Having difficulty scaling my encounters.

[killem2]

So I am in the age of worms campaign. We are almost finished with the Whispering Cairn, and will be going into the final resting place, we killed the wind warriors, and soon will confront Filge.

My issue is, I started this campaign, after I already got them, into a small adventure of my own, a dungeon, that left them at level 4 and some change, and a ship ride that took two weeks, and caused them to get to level 5.

Well, we enter the whispering cairn at with 6 level 5s, a flesh raker animal companion, a wild cohort wolf, a swindlespitter animal companion, a riding dog, and a bear that was reared as a cub and is (due to a funky system we homebrewed up) a medium critter, with stats between a wolf/flesh raker. not nearly as agressive and potent, but has a few d4 attacks. Eventually it'll get to be the same as the monster manual version.

Anyway, when we complete this dungeon, They thrashed everything I had thrown at them, and that with the adjustments they suggested in the little "scaling the dungeon" side bar things, and even with my own additions. Like if they said to add an extra this or that, I would add one more extra of this or that, and then ramp up the HD to as high as I could.

The Wind Warriors at the end were both 18HD creatures, and through just bad rolls, we taken down. I guess I could have just sat there and floated over the darkness and sonic blast them until they all died, but I didn't want to cheese out the entire fight.

So here we come to Filge....

There are a few different encounters but clearly they were meant for a low level party probably at this point level 2s or 3s and only 3-4 people. We have almost TWICE this many bodies, and though you are not suppose to count animal companions and animal cohorts, and handle animal things, I'm finding it increasingly more difficult to ignore them in the course of building encounters.

See, at first, I was a nice dm, a kind dm, one that would make challenges interesting, and fun, and I stilll want to do that, but it's time for them to actually face CHALLENGES. I read in the DMG you should use up about 10-15% or something of their resources with each battle, but they just keep on trucking.

As I'm mentioned in another thread, we got a ranger, a cleric, a rogue, 2x barbarians, and a fighter, and as above 5 other animals. I joke alot that they have a zoo. This is all well and good.

Anyway, onto Filge, the due has a small observatory, that has some undead here and there. As default it is:

1 Tomb Mote
3 Skeletons with cross bows (plain jane ones from the MM)
9 useless zombies that are only there for a magical show, they don't fight
then the boss which is:

A level 3 Wizard (Necromancer)
He has 4 zombies in tanks that will break out on his command, 3x trogs and a bugbear.
He has a plain jane skeleton who walks with him.

Now here are the potential changes I am thinking of doing:

4x tomb motes, all max hd possible, as they find the one in a broom closet 5x5, I figured why not 4, they can fit right?

Now the skeletons are going to be absolute pushovers, this I know, so they only thing I could think of, because this observatory is soooo damn small, that I would give them poison bolts with Purple Worm Poison. Most of my group is fighter based, so fort saves are pretty hard to beat.



The on the boss, I have him set up as a 7th level focused specalist wizard that takes spell focus, and greater spell focus. he has aburation and trans banned according to the module. But the room it self, is lik maybe 35x35? and his work area is in a 5ft stepped in part that you take stairs to get to.

I originally attempted to use ogre zombies or miniotaur zombies, while keeping the wizard at like a level 4 or 5, it was just so crowed it was impossible.

Maybe I'm just over looking some tools a dm could use, but the cr ratings and what should be powerful and what actually IS powerful is really messing with this module, at least until the module finally catches up to the players level, which I fear won't be until maybe another 2 magazines.

[ThiagoMartell]

Your party has action economy on it's side. Just throw more stuff at them. You're simply not throwing enough yet.

[hoverfrog]

I agree with ThiagoMartell, just add some encounters to wear them down a bit first. A wandering monster, guards at the door, a trap or two, that kind of thing. Maybe swap out the useless zombies for something tougher like ghouls.

[Gwendol]

Force them to spread their attacks; under focused fire most opponents will go down in no time.

[CTrees]

Zombies? Make them ghouls or wights, and have them fight.
Tomb motes? Buff them and increase numbers.
Skeletons? Evolved Undead Skeletal Champions, or Revived Fossil versions, etc. You can easily fit both form and function with the right selections.
The boss? Levels, levels, levels, pre-buffing, and battlefield control. Party is mostly melee? Solid Fog.

[Kudaku]

Your party has a grand total of 10 members counting the animal companions, and especially the fleshraker and the swindlespitter makes me think that some of your players have been reading class guides.

Like other players have mentioned, with that many attacks per round they can focus fire down most things if you let them - so don't! You don't necessarily have to make each monster significantly stronger but add in a lot more of them. For bonus points you can even add in some monsters that would appeal to the strong points of the PCs to make them shine a bit more - caster for the monk to grapple, goblin hordes for the wizard to fireball and so on.

[Ingus]

I've faced this problem more than once in my campaigns.
In my experience, if you buff too much the strong part of the encounter, you risk to make it irrelevant none the less or, worst, to pump it too much, risking a TPK.

A 6 PC party with 4 animal companions suggest to add a bit more henchmen and eventually improve them. If they're optimized, you can also double the threat: you have a CR4 and 4CR 1? Make them two CR4 with different abilities and 8/10 CR1.

[hoverfrog]

If the problem is that they focus one one enemy to wipe it out quickly then there are a few things that you can do to help with that. At low level there are a number of illusions that can misdirect attacks so that they are wasted. Hauntings are fun to throw against people and there are also tactics that enemy fighters can use to force the party to fight on several fronts. A couple of medium level fighters with Improved Trip, some monks with Stunning Fist, a full charge through the party lines by numerically superior opponents to surround them, a rogue using tumble and sneak attacks, these all spring to mind.

Have you considered sending a ranger or a druid against them? All those animals aren't automatons, they are subject to influence just like any other living creature.

[Flickerdart]

Narrow hallways.

[killem2]

Thanks for the replies, there is a future altercation that will have a ranger in it.

I think the boss fight will go down pretty well, with a couple well place fear spells.

I'll look into the wights. Are there any other references for medium sized humanoid undead? I'd be willing to throw large/huge if the damn room wasn't so small. lol

[Bloodgruve]

Are you making them Handle Animal (http://www.35privatesanctuary.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=412:ps0190-party-animals-crunch&catid=13:35-private-sanctuary&Itemid=33) correctly (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/handleAnimal.htm)? How did the non-rangers get all these animal companions?

I believe you have to command your companion to initiate tasks like 'sit' or 'attack' using skills. There is a chance that some of these companions may do nothing and PC will need to spend actions getting them moving.

I like to allow PC's to do explore their character options but I'm just not a fan of animal companions/Leadership/followers and even Summons unless handled correctly.

GL
Blood~

[Tim Proctor]

Since there are a lot of them use AoE traps and Mobs to force the Cleric to use a lot of his spells.

Its a big party of level 5 people, a Fireball trap will do a lot of damage in a Dungeon. If the Rogue is going first and searching for traps I'd suggest the fireball trap, he'll make the Reflex but it is hard to spot and the AoE will splash onto the rest of the team.

Fireball Trap
CR 5; magic device; touch trigger; automatic reset; spell effect (fireball, 8th-level wizard, 8d6 fire, DC 14 Reflex save half damage); Search DC 28; Disable Device DC 28. Cost: 12,000 gp, 960 XP.

They should only take 1/2 damage but if 6-9 people take 4d6 damage it'll make the Cleric use some of his spells.

I'd then follow up with a good old;

Pit Trap
CR 5; mechanical, location trigger; manual reset; DC 20 Reflex save avoids; 100 ft. deep (10d6, fall); Search DC 20; Disable Device DC 20. Market Price: 5,000 gp.

In the same room as the Skeletons. Have one square smack in the middle of the room deploy ,it. I'd also have the trap take up all but 5ft around the edges of the room, so that they have to go in single file while getting shot at by the skeletons. They should easily overcome this but it will take healing, spells and arrows.

Since the boss is an Necromancer I would have all of his level 3 spells end up as Vampiric Touch, this will keep from dying super easily, hits hard as nails 7d6 on a touch attack.

Shroud of Undeath is a great one for him to use prior to combat Shroud of Undeath allows him to be healed by negative energy and inflict spells, in which cause you can use Negative Energy Burst for a hit everyone in the room and heal him some. It only does 1d8+7 but to the entire group and healing him makes it somewhat decent.

Thin Air is another one that would be good to cast before Combat, it will make it so that a portion of the group will be hindered.

Those are all straight Necromancy Spells which will fit the theme. Its too bad that Abjuration isn't allowed cause I would have Explosive Runes cast on all sorts of signs in the dungeon.

If you don't want him to be extremely necromancy focused, Resonating Bolt is a great one because it'll destroy a lot of the gear 7d4 damage will break most mundane weapons and light shields. Most importantly all the mundane arrows with a hardness of 5 and HP of 5 are broken, and other such. It shouldn't have much effect on the magical gear because the increased hardness but it should force them to fight at a hindered capacity.

Then there is the ever present Lightning Bolt and Fireball also, they do lots of damage and hit multiple targets.

Also make sure that the boss had his action readied to shoot at them as soon as they walk in the room, he should get a free spell on them. I'd also look at putting a trap in the room with him, since they are high in Fort I'd let them be able to make the save against this one like a

Phantasmal Killer Trap
CR 5; magic device; proximity trigger (alarm covering the entire room); automatic reset; spell effect (phantasmal killer, 7th-level wizard, DC 16 Will save for disbelief and DC 16 Fort save for partial effect); Search DC 29; Disable Device DC 29. Cost: 14,000 gp, 1,120 XP.

They still take some damage like 3d6 which will be enough to annoy them.

[killem2]

Are you making them Handle Animal (http://www.35privatesanctuary.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=412:ps0190-party-animals-crunch&catid=13:35-private-sanctuary&Itemid=33) correctly? How did the non-rangers get all these animal companions?

I believe you have to command your companion to initiate tasks like 'sit' or 'attack' using skills. There is a chance that some of these companions may do nothing and PC will need to spend actions getting them moving.

I like to allow PC's to do explore their character options but I'm just not a fan of animal companions/Leadership/followers and even Summons unless handled correctly.

GL
Blood~


One is a ranger, with swindle spitter.

One is a fighter, who reared a newborn bear cub when they were all level 2.

The fighter also had bought a riding dog early on, but then gave it to our Barbarian.

Due to a mistake of my own, I mis read the requirements for Beastmaster after they had took it, they were off 1 skill point in handle animal, they had everything else. So I allowed it, but and they'll make up the skill points next level. So they have a flesh raker, riding dog, and a wolf from wild cohort.

I dont make him roll anymore on standard attacks since his bonus is so high for handle animal that it always succeeds.


As far as being too far into necromancy, i think he can go as deep as possible, the description of him makes him sound like a nut job who loves dealing with the dead.

He even shows a skill Profession (Mortician) +6 lol.

[Blind Orc]

One is a ranger, with swindle spitter.

One is a fighter, who reared a newborn bear cub when they were all level 2.

The fighter also had bought a riding dog early on, but then gave it to our Barbarian.

Due to a mistake of my own, I mis read the requirements for Beastmaster after they had took it, they were off 1 skill point in handle animal, they had everything else. So I allowed it, but and they'll make up the skill points next level. So they have a flesh raker, riding dog, and a wolf from wild cohort.

I dont make him roll anymore on standard attacks since his bonus is so high for handle animal that it always succeeds.


As far as being too far into necromancy, i think he can go as deep as possible, the description of him makes him sound like a nut job who loves dealing with the dead.

He even shows a skill Profession (Mortician) +6 lol.

I don't think handling an animal is a free action, if you are not druid

[Downysole]

If the critters are a problem, Sleep and Deeper Slumber are spells that could put them out of the picture, but not cause your party to rebel. In fact, I would put Deeper Slumber at a higher priority than Vampiric Touch for at least one of those slots.

Also, the mage-undead from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (Deathlocks?) are kinda funny to have in lieu of standard issue skeletons. They have enough magic missiles per day to fire them off every round until they get killed or bypassed. But they still have about the same CR. You don't have to concentrate fire, but have them target the one that looks like a mage and you'll get the weakest person having to cover and it might even balance the encounter.

But to be clear, you still want the PCs to win.

[killem2]

I don't think handling an animal is a free action, if you are not druid

You know, this might be where I am going wrong.

I will ask in the simple rules area! Thanks for this, it may be the game changer i was looking for!

[Tim Proctor]

Handle an Animal
This task involves commanding an animal to perform a task or trick that it knows. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.

“Push” an Animal
To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing. This category also covers making an animal perform a forced march or forcing it to hustle for more than 1 hour between sleep cycles. If the animal is wounded or has taken any nonlethal damage or ability score damage, the DC increases by 2. If your check succeeds, the animal performs the task or trick on its next action.

[killem2]

Yeah I saw those, I just have not seen where it is treated as a standard/move/free action or whatever. never even occured to me. :smallredface:

[Bloodgruve]

Per SRD

Varies. Handling an animal is a move action, while pushing an animal is a full-round action. (A druid or ranger can handle her animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action.)

Also

Attack (DC 20): The animal attacks apparent enemies. You may point to a particular creature that you wish the animal to attack, and it will comply if able. Normally, an animal will attack only humanoids, monstrous humanoids, giants, or other animals. Teaching an animal to attack all creatures (including such unnatural creatures as undead and aberrations) counts as two tricks.

Are these animals trained to attack everything? If not you have full round actions to push them to attack stuff like undead.

Blood~

[killem2]

No, but I will be informing everyone next session about these.

[Sudain]

Another trick you can use is to give all the baddies a quickened abilty. Inflict wounds or sheild other, or ghoul touch. Something; anything. It doesn't help being focused down but it should help even the action economy.

[killem2]

Alright how is this:

I think I am going to replace the bosses 4 plain zombies with 4x 6-12 HD Plague Blights from libris mortis. They are medium, they fit perfect with the history of age of worms, the plague called The Red Death. They are also quite nasty little undead, they come with a slew of hit points, the usual undead traits, a nasty nasty disease but my favorite trait of all.. resistance to blows so they only take 1/2 damage from physical blows BEFORE damage reduction :D.

They also put off a nasty stench at will that causes STR damage.

With such a tight fighting area, they will be saving almost every round sure its fort save but it only takes a couple of these to make a difference.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Alright how is this:

I think I am going to replace the bosses 4 plain zombies with 4x 6-12 HD Plague Blights from libris mortis. They are medium, they fit perfect with the history of age of worms, the plague called The Red Death. They are also quite nasty little undead, they come with a slew of hit points, the usual undead traits, a nasty nasty disease but my favorite trait of all.. resistance to blows so they only take 1/2 damage from physical blows BEFORE damage reduction :D.

They also put off a nasty stench at will that causes STR damage.

With such a tight fighting area, they will be saving almost every round sure its fort save but it only takes a couple of these to make a difference.

Excellent find, there. Make them Spellstitched (CAr) for additional fun.

[aeauseth]

Terrain can make a huge difference in a fight. I once had a pit trap on a set of stairs and a lich at the bottom in a room. The pit trap had illusionary stairs and there was an illusionary door on the room. Thief missed the trap, made him roll search but I watched his dice roll and substituted will. He fell into the pit, but rest of party saw the stair give way and fall into the pit (gotta love illusions). At that point the litch started lobbing AOE's and messed the party up a bit. They charged the door (not understanding where the fireball came from), two more fell into the pit. Eventually they all realized it was an illusion. One guy flew to the door and successfully bashed it open with a STR check (really a WILL DC) to find the lich. By this time the lich has cast 4-5 AOE spells and the party was hurting badly. 3 of the party members were stuck in a pit, 4th was lowering a rope to get them out, other 2 were fighting lich.

I had planned to but shadows in the pit, but there was no need, fight was difficult enough.

As a DM always plan to have a BIG fight, start with 2-3 foes, and add a few more if the party is having an easy go at it. The good old cliche of the side door opens and 4 more foes join the fight 1 round later. Simplist is just to add more of whatever you had prepared.

[Fitz10019]

That bear should not be a functional melee participant until the player 'rearing' him takes the wild cohort feat. Rearing the bear is just RP fluff for how he got a bear. It does not entitle him to a furry battle pawn.

As said, the attack undead/aberrations = 2 skill tricks factor is important, too. As you read up on Handle Animal, check out the Complete Adventurer's 'expanded' description of Handle Animal for other tricks.

Also, all cohorts are NPCs. The PCs can tell them to attack, but as DM you should decide their movements and choices. Of those animals you mentioned, only a wolf would instinctively seek a flanking position. All the others should charge the nearest foe head on and stand there fighting until it's dead. Aside from the action economy, you might be giving away a lot of tactical positioning. Animals are more likely to foul up a charging lane than they are to provide flanking.

Any enemy that knows this party should use Hide from Animals. What will an animal do when you give the 'attack' command and there is no enemy? In my opinion, it would think this is a training session, and would non-lethally attack whoever normally spares with it in training.

Can you tell us what tricks each of these critters officially are trained to do? If you've been hand-waving that, you should probably tighten up. Establish what the animals are trained to do, and how, when, and by whom they are trained to do it.

[killem2]

That bear should not be a functional melee participant until the player 'rearing' him takes the wild cohort feat. Rearing the bear is just RP fluff for how he got a bear. It does not entitle him to a furry battle pawn.

As said, the attack undead/aberrations = 2 skill tricks factor is important, too. As you read up on Handle Animal, check out the Complete Adventurer's 'expanded' description of Handle Animal for other tricks.

Also, all cohorts are NPCs. The PCs can tell them to attack, but as DM you should decide their movements and choices. Of those animals you mentioned, only a wolf would instinctively seek a flanking position. All the others should charge the nearest foe head on and stand there fighting until it's dead. Aside from the action economy, you might be giving away a lot of tactical positioning. Animals are more likely to foul up a charging lane than they are to provide flanking.

Any enemy that knows this party should use Hide from Animals. What will an animal do when you give the 'attack' command and there is no enemy? In my opinion, it would think this is a training session, and would non-lethally attack whoever normally spares with it in training.

Can you tell us what tricks each of these critters officially are trained to do? If you've been hand-waving that, you should probably tighten up. Establish what the animals are trained to do, and how, when, and by whom they are trained to do it.


I can look them up tonight. I'm not sure I agree with the concept of having a wild cohort to use an animal you reared. RAW doesn't indicate that you need wild cohort for handle animal rearing, only that if you have wild cohort they scale similar to a druid or ranger's companion scales. However a primary bonus would, getting to use it as a free action.

I always thought that if you reared the animal you controlled it, but apparently I might have misunderstood this. I think the biggest problem started at level 1 when I let one of them buy a riding dog. I was a new dm at that time, didn't full understand everything about handle animal.

From reading the handle animal handbook, only the druid, ranger, wild cohort animal companions can be skill checked as free actions. I would rule that if a wizard exchanges his familiar for one and any beast master animal companions, that they too should get free actions. But I would of course only allow one free action like that a turn, unless that player burns a fullround action to move two animals.

So the issue is the riding dog and this bear cub. I recently figured out how to scale monsters properly with monster manual and how their base attack bonus works. I homebrewed up an age chart for this little cub, but I don't think I'll need to anymore.

At first it was just based on age, but I think I will make it based on experience. Maybe it isn't the most accurate way to portray an animal growing up, but its the only way I can really see it working. Besides, once that bear grows to full size, I'm not sure if the owner will appreciate it in dungeons lol.

I will bring up the wild co hort feat.