just Dominate anything with a weak will save. It also has greater teleport at will, and even if you somehow manage to kill it, the Wizard is screwed if he fails his Reflex save (and within 100 feet of the Balor), which he probably will, and even if he passes, he's going to go to -1 HP and start bleeding. Any other party members that are wounded (Fighter, I'm looking at you) are going to be smashed in the end.

It'll still probably be CR 19-20.

Also, Blasphemy+Unholy Aura.

Definitely still CR 20.

EDIT: Also, the unnamed artifact probably helped. Out of curiosity, what was the APL of the party?

[Blisstake]

Vorpal is what makes them the scariest, in my opinion. Most of the people in my party usually end up having ridiculous saves where his spells don't even matter.

I dunno, I'd put it at CR 19

[Starbuck_II]

This is mainly a question out of curiosity, for those with a better grasp of CR than myself.
In a session last week, my adventuring party took down a Balor. Though, to be fair, the DM adjusted it a little bit to give us a better chance, not to mention gave us a pretty ridiculous artifact to use on him... He didn't want to one-shot us, but definitely wanted us to fear for our lives.

Anyway, the link to the original Balor: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/demon/balor

The DM removed:
-Vorpal enchant on weapons
-Fire Storm
-Implosion
-Power Word Stun (Poor Wizard only has 49 health. Low Con, and pretty low HP rolls)
-At-Will Telekinesis (3 Quickened Telekinesis wasn't removed)

In light of this, what kind of CR adjustment would this do to the Balor?

CR 18 maybe.
I mean it has decent hp, SR, speed, hit, and AC.
Death throws is only 1/2 fire. You need fire resist 50! or Protection from energy spell cast to not be badly damaged by it (still even with protections, taking 50 damage if fail reflex will hurt).

Did you guys realize he uses fire and use Protection from fire?
Vorpal while scary is only on nat 20s.

[mucco]

I was about to write a post explaining why the un-nerfed Balor is max CR 16 when the party is optimized, but then I remember it's PF.

So, I have no clue. :smallbiggrin: But it looks to me that a Fighter 17, with an attack roll of 17+10(Str)+5(weapon)+4(class features)+4(from feats)=+40, plus buffs, can disarm both weapons of a Balor with ease, forcing him to use up move actions to regain them. Also, vorpal in PF has to be a confirmed crit so AC will help a lot against it.

The Balor will have lots of problems casting his SLAs in melee, too. And a cleric with Magic Circle can disrupt summons and/or dominated allies.

Squishy characters can be effective at more than 100 feet away, and so on.

[Starbuck_II]

I was about to write a post explaining why the un-nerfed Balor is max CR 16 when the party is optimized, but then I remember it's PF.

So, I have no clue. :smallbiggrin: But it looks to me that a Fighter 17, with an attack roll of 17+10(Str)+5(weapon)+4(class features)+4(from feats)=+40, plus buffs, can disarm both weapons of a Balor with ease, forcing him to use up move actions to regain them. Also, vorpal in PF has to be a confirmed crit so AC will help a lot against it.

The Balor will have lots of problems casting his SLAs in melee, too. And a cleric with Magic Circle can disrupt summons and/or dominated allies.

Squishy characters can be effective at more than 100 feet away, and so on.
Disarms need to hit 54 to diarm (CMD). So you have a 30% success (need a 14)? Doesm't seem very ease.
Which improved disarm is +2, you have greater too?

Remember this is PF, we don't do maneuvers (not because they are complicated anymore but because everyone defends vs them easily)

[Blisstake]

Vorpal while scary is only on nat 20s.


With all its attacks per round, and good defenses, a natural 20 will come up sooner or later. Or if you're using my DM dice :smallbiggrin:

[mucco]

Disarms need to hit 54 to diarm (CMD). So you have a 30% success (need a 14)? Doesm't seem very ease.
Which improved disarm is +2, you have greater too?

Remember this is PF, we don't do maneuvers (not because they are complicated anymore but because everyone defends vs them easily)

I'm assuming both weapon focus feats. Also, it's before buffs. A fighter might have cast on him spells like Haste, Greater Heroism, Heroic Fortune, say an Elemental Body III (earth) via Greater Polymorph. That would be another +8 to attack rolls, and a one-time +8. That's just by taking a quick look, I don't know PF spells well. I don't know why people diss maneuvers, really. Disarm pretty much disables the Balor. The fighter will have iteratives to retry, and it's level 17. You need some effort but it's so much worth it.

[Blisstake]

You can also attempt a disarm for each attack you get, so it's not that horrible.

[Gimur]

Thanks for the replies, guys!
I would have replied sooner, but alas, my Kindle doesn't want to cooperate with this site, and I didn't get access to a PC until just now. :smallannoyed:

It was a party of 3 Lvl 13 PCs, and 1 Lvl 12 temporary DMPC. A Priest, Enchantment Wizard (gave up Illusion and Necro), and a Two-Bladed Sword wielding Fighter were the PCs, and the Paladin DMPC that was mainly there to protect the casters from direct assaults.

The artifact was kind of ridiculous imho. On a successful ranged touch attack with it:
-Turn off DR, Immunities, Resistances, and SR for 1d3 rounds for any Demon
-5d6 Force damage, with knockback of up to 10', for max damage
-Interrupts any spell being cast, if it was used as a prepared action
-Disables any attempts to Teleport or use Mind-Affecting spells, AND
-Stun for 1 round
Thankfully, it had a 30 second "cooldown", and we have a houserule where both attack AND defense are rolled, so there was ~40% to miss, and still start the cooldown.

And, we were quite prepared for the Fire damage. Had Protection from Fire AND Resist Fire up on everyone. And both melee's were buffed to near absurdity, since both the Wizard and I were aware of the SR we had little chance of surpassing.
And, to escape the Death Throes, both the Wizard and I climbed up into a Rope Trick while the Fighter was finishing him off. No worries there. :smallamused: With Fire Resist 30, along with over 130 health before the Balor died, there was no worries there.