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Craft (Cheese)
2012-06-29, 04:04 PM
How are LGBT characters treated in the Empire? If the setting books even have anything to say on it, that is. I'll make something up if I have to, but I'd prefer to stick to canon if possible.

Ashtagon
2012-06-29, 05:13 PM
I believe they are considered to be Slaanesh cultists by the Empire.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-06-29, 06:09 PM
I believe they are considered to be Slaanesh cultists by the Empire.

That's... a lot worse than I expected, honestly. One of my players wants to be a secretly bisexual Disciple of Sigmar, but that's gonna be... difficult. Thanks for the answer though.

The Glyphstone
2012-06-29, 07:03 PM
That's... a lot worse than I expected, honestly. One of my players wants to be a secretly bisexual Disciple of Sigmar, but that's gonna be... difficult. Thanks for the answer though.

It's Warhammer. One of the few 'bright' spots is that everyone gets treated more-or-less equally (I.e., like pond scum). It could be great for story drama, if they have to hide their urges to avoid being considered a deviant Chaos-worshipper (or, possibly, become an ACTUAL Chaos-worshipper in the search for people who will accept them for who they are)...

Craft (Cheese)
2012-06-29, 07:15 PM
It could be great for story drama, if they have to hide their urges to avoid being considered a deviant Chaos-worshipper (or, possibly, become an ACTUAL Chaos-worshipper in the search for people who will accept them for who they are)...

Oh, I definitely agree: Even better, they have to choose between their (legitimate) devotion to Sigmar and the Empire and being true to themselves. But I still want to talk to him about it: That might not be what he's interested in playing.


Actually, an aside I just thought about: Do priests of the imperial cults normally take vows of chastity?

LongVin
2012-06-29, 07:58 PM
Oh, I definitely agree: Even better, they have to choose between their (legitimate) devotion to Sigmar and the Empire and being true to themselves. But I still want to talk to him about it: That might not be what he's interested in playing.


Actually, an aside I just thought about: Do priests of the imperial cults normally take vows of chastity?

hmmm...not sure if it explicitly stated but considering that the church of sigmar is based on a early rennaisance level europe's catholic church there would probably be a general level of chasity with it being ignored to various degrees depending on place and time. "You don't have to be chaste, you just need to appear chaste."

Ashtagon
2012-06-29, 11:39 PM
Thinking about it, the only sexual references at all are:

* Slaanesh cultists have an "anyone and anything goes" attitude.
* All other references to human sexuality appear to imply either heterosexuality only or chastity. Given the target market, this is perhaps to be expected. You can have any amount of blood, horror, and gore when selling to teens, but woe betide you if there's any hint of sexuality that isn't described as being the enemy.
* Skaven females are described as semi-sentient broodmares.
* Elves (wood, high, and dark) seem to be areas where bisexuality could be tolerated. Elves in the Empire would also be sufficiently rare that an elf and their same-sex travelling companion could be explained away as just being their strange and exotic culture.
* The Empire, despite its radical intolerance of pretty much anything, is rotten to the core. As long as it isn't public knowledge, they could get away with pretty much anything. Just because the common man would see an openly LGBT character as a cultist, doesn't mean they have to be.
* If you use the older 'dark' Bretonnia, certain cities there would probably have a gay quarter.

Acanous
2012-06-30, 02:38 AM
Warhammer is a place where setting>Character. This is intentional and part of the setting. You don't get to play a "Friendship is Magic" type character in Warhammer.

Let your player know that most nonstandard sexual practices are going to brand him a cultist, that people are openly looking for and executing others based on otherwise slight differences (Both physical and idealogical) and that the setting is not going to change to accomidate him.

On that note, if he is playing a bisexual, most of the same-gendered lovers he takes ARE going to be chaos cultists. Probably using his open-mindedness as a weakness to be exploited, to turn him from Sigmar.

This is just how the setting works. If he wants to play that way, let him be adequately warned.

Edit: If he decides to do this anyhow, and actually plays it? I'd award him bonus XP, or give him some sort of in-game benefitfor good roleplay.

If he just wants it to be a small part of his character, something that the DM doesn't mess with (IE: I have grey eyes) then tell him he can have it, but not to bring it up during play.
Being a good DM means sometimes stretching things to suit your players. But if one player is breaking immersion for the others? Something will need to be done. This is something that could break immersion for the other players, especially if they're well-versed in WH lore.

Advise your player that during non-WH games, they are totally cool to play any kind of nonstandard character. WH, however, does not reward things mutant, heretical, or deviant.

Eldan
2012-06-30, 03:33 AM
That is pretty much the problem, actually: expressing your individuality, in pretty much any way, tends to lead to Chaos.

Jack of Spades
2012-06-30, 06:33 AM
To echo the others, being openly gay (indeed, openly anything other than a straight WASP (WASS? WASI?)) will probably lead to one being branded as tainted by Slaanesh. But then again, if you have a temper and sunburn easily people will probably try to hang you as an awakening daemon of Khorne, and if you have any major, uncurable disease then you've already been blessed by Nurgle whether you are devoted to Sigmar or not.

Unfortunately, GW's canon doesn't really care about sex because it was all originally written for a wargame. It also really doesn't care about individuality or having any redeeming qualities in its characters because those things can just make it a bit sad when they die over and over again at 28mm scale. So, in general, assume that individuality is a sign of Chaos, because that was the easiest way to make sure that it wasn't weird canonically for almost every Imperial footsoldier to have the same stats.

On a historical note, someone please tell me if this is a misconception but in the late medieval age through to the Renaissance it was a fairly common thing for LGBT folk to join the church in order to have an easy excuse as to why they weren't interested in the opposite sex, and in that way avoided persecution by the masses. So, your player may have that motivation built in for having become a Disciple.

Ashtagon
2012-06-30, 12:22 PM
...

Actually, an aside I just thought about: Do priests of the imperial cults normally take vows of chastity?

There are just under a dozen separate cults in the Empire that are officially sanctioned. The exact rules within these regarding vows of chastity vary by cult. Priestesses (men generally don't get the calling for Shallya) of Shallya are expected to be chaste. Clergy of Taal/Rhya are expected to marry in order to be a living demonstration of the circle of life. Clergy of Mort tend not to marry for superstitious reasons. Sigmar's clergy varies; some orders specify chastity, while others permit marriage. I'm not aware of any sanctioned cult that permits a sexual relationship within its clergy outside of marriage.

Marriage doesn't exist in skaven society; the relationship is more akin to ownership. In earlier canon orc society, this is probably also true. In later canon, orcs reproduce in a similar fashion to mushrooms.

Marriage as Imperial humans understand it almost certainly exists in halfling and dwarf society, and is probably more stable and respected in those societies than in Imperial society.

I imagine elven society probably goes more for "long term informal partnerships" rather than marriage, although it would appear that marriage as a formal institution does exist for their kings and queens.

Chaos cultists probably think more in terms of how much does this help me advance my deity's goals.

I'm not sure the marriage customs of the Aztec Warrior Frogs are ever addressed.

If you can, get the WFRP 2e Tome of Salvation book. It goes into great detail on the sanctioned Warhammer cults.

Hel65
2012-06-30, 01:39 PM
There are just under a dozen separate cults in the Empire that are officially sanctioned. The exact rules within these regarding vows of chastity vary by cult. Priestesses (men generally don't get the calling for Shallya) of Shallya are expected to be chaste. Clergy of Taal/Rhya are expected to marry in order to be a living demonstration of the circle of life. Clergy of Mort tend not to marry for superstitious reasons. Sigmar's clergy varies; some orders specify chastity, while others permit marriage. I'm not aware of any sanctioned cult that permits a sexual relationship within its clergy outside of marriage.


Priests of Ulric are supposed to be chaste. It's a political thing the Church of Sigmar imposed via a friendly Emperor on Ulricans in the past (details in Ashes of Middenheim or Tome of Salvation, I think?)



Marriage as Imperial humans understand it almost certainly exists in halfling and dwarf society, and is probably more stable and respected in those societies than in Imperial society.


Dwarf marriage probably true, halfling marriage - not at all. In Sigmar's Heirs there's quite funny write-up of the Moot that, among other things, describes all festivals as halflings' favourite opportunities to have lots and lots of extramarital sex.



Chaos cultists probably think more in terms of how much does this help me advance my deity's goals.

Chaos cultists think in terms of satisfying their own personal needs. Its just the Chaos Gods rewarding the behaviours that further their own goals...

Ashtagon
2012-06-30, 01:43 PM
Dwarf marriage probably true, halfling marriage - not at all. In Sigmar's Heirs there's quite funny write-up of the Moot that, among other things, describes all festivals as halflings' favourite opportunities to have lots and lots of extramarital sex.

Perhaps. That's how halflings are written up. IN many ways, though, they are also written to be the comic relief, and there is a certain amount of "in-character bias" present in most every depiction of every culture group in WH. It's quite possible that the apparent halfling promiscuity is simply a result of halflings as seen through standard Imperial prejudice against anything a little bit foreign.

Jack of Spades
2012-06-30, 03:18 PM
I'm not sure the marriage customs of the Aztec Warrior Frogs are ever addressed.
They wouldn't really need any-- they reproduce via mass insemination of huge clutches of eggs. Kind of like bees, except with amphibian-style reproduction.

LCP
2012-06-30, 04:27 PM
I'm going to disagree with the developing consensus - there's very little exploration of sexual mores in the Empire in any of the canonical material. I'd say that as a GM you have a lot of freedom to extrapolate the sexual attitudes of the setting in a way you feel is consistent.

Yeah, WFRP's got a kind of historical feel, but it is manifestly not a historical fantasy. The cult of Sigmar is not the Catholic church, it just has some thematic similarities - it also has lots of important differences.

As a WFRP GM myself, I certainly wouldn't go all the way and give the people of the Empire a fully modern attitude towards homosexuality; at the same time, without a Leviticus or a St. Paul to draw upon, I don't think I'd make them quite as down on it as 17th-century Europe was. I think the fear of Slaanesh is a weak substitute for real-life anti-homosexual commandments; Slaanesh is just as keen on heterosexual stuff, and is also not just about sex. If you persecute and shun everything Slaanesh likes, you'd end up with a society with no art, no music, no-one but soldiers and blacksmiths and farmers frowning stern, joyless frowns. That's not the Empire - the Empire is established as having a fair bit of cultural diversity, with its fair share of decadence.

The Imperium in 40K is often portrayed as going to those extremes (that's what makes it fun - you know you're playing the KGB In Space), but I see the Empire as much less totalitarian and zealous. A lot of the Empire's subjects know very little about Chaos, other than that knowing too much about Chaos is a bad thing, and live lives of relative comfort. If you don't have that ignorance-is-bliss backdrop, the whole theme of Chaos cults as the unseen enemy within becomes a lot less fun to play with.

Particularly in the southern provinces and the big cities, I think my own choice would be to have it treated as something you kept discreetly quiet about, but for which people were not stoned to death or anything. Something between Victorian Europe and Ancient Greece. There's lots of stuff in the background about Nuln being a really decadent party town.

Craft (Cheese)
2012-06-30, 04:55 PM
Particularly in the southern provinces and the big cities, I think my own choice would be to have it treated as something you kept discreetly quiet about, but for which people were not stoned to death or anything. Something between Victorian Europe and Ancient Greece. There's lots of stuff in the background about Nuln being a really decadent party town.

Just dropped in to say this is the solution we settled upon: We decided his character hides his bisexuality due to personal shame, rather than it being a life-or-death matter. I've still not decided whether his "coming out" would endanger his status within the Cult of Sigmar, but for now as far as his in-character knowledge he doesn't know how his superiors would react to it.

Gonna crack open the Tome of Salvation later tonight; It sounds like a great resource for this sort of thing.

hewhosaysfish
2012-07-01, 06:30 AM
Sigmar's clergy varies; some orders specify chastity, while others permit marriage.

Nitpick: "Chastity" means only having sex on the terms permitted by your beliefs (which usually allows for sex within a marriage). It's "celibacy" which abstains from sex and marriage altogether.

Patsy
2012-07-01, 03:58 PM
I recall from one of the novels that a character from Tilea (fantasy renaissance Italy, basically) had a rather more relaxed attitude about this sort of thing: "love is love, what does it matter?" but the Imperials he was travelling with were just as conservative as described in this thread.

So yeah, it exists in the setting, and probably isn't talked about much in the Empire. I'd say it's fine to play a gay or bi character, but they should expect to keep it pretty ell under their hats in public.

Fatebreaker
2012-07-01, 10:31 PM
Honestly? Deviancy is resolved through compassionate rehabilitation.

Fire is both compassionate and well-known for its rehabilitative qualities.

If you're discreet (and a noble), you have more flexibility (though literal flexibility is also available as Slaanesh's Discount Mutati--er, Blessings!), because, hey, nobility.

It is well worth remembering, when debating the tolerance issue, that in the Warhammer World, tolerating certain behaviors leads to the literal breakdown of reality in favor of a hellsplosion of daemons and teeth and ichor and tentacles and time flowing sideways and cats becoming gravity and all sorts of wacky hijinks. Even if some people (the poor, misguided fools...) are willing to be tolerant, the relevant folks who are not on board the tolerance train are also both able and willing to kill most anyone who violates their ideas of acceptable behavior.

That may not be the kind of story your player wants to be a part of. If that's not the setting you want to play in, you may want to consider another setting rather than trying to tweak the Warhammer one, because so much rides on the simple concept that ideas really do have power.

Alternatively, your LGBT player/character may enjoy the idea of inevitably being found out, and then having to contend with the Good Guys as well as the Bad Guys -- 'cause, really, another huge theme of the Warhammer World is that everyone is a bad guy, just in different ways.

Either way, good luck!